Transcripts For CSPAN3 David 20240703

He spent 15 years immersed in Brent Cummings his world to create an intimate acutely observed and beautifully written portrait of his life, community, thoughts and feelings as as america became more and more divided, his book is an American Dreamer. This is the new book. And people like geraldine writes in a lovely atlanta suburb to neighbors both decent yet damaged men find themselves on opposite sides of the line in a fracturing david finkel account is poetic, profound and irresistible ably page turning its white album for a new decade of division and dissolution. David finkel is an editor and writer at the Washington Post he won a pulitzer. Also, hes a macarthur fellow recipient. His author, the author of two really, really great books, which i think theyll talk about tonight as well. Thank you for your service and the good soldiers now. Now, Dave Lawrence to all of us here needs. No introduction at all. But since this is on cspan, i think ill let some of the others out there get to know dave as. Dave David Lawrence junior is among the countrys best known journalists. He retired at the early age of 56, but he really retire. We all know that, right . He basically has become an incredibly an incredible for children, especially focusing on the crucial Early Learning years as he was at the miami herald the Detroit Free Press and. Now he chairs the childrens movement of florida. Hes got 13 honorary doctorates. Hes chaired the local. He made he chaired the local arrangements, the 1994 summit of the americas. And he cofounded a vocational technical in haiti. He and his wife, roberta, are live here in coral gables. Were so happy to have robby with us today. Lets give her a big round of applause as well well. So for those of you out there in cspan land, you need to find this book. Its a remarkable book. Its called the dedicated life journalism. Journalism justice and a chance for every child. And dave, this is his memoir and it is memoir that you wont forget. So please welcome both Dave Lawrence and. Thank you for having. That promotion. And one thing i forgot to mention anything, though, this is my dying. So were glad to be here. Thank you for being here. Im going begin with a quotation. Some of you read david in the New York Times who i think writes a very thoughtful column. And to sort of set the scene, im going to read from a book he just wrote, which is called how know a person quote there is no way to hard conversations on hard. You can never fully a person whose Life Experience is very different from your own. I will never. He writes what it is like to be black to be a woman, to be gen z, to be born with a disability, to be a working class man, to be a new immigrant or a person from any of a myriad of other. There are mysterious depths, each person, he writes. There are vast differences between different cultures before which we need to stand with respect and to be aware. Nevertheless, i have found that if you work on your capacity to see and hear others, you really get a sense of another persons. And i found that it is quite possible to turn into trust and to build mutual respect. I start. With enthusiasm to tell you. I love this book. I read it in an early form. But i set my final form couple three months ago. Its called an American Dreamer life a divided country. And geraldine books brooks. And you may have read her work. She wrote horse and other good books wrote in a lovely atlanta suburb. Two neighbors, both decent but damaged men, find themselves on opposite sides of the fault line in a fracturing america. So i didnt know that david written other books, too. In fact, and i read both of them there. Theyre up here. One is called the good soldiers, and its about this pulitzer winning newspaper man in iraq in 2007 for the of the surge that the second president bush had ordered. And youll remember, we in deep trouble in iraq. Things were getting worse and worse. More and more people hurt or dead. And david was embedded. What does that mean . He was embedded for a year and had the full run. Could quote anybody and made david particularly good for this. In my estimation, he has a stunt ing amount of empathy. We talk about a lot. This is a guy with deep empathy and then he writes, he comes back from the war he had seen all sorts things war no longer simply people with rifles and grenades. This is not already in World War Two. Its a war ideas and youre traveling along and all a sudden under the dirt, an ied is exploded and your face may be blown off. Literally. And you may end up as a quadriplegic. You. These are 90 year old boys, men much you many of them. Theyre not long out of high school. They believe deeply the mission. And then writes a few years later a book called thank you for your service which is what you and i often say because we dont what else to say. The next book, that book is about the consequences of the first book back in the war. The consequences are physical and medical, and that was the aftermath. Four brave young men who went into the war with all sorts of enthused chasm, with many, of them returning with grievous wounds, both and medical. And it gives a much deeper sense of what war is all about. So david and i. I like this guy. Interesting. Actively and since the first time we talked a while back, we have a lot of things in common. We have a wife and children and grandchildren. He lives in silver spring, maryland, where bobby and i and our first two children lived. We are both graduates in journalism from the university of florida. He spent formative years, as i at the St Petersburg times. I worked at the Washington Post and he still does. Neither of us can figure how retirement would work. We both saw oppenheimer. We both like the netflix show the bear. We love to read good books and we loved the best of journalism and we both worry about the status and the state of journalism. Today. We both, more than anything, worry about our republic. Ive never been more worried in my whole life, and ill be 82 shortly. He reports and writes so well he is better at both than i will be, but i do no good and reporting. And is as good an example of that as i know. And wouldnt be a great idea in these United States of america that we one year all of us as many of grown up 335 million americans could muster. Maybe we ought to read one book together and follow that with real conversations. Wed be a better people for that. An American Dreamer could be exactly that book. There are two central characters in the. One is a man named Michael Owens. Hes a quadruple. Tragic. Didnt happen in war. He fell out of a tree 60 feet down. He was trying to cut the tree parrot back back and is lucky that he is alive and in some ways painfully unlucky in many ways. Hes a wheelchair. So you might say he is confined. But in greater sense of the word confined, this is not confined. He is a fierce believer in donald trump and. He would tell you, quote, everything that comes of his mouth has been right and he is only one out there trying to protect american values. Hes his third marriage and a good one with his wife and but his estranged from a daughter and has been for many years from an earlier marriage. And then you would meet a colonel named Brent Cummings and you would see him in the first book where is the second in command of a battalion of about 800 soldiers . During that surge in iraq. 2007, he is a career officer. He saw the cast of tution as his Guiding Force and came to believe that Donald Trumps alleged u. S. Forces were elsewhere. He saw in those soldiers, all those 19 year olds and 20 year old and 21 year olds, he saw the promise of a great number of them, lives snuffed out before. They could have lived like we hear can have. And now, as the book starts hes living an atlanta suburb suburb. The war is still in bedded in his dreams. And while he was not physically wounded. His dreams are full of screams. He has a wife, laura, and they clearly love each other and he has daughters. One of them is a student in college and doing quite well. Her name is emily and she has a younger she has a younger sister. Her name is meredith with downs syndrome. Both of these men are in their fifties. Both were born in the old south. They both love dogs and shooting guns. And both of them have in their souls. They live exactly next door to one another. David finkel writes, the houses were a few feet apart, and yet the span of those few feet was an american that felt wide as the american country. But they did talk. They did each other. It wasnt easy. They each tried to listen. Neither could convert the other. And in their wisdom, they ultimately did not. And surely all these stories and in this fine are lessons for all of us. And so david is, going to start with an from the book. David okay. Hi. And thank you for coming and thank you, dave. Youre quite i will read an excerpt before i do just a quick set up to elaborate just slightly on on what they was talking about. I met Brent Cummings in 2007 when the army he was with was was part of the surge. And i lived next to brant actually for, for the year i was with these guys. What i saw in brant was someone who was wrestling with the tactics war the strategy of war, but also the morality of war. He was he was a good soldier. He was a good human being. And if you fast forward ten years later and the country in 2016 seemed to be moving toward moment of a moral reckoning. And i wanted to write about it, find a way to write about it. I decided to write about brents life because he said me one day. I feel like ive survived one war only to find myself into another one. This time in United States. And that intrigued. So built this book around him and its a book if you read it, its like see youll see as weve experienced one of the print may have been a soldier but but hes very hes not a them hes us. Which is another reason i like writing about him. I think we can all see versions of ourselves in the way brant has been trying to navigate a very tough period in American History. There were conflicts everywhere in the most banal prosaic places at costco at the grocery store. And one day in the driveway where michael was outside and brant was on his porch just trying to figure out how to get carpenter bee out of his porch. And he was taking it out when he heard michael call. Hey, colonel. Hey, neighbor. He called back, still on his stomach. Im trying to get this carpet to be. And then he stood up because hadnt talked to michael much at all since been home. He leaned against the porch railing. He had his new puppy with him. Another black to replace tucker. This one named finn. Michael had his dog scout, pass me a small 11 year old. They talked about dogs for a bit. And at some point, michael said, im glad our governor is getting things. This is during pandemic, by the way. Yeah im just frustrated at the national level, brant said. What do you mean . Michael asked. And was when . For the first time in all of their conversations over the years, brant decided to Say Something about donald trump before his retirement from army. He never would have done such a thing. He had been taught over and over that soldiers werent supposed to voice Public Opinions about their commander in chief not unless there was something going on that was illegal, unethical or immoral, that the standard. It wasnt blind, but necessary respectfulness. Soldiers follow orders after all. But since retiring, he had slowly begun to speak loud about things getting used to the idea of free expression, or at least freer expression. And now referring to what trump been saying about the growing pandemic. He said to michael, he really lost big when he said, i take no responsibility. What do you mean, michael . Asked again. Maybe little sharper. And for the next hour things took off from there, leaving everyone with their own differing. Memories of what happened. Laura, brents wife, for instance, would remember going inside to do a puzzle and thinking, shut up, stop talking. Michael would remember saying to brant, colonel, lets understand each other about something. I hate everything. Liberal. And brant replied, i hear you. I want this to be clear. I am a trump supporter. Im a hard core conservative and far right. I believe in the bible and the Us Constitution as they written. I understand it. And brentwood. I remember saying, michael, i was very in the president , but not surprised. Hes not a good leader. A leader. Full responsibility and then went further. He lies. He lies to us every day. When is he ever that . Michael asked. So brant started listing the lives. Well all politicians lie, but all dont lie all the time. Thats what he does. He lies all time, brant said, and listed more examples. I hadnt heard that, michael said. I havent seen that. I havent seen any of that. Brant began mentioning sources, and michael pushed back, saying those sources were the liars, not trump, that the Mainstream Media lied the time incessantly and deliberately. And the proof was that they never, never went after the left. Only the right. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that point said. But the larger point was that leaders should be held to the highest standards. And trump was violating that standard every day. I dont trust the man, brant said. I dont trust with your life. With my life, with any life on this street. And then added, hes unchristian. At least thats the way he would remember the conversation along with the growing sense that were getting heated and that if they kept going they were to cross a line that would be difficult back. He tried to bring things to a cooler level. Im just frustrated, he said. I do want to rally around our flag. I do. To support our president here. Colonel, i respect you, michael said. Well, i really enjoyed talking, brant said. Got to get back to the bs. He liked michael. He admired him. And he liked having this is a neighbor. But this now felt different until that conversation, brant hadnt realized how devoted michael was to trump, and he help but wonder whether that devotion would be returned. What would trump of michael . What if michael were to the oval office and he went in not walking, but wheeling himself in his chair, would trump take imperfect hand and shake it . What do you make of afterward . Like he mocked other people he fell from a tree. Winters dont fall. Trees. Losers fall from. It was easier for to imagine what trump would think of him. Im the ideal white guy. Veteran. I would fit the American Dream for him. So what interesting about that interaction in terms of our conversation was this was the first time they crossed over into the they might have been having privately, but never between them. They went there and then they pulled back. And that is really an interesting thing to me that they didnt keep going. They pulled back and and i thought about that so much since because i think, i think theres a lesson in there, but im still trying to figure out what the lesson might, because on one hand, i think not going there to ignore the thing thats thats thats right there to be discussed. Its it it might be a form of willful ignorance that is that how you get by in these times by willful ignorance. But theres another interpretation they have so many things going on in lives. There are so many other things to be concerned with that they talk about, that they share that they like each other for. And so put this aside, all the name of getting along with each other and i, i dont quite know what the lesson is, but its a moment in reporting this book and its five years of reporting in this book, but then i return to offer. But dont wait to some degree do that in miami and silver maryland that. Pardon this but its sort of like the subject of abortion. Aint nobody to be converted on the subject. So end up not having a conversation and i know all sorts of people who think desperately differently than i on this subject. Im with the colonel myself. And the that otherwise ive got very good qualities and ive got other things to talk about and other things need to done in our community, in our country. So you sort of pass on it and maybe you send somebody article, but i dont have a lot of conversation about people feel that strongly about that person. So why dont the conversations work is is it because theyre not conversations necessarily just each side is attempting to persuade the other that im right. No, im right now heres my case now heres my case. There. I was reading something a few weeks ago. It was it was a it was a studied by pew Research Last year. Pretty good study. Think about 6000 respondents. And one of the findings was that Something Like percent of republic earns find them crats to be immoral and Something Like percent of democrats the same thing of republicans immoral. I disagree with them not unlikable immoral. And i was reading another study that this point of all the marriages going on 4 of marriages are between a democrat and a republican in this country. Its not interesting. Im a non Party Affiliate asian person, so but i mean, one of the i know what were going to solve tonight in the discussion, but except getting maybe people to or maybe its just things were already thinking but its its its its fraught its such a fraught time and and the divisions, as we know, are are deepening. It was so in you know, i like hanging around with michael. We spent a lot of time together. We would go long walks, rolls together and and it would be Early Morning and and be out rolling, trying to fit, trying to stay in shape, trying to stay alive. Five mile rolls as the came up and and hed just be praying and hed be thanking god his wife for and for. And you rented a home across. They live right next door to each other. And as you rent a home on the other side a way to get to know them but to get to know them so like hanging out with michael its its it was interesting the book came out and he read it. He he said to me, david, i dont know your politics. You dont lead on about yourself. Im willing to make some assumption. And i didnt correct him or it wasnt my place to. But he said, i thought you going to make fun of me . And he took seriously and and i appreciate that and that was thats an endorsement of the kind of journalism think you and i believe in. I spent a lot of time with print and and watching i mean this guy almost died so many times for this country so so us but he has a special as a guide through these times i think because he put it on the line and now hes trying to figure out what is the right way to be an american what is this country. Theres a line in the book theres a line in the book save with something 14 months in iraq, 28 years in the army, all in the name of defending the country. And now he wasnt defending it anymore. He was in it in time to watch it unravel. And thats what he was dealing with over this four year period. I watched. Its the same thing were all dealing with. And in his example well i find myself edging into conversation sometimes people where there is a basic core difference and and i use the example of what i following him in how be more mature in my conversations. Well it struck me reading all three books and focused on the last one that these two people had real humanity in their souls. There are a lot of good things about each of them. You tell a story and. One of the three books, maybe the first book when youre embedded in that battalion and theres a man essentially in a cesspool. Right. Tell folks that story because think it speaks fully to humanity. Well, this is this is when i really began wanting to spend a lot of time around Brent Cummings this was 27. And the first time i really spent time with them, there was a mission to move maybe 100 a company of men outside of this base. They were on into an even place closer to the population of of a i shouldnt say , but it was i dont buy this apologies. Okay a place called leo and they had to move a couple guys there and they found this abandoned spaghetti factory and they thought itd be a pretty good place to move these guys. And there was one problem when when up there went up there one day with another officer, they were going through it. And in the courtyard there was a there was kind of a manhole cover, a lid, and they lifted up and inside was a bunch of sewage water, a bunch of crew water and and in the pool water was was a it was a dead iraqi. And before they could move, it became brents problem. How do we get this guy out here . Because we cant put a company of soldiers in a place where a body floating this water and and so here is war about this absurd is it can seem almost a dark comedy heres this floating body kind of drifting in and out of sight and and brant saying we need to this seriously because was somebodys son and he might have been somebodys husband and he might have been somebodys father. And it was my body in there. I would want people to respect me. We have to figure out how to remove this body because were not human. Otherwise, were not human. I thought, man, this this this is this is an interesting dude. And and and and thats how he behaved through war and and beyond in all the years ive known him so youve for newspapers for four plus decades. You were in the golden era journalism newspapers. Even if you and i didnt realize it at the time, its true. And that is true. And now newspapers to a large degree, have been shredded, although the Washington Post even after cutbacks, has a thousand people in the newsroom. Yes. And so can still do great things. The the post the journal times have enormous resource sense, but youd be hard placed hard put to find others with those kind of resources. And we have the advent social media and you can bet your Bottom Dollar folks like Michael Owens are getting a good deal of information from that. Whats your sense of where we are in the journalism media world now, trust for journalism. What do you see . Good. What worries you. Im im terrible this question because im just going to talk narrowly about the kind of journalism that i learned from the miami herald from same few times from the Washington Post a kind of journalism that the post Still Believes this kind of immersive journalism where you you go if you know what they say, its the kind of journalism in this book as well. And theres theres a scene i want to read that i think will well get to the point give sometimes i take a while getting to the point its a its its a kind of journalism where the story most journalism the story has happened and you go do interviews and you compile that story you tell story of the thing that happened. But this of journalism that the post supports and again that i at the herald i learned at the same few times the story hasnt happened yet but theres an interesting moment there with an interesting person moving into this moment and then you just kind of go and hang out and see what happens and the story develops and that that was the underpinnings of all three books, including an American Dreamer, very much because because when brentwood was talking about i feel like im moving it to another war. Here we are in 2016. The book basically tracks from 2016 through the 2020 election and inauguration. What happens in there. And again, this is a long to question a kind of journalism that i think i helps us understand things. If we read because because if i do a good job in these books, whats going to is just for a minute, youre going to youre going to feel like youre not reading book. Youre going to be transported into something occurring in a very important hidden place that is being excavate added. And youre reading it and being transported and that do you mind if i read. More excerpts. Oh please do forgive me but but i really the question and i want to make i do a good job answering it because this will give you i think a sense of what this this this great was feeling as to moved into 2017 and then 18 and 19 and and election of 2020 was getting closer and closer might i say a period that were about to enter once again and i think theres relevance in that. The scene is this. And again, it just comes from the journalists of of being theyre not even asking questions, just seeing what happens and how it might be relatable. You as a reader, everything was fraying. Thats what it felt like to brant. He watched a clump, a of a trump rally in wisconsin. Were going to win four more years, trump said. Four more years four more years the crowd chanted. And then after that, well go for another four. And as the crowd cheered, brant thought, why are they cheering . Have these people read the constitution ever he watched clips of windows being smashed and fires being set in downtown atlanta after another Police Shooting of black matter demonstrators surrounding some people eating outside a restaurant in washington, dc and tried to intimidate them into raising fists in solidarity. He went with laura to costco, where worker approached a woman with a dangling mask and told her that because of covid, she needed to pull the mask up over her mouth and nose. I dont your demeanor, the woman said. Sorry, its just a policy. The workers. Well, this is ridiculous. The woman raising her voice. How am i supposed to drink, buy water with a mask on . She yanked up her mask, raised the bottle of water she was holding poured it over her mask and clothing and yelled, is this what you want . We cannot have four more years, laura said on a day when trump was sending out another barrage of tweets 41 in all America First slow joe. Make America Great again. I really want someone to tell him that for every all caps tweet he sends out he will lose a thousand heartbeats. Laura said it was nighttime. Now it started to rain and brant went out on to his front porch all during his time in iraq, hed held on to a vision of what be waiting for him after the war. And the porch was always part of the deal, along with his dog, a beer and a rainstorm. Yes, it was sentimental, but to a man who had been scared and often lonesome and wore it, it seemed a version of life worth defending. If only things had worked that way. He called of his old soldiers. Hey, man how are you . Its brant hacer soldier said a little thunderstorm going on here, brant said, in case the soldier was hearing explosions. It was a big thunderstorm, but prince stayed on the porch anyway. The soldier wanted to know what life like after the army and they talked about the meaning of what they had done and the value of it. And then boom prince said, all that goes, you know, what am i going to do today . You know . So its just its just a weird, weird, anxious feeling. Or at least it was for me. Hey, sir. Thanks. The soldiers said. And at the end of the conversation, be safe, maam, brant said. And 10 minutes later he was still on the porch listening to the rain. Here came a car lighting up the road turning in the driveway next door and home from another of nursing. The broken. The garage door opened, the garage door closed, everything was dark again. More thunder. It was turning into one of those nights. He didnt want go to sleep because he knew the dream would be waiting. And the reason it would be waiting was because he was thinking now about what all of them had been through, including the day he almost died. The fuel truck, the day almost died when he was waiting for his laundry the day he almost died in the mortar attack that blew out his window, the day he almost died in the rocket attack that decapitated a contractor the day he almost died in another attack when the chaplain was, in the midst of giving him a haircut, the day he almost died when a roadside bomb exploded just after his humvee had passed where the bomb had been buried, the day he almost died, which had been every day, 14 months in iraq, 28 years in the army, all in the name of defending democracy. And now he wasnt defending it. He was in it just in time to feel it on arrival. So so, so and so. I mean, i im partial to the passage anyway, but i think if it works and again, for the conversation were having, what can happen in a kind of witnessing and writing like can bring you all a place where you havent been and it it helps guide you into conversations that were all having. I dont quite know how that, but as corny as the sounds with the more we understand, maybe the better we can be in a conversation. You have a that its unraveling. Whats your sense of optimism about where we are in this republic . Can you see lessons in history the continuum in history that would help us understand . It seems to me that the. One of the great new factors is social and donald trump did talk about fake news and the truth to tell there is a lot of fake news and if you dont learn history in high school, if you dont know that hitler to power legally which you. Because the Business Community in berlin and other places says we can control these guys and hes better than the communists and ultimately 60 Million People are dead in World War Two are there of previous history that help us the 750,000 americans who died a country of 32 million from 1861 to 65. But we didnt have the weapons then that we have now. We didnt have the communication. We have now. Whats sense of optimism personally . Well, when one of i think if im a good journalist, one of the reasons is is because i, i keep my opinions out of work. Well, this is just among us. Its just us and cspan and, you know. Oh, and besides the other thing that makes me a pretty good journalist is, is people have told me this and and i dont take it as an insult often youre a pretty forgettable guy and so so i would rather answer the question from what ive learned this book from from princetons because brant does widely. Deeply he thinks he he knows history. He reads he thinks he watches different he watches hell watch fox or watch cnn. Watch msnbc. Hill. Hill he starts every day reading the bbc and listening to the bbc. So hes getting lots of stuff in. And i think that that is an opinion. If i say i think i he would agree with me that that makes him a a rather remarkable person that says, you know whats funny about print, its so easy to make assumptions about this guy. Right, because because he is you know, is youre talking about hes a hes a mrs. Shipley family. Right. So his family traces back to the confederacy drives up pretty good truck. Hes got his dog, he has his guns. He loves to he loves to hunt hunt. Somebody was telling me that in South Carolina primary that trump got 67 of the veteran vote. The assumption about is he would in that 67 just by everything you assume him but when you get to know him he and its the same for michael they exist in a really interesting place beyond and beyond assumptions. Theyve they both do and that was that was maybe thats a form of optimism for me that if you ask brant hes optimistic you know hes and this is some hard earned optimism man i mean all those things i was reading about all times he almost died there were more this was a bad deployment and along with everybody in that battalion he he he put it on the line doesnt ask anything for this what he wanted to do its its he volunteer for this he put it on the line and and i said the term fast earlier. Lets fast forward again to 2020 so now its election and and brents not in the army anymore but hes still somebody who i think like most of us certainly like you when i look at your life and certainly like me when i think of my life, were lucky enough that were not just scrambling for survival, that we actually get to think and and search for meaning in our lives, in. And brant is a version of that. And so hes not in the army anymore. Hes made the adjustment into retirement, the army, but hes still a guy looking for meaning, what does he matter . What he matter in this election day and he goes to vote and he loves to vote. He always does because because if you think about it, this is this is so cornball and im sorry, but this is like the purest thing we can do in a democracy. We can vote. And he and he felt really good when he came out of the booth that day and, you know, hes living in georgia, but doesnt matter. You could be anywhere in the country. And then you watch what happened over the next few weeks and months as even the vote became, it was turning into something that was being attacked a vote, a became something to doubt rather than to believe in and thats we are heading into this election. So all this sounds like a litany of reasons this guy should be depressed as, hell and pessimistic. But not. And i really do think it came from upbringing. His his his being raised to believe that if you lead a good life got a chance at and a better life. He believes that fiercely and and hes not giving up and you can see in every one of the interactions he does. Dave i have a feeling if i if i was writing a book about you, you would behave the same. He goes in not judging people, but with curiosity and and lots of questions and open to learning something new. Thats optimism. Im some people here ive heard this im as domestic and idealistic i was when i was ten years old. And sometimes its a bit naive. Yeah, but you get more done if you think they can be done. And henry ford, the first who was not a good human being, if you look at its history, once said if you think you can do a thing or think you cannot do a thing, you can and. So more good things. Brant, the colonels optimistic soul makes this a better place. Well, can i give you another example . Sure. So there was in the second book, one of the characters in that book was a a four star general named pecorella, a vice chair of the army vice chief of staff of the army. Im and one of the things he had to do in that job was convene a monthly meeting at the pentagon to discuss all the suicide ieds that had happened the previous month and would go over him 5 minutes at a time. Lessons learned Lessons Learned, Lessons Learned and. And they would sometimes lead to larger discussions about disability and about as one guy said, one day, you know, you know, sir there are a lot of people faking things. There are a lot of people faking things in order to get government funding. And shouldnt we be concerned with that . And chiarelli god, i love this guy for that. He said, yeah, i get it. I get it. Thats happening. We only have so many resources. So instead of spending time worrying about the few people who are trying to take advantage of us, why dont we spend our time thinking about the people who really need us . What a great answer. Oh, totally. And i write in there. And i think think brant has that for from reading your book youre full of that man. Its just its just its ive been accused of being for poor well youre about optimism and i maybe i maybe im i be laughing more and why did you go this seriously but but its its there. Its david why did you go into journalism . Was the same reason as here. Right . But were originally im kind of a broadcaster if i remember right. Originally i went into it because because because i was a forestry major. I was a forestry major because there was a really girl who was a forestry major. And then things didnt out with the girl. And then i was a forestry major at that. And then friend said, why dont you just come down and see the newspaper at the university of florida . The alligator and i went in there and there were all these kind of bright, weird people, and i thought, these are my people. I feel at home here and why do we go in it . You know, its somewhat quixotic first. At first, im sure i had this idea that if i doing journalism, i was going to save souls and change minds and, all that. And and then over time i realized that, no, thats thats really a foolish way to think of it, because i was that was insistent as if im going to change things. What my belief in journalism is that if i can tell you or anyone here a story that that that kind of pierces your thinking a little bit then thats thats all i want from it. Thats thats thats value. Well, what are the lessons for us in america from michael and brant. Oh can i flip this and you what do you think they are. Know you can. What do i think that was the lesson i got. They said whenever youre asking the question you want to answer, ask the other guy. That was my lesson. I remember to 2016, the night bobby and i were lying down at 1030 at night and trump is one and it just startled me because i think it would be possible. And the polling up to that time was basically hillarys got this and that night occurs and i can remember saying, bobby, what dont i know about our own . That this could happen . And then i read subsequently i read j. D. Vances book now a you United States senator from ohio. I read an even better book in some ways called demon copperhead. Barbara kingsolver if youve it and i think ive been a lot of places, talked to a lot of people, but i dont think i knew anywhere near enough america. I and i didnt know there was this many angry people and. I didnt know there were this many people feel left out and let i we got to listen a lot better and do this really consciously and we can start in miami. A good place here is a community where we at the cutting of american pluralism 2. 8 Million People in this county, people like you and me are 15 of the population and only 12 of the 35,000 babies born a year. And if i were coming from detroit would say, wow, there are a lot of cubans there, arent they . And the cuban American Population is only half of the 65 of the people in this county are hispanic. And then when i come from the detroit black and africanamerican, were interchange a lot here. Might look at racism, other subjects. This is a the best you can do in this in my estimation youre not going to save it. None of us is but the best you can do is be a good example of what could be done. And thats the enormous opportunity of a place. Miami is to show people how we we can talk. Ive seen my friend Matt Anderson mosaic, who works full time on these kinds of issues but lots of people do the best you can be. This world is a pretty good example, whether its or me or any of us. And thats the thats the opportunity in miami is to listen and learn well maybe you know, thats got me thinking maybe the lesson out of out of the interaction between brant and michael in the driveway that when they peel back werent being afraid of the conversation and they they were they were acting and in some ways in each others interests. I think theres an argument to be made for that that and, you know, this helpful because i do think about it where they chickening out where they were they both running away from the conversation they needed to have. Were they finding a a greater purpose in the relationship they have living next to each other . And i think what youre saying helps me understand that. So i think we have time for i have no idea what the drill here. Everybodys my is this a good time . Mitchell yeah. Everybody i. Have a quick question for you. I think come up to i have a question so lets look toward book and see the story of brant. What is it about either his background or his personality or his view of life, which allows him not be one of the 68 of the veterans who voted for trump in South Carolina . Why do you think he came to be with who he became . If answering that question he would he would draw a line. His father, who was an influence on growing up, interestingly, in michaels case, his father, if you read the book, youll see huge, huge factor in how michael turned turned. And i mean, the most generous aspects of michael in brents case this is a father who. Will do a couple of things. Ill try to make a quick there there examples that showed up for instance when the father was just basically saying and in this mom too but in this mostly as father saying look be good person and then you got to you got to chance of good things happening to you. Its not a guarantee, but its a chance. And and the father would acknowledge were in a privileged position. There are people rough shape and were going to Pay Attention to everybody. But he had a chance here. If you behave in a certain way and. Brant took that to heart again and again there was a day when meredith, their younger daughter, was born and it became clear that that she had down syndrome. And brant was terribly upset and he said to his father, what am i going to do . And his father said, youre going to love her. And brant did, he has. And he does. And i think its fair to say he brought that. He brings same thinking to his interactions with people hes in conflict with like michael and hope thats an answer. Beautiful that came from that grounding and also acknowledgment that hes not lucky enough place to be able to try to have a good life. My question is about michael trying understand him where hes coming from so that i can understand better. Is it just the j. D. Vance personify . Right. I hope nothing in this book is j. D. Vance personified. Okay, theres an opinion. Im sorry. Thats unkind. I michael, its a its a great, complicated story. And in the book there, michaels a recurring character. But there are two chapters devoted specifically to him and its not that i want to. Its im asking to read the book. I want to give a short answer to a complicated figure like michael. But there are reasons michael and his wife and i come have come to think the way they think can and if you if you do read the book and youre not judging michael but youre trying to understand him just i hope youll try to understand anyone in the. I think i think a line will bring you to an understanding of how he views the world and and and what his his are and there are legitimate. I want to challenge your idea david about of people stepping up of journalists in order aspect of for who are important to us but what is going to motivate. Patriotism what kind of motivate the next level. The russian patriot whats going to motivate the people who said horrible during the sixties during selma march like me i was raising a family sort of a career. I read about and i watched about it, but i did nothing and its only gotten worse. And so im wondering if there is any idea to motivate young people, people in their prime, to make America Great again . Well, im going to im going to push this question to dave, because my focus when i do my work is pretty narrow on the character in front of me. But i read daves on on yesterday and on the flight today. Its a magnificent it was so moving and your gaze is much wider than mine and youve come again and again with examples of what it takes to to lift people up into the possibility that they will be a mandela. So i do a book group in home have for ten years and its a book about undersea standing history. Book. Were going to discuss this coming sunday is called the against lumumba. Its about Patrice Lumumba you dont know who he is. Look him up. Its an important moment in world and american. And im thrilled when i finish the discussion a leader named they among three books and you couldnt help be optimistic about america after i know so many young in this community who give me the greatest possible hope and one of the poached that ive liked over the years is comes George W Bush and he talked about the soft bigotry of low expectations and i think it is crucial to have a Higher Expectations of our five children and everybody elses. And you got a lot chance of getting good things from people theyre just wonderful people in this and in this community. And yeah, we got a long way to go, but if you get out around, i find it almost joyous in my own life of all the good people that i know and that gives me a lot of confidence. Our five children are 59 to 39. Weve been married 60 years and. They do different and various deeds. Some are on a certain plane and some are on other plane, but theyre really good human beings and theyre really good parents. I see them and im thrilled with the adults that they will become. And bobby and i have always expected good things and we have not a shortage of some teachers who expect that much from some students. And thats an american tragedy. So i know the real world has a lot of pain and. Our world of miami has a lot of pain, but theres so many people who give me hope about what the what the future is. You know, we could we could turn the question back you because eventually you became, the person who did what you did. So something happened to you along the way there were forces at work and youve done what youve done. And those forces are still work. Its not like its not like everyone has abandoned those things that are still going on out there. People still rise up and do amazing things. It is it theres evidence of this every so so as much as i like the question, i, i dont want to buy into the idea that its not happening anymore. I think it happened to you in my own way, i think i rose up to what i can do. It certainly has. I see it in my kids. I watch my grandkids, you know, there things are clicking for them. And at some point at some point, you get the chance to the person you or to use the most example, brant looking at a stupid, headless, dead body floating in pool butter and saying, we need do something about this. Otherwise were not human. Its there. One of my favorite quotes from horace bam, more or less the inventor of the American Public school system. Hundreds 70 years ago. And he speaks to a graduating of antioch in ohio in 1859. And the civil war is just around the corner. And he tells the graduates, be ashamed to die before you have won some battle for humanity. It doesnt need to be something thats publicized or, terribly well known. But each of us has opportunity to make a difference. And that is the joy of life. Allen your two characters in your book represent this incredibly deep divide within the United States and 70 Million People voted for donald. Im not one of them, but its like we live in two different world wars and were going further and further apart. How can we start touring the two sides back together and at least listen each other . Well, thats the question. Thats and and i can only point to the examples what ive seen that that i guess brents case, when hes somebody whos trying to solve the worlds problems, that doesnt quite work. But when hes trying get along with his neighbor, that does work. And in michaels case, the same thing holds. True. And and so theres this old line in writing, you have to write the whole book. You just have to write a sentence and then write another sentence. And pretty soon you have a paragraph on and on. So so as i to be a rather corny man tonight, maybe maybe thats thats where you it just in the smallest retail interactions you have with people rather than larger wholesale ones i dont know so but im getting signal here. Two more questions and theyre both coming from you. And and were going to be able to get his book and you can order the two previous books and the books and books will help you do if you want to do that. And and davids going to sign as many books people want, i promise you. Its a wonderful book. Im not getting paid to say that. Okay yes, man. Oh, love. Davids and i once read an article about how evil wins the world. Its loud and that the good people we are the majority were just so i would like to think that the majority of people here are good and that were willing to do something not only for the preservation of in this country, but to have those conversations. So the question is very simple to you both. The reality is that we get into these hard conversations. It is physically disturbing. Right. So my question you is, what do you suggest we do before or during our conversation that is not aligned to our values, to our opinion as to what we think and what we feel order to not only for a sermon, have the stamina to, finish that conversation, but to actually end up in in a good with it. So im curious about your to shy away from expressing your opinion or reflective of okay i think you started not about the downfall of america or whatever or my gosh are terrible start by having a conversation about who that person is and what makes book special to me is i know a lot about these two people and where they came from. Theyre quote, socioeconomic status as they grew up and their lives, which are blessed and troubled and so forth, get to know the human, what do they read . Whats the last movie they went to . What did they like a netflix . Tell me about your family. Thats a much more human way to do this then and then you can other conversations. But i wouldnt enter a conversation. My mission here is to make sure this other person how extraordinarily right i on this right. Right yeah yeah that one thing to add to it if going into these conversations the way i should have called the book this the wisdom of brant is when he said to michael that day, well got to get back to my bs. So maybe, maybe if we all like we dont avoid the conversation but we have our, our safe word. I got to get back to the high. But im going to say its now that i think it directly contradicting you just said it makes a lot of sense ive been sitting here listening to the need us to speak to each other and of course i believe that where my own personal theres an underlying current of change nobodys going to change my mind, not going to change anybody elses mind. So im not about the value of having that hard conversation. I am sure about the of maintaining my neighbors friendship. Thats very important. And the question i kind of want to ask is i, i watch kimmel and he had a thing about fox interview. You know what news showed each other and then people on the street if somebody did this and it was they it was about biden and then oh no, no, i made a mistake. It was about and what i saw people change their. Logic was mind boggling and is why ive been sitting here listening to this for conversation and im not where it would go. So suppose id like to know what do you think would be the optimal outcome of that kind of tough conversation . Because people, assuming nobodys mind is going to be changed. Yes, thats right. But i think from the example you gave, i think two things. Number one, theres a lot of ways to cut film with the show today. I know but there are then but but you know in life metaphorically there are a lot of ways to cut film if you go into something with an agenda trying to prove your point then those conversations go well i guess you can avoid the conversation and and you can get along with your neighbor by talking about fishing and dogs and not talking about this one division between you and thats, again, as i said earlier, is that willful ignorance or is that just a way to get along . And to out . We all believe we need to have a hard conversation. What is optimal outcome . Our i think its a version of what dave was saying. If if, if if if you go into a conversation. In other words, the thing the thing about what youre describing the way was cut and kimmel can do what he wants its its its but its a gotcha move. Yeah okay gotcha gotcha. You know, mother, i caught you. Thats easy to do, but so its the same thing in my journalism, i think if if the ultimate is gotcha, what does that do . Easy. Anybody can do that. But but if you were if you were to if you can avoid the conversation, theres nothing wrong with avoiding conversation. But you can also if somebody changes his mind like like kimmel caught him doing well, you can to understand why that happened and not that youre going to change that persons but maybe you understand something more about the dynamics going on that would cause a person to do that. So then its not a gotcha conversation. Its understanding conversation. Theyre exhausting. Theyre frustrating. I get ticked off of people all the time and i have to pull myself back. But but if i approach my conversations and this is something trying to learn, if i approach my difficult conversations, the way i approach my writing the job of a writer isnt to judge. Its to understand. Then i have chance, a decent conversation. But its a work progress for me because the moment feels so urgent, right . Everythings on the line. But. But, but thats its a version of what they were saying. You know, understanding it is as basic as it sounds. Last question question. David lawrence knows i dont know what the last question ever is. I think that in our daily lives are a lot of people that we run into who are not that hard core. And i believe that if we speak our truth, gentleness and love, we can persuade people who are maybe on the bubble. We can bring a little bit of education to who maybe didnt get it in high. I find as i get older, one of the nice things is that can be the eccentric lady who to a young person here, let me have you listen to me for a moment because studied something and i can help with it. So i its not its not all dangerous. Dangerous. And and need to have courage because there is human nature and human nature. Theres that pugnacious part. But there is also that part that likes to preserve our friendships and keep the status quo. I did it in a marriage i know all about compromise and these are only observations and i didnt mean to steal this but i think in our daily lives we can speak up when we see collusion happening. Yeah, thats. I was just going to i was just going to add one thing. If i can, when if i go into a conversation and trying to persuade somebody of something, it only works if i go into the conversation willing to be persuaded by somebody. Id also add that its hard to know where you in history when youre living it so. Im old enough to remember the korean macarthur being fired and asking my father what was that all about . I can remember vietnam where this country was torn in two at that time. Torn in two. I remember watergate. There were times that it felt the country was being rent asunder and knowing that wed come through so much in American History and Peoples Still are willing to die for this country and people are eager to to this country. I dont know of people as eager as who want come to this country versus any of the other 213 countries in the world. So i aint losing my optimistic soul. But please thank david finkel, who with. Im joyce vance. Im okay. How that. Im a professor the university of alabama law school