At the wilderness society. First articles on the Environmental Movement say that youre the father of earth day. Hows your offspring doing at age 20. Well, weve come out of this quite a distance since 1970. That is to say theres a great deal more awareness concern and understanding about the issue. Now than there was then. There is finally a recognition, an important recognition on the part general that the activities of man on the planet are actually dangerously degrading the ecosystem that sustains all of the oceans, lakes, air force, soil. So weve come some distance. We have a long, long way to go, but at least theres a much better public understanding and much better understanding the legislators governors and members of legislature, congress that this is a a vital issue. In fact, i my own view is that the status, our resources, our air, water soil, rivers, oceans and so forth minerals, the that is the most important facing mankind on the planet, because determines quite precisely our standard of living and the quality of our lives. And we have been dangerously degrading all of these resources many, many years. And its time we undertake a very major and serious effort to stop the degradation and help give nature a chance to do some restoration, at least restoration, where the damage hasnt been irreparable. You mentioned, the public and legislatures, what do you hope both groups will take away from this earth day, 1990 . Well, i think the objectives of the most important objectives of this earth day are the same as they were in 1970. My then was to get a demonstration so big the politicians would have to wake up and Pay Attention to the issue and force the issue into the political arena. Well, 20 Million People participate. It it did force the issue, the political arena, and it a big educational effort. And think 1990 has the same purpose except its going to be worldwide. And i would hope that the heads of around the world take this issue seriously and start in their own countries. Thats been one of the big unfortunate vacuums in the whole thing, is that leaders at the president ial level, the head of state level, except for a couple like like Prime Minister gro harlem brundtland, norway, and the Prime Minister of australia, not the only two heads of state who really have addressed this issue seriously and had to stop their agenda. So i think itll i hope itll have the impact of shaking the leadership out of its lethargy and also be as it was the set in 1970 a tremendous educational effort educations at the bottom of all. Lets go back to 1970. How did you first come to the idea of having earth . Well, that was the well, not the name exact event, but for several years or maybe almost ten years when i was governor, wisconsin. So i was concerned about the fact that here was an issue of primary importance to to all of us. We live on this planet and that the Political Leadership of the country was paying no attention to it. So i came down to washington,. 1962 and met with bobby and went through it with him. I brought along some scrapbooks show the great publicity you could by and the notice by advocating protection of the environment. It was and then i when i came to washington, a senator in 63, i talked to Bobby Kennedy again told the president ought to do a nationwide and that with the president doing it, that would give it the kind of visibility the notice the attention the that it needed to to focus on the congress and the press and media on this issue. And the president decided to do a nationwide tour in august 63, and he wrote me a letter and asked for some ideas and i wrote him a five page letter and then on the beginning his tour, i took off with him along with Hubert Humphrey and gene and senator joe clark of pennsylvania. And we left the white house. And without by helicopter to andrews air force. And then i headed out to west and landing finally at duluth, minnesota and then the president flew over and gave a speech in wisconsin. And then gave another one in jackson hole. And he was off on his conservation and tour, which i was very delighted about. But then he got to salt lake and in the in his speech there, he said about Foreign Policy that got headlines all over the nation that was the end of the conservation tour he didnt have around him much support for the concept. The idea they didnt think much of it his advisers but anyway that got the headlines. That was the end of it. So what i had hoped would happen didnt happen. It didnt get this issue into the public political arena. And so years went by and i speaking and some 37 states between 63 and 1970 and that was on a conservation tour late july, early august. Of 1969, out on the west coast. And i spoke at the Santa Barbara university of california, Santa Barbara at the water conference, then headed there to speak at a conservation conference in berkeley. On the way up, i picked up i picked up a magazine, ramparts magazine. And as you recall, there were antiwar protests, antivietnam war protests over this country. In my own state, they even had the National Guard out on the of wisconsin campus. And as i was going up, flying to berkeley, was reading this article about the vietnam the anti war, vietnam ins and suddenly it popped into my head, well, why not have a nationwide in environmental teach in and so at berkeley i gave a speech talked with a bunch of students and at the reception and they all thought it was wonderful idea. So i went back to the came back to washington and. Set up a Nonprofit Organization and made all the preparations and plans an earth day, then announced the eddy conservation speech in Early September in seattle, and it made front in a lot of newspapers and the way it went, it just took off really a remarkable grassroots response it so big in after three months that i couldnt run it anymore out of my office and. I opened the national office. And so all the telephone calls and stuff could be referred to as ups. And so the last three months it just kept it didnt we really didnt have to do an awful lot. It just grew on its own in those in the late sixties, just prior to earth day. What was the reaction of your colleagues in the senate in the places you spoke . No pun intended. But were you a voice in the and people just end of the day, did they listen to what you have to say and say thats nice and not pay much attention . What was the response . I wasnt speaking to many politicians this, although i did speak the legislature in massachusetts. Well happened was every private, practically every member of congress got invitations to speak on a campus or at some event, their own state, their own congressional district. And there were and so i received about 85 or 86 requests from members of congress for copies of speeches because they hadnt given any speeches. And, you know, what are the issues and . They wanted a quick fillip. I know it did politicians respond a grassroots demonstrations of concern, their purpose and know all the all the friends and those who just in the congress were all very friendly, disposed and congress adjourned for that day so that everybody could go out. I think it was a very positive, very good event. And we have i know, what, ten, 20, 30 times as many conservationist, environmental as first rate people as well knowledgeable in the house of representatives in, the senate, many more than we had, 1970 back in 1970. You were quoted as saying a polluted countryside, the antithesis of freedom. Explain that. Well, i dont thats an excerpt out of of out of a speech speech. What weve been doing is is away from people by polluting the air and the water and eroding the soil and destroying scenic beauty and wildlife habitats. Weve been taken away. One of the fundamental and important fundamental quality of life, without people having really a very specific this participation or decision in it. What weve done is allow industry and business externalize their costs by degrading the air, the water, the soil, the oceans, rivers, lakes. And so forth, and charging it to the public. So that was an a sentence out of a speech, which i was making that kind of a point that were depriving people of of an important right to have decent and clean environment. And thats the and and that is an important right is not one thats legally enforceable. Of course. But its we dont want to live in a dirty, degraded environment. You mentioned that on day in 1970, congress had the day off. Some members could speak. What impact earth day have on the congress. Well, had the impact i hope for i was hoping that it would be demonstration so big that it would force this issue into the political and force it to the attention of the politicians who werent paying attention to it. So it did do that. And there i and a number of of friends of mine up there said, know, i hadnt given thought to this issue in the past. Its never been raised and i havent studied. But i can see its an important issue. And so a lot of them started addressing and addressing this particular there were some very good people up there, but there are many more now that brought the issue to the forefront in 1970. Did it stay there or did it go to the back burner fairly quickly thereafter . No im always every for 18 years id get calls saying whatever happened earth day as though something what only organized it for one purpose and the the it never went on the back burner. Well, of course president was opposed to he didnt see any to any of the environmental things and which was quite tragic. It cost us an eight year loss. You which was really be recovered. But as far the public is concerned, every single year the polls show that the interest concern of the people kept kept rising. So it was on the back burner because had a president who was antienvironmental and was doing appointing everybody to every conceivable position he could appoint who, had a destructive view or didnt believe in the mission of the agency, they headed, whether its the epa or the Forest Service or the interior department. And but but at all times the concern of the public kept rising every single year something happens that dramatizes the people. The fragility of our whether its the oil spill events William Sound or or the threat of global warming, Hazardous Waste dumps getting into the underground water supply so people are much more sensitive now than they in the past as president doing in regard to the environment, i think the jurys out on question. I hope hell become an environmental president to i hope he will step out and give a message to the congress and the country and lay out an agenda and you know, ask the public support we what we lacked for many, many years as president in leadership. And im hoping well get it. President bush on the letterhead of the wilderness society, written a letter asking mr. Gorbachev to participate in earth day. Have you heard back . No. We sent letter to mr. Gorbachev, president gorbachev, and copies to the embassy here. Hes going to be in this country, in washington. And we simply invited him to address the conservation groups, the National Conservation groups and were hoping he will. Obviously, hes had some other issues higher up on his agenda, but we hope we hope when he comes here, he will. He has he has said already that the and that the environment that the economy in the environment are the two of the most serious challenges he faces you in a also in in the earth line newsletter thats out youve written that president bush would inspire the world and give it dramatic leadership. Youre in for it. But if he would propose that the us and the soviet union would mutually reduce military expenditures by 50 in the next ten years. Explain that. And another 50 in the decade after it. Well, we have been engaged soviet union in the United States, a totally irrational arms race, yet in an idea of how irrational its been when you consider that every single year weve spent more money and become less secure, 35 years ago, we couldnt deliver multiple warhead missiles across ocean around the world in 20 minutes or halfway around. So what would you what would you think of the societies were spending huge amounts of money become less secure than they were the year. Its irrational now theres the arms race all to stop the president ought to step forward. I think say lets have a world conference on disarmament. What are these armaments for and develop develop a public support in all countries would be tremendous military are pretty goofy when you get down to it and theres no point in the soviet union and us continuing that and we ought to get the budgets from the two of us have been spending 600,000,000,300 billion. The plate. We are a hindu we ought to have a target of getting that down to 50 billion, maybe below that. But that ought to be a kind of a target in start these resources allocating half these resources to husbanding resources of the planet that sustain our life here how foolish can we be the threat of nuclear war is nearly as serious as the threat of the decline as the decline in the environment because that disaster is inevitable unless do something so its time stepped forward and said okay weve weve been we dont need all this goofy expenditure and star wars and all that stuff. Lets get down to the business of making this a livable planet for the inhabitants here. The public would support that all over world. You suggest those savings be used to help clean up the environment. It just a question of money is it if you just enough dollars into the issue. Oh no its not just a question of money but well have to take a whole lot larger allocation than we have because were spending it anyway in another way. Were spending the Capital Assets and counting it on the profits side of the ledger and any you know, were waste, were polluting the air. Were blue the oceans were polluting the rivers, lakes were eroding soils in this country and all over world. Were destroying forests. All of these are the Capital Assets that the wealth of any country. So were paying one whale of a big price that in the be a whole lot cheaper for us do things that bring this degradation to a halt the soil and pollution people cant afford cant afford it we cant afford not to stop this because. Were going to go bankrupt dissipating our Capital Assets the way were doing in articles. Youve written about earth day. You say that one of the goals is to change peoples attitudes. Talk for a little bit about the attitudes that people have toward the environmental issue, and also what you call the conservation ethic. Well, we have ever since ancestors landed here have viewed this country as a country of unlimited abundance . Every resource that you could think, therefore, we could spend it without limit and we could vent all the pollution into the air and the and the soil. And somehow or another, nature would take care of that. Our Resource Base was endless and we were rich forever. Well, we found out that. Isnt that just so we have done all kinds of things that are terribly costly cost us 100 times as much to cure it. It would have been to stop it in the first place involving pollution of groundwater and and oceans, rivers and all that. I think the when we about whats the most important issue facing it the most concern issue everybody list all kinds of things and you know exponential or population growth which is tremendously important. Were getting were probably beyond the place now that the planet can support the population and have a reasonable standard of. But you will get Exponential Population growth, the threat of global warming, groundwater pollution, ocean pollution, a whole up, but the most important issue is the one thats rarely mentioned, and thats the issue. A lack of the conservation ethic in the culture, our society, the the kind of conservation ethic that aldo leopold talked about when he simply said were all of the same biotic system and all parts of it are intertwined. And then the end important i perceive a a germination of this kind of an ethic. Yeah. And growing in this country and we have to have where do you that. Well i, i, ive talked to ive been talking for almost 40 years, 35 years around the country and i see it running every place i go on this year to speak. And last year somebody comes up and says i was in school but just to be an at their college. And many of them are teachers many of them and they have a strong ethical concept about about when we get through this one, you will have these grade school, college and High School Kids up whose parents are more sensitive and teaching them and the and so forth. So i see the germination of an ethic thats going to say it must that if were intruding, lets not what are the consequences if we had any just ordinary common sense in the politics of this country we wouldnt have practically destroy the marvelous everglades of florida by diverting the water and so forth. We wouldnt have destroyed half the wetlands in this country, subsidizing crops that are already surplus. So the farmers could drain the drain the wetlands and grow more. We wouldnt have polluted the rivers and so forth. We have to have a we have to develop a society out of the young folks here that Conservation Society that demands to know and ask the question, what are the consequences of, our actions and if theyre seriously negative to the ecosystem that sustains all of us, we will we just wont do it. How do americans compare looking at the environment in this ethic compared to other people around the world . Well, it only in my reading of of social and cultural and history, the only people who had that i know of, theres a lot i think i dont know the only ones that i know of that come on the air respected have a respect for nature and a real conservation ethic. Our native people, our native indians. If we had the if we had the conservation of the indians, that the land doesnt belong to us, belongs future generations. I think the United States is developing an ethic i dont know enough about. Other parts of the world. Its interesting to note that the socialist countries of the world have been far in their treatment of the environment than. The capitalist countries have both of them have been pretty bad. But the socially countries, the soviet union, poland eastern bloc have been much worse. And the pollution is much, much worse. But it will take a generation with the real ethic to reverse this. America is often described as a disposable society. You see that changing . Well its going to have to. Yes, i think its its hard. You know, things develop incrementally. Half the waste dumps in this country where solid waste are being put. Municipalities, according to the statistics i can get, half of them are going to be filled about the next five years. If were going to be where were going to stop the throwaway business or everybody is going to have their backyard and back porch and basement filled with. And so but i think theres a sense developing that this is a this is not very sound policy. You just throw away stuff and dump it away. And in fact, all kinds of people who manufacture things to sell, manufacture so they dont last long and, you know, so i think thats changing and well have to change and it will change very rapidly, i think, in the next 15, 20 years. Are you an outdoorsman, hiker, camper. Yeah. Well, i love the outdoors and i love to fish and get into outdoors. Yeah in. The past 20 years when youve been out the wilderness, what have you seen . Things getting a little worse before they get better, things looking up. What do you see . Youre out there . Well, of course, i been into number of real world. If youre talking about designated wildernesses, which we in the wilderness societies involved in fighting for more in more wilderness. The answer is that the natural areas of america most of large, large sections the only large sections of natural america left in this country are federal lands we, the federal government, almost a million square miles. Thats the National Parks national forests, wildlife refuges, blm. All of them are being degraded. All of the national forests. The worst situation you have a Forest Service managed at the top, irresponsibly in. My view have very little concern for environmental matters down at the grassroots level. All kinds of professional foresters are worried, writing the chief of the Forest Service letters that we are managing it right, that the Forest Service as as a Management Agency in terms of the environment is a disaster. The park service is losing ground. The wildlife ravages are losing ground. So these magnificent areas which over the last 26 of america, which are the last lands big, such of land left that were quite a bit like they were when our ancestors left are being degraded by day, year by year. And its a great tragedy because once theyre gone, i say gone once theyre commercialized over as were doing in our parks or polluting the grand canyon or or sending 50,000 flights of airplane tour flights down the grand canyon were taking this magnificent and compromise it. So thats its gotten much worse in the past 20 years and i would like to see some leadership president ial ever level that says to the Forest Service. Stop wasting 400 million a year selling timber losing money selling timber off forests, stop selling the last lands of the great ancient forests of the Tongass National forest trees, a thousand years old and substitute money every year and shipping it all to the pacific rim. If the president would step forward and tell the Forest Service to stop this nonsense and tell the park service be a whole lot tougher on management we dont we dont need all these campsites, developing campsites and parks. Thats for the private sector. Keep the keep keep the parks in their natural condition. So in of the outdoors and wilderness and wild areas, we are losing ground the tragically rapidly because we dont have much leadership at the top telling Forest Service and the park service and the wild and the and the fish and Wildlife Service and the bureau of land to do a better, more a better job of protecting the integrity, those resources that we have, that almost other country in the world. No, no. Industrial country in the world has anything comparable. And were letting it slowly go the drain. You see, a day when wilderness will be rationed, you have to make reservation go. Oh, i do. There isnt any question that. Theres no question about that. Youll have to make reservations. The purpose of setting aside wilderness is to preserve some areas in their natural condition in perpetuity and any, any time. You reach a stage where youre overpressure the resource and beginning to degraded. Thats too much pressure. You will destroy the wilderness if you do that. Therefore, youre going to to say that the pressure gets higher. Okay. You have to apply for the to to win. Of course thats true and many of thats true in many places too already denali and alaska they dont they they limit the number if you put too many people a wilderness area, pretty soon you dont have a wilderness area and looking at this earth day 1990, what are the that people will see today that are the same as they may have seen in 1970. But what will be different about this earth day . Well, i think in terms of activities, know those wonderful Creative Ideas that bubbled up from the campuses and the grade schools and the high schools. Those kids, a whole lot more idea than than we folks did. And i didnt, i knew they had more than i did. And you will see all of this bubbling know some of it will be dramatic and funny and humorous, like the one where it was about where some place where they somebody had a science, a goat. And the science said, i eat garbage. What are you doing for the environs . But there will be a lots of, lots of interesting activities. But therell also be things we never saw before. Therell be satellite broadcasts all around the world. Therell be lots of every every actor and entertainer. The country seems to want to be on a program theyve grabbed the issue. Thats fine and industry are jumping into the issue as they didnt the last time so its going to be a fascinating. Area. All the issues, there are new issues, but all the old issues are still here and well be here for some time to come in your bio from the wilderness aside, it talks about many of the things youve youve done earth day. You were the original sponsor of the legislation setting aside the appalachian trail first to introduce legislation mandating fuel efficiency for introduced legislation banning ddt, which would accomplish are you most proud of all . I think in terms of its impact that day, as an educational matter and as a political matter has had a greater impact than anything else. And im very happy some other matters such as i was able to let the Apostle Islands of the state of wisconsin beautiful islands, the north shore of wisconsin into, the park system and the st white river i grew up on. Its one of the great and beautiful rivers in the midwest that comes down from up in northern wisconsin and finally joins in to mississippi river. Ive got that in the wild river system happy about that because those are two resources i grew up with. But i would say that earth day, im probably the happiest with