Transcripts For CSPAN3 Judges 20240704

Individual. He should have a guardian appointed by the bc courts for his personhood. There is at least, i believe, a prima facie argument to say that there is substantial argument to indicate such. And you mentioned its not just what youve written in the report, but it was the demeanor of President Biden as you interviewed him. Ill say in conclusion, whether he does or does not meet this definition, i believe your findings raise significant concerns about his current fitness for the office of president and certainly his fitness Going Forward in the future, and i appreciate the fact that you are brave enough to raise this issue in this report, because you knew this would be significant in your findings. But you did so based on a very significant, very detailed, very thorough independent report, and i praise you for that, that doing your duty and situate. Thank you, special counsel. I yield back at gentleman yields back. Mr. Her, we have looked from the floor, we have a few more members who will do their, their five minutes of questioning, so were going to recess, and then we will convene 10 minutes after the conclusion of the last vote. I believe we only have a couple votes, two votes. That will take a while. But well get back here soon as we can, and theres, theres, theres food in the, in the, in the back room for, i think we still have some left that youre welcome to. With that, we stand in recess until 10 00. There chairman jordan, Ranking Member nadler, chaired in homer, Ranking Member raskin, members of the committee, good morning. Im privileged to have served our country for the majority of my career, a decade and a half. Most of those years with the department of justice. I have served as a line prosecutor, a supervisor, a principal associate Deputy Attorney general, a United States attorney, and a special counsel. Ive served in these roles with gratitude as the son of immigrants to this country. The first member of my family to be born here. My parents grew up in korea, and for Young Children during the korean war. My father remembers being hungry and grateful for the food that american gis shared with him and his links. My mother fled what is now north korea in her own mothers arms, heading south to safety. My parents eventually met, married, and came to the u. S. , seeking a better life for themselves and for their children. Their lives and mine would have been very different were it not for this country. No matter the role, no matter the administration, i have applied the same standards and the same impartiality. My respect for the Justice Department and my commitment to this country are why i agreed to serve as special counsel when asked by the attorney general. I resolved to do the work as i did all my work for the department fairly, thoroughly, and professionally, with close attention to the policies and practices that govern department prosecutors. My team and i conducted a thorough independent investigation. We identified evidence that the president willfully retained classified materials after the end of his vice presidency when he was a private citizen. This evidence included an audio recording conversation, during which mr. Biden told his ghostwriter that he had, quote, just found all the classified stuff downstairs, end quote. When mr. Biden said this, he was a private citizen, speaking to his ghostwriter in his private rental home in virginia. We also identified other recorded conversations during which mr. Biden read classified information allowed to his ghostwriter. We did not, however, identify evidence that rose to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Because the evidence fell short of that standard, i declined to recommend criminal charges against mr. Biden. The departments regulations required me to write a confidential report explaining my decision to the attorney general. I understood that my explanation about this case had to include rigorous detailed and thorough analysis. In other words, i needed to show my work, just as i would expect any prosecutor to show his or her work explaining the decision to prosecute or not. The need to show my work was especially strong here. The attorney general had appointed me to investigate the actions of the attorney general sitting president of the United States. I knew that for my decision to be credible, i could not simply announce that i recommended no criminal charges and leave it at that. I needed to explain why. My report my best effort to explain why i declined to recommend charging President Biden. I analyzed the evidence as prosecutors routinely do, by assessing its strengths and weaknesses. Including by anticipating the ways in which the president s defense lawyers might poke holes in the governments case if there were a trial, and seek to persuade jurors that the government could not prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. There has been a lot of attention paid to language in the report about the president s memory, so let me say a few words about that. My task was to determine whether the president retained or disclosed National Defense information willfully. That means knowingly, and with the intent to do something the law for bids. I could not make that determination without assessing the president might skate state of mind. For that reason, i had to consider the president s memory and overall mental state, and how a jury likely would perceive his memory and mental state in a criminal trial. These are the types of issues that prosecutors analyze every day, and because these issues were important to my ultimate decision, i had to include a discussion of them in my report to the attorney general. The evidence and the president himself put his memory squarely at issue. We interviewed the president and asked him about his recorded statements. Quote, i just found all the classified stuff downstairs, end quote. He told us that he didnt remember saying that to his ghostwriter. He also said he didnt remember finding any classified material in his home after his vice presidency. And he didnt remember anything about how classified documents about afghanistan made their way into his garage. My assessment in the report about the relevance of the president s memory was necessary and accurate and fair. Most importantly, what i wrote is what i believe the evidence shows, and what i expect jurors would perceive and believe. I did not sanitize my explanation, nor did i disparage the president unfairly. I explained to the attorney general my decision, and the reasons for it. Thats what i was required to do. I took the same approach when i compared the evidence regarding President Biden to the departments allegations against former President Trump. There too, i called it like i saw it. As a prosecutor, i had to consider relevant precedents, and to explain why different facts to justify different outcomes. That is what i did in my report. The competency analysis is shut forth in chapters 11, 12, and 13 of my report provides a thorough evaluation and explanation of the evidence, and i encourage everyone to read it to form their opinions of the report. Prosecutors rarely write public reports or testify about their investigations. That is the Justice Departments longstanding policy, and it protects important interests. My team and i have prepared the report to the attorney general with care, and the report stands at the primary source of information. My responses today will be limited to clarifying information for the committee. I will refrain from speculating or commenting on areas outside of the scope of the investigation. Nor will i discuss what investigative steps we did or did not take, beyond whats in the report. In conclusion, i wanted to express my heartfelt thanks to the attorneys, agents, analysts, and professional staff who helped us do our work fairly, thoroughly, and independently. I am grateful and privileged to have served with them. I single out for particular thanks deputy special counsel mark crick bum, a former United States attorney himself that brought great wisdom, skill, and judgment to our task. Thank you. I welcome your questions. Thank you, mr. Hur. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from north dakota for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. How could that possibly happen . How could anyone be that a responsible . And i thought, what data was in there the compromise sources, methods, and its just totally irresponsible. As President Biden statement about donald trump and the classified documents. Mr. Hur, classified documents were found at the Penn Biden Center . Thats correct. They were found in President Bidens garage, also in the same home, yes. In his Main Floor Office . Correct. Is back in his thirdfloor den. Correct. At. Correct. Expected that the Biden Institute . Correct. The elements of the crime are clear. He had possession of the document. And is related to National Defense . Correct. We may talk about the willful part. Retain the document, writing, or note and fail to deliver to somebody entitled to receive it. But those are the elements of the crime. Including the intent element, yes. There are at least two different quotes where he told his a ghost writer, this is every six in 2017, but he had just found all of this classifieds stuff downstairs. He did make that statement captured on audio recording. And on april 10, 2017 he read a classified passage. Suspect that is in the report. Inspect these are National Security documents. Afghanistan and lots of those things. Correct. At one point in time his personal attorneys and doj attorneys argued about notes and taking all of the Different Things and compared it to. Expected to report that . President biden attorneys, personal attorneys talked about the notes and why they did not account for the president ial records act. But in your report it seems persuasive but you eventually said the executive order trumps. We did set forth analysis of governing law and concluded that the executive order, 13526 it did apply at the time. So you have audio recording from his ghost writer where he acknowledges that the information that he has is classified and he is sharing it with his ghost rider . We have an audio recording capturing a statement from mr. Buying biden sank to his coast writer, i just found all of the classified stuff downstairs. And reciting passages from that situation . Yes. And those are in his own words . Correct. And the ghost writer, he has no clearance or classified clearance to anything. That is our understanding. He was not authorized to receive classified information. The elements are possessed documents, documents related to National Defense and will fully retain those documents and in this case shared them with somebody not clear to receive them. There are different subsections of that relates to willful intention and the other relates to disclosure. The willful retention, we have them in the biden, the garage, the thirdfloor den, the university of delaware, and the Biden Institute. This is a person that has not been great dealing with classified documents even prior to his time as Vice President. We address each set of those documents in the report. I think this is really important because it appears, just from reading the reports, we have heard all about exonerated and all of those things but it appears he met every element of the crime so i want to talk about the department principles on prosecution because that has nothing to do with the underlying elements. It is whether or not you can prove this. Under the Department Justice manual and federal prosecution, a prosecutor has to assess the evidence and determine if in his or her there will be a conviction at trial. So whether or not you meet the elements of the crime, and it is clear that he does, the second part of this is this. This is where it gets into the sympathetic wellmeaning elderly man with a poor memory. You couldve said we dont prosecute sitting president s. And you did not. That has nothing to do with the elements of the crime and that has to do with getting conviction at trial. Chrisman, part and parcel of the prosecutor judgment, it is assessing how the evidence items and identified lines up with the elements and what can be used. But his wellmeaning elderly man has nothing to do with it . It certainly has something to do with the way that a jury is going to perceive, consider, and make judgments. The chair now recognizes the Ranking Member, mr. Nader. You say that you found some evidence that the president mightve willfully maintain classified materials at the end of his vice presidency, correct . Yes. Also, in your words, you did not identify. Correct . That is correct. Would you agree that there is no such thing as being a little bit charged for a crime . You are either charged or you are not . Will you please repeat the question. Would you agree there is no such thing as kind of being charged with a crime. You are either charged or not. Correct. So many people are taking your words out of context. But you also include that President Biden cannot be charged with a crime because even after your thorough investigation you could not find sufficient evidence to charge him, correct . My conclusion was that based on my evaluation of the evidence , correct . What was that last question . Based on your conclusion, the ultimate conclusion is that President Biden cannot be charged with a crime because even after thorough investigation you could not find sufficient evidence to charge him. Correct or not . My conclusion is that criminal charges were not warranted. I have limited time so when i say correct, answer the question. Lets talk about why in sharp contrast to biden, President Trump faces 40 charges related to the unlawful retention of classified documents. That is apart from the 51 counts in cases alleging that he incited a rebellion and lied about finances. You found that President Biden reported classified documents in his possession to the fbi when he learned of them, correct . There was a voluntary disclosure by president ial counsel relating to the discovery of classified documents. With regard to President Trump, are you aware that the fbi learned that trump was in possession of classified material after the National Archives discovered them . Congressman, i am not familiar with the facts related to former President Trump. I will comment on them to the extent that i can. You write in your report, he would not have handed the government if he had willfully retained them. Part of understanding his intent is that he quickly and voluntarily returned those documents to the government. Correct . That was a factor in analysis. Thank you. To the best of your knowledge, why did the department of justice seek a warrant to search maralago . Congressman, i am not familiar with those deliberations. I had no participation in that there was concern the that trump had lied about possession of the documents and might conceal or destroy them. Special counsel smith found that trump obstructed the investigation by suggesting that the attorney and trump did not have the documents for the grand jury. At any point in your investigation, did you have any reason to believe that President Biden lied to you . I do address in my report one response that the president gave to a question that we posed to him that we deemed not to be credible. Was it clear that he did not like . Im sorry . The report is clear he did not like . And that he did not cause his stuff to lie to you. Your report is clear on that. Do you agree that causing somebody to lie is obstruction of justice . It is an example of obstruction. Thank you. It trump asked to dismiss the to move boxes to conceal the attorney from the fbi and the grand jury. At any point in your investigation did you find that President Biden directed his staff to conceal documents from you or anyone else . And you would agree that this is an example of constructing obstructing . Special counsel could not see how he tried to move documents. Do you agree that attempting to delete video footage is an attempt to obstruct the investigation . I dont want to characterize the evidence. That is the type of evidence. Expect to sum up, he is facing additional charges for lying to investigators. Is that correct . Those are allegations pending. And the reason that President Biden is not that they went easy on him but because after reviewing 7 million documents and interviewing nearly 150 witnesses, including the president himself, you could not prove that he had committed a crime. I yelled back. The gentleman, from california, mr. Mcclintock, is recognized. I want to get this right. Is it okay if i take home top secret documents, store them in my garage, and read portions of them to friends or associates . Congressman, i would not recommend it but i dont want to entertain any hypotheticals. Was it okay . I can do that . Congressman, i would not recommend that you do that. But you potentially said so in your report. Essentially said so. And it would be exculpatory by if i told you, i am getting old and i dont remember stuff as well as i used to. Congressman, i am not here to get into hypotheticals. I am here to talk about the facts. This is not a hypothetical. This is the issue at hand. You correctly noted in your report that former president and other senior officials had been given wide latitude in their possession of ossified information i believe your decision is enough to prosecute biden for the same offense and that is consistent with that president. The problem is, that precedent changed with the administrative decision to trump. Trump had full discretion over handing over classified material and on what materials to retain. Now we get to the glaring double standard. I think it would be toxic to the rule of law on its face if it was just two ordinary citizens that the only person being prosecuted for this offense is the political opponent to the president. This is the worst we could expect from the republic. I wonder how you square this . I do address, as i was required to as a prosecutor, a relevant precedent in the form of the indictment against trump. I set forth my explanation in my assessment and the comparison of those precedents. I am not here to comment any further. You said, for example, that there was no evidence beyond reasonable doubt. Well, he had classified material in his possession and control in multiple settings for multiple years and he told others he was aware of this and he shared that material with others. The mind boggles at what beyond reasonable doubt would actually mean. As i said at length in my explanations in chapters 11 and 12 of the report, my assessment is that the evidence, if presented in trial, it would not probably result in a conviction. That is one of the points that you make. President biden is likely to be an elderly sympathetic figure with a poor memory but how does that bear on indy any individual and their guilt or innocence. Is about a question for a judge or jury to decide . And again, here is the problem. Donald trump is being prosecuted for the same act that you have documented that joe biden committed. Congressman, if i understood your question correctly, isnt that a question for a jury . It most certainly come but does that bear on the guilt or innocence of an individual . It certainly bears on how we jury is going to receive and perceive. So what i asked earlier is correct. All i have to do is say, im sorry, but i am getting old and my memory is not so great. This is the doctrine that you have established in law now and it is frightening. Congressman, my intent is not to establish any kind of doctrine. I had a particular task in a particular set of evidence to consider. And to make a judgment with regard to one set of evidence and that is what i did. Here is the fine point of the matter. The foundation of the Justice System is equal justice under law. That is what gives the law its respect and legitimacy. Without it, the law is simply force, devoid of any moral authority. Justice is depicted as blindfolded for this reason. It does not matter who comes before her. All are treated equally. The rule of law becomes a sick mockery. It becomes a weapon to wield against political rivals and a tool of despotism. I am desperately afraid that this decision, of the department of justice, this has now crossed a line. I yelled back. The gentleman yields back. Without objection, the Ranking Member is recognized for contempt. Mr. Chairman, there is an article in the Washington Post that includes a full transcript of the biting counsel. The president he does not deserve what has been what has made him out to be. We recognize the gentleman the gentleman from california. Thank you for being here today. I found your report very interesting and they learned some things about it. The law and the precedents. There are clear differences between the cases of set by president reagan and trump. It was widely known that president reagan that included classified information. What i did not know and learned in your report was that the department of justice repeatedly described the diaries in public Court Filings as mr. Reagan personal records and that no agency ever attempted to remove his diaries. That is on page 195 of your report. So, the investigation found that President Biden believed that his notebooks were his personal property including work and political notes. Reflections and to do lists and more and that he was entitled to take those home. He found that on page 232. While much of his notebook was working work related, he had some truly personal subjects like again, gut wrenching entities about the illness and death of his son on page 82 and 253 of your report. It is clear, based on the reagan precedent that no criminal charges were warranted in this matter, elective to personal notebooks. I want to be clear that although the notebooks contain some very personal information and President Biden considered them his personal property, the president allowed your team to seize and review all of the notebooks that you found. Is that correct . That is correct. That is in stark contrast to the case of former President Trump. You also interviewed President Biden about other classified documents that you found outside of his notebooks, didnt you . Yes. Did the president tell you that he believed that any documents other than his own handwritten work for his own personal property . We did not hear that from the president. So it is very different from exPresident Trump. ExPresident Trump said all of the documents marked classified were his personal property. President biden did not consider documents that were produced by other entities with classified markings as his personal records. I think, since the majority is inclined to assert that there is disparities based on politics, it is worth quoting page 11 of the report which says, several material distinctions between the trump case and the case of mr. Biden are clear. Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, mr. Trump allegedly did the same. He not only refused to return the documents for many months but he also obstructed justice by listing others to destroy evidence and then lied about it. In contrast, mr. Biden turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the department of justice and consented to the search of multiple locations including his home. He was voluntarily interviewed and in other ways cooperated with the investigation. It is clear that these cases are not the same and frankly, i was surprised to learn that some of the classified documents were actually personal diaries that many executive officials have taken home with them because it was in their own handwriting and it is what they produced. Based on the department of justice public during the reagan administration, it is understandable that a person could believe that their personal diaries that they produce were not to be turned over, just as president reagan did not turn them over. I appreciate your report and i appreciate your being here, mr. Hur. And i would like to ask , mr. Chairman, a unanimous request to include in the record, a september 11 letter from the special counsel of the president to special counsel hur and a letter to merrick garland. With that, mr. Chairman, i see my time has expired and i yield back. Mr. Hur, why did you do it . Why did joe biden willfully retain and disclose classified material . He knows the law. He has been in office like 50 years. Five decades in the senate. Chairman of the Foreign Relations committee. Eight years as Vice President. He has been to the situation room. You know that he knew the rules because you said so on day 26. President biden was deeply familiar with the measures taken to safeguard classified documents. Joe biden knew the rules. Mr. Armstrong said this earlier. Joe biden was deeply familiar with it and he told us that joe biden says how could this happen and what data was in the documents that could compromise sources. You know that joe biden know the rules until biden knew the rules. Mr. Hur, why did he break them . Congressman, the conclusion as to why exactly the president did what he did is not one that we explicitly address in the report. The report explains my decision to the attorney general that no criminal charges were warranted in this matter. I think you told us, mr. Hur. Page 231 you said, President Biden had strong motivation. President biden had strong motivations to ignore the proper procedures for safeguarding the classified information in his notebooks. Why did he have strong motivations . Because, he decided, months before leaving office, to write a book. To write a book. That was his motive. He broke the rules because he wrote a book and he began meeting with a ghost writer while he was still Vice President. There is the motive. How much was President Biden paid for his book . Off the top of my head i am not sure of that. There is a dollar amount in there. Do you remember . Maybe 1 million . 8 million. Joe biden had 8 million to break the rules. To give classified information to the person writing the book. He knew the rules but he broke them for 8 million into a book advance. You know what, it was not just the money. This is page 231. Joe biden viewed his no books as an irreplaceable contemporaneous record of the most important moments of his vice presidency. He had written this all down. For the book. For the 8 million. The next thing you say is, such a record would buttress his record as a world leader. This was not just the money. It was not just 1 million. It was also his ego. Pride and money is why he knowingly violated the rules. The oldest motives in the book. Pride and money. Do you agree with that, mr. Hur . That language does appear in the report and we can identify evidence supporting those assessments. You have another interesting statement. You say that joe biden views himself as a man of president ial timber. It to remember that . I believe that appears in the report in the executive summary. Here is the scary part. Page 200. We said this earlier. Joe biden risk serious damage to american National Security when he shared information with his ghost writer. He shared it with his ghost writer. The person that was helping joe biden get 8 million and by the way, what did that ghost writer do with the information that joe biden shared with them . What did he do after you remain special counsel . If you are referring to the audio recordings that were created that is what i am referring to. He slid, if i recall correctly, he slid the files into the recycle bin on his computer. So he tried to destroy the evidence . So, joe biden, 8 million was the the to retain classified information that he knew was against the law. He destroys the evidence. That is a key take away. I yield back. The gentleman from maryland. Mr. Hur, your report starts with we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted. Have you had any reason to change your opinion . Nope. You highlight the support you got. Have you changed your mind about that . I have not. The report describes President Bidens cooperation in your request. He allowed his homes to be searched. Have you had any reason to change your mind on that . No, Ranking Member. You say, most notably, after being given chances to avoid prosecution, mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite. He not only refused to return the documents for months but he obstructed justice by enlisting others to disk to destroy evidence. Do you have any reason to change your decisions about the cooperation of President Biden and the noncooperation from former President Trump . I have not. So, that is how this started. The amateur memory specialist giving us their driveby diagnoses of the president of the United States, whose soaring oratory, analysis, and devastating of repartee with of the Freedom Caucus were on full display at the state of the Union Address last week for the whole country to see. The desperate question issued obstruction from the 91 federal and state federal charges that donald trump faces now is staggering civil court losses in new york totaling more than half 1 billion. And his fullblown embrace and romance with communist tyrants all over the world from Vladimir Putin to the hungry, and the former head of the kgb and the dictator of north korea. This, my friend. The House Judiciary Committee is back it we will hear more testimony from special counsel hur on classified documents. This is live coverage on c span. We have mr. Brett from virginia. Mr. Hur, we now go to the gentleman from maryland for five minutes. You, mr. Chairman and mr. Hur, we appreciate you coming in. One preliminary matter, that is the release of the transcript. I have heard complaints from my republican colleagues and releasing the transcript from the biden interview this morning. I have to note that i think there are over 90 transcripts that are being held by the majority here in the Judiciary Committee and the Oversight Committee for interviews that we all care about they go all go directly to issues with the impeachment inquiry. That is the pot calling the kettle black to be. At that is an understatement. Also, when the Ranking Member requested the majority release the transcripts, determine object did. I hope that we can move forward in the spirit of cooperation and sharing information. Mr. Hur, thank you again for the work you did. I dont agree with everything you wrote that that is the nature of the business. I do want to ask about this. You started off with, in the first line executive summary we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted in this matter. I take it that is still your position today . Yes, it is. You noted a little bit below that, for the reasons summarized below we conclude that the evidence does not establish that biden is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It used to believe that . I do. Even though you object to the use of the word exonerated, he has been cleared of criminal charges in the investigation . I determined that criminal charges are not warranted. I do want to go to the issue of material distinction that you raised in your report between President Biden and former President Trump. We have a document here that lays some of that out. You answer some questions on this already. It seemed to be highly relevant in your analysis that President Biden cooperated and i want to walk through a couple of those points. One is that he turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the department of justice upon request. Is that fair . That was a factor that we considered. He cooperated with your investigation . Yes. He consented to the search of multiple locations including his house . Yes. He set for a voluntary interview . Yes. That was five hours over two days . Yes. He turned over and allowed investigators to review notebooks he believed to be his personal property . Correct. With respect to the comparison of former President Trump and i believe this is on page 11, that is still in your executive summary, and i will just read part of this to you. Unlike the evidence from mr. Biden the allegations set forth in the indictment of President Trump prevent serious aggravating facts. Most notably after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, mr. Trump did the opposite. He not only refused to return documents but he also to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. In contrast, mr. Biden turned in information to the department of justice and consented to searches. Set for a voluntary interview and cooperated with this. I see that language. Inspect do you still stand by that . I do, sir. This is your report. You take full responsibility for everything in the documents . I do. I stand by every word. Okay. I want to ask you a couple of questions. One is with respect to the surprising one of questions that you got right before we broke about guardianship. It seems to me like a dramatic stretch of anything that was remotely involved in your report. Does you did you reason a kind of issues about President Biden needing guardianship or anything along those lines . Nothing like that appeared in my report. So, you made the point about him being an elderly man with poor memory but are you saying, did you say anywhere in your report that not only was he he would be unfit for Public Office and to handle his own finances. My report did not include information on those issues. You, for your testimony. The chairman from virginia is recognize. I would just point out that mr. Ivey, he had access to every transcript. He has complete access to that. What we dont have is access to the transcripts of all of the witnesses. We only have mr. Biden and we dont have access to the audiotapes. Will the gentleman yield . You are speaking during my time. Thank you, gentleman. Thank you for being here. Your story is an impressive what and your achievements are impressive as well. You have been a prosecutor for many years . Yes. I was only a prosecutor for a couple of years but i remember my record in jury trial. Do you remember yours . It would take a while to reconstruct but i think it get there. Is it above 500 . Yes. I am curious because the evidence that you outlined in your report is pretty significant. When it comes to evidence that after the vice presidency and reading from the report, mr. Biden willfully retained documents on afghanistan and on classified documents that he stored at unsecured locations in his home. There is evidence that he willfully retained and had a strong motive to keep such classified documents. You outlined what the motive is. Can you tell me, what is the motive for keeping the thanksgiving day memo . One of the moto motives is the issue of whether or not a true surge should be sent to afghanistan in 2009 with a hotly contested and debated issue within the obama administration. And one in which, within vice President Biden had a significant role and he felt strongly about. President biden, he believed that the search was a mistake in one of the record to show that he was right about afghanistan and his critics were wrong. And his judgment was sound when it mattered most. Is that right . That language sounds familiar. That is pretty significant in terms of a motivating factor for retaining documents. Wouldnt you say . That is a factor that the jury would assess whether or not President Biden had criminal intent. I know that President Biden was working with a ghost rider on the book, correct . Correct. Your investigation concluded that one President Biden began work on his memoir. At what time did your investigation conclude . With respect to the second book in 2017 we identified evidence that he began recorded conversations in 2016 before the end of his vice presidency. And while the author he went through information nearly 1 isnt it true that he led a lot of classified act information regarding the actions of use regarding relating to the foreign country. I believe that occurred and it was captured in 2017. I believe that was april. And, Mark Zwonitzer was aware of your appointment as special counsel . Yes. Upon learning of the investigation, Mark Zwonitzer deleted digital recordings of his conversations with mr. Biden . Yes. You asked about this and he admitted that part of his motive was because he was aware there was an investigation . Correct. Did this conduct by Mark Zwonitzer raise suspicions . We did. We considered it to be significant evidence to follow up on. Are would argue that you had significant evidence surrounding the retention of these documents. The storage of these documents and even though there was a bit of a disconnect between what a reasonable jury could conclude, the intent was there and the motive was there for the book. For exoneration and i would argue that you had enough to move forward. Time has expired. I yield back. The gentle lady from dashes recognize. Thank you special counsel mr. Hur for staying. I think it speaks to the possibility and prominence afforded by this nation that you as a child of immigrants sit here as special counsel. And i sit here as a member of congress. There is a lot that has been said today and part of the challenge that i have is trying to translate this for i constituents back home. I want to start with sort of a top line. You were tasked with identifying whether criminal conduct occurred regarding classified documents. And after over one year of investigation, including 150 witness interviews and over 7 million documents reviewed, you wrote in the first sentences of the executive summary, we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted in this matter. We would reach the same Conclusion Even if the department of Justice Policy did not against a sitting president. Are those your words . Yes. Lets get into it. Mr. Hur, at any time did the doj leadership or anyone else attempt to influence you. No. Do you believe that you were independent and thorough in your report . Yes. Do you think it is true that you received no pressure from attorney general garland . That is correct. Is it true that you had all of the resources that you needed in order to conduct interviews and to conduct your investigation and complete your report . Yes. Is it true that you recommended that the attorney general declined to charge President Biden . I submitted a report to the attorney general explaining my decision that criminal charges were not warranted. So you said we conclude that the evidence does not establish the guilt of mr. Biden beyond reasonable doubt. Is it true that you report ultimately concluded that the evidence did not support a finding beyond a reasonable doubt that President Biden willfully retained ossified material . Yes. Is it true that President Biden cooperated with your investigation . Yes. Is it true that President Biden set with you for an interview. He sat for interviews over two days. Is it true that President Biden allowed the fbi to conduct thorough searches of his home and his beach house . Yes. Is it true that your report found multiple possible as to why the classified documents ended up where they did . As part of our analysis we walked through a number of different. As you said on page 6, in addition to the shortage of evidence, there innocent explanations that we cannot refute. I see that language. Yes. The report reads with one exception, there is no record of the department of justice for mishandling classified documents from his own administration. The exception is former President Trump. Am i reading that correctly . Yes. Is it correct that your report recommends no charges and that would be the case even if he were not a sitting president . Correct. So, what we have had today is hour after hour after hour of trying to distract us from the clear statements that come through this report. You yourself have said multiple times today that there was no a 10 to obstruct justice by the president , by the department of justice, by the attorney general. You had all of the resources that you needed to conduct a fair and thorough investigation and report and that what you concluded was in fact, the evidence was not sufficient to bring charges against the president for mishandling documents. Thank you for being here today. I yield back. The gentleman from South Carolina is back. Mr. Hur, why did officials go looking in the first place . Why did they do it . What we identified during investigation is that at a certain date, members of the president ial staff went to the biden center to get a better handle on what kinds of evidence what kind of evidence was that the biden center. Were they looking for documents that were classified . Or was it a broader initial look . My understanding is it was a broader initial look and i am looking at chapter 14 of my report about a visit from march 2021 to the biden center. In march 2021 was this after the Justice Department began their investigation into President Trump . I confess, i do not have the date of the beginning of the investigation at hand. I believe it was the same month. One thing that i think it is important for people to understand as President Biden has this information everywhere. Which location was that it at . Was it at the transocean office . Was it at the temporary center in chinatown . Or was it at its Current Location where it sits the final location in dc . I believe it is described in 257, at the biden Center Current and permanent location. So, classified information was there. Is that fair to say . The initial Transition Office and after the vice presidency and the Pen Biden Center after office and then his permanent office. Then you had the university of delaware library. The university of delaware biden center and then you have multiple places at his home . Correct. The garage, the den, the office upstairs, and the office downstairs. Correct. So that is like nine different places . I have lost count. I comparison, the democrats want to keep comparing, secret service protection, i dont know that there anywhere else. Are they . I am not aware of other locations. I yield back to the gentleman from South Carolina. Thank you chairman. I know i have two minutes left. Mr. Hur, how would you define willful . With respect to the intent of willfulness, what a jury has to conclude if somebody knew that their conduct was illegal when the did that. So it is intentional. It is not accidental or involuntary . Correct this is where i disagree with your portion of the report. You have a gentleman that serves 36 years in the senate. I have only been here a year but i understand the importance of handling classified information. He served eight years as Vice President. It came to the attention the classified briefing books had not been returned and even if they were returned some of the content was missing. The same year the executive secretary raise that nearly 30 of the classified briefing books from the first several months of 2010 were missing. President biden failed to return compartmented information content from a trip that he took to the hamptons. Today you were not able to determine if those documents were recovered . Correct. So, when does willfulness factor in . Is it now in his diminished mental capacity . Or when it was he was serving as senator and Vice President. In jury would be assessing the mental state of President Biden and his intent as to whether or not he had willfulness at the time it was committed. I think everyone can see the transgression of this and the difference between then candidate biden and vice President Biden and what is happening now. Also the chairman talked about this in his comments. There are many reasons to hold these documents. In fact he disclosed some of this information to his post writer. I think there could have been willfulness. It is 2016 and there have been three candidates to run for president. All three have had allegations of issues surrounding the retention and holding of classified documents and, mr. Hur, only one has been charged and that is mr. Trump. That is why people think this is a two tiered version of justice. The gentleman yields back. The chair recognizes the gentleman from. I will wait. First of all, what i have observed in this hearing is that one side things youre trying to get President Trump elected and the other side things youre trying to get President Biden elected. I served as prosecutor for 20 years and i know you will take group from both sides. You must be doing a great job during your report and investigation if you have convinced both sides if that you were in the middle. I commend you for your background and i would have loved to have met chief justice rehnquist. What a hero to conservatives and americans and that mustve been a great opportunity. But when both sides attack you, my admonition is welcome to congress. I do have a question that goes along the lines of what mr. Armstrong was asking you earlier. I am confused about willfulness. In your review of willfulness willfulness. It is clear at the time President Biden knew that he had classified documents. He told, after he left the vice presidency, he told his biographer, his post writer, is classified documents are in the basement. He had the mental state that he had classified documents and he knew that his basement is not a secure area so, at that point in time, if he said, i have got to call the archives or secret service or somebody to get these documents taken away, perhaps but i dont see where the willfulness is missing when he had those. Heap is of classified documents and he held them in a nonsecure area and he did so knowingly. He knew he had unsecured documents. Wheres the willfulness . Well, i certainly agree with you that the evidence in the form of the audio recorded statement, where the president said his ghost writer found that , that is evidence that any prosecutor would present as significant evidence in a case if this went to trial. Reasonable jurors might well infer that President Biden formed criminal intent aced on that piece of evidence. What we did in the report was to try to work through exhaustively, you need to assess , with a cold i, the strength and the weaknesses of your case. What we tried to do in our report was to walk through potential arguments that would be presented by defense lawyers and to determine how jurors would receive and perceive the evidence including but not limited to evidence relating to the memory gaps of the president that were in various states of cash. How do you overcome the recording that he says he has classified documents. He knows how he has to treat classified documents and he says he has those in the basement. What is the defense to that . It is a made up recording . It was in his voice . Everyone was wrong . How do you defend that particular fact. I did a lot of tax cases and you had to determine a pattern of conduct and in this case he had documents in a lot of places. Have you overcome those . We walk through a number of evidentiary gaps as well as a number of different defense arguments that the president that could present at trial. The first is, arguments of the jury that he said, he just sent all of the classified stuff downstairs but then soon thereafter, he forgot about the documents. He convince the jury that he willfully and he knew that it was illegal to keep the documents again. The second argument that we considered is that perhaps these documents never actually were in virginia. Perhaps the documents were there by virtue of that or himself having those documents at the delaware home. From the time that he was still Vice President all the way through the time of their being discovered. Finally, another theory in the report is that there were two theories of classified documents relating to afghanistan in the delaware garage of biden. Contained intelligence information and the other it would be a more difficult task to convince a jury a contained that information. Perhaps he was referring to the one folder that did not contain defense information but it would be difficult for the one that did contain National Defense information. I just laid a lot on you but we do our best to explain that in the report. Thank you. I yield back. At the gentleman yields back. Thank you. There has been a lot of time. I ask you a brief indulgence. Your brief indulgence to ask a question. You dont get another round. If someone yields their time, they can. You dont get to go two rounds. Im not trying to go two rounds. Your request is on the record. All of the democrats have spoken. I ask as was stated on page 1 of the executive summary, we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted in this matter and we would reach the same Conclusion Even a policy did not. [ overlapping speakers ] i ask that this be added to the record that mr. Hur stated that biden could not recall when his son died. I asked about this ended indicates that there was no mercy given to mr. Biden and no mercy given to him. Objection. So entered. Even though there was not a question, mr. Hur, do you want to respond . No, sir. Mr. Hur, thank you for your time today and we wish the best to you and your family. This concludes todays hearing. Without objection, you may submit additional written questions for the witness or additional materials. Without objection, the hearing is adjourned