Dame of 19 century after american historians. A frequent speaker and moderator. Our lincoln forum, a member of the forums executive committee and recognized star on various cspan programing. Edna holds degrees Hampton University and the university of illinois and a ph. D. From the university of maryland she is a professor of history emerita at howard, where she also as the chair of the Department History and interim dean, the college of arts and sciences she is the author of lincoln and emancipation and coauthor of the emancipation proclamation. Three views she was a recipient of the john wise simon a Lifetime Achievement award from the Ulysses Grant association and was previously inducted as a of the Lincoln Academy of illinois and awarded the order of lincoln the states highest honor by the governor of illinois. For her study of the president and the civil war. Matthew norman is, associate professor of history at the university of cincinnati blue. Ash College Educated knox college and the university of illinois, urbanachampaign, where earned his ph. D. He served earlier as acting of civil war era studies and a visiting professor right here at gettysburg college. Matt has contributed chapters to our beloved abraham African American war veterans and Abraham Lincoln, war and memory and, fraught with great difficulty. Lincoln and reconstruction. His labors of love also include serving coeditor with fred lee hord. Of knowing him by heart. Africanamericans on Abraham Lincoln. This segment of our Program Allows us to eavesdrop on a conversation between and matt as they discuss the heartwarming highly emotional and keenly important relationship between president lincoln and black americans who knew him by. I give you professors and norman. Good morning can everyone hear me . Excellent. Excellent. Benjamin quarrels, who was a pioneer africanamerican history in author of the book lincoln and the , along with several other books like the and the civil war, Frederick Douglass. He did a book on africanamerican in the american revolution. So and a number of books. He was a true pioneer in africanamerican history. I he said many, many years ago in the sixties that lincoln became lincoln because of the. And it was the latter who first reflected the image of lincoln. That was to live. In other words, it was the africanamerican and who actually created and encouraged the great emancipator image. And so quarrels, i think, was was partially right even before lincoln issued the proclaimed, Frederick Douglass had said that enslaved people had credited lincoln with some things that he had not achieved yet. And so they were already predisposed to see lincoln as a great emancipator. And in the decades that followed the war, black leaders fed the emancipator image of lincoln for the purpose of both encouraging africanamericans to be worthy of lincolns sacrifice and to remind white americans that they should finish the work that they imagined. Lincoln begun meaning securing, but once the image was accepted by americans, there was no room for criticism of any action or in action. Lincoln took that involved black people. So when . In 1922, w. E. B. Dubois wrote a very assessment of that was less than he was roundly attacked, and he actually had to write what some of us think was a retraction to sort of smooth the ruffled feathers a bit. And so one of the things that i remember him saying that i think we all need to remember, he says lincoln big enough to be inconsistent that just because he didnt do as quickly as some African Americans and other americans would have, there was so much that he had done. So to criticize is one aspect of him did mean that africanamerican or anyone else saw him unworthy of praise. So what professor norman and professor who could not be with us today, what theyve accomplished with this book and i do absolute utterly love the book. Theres so much here for us to to put out. I had to. What theyve accomplished in this volume is volume is to show that africanamericans always had a nuanced view of lincoln and that the of africanamericans toward. Our 16th president was never monolithic. And so, you know, we sometimes think that there was a period time when africanamericans loved lincoln and then all of a sudden africanamericans hated lincoln or didnt care much about him at all. And what theyve shown is there never that kind of demarcation that they had always been criticism him that always been praise of him. And to this day, that still continues. If i have, i interrupt it correctly. But you were saying so if you would comment on a little bit how how accurate was quarrels about africanamericans being responsible for this image . Can you all hear me okay . Okay. Well, fred and i really inspired by his work and back when i was kind of ending my tenure here at gettysburg, fred contacted. Hed been my professor as, an undergraduate at knox, and he said and he had read some of the things id published. And he said, well, we do a project together. I said, okay, fred, what did you have in mind . And he said, well, what about something africanamericans, lincoln . I said, thats a great topic. Can we narrow it down a little . And and he said, well, has ever done an anthology of black writings on lincoln. And and i said, no, thats thats a great idea. And so we started working on this in 2011 and what we put together a is an anthology of black writings on lincoln that begins with Frederick Douglass in 1858 when he first takes notice of lincoln. And when we started this project earlier in the century we thought a good stopping point would 2009 with the lincoln and president obamas speech in springfield. And so what we found hundreds of documents and the the size of the book might suggest that we didnt leave anything but we actually did we were we we made i think i hope judicious select ones. But when corell says that lincoln became because of africanamericans, i hope what people can see with the over hundred 50 voices weve assembled here is just how important africanamericans have been in shaping how we remember Abraham Lincoln, particular as the great emancipator. And so you can see how these views evolved over how things changed, perhaps how things didnt change. And so i think quarrels absolutely correct. There to suggest the central city africanamericans in we view lincoln and i hope that that people will look at this book and see see a different side of. I was surprised by or pleasantly by the diversity of voices. We as historians have a tendency to rely on Frederick Douglass when were looking at how africanamericans are respond to what lincoln is doing. And i think we do that because was so eloquent and he was so prolific. His about absolutely everything. He had three newspapers you know so you can find those kinds of things easily. But what youve done here is youve included a lot of people that most of you will have never of. And these are ordinary people, soldiers, ministers others are mothers writing to lincoln about their and telling him you know, he needs to protect them more. Soldiers writing about unequal and that kind of thing. And youre also looking a diversity of sources in terms of letters, speech is editorials, poetry, even. And so i think it gives the volume a kind of flavor that we dont in the in the regular, you know, history books. So i was very much pleased that. Tell us a little bit about the people who you have been included. Well, before we do that, tell us you chose. There were so sources you could have used. How did you choose these . There are theres that. When we got into it, we had no idea. I mean, we had some idea, but we had no idea about the depth and breadth of sources that we would find. And so in the selection process, we we didnt have an agenda other than to present people with a wide variety of views. So youll find soldiers some of whom are very critical of lincoln, some of whom are very favorable towards. So we have people who are very positive people who are very negative. Douglas, of course, is in there, but hes just one of over 150. So theres theres people like amos beeman, who was a congregational minister and he commemorates First Anniversary of the emancipation proclamation in 1864. And i think he reflects a lot of this complexity that we see where he says that this the emancipation proclamation makes lincoln but he also says that lincoln is far from being a man in the human science of freedom. And i really love that phrase, human science of freedom. So the emancipation proclamation in itself was not perfect. Lincoln was not perfect. And africanamericans out these imperfections. But at the same time, they work to make the proclamation more perfect through, their words and through their actions. Absolutely. I got the impression, your book, that the response of africanamericans lincoln it was not so much it was not linear terms of, you know, love for lincoln. 1863 and dislike of lincoln after Lauren Bennetts first 1968 article in ebony and then his book forced into glory. It was more about what lincoln was doing or was not doing at any given time. And so you see the shift in attitude as a consequence. So, for instance if lincoln is talking about colonization, hes more likely to be criticized. Absolutely. They are some people who are supporting his colonization schemes because africanamericans were involved in colonies before lincoln decided to this, but they saw it not as colonizing as immigration. And so saw it very differently. If he was talking, say, about just emancipation, his views on emancipation. And we know that lincolns views on were that it should gradual it be done with the consent of the owners of enslaved people that. It should be compensated not to the enslaved person, but compensation to the owners and colonization. And so there many and there were Many Americans, just africanamericans, but there were Many American eyes, mostly abolitionist who felt that he was slow. They didnt understand why lincolns idea of deportation, his his his name for colonization and why that needed to go with emancipation, why there couldnt be immediate emancipation. So you have a lot of people respond ending to that. This idea of accepting black soldiers into the military. Many, many africanamericans writing to him, encouraging him to accept black men as and of course lincoln and congress in general did not feel that black men would be brave to stand toe to toe with their former owners on the battlefield. Boy, did they prove wrong. And eventually, because the union army needed men, they decide to bring black men in. And then once black were in the military, there was the issue unequal pay and unequal treatment. So if you could talk us a bit about how black people responded, some of those issues. Sure. Well, its very interesting when douglass first takes notice of lincoln, 1858, its in response to lincolns divided speech. And douglass is very favorable. But then when when lincoln is nominated and then in his first inaugural address, douglass and other africanamericans are quite critical. They think, well, weve i thought elected an antislavery president. Why is he offering all of concessions to the rebels . But then once lincoln issues preliminary proclamation, its really remarkable how how begin to change. And you have the enlistment of black and some of them. One of my favorite items in the book, a letter from john proctor and in South Carolina. And hes freed by the emancipation proclamation and he writes to lincoln in the spring of 1863. And he talks about how hes been freed, how he has in the army, how hes looking forward to a little bit of revenge on his on his masters former master. But but then he says to lincoln, he apologizes for his writing. Hes writing he says, the only education i had i stole from my master, former master. And then he says. My one regret is that i wont have the pleasure seeing you with my own eyes. And then he writes to lincoln, please remember me to my fellow citizens of the united states. And i think that letter from encapsulates how the emancipation proclamation and the enlistment of black soldiers could be. So its a very moving. But then we also have letters public letters written by a soldier in the fifth massachusetts cavalry. He wrote under a pseudonym, i wish know exactly who he was, but he wrote under a pseudonym. And he writes in an open letter to a newspaper in the summer, 1864. So the Election Campaign is starting to ramp up and says, i dont think black people should support lincoln. He supported colonization. Black soldiers arent being treated equally. He has a long list of reasons black people should not support lincoln. And then the democrats nominate general and the soldier writes. A follow up letter a few weeks later. And he says, i still dont like lincoln. That much, but hell be way better than than mcclellan. So you see in those two examples, the the differences. And then as you move forward in time, it becomes even more fascinating for us to see these these different nuanced views of lincoln. Certainly you have you have douglass. But then you have others. Theres theres one i really like from 1909. And so you find africanamericans celebrating lincolns birthday before white people. But then in 1909, for the centennial, this is a big deal and an increasing of white people are also celebrating. Lincolns birthday. But what happens by 19 nine is you have white southerners celebrating lincolns birthday as well. And you see lincolns image being used as kind of a bridge to reconciliation. And at the same time see black voices pushing against that. And theres a professor. Hes a professor, virginia. His name is john gandy. And he, i think, really these nuances and complexities is where he says that lincoln supported colonization. He he waited a while before issuing the emancipation proclamation. But lincoln believed the declaration of independence, and he believed that it applied to people at a time very few white people were willing to to hold those beliefs. So just in that one item from 1990, you see these how you can you can admire lincoln and praise him. And he says lincoln will be immortal. But then at the same time he says hes hes not perfect. Hes not perfect now. Although we acknowledge that is this nuance attitude about lincoln. I think we would have to agree that sometime between 1863 and 2023, there has been shift in terms of about lincoln. And historians have africanamerican attitudes about that. Its and historians some historians have said its a consequence of black having their own heroes. Dr. King and in other who were part of the civil rights that africanamericans became aware of the role that they played in terms liberation, both being in the army, in the navy and, just liberating themselves as well. What do you think the reason is that there has been sort by a downturn . I dont think its as bad as some historians have suggested, but there certainly been a bit of a shift. Yes, i think it that its been maybe exaggerated a bit when we do have lauren seminal essay from 1968 that came out in ebony magazine asks the provocative question, was abe lincoln a white supremacist . And bennett emphatically, yes, yes. He was. But i think the the mistake that people fall into and i hope book helps helps clear this up that bennetts an voice and you have to you have to account for what hes saying but hes one voice out of many. And so when you look at the 1960s. Yes. Is a very important, tumultuous in our history. And do see people like bennett, julius lester, malcolm, theyre all very critical of lincoln. But at the same, you have benjamin corales publishing his book and you have john hope franklin, who made a really great speech here in gettysburg on the anniversary of lincolns gettysburg address in 1965. And in that speech, franklin says hes responding to. The White Citizens Councils and had published these editorials, quoting from lincolndouglas debates, the part of the debates the fourth debate at charleston, where lincoln says that he doesnt believe in the social and political equality of the white and black races and the White Citizens Council was using this to argue that if lincoln were alive in the 1960s, he would be opposed to, like the Voting Rights act, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and franklin, you would have to be deranged to to Abraham Lincoln into a racist who would support the White Citizens Councils. So but i do think you you see, even in back to the 1930s when you africanamericans are beginning to support it, the Democratic Party, and theyre leaving the party of lincoln. And we have a speech from arthur mitchell, whos the first africanamerican democrat in congress. And he gets a really hard time from republican. Theres a republican from kentucky just denounces him on the floor of the house. How dare you leave the party of lincoln . This is an act of disloyalty. And so theres a lot of interesting things happening in the thirties as well, when when africanamerican voting behavior begins to change and many are leaving the party of lincoln. But then we also have an example from 1936 and and this is where Historical Research be very serendipitous. And i found this in newspaper and its a woman living in terre haute, indiana named grace evans. And and she gives this speech where shes saying, im not leaving the party of lincoln is the reason why im able to have a marriage in and do things that ive done in my life. And theres way im leaving the Republican Party. And i this to fred. And he well, grace evans in my fathers church. So freds freds father was minister in indiana. And as it turned out this this woman was a member of, freds fathers church. So she shes in the book as well. And course. Excuse me. Of course, africanamericans leaving the Republican Party the 1930s because the Republican Party is becoming more and more conservative and they are supporting know justices who are. And theres one instance where mothers are sent to europe to ask to visit graves of their their sons whove died in world war. And white women are sent under regular transportation and black women are sent with inferior. So you have those kinds of things that are occurring. And the Democratic Party certainly looks better. Africanamericans, by that time. And certainly it doesnt help. It hurt that Eleanor Roosevelt steps in from time to time, you know, to do things that are very gratifying to africanamericans. You notice i didnt say franklin because, the story is still out about frank. I mean, you know, theres theres some things he did, but there some other things. But it was eleanor who actually . Africanamericans embraced. I think, speaking of the 1930s. You an opportunity to look at the wpa slave and so you know we can assume during the war an immediate lie after the war africanamericans who had been enslaved would certainly see lincoln probably as a great emancipator. But what are they thinking after theyve been out of slavery for a number of years and in the middle of the depression . Mm. Thats a fascinating collection of sources. And i went through all of those interviews and youll find in the book some, some selections dont we dont include everything but i hope we include a kind of a representative sample of those. Fascinating interviews. So you have some people, as you might expect, who say lincoln is the great emancipate of his father, abraham, grateful for all that he did. And then there are there are people who say, well, he he may have freed us, but he didnt want to. And when he did he didnt really do anything to help us get established as as freed people. And then what really me about the wpa interviews are the people who say that they met lincoln and lincoln emerges as this kind of mythological character. And so they talk about this shabbily dressed man visiting them before the civil war. And one of them says, well, this shabbily dressed guy, a gold cane behind the door. And then he left. And then he wrote back and he said, im Abraham Lincoln. And so you have these stories about these encounters with lincoln, which didnt happen. But shows just how powerful lincoln is as a as an image. Hes become a part of africanamerican folklore. Yes, it is just fascinating. You know, lincoln shows up. He has dinner. Yes. Or he sleeps in the masters bed. You know its you know, that should have been a riot if it had actually happened. But, yeah, its just amazing how they sort incorporate him into culture. Yes. Just amazing. Hmm. What, if anything, did you find that was surprising about of these sources . Mm hmm. Well, we we really werent sure what we were getting into. And when we started we made, like, a master list of people we thought we would want to include, that we would probably have something to say. But once we started digging into newspaper and periodically magazines and other just the the very city and the depth and how persistent was over time and we look a lot at emancipation Day Celebration and how important those were and we have examples of speeches that are given at these celebrate firsts over decades and you see both of lincoln you see some criticism. And theres also always references to the Important Role black soldiers play. So i think the thing that impressed me the most was just the the of of these sources and and just the depth of feeling that that endured for so long. I was impressed the the source that you i cant remember the name was it it was it call learned to dunbars wife i believe. Alice dunbar. Yeah i think she was the one i guess she was talking about Lincoln Douglass as both of them as emancipated, both of them as a minister. So could you talk a little bit about that . Sure yeah, thats thats an item from the 1920s, february and so lincolns birthdays in february and then theyre commemorating douglasss birthday in february as well. And alice dunbar, nelson is about how lincoln is a great emancipator. And we have to remember, keep his memory alive, honor. But we also have to commemorate douglass as well. And so what you find with her example, also the we have some interesting documents from members of the National Association of colored women. Mm hmm. And they were very interested in, both lincoln and douglass in the 1920s. And they would have these Lincoln Douglas days, where they would get together and make speeches and talk about the significance of both lincoln and douglass. So theyre kind of twin twin emancipator. And shes saying that black children certainly should honor lincoln, but they should honor douglass as well. They should honor one of their own. I thought her piece was one of the best that was included. And are marvelous sources in here. But that one really struck home. Yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you this. Why did you think americans are so invested in lincoln as, the great emancipator . I you know, i always know when cspan is broadcasting something that i said in some program because i start getting hate mail as a consequence. So and some of it is absolutely. I cant describe it. I cannot express the words here on things that my tinder your ears had never heard before. I mean, i heard it but it my name wasnt attached to it. Okay. But people are very sincere tive about any kind of it. Doesnt even have to be criticism of lincoln. But anything that would suggest that he was not a perfect human being, that his actions may have been right for the country at the time, but were not necessarily right for africanamerican. Because some people as a consequence of his delay. There were people who were returned to their owners who had escaped to the union lines and that kind of thing. Why do you think as a nation we are so invested in this . Idea of the great emancipator. Do we have a couple hours . I know we dont, but. Well, its a great. And it makes me think of an item we have from elizabeth, who was a friend of mrs. Lincolns and, then wrote a book about her time at the house called behind the scenes. And we have excerpts from that book. But im thinking of an interview that she gave the turn of the 20th century. And ive thought a lot about this interview. And this is, i think, one of my favorite items in the book where. Keckley had been enslaved, but she was able to obtain her freedom long before lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation. But she that only people who suffered the horror of slavery can truly appreciate the meaning of emancipation. And so the the and ive devoted my career youve devoted your career to to this great topic of lincoln and the civil war and all of its meanings. And the more i it, the bigger it gets if that makes any sense. The more it gets. And so when look at the voices weve assembled, we have plenty of of people and booker t is maybe the most obvious where he will. Well, lincolns proclamation freed me and black people. Lincoln a debt of gratitude. And what what washington would often do in his speeches is he would recite a lot of statistics about the progress that africanamericans made since the emancipation proclamation as a way of kind of vindicating lincolns decision and the fact that washing hand felt like he had to do that, i think says a lot about the unfinished nature of the emancipation proclamation and the struggles we continue to have today over how, remember, the civil war and what lincolns legacy really is. And so i think its for a lot of people, its well, lincoln freed the slaves, and thats the end of the story. And that africanamericans should be grateful for that. And if theres any kind of criticism of lincoln, if you leave the republican in the 1930s, you are betraying his legacy. And i hope we show with all of these different speeches and writings that that that this story is is like a monument. Its a different kind of monument to lincoln. Its not a bronze or marble monument. Its a monument in words. And its a very complex, also fluid monument. Its an honest assessment of man. You know, im struck by the that i take white historians can criticize without a lot of problems when an africanamerican historian gets it. It seems to really set the world on fire. I received a letter from a lady many years ago who, said she was british, but she felt it necessary to write. To me, this is before emails. So you can imagine how long ago that was as she wrote to me, said, you know, how dare criticize mr. Lincoln. He you know, he freed you and i thought, lady, do you know about this . You know, i think, you know, in that even from me, how do you even. And what about the role of the british in terms of bringing African People to this country in the slave trade . But i didnt i my colleagues told me to leave it alone, that you dont in that kind of discussion because you never get out of it. But it does become a problem for africanamericans who are trying to get to the truth, the truth without trying to to something that, you know, its not that we want to be negative, but we want to be truthful. And its important that africanamericans know that they have a heritage of saving them as well. You have to wait for someone else to ride in on a white horse and, save you. And thats exactly what happened during the war. Lincoln was central to black freedom, no question that. But africanamericans were very much involved. The process as well. And thats all. Think theyre trying to say. Theyre trying to say its a partnership. Yes, a partnership. Absolutely. And you know, you mentioned the dubois from 1922 in the crisis where he gets into all kinds of trouble. But dubois says, well, im just trying get at the truth, which is what any good historian would want to do is to get at the and he says that he says he loves lincoln and he loves lincoln. Lincoln is complicated and thats why hes a human being like we all are and thats why loves him. And so this business about africanamericans criticize lincoln one of my really important mentors at knox college professor, rodney davis. He once said and i was much younger at the time. And i didnt really get it, but i think i get it now. And it was when Lauren Bennetts book out forced into glory and was very controversial. We have some excerpts from it in there. And in that book, bennetts says that our identity as americans is in one way or another shaped by what we think lincoln, slavery and the civil war. But that bennett is very critical and professor said to me, well if if someone like david donald had written a book like this, it would become gospel. Yes, absolutely. And so i and at the time i dont know i dont know what hes done. But after doing book, i know exactly what he meant by that. Which goes to your point, criticism, lincoln. I think that probably theres investment in lincoln as the great emancipator. Because its a part of that whole american exceptionalism. I its your leaders have to be perfect they have to be so different from leaders any place else. And thats never been the case in this. Weve always had very complex leaders. That doesnt mean some of them havent done good, but their because theyre human beings. And so i think if we if we approached lincoln from that perspective, wed a much clearer understanding of how valuable he to the nation and to African American freedom, rather than trying impose a certain image on people and discarding anything else that might have been involved in the liberation of black people, and certainly what Booker T Washington is doing in some other black leaders of a certain era, they are lincolns name to get white americans to sort of go along with with the advancement black people. So they may or may not even believe what theyre saying, but they understand that if they use lincolns name, they may be able to get further along. Yeah. You know, crafting a usable past. Yes. And one of my favorite documents is from a woman, m kravitz simpson, whos active in the the National Association of colored women. And she gives this speech in the early 1920s celebrating both Lincoln Douglass. And this is at a time when the u. S. Senate has filibustered an antilynching bill but approved the construction of a loyal slave monument in washington so the nrc w was lobbying for the antilynching bill against the loyal slave monument. And she gives this very moving speech where she says, i wish to god that Abraham Lincoln were president today because while Congress Might ignore the constitution and the new amendments, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, lincoln would enforce the declaration of independence. And then she talks about speech. And this is something that that really struck me in doing book is certainly theres lots of commentary about the emancipation proclamation, a lot of great stuff, the gettysburg address, the inaugural address. But then talks about, i think, a kind of an underrated speech of lincolns, which one that he gave in the response to the dred scott decision in june 57. And she quotes from that speech about lincolns views on the declaration and how the declaration includes all people, regardless of of where they come from or what their skin color happens to be. So yes. You see this desire to have someone like lincoln he do the right thing in 1913, you the semi centennial of the emancipation proclamation and also of of course the battle of gettysburg and lincolns gettysburg address. And theres a big reunion thats held here in the summer of 1913, this big blue gray reunion. And theres a really great piece we have from the editor of, the baltimore afroamerican, where he comments on this and he quotes at length from gettysburg address. And then he says you know, what would lincoln think, if he were alive today and would see that his his vision of america democracy of the people by the people for the people is now being interpreted as for only white people. Yes. And he would be appalled. And i happen to think right about that. But i think my favorite quote from lincoln, i mean, i love the second inaugural address, but theres a piece in i cant even remember the moment because i have an old brain and i can always bring to mind what i to say. But theres theres a speech he gives. And im sure that some of you remember. No, it everyone should have a fair chance. The race of life. I think that speaks volumes. And i think if we keep that in mind, then we certainly can appreciate all that lincoln stood for exceptional. Do we should. We take questions now or do we have time to read a couple of passages from the book. Yes, we do have time. A few questions. So if you want to step forward with your questions at this time. Hi. Hi. Im paul. Im from denver. Maybe because my background is in macroeconomics, but i, i always was wonder why historians dont make more of the point that 180,000 black troops. During 1863 so its a less two years of the war. They bring 180,000 men and im there were a few women in there, too, but 100 times that that that 180 regiments that overwhelmed the southerners who are losing. They dont have men to bring in. And thats the men that are winning wars that are feeding the white troops are pushing. I dont see much or historians doing much of the impact of that and the force of that of blacks freeing themselves and theyre not even citizens. Theyre part of the country its like, you know, 200,000 germans came here to fight against germany. I mean, no one makes that emphasis. And i wonder why to take it. Well, lincoln certainly understood the impact that those men were and and he has this wonderful letter to to James Conkling which i think one of his great documents where, he says and hes thinking ahead to what what what will the country like once the war is over . And he says that black veterans will remember with clenched teeth, steady eye and well poised bayonet, they have helped mankind onto this great so lincoln was very much aware of that. And i certainly at the end of the 20th century and coming into this century, scholars have done a lot of really good work on african soldiers. But but i can remember and maybe im dating myself a little bit. I can remember to see the film glory in the theater, and for a lot of people that was eye opening that that there were black soldiers in the civil war and that they made a really important contribution and this speaks to a issue about how weve remembered the civil war and also how key have been forgotten kind of left behind. So i think in recent years there has been a lot more there has been that that doesnt mean that there does not need to be more. Theres certainly does. But you you didnt mention the latter part that quote the latter part that you know as black will be able to hold their heads high because they fought for the union there are some white men who bow their heads in shame that, you know, they tried to hinder it. So he understood very clearly and probably thats the reason why. Three days before the assassination and hes talking about the possible ante of Voting Rights for. Black veterans. Yeah. Yeah. That what ends up being last speech and then before that the letter that he wrote to the reconstruction governor in michael hahn that up a lot in our book that thats key in showing how lincoln is progressing hes moving towards rights for for African Americans and yeah that that conkling letter i think i have students read that i say you know that encapsulates the central issue of reconstruction that youre going to have free people and theyre going to have expectations but then you have these people will not forget that they strove to hinder it. Theyre going to continue to try and prevent this from happening again. Absolutely thats true. And the person said something about whether or not women were serving women serving in a variety of capacities, not just i dont mean serving in combat although there were a few of those doing that as well. But helping in ways, you know as nurses and in many other ways as as scouts and spies even. And theyre women who are working in the navy the red rover was one of those ships where black were were employed as nurses hired at epstein from the lincoln in dc as an example how times change and black americans take a much more nuanced view of lincoln. A few months ago we had a program marcia cole, you might know her professor. Shes a historical reenactor. She does. Charlotte scott, who was the freed slave, who donated the first 5. Her life savings to start raising money, among other freed slaves to build whats now called the emancipation memorial or the freedmans memorial. Washington, d. C. , which is a very controversial memorial. And when she when she appeared, she brought along several of her fellow reenactors, one of those women got up and said, 80 years old, she remembers in the late 1940 when her baby brother took his first steps that the whole family she went to the memorial to walk to have him walk past mr. Lincoln. And she said this was universal asl among black families at the time and it she said it died out she told me later it died out during the civil rights when people started thinking of self liberation. I just wanted to pass that to you. Maybe you want to comment. Its interesting too that Charlotte Scott was not included in the emancipation proclamation. She had already been freed by her owner, who was a unionist. Virginia. Yeah. Who went to ohio. Because he couldnt stomach being, you know, a part of the confederacy. So though she had her freedom before the proclamation, she still felt that she needed to do something to honor him. Thanks. Thats a great story. I hadnt heard that i know that that lincoln park was the site of a lot of commemorative activities long after Frederick Douglass dedicated monument. And so we have an item memorial day speech from mercer langston where he refers to lincoln as the angel of emancipation emancipation. Hi, im Bonnie Martin and im a dozen at the lincoln shrine, redlands, california, and county historical commissioner and thank you for a great discussion. My question is how sincere do you think lincoln in his support of colonization and how much perhaps was it a practical consideration to make emancipation more to the white population population . Well thats a great question and. We still argue about it today. My response is if if if lincoln was really serious about colonization, he did a rotten job of it. Okay. So but he did send people some people that about 100 people died there. But he did send a ship to pick up the adams arrived. He did . Yeah. Yeah. Hi, im gordon bird from washington d. C. In your book and you mentioned it briefly, you talked about that. We want to our leaders be. Perfect. And in your book you have a notation from that says i cannot swallow whole the view of lincoln as the great emancipate as a law professor, civil rights lawyer and as an African American, i am fully aware his limited views on race. Thats a quote that you have from barack obama and said one of the things that fascinated him about lincoln was his imperfect actions and that lincoln knew had imperfections and as a man and what made him so impressive to him. So could you talk a little bit more about the limitations of lincoln and how that made him more of a of a whole person, both to the Africanamerican Community and to the White Community . Well, i think that the place people often start is with the the debates, the lincolndouglas debates and lincoln is being severely criticized by, douglass and democrats, for maintaining this view that the declaration of independence does, in fact, apply all people and they extend that to include Voting Rights for black people socially quality. And of course, those views would have been very, very unpopular at that time with white people. And so lincoln is trying to clarify his position by, saying, well, i believe in natural rights for everyone, but that doesnt mean i believe in political civil rights or social. But then if you go to lincoln in 63, 64, 65, he is talking about voting. Hes talking about civil rights. Theres an order he issues his order of retaliate. And in july 1863, where he says its the duty of the government to protect of its citizens. Regardless of their skin color, which was in direct defiance of the supreme court, had ruled in in scott. So i think and this comes up a lot in the. One of the one of the things thats value to a lot about lincoln is whats called capacity for growth that you see some of these these changes taking place during the civil war. And i think its in small part because of africanamericans who are kind of helping to push him in that direction. Ted Ted Leventhal from philadelphia, all old, the civil war roundtable at a several years ago. Im trying to see if this quote is accurate that dubois said lincoln was born and i may be murdering this quote a bit a regular person and became Abraham Lincoln. Are you familiar with that quote. It was i i heard it from not this doctor major is here but from rutgers. Doctor major, youre familiar that quote, because it really struck me very interesting. Im not i dont know about that exact those exact words. I mean, the 22 item, he kind of about lincolns kind of course, of course, upbringing and that hes a southerner, you know, with southern sensibilities, but that he was big enough to be inconsistent, that he still did great things for the nation. Jeff in naples, florida and what i find fascinating is that i think it was seven states seceded before the inauguration. So it seems to me that those seven states knew was an abolitionist before he even admitted he was annapolis. They seemed to where his heart was because they didnt even wait around to hear what he had to say at the inauguration. And i wonder if if you could speak to that. Thank you. Well, while lincoln was was not abolitionist the way William Lloyd garrison or Frederick Douglass were abolitionists, he it clear that he thought slavery was a moral, evil and for defenders of slavery that, that position was absolutely. And they werent going to give lincoln a chance as president. They wanted to leave as soon as they could. So as lincoln says, his cooper union speech. Well, the only thing that would satisfy these people is if we stop saying that slavery is wrong and were not going to do that. And keep in mind, too, South Carolina was spoiling for a fight. All i mean, you know, they were talking about seceding the union decades before and they had nothing to do with slavery. So it was not surprising that South Carolina left union. And then, you know, if look at the ordinances, ordinances of secession and the supplementals to that theyre talking about, where it because we need to protect slavery. And so anybody who thinks that the civil war was about Something Else that it was about states rights and all of this all you have to do is look at those ordinances of secession and the debates that occurred and the supplemental paperwork that went along with it. You know, one by one, theyre talking that slavery is central to our way of life. And theyre not going to give it up. And though i dont i know there are people in this room who wont agree with me. Thats okay. I dont believe that lincoln would have come in and automatically started trying to slavery. He was more willing to allow slavery to at least into the 20th century. So, you know, he he believed in gradual emancipation. He was he was an antislavery man, not an abolitionist. Until the war made him an abolitionist. And i think we need keep that in mind. We have time for one last question. Okay. Just just being quick. In night and two years ago, my family celebrated, the 100th anniversary of march from the south, north to freedom and in fact this year, were having a big to do about that. Several years ago, as a matter of fact, back in. The 1960s, i took my mother on a sentimental drive and, took her back south, and we went to the church where. She was a girl. That church basically collapse. But then there were two other churches that had been built since she had left. And i noticed that pictures from the old church and from the new churches that in those pictures, there were always pictures of president lincoln and christ. And i was wondering, sitting back there and listening to you, whether or not as part of your research, you had come that kind of imagery and a number of different organizations and including churches. And i would appreciate your comments on that. And let me also that ive already purchased four books here and i think that this i think that im looking at a number five. And one of the persons who came on this trip with myself and said that, you know, youre probably looking at readings for the next year, but thats okay. You know, its meaningful reading. But if i you get your comments then. Course, i would appreciate that. Well, first, thank you for for so many copies of the book and we appreciate. But this this does come up and youll documents in there where people talk about how they proudly display portrait. Mm hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you for letting us eavesdrop on a remarkable and enlightening conversation this. Thank you very