Transcripts For CSPAN3 Fmr. 20240704

Up next, for consulted and engineering facebook testifies about the impact the company has had on children. The hearing is just over two hours. Hours. This this hearing of the subcommittee on Technology Privacy and the law will come to order. Thank you, everyone for attending. My thanks to Ranking Member and particularly to the chairman of the Judiciary Committee for giving us this opportunity. He is finally interested in this topic and i will call on him after senator holly for his remarks. We are gathered today to hear testimony from a whistleblower and engineer widely respected and admired in the industry. Not just any expert, but an engineer hired specifically by facebook to help protect against harm to children. Make recommendation for making facebook safer. We have known for more than a decade that the rights of teenagers suffering from suicide hospitalization for selfharm and depression have skyrocketed. As he knows, these numbers are more than statistics, but real people. His daughter is one of them. The former director of former directing and protective care at facebook and he will tell us about the evidence that he brought directly to the attention of the top management of facebook and meta , Mark Zuckerberg Michelle Sandberg and others. In meetings and memos, he raised an alarm about statistics showing facebook is prevalent and harm to teams. Telling Mark Zuckerberg in a memo that more than half of facebook users had bad or harmful experiences within the last week. Instead of real reform, he will testify that facebook engaged in a purposeful public strategy of destruction, denial and deception. They hate from this committee and all of congress, evidence of the harm that they knew was credible. They ignored and disregarded recommendation for making the site safer and rolled back some of the existing protections. Now, he is not the first or the only whistleblower to come forward. We have heard from francis who showed that facebooks own researchers describe instagram as a perfect storm and that it exacerbates downward spirals. Eating disorders and depression, as well. He is the first to show in documents and not just in recollection, but documents how he warned the top management of facebook and instagram of the ongoing harm that their products were causing. We are going to present those documents for the record and they show, for example, over a quarter of young teens 13 to 15 years old report receiving sexual advances on instagram and nearly a third of young teenagers have seen discrimination based on gender, religion, race and sexual orientation. A quarter of young teen, they have been bullied or threatened. Nearly a quarter of young teenagers was part report feelings about themselves and their social relationship. The type of experiences that lead to serious depression and eating disorders. When users reported harmful content to facebook, it took action where only 2 of the time. Remedies only 2 of the time. There is a history here. In august, 2021, senator black and i wrote to facebook about the impact of their products on kids. We asked, has Facebook Research ever found that its platforms and products can have a negative effect on childrens and teenagers Mental Health or wellbeing . Facebook refused to answer. In october 2021, senator blackburn and i held a hearing and was heard from francis about instagrams harm on that same day, mr. Bejar sent an email to Mark Zuckerberg , Sheryl Sandberg and other executives validating that email actually demonstrated even greater harm than more than public in a searing indictment of instagram and facebook. I ask that it be made part of the record without objection. In december 2021, then testified to the committee, subcommittee, after he met with bejar discussing the numbers and statistics relating to suicide. During the hearing, a number of us asked him about facebook promoting suicide. He knew, but didnt disclose that on a weekly basis around 7 of facebook users overall in counter context promoting suicide and selfharm with 13 to 15yearolds seeing it more often than others. There is a pattern here with facebook. It hides risks by saying things like leaving and harassment is only 0. 08 percent of content when in reality, meta executives know that 11 of those 13 to 15yearolds face bullying every single week. That is every single week on instagram. To be clear, that is millions of children and teenagers. Its not just a number. Behind every one of those numbers is a real person and teenager. A child whose life is changed maybe forever by that searing experience of bullying, eating disorder content, suicide promotion. We can no longer rely on social media. We can no longer depend on putting the blame or responsibility on parents. What is needed now is legislative reform, kids Online Safety act and senator blackburn and i have enlisted more than 45 of our colleagues and almost half of the United States senate in favor of the kids Online Safety act. The final point that i would make is that social media and particularly facebook, still fails to take that seriously. This june, the wall street journal found that instagram was hosting open markets for child abuse material and recommending pedophiles to each other. Young teenagers were being extorted and coerced into sexual acts and instagram was complicit. Mr. Bejar, you provided Mark Zuckerberg , adam and others in management with specific recommendations about this unwanted sexual contact and grassman. And those were never adopted. You have put your career on the line to come forward and experience and trusted Industry Expert whose job was to make facebook safer and your recommendations were purposefully ignored or disregarded or rejected. Im just going to remind my colleagues that we have heard from young people, as well as parents about the harm. One of them told me how many more children have to die before congress will do something . That is why we are here today. I want to thank all of my colleagues who are present. It is truly a Bipartisan Group on behalf of of this cause and i turned to Ranking Member senator holly. Thank you very much. Thank you for convening this hearing. This is such a vital hearing on a vital topic. To be honest, ticket concerns epipens. I see that you are nodding, bejar. You are a father and that subject composes. I am also a father of three. What you have brought to this committee today is something that every parent in America Needs to hear. The numbers are really stunning. One in four teenagers minor children will experience sexual solicitation on metas platforms. One in eight say they have experienced unwanted sexual advances. We are talking about children and not adults who have experienced this in last week. Of course, we know from metas own internal research that they knew the extent of the problem even as they were ignoring you and i want to turn to some of the research that we just referenced. These are metas own words from their own internal research on the effect of their own product on children and particularly young women. Quote, we make body image issues was for one in three teenage girls. Quote, teenagers blame instagram for increases in the rate of anxiety and depression. This reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups. Quote, teenagers told us that they dont like the amount of time that they spend on the app, but they feel they have to be present. They often feel addicted and know that what they are seeing is not for their Mental Health, but feel unable to stop themselves. This is the reality that meta, instagram and facebook new that these were happening. He pointed this out to them, too. Still, they did nothing. They did worse than nothing. Your testimony shows that when you brought these concerns to them and when you exposed this reality, rather than respond, they cook the books. They started telling the public, congress and every parent in america, we get 90 of unwanted sexual material, pornography, terrorism threats and we take it down. Our ai systems find it and take it down, but what you expose is that those systems are catching only a small percentage of that kind of abuse of material online. When facebook is out there promoting to the world that we are taking down the vast majority, it is simply not true. They know its not true and the statistic is designed to mislead. They are deliberately misleading parents about what is on their platform. They are deliberately misleading parents about the safety of their children online. I just want to echo something. It is time for congress to take action. It was 10 years ago for congress to take action. It is an indictment of the body to be honest with you that we have not acted and we all know the reason why, if i could start with plain talk you this morning. Big tech is the biggest and most powerful lobby in the u. S. Congress. They spend millions of dollars every year to lobby this body the truth is that as every reporter in the room knows and i hope you will reported after this hearing, they do it successfully. They successfully shut down every meaningful piece of legislation. I have only been here for four years and i have seen it repeatedly in the short time i have been here. We get all kinds of speeches and speeches on the floor, then this body will do nothing. Money, that is why. Influencing votes and a hammer hold on this process. It is time for it to be broken. The only way i know to break it is to bring the truth forward, which is why we are glad that you, bejar, are here today. This time must be different. They have armies of lawyers and lobbyists. They spend tons of money. This time must be different. Thank you. Let me follow up with senator hawleys comments. I couldnt agree more. I could not agree more. In the senate Judiciary Committee and after some graphic earrings where parents and victims came forward and told us what had happened online , we decided to take action. We pass six bills related to this issue. Child sexual abuse and six bills. Something that was miraculous, all six passed unanimously put every democrat and republican. Take a look at the folks. It is across the political spectrum. We all agree on this. What has happened . Nothing. Six waiting for a day on the calendar. Six bills waiting for a national debate. Six bills passed unanimously and they put real teeth and enforcement and i think that is why they have gone nowhere. Big tech is the big kid on the block when it comes to this issue and many other issues before us. That is the reality. I want to thank senator hawley for bringing together so many members of the hearing. Office also be our philosophy and senators in charge, do your best and take your issue that mean something to you and do your best to bring it to the American People and legislation to the floor of the United States senate. This committee is one that im counting on to be successful in this regard. Mr. Bejar, thank you for the kind of stepping up and speaking up. The only thing i would say is, its not only a parents issue, but grandparents issue, too. We see this and it scares us. Thank you. I am particularly intrigued by your idea of the survey, so we find out from the source what has really happened. My experience on capitol hill goes back so many years. I took on a tobacco issue where we are hitting her head against the wall and trying to penetrate this vast lobby at the time. The one way we managed to penetrate it is to make it a childrens issue. A lot of good things started happening. Why is it that this issue that relates to our kids so much more and more dangerous even than tobacco, why is it so difficult . Senator hawley is correct. We are fighting the biggest kid on the block. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for your leadership on this issue. I will turn to senator graham if he has any opening remarks. Very quickly and maybe number seven is the magic number of bills. The next bill, i hope thank you for doing this. It is section 230. The other bills are going nowhere until they believe that they can be sued in court. The day they know that the courtroom is open to their Business Practices, they will flood us with all kinds of ideas. Until that day comes, nothing will happen. They are going to go to the floor to die and what is the house doing . The bottom line is that society cannot take care of its children or refuses to has a bleak future. Thank you for doing this. Thanks. Senator blackburn . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Bejar, thank you for the time that you have given. As you have met with us and for being so open when you met with senator and i last week i really appreciate this. As senator blumenthal said, we have worked on this for years. He built the timeline outgoing to 2021, but the work that we were doing and looking at big tech and looking at some of the problems and lack of privacy and frustration of people not being able to control who had access to their virtual is what led us to this point to begin to look at what was happening to our children. As i told you in our meeting, the day we had that first hearing looking at what was happening online with children was like the floodgates opened. We started hearing from parents not only in tennessee and not only in connecticut, but across the country who are saying, can i please tell you my story . The reason they did this is because their hearts were breaking. Their children had committed suicide. Their children had met a drug dealer. The children had met a pedophile. Their child had met a trafficker. They had been exposed to Cyber Bullying and committed suicide. They were looking up ways to commit suicide. There are laws in the physical world that protect children from all of this, but online, it has been the wild west. As my colleagues have said, we have put this army of lobbyists for years. Big tech has proven that they are completely incapable of governing themselves and of setting up rules. Of having guidelines and designing for safety. It is so important that we move forward with this. One thing i will add, which is so important for you being here and our colleagues that want part of what we were doing, in 2021, when he came before us as the ceo of instagram indicated that they were taking steps. We find out that they were not. We find out from the advice and awareness that you provided Mark Zuckerberg and adam mosseri , what did they do with that . They made a conscious decision to ignore your advice and guidance and use our kids as the product. The longer they are online, the richer the data is. The richer the data, the more money they make. They have monetized what comes from our children being addicted to social media. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks, senator blackburn. Let me formerly formally introduce arturo bejar. He is a former security engineer with very significant experience working on user safety and wellbeing. At facebook, he served as director of engineering for protect and care and a specific team at facebook from 2009 to 2000 10. He reported and came back as a consultant to help instagrams wellbeing team from 2019 to 21. He is also a parent of a courageous and young woman who spoke up about her experiences online. Bejar , i will administer the oath. If you would stand, please. He swore that the testimony you will get to the committee is the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god . I do. Thank you. Go ahead. Chairman blumenthal, Ranking Member hawley and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and for your interest in addressing the most one of the most urgent threats to our children today. American children and children everywhere. My name is arturo bejar. I appear before you today as a father with firsthand experience of a child who received unwanted sexual advances on instagram as an expert with over 20 years of experience working as a leader, including leading Online Security for safety and protection at facebook. It is unacceptable that a 13yearold girl gets propositioned on social media. Unfortunately, it happens too frequently today. From a survey in 2021, we found one in eight kids 13 to 15 years old experienced unwanted advances in the last seven days. This is unacceptable and my work has shown that it doesnt need to be this way. Starting in 2009, i was the engineering and product leader for facebooks efforts to reduce online threats to both children and adults. I met regularly with senior executives, including Mark Zuckerberg. They were supportive of the work. As a parent, i took the work personally and i work hard to help create a safe environment. By the time i looked in 2015, and thought it was going in the right direction. A few years later, my 14year old daughter joined instagram that she and her friends began having awful experiences, including repeated unwanted sexual advances, harassment. She reported the incidents to the company and it did nothing. That is in large part because of what i learned as her father. I returned to facebook and this time as a consultant with instagrams wellbeing team. We tried to set goals based on the experiences of teenagers themselves. Instead, the company wanted to focus on enforcing its own narrowly defined policies. Regardless of whether the approach produced hard that teenagers were experiencing, i discovered that most of them were kids that we put in place during my earlier time at facebook. I observed the new features being developed in response to public outcry, which were in reality a placebo and safety feature in name only. I say this because rather than being based on User Experience data, they were based on very deliberately narrow definitions of harm. The company was creating its own homework. For example, instagram knows when a kid spends a significant amount of time looking at harmful content and content that they are recommending. Meta must be held accountable for the recommendations and unwanted sexual advances that instagram enables. As soon as they understood the skin , i did what i had always done but i researched the problem and informed Mark Zuckerberg , Sheryl Sandberg and other executives. I did this because for six years, that was my job to let them know of Critical Issues that affected the company. It has been two years since i left. These are the conclusions i have come to. One, meta knows the harm that kids experience on the platform and executives know that their measures failed to address it. There are actionable steps that meta can take to address the problem. Three, they are the siding time and time again to not tackle the issues. Instagram is the largest public directory of teenagers with pictures in the history of the world. Meta owns instagram and is the company were all work is driven by data , but unwilling to be transparent about data regarding the harm that kids experience. Unwilling to reduce them. Social Media Companies must be required to become transparent, so that parents and public can hold them accountable. Many have come to accept the falls physician proposition bullying, misogyny and other hands are unavoidable evil. This is just not true. We dont tolerate unwanted sexual advances against children or other contexts and they can similarly be prevented on facebook, instagram and other social media products. What is the acceptable frequency for kids to receive unwanted sexual dances . This is an urgent crisis. When asked, has anyone threatened you , damage to reputation, insulted you, excluded you or left you out . 11 of kids said, yes, in the last week. One in four witnessed it happening the company does nothing about it. When asked if they saw a post that made them feel bad about themselves, one in five kids said yes. In the last week, meta executives notice. The public now knows this. I left facebook in 21, i thought they would take my concerns and recommendations seriously to heart and act, yet years have gone by and millions of teenagers are having their Mental Health compromised and are still being traumatized by unwanted sexual advances, harmful content on instagram and other social media platforms. There was a time when at home a kid could escape these things, hans and just about every parent and grandparent have seen their kids faces change from happiness, greed, distress and the moment they check social media. Where can a child seek refuge . It is time that the public and parents understand the true level of harm enabled by these products and its time for congress to act. Thank you for your time. Thanks. We will begin with questions and each of us will ask five edits of questions and because of the turnout, i will limit to five minutes and will have a second round if folks want to do that. We have put in the record october the where you recommend that there be in effect not only a change in Business Practices of the company, but a culture shift, as you call it. You wrote to adam mosseri separately on october 14th. I will ask that that document be made part of the record, as well we present more of the statistics and very powerful evidence of harm. It seems to me that the reaction was to pat you on the head and tell you to go away, be a good boy and pull the curtain. Senator hawley referred to cooking the books. I think what they did was very evidence, conceal it, hide it and deny it in effect to congress and the public. In the past year, they cut around 21,000 jobs or a quarter of the Global Workforce in what Mark Zuckerberg has called the year of efficiency. Hundreds of jobs involving content moderators and safety jobs including from instagrams well being team. What is the impact of cutting those resources devoted to Online Safety . The work was already heavily under resourced when i was there and we are doing 20 of people experiencing this and that there was a small fraction of people dedicated to address the harm. Then, they take maurices more resources away from that, including people doing the work to understand that the kids are experiencing. It seems to me that the Company Culture is see no evil, hear no evil and we dont want to understand what people are experiencing and we are not willing to invest in that and the tools that will help. Thank you. We spoke in advance to the hearing and you told me about a story about meeting another executive, facebooks chief product officer. It was so striking to me that he already knew a lot of the numbers and statistics and evidence of harm that you are bringing to Mark Zuckerbergs attention. Why was this meeting so memorable to you . When i returned in 2019, i thought they didnt know. When i began seeing a culture that was consistently ignoring what teens were experiencing, i thought they didnt know. I did spend one year of researching across the organization and i would ask people, to know what percentage of people are experiencing this . Nobody was able to answer at the top of their head. The first person to do that was chris cox. I found it heartbreaking, because it meant that they knew and were not acting on it. In effect, the expressed caring about teenagers, safety and protect the children was all a shrewd mockery. They already had the evidence that you are bringing to their attention. They knew about it and disregarded it. Thats correct. They rejected your recommendations for making facebook and instagram safer, correct . Thats correct. Before we go to our next witness, do you think that we the congress of the United States should now act . Dont you think action is long overdue given the total lack of credibility on the part of social media . My experience after sending the email and see what happened afterwards is that they knew and there are things that they could do about it. They chose not to do them and we cannot trust them with our children and its time for congress to act. Im hopeful that the testimony added to the lawsuit and state attorney generals across the country. I believe strongly in enforcement by them and add it to the interest that i think is evidence by the turnout of our subcommittee today. That will enable us to get the kids Online Safety act across the finish line and measures like senator durbins were proposals and others that can finally break the street straitjacket. They tech is the next big tobacco. I fight big tobacco in the 1990s. Urged congress to act in the same kind of addict product that they peddled to kids now is advanced to them and promoted and pitched by the tech and we need to break the straitjacket that they have imposed. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you for being here. I want to first establish a factor to make sure that everybody understands. On october 5th, you can post an email, which is now i think in the record to Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg and other executives. Thats correct. He disclosed in according to research, one in eight children had experienced unwanted sexual advances within the last seven days. Thats correct. One and three had experienced unwanted sexual advances outside of the seven day window . That is more than seven days. Is that correct . Those numbers are astounding. One in eight within seven days and a third of children outside of that window. Did Mark Zuckerberg reply . He did not. Did he meet with you . He did not. Did Sheryl Sandberg meet with you . She did not. In other words, the people who recruited you to come back to facebook, meta or whatever its hard to keep up. You ignored your findings when you presented data they didnt want to see. Let me ask you about something else. This is from the wall street journals report earlier this year. This is june of this year and they found the following. Instagram helps connect and promote a vast network of accounts openly devoted to the commission and purchase of under aged content. Pedophiles have long used the internet, but unlike the forms and File Transfer Services that cater to people in illicit content, instagram doesnt host these activities. Instagrams algorithms promote them. Instagram connects pedophiles and guides them to contact sellers buy recommendation systems that excel at linking who share the interests, journals and academic researchers found. This is a stunning report that more than bears out what you were telling and trying to tell the executives. Give us a sense and in your own view, what you think this is happening . Why has instagram become a vast pedophile network, in the words of the wall street journal. How come every time to get on instagram, they are getting bombarded with unwanted advances and content . Why is this happening . My experience at that is that most or close to all that the invest goes towards your deposition a very narrow definition of harm. When you are looking at this issue and find an account that seems to be an account selling things, try and act on it and raise it. See what the company does. See what happens if you like it or follow it. See what you get recommended. How many of these things are they acting on . Is a fraction of a percent. One of the things that you said changed from the time he left the spoke in 2015 and came in 2019 was that it was shifted to an automated driven process safety standard and inspection, which they boast about. They say that their ai is great and doing great work. That doesnt appear to be the actual fact. It appears that they are proliferated. Tell us about the shift towards automated safety monitoring and what it has meant. I was the not there for the shift, but algorithms are as good as their input. If you dont allow a child its gross it makes me uncomfortable, which is something that you can do for an ad. You can take an ad and say that it is inappropriate. There is no way for a child to do that when they get a message or other areas. How do these systems have a hope of addressing the issues . How can they as a company have hope of addressing issues if they are not willing to listen when a teenager is trying to tell them that they are experiencing gross content and unwanted sexual advances . That is how you find predators. What your Research Found and what you elevated to leadership was impact that these Automated Systems were not catching the vast majority of the unwanted content out there. Sexual advances, pedophile material and it doesnt begin to capture, get facebook didnt shift more resources or change their process. Here is what gets me. I have been reading over and over again this case filed by my home state, missouri versus biden. It is a landmark First Amendment case. Federal District Court in federal court of appeals have found that facebook among others actively coordinated with the present administration to censor First Amendment protected speech and not this garbage that is not protected by anything skyper prostitution. Here is what gets me. This is factual findings. They had all kinds of resources in people to doing things like monitoring posts on Covid Vaccine efficacy. There is one example of a parent who wanted to post something about a school board meeting. They used human moderators to take down that post. That has to come down. The kids have been posting about school board meetings, but the things that your daughter experienced and this will bring they can find the time for it. They dont have the resources for it. We just had to let the market have an effect but we dont have the resources. They had plenty of resources to censor First Amendment speech, but no resources to protect our children. Thanks senator hawley. You said earlier in your Opening Statement that when you work for these companies, they were data driven. What do you mean by that . Everything at meta , there are goals based on numbers. There is understanding of what is happening. People set their jobs on that. For the next six months, i will make this number come from this to that. The answer is that they are dollar driven, to . When i can speak directly to is, what percentage of teenagers could experience unwanted sexual dances . If there is not a teenager with that goal and if they could answer your questions about how many are impacted and if they cannot give you detailed data as to who is initiating those, then it is not a priority. Bottom line, they have made a decision that is not a priority to them, because of profit motive. Have they not . If they have to interrupt it and monitor content . That would be a wonderful question to ask mark and Sheryl Sandberg , but she is no longer there. They can speak to why the need these choices and why they keep making these choices over and over again. I will backup what senator graham said. If this becomes expensive to them to continue this outrageous conduct, then they may pay closer attention. You have suggested, as well, that we need a survey of young people to experience. Do you want to explain that . The way they should be tracked on these products is equal to teenagers and ask, did you receive unwanted sexual advances . They are going to know that it doesnt matter what the message is. What you can do to help that teenager is given a chance to tell you and the measures that i talk about are not expensive to implement. You will also brief in terms of narcotic transactions and the use of platforms for that purpose. Did you ever look into that issue . I did not, but if you look at the numbers i provided the committee, there is a category for that class of issues and you should ask the company how much of that content, which teenagers experience as that, they take down. One of our grandkids came home and said that there was someone looking outside of the playground at school that make them feel uncomfortable. We would know what to do and move on it quickly. We know for reality that there is danger lurking in the iphones they are opening up every single day and we seem to feel unable to respond to this. I hope that we can change that. Do you have any thoughts . Section 230 . Im not qualified to talk about that, but these companies should be held accountable for content that they recommend. I agree with that and i think that is the bottom line. Thank you for your testimony. Thanks. Senator graham . You are doing the country a great service. Did they contest are now memo . I must have spoken to 20 or 30 people, including adam mosseri saying, do you have any feedback or anything inaccurate in my data . Nobody did. To some of your testimonies and in its current form, what you are describing is a dangerous product . Millions of families are affected by this dangerous product . Correct. As a father who had a 13 yearold affected by this product, did you feel helpless . I did. If he could have saved them, what do . I apologize, what was the question . If you could sue, would you . I think they just have to be held to account and be transparent. One way of doing that is to sue them. You cant see them under the current law. I did not know that. Your daughter felt harm and your testimony is that millions of people are in the same situation as her daughter. They know what you are doing and keep doing that anyway. Is that correct . That is correct. I cant think of a company that cant get sued accept these people. If you had to give sovereign immunity to a group of people, this would be on the bottom of my list and not the top. I just asked my office to find out how much money i have received from facebook, instagram and other companies. I think we are all boycott. If senator trent jane is right, which i think you are, the leverage is power over the political system. Im calling on every member of congress today, dont take their money until they change. Dont accept what they are offering you until they change. The money you are receiving is coming from people who created a dangerous product for children and they say not to be willing to change. That would be on the bottom of my list now that i know what you have told me of people that i want to associate myself with. Have you ever heard them talk about being afraid of anything or anybody . I have not. Thats amazing. Companies this big and telling him what you are doing and asserting people. They are indifferent, but feel like they are immune from action, because they pretty much are. Bottom line, if we did create a system where parents like you could sue and hold them liable, to think it may change behavior . That is not for me to say. I just want our kids and my daughter to have the tools they need when they are experiencing these things. What i will tell you is that i believe that would and we will never know until we try. I think we should dedicate ourselves on this committee, which has been a pleasure to serve on and all of you have been big on this issue. Not just to pass bills, but insist on change. The ultimate change comes when they can be held liable in a court of law. Until you open of the courthouse, nothing will change. The day you do, you will be amazed at how many good ideas they knew, but didnt tell us. I will dedicate what time i have left in this business opening of the courtroom, because i will begin nothing else will do. Until that day comes, i will take any of their money. Your money is not welcome to to lead change. That might be the first step to change. Thank you for your bravery and sorry for what happened to your daughter. We owe you and everybody in the situation better. Thank you. Thanks. That is why many of us have joined you in a call, including the Ranking Member and myself. Thank you very much, senator blumenthal. Thank you for those words. I am a strong believer in that we can talk about this and have hearings and keep reminding people that we need to get things done, but until we change the low, these are no longer companies that started in a garage with two guys tinkering around with platforms or computers in the college dorm room. This is real lives getting lost and i really appreciate that you are willing to come forward and testify. I will focus on one area that i dont think we talked about enough, which is the platforms inability and refusal to take down sites that are selling dangerous drugs. Recently, the dea found that one third of drug cases had direct ties to social media. I was just in minnesota with the mother who lost her kid and the kid literally ordered one pill, as we say that one pill kills on the internet and it was laced with fentanyl. As the mom said and bridget said, all of the hopes and dreams that we as parents had were erased in the blink of an eye and no mom should have to bury their kid. That is why senator and i and others on the committee have been working with marshall and senator grassley on this bill that is coming through this committee already and it needs to go to the floor along with other bills that we talk about to require social media as and companies to report fentanyl and other dangerous drug sales on their platforms. The cartels who dont really care people die or not, because no one knows it. In mexico and china, they harness these platforms. Two social Media Companies have the correct incentives to identify and eliminate drug sales to kids . Thank you for the question and the concern on all of those important. Until there is disclosure of what kids experience as the drug content and sexual content about these things, i dont know what the incentive is, which is why i think transparency is so essential. As parents and grandparents, we see it and understand it. We knew how frequent it is. That is what the numbers share. If we want one thing for everybody here to know, it is that when you talk about any category that you care about, such as drugs and when the company talks about that category, they are talking about a fraction of a percent of what we as a society experience exactly. There are other things to do with the note, including at the border, but this would be a major game changer for the ability to take these cases on. Prosecutors have reported an emerging trend where they collect photos of children that may fall short of the definition of child pornography and distribute on websites with the intent to harass or abuse the child victims and there was a major story on this. Senator and i have a bill to fill in gaps in federal law, so that prosecutors can hold those who abuse kids in this way accountable. In your role as a person who was responsible for efforts to keep users safe, can you talk about the deficiencies and current policies . Thank you for the question. If you look at content that sexualize as minors, the question is, is that something that violates Company Policy and would be removed . Is that what the company is acting on . Does it end up being something that because it is content that the company to act on, they end up recommending and distributing. As a parent, we see this. If you were to look for it, you can find it. If you like it, you get recommended. These are all things that the company is i believe aware of and can do things about and chosen not to do so. Very good. He is right. There is one big thing that we can do, which is to allow the cases to forward. I think some of these things i am discussing makes it easier for people to proceed with cases and create incentives. One thing i and and i will ask it on the record is that we think that there is a bill to allow independent researchers to look at the algorithms that you know are designed in a way that manipulates the kids and can lead to death to require these digital platforms to give independent Research Access together. I figured that you think this would be helpful . Yes or no . Very good. Thank you. Again, we can talk about this all we want and we will remember you and your story. Until we get these things and are allowed for time they both sides and can put them together into one package, we are just not going to get the solutions we need, because getting mad at the platforms have not changed their conduct. Thanks, senator. Senator kennedy . Mr. Bejar, social media can make people less lonely. Can it not . It can do that. Social media can deliver insight. Can it not . It can. When used properly, it can give voice to the tented. Can it not . It can. Social media can also spread hate. It can. Much of social media and not all, but much of social media has become a pool of snark. What i can speak to, senator, is that it happens also often and it doesnt need to be that way. Is it that way . For much of social media . One of the numbers to talk about is the 20 of kids who witnessed bullying in the last seven days, which does not get taken down. If people comment on it, it gets promoted. Let me put it another way. Im trying to sum it up. Isnt it a fact that social media has lowered the cost of being and a whole . Yes. Isnt it true that social media removes any geographical order to the harassment of others . Yes. Isnt it true that some forms of social media optimized for engagement . Being unable. Is it true that some use forms of surveillance to enable our and our kids hot buttons . I cant speak to that. Isnt it true that some forms of social media use algorithms to show us and our kids stuff that pushes those buttons . I will say this. Recently, my daughter had someone go into one of her post about cars and said, you know you like cars because you saw a man doing it. And she said im studying motor restoration. Ive been doing this for years and i know a lot about cars. I am more than qualified. The person shot back, women just belong in the passenger seat. To every point you just made, i will say that when i asked her about that post, if she would delete it, because she knows reporting would do nothing, she said, i will not delete it because im worried that would mean that less people will see my post. Im not going to ask you this question. Im going to make a statement, because were probably not familiar with louisiana. But in my state, social media has impacted the news media. Particularly print media. Thank god for our tv news and our radio news. But when it comes to our print media, we in louisiana and that is print media in paper and print media which is on the internet. When it comes to print media, with louisiana, argues desert. Weve only got about two real nonnews print Media Journalists left who are fair and arent opinion drones. Most of our print media members are now sports journalist. Which is fine. I loves words. Let me wrap up this way. What you do is what you believe, isnt it . Yes. Everything else is just kind of cheese, isnt it . Yes. I look forward to the day when the members of United States senators will come together and not used every day or week or month or even every year. That rule would say when there is a consensus, and when you as a senator can demonstrate that you had 60 votes to pass a bill, then you have the right to bring that bill the floor of the United States senate no matter who doesnt want it. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator kennedy. Thank you for testifying. I was curious about the fact that so many of the young people on these platforms are exposed to Cyber Bullying, and i can be anything. Your daughter experienced some of that because of some of the things she posted online. But there is also an addictive quality to keeping these kids online. For the platforms, keeping these kids online means money for them. Is there anything we can do to address the addictive aspect of what is happening to our young people where they continue to go on to these platforms and expose themselves to this kind of harmful content . Thank you for the question. I think there is potential to have good data about the impact that this has. And its not that difficult. You could take a teenager after half an hour and say, how are you doing . Are you feeling better, or worse . And use that information. Lets it we have this kind of data. What you think we should do . I think that were appropriately compelled to figure out a good way to help teens have a use of the product that serves them. As i think what happens right now is, it depresses them. What i experienced as a parent and what i think every parent here has asked variance is a sense of urgency. To the young people understand the harmful impact them elves . Part of your testimony is about how all of us should be should understand what is happening. Would it help if they help themselves with those impacts . This is also an aspect of education, for example, of the young people. Would that help . I think it helps to educate young people. What helps in my experience the most is changes to the product, but its less harmful. And its those changes and the refusal to do those changes. There so much incentive for their platforms to change the product, because they face no consequence for the content. Including the state of hawaii, where i come from, have sued these companies, alleging that they design their products to harm users. And i think most of these places have been consolidated in california. The defendant are saying that they are unlimited in their liability exposure because of section 230. You are not a lawyer, but if these companies are exposed to legal liability, these losses, they are still pending, by the way. If the companies are found liable and forced to pay money as a result of these losses, do you think that would change their behavior as far as them paying attention to the harmful impact on their platforms . I am not a lawyer and not qualified to weigh in on that. Is it all about money for these companies . Thats why they keep doing what they do. If they were exposed and had to pay money as a result of their content, do you think that would change their behavior . My hope is, and what i believe will change their behavior, is the moment that Mark Zuckerberg went in, he had to say, last quarter we made 34 billion. And the next thing he has to say is, and in instagram, this is the percentage of teens that experience unwanted sexual advances. That number would go down very quickly. How would it go down . They would be incentivized to work on it. Right now, there are no goals. Accept that if there is no law that prevents them from having these kinds of content, other than court cases, they are not held responsible for content that the fact that people know they have they have exposed these kids. So what . And this is why there is so much attention being paid to section 230 and the limited liability. They are protected from content. They do try, i suppose, and you say that you have a very limited definition of what is harmful content. But on the other hand, i am all for doing more than we are currently doing. One of these that can also happen, i wrote a letter asking d. C. To investigate matters of censoring advertisements for health products. And they decided that this kind of advertisement was harmful. I hardly call that a very narrow definition of harm. All these Companies Left to their own devices, they get to choose what they deem to be harmful. And the example that you cite, its a very limited definition. But they decided that Womens Health products are harmful, and they are going to censor those kinds of product. This is still a lot more complicated than at first, i guess. But i know we are going to try to do something. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for your testimony and your frankness. I know that we appreciate it, and in my state of tennessee, we have attorneys here from our Attorney Generals Office today. And they are pushing to also get something done about the overreach of facebook, and we are grateful that so many state have stepped up to hold facebook to task. So we appreciate this. I want to return us to december 21. Chairman blumenthal mentioned this. He and i at the Senate Commerce Consumer Protection subcommittee that we lead had mr. Mosseri in front of us. And you are consulting for instagram at that time, correct . What is the date again . December 21. I had left by that point. Okay. A few months earlier, you said in two emails that talked about youth harms on the platform, correct . Now im going to quote from you a few things from his testimony. He said, and i quote, we care deeply about the teens on instagram, which is in part why we Research Complex issues like bullying and social comparison and make changes. Do you agree with that characterization . I would agree with that they make research. I dont agree that they make changes. So they have the info, but take no action. He also said, we dont allow people to bully or harass other people on instagram and have rules in place that prohibit this type of conduct. Weve also built tools to prevent bullying from happening in the first place and empower people to manage their accounts so they never have to see the it,. Do you agree with that . I think it is profoundly misleading, because at a time at which the public statistic was a fraction of a percent, one in five teens have watched it happening, 10 experience it, and you have to bear in mind, theres heading right there. If this was a school, it would be completely unacceptable. Let me give you one more. Talking about the executives, i am interested to see how they reacted to the information that came out in 2021 about their disregard for harms to minors. Do you think that meta executives were motivated to do more or to address the problem, or were they interested in covering up what was going on at the time . I think you will need to ask them about their intentions, but i also think we believe that actions speak louder than words. Did any of the members of metas team, whether it was zuckerberg, sandberg , cox did any of them respond to your email in a way that suggested that they were going to take an action to correct the wrongs . No. For 6 years, when i send that kind of message, i would get a meeting within 24 hours and spent a meaningful amount of time talking with them and what needed to be dealt with. In this case, the lack of risk on, meeting sometime later and then the lack of options speaks about the fact that they slept it off. Money was more important than protecting children. You should ask them that question. Okay. I would be interested to know who took responsibility for making policy determinations about youth safety. And one conversation you had with my staff, you suggested that Mark Zuckerberg had a hand in such decisions during your first stint at the company, but that when he returned, he would tell employees not to raise youth safety issues to him. Is that accurate . In my first stint, he would be his response would be, who would raise these issues, and they would engage proactively. One of the most qualified people in the world to bring it to their attention. I was not aware when i brought up the email that it was hard to talk to mark about this. But my experience of how the entire company was behaving and it came to the harms that teens were experiencing was a cultural issue which, in my experience, characterizing prevalence over harm, is something for that whole executive team, and we have necessary appeal directly to them. So they were aware. They knew that harms were taking place. They had the research that pointed this out. Their own research. And they made a conscious decision to do nothing about it. Correct. Did they ever talk about profit as opposed to enacting these protections . Not in my presence. Not in my presence. Okay. So other than Mark Zuckerberg, who wouldve claimed responsibility for dealing with youth safety and youth harms . Anyone . Adam. My time is expired. Thank you, chairman. I just want to start by acknowledging my gratitude to my colleagues on this committee for the work you have been doing on a bipartisan basis. Senator blackburn and i began working together when we were both in the house together. I think it was the first privacy bill. So i havent been with you in this effort, but i cant elaborate on the excellent Opening Statements senator blumenthal and senator hawley made. Id like to associate myself with your remarks. But i do want to, on my behalf, express my shock at what is happening to our kids, because theres a lot of money to be made. In your questions, senator blackburn, revealing just the disregard for the Mental Health of our kids is truly shocking. So i am all in with you on your efforts here. I am also delighted that our attorney general has joined the lawsuit, and also, i want to thank you for stepping forward and providing such clarity. And also embedded in the concern that you have not just for your daughter, but for all of your kids. A couple of issues that have come up from letters that i received and comments, and i know you are getting the same questions as well. And i want to make sure we do this legislation that doesnt do any harm. Weve been receiving a number of letters from folks in the Lgbt Community were concerned that some of this legislation included in the act would compromise their ability to get together online and be mutually supportive. And i support that. So i just want to talk a little bit about how if we proceed with the legislation, which i hope we do, we are not in any way interfering with the capacity of kids who legitimate are getting together and not doing any of the exploitative stuff. Can we accomplish that . I cannot speak to the legislation. I trust that you are extraordinarily qualified for that part. I think that my job here is to help us bring light to the harms and the fact that the company talks about them, thats based on your years at the forefront of facebook . Correct. The other thing we want you to know again, having these experiences, it does not need to be this way. We are standing right next to them as these things are happening. And i know because they built these kinds of things for 6 years. Can you please help me with this . And then get help with whatever is happening for them. Today, that is not the case. So the exploitative content is the algorithm that you are focusing on. No, it is actually it is when somebody says you taken a school and you are in a hallway and somebody says, im going to make sure that you dont get invited to any parties ever again. The only people around you hear that. And if that happens online, it implies a person but doesnt name them, never gets removed, its incredibly distressing to 18. I deeply care about every child we can talk about in every context. That child will get left out because of the reason senator blumenthal outlined and dependent on what the content is. I believe thats important for all children, no matter their gender or race. I share that. By the way, another question to come up is about encryption. There are real privacy benefits to encryption, so i hope that any legislation that we have, we will compromise privacy rights of individuals were on the internet. I deeply believe in privacy in everything that im talking about. If a child gets a direct message that makes them uncomfortable, hurts them, it doesnt matter what the content is. My house, my rules. It only matters that the child feels uncomfortable and is able to say can we please add a button when a child receives a message that says, please help me. What is going on . So many things, and it doesnt matter what the content is. The child deserves help. If somebody is initiating those messages, going to those kids houses and telling them these things, then step number one, thats not appropriate. And if they keep doing it, then other things can be brought to bear. So kids first. Absolutely. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Bejar, for being here. And your courage and your testimony. You know, i think weve met the enemy, and the enemy is us. We actually have six bills that were voted out of these Judiciary Committees. In the senate, the only person who can actually schedule those bills for vote is the majority leader, senator schumer. So i would suggest we focus our attention on trying to get senator schumer to schedule a vote on those six pieces of legislation. That would be a good start. We can talk about it without that happening. Nothing is going to happen in the senate. One wise person said, were trying to figure out some complex topic like this. Follow the money. You mentioned a number of times the data. Do social media applications like instagram and facebook collect huge volumes of data about the users . They do. And that data is then used mainly for advertising a product. For example, its amazing to me when i go to a web right and i look at something, say, a piece of hunting gear. The next thing i know, on my instagram, an advertisement from that same Company Shows up. And the way that that happens is that instagram, facebook, x, formally known as twitter, sells that data to companies who then use that information to promote their products. Isnt that correct . I am not an expert in that domain. Thats how they make money, right . To make money through advertising. Right. I was shocked to read an article here in the m. I. T. Technology review which talks about its shockingly easy to buy Sensitive Data about u. S. Military personnel. Duke university did a study at the request of west point and others, and determined for as little as . 12 per record that data brokers would sell Sensitive Information on u. S. Military members and veterans. With that surprise you . Again, this is not an area where i have expertise. I have expertise as a security professional and ensuring that the system is doing what it is set to do, i dont have an expertise on public data brokers. I think it is pretty much Common Knowledge that that is the case, that this data accumulated by social Media Companies has been sold. And that is the reason why when you go on instagram or facebook, you dont actually have to pay a subscription or a fee. They talk about if they couldnt recover that revenue from telling that data about me, chairman blumenthal, the Ranking Member hawley or others, or your daughter, then they would have to charge a fee in order to make this economical. But they dont do that, because they can sell your data. And as shocking as what you have discovered and you have shared with us today about this one social Media Company, the truth is, this is not unique to instagram or facebook, correct . Correct. Here in the congress, we talked a lot about arkham turn of chinas increasing belligerency and militancy and not only its economy, but its military and threatening peace in asia and elsewhere. But we also have talked a lot about apps like tiktok, for example, that our chinese applications that then do much as instagram does and vacuum up all this data, addict our children by using the algorithm to figure out what to recommend to them. And again, this is all about the data and all about the money. And of course, senator durbin mentioned the use of social media applications when it comes to selling drugs. Fentanyl, synthetic opioid is a single leading cause of death in 18 to 45yearolds in america today. Much of that has transacted those sales and promotions through the use of social media. And then theres also scary things like deep fakes. Do you know what a deep fake is . I do. Its when you use technology to create an image of a person that is not an actual photo or video of this person. I learned that deep fakes are now being used to portray young girls for sexual gratification using these deep fakes, false images due to this incredible technology, which, senator kennedy pointed out, can be used for a lot of goods. But it can also be used for ill as well. I know our time is short here today. I just want to thank you for answering these questions. We have a lot of work to do here in the senate and in the congress. And as parents and grandparents, to try to protect our children, just thank goodness my daughters are adult now. We arent in the age of hawleys kids or others. But the first we want to do, mr. Chairman, is the one person who can actually schedule a floor vote on some passed unanimously out of the senate Judiciary Committee to schedule a vote. We can do that next week. But hes got to make it happen. Thank you. I cant speak for senator schumer, but i know he is finally interested in reform in this area. And im sure that he will make the interest real in the Florida Senate at the right time. Thank you, chair blumenthal, and Ranking Member hawley. As a mom, this is a topic that i could not not show up to engage in. I want to appreciate your leadership, mr. Bejar, for writing for and leading on behalf of not just my daughter, but americas children. And i know not just your own. I appreciate very much also your comments to my colleague here. Senator welch, specifically when youre talking about taking in all children approach. The all children approach has it necessarily been taken. I love to hear your thoughts on some fact that we could try to you know and we know the internet can be a hateful place. We talked about that today. I understand that among your research and their User Experience, you look into instances of opportunity based hostilities on the platform. Instagram users under the age of 16 based on religion or identity within the last week. One study published in the journal of academy of children psychology looked at the issue of online Racial Discrimination in march of 2020. It found that black youth experienced increases in online Racial Discrimination that their white counterparts did not. In those instances of discrimination predicted worse sameday and Mental Health. Can you talk with us about what more you think the companies should be doing to protect against these kinds of racial and ethnic harassment in facilities online . The fact the fact that a child today, white, black, any identity gets called out in front of an entire shared audience again. Go home, ask them your child. What can you do . And there is no way for their child to say, this is what is happening to me. What is being really mean to me. And i use that language, because 10 years ago, we knew that in order to help a child, you have to hear the words that they use. A 13yearold does not like to report things because they are going to get in trouble or get other people in trouble. So you tell them, would you like some help . You should be able to say, you know, this is awful for me because of my identity. And then get them resources. And then also make sure they know that that is not acceptable behavior. The 20 number witnessing these kinds of attacks is the actual lack of action on the part of the company. Children are behaving. Children are to follow up a and just to follow up a little bit, what would it look like to create a good experience . Is it just the ability to start exercising some agency and the button that you are making representative . Is a process. If its a direct message, you record that somebody initiated that message. One of the questions for the platform is, how many people are harassing messages should somebody be able to send before you tap them on the shoulder and told him that that is not appropriate behavior. It creates information that you can then act on. If somebody keeps doing it, then you know that they are up to no good, and then you can take further measures. Its a hope of making a safer environment for youth. What you think is a barrier for companies . What do you think is the barrier to change, and what you think would help to create that to overcome that barrier . I think they are just not incentivized to make this change. Thats why nothing has changed. It is been two years. The content doesnt matter to say, this makes me uncomfortable. But you can say that about an app, for example. Thats actually an appropriate, or its not for me. The thing about this is, until the information is found, it strongly encouraged that that includes you know, the trend south of the overall number. But that 90 , 80 of youth that asked variance listings as an identity issue, they deserve to be had if the Company Makes it a priority and collect it, and that is why i am here today. Thank you so much, mr. Bejar, again. And thank you for your concern on behalf of americas children. A number of colleagues will be joining us in the next few minutes, but why dont we begin the second round of questions now. Speaking of which, senator koontz is arriving, and i can give you a couple of minutes to get comfortable, or we can begin right now. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman for this important and timely hearing. And mr. Bejar , inc. You so much for thinking of your own personal experience. As the Senior Engineer responsible for the wellbeing within this unbelievable platform, a quick survey suggest that Something Like two thirds of all American Teens are currently on metas platforms. In particular, instagram. I am very concerned about the likely impact on our children and our future. And i wanted to make sure that we had a chance to question you for just a few moments about a possible path forward. And you testified to this committee today, your own research was ignored. Was marginalized by the very team that had recruited you to return to a leadership role at meta. Your testimony highlights the dangerous lack of trans parents social Media Companies, the dangerous consequences of this ongoing local merriment with our children, and documents ways in which they are on the receiving end of both images to make them feel worse about themselves and unwanted sexual advances. Our own u. S. Surgeon general has issued a clarion call for congress to act and recognize that we are experiencing a crisis and Mental Health in particular amongst our children and to find ways to restrain these platforms. A bipartisan bill, i suspect senator klobuchar or blumenthal may have referred to about platform accountability and Transparency Act that is cosponsored by senator cornyn and senator cassidy and senator graham which may critical advances in transparency and require platforms to disclose some of the Public Safety information that they currently hide. Can you give just two or three examples of the kinds of data and the kinds of in height into algorithms and how they work that would be critical for our public to know, and that Companies Like meda refuse to report . And you expect that companies will ever voluntarily fully disclose what it is about their algorithms that make these platforms addictive or even dangerous for our children . Apologies. Thank you for the question. I think for as long as these Companies Get to make up their own definitions of what is harmful, of what is, for example addiction. I looked into the definition when i was in the country, asking around about the understanding of it. And what i found was there was an internal problematic usage. In the definition of that was so narrow, it doesnt really capture what we as parents all see. And i think without transparency or the harms they are experiencing by their own work, without instruments that help us understand the role that social media plays in their lives, and without assuring that, for example, it is something that when they need help actually helps them. We measure the help by whether it helped. And so i think that without these things, i dont think anything is going to change. Could you explain for us how empowering independent researchers would provide a much more balanced understanding of how safe or dangerous social media platforms really are, and Say Something about what kinds of Safety Research could be done in order to facilitate a better Mental Health and Better Safety outcome for our teenagers . I can speak well to that, because i did, and i did it 10 years ago. Regarding different universities in the United States, including yale. And we understood that, for example, a 14yearold is more likely. And they knew that it was important that the most important thing you could do for a child is have a good. And to make sure they feel supported at that moment. Engineers and designers are not qualified to use these tools, and thats why independent research and the did it that enable that absolutely helps our understanding of what people are. Thank you. My colleague, senator hawley, said earlier that instagrams effort doesnt just promote but accelerate the connection between pedophiles and our kids. For anyone who is a caring and concerned parent, for anyone who cares about our community, that should be a chilling sentence. And the fact that you dedicated years to conducting research on safety and did everything you could to get it to the attention of the leadership of the company and are only here before us in a lastgasp attempt, should motivate all of us to advance legislation that will unleak what i think is a corrosive, harmful, maligned connection between algorithms and selfharm and assaults on our children. Thank you for your testimony today. Thank you. We are going to have a second round of questions, limited in length, i want to assure you. But thank you for your patience and your perseverance here today. Let me begin by saying that the lawsuit filed by the commonwealth of massachusetts yesterday, which is one of 9 individual lawsuits filed around the country by state, and it is complementary to the federal lawsuit filed by 33 states in District Court. Connecticut joined that lawsuit. Im going to ask that the complaint be made part of the record. 90 of young people in the United States 90 of young people use instagram. So we are talking about millions of young people. And it cites Mark Zuckerberg saying in october 2021 in response to the whistleblower testimony for our committee, quote, at the heart of these accusations is the idea that we prioritize profit over safety and wellbeing. That is just not true. He said further, it is very important to me that everything we build is safe and good for kids. Taking your admonition that actions speak louder than words, his actions certainly demonstrate a falsehood, do they not . They do. And if you have a moment, i have something from that. On that same note, Mark Zuckerberg wrote, when it comes to Young Peoples Health or wellbeing, every negative experience matters. It is incredibly sad to think of a young person in a moment of despair who, instead of being comforted, has her experience made worse. And i believe that is what instagram does today. The reference was made earlier to the policies of facebook and social media in general being data driven. In fact, they are driven, correct . My experience or in this case, facebook and meta doctors the data to drive the dollars. In my experience, what happens is this data should be public. They shouldnt need to be here to talk about it. It should be public. You know, i was struck in the memo that you wrote to adam very dated october 14th and is now part of the record. You made the point, first of all, and quoting, everyone in the industry has the same problems right now. Correct. You made that point to mr. Mosseri. And in fact, meta is a leader in instagram and facebook and needs to be a leader. And you said, quote, there is a great product opportunity in figuring out the features that make a community feel safe and supported, and quote. A great product opportunity. In fact, youre inviting them to design a better product that consumers would prefer because it was favored, correct . Correct. And the history of capitalism i dont want to be too philosophical here is that consumers go to products that are more efficient, more effective, but also, safer. Safer cars, safer ovens. Safer washing machines. Safer everything. And you were appealing to the better instinct of mosseri and zuckerberg in the whole team, correct . That is correct. I mean, instagram is a partner, right . Its like ice cream or a toy or a car. How many kids need to get sick from a batch of ice cream or get hurt by a car before theres an investigation . And there was an opportunity, because there was a standing witness for the team. They are the company that is delivering the content that is upsetting to them. And they should be able to theres an opportunity for them to be told, theres something happening here. Will you help me . And you can be like, yes, i can. The community, you want them safer. Its also about the product. Its about the product design. If you have consumers, give them some choices about what they want to see and hear. Connect the algorithm to drive something you dont want here. It is not censorship. Its not content blocking. You favor that approach to protecting young people and others on the internet . Completely. Actually, the third paragraph in my email, my experience from 10 years there and five years of looking at 90 of the content that teens experience as harassment, it might not be discernible for policies. It needs to be different. It has to change. The act of holding social Media Companies accountable when they are harmful, they feel no accountability in terms that really affect their bottom line when Mark Zuckerberg uses Quarterly Report and his discussion to analyst. Would you favor that kind of accountability . Absolutely. I want to take a moment to say that in my experience, the integrity and wellbeing of professionals who are working on these issues firsthand, they are incredibly good people with wonderful ideas. We could be letting them down more. Go ahead, sorry. I was going to say, during that time, we talk about it kind of taught that we know is bad for body issues. It has a name. Its called inspiration. They know it is being recommended and they know teens are spending meaningful time looking at it, and they are unwilling to address that. I cant imagine that ever changing. Another part of our kids Online Safety act provides for more transparency about the algorithm so that there can be more Public Knowledge and also expert knowledge. Would you favor that approach . Yes, it is essential. The algorithm looks at their inputs and can be modified by their outputs. If the algorithm doesnt show that a kid experiences something upsetting, then why will it recommended . If you look at what is recommended, its recommending a few things that should be filtered content. And before i go, senator hawley for his second round of questions, you mentioned that people who worked on your team, the people who worked at these companies, they are generally good people who want to do the right thing. And i noticed in your memo to mr. Mosseri , you said, and im quoting a point which might be good for you to know, which i did not put in the document reviewed by the team, is that many employees that ive spoken to who are doing this work and are a different level, are distraught. Are distraught about how the last few weeks have unfolded. These people who love fb ig instagram, i assume and our Mission Driven to the work, they were distraught by the public exhibition of facebook, knowing that it was profiting by toxic content driven in kids and the company. In effect, hiding the truth, rejecting recommendations for improvement, and growing past safety measures, correct . They were distraught. They were afraid that because the company was externally allowing body image issues, while at the same time, there were studies and data that were saying otherwise, they were getting proposed for it otherwise. They were afraid that they wouldnt get the support they needed, that they wouldnt be able to get what they needed. The amount of investment that this company ought to do for those people should be commensurate to the harm that you now have. Thank you. Senator hawley. Think you for being here. You have done extraordinarily and been patient, but also incredibly forthcoming in your responses. It has just been tremendously helpful, so thank you so much. I just want to come back to something you said over and over because you been asked about it over and over. To quote you in response to an earlier question. You were just explaining that instagram is a product, like ice cream or opioids. Changes to the products would be most helpful, but there is no in tentative. By no incentive, that really just means theres no money in it for the company, right . They can make money on it, what did they do it . I really am very excited for the day that mark or adam are sitting here, and then you can ask them. So why did you not invest . Because one of the things that is in each recommendation use either, you understand what data is causing these things . Those are not a matter of significant invest it. It would not cost him as much. Its a matter of how much they prioritize the work and whether they are willing to set their goals based on what teens are experiencing. I think thats very well said. You commented earlier that would be great to hear Mark Zuckerberg say, we pay 34 billion this order, and then here i also have to report, heres the amount of harm that teenagers effort. We may 34 billion this quarter and 34 billion injury judgments pending against us. That would get their attention. And i just have to say, at the end of the day, if you want to in device changes to these companies, you have got to allow people to sue them. You got to open the court room doors. The fcc, it made no discernible difference to the practices. None. They changed nothing. They dont care. But i will tell you what they fear. They fear parents taking them to court and holding them accountable. Thats the hammer. Thats what happened with big tobacco, thats what happened with opioids. That is the hammer, and that is what we have got to do. We talked about the bills that passed this committee. Senator durbins bill, along with me and the governor on Child Sexual Exploitation abuse material, exploitative material. And for my money, the best part about that bill is the private right of action. Its november the seventh today, is that right . We are going to vote before the end of the year. Before the end of this calendar year, i could go to the floor of the United States senate and i would demand votes on the bills that we have passed in this committee. And we will just find out. Because im tired of waiting. I waited four years. Many folks in this committee have waited far longer. Any senator can go to the floor and ask for a vote on it. And im going to do it. Before the end of this year, im going to do it. We have all the talks about all we love and we need to do stuff. Fine, lets do something. The money that is slowing back into this capital from big tech is obscene. It is totally obscene. If we really wanted to change something, we can pour the money out for politics. We could stop these megacorporations from making political contributions. That would change things. But either way, we are going to vote before the end of 2023, and we will just put people on record and we will see where we go from there. I hope your testimony today will really motivate people. I know it will motivate parents. Every parent will see this and say, you know what . Thats been my periods, too. As an engineer who has your level of expertise and benefit, parents feel like maybe i just dont understand this technology. Maybe i am the only one. Listening to you today, its encouraging to say, im not the only one. Can i Say Something about that . Parents know. They see this every day. The other thing in my experience, in my years doing this, is that parents know how to parent. And sometimes annette had a parent of a child that has been groomed, that parent has talked to me about these periods and they are like, well, they dont understand the technology. The best way for people to learn about these things is just take social media out of the conversation. As the parent of a young kid, who your kids are spending time with, you keep an eye on that. You get a sense of that. You want to make it very safe for your kid to come up to you and say, hey, dad. This is what happened with me at home. And you want to make it easy for them to bring up an issue to you. And then when you see that these things are happening, if these things were happening at a school and you knew that one in five kids were witnessing or one in 10 were experiencing unwanted sexual advance is, and the kid turns to somebody in the school for help and they are like, im sorry, i cannot help you with that. As a parent, what would you do . And thats one of the reasons that i am here today. Thanks, senator hawley. I would just, again, make the point about imposing accountability. And i want to join the pledge to seek a vote for the endof theyear. Were very helpful that you will have not only a vote, but an overwhelmingly positive bipartisan vote in favor of my safety bill. And i challenge social media and tech to come forward and put your money where your mouth is. Put your actions where your record is. Support this bill for years, in fact, they have said, oh, we want regulations. But its not that regulation. And that has been no longer will kids or Parents Trust social media to impose right safeguards. And we want to give them the tools their product needs so the kids can take back their lives online. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thank you again for your patience today. I wish that my colleague from vermont was still here. It was 2012 when he and i started on privacy and filed the first privacy bill in the house. Anna senator welch was saying, we have been at this a long time and we have been fought by big tech every single step of the way. Every way. And it has been really quite amazing to see, because they are and sometimes, people will say, how will Tech Companies grow this big this fast . They didnt have the guidelines for the rules and restraint that the physical world has. And its kind of been the wild west. And weve seen that and how they choose to gather data and data mine and use that to make the dollar. They got to keep these eyeballs on the page. The longer they keep them, the more money they make. Now, i want to go back to the hearing we had with mr. Mosseri in december 21. And, for the record, i want this bill to be able to add a little more of this framework, because i think its important to the states that have joined the lawsuit. I think its important to us, if we were to get the kids online and the safety act passed, if you were with facebook, you built a structure that would allow for some online government. And you put in place what you saw was a pretty good process for keeping people safe online, correct . That is correct. Basically, you had embarked upon safety people safe online. Correct . That is correct. And basically, you had embarked on safety by design. Correct . That is correct. Okay, and you were putting in place a duty of care for the social Media Company to be responsive to the users that were on those platforms. That is correct, and i was going through these materials, i remember talking about bullying and teenagers and said we as a company have the responsibility not only to the teenagers, but also to improve the understanding of this issue so the field could be moved forward, that is the spirit in which we engage the work. Then in 2013, facebook decided they were going to change the rules and allow kids ages 13 to 17 to post content on instagram. I dont know the exact date that change happened. Okay, i think that is accurate, and allowing them, what do you think changed, what motivated them to drop the age and allow 13yearolds . I cannot speak to their motivation but what i can say is that, if you look at those 2013 presentation and 2012, one of the things that is written about is the fact that a 13 yearold will do risky behavior and feels things more intensely because that is where they are developmentally. So making a change that could potentially increase their audience i think would be inconsistent with that understanding. I find it so interesting that whether it was Mark Zuckerberg or cox, when you highlighted with them, how readers were responding to the survey, users were responding and you kept trying to direct this tour the experience, not the perception, but the experience and that is noted several times in your emails to them. Even though 51 of the users may say they have had a negative experience, they chose not to address that issue. In most corporations, allowing issues like that to just slide would never be tolerated. So it is left, when i ask myself why did they do that, it has to be because they were motivated by profit over motivation to protect their users in the virtual space. I do want to ask you just a couple things, to go back on your memo, the october 14th email. And you laid out an agenda and an opportunity for items for discussion so that you would make good use of your time, and you explicitly and specifically went through the numbers on kids that had received different negative interactions. And then you broke out the data by age. And you created a chart so that he could look at it in a google document. Correct. How did he respond when you broke it down by age or did he take the time to look at it . It is my experience of all the years in meta that any executive looks at it thoroughly and reads the attachments, so it would be my expectation that he read it. He demonstrated understanding everything i spoke about and we specifically talked about a burden for a teenage girl who received unwanted passes. Okay, thank you for that, what troubles me is knowing that harm was being done to kids and to tell us, and i quoted some of his comments from his testimony that he gave to us. And for him to allude to the fact, to give the impression that they built tools that prevent these adverse activities. But then, you know, its that old thing of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, it was true, they built tools you built them. That was truth. But, they chose to remove that. And in doing that, there are hundreds of children that we have met with their parents and we have heard about the suicides, the attempted suicide and the adverse impact on these children. Thank you. Thank you senator blackburn. Thank you so much for being here today, as you can tell from the turnout, there is very strong bipartisan support for reform, because actions do speak louder than words and my hope is that colleagues will join senator blackburn and senator durbin and others in seeking action on a very doable, practical, politically achievable bill, that targets the design of this product, much as we would a safer car or stopping addiction to cigarettes. And tobacco and nicotine. Big tech is very much in danger, i would say it is the next big tobacco, and im hoping that it will join in this effort to make its products safer and in some ways what we face is a gardenvariety challenge to improve the reliability and safety of a product that uses a black box that very few people understand, which makes it more complex and mysterious, but no less urgent and ultimately understandable by everyday americans. Everyday americans understand the harm that is being done. We have seen and heard it from moms and dads, from teenagers who have come to us and pleaded, absolutely implored us to act now, not at some distant point in future. By the end of the year, im very hopeful that well have a vote, and that it will be an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote in part thanks to the testimony that you have offered today. It has been tremendously impactful and moving and very powerful in its sciencebased persuasion, you are an engineer, you are not a lawyer, but ultimately engineering is what may save facebook from the perils and dangers that it is creating along with other social media, it is not alone and my hope is that we will move forward so that in effect, we can make big tech at the next big tobacco in terms of a concerted effort to reduce its harm and inform the public about how they can do it as well. So, thank you for your testimony today and this hearing will be adjourned but of the record will remain open for a week in case colleagues have any questions they want to submit in writing and in the meantime, again, thank you for your very impactful and important testimony today. The meeting is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [background noises] [background noises] [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] tonight, President Joe Biden delivers his 2024 state of the Union Address to a joint session of congress, join c span for a preview of his remarks, followed by the president s speech, the gop response and viewer reaction, that starts at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. And online, at cspan. Org. A healthy democracy doesnt just look like this, it looks like this. Where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed, the republic thrives. 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