Transcripts For CSPAN3 Washington 20240703

Host we are back with political historian and author eli merritt who will be discussing his new book looking at the political divisions among the countrys founders during the American Revolution and what it can teach us about todays political polarization. Good morning, eli. Guest good to be with you. Host inc. You for joining us. What does the book focus on . Why did you decide to write it . Guest is based on a misconception that we have and specifically that the American Revolution. Historians have taught what the founders feared the most during the revolution was the power of the british army and navy. The book reveals that is not the case. What they feared most about was breaking apart and the disunion that would lead to civil wars. The book tells a story about that major themes and elucidates briefly a theme i discuss is you look at why the founders of the United States perpetuated slavery. There are many explanatory models. Known to us is the example of White Supremacy and why they perpetuated slavery, and economic reason, and they both north and south intimately tied to a heinous economic system. My book introduces the survivalists interpretation. If norton states and delegates to the Continental Congress had insisted upon ending the slave trade or a gradual emancipation of slaves, he wouldve had a secession of all Southern States even then. That wouldve led to the force over finance and land. Host that is interesting. We know there lots of books written about the American Revolution. Why do you consider yours different . What do you hope readers may learn that they have not learned other places . Guest the survivalist interpretation, to perceive what motivated the founders. For history is my second career. I actually practiced psychiatry for 20 years. Some time ago i came to the conclusion that most motivating factor is fear. I came to the conclusion it is the driver of life. I looked at the American Revolution and the vast majority written about the revolution are military but this is a political history. I learned what they feared most and the consequences of that fear. An overriding discovery was i said they did what they did to save their souls from civil wars. They made compromises, they perpetuated slavery, they adopted the declaration of independence and elected George Washington as the commander and chief. All of these had to do with the fear that if they broke apart it would fall into civil wars. That is the conclusion that has not been written before about that founding period. Host i want to been up the phone lines and let the listeners and viewers know they can call in. We are taking questions for author eli merritt. You can haves ask questions about his book or American History, particularly the American Revolution. Democrats 202 7488000, republicans 202 7488001, independents 202 7488002. You can also send a text message to 202 7488003. We will get to those calls in just a moment. I want to read an excerpt from the book. The title of the book is disunion among ourselves, the perilous politics of the American Revolution. The founding of a single United States was hardly the easy mayor of 13 homogenou liberty loving states so often depicted in American History. A single uniteds was not ordained or even desired as a matter of first preference by most of the founders. Instead, the American Union was unwelcome alliance for colonies in regions for the maintenance of internal and external secity. Capturing the spirit of the rly republicans, that of the shotgun wedding. It is the new Southern States that have chosen to walk away from the union of 13 and they would have had wars raking out. I know we have been talking about this perspective as far as preserving the union, but can you give us more of a lay of the land where was the country, of the disputes between the colonies and founders as they began to focus and play out during those times of the American Revolution. Guest you had a great summary of the book. What i will try to do particularly since we are so near the fourth of july is i will say a word or two about how and why all of the 13 colonies adopted the resolution for independence on july 2 and two days later agreed unanimously to the declaration of independence on july 4. The situation was combustible in the month of june. For all of that month, the Union Counties and most of the southern colonies had been waiting a long time to declare independence. The middle colonies and South Carolina, looking at the situation of the middle colonies. On june 7, they said the time is come, i am proposing a resolution for independence. The next day, Thomas Jefferson said the middle colony from South Carolina is in the center of the Continental Congress in which they said, if this move forward without approval we will secede from this union. That is the dynamic they were experiencing at the time. That was a situation too hot to handle. They were not going to back down so they said lets give it more time and we will formerly vote for independence on july 1 was the date. Even on that date the pennsylvania and South Carolina voted no. New york abstained and delaware split its vote. So why did those little colonies ultimately decide to join into the Independence Movement the next day . If you envision the map, we have new england and to the north of the middle colonies, virginia and those to the south. Middle colonies were squeezed in the middle and in a desperate military situation. They were either going to have to fall into civil war against the proindependence southerners and new englanders or they would have to join in. They realize this because the super majority voted for independence, select the theme of do or die, on july 1 they decided to join in. One of the best examples of the book of i shotgun wedding. Of a shotgun wedding. Host you talked about the fact that preserving the union meant preserving slavery to avoid civil war, but we know that 100 years later there was a civil war and my question to you is, do you consider that something inevitable that something they were able to delay it or what are your thoughts that there was eventually civil war at the Founding Fathers feared. Guest what is most remarkable and reveals more is in fact this fear. There would be the fear of a secession and there were considerations. Even that was not a problem for them. Many thought it might be better to form separate confederations. They were convinced they would fall into civil war. At the time the fear was not civil war over slavery but the fear was that there was civil war with 400,000 enslaved people would rise up and join them. There was a sense of continuity. The survivalist interpretation of a shotgun wedding, the civil war started in 1774 and the first Continental Congress and persisted all the way to the civil war. Whether or not the civil war was inevitable, and away if there had not been an American Revolution and had not formed the United States of america we should assume, based on the history of great britain, that slavery would have ended in 1838 when britain ended slavery. For those who dont know, that is conjecture. The reason the civil war took place is human beings, namely southerners, they fell into sectarian politics with one another and there was a concept they needed to protect their property. Host ray is first up in aurora, colorado, on the independent line. Caller thanks for taking my call. I am a registered libertarian and i wanted to touch upon your mention of fear. I personally fear the idea of a central state in size and scope that they would have complete control over its people. I was wondering if you could comment on that and if you could name some of the people during that period who shared those kinds of concerns. Guest i think you said of fear of two large of a federal government . Caller basically, central power. Guest you hit the nail on the head. That was the dominant fear for most of the founders. Independent colonies went on to be independent states and they werent sure whether they were forming 13 republics, which each of the state would be there republic and they would confederate with other states the concept of state sovereignty was overwhelming and they were extraordinarily fearful from taking power from the state into a central government. That is one of the reasons by it took six or seven years to get our first constitution and the articles of confederation torn ratified to 1781 was the best they could do because of this fear of centralized power. So the question today is do we fear centralized power . I think we have to have checks and balances and separation of power. The states do act somewhat as a check on federal power. We have a unique system where i think states do have too much power. Host lets go to the democratic line, carolyn from stroudsburg, pennsylvania. Caller i would like your guest to take it one step further. We can understand fear generating their actions, what motivated the fear, was it not greed that they wanted to hold on, they had vast new land that they wanted to hold onto. They couldnt do it without slavery and they couldnt do it as individual colonies. Think people gating factor was agreed. Guest want to agree with you on that, as there might be many powerful motivating factors. Greed is one. What i like is what i think of as complex history. We have a problem with oversimplified history and that there is over only one interpretation. I find if you only adopt one view you miss a lot of opportunity for intellectual depth but also for us to mature as people and as a nation. This idea of greed and economic interpretation is 100 correct but i also think the white supremacist interpretation is correct and the survivalist interpretation is correct. One of my most Important Reasons for feeling disappointed at the reaction to the 1619 project is the all or nothing thinking. It is important to look at the origin story of the africanamerican in this country , 1776 july is the origin story. That is an example where we could have one and one origin story in the United States. I love complex history and i agree with you plus other interpretations on top. Host next up is joel in idaho, independent line. Caller theres always been a debate over whether the civil war was due to slavery, it seems like you lean toward states rights. I would like to get your, on where you think the civil work belongs. Guest the civil war, what we find is the essential history going back to the 16th 19 was slavery. If that had not been divided the country, almost 250 years we would not have had civil war. The question of estate sovereignty was important to them but i do think slavery, the number one cause and there was distention with regard to state sovereignty. It is important to remember and deepen our sense of history of what happened leading to the civil war and that is that Abraham Lincoln was elected and that caused worry and fear about the determination of the Republican Party to end the expansion of slavery in the country. So they seceded and then civil war came about because secession was determined on this basis of the need to unify the country. So if slavery is the number one cause the driving factor we should look to how we can try to other factors such as state sovereignty. Host lets go to salisbury, north carolina, lewis is calling on the democratic line. Caller top of the morning to you. I have a comment and question. We know the slave owners used money because they had to free the slaves and reimburse. What do you think about reparations that the blacks havent received. If the blacks could have received some type of reparations, we wouldnt need his student loans, housing, social service anything the government is fighting against for black people to receive. My question is, do you think the white governors and mayors of the Southern States are going to crt your book in the future . Guest i appreciate that question. It brings to mind what did happen in the British Empire about slavery in 1838, they did shouldve been compensating the enslaved people but compensated those who were freeing the slaves. About reparations, my deepest belief is that our country has so much to do to reconcile with the history and the harms and the intergenerational transgressions passed down to the africanamericans from 1619. I believe in terms of the value they would give. I am not sure where i come down on that but i think i am more interested in the symbolic and emotional and apology that may take lace in association with reparations. I am in favor of that. I write a weekly newsletter on a sub stack account called juneteenth. I decided that the day we celebrate the image patient the emancipation of slaves is the most important. I wrote that essentially it is july 4, i dont want to downplay the importance of it because i value it hugely but there are 1. 59 people oppressed someone, and tolerated at the martial law. Lets compare the harm and oppression that africanamericans have suffered since 1619. At the time the emancipation proclamation at the time of juneteenth there were 4 million slaves in the United States. Im comfortable in saying the most important event that has ever happened in our history is the emancipation of enslaved people, no matter when you want to pick the date. Lets just stick with juneteenth which is now a federal holiday. Host i was going to ask you about juneteenth. You wrote on your sub stack and i appreciate you mentioning it. You can find his essays and posts about juneteenth. The headline is why juneteenth matters far more today than the fourth of july. Lets go to the phone lines. As a reminder, democrats you can call and have a question or comment for eli merritt. The number is 202 7488000, republicans 202 7488001, independents 202 7488002. You can ask him about American History also the author of a book titled disunion among ourselves, a perilous politics of the American Revolution. Lets hear from tom in vermont on the independent line. Caller good morning cspan and thank you for a wonderful show. Host what is your question or comment this morning . Caller you do a great job. I would like to talk about our history with corporations and when we first came over 100 years at least before 17 76. They were the Founding Fathers. They came over with corporations and the royal marines. In the Indian Company and others , they had poor whites from the 17th hundreds they treated as slaves. They also had bounties on indigenous tribes. They still have up until 40 years ago, the marines were protecting corporations and now we outsource to people like blackstone and others. It is just the money that runs the world and we have done a horrible job of it. There was a book 10 years ago with the economic hitman and there was a wonderful book by walter mosley, man in my basement. I better stop. Host go ahead, eli. Guest i am also in vermont right now near lincoln. I would say an answer to your question, it is so important. If you look back at these interpretations we discussed in regard to slavery, i think what she meant to say it was capitalist greed. The problem we have is is obviously not capitalism. Problem we have is extremism of any kind. I think you could also say when capitalism becomes too extremist and there are not checks on capitalism and if i could pick my favorite form of government it would be a mix between a capitalist society and a europeanstyle socialism where we are not at the whims of powerhungry and greedy people. It is a critical piece of our history and stability, but i do believe we have a bit of capitalist extremism in our politics. Host lets hear from michael from boston on the republican line. Caller thank you. I definitely have a couple of things i want to say. I called on the republican line because i am a republican. People forget in 1954 the republicans basically came democrats when lbj and Barry Goldwater basically stole the Republican Party. The second point i want to make, he mentioned 1619. The United States had different ports. Slaveowners burn to death based on their color. It captured the atlantic slave trade captured by pirates and brought to the u. S. Coastline as indentured servants. Indentured servants is a seven year sentence. In 1631, that all changed. When he says black people have been suffering here since 1619, have to remember there was one point of import of enslaved people. He had him of the northeast coast and imported it down in the south. They were imported in, the first, as indentured servants. It turns out they work extremely successful. Host i think we got your points. I want to let eli get a chance to respond. Guest i think what you have done is added texture to the early history and the period surrounding 1619, which is appreciated. You are obviously a a student of history. What you commented on captured my attention is that you are at republican and we will all agree that we have unfortunate polarization and specific ways of doing labels and Party Affiliations of others. It wouldnt be a problem if we had more parties. But most important is that all of us put the u. S. Constitution and the rule of law and democratic norms and democracy and Voting Rights above self but above party. Being a constitution loving publican, we need to keep reminding citizens of what our duties and obligations are when it comes to the country in relationship to Political Parties. Host our next caller is and who not calling from philadelphia on the democratic line. Caller what i would like to say is the beauty of history cannot be changed. The United States when they talk about history, especially if they are not black, to try to tell us how we should feel and the simple truth is that through history passed down through generations, we can only rectify what is the cause and effect of slavery. We can no longer foundation only continue to be humble and be constantly disrespected as far as you rectify the effects of slavery. You cant keep pushing it back. There is a gentleman who is really at the catalyst for reparations and that is jason blake. Thank you for always keeping us in perspective. We always show our resilience and strength. We are not simply, as far as reparations go we know what the definition is, but the government continues to keep that on our backs. Instead of saying we apologize, the jewish people, datum american people, asian people. When it comes to us, it keeps planning to be a fairytale. I agree with the lady saying it is greed. It could be nothing else. All of the contributions black people made that were stolen. You really cant price on 400 years. The scale let you even up. Host weight got your point. Lets let a light to the comments. Guest i agree with what you have said. The thing that gives me a sense of optimism is the nations history has been based on progress towards greater rights and freedoms for all people and i am dedicated to the proposition that progress is essential to a democracy. We have to keep moving forward and we are moving towards a democracy based on the quality and equal justice and equal opportunity. I will say that i have a favorite sonic that is going to come out and the title i gave to it is 1776 and the right of revolution. I just briefly want to say that essentially the declaration of independence was embracing this concept of the right of revolution but it means the right of resistance. To make progress on these pains described, we need to embrace this resistance. Mlk said that we have a moral obligation to oppose unconstitutional laws and i also quote john lewis who said, have to stand up and make good trouble. My last line is the inaugural poem at bidens inauguration, she said the nation is not broken it is just unfinished. I think it is a fight we have to fight the fight in a nonviolent way the way the founders intended. The declaration of dependence does not say one word about taking up arms. It says how we want to withdraw and form our own free country for white people, that is. Host i want to ask you, does the early history of the country compared to the current polarized Political Landscape we see today and are there any lessons you think could be applied today . Guest i think one of the general themes of the book is dont mess with disunion because as they feared and as we saw during the civil war i dont see any good reason for reckless demagoguery taking place. So discussion of disunion is damaging to us. Within their own white compounds of politics, the founders practiced this virtual where they interacted with one another even when passions were high and from the perspective of civility and respect and attempts to understand and cooperation and compromise. My biggest fear is demagoguery and demagogues, fear mongering, hatemongering, bigotry and things like lies taking place. People will lose face in the government if these are the dominant forces taking place. The future can be bright but if i had magic buttons i would turn off demagogues in government, media and for both Political Parties i would turn down the extremism on both sides. Host lets go to florida, frank is on the independent line. Caller good morning. Thank you for having me. I am calling from the independent line because i was republican but i no longer recognize the Republican Party. We know history has a tendency to repeat itself. Our history as black americans is clearly stated. We are seeing the return of jim crow type legislation all over the nation. I am curious as to what you think the endgame is here and the other question i have is that i have never seen enslaved or marginalized people when their freedom with anything other than bloodshed. Considering the fact that nothing here in america has changed and we are digressing back toward a time that america was not a great place for black folks to live and not that it has ever been, what do you think the real solution is, because we are putting bandaids on things but something is actually happening. The only thing that is happening is that it is progressively getting worse. It is definitely not getting better. What is your take, real world . What you think is happening or is going to happen or needs to happen . Caller favor in the nation is Martin Luther king. We need to turn my favorite in the nation is Martin Luther king. We need to turn back to him. We have forgotten what his teachings were and his nonstop, nonviolent protesting and dissent. We know it is fundamental aspect of democracy and pushing towards progress and safeguarding freedoms and rights. So lots of people are pessimists and many things are happening. The only thing i can say is mass demonstration and protest and as mlk said, the struggle just has to continue. I have faith that we do this and fight against demagoguery. I think we can overcome this difficult time. If they have led shed, i hope it will be the type that took place in the 1960s in the civil rights movement. It did happen but the premise was not bloodshed but sometimes in the nonviolent protests mlk was organizing, there was some bloodshed by white supremacists. If we succeed at some point i dont think it will happen in the next decade or two. I would say lets study the American Revolution where we say, we just want out of this to radical government and we are going to separate and form a government based on equality and fundamental rights. Im not predicting that. I would say this fourth of july Pay Attention to the right of revolution and right of resistance best embodied by mlk. Host i want to ask you a question we received on twitter from steve who asks, was aaron burr the type of character are Founding Fathers feared most . Guest i wrote a piece about amber because Alexander Hamilton , aaron burr was going to become president and could have if Alexander Hamilton had supported him. Aaron burr was not necessarily a demagogue but he had a personality that i think would be correct to say could tilt into authoritarianism. They had some political rivalries but if a personality like aaron per had reached the presidency, aaron burr if he had reached presidency, i think it wouldve been a very dangerous person. I am not an expert on him but that is what i would say. Host norma in las cruces, new mexico, republican line. Caller thank you for taking my call. I am 78 years old and it is a shock to me all the sudden that people think this is the worst country in the world that exists. I have a degree in history in 1984. Things have changed a lot in the way history is taught. Every country in the world can go back and look at mistakes that have been made, but this country has tried, regardless of what others inc. , two rectify the issues that existed back when the country was founded. My family came to this country in 1912 from italy and they were very happy to come here. They wanted to work, get a job, let their childrens have an education, and they were not of means at all. They had to have a sponsor and learn english and go through all the rules, and they did. Even though they left their birth country of italy, they were very happy for the opportunities that america has given. My one question is, as far as reparations go, i reject the idea that every person alive till now is responsible for the civil war and slavery. My people werent even here then. So im going to absolve myself from that issue because there a lot of sides, my father was in the marine corps and served with a lot of different people. What was done to the japanese americans citizens during world war ii under fdr confiscated their property and put them in camps. Many of those japaneseamericans went to fight in world war ii for this country, even though their property was taken and businesses were confiscated, they did not get reparations. As my father use to say, he was a 30 year marine veteran, when you are fighting in a war, it doesnt matter who or what you are, we all lead the same bleed the same. Host i think we have your point. Lets let eli respond. Guest so glad you know all of this history but i want to encourage you that when you run into people, encourage them to study history. I dont necessarily have an answer but i will say the idea of complex history for me provides an answer. We a founding period, the mirkin revolution, what we discover is the glory of it, which is the encouragement they had to accomplish what they accomplish they took on the might of the british army and took on extraordinary dangers of this war. We had the tragic part and they are both deeply real and i believe we need to accept both. We need the ability to seek multidimensional history. It can be hard to take that in. Psychologists talk about cognitive dissidents. When there are two contradictory concepts we tend to ignore them. The way as people mature as a society is we stay with it and let the truth of the past melt away our cognitive dissidents so we knew, more complex and we can say two things are true at the same time and take the either or approach. Host sam in glencoe, illinois, democratic line. Caller this is the first time i have ever called into the show. I didnt realize the middle state issue going on. But the time spent writing the constitution and establishing the federalism aspect of our government, when we had the civil war, i hate to talk about what could have happened if Abraham Lincoln would have lived , but dont you think at the end of the civil war it was time for a constitutional conference whereby a lot of the things that brought about the civil war were the powers of the smaller states. Equal senators or the electoral college, these are things that give advantage to the smaller states and detract from true democracy. As long as we have a handful of senators in small states that can control everything, including the supreme court, we seem to have fallen into a state of tyranny of the minority. I was just wondering if you thought the civil war really never ended. We just ended slavery but we didnt end our system of government that allow that to happen for so long a true representative government. I would say that my first area of interest is the American Revolution but i have two areas of great interest in the work i do. One is the founding period and also the period called the critical period. My other greatest area of interest is actually democracy and what happens in democracies when there is too much democracy. We are at a point in history where i hear frequently more democracy, more democracy. A part of me agrees but i do want the maximum democracy but we cant forget there is Something Else in a democracy as important and that is checks and balances on all forms. If you take the history of democracy back to athens and the Roman Republic onward, what was created in 1877 and ratified was a system of government that was not democratic enough but had explicitly imposed checks and balances. I am not certain at this point the senate has a check on the very Democratic House of representatives but that was the original intent. I do believe we have to be very careful with expanding democracy, democracy and one example is, in the early 1970s we decided we were going to democratize the primaries. We would not only have the democratic vote in the general election for president but also the democratic vote that led to the nominations for both parties. I know on the face of it that sounds wonderful, but if the parties had been in charge of choosing the candidates, we would have not gotten our first demographic demagogue as president , and that was donald trump. The checks and balance would stop demagogues and authoritarians from getting into office. Host next up is rich in ohio, republican line. Caller great conversations going on. It is interesting on defending peoples rights. In the civil war we went to war for peoples rights. Right now we are flipping over to superior rights. Are you going to start a war so you can have superior rights over me. When you start to say, i am going to give you superior rights over me by going to war. It gets liquid and also part. On rights, we dont talk about responsibilities. When you drive, you have a right to drive in wreck a car every five minutes. I am wondering in the civil war when we could avoid it, it could have been different if we had had people who could argue better. Guest you said a number of things and i speak to the one that seems most important to me that you emphasized, and i would say it 99 of the time when people talk about rights and duties of democracy they dont mention the word duties. We do have a rights and we have duties to safeguard our democracy in order that it will continue to give us rights. At together some of the things discussed is how do we overcome antidemocratic measures and push for a true multiracial democracy. It is nonviolent but i think of Alexander Hamiltons musical that says rise up, open your eyes, rise up. We need to do that nonviolently. It is our job to fight back against tyranny. Our job is if the officials arent doing their job we have to protest and throw them out. We are rising up nonviolently against oppressive measures. We have a moral obligation to oppose unconstitutional laws. If i could press another button i would establish say 10,000 mlk nonviolent protest Training Centers throughout this country. I think that might help get us there. Host we are running out of time but i want to ask you, you talked about the rhetoric and toning it down. What would you do to tone down the political rhetoric of today . Guest a great question. We look at twitter. Technology is implicated in the problems we are having. We do not want to restrict free speech but another thing i have written about is we have lost our center in ethics, what we call democratic norms and ethical leadership. One possible solution could be how do we once again insist, take the media that they operate like how they were under rush limbaugh. The code of ethics, is with everyones time is the npr handbook of ethics. It will warm your heart but also inspire you to see. They are striving for the code of ethics. Ethical behavior and electing folks who are ethical. That is a tough things because we are passionate voters. Host we are going to stop it there. Eli merritt, historian at Vanderbilt University and author of the book disunion among our selves