Atlantic outside the l. A. Times and many others. Her article in los magazine, the hugo problem, was a long reads best of 2015, and shes in conversation today with author erika hayasaki, who is also based in southern california. Most recent feature stories appeared in the New York Times magazine, wired the atlantic, others, a former national for the l. A. Times. She teaches storytelling at uc irvine. Shes an associate professor in the Literary Journalism program. Her books, the death class and somewhere have been released in 2014 and 2022, and she was named an npr best book of the year. You thank you. And i gotta i wonderful to be together with my longtime the of your work friends and im so excited for the outdoor world and i was going to ask you to just by reading a little bit okay all our. Yeah okay actually i should put my glasses right now. Get comfy. Yeah. You want to sit through. Yeah. Okay. So. Im going to read the chapter. Its just going savanna and its about the main character in my nonfiction, a young woman named la Fontaine Gray went, who was living in fargo, north. And when an eight months pregnant when she was murdered and the story illustrates, a much larger issue, which is the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous Women, the United States. So this is just to give you a of a little bit about and who she was. Thank you. Savanna born on august 9th, 1995, on a mild summer day in bellecourt north on the Turtle Mountain reservation, the home of her people, the Turtle Mountain band of chippewa Turtle Mountain floats above the prairie on northern plains. Its a vast patchwork of rolling hills, wetlands and flat plateaus. Poplar oak, aspen and willow trees, grace landscape, shimmering lakes and a sprawling greenspace called tribal park. Legend has it that Turtle Mountain got its name when the anishinaabe chippewa glimpsing a shape. The horizon saw a turtle, its head pointing west, its tail to the east. Another story goes that the mountain named for a man called mcinnes or turtle who walked its length in a day before treaties, in 1863 and 1892, stripped them of most of their land, the Turtle Mountain band, were across nearly 20 million acres in eastern and northern north dakota in 1953. The reservation was nearly erased from this earth when Congress Passed a resolution dictating that certain tribes be, quote, freed from federal supervision and, quote it was a blatant attempt as previous governments efforts had been, to break up tribes or to force them to assimilate a sustained campaign by patrick grunow, chairman, the Turtle Mountain band of chippewa advisory committee, ojibwe novelist louise erdrich, grand grandfather saved the tribe from termination. Even so, today, the reservation contains fewer than 75,000 acres. Savanna lived bellecourt only briefly. Like many european settlements in north america, the town on the northern once carried a chippewa name. Sip it, sing meaning creek that sings with life giving water for a stream that meanders through. Other than the bow of a plant Turtle Mountain community, a Shopping Mall and jobs in government and construction. There wasnt much work in belcourt, so the gray one soon moved to fargo. When savanna was ten, they moved again to the spirit lake indian reservation, the home of joes tribe. It was here on the shores of devils lake, which the spirits nation call near walk on spirit water, which across the grasslands for 200 miles that savanna became a young woman. The family settled in tokyo, rural hamlet, with scarcely 700 residents. Now, berta and joe both got jobs at the sioux manufacturing corporation, 40 cotton, a tribal owned factory that produces kevlar panels, helmets, camouflage nets and other military equipment other than the factory and spirit lake Casino Employment was mostly centered on tribal and federal jobs in agencies like bureau of Indian Affairs and the Indian Health service. But years of government neglect. Inequities in housing and health care, bad roads and on fertile land also meant the reservation and bore high rates of poverty, according to the 2010 census, over 40 of tribal families were living below the poverty level, and 882 households were headed by single mothers, raising 1392 children under the age of 18. In 2016, the bureau of Indian Affairs labors for statistics. Estimated unemployment on the reservation to be at 59. 45 . The gray one family had grown in the years since savannahs. Savannah was now the eldest of four. She was a sweet, easygoing child and responsibility while her parents were still at work. Savannah lock the front door after school and mind her younger siblings. Joe in nevada arrived home. Their lives around revolved around each other. Parents and many relatives live nearby and the culture and traditions of the spirit lake tribe. There were powwows and, sacred pipe ceremonies and prayer walks. People around savannah spoke the dakota dialect. Her elders passed down wisdom stories that originated hundreds of years ago. Joe and a bird on savannah. The importance of education. And she did well in school. But in the idle summers on the plains her life was lived outdoors. She loved riding horses, country music. Her cowboy boots. There are photographs. Savannah and her younger sister, kayla sprinkled across her subtle social media pages from their teen years, sitting astride their horses speeding and bucky on prairie wearing tshirts, shorts or jeans. Their long hair cascades down. They look serene. The sky above them is wide blue. The sunlight strong. In some of the photographs, the sisters are riding together. Savannah front. Kayla leaning into her big sister. Savannah came of age as social began to take off like the rest of her generation. Savannah took to the new technology as easily as she had learned to print her name, countless selfies appeared facebook images that her told stories of who was whom she loved and who she was becoming. Her interest in fashion, jewelry and makeup gradually came to illustrate her feed. She became good at tilting head, striking a pouty. Her hair falling just. But sometimes the photos were less posed and glamorous. Her and her brother joe in the car joking around to some song playing her and kayla in halloween costumes, mugging for the camera. Then savannah fell in love. In 2011. During sophomore year at devils lake high school, she met a freshman named, ashton metheny. Also a member of the spirit like tribe. A tall, thin boy with easy smile for. Two months they were just friends. And then ashton asked savanna out when. It came to their eldest daughters love life. Savannahs were strict. Joe was vigilant on 25th, 2017. Savannah described their early romance on her Facebook Page. So anyone that knows us knows we took our relationship super slow months actually getting to know each other before dating a month into dating until first kiss. We werent sexually active until over a year dating. When he came to my house we werent allowed to go into room. He met my parents and uncles when he first came over. They sat at the table and my uncles and dad asked him all kinds of questions. Kind of scary. I could go to his house, but had to be home by like 830 lol. After turned 18 in 2013, we finally camped with each other. But we snuck out before all the time. When she made this entry savannah was over the moon. The month before, on january 16th, she had posted selfie holding up to pink pregnancy sticks. She was pregnant. Ashton stood next to her, grinning, his arm draped over her shoulder. Im so excited, she wrote. I cant keep quiet no more. The baby was due a september 20th, and her february 25th post. Savannah spoke of their relationship, their future. Weve been through lot of bad and good, she wrote. Weve talked every day, a few since weve met. No matter terms we were on. Hes goofy, best friend. Im just so happy and so much so. Were going to have a mini us to tell our stories to. I cannot wait. Thank you so much. Make sure you have microphone. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I especially appreciate that because in that short segment, you are humanizing. Mm hmm. Savannah and bringing us into her world, and were hearing her voice. And so i appreciate passage. I wanted talk to you. I wanted to start our conversation, i guess, with the beginnings of this project for which i know start. Five years ago, as youre really starting to into the reporting on missing and murdered Indigenous Women. Can you tell us about how you came into this reporting and how you eventually were led to the story of savannah. Thats a wonderful question. It came about i actually had been writing about sexual violence, Domestic Violence for many years. And this time about five years ago. I also through some cousins in oklahoma, had learned that i chickasaw three in oklahoma. So my cousins ended up becoming citizens of the tribe and they they kept telling me all this information about that and so i just started really following native american stories from from then on and happened to see a story in a fargo newspaper about savannahs murder and i was really intrigued right away. It was just one of those things where you see something, you think thats, ive got to pursue this, ive got to find what this is all about. And so the more i did, the more i found out that it was this enormous historical problem involving missing and murdered native american women and it wasnt just savannah. It was it was thousands of women who who fates were basically unknown because no one was really looking for them or keeping track of them. So thats how i got started. Mm hmm. Yeah. And within the communities. And with the families, certainly the women whove gone missing, whove been murdered there are memory is always there. Theyre always holding hope. But within the community of, you know, beyond it seems like theres been a silencing or a reluctance for a lot of people even understand the issues that play. Right. I know that the terminology that you bring up in your book which ive come to understand, to an epidemic is also a terminology that some in the community feel is, you know, more than that. Can you talk a little bit about that, the human. Sure. Kind tragedy of. Sure. When people really talking about this issue, maybe four or five years ago, they would call it an epidemic of violence and theres a a scholar, academic named sarah deer and shes one of macarthur genius grant for her book that she on native american and rape and. You know i interviewed her and one of the things she said to me was that its not an epidemic. Its its really an ongoing historical crisis, because an epidemic is really in the language of epidemiology and thats not what this is. And so, you know, i learned a kind of talk about it in a different way and not throw out like, oh, its an epidemic because its so easy to Say Something like that but yeah, yeah. So i relied on a lot of native American Scholars to guide me as i was writing and reporting yeah. Which is part of the, the reporting process of getting into this world so closely. Another element that you bring up in your book is about how missing murdered women are murdered more than once. And sense. Can you talk about what that means . And that was another quote brought from right experts, the community. But it seemed pretty profound. Yeah. Native american advocates often talk about this and what they typically say is native women go missing or are murdered three times in real life, in media and in the data, because there has been no federal collection of data on these cases. That has changed now. But thats why its its been this issue that a lot of people werent even of that most people i talk to when i was working on this story, they would say to me, i have no idea that was going on. And of it, i think, too, is that for many of us who live in cities, even though native americans live, 70 live in urban areas. Native americans seem to be invisible and people tend to put native americans in the past and not think of them as being present. And so to me, because, you know, theres 574 tribes in the United States of varying sizes and some very tiny some are huge. And but people just have not been educated to really think about our native american. You know ancestors and who is here now and to see them so. Thats thats what advocates mean when they talk about that. Yeah some of the statistics pretty startling. Yeah. And i guess i would i was hoping you could a little bit about the structural issues at play. What i just what did you find out why this is such prevalent issue . I know theres more one kind of route to cause to it, but can you talk a little bit about why this is . Yeah. Well, i think its the main thing is its been going on for hundreds of years. I mean, since european colonization and european ends came over and they started pushing native americans out of their land, stealing their territory, and then the United States. Basically enabled all of. Most notably president Andrew Jackson in what was it, 1830 with the indian removal act and essentially what what what they were trying to do was exterminate native american tribes. And when that didnt work, they tried other things. So in any case native american, women were just seen as not valuable and werent protected. You know, they werent seen as really human, i think. And thats one reason that this has gone on for so long and. And then the other thing is there are some structural issues as mentioned, one huge issue is the jurisdiction problem and what happens. A native American Woman goes missing. It depends on where she is in terms of who is going to actually search for her. And lets say its on the reservation and its a very large reservation and a lot of reservations do not have more than a few tribal officers. And the other thing that happens is often when a young woman goes missing. Her family will come to the police and say, you know, my daughter is missing, doesnt do this. Im worried about her. And if the person the young woman is over age or 18 or 20, 21, the response usually, well, shes a grown up, probably just went off. Shes probably parting with her friends and i cant you how many mothers have told this story over and over and over again. So they dismissed right away when theyre trying to get assistance. And then there arent resources to even once they do decide to look for someone to even go out there and really solve a case right away. And in fact, most many of these cases, the families are the ones who find their loved because they know them well. They know their patterns and. They end up they end up organizing on social media. And within the tribal communities, search parties. And because know they cant rely on Law Enforcement to help them. Yeah. So and even in this case, as you begin to get into your book and people start to realize savanna, we dont know where she is and, their response. Can you talk a little bit about response . Sure. Enforcement at that point, yeah. Savanna lived an Apartment Building with her. Her parents and two brothers and her. No, her sister wasnt living there at the time. Thats. And they lived in a basement apartment and it was a three Story Building and savanna was a very she was very independent in some ways, like she worked. She was always making money she was always trying to better herself. And but she had a very small circle, like she didnt go out with friends. She really stuck close to her family or to and when he he was in town and he lived somewhere at this point. So when she disappeared, savannahs mother, nobody knew that something immediately was because it just was so, so out of character for her to just disappear like that. And she been upstairs in a neighbors apartment and the neighbor had said she left and they didnt know where she went. She went for a walk. So the police did look. But because they didnt have a search for this apartment, they kind of did a cursory search. So thats a whole other thing that happened and the fargo police were in charge of this investigation because it was a fargo. It a state, north dakota. So they they had jurisdiction. This case, you know, they did do a lot, you know, when she went missing, they sent out a lot of officers and detectives they had, you know, dogs out looking sniffing and helicon overhead circling above red river. But the problem is that they didnt listen. The family. Hmm. And not that it would have saved savannah, but it would have saved a lot of agony. Mm hmm. So, yeah. Can you talk a little about how the reporting process went for although i know a lot of the reporting happening during the covid pandemic, which was challenging, but just the process of getting to know this community, that, you know, you dont live in, you know, to no family and getting to know savannah even though shes no longer alive. How do you begin that process what was that like for you can you just tell us a little bit about that . Sure. Well, i started by contacting native american advocates, sort of talk to them about the bigger issue and introduce myself and, you know, there was one particular Nonprofit Organization that have been doing this work out of montana for many, many years. And so i, i introduced myself to them and we just stayed in touch. And i, you know, asked them a lot of questions and and then i once trial was, was. For one of savannahs. He wasnt he convicted of killing her, but he was convicted of some other things once that that started, i contacted the prosecutor and introduced myself and and i knew what i wanted to do. I knew that i didnt want to write about this grizzly murder, that that was not the that i really wanted to focus on. So i think i just my intention signs were very clear with people from the start. So even though it took a long time and it was you know and it was very slow i think patient always off you know if you dont i mean i know some reporters are very and they think thats the best way to get get what they want get a story. But i, i have never found that to be true. So thats thats really what i did. And the ended up vouching for me with a family because they were very close the family and they were interviewing all the family members ashton all the time before this went to trial and, they developed a strong relationship with the family. And so i had tried to reach out to norberto gray when savannahs mom and they were not she was not doing any interviews. They would hold like when they were still looking for savannah would hold like marches and awareness walks and searches her and the family would be. But they would give interviews because. They were very, very private people. So this was devastating for them. So it took me a long time. Repeat oddly. I mean, it probably took me about a year and a half until she agreed to talk to me and during that time id been to fargo a couple of times id been there three times and so fortunately i developed those relationships before covid struck because i was all set to go to north dakota again when that happened and. So during you know, i wrote the book during covid and that was really tough. That was really hard because like to be be being the place where im writing about be with the people that im writing about, like all do right and i had to figure out, okay, how am i going to capture these scenes . How am i going to capture dialog . How am i going to do all this . And so i relied again a lot on different sources who really help me out with a lot of talking sense social media had a lot of information on. It like when they were searching for savannah there was a Facebook Page and constant updates. So there was like a timeline which was really, really helpful as i was trying to reconstruct what happened to her. And then the local media. I have to give them a lot of credit. They they covered this really, really well. They were really diligent they were really respectful of the family. And, you know, they didnt shove in their face and say, well, do you thinks going to happen now or . Some stupid question. And so, you know, i just i relied on some of their reporting, too and i made relationships with a few other reporters so they knew who i was. And they saw me at the trial and so it just was this this process. Yeah. Yeah. You know, i know that you were at the l. A. Times book festival this weekend and the panel was true. And i appreciated one of the comments on the panel somebody said, you know, to do this kind of reporting with sensitivity without exploiting people, you want to bring the humanity to these inhumane stories. Right. And you certainly worked incredibly hard to do that. And i just wonder if you could tell us a little bit about savannah, the person who she is. I mean, we got yeah a little bit that in your reading yeah you know was it that you came to admire about her beyond portraying her as, you know, a victim crime which i know it was not ever just your intent. It was about the larger issues and who she was the like, yeah, yeah. One of my goals with the book was really to try and sketch portrait of her as best as i could. And that was hard because like ashton did talk to me. I tried multiple, multiple times and and then i stopped because i knew he wasnt going to talk to me and i didnt want to keep bothering him. And i knew he was struggling and all that. So again, its like trying to be sensitive and, know when to ask, when to ask. So. Gosh, but savannah with a sister so savannah, savannah was going to be a mother, right . She, she, her sister was active. Facebook too. And her sister was very outspoken. Not that thats bad, but she was just she was interesting and she would never talk to me either. But i had her, you know, her memories that i could draw from and and i that she just adored her sister. I mean, she really looked up to her and savannah had worked really hard. Shed gotten her High School Degree and then she got her certified nursing assistant degree and she was working at an assisted living facility. And sometimes shed do double shifts, though she was pregnant and, you know, she was always looking for ways to make more money for the baby that was that was her ambition. And she also was interested in becoming a nurse. And that was that was on the horizon for her. And she into nursing school. So i just really i that about her. I also admired her. She was very goofy and and selfdoubt placating like even though she would do these glam poses all the time, then shed do really goofy selfies, like with by herself or put, you know, clown filters on her face so and so, even though, you know, so she just had this brightness about her yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah. And that comes across in your writing even just the way she sort of cares for her siblings and her family and. Yeah, you know, the way she moves her hair and, you know, all of that is in these details, which is pretty incredible. I know that you also had a chance to to meet her parents and. There was like a surprise in meeting. Do you want to do you feel comfortable talking about that at all or. I dont know. If you give away too much. Yeah i dont know if you want to give away. I talked about or read about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe you could tell us bit about what happened with like what did you eventually i guess i dont want to give away too much, but like why did you eventually how did i learn about the what happened . The crime . I guess not the actual like that. You dont have talk about the details of the crime, but like what was the problem here with this investigation . You mentioned some people, some neighbors, but can you tell us a little bit about what. Yeah, what went wrong . Do you want me to say to answer like what ended up happening in terms of. Well, there were some fate or i mean, we know she gets murdered. Yeah, but people who you mentioned people who are i guess ultimately, arrested and whats whats that about what goes on there. Yeah. Without telling too much about it or. Why i guess. Why, why what . Why that happen. Beats me. Yeah. I will never be able to answer question. Yeah. These were two individuals who were very disturbed and been throughout their entire lives they one was 32. William and the other woman cruz was 36 years old and since she was 14, when she had been multiple relationships, had children and then would flee whenever things got real for her i mean she ended up fleeing to australia and an australian guy when she was already married to someone. So she was obviously very she was very bright which is but very a damaged person and, and william will he was sort of this working guy and he fancies himself as very charming and handsome and hed had hed been married before and. He had had an arrest at one point for felony child for hurting his. So and the other thing about the of them they were both very very hyper conservative and they didnt like native americans they were very vocal about that you know not him not embarrassed, not and and so in their public statements you know they didnt try hide anything. Yeah so that you know it all very just unbelievable what happened i mean i still none of us who. Yeah. Who covered this really what happened and why this woman snapped and killed savannah because thats basically what happened. Mm hmm. Out of this case. I know there is. Its very dark, and its hard to read these parts, right . Its hard even more, im sure, to report these parts. But there are there are changes over the years that begin to happen. And im wondering if you could tell us a little bit about savannahs impact on. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. The one thing that came out this that was actually really positive was when savannah disappeared and was found and then found murdered. Heidi, was the democratic senator for north dakota then and and this was a very big issue for her missing and murdered Indigenous Women had had very good relationships with several tribes in north dakota. And so she just immediately started sponsoring legislation in in savannahs honor. Its called savannahs act, and it did eventually pass. And it requires the federal to actually keep track these cases now and to make report to Congress Every year and also to make it easier for tribes, which had a very tough accessing these federal databases where they can learn about predators and and and so the whole idea is to bring, you know, so that tribes have equal weight, you know, in knowing about these crimes that theyre involved and, that, you know, theyre considered because havent been at all. Yeah. So that passed finally and also another act passed does that does it give you i know when you were on the panel the weekend, for example, there are questions like dna evidence and police. And i appreciated that you brought up the structural like theres other things that need to change. And im wondering, what are those things . Yeah. In your as youve learned and youve gone on this process and how are you sort of looking toward the future . Does it still look like theres a lot to be done . I just think there has to be more. Theres a an act called the Family Violence and Prevention Services act. And that is still in limbo right now. I mean, they have revote for it every few years. And that act provides a lot of funding for housing, education, counseling for tribes and the fact they they have to kind of. Wait for it to come all the time and that its not a given really tough because it doesnt allow them to build an infrastructure to care for people and to like for example hire more tribal. Beef up their court, tribal systems. So theres that and and that starting to get some attention which is which is good yeah but you know some of it is just resources is really just throwing resources into the this and that have never been and also involving native american and survivors in making policy they have been left out completely left out of any discussions about what they need. You know, what they would like, what they and this this other act, the not invisible act actually creates a commission and. Many of the people on that commission are native american and are required to be survivors. So so thats positive. And you in your book on, another woman that youve reported on can you tell us about your choice to end there and why and what that story with you know, thats a really good question. You know, i i think theres always this idea that. Well, there there are solutions being being proposed out there now. And people know about it. So its all going to be good. Right. And its going to change really quickly. And this just wont happen anymore. And and so i ended the book writing about this one young woman up in Northern California who disappeared and and i just wanted to leave that with people its like no one knows where she is. Yeah and they still dont today. Mm. And theyre still looking for her. Yeah. So and again i appreciate that as a structural choice because its not leaving us feeling like oh well we gone through five years and now things getting better. Yeah, certainly this is still, this is something that needs to be on people radars where, how can people can read your book to learn more about these issues where other places you know that they could reach out to to learn and you know, find theres an important. Yeah, yeah well theres an excellent media outlet called, Indian Country today that has been around for a really long time. And i made friends. A couple of the reporters there when i was reporting and so that certainly know reading native media is important and thats starting to happen and more like high country news, they have a whole Indigenous Affairs sort focus now which never happened before. And greste, i know, is doing that too. So just getting, getting that in there is really good and then as far as organizations there are, the organization that i focus on in the book, its called the national Indigenous Womens Resource Center and theyve been around, like i said, for a very long time theyve lobbied congress. Theyve walk the halls. They, you know, theyve tried to get things done. I mean, they helped get the violence against act passed with the tribal provision, which was a landmark thing a few years ago. So theyre really theyre really fantastic. You really want to dive into this, but you know, there are other organizations and in minnesota there is Sexual Assault coalition thats been around a long time and theyve done a lot of research, published lot of reports about women being trafficked so. And then i wanted actually, i realized that we should work in some time for any questions i can ask questions all day. But if anybody in the audience has any questions, i know you probably the book just came out. I just got my copy in the mail yesterday so i know not everybody read it, but i dont. I wonder if anybody might have any questions for mona or about the reporting or about the issues. That. Yeah, well, im interested in how when youre writing about something that so and so, so troubling how do you how do you make space for that as as project and then step from it and, and and so that you you can still report on it objectively and and with a clear head because feels like it would be so okay. Oh it is. I think youre does that make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Do you in a personal sense like dealing with this, you know, really awful material day in and day out, sort of how i with that during a pandemic. Yes to to write about it and and and keep it very i mean youre writing about it in a way that is making it really clear to us as a story. But i would imagine that it affects on a personal level and how do you separate that or keep yourself kind of in a yeah, yeah, its up and down. Yeah, very up and down. I mean there were times when i felt like i was on a mission and was just like, im writing and just, you know, i didnt have any emotional, like, feelings about it. And there were other times where i started crying like in the middle of it. And then i would take a break, i would go for a hike, id get outdoors. My favorite is being outdoors, and that always restores me. I just or id call someone. So i try to make sure i like i just working working working feverishly and not taking care of myself because it is really difficult and it does impact. I mean, i had nightmares a lot sometimes i still have nightmares because the material was so difficult and grizzly. So again, its sort of knowing when to step away like, okay, im, im about to burst into tears now. Maybe its time to get up and do something else. Maybe go cook or, you know, go talk to my husband or get a hug or. Yeah, yeah. So hope that answered your question. Okay. Yeah, thats a good question. The that you have to take care of yourself. You really do have to take care of yourself when youre dealing with this really tough subjects. Im because its it really, really takes a lot out of you and. Youre you dont even realize that i think either. And yeah. Yeah yeah. There. Im curious about the relationship with family, how you built trust with that you talked a little bit but did that relationship continue . It was a one off interview or. Were you able to continue on . And then whether you continue, stay in touch with them today and how they received the work youve done. Yeah, it was really tricky. I after i did like an interview, the entire family and they stayed in touch. I stayed in touch with them i would call them just say hi. When i was working on the book, they knew i was working on the book. I had a story that i had, you know, worked on for Pacific Standard and what really helped was once i started writing the book. They had read the story. They thought the story was amazing and they were really happy with it and, you know, there was like people did some cheesy and with the dad, the baby at one point and you know, and there was a lot of that sort of salacious stuff going like in tabloids about this case. And so i think they appreciated that. I didnt sensational lies it and that and i told them i, i, i want to know who your daughter was. I dont want talk to you about the crime i made very clear to them from the beginning. So i think they felt pretty safe with me and that i wasnt going to ambush them and and so we in touch for a long time. And then including during the pandemic. And i would email them, hi, how you doing, everybody . Okay and it was always very, very quick. It wasnt like these long conversations or, anything. It was just checking and really and finally, i did want to do another interview with number two and and she told me she just do it and and so i just that and i, i dont know if they know the book is out i havent told that its out. I, im trying not to bother them. I figure if they want to it, they will read it and they may not want to read it. So its really their choice, but i think they knew that. I, you know, had good intentions. So that that was everything. Yeah. Uh oh, oh, yeah. I mean, i can. Thank you. Hello. Congratulations. And thank you. Youve asked such great questions. Im curious. Your book as well. So have my family. Originally from california, but moved to new mexico years ago. And it was the first time i ever came front and with the indigenous of American History and just the landscape on its own, the rolling hills, you can really feel like you imagine what an ancestral indigenous would have culturally celebrated and the like beauty of a mountain or, like Different Things like that. And then you also see casinos. And so theres that component and then you sort of see sort of turbulent couples at the bus who somebody might flippantly say, oh, theyre drunk, you know. So theres all these different nuance says and new mexico is like historically very like lower income as a state and of troubled. So i can you know, i can only empathize emotionally with savannah but i feel ive seen women like her in new mexico. And so my question is, what do we expect of the government and or like americans or who interface or dont even know they interface with Indigenous Peoples globally, like what should be the consciousness awakened perspective . You know, given that weve seen uprisings for other identity groups. Exactly like what what how could we become more accountable or thoughtful about that . Well, i think the invisibility is a really big part of it. And why people just arent responsive. Like if see a native american, its like they dont even know its a native american. Someone is native american. And, you know, im really happy to see like really excellent shows like reservation dogs, which is set on a reservation, oklahoma. And its about these teenagers who are just like hilariously funny and they have a really hard life and and its written by its all written by native american and its a huge hit and it really represents this tribe. Well, its its their tribal people, right. Who are writing about it. So i think thats thats important. Think education is key. I mean, grew up in california and i learned i mean, i learned nothing about all the here. All i learned was about the missions that they were wonderful. Father sarah built the california, you know, coastline and using slave labor of native american eyes and you know, and that was celebrated i mean to find out that its just so not that true its its like youre you feel like your head is going to explode and i just think we dont learn native American History and i would really like to see that changed there are a lot of native american young adult authors and i met some at this booksellers event i went to in texas about two weeks ago and it so exciting because you know i didnt i didnt know these people because i dont have young kids anymore i dont have teenagers so it was really to see how how these authors are connecting with School Systems libraries to get their books out out there and read and how supportive these booksellers are and just hungry for these books its it was really uplifting especially being texas i have to say. So. So i think education is just its just got to change i mean, i just read that i dont know if it was wyoming or north dakota that one of those states they just came on, i know i think it was south, they completely gutted their native american curriculum. Hm. That they they just decided that they didnt need it. So just a constant thing. Yeah. Is there another question or. Well weve, weve gone for a but and i thank you so much for writing this book for, for sharing this story with us, for for bringing us into the life savannah bringing life to her on the pages. But also just helping us to understand these larger issues that clearly, you know, the education to happen. And unfortunately, were at a place where education is being challenged and and books are being challenged like this write, you know, so its so important have this work out there. So i really appreciate all the time and effort and dedication you put into this thank you thank you thank you so much. Okay. Thanks for joining us. Im here today with the authors Cameron Mcwhirter and Zusha Elinson sin to discuss their new on the air 15 rifle, the seemingly ubiquitous