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Our presenters this afternoon, our critic and journalist marine mo ryan, whos a contributing editor at, vanity fair and has written for entertainment weekly, the New York Times e, w salon, gq vulture. Prior to joining vanity, ryan worked as a television critic, variety and the Chicago Tribune. She has spent the last decade writing indepth pieces on matters of inclusion misconduct and abuse in hollywood and on efforts to make the industry. Her first book, burn it down power, complicity and a call for change in hollywood is a deeper exploration these issues. She lives in the chicago area. Mikki kendall, the author of the New York Times, best selling feminism. A recipient of Chicago Review of books award a best of the year and a best of the year at the bbc bustle and time. She is also the author of amazons abolitionists and activists a graphic illustrated by adam eco as a public speaker. She has appeared the bbc and pr the daily show, pbss good america, msnbc al jazeera, wbez and showtime. Her essays can be found at time. The New York Times, the guardian, the washington post. Essence vogue. The boston globe and nbc. Com. Think they will both be signing books after the event. You can purchase them outside of the black curtains over there and i hand it over to both of. Thank you. Who . Hi, everybody. Hi we sound fancy. I mean, i dont know what happened. Like. Like i made words, and then i people words and then, i dont know, stuff happened. I might have made trouble online. I think thats how we met. Yes. Oh, 100 . I was, you know, i dont know if anyone heard of the site called twitter. I wont call it the new name. Were not doing well. No, its still twitter. Hes still just high right now. You know, someone made a comment about twitter that i wrote a death of twitter piece six months ago, which is maybe slightly premature. It was some podcaster who said, you know, twitter, twitter was the moment when elites found out what people really thought of them and they lost their minds. And im like, yeah, oh no. So this is the thing, right . And i dont know. So i had this hashtag solidarity is for white women. And the premise this is relevant. So i was talking about racism and feminism and all of these things and then like eighties actresses, i had not seen in a million years, hopped twitter to argue with me, not all of them, but some of them had very strong feelings and on the one hand, disappointing. On the other hand, if youve ever been by their characters in a john hughes, i got to tell you, it was the moment like. 14 year old me got to tell Molly Ringwald to get off. And that was great. Right but it was this like weird moment culture where i was like, oh, themis people think we require you to listen to them or like. Who told you that . Like baby who lied to you . Were from chicago, right . Its not our thing. Really. We send governors to jail. We to start sending more mayors to jail. Im just going to put that out there. We arent even nice to the home team. You ever heard us yell about cops . What did you think this was . But so this. Why so back story we meet mode is not realize but mom was super supportive at a time when a lot people were telling me i was never going to succeed at anything. What . Yes, you were like. I was like, here is a rock star. I need to learn her. What . Like shes the best. Thats. Yeah, yeah. And so it was. It was what they needed in the moment. And ive always been like, oh, more, right. Its great. And so then theres like this follow on thing especially as the lead up to this book and also around several of your where people get very emotional because they think that the character on the screen or the person who made the thing they has to be a good person has to be a worthwhile person. We must be lying about how bad of a person they are and was just like i, i could not be writing what, she writes because i would blow up 17 jobs with the things would say to people 5 minutes into her mentions because like, i dont know how much you actually look at your mentions like you drop an article or you drop a piece and then theres like this like sound that happens on twitter, like the alarm going off in the depths of stand them right. Someone has criticized whedon. We at dawn and im like, this isnt even like new news. Are we are we doing this again . We did this on livejournal. How do you how thats know thats not a question of how really question for my long suffering spouse probably yours also also. Yeah i i fear what youre talking about time because you know we had lunch and you know ive been a critic and i, you know, i went to journalism school. I was, was kind of like mixing journalism with and doing both and i a lot of times youre doing your job right. You are interrupting peoples preferred narrative. You know, the studio puts out movie in their preferred narrative is that were doing a great thing. Its like, are you though . Its super, you know, i dont love that that are you know, like, you know what i mean . Like youre the one that stands there and they look at, you know, the but youre up. Youre a poor youre youre critic. How when are you bowing down . You know what, i mean, its just they get very you know, people are talking just to bring the strike right now. Its like, why are they why are the studios and the studio heads messing up so much . Why is their pr so trash and its like because theyre in a bubble and they dont listen. Theyre not in contact with the people actually making stuff. The weird thing about this book and the reception i have had those moments where a weird way sometimes like fans will kind of like ride for me like oh yeah, we want this bad person out of this, you know, dc realm. So i it happened a lot more i would say know when twitter was a young and you know like more like when you know there was that moment i feel like from what would you call like. 10 to 2015 where like it was happening where twitter was everybody, was on twitter. It seemed like everybody trying to understand how to make twitter happen for them. We just kind of seeing it on tick now were celebs are getting like tick tock account. And then they i dont know they do the dances, whatever. And youre like, okay, and hi, but so like there was this whole thing. You have all these celebs make time to hop into any criticism of them. They would search their names they would respond to you or me or anybody else. Yeah, i wrote about the guy who originally originally ran charmed like a woman created charmed, and then a man took it over. I wrote about his tenure at a later. One of the ncis shows, which was where. And by the way, thats not like he was not a wellknown dude but part of the i do what i do is because we we cant live in a mediocre ecosystem only the famous get called on their terrible like the average guy whos churning out a 22 episode. Cbs procedural and like ruining Work Experience for most people. That has to be talked about too. So one of the one of the original charmed actresses, i want to say, either online or dmd me like you never reached out for to me im like i did your clearly didnt pass that on so there a lot more resistance to the kind of stuff was saying especially around say know Sexual Violence on game of thrones recently you know like there was im some protected because im so i saw it it would happen and so in a way tried to stand up a bit more because im like okay if i have any of status within these spaces, im, ill, ill myself a target because you know, if im the for the Chicago Tribune or for i have a status and ill say it i dont give a like, you know, like i dont want to like if your priority to be friends with celebrities dont be a critic dont like i dont get it you know weirdly enough so just bring it to the book. It is scary. Thank you for saying that. I know. I mean. I dont know what its like for you. I, i do know that, like when you write peoples cages and they live in plush designer gucci cages where theyre all reinforcing for each other, theyre the greatest people in the world. I was terrified, this book coming out because, as you know, i, i go to very sacred in in los the tv show loss which by the way i wrote about a ton and so like im not im you the complicity word in that title its dont think im non complicit you dont i mean i think though i think the work you did i think the work a lot of people did during that sort of ferment of the height of twitter at the height of social media of a certain period it changed conversation to some degree. Yeah i think part of what changed the conversation is that we were talking about this over lunch. Theres like a point in the bubble where people think their their particular silo is all there is and then they could stay in those bubbles pre twitter, you could stay in those bubbles media. Now though reps want them to get online reps want them to be on tiktok, twitter or instagram or something. Its part the deal, right . Its the same for writers i promise you every writer has published anything in the last couple of years has gotten that email about how to use tiktok or how to get your social numbers going, how to act on social media. And so one of the reasons we were sort of shaking the and it wasnt even that this was the intent were having the conversations we were going have. Side note, jamie nesbit golden a. K. A the way the it is sitting over there hiding. Hi friend. She was with me in a lot of these conversations. Hi. Yeah. Yeah im going make you stand up later. Just. Yeah yeah. Why dont you stand up jamie . I know shes not any taller. Thats great. But one of the things that happened, we would be having a conversation sometimes were in those conversations, other people in those conversations and these celebs would be and it could be directors, it could be writers. I mean, when im saying slips, i dont just mean the actors. I mean, anybody in the hollywood who was remotely in them or wanted to be a name they would have such strong emotional reactions to the criticism. It wasnt like we were soandso is an absolute and we hate him and we hope he dies would be like, huh, i watch this show and the writing on it is really kind of sexist, especially for this one character. Or they relied on this old racial trope and then we have like this argument and one of the weirdest moments is to see some of the creators who dont do that leverage. Rodgers yes john rogers was like engage in actual discussion, but it would be like this weirdly refreshing thing where he would be like, oh, that we screw that up. Im to figure out where i went wrong. Wah, wah, wah and then youd have someone with a milder critique that was like, oh, i love the way that soandso wrote this. I cant believe attacking me. The woke mob is bringing me down. You dont know that you are. And i would be like, i dont if you know this, but if youre going to create for the public the public gets to criticize you. Oh, let me let me up a receipt here that ive never dropped in before. So were going to have fun with this and hope theres no libel suit. I was a big proponent, a tv show in its early days called the hundred, and its obscure like write about obscure stuff. But ill hopefully this relevant to anyone whos not seen everything the cw ever made, which is me. So its basically like, you know, kind of like a survival, like these kids, you know, theyre the last like sort of like earths been nuked. But were going to parachute these very. Cheekbone models dont always clean, always clean. The hair is. Just must just straight with thats the cw. They know their brand right. So i actually i thought was pretty interesting, you know, the way that they of like didnt shy away from some of the brutality and so forth and whatnot they up like real big time because i watch i literally actually watched the showrunner of the show do a victory lap, especially the queer press, but in the mainstream media, because they had notable bisexual, you know, lgbtq characters and especially this recurring role of this, you know, basically like a warrior queen lexa. So they had the lead of the show, you know flirt heavily and all the like. It was a very big shipping thing. It was like, you know, were it was just interesting, you know, they really embraced it and all that. Of course, kill lexa in the most stereotypical way. And i called the monitor whole bunch. And and during time, by the way, i didnt come out as bisexual till later, in part because of interactions like this. These fans kind of like gave me felt like a huge boost as a human being. They churned out fans just lost their minds and i understand why but they also churned out you know testimony journalism back stats like if you have narrative there are almost never any queer and if there are queer women, there are thin cisgender white women. If there are any queer women of any kind, they get killed off because the narrative isnt interested in them or theyre just like a tool because the we were in the age of there has to be a big death like in of thrones, there has to be a big death. So like who of our characters . Who do we kill . Its like were always landing on that square, huh . Interesting. So i wrote some things. Jason rothenberg was showrunner of that show. You know, i had interviewed him plenty of times. He knew where i lived, had my phone number. He had my email and they some of the things i write and this was the true in this case. Im to tell the studio or the show or the creative people messing up your reaction to this is not fans having a tantrum this not a two year old having a tantrum on the floor of target. This is a community that has been is one person called to me says to me we are nomads queer women and, femme and nonbinary people we are nomads. We go from show to show because we never have like ten shows. We have one. We were all going watch the l word. Were all going like even if it has, we dont have anywhere to go. So they had done this to this community. It was a bursting around a topic where the dam needed to burst because when discussions came around about queer characters in tv and film, often it was, you know, cisgender white men. Those characters in queer white men have made up to those upper tiers. Thats great. But like, were not having these conversations, so was educated. A lot of people were educated, was trying to help convey my and also education around these topics. So i did one big piece around that time and it was basically one of them was heres a laundry list you should not have engaged social media with fans promising thing a nice you know that this character would kind of there was implications character would make it that there would you know that there would be good things happening this that and the other and you should not have taken a victory lap the press you should have known your own history of your own medium. So that was i want to say the year. 2006. It was early 2016 because that was a year a lot of queer characters were being killed off on tv and it was like bad thing and women were being, you know, its like whole thing what characters we kill off like i guess it has to be a lady and i guess it to be that third tier black character that you never did a decent arc for. You know, like thats always what right. So i shared that piece in early 2016 and then this is this is three seed im going to drop two years later so they botched the entire handling of that people still watch the show like no hate if you it im not going to judge like what you like like two years later i had left that job for reasons and you know i had kept in touch with that community. I actually friends out of that whole experience because you get in the trenches with people in these kind of wars. If will two years later i wasnt working for that publication anymore and that that really that tribe of people talk about burning it down. They walked through a fire for their community and got a lot of abuse for educated a lot of people. I do think they changed the narrative around queer nonbinary representation. And i do think that. And so i tweeted the piece out again. I just said something like, you know, you know, recognizing, you know, the crew that that did all this work, just sharing this again two years later. Jason rothenberg deemed me. Well, hes smart. And so, so now and this is kind of like what were talking about with like when you have status and the position, youre in the bubble, but you get told youre in the bubble and some signal reaches you like is this someone not like me, i like this feeling like he he knew like the like the the whole rules are, you know, so i could have personally i were him spent that time educating myself and maybe doing some outreach with that community. I do a whole chapter my book, what is making amends look like i messed up everyone messes up what is real reparation of the Community Reparation to the community and amends and atonement in apologies how do you do stuff so he dms me something along lines and i had the screenshot shot i do i saved it i we all have that file of like oh heres some something i could drop sometime. Your story was trash then and its trash now. You didnt even bother to try to interview me or whatever. And im like, what . Im like, you you really you really had the energy to reach out to me two years after this controversy that you walked into, that you. So heres my thing and this is my cw rant buckle, right . I dont know how many of you remember upn, but when upn before cw and way upn got built was shows starring black and brown people, thats how cw comes to be it comes to be enough value for cw it all of it. But thing. And im going to bring up Sleepy Hollow now is that would have these beloved characters they have entire fan bases and i know showrunners would be like well we had idea but literally also know that there were people whose job is to monitor the fan chatter, that there are people internally who at how many fan fictions are written about specific characters, how much attention and energy fandom is putting into things. And its not just a nighttime show thing. Daytime soaps with sitcoms do, it the if anybody remembers when scandal first airs how scandal night would unite black twitter in discussion. There are all of these articles about the power of, black twitter and all of these things. So execs would then act like, well, we didnt pass dibley. No, fans love that character much. You you literally hire Market Research to keep track of which characters are being reacted to you literally have entire departments who reach out to those super fans and send them and merch and and so much so but even for things that you are not watching necessarily in attempt to get you to watch it right and i will fully disclose here im one of those people whos been on twitter since around 2009. Also her fault. I have a relatively large footprint now, around 160,000 followers, give or take a few thousand. I get those reach outs, right . I get emails or pr emails that sometimes im like, okay. Mm. Did you just send me something for show with. Absolutely no black people like one you dont even have like a token possibly could be black character, right . Your whole lineup is white and mostly men have you met me . Do you know how i will eat your soul. I also weirdly get pr for people who want me to write about Clothing Companies also only feature white people i dont know. And so if you can do all of that, you can avoid the pitfall you can use the magic in your hand, write these very expensive computers we all carry around in our pockets days to just google stereotypes tv theres websites devoted it you dont even have to do the research. Somebody did the Research Compiled the research say did it and named it and made it a website. And then every like what, two or three cw shows they go, what do you mean . People are offended . Who could have foreseen this . Oh, i dont know. Everyone that called this out in the previous 17 times, you know, like its my whole thing ive had reach out to me. So can i not . I cant kill queer. Im like heres what i would might heres were going to have a different question whos on whos whos in your cast . Who is it . Who are the characters . Your show . And if do who matters who matters to the narrative, you know, i mean like, you know, in breaking bad, you know, who matters its well, one of the i mean, one of my favorite things to point is that and i say this particularly about game of thrones. You can believe in dragons, but you cant believe in black people. You can believe in dragons and trolls and orcs and the dead walking, but you cant believe in fighting. You cant imagine world where theyre not raped. Apparently every sexual interaction possibly shown on the show except like one rape and then, of course, we had to kill that girl. And if thats a spoiler, im sorry, but im just going to tell you that like. Mm. And so you have this moment in terms of criticism and im having a moment sort of right now on twitter about coco gauff and like the reactions, her win by the audience where people are determined to misunderstand it. Im going talking about racism in, fandom and indian wells and youre like, these other people have good scores are not having the same conversation. I know where were going to go here, but then i realize that narrative thats been created is one of if you are present, that should be enough. This should you should have gratitude for that. If you want to be perceived as being part history and we think you were part of history because. Ove consumed was made during jim crow and is a remake of Something Else made jim crow we dont understand what were seeing right. Every time i had the game of thrones diversity divide, one of the things that was hilarious to me that people would say it wouldnt be historically for there to be more black people. But the dragons were historically accurate. I mean a woman who could turn herself into a ghost that was like all the time that happened right the disease that turned you the stone these were all believable things. Again there are giants and then as you start about historical accuracy the floor here you also start realize that there are people who do not realize they are looking at the trappings of trade and diversity because the brazier theyre standing around to warm hands that isnt there that that comes from further south the first diamonds where do you think the diamonds came from where do you think all of the things you think of being normal in medieval culture were coming from right the world survived i was the black plague because jewish communities, indigenous communities and other communities had hygiene standards that didnt make it everywhere. Right. And thats not like a historical fact im pulling from nowhere. This is a thing right. Epidemiologists will tell you this. Historians tell you this. I learned this in the eighth grade. And as youre having that back and forth. You start go, you dont feel with seeing women fight or with diversity or whatever because, youve never consumed any media might have challenged you, right . Whether talking about video games or, movies or tv or books, anything that disrupted your bubble you didnt like, and you were also the kind of person would go on to make things. I need you to know what youre making and what youre saying, and i dont know how to make you care. Yeah no, i have that thought many times mean you know ive been the first set that i walked on was the xfiles 30 years ago. And i guess this today, like the 30th anniversary of the xfiles existing or so. I mean, like ill fully also admit im part of the problem and this is something this is a conversation ive had with many people in the industry, which is i dont want to get live in the headspace of never giving anyone the benefit the doubt. Right. Thats a really dark place to live in your head. And believe me, hollywood is really good at creating that headspace is like i hate everyone, but so because after my book came out like some people are in my inbox like like what im like, well, heres thing i knew i to put stuff in my book like the scandals of last or the Sleepy Hollow or. Heres the unsexy thing that needs to happen. And not just in this Creative Industry, but were talking at lunch like media i mean, any any highly gay kept Creative Industry where paying your dues is code for were going to abuse the out of you you. I think the unsexy thing that has to happen. I never wanted to do a book that was just this is super depressing. Moving on no i wanted some solutions because it isnt rocket science, you know, it is it is doable. Know my husband works in a very different field where like i tell him, i come down the stairs, i tell him things that people have experienced to work. Hes like, before i finished that sentence, security would have been at my desk and i would have been escorted out the building and fired. Like its like he does not work in a woke industry at all. So the unsexy things that need to happen thats what i kind of tried to like weave and the last third of the book is there to be multiple complex mentoring and even overlapping systems accountability, support and resources because problems will happen. Human beings are flawed its happens there need to be multiple routes by which those problems are prevented on the end and thats the thing hollywood never wanted do lets just keep taking the same people throw off the same cliff that is called a Motion Picture running a show doing you know, being in charge of it. You end well. Hes creative. Hell figure. Will he figure it out . No, he will not. He will be an abusive piece of so like it. They dont want to invest even a dime at front end to make it make sure the machine has someone operating that machine which a studio or a soundstage or a show that knows theyre doing and can do it professionally and for the people it. I feel like the the its the strikes are not good theyre not fun for anyone but i think were we are in a great reckoning and that is partly. However whatever you ever thought about peoples incentivization to speak about industry abuse. There isnt any except frankly the one thing that gives me a shred of hope and i need is people do it for each other. A big story i did on a cbs who at one point at his height had three shows on the air. The combined budget was north of 250 million per year for those three shows. One of the issues with that show was that a a wonderful, talented member, the cast, her disability accommodations not respected in the people who came to me i never to that cast member most of the people who came to me and this is true of a lot of stories and i really do want to give you something helpful to think most of the people who come to me like, yeah, i mean, im going through hell, but other person is being put through an extra special, especially bad hell. And i want to like i cant like so what those silos youre talking about the silos function to keep people from thinking that anyone else wants to speak. But people are finding that in whether its on the picket line in a media piece, in a book with the hashtag theyre finding each other in the the billionaires dont like overall well and im going to have to open up for questions in one sec. But i just want to say this part of the solution is for studios to honor the same eeoc rules they have to follow for the rest their administrative staff. This is a thing every time i write about the industry, im like, do laws . Am i in reality . Like hollywood just violates all of them all the time. Oh, yeah. And like they create specific exempt positions in order be able to do it. Thats why hollywood runs on pays and interns and whatever because legally interns dont have any right. Right child stars. Right. Were just now hitting the point where the mom influencers slash kid reaction video kids are to grow up the blogger kids hitting adulthood and youre in the only state currently in the union where some of their earnings are protected, right . Thats like illinois nowhere else because the comstock laws california only apply to kids. Theres some discussion to be had about many of them are really not getting that much of their money. But now starting to see the oldest those early like mom fluence her kids go yeah so you loved my videos, my reactions or whatever. And parents want a house and a boat and they to trips and blah, blah, blah. And i afford college or to eat right . I cant afford anything and because i was made famous so young i also cant really get a job, right . A lot of stars we saw this weirdly enough, not the child star, but with the guy who played sandras on the cosby show. Some, yes. Geoffrey owens. He was working at trader joes and people were sort of clowning him for having to work at trader joes. And im like, so like that show ended a while ago and i dont remember seeing him doing a lot serial acting. Ive seen him do a lot of guest spots and like Health Insurance is a thing that is necessary. And so were talking about an industry that it up so that the people who create the things that we enjoy are also in worst position to fight back wherever. Absolutely. I mean thats i, i was i wrote this book from a place of, you know, kate, bush has, a song called love and anger. And i think those are thats my whole jam. Like, thats my deal. I love the people who really do have visions and want to share them. And theres so much the output that i love, but im absolutely furious. You know, it just started to feel to me in the last few years it was like, well, we fixed. We had a people in 2020 felt bad about racism so thats fixed them like did it with hollywood never was interested fixing that. And so i wast li, no man, its not fixed at all. Not its like its just morphing into different things. And there are people taking steps to make it different. But the more juice in, power and money in resources and, and, you know, sort of like power the people have, the less they prevented from abusing things. Okay, wait. So like, we dont just do this thing where you have a chance for questions, there is a microphone right there. If would like to ask us a question, walk up to the microphone so people can hear you ask your question. How many of them well get to. I can, i guarantee. But if you have one, now is the time to move the mic. Go on, go on. Be shy. Go, go, go i have faith in you. If you could make it, i apologize not having seen the 100. But youre pulling on that. Reminding me of orphan black. Im very familiar. Okay. Yes. So delphine gets shot. Shes, of course, a queer woman. And you know, the consumer dolphin. And they gave her kosher for a while, and nobody like kosher. But it also seemed like producers were like, were not sure shes going to come back. And by the way, swallow she back. But it was also interesting because the actress was also shooting another tv show like halfway around the world as well. And i realize im giving an example, a canadian and british example. Its not a hollywood example. Its all the same. Its the same. But it does point out how rare canadas even wider is. The thing for maple sirup and i multiple on multiple occasions people canadian men have said either to me or to colleagues theres couldnt be racist because im only america has that bad racism stuff dont have it up here in canada and im like that is news your indigenous populations indigenous you know that they did more to the chinese they lock people up what more to yeah theres a few of those things. Yeah and like this is the thing. I made the call in the bbc for this as well. Theres been an ongoing sort of quasi between black american actors and sometimes british actors over the perception. Black american actors have so much more in american actors being like, we actually you just feel like we do because we fought all this time for this sliver of the pie and, you know, black, black british actors are saying, well, we dont even have a sliver of the pie. We get to appear occasionally in very special episodes and then be browned off. And i think this the same thing when were talking about queer characters. Yeah, right. Whether were talking about the u. K. , we can pick u. K. , france the u. S. , whatever theyre all kind of doing the same thing, all doing the exact same tune. They just go, oh, no, better than over there. And heres the the really the bigger picture. I kind of m at the point where im sick of taking individual showrunners, although i have a story coming out in two weeks, ill take on one. And those the whole thing. But no its like i think the i think that you raise these good points as do you. But like, okay, how about have a queer black woman make a show because i feel like shes not going to mess this up, you know, like it like the thing is what i remember bring in in a reference that i think might be left field but it actually kind of proves my point lucasfilm star wars Everybody Loves a speeder bike and walks whatever they they rolled up and more like were going to make a ton of tv shows. Okay, cool. Whos making them . And so you theres Chris Christian newman, i think she came up with this. You know, phrase that i love called blast representation. And shes an academic and scholar and critic. And look, her name and my role was in the ip chapter. I cant remember her last name correctly. I think its kristin newman, but like, okay, so if you look at a lucasfilm project they whether a film or tv show, theyre cast diversely like i want those actors to get that check. Woo get it, get the check. Who is writing the who has control of the narrative and im talking about whether its the executive overseeing the film or its the showrunner. The showrunners basically are like dave filoni or favreau, and they write every episode of a season or know that different people are involved at different levels, but the point i was to make in that chapter about ip, whatever suppose it inclusion strides the industry made is like crushing it like a bug because its like we have this precious of an ip. We cant just give it to anyone i mean, except if its lord of the rings, then we can give it to people without any imdb credits. Okay, sure. I mean. Well, why not . Its the perfect trap, right . Its the perfect loop. We cant let just anyone work on it. Theyre not experienced. But if you never get a chance to work on it and move up, then youre never going to be experienced. Because, like i personally and like therell be people hear about this on twitter, but i could watch nothing. Joss whedon makes ever again and die a happy woman. I could he could be sent to the moon and i would i would miss nothing. Oh, wait, we have one more question. Hold on. Im sorry. I didnt mean to, but. No, no, its fine. Thank you both for for your remarks. My question is, so you talk about these tv shows and where in movies in which queer characters, black characters are killed. And yet these are the these characters are the most popular in the fan base . Theyre the reason that people are watching the show. And you would think that in you know all of our you know of capitalism but like in a capitalist society where you want to viewership and increase profitability, you would want to be centering, you know, these stories that are the reason people are watching the show and like i dont know about, you know, the 100 or Sleepy Hollow specific glee, but like a lot of the time when these characters are killed off or written out of the show, like everyone loses interest and the show is canceled like a couple of seasons later. So im just wondering Sleepy Hollow. Like, why . Why is this happening . Like, shouldnt these studios and executives be in maximizing profits, you think . I mean, you also need to get tax off. Thats why weve seen so many projects shelved. Right. Wrights in the can fully fully done and now were never releasing it. Well, i mean, i think take your point, like franklin leonard, the founder of the blacklist, is like mckinsey company. Its not like, you know, country granola crowd. Theyre like, youre leaving 50 billion a year on the table just from consumers alone world. I dont know if thats nationally or worldwide. Its absolutely youre absolutely right. And the thing is, thats my sleep. One of my Sleepy Hollow rants that i did online mean part of the reason i wrote that chapter because i see like if you take nothing away from the rest of the book read that chapter, even if youve never heard of the show because it just typifies so much of what went. And i did a thread about sleep halloween when Nicole Beharie began to speak what had happened to her very tactful terms because you knew she knew what limits were on, what she could actually say. Right i did a thread and i was like, i watched them destroy this show in this character in real time and destroy the black female fandom of the show and. It was terrible. And like the outpouring of pain to that this four years after the show had been canceled and one of my one of my deals with sleepy is that show would still be on the air would be another supernatural you have you have a duo that has chemistry to solve like weird stuff that happens in small towns you could make 1,000,000,000 off this property too you could still be on. Well im just going to say this and i think we got to wrap it up is basically one of the things people have to remember is that the same bias that makes people not want to hire that makes people not want to see on screen right. You can watch this play out at any point in any industry. There comes a point. I call it the template, the Tipping Point of of of jealousy, where that success, that popularity starts to freak a certain type white creator out because they know that if really had to compete in a universe where these shows were allowed to prosper with people were moving up right you this in Book Publishing in particular a lot now as more and im going to blaming kay jamison shes a friend of mine another one i mean as she after she won those three hugos sci fi lost its mind she won that third hugo and white men and sci fi were like black women are getting all the opportunities. They wont let us write no one, no one stopping you from writing. No one stopping you from publishing. People just start buying the same book, right . People just arent going to keep watching the same show. So we have to apparently it up and go sign some books. No i just want to. I absolutely agree with what you said and what i am hoping im just going to wrap up with this thought after the strike. What i do not want to see in the industry is something heard and people say. That, oh, they are taking our jobs i mean, the problem the problem with the industry is that more shows are being made, but fewer episodes, tv are being made, fewer films are being made, theyre tent poles. There is a narrowing of opportunity that is absolutely real. But lets keep i actually i legit had this conversation with someone the other day lets keep our eyes on you know little Sinead Oconnor shout out the real enemy. The studios pitting people against each other in a race to the bottom the end, while each other themselves hundreds of millions of dollars at the top. I dont dont the crabs in the barrel dont attack each other support each

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