Mobile video app, and online at cspan. Org. A discussion on how to disperse address discrimination in the classroom. People of the office of civil rights. We hear from assistant education secretary for civilrights Catherine Lehman with the center of American Progress. I am delighted to be in conversation with the secretary of civil rights, Catherine Lehman. Welcome back. To start us off, tell us what the office of civil rights do at the department of education. If you justice give you justice. They emphasize vigorous i emphasize i emphasize vigorous. We were created by congress after the 1954 Civil Rights Act was passed in congress created our office to enforce that short proper promise that no person shall experiences formation on the basis of race and National Origin in public foundations and since that time, congress has added additional jurisdiction basis on our charge. We have disability this cremation and age discrimination, are big topics. We have 12 offices around the country and 600 staff dedicated to enforcing federal laws and our mission, our charge is to investigate whenever we have information that the law has been violated is a frequent occurrence for us. I can hear you but i think the rest could not. [laughter] we take seriously that no person should experience discrimination and we try to move as quickly as we can and we try to use all the tools we have, that means guidance to share information about what that is and how we enforce it. We investigate schools and we are engaged in active free like regulating at the moment which is a new muscle for us. That is iraq mission that is our broad mission. Justice and a lot of justice. This is not your first time in this role. You are the assistant secretary for civilrights with the Obama Administration. I come back . Why come back . I didnt want to leave. [laughter] the career staff gave me repeated reminders that it would be unseemly for security to walk me out. It was the last day and i was devastated to leave and i was it was incredibly hard to be away from the office from the time i was away, i am a lifelong civilrights lawyer. You didnt say that but i will say myself. I spent 17 years suing government before coming to government. When i came i saw how much change we can make and how quickly and there is no place else in the country where i can do as much good as i can at the office of civil rights and i am so desperate to be back. I would be devastated when i have to leave again and i hoping that is 5. 5 years. Putting the stem of the office, the work that we see is extraordinary and the ability to make change for millions of people that is consistent with our countrys highest at on what civil rights should mean for students, there is no other way to have that kind of reach and to make that difference and that gets me up in the morning. We are happy you did. There is a lot of conversation right now around the words diversity, equity, and inclusion. I asked the is it that assistant secretary for civilrights, what do those words mean to you . They mean to me with the president said, the president issued a executive order about diversity, equity and inclusion access. For us as a country, i think they need to meet each of us is respected for who we are for all the ways we show up at the world in the world and from a, we dont experience harm on the basis of those identity characteristics and they should be protected over decades so my my job is to ensure externally, in schools, students are able to focus on reading and writing and arithmetic and not on discrimination based on an assumption or stereotype or actuality of their identity and that is important and we try to live that in our own practice in our internal work but i dont have internal employment respond response abilities like other agencies do. What do those words need to you as a parent . I have two kids, one is in college and the other is in high school and i and fears about making sure i am fierce about making sure my kids have every opportunity that we save our kids should have. That we say our kids should have. For the 49 million k12 students and college students, each of them we need to treat every student in schools that the student is someone pressure someones precious baby. Students should be able to fulfill their dreams and complete their aspirations. We need to make sure our schools are designed to offer that and be that. I want to talk to you about students the recent Supreme Court opinions so that opinion drastically altered, upended 40 years of precedent for how colleges and universities can continue race can consideration for any factors on the admission process. What does that mean for you and what is the education opportunity mean for america . And means a very changed practice for me. It means a very changed practice for me and we have received complaints and responses to the courts decision challenging, asking us to examine those references in my position so it will be a new day for us in how we enforce and what we will do. You mentioned it. It upended 45 years of practice in school. I mentioned there are roughly 6000 colleges and universities and some 200 of them have been engaging in some form of use of race in admissions practices. That number among others will likely need to reconsider how they consider race, if they consider race, when engaging their admissions practices. What i think it means for us as a country, to see that kind of seachange and ate the law and seachange in our shared understanding of what is an available tool is an opportunity, welcomed or not, is an arm opportunity to reconsider what and how we do the work to admit, retain, support, and graduate diverse classes. Nothing in the Supreme Courts decision challenges the ability to engage in those practices. My hope is that colleges and universities that were interested to ensure they educate richly diverse classes persists and a commitment to educate richly diverse classes. Some colleges that were committed should start to become committed also. It is time for us to think about how we do the work well and what new opportunities are available to us now that maybe was a crutch that we have been using is no longer available to us. What will be there and said and if anyone doesnt know, the president promised and we delivered, the department of education and department of justice to, within 45 days of the court decision, issue a set of resources that describe what the law is and what is still available. We are clear, the court did not take away the ability to seek a diverse class, to educate a diverse class. The court did not speak to more than it did in the cover and the university of North Carolinas admissions process. That leads a wide variety of available options still to make sure you are educating diverse classes of students and we not only bring them but keep them and graduate them and prepare them and they are our future. We were specific about tools. They include recruitment strategy, they include work on the belonging, making sure students feel like campuses are for them. And offer up a wide open field if the coalition is open and willing. I found it interesting that you focused on belonging. Why is that important and for colleges and universities to not only focus on admissions and a diverse campus, but also retaining one. Why is that so important . If we do not retain people, at the very core, that is an important element for us. Apart from that, in my work to enforce that no person will experience discrimination, what i see are the ugliest acts of harassment. A hostile environment that prevents a student from being able to benefit from education, being able to focus on math, physics, whatever the subject is. We will not develop the leaders we need in our society if we do not nurture them and make sure they can complete their educational journey. Complaints and specific instances of discrimination, your Office Reviews them can you talk about some rights and violations in the abstract russian mark what is . What is an example of that . Our fiscal year goes october to september and we saw the highest number of complaints that weve ever seen in the history of the office of civil rights. And that is not good news. On the one hand, i think i am pleased that people believe government will be different, please people are coming to us and expecting redress because that is our job. On the other hand, the complexity and the harms we see, the complaints are astonishing. And some of them are the old style discrimination, you know it is going to happen and some are new and astonishing that you did not know somebody could do that we hear about. Covid has created a different overlay for different harms that might get visited on students. That is painful to see. My staff are terrific. We are equal to the task although it is difficult to deliver without that degree of complaint coming in. We have 18 fewer staff investigating than the last time we had the next highest complete volume which is the last time i was here. At the end of fiscal year 16 we had 18 more staff, so it is a hard time to do the work. Let me tell you the cases we resolved and the justice that we did. I talked about harassment, we resolve the case in a School District in iowa where a student was subjected to a hostile environment that is school did not respond to. To really contextualize it 16 of the students were black so it is an isolated experience. After the George Floyd Murder white student knelt on a gatorade bottle and looked at this black student and said, i cant breathe as a way of harassing the student. And the principal didnt view that as racial harassment, which it was, let me just say, you know, the but the principal didnt recognize that as rising to the level of, of race harassment even though it was also in the context of the student being called a Cotton Picker called a monkey. Had students saying the the kkk is the Cool Kids Club at the school is over and over and over. Really ugly harassment is a middle school student. He was reduced to tears in class. And that is not common among middle school boys and he was reduced to tears because he was watching a docentary about and thinking about his own experience in school and receiving inconsistent and insufficient response from the School District. And thats not how a child should have to learn. Thats not what we expect when, when we send our kids to school. And by the way, just as a reminder, school is compulsory in, in k 12. So, you know, this child was required to be in School Every Day and the, and the learning environment for the student was so ugly about who he is and he and his mom were complaining to the School District and the administrators who were, whose job it is to support him were turning away and saying its not that bad. Its not that it doesnt matter. And it doesnt matter. The federal government now says it matters. They are subject to federal monitoring and that kid is ok. Now and theyre paying for counseling. So, you know, ii i feel good about what were doing for him, but appalled that it took federal intervention and it took a little White Knuckle negotiating to, to get this district to realize that they actually needed to, to change their practices. Thats very far from isolated. And another recent resolution was, this is in an arizona School District where a, a black mother came to us and complained that her black daughter repeatedly had white teachers touching her hair and she would ask them not to touch her hair and they kept doing it. And that when we looked in the files, we found the teachers saying, oh, you know, she needs somebody to tell her that shes beautiful. And so im doing this and she should be grateful. And i was like, oh, theres more to the story than i expected when, when we first got that in the complaint. But that, you know, that was the look of the complaint and we confirmed that that had happened and needed to change. But we also in the course of the investigation found out about rampant race harassment across racial identities, you know, ugly, anti semitic slant, slurs and People Holding up their eyes for to asian students and just, you know, pick your category, just rampant race harassment that was taking place the district without district response. And you know, im grateful that we found out but it wasnt what this mom happened to know about. And so, you know, hadnt, hadnt told us about it. And so we needed a, a much more systemic resolution than we might have thought going in, to, to try to ensure that the district could make sure that students would be safe. And again, theyre subject to federal monitoring. You know, we, we are there to make sure that that kids are ok. And im, im glad we could do it. But it, but when we think about school, i know yesterday was the first day of school in area School Districts here. And you know, we think about sending our kids to school, they have a new backpack and, you know, maybe have a new lunch box. You think about, i hope you like your teacher. You know, i would like you to step straight in class. We dont thinking necessarily that, that we have to say i, i wanna steal you against the things somebody might call you the things someone might say to you in school. Its not, thats not the image of what school should be and its not what Congress Promises your school wont be. And so im, im very grateful that we can be there when that happens. And i am enormously distressed by the routine now with which we are seeing that kind of harassment in school and and insufficient School Response and, and ill just say more. You didnt ask this, but ill just say more in this, in this time where, you know, theres, theres a lot of polarization about schools in particular. And a lot of polarization in, in our, our Public Discourse about, you know, how thick skinned people should be or, you know what we, what we should be expecting in school. And i think in those conversations, we dont talk enough, we dont think enough about what were asking our babies to hold and the toll it takes on them to, to have to navigate that while trying to write an essay, you know, while trying to learn history and, and that it makes me sick as a mom, it makes me sick as the chief civil rights enforcer in the nations schools and, and it makes me worry about our democracy. So this conversation hits close to home for me because my son just started first grade yesterday. And you know, i, i do worry about, you know, some of those things. So how do we, how do we address the routine . How do we, you know, how do we fix that and ensure that my son, other kids, you know, when theyre going back to school dont have to shoulder so much, you know, in the classroom and you know, can have environments that theyre forced to be in. You mentioned, they are compulsory but also respectful, safe, inclusive environments as well. Well, 19,000 of us have come to the office for civil rights. So, you know, thank you for that. And you know, thats certainly, thats one path. I think we, we also, were issuing a lot of resources to try to share what the law is and, and those are things that people can use themselves when advocating with the teacher, with the School District, with the school board, you know, with the, with the university that, that those are materials that people can have at the ready. And i will say certainly in my time when i in the bad years, when i couldnt be at the office for civil rights and my, my kids were in school and i did sometimes take a Dear Colleague letter and say i signed it. I just wanna make sure you saw it. This is actually what the law is. You know, just to make sure that, that my kids schools among other kids schools do fully comply. I also hope that we are active participants in our kids schooling. And i, i say our kids schooling, meaning that very broadly, if you dont have a kid in school, i hope youre volunteering in a school if you do have a kid in school, i hope youre volunteering in the school. You know, that, that we can be active participants in our School Communities and to and work to ensure that they are the communities that we say they will be right. And, and often when, when i in my office see discrimination, its not because an educator wanted to hurt a child. It was because somebody didnt know what the law was and didnt, didnt know how they were supposed to respond. And so lets help them to know and to make sure that, that we, we are fully responsive to our whole School Communities. What do you think is the biggest threat to civil rights and education right now . Well, im not gonna pick one, but the, the reality is Thomas Jefferson is famous for having said that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. And the, the reality is that we have to always be vigilant about civil rights anywhere in civil rights and schools in particular, every, every school year is a new opportunity to discriminate. And so we are always having to remind, always having to, to start again and to, to work on the class in front of us today to, to make sure that, that it is a safe and appropriate and lawful nondiscriminatory space. So one challenge is, its still a challenge, right . You know, that, that, that we, we have now six decades of promises about who we will be as a country and, and what, what the federal backstop against harm will be and weve never achieved that. So, so its, you know, that, that were, that were always working toward it is an, is an ongoing and i think very big challenge. The other very big challenges are that no child has a minute to waste of learning so nobody can withstand another day where their rights arent, arent met at school and theres no time so that the urgency is, is intense and the the new varieties of ways that we find challenge, you know, we, we are, we are in a pandemic still, you know, we are coming, we are coming through a change of that was unimaginable to us before five years ago. And, and we are living through that time, all of us struggling through that. And our and our kids are shaped by it. Their educators are shaped by it, their communities are shaped by it. So, you know, that is an an ongoing challenge and that the ways that we show up the the different needs that kids, kids bring, you know, theyre very different. I mean, each, each of us is an individual, right . And its one, its a, its among the Amazing Things of the han condition. And it is also hard every day to make sure that that every minute of, of every instructional day, we are satisfying all the needs of the kids thats an enormous challenge. So you talked about how like were fighting for something that like we havent achieved yet. And i actually just want to read something from the guidance because i loved it. I thought it was well said, where you say weve seen that there are no simple answers for unwinding the entrenched roots and sprawling branches of segregation and discrimination. I guess my question is, you know, why, why should we not give into temptation . You know, that there arent any easy fixes when it comes to discrimination . Why should colleges, universities and schools and really all of us still remain committed and vigilant like you said, to fixing something that we, we havent fixed yet and may never fix. Were gonna fix it, were gonna fix it. Forgive me for being a the alternative is worse that, that if, if we are not vigilant, if we are not protective, then i mean, i think we are at the abyss, right . So, so the alternative is worse and i let me that, i mean, to say, you know, i will out myself again, i keep out of myself on things but that, but , you know, i am a civil rights lawyer which means im an internal optimist and, and you know, you dont, you dont keep pushing the, the rock up the hill unless you think you might, you might actually get it up there some time. So, you know, you take what i say with a grain of salt. But, but my mother was 10 years old, the year that brown versus board of education was decided. And she attended schools in racially segregated schools in richmond, virginia. Before and after brown, the decision never impacted the circstances of her schooling. And you know that that is a history. I hope we all know that that virginia wasnt eager to, to change its practices so that it offered integrated schooling for kids. And, and my mother growing up couldnt try a hat on in the department store. And she rode the back of the bus by law and my, my father is white. My mothers black, they couldnt marry in my mothers home state of virginia because loving versus virginia hadnt been decided yet. And they, they married in my great aunts backyard in washington dc because that was lawful for them here and they, they honeymooned in National Parks because it was lawful for them to be together in National Parks and not many other places. That is not our history as my mothers life. And, and when my mother raised me and my brother, she promised us we could be anybody we wanted to be. And she knew that wasnt true, but that was a promise because it was her aspiration. And certainly my Life Experience was dramatically more open than hers had been. I didnt, i didnt attend racially segregated schools. Although in california where i grew up, the schools i attended were desegregated by court order. So, you know, do it that way you will. But, but that, you know, they werent re segregated schools. I had substantially more opportunity available to me than my mother did. Affirmative action was alive and well, when i was applying to college and into law school, and i was able to, to go to places that were the places that i dreamed about. And as i raised my children, i raised my children with broader and more wide open expectations, even though my mother promised to me and hoped that she would be able to deliver, even though she didnt have a reason to expect it. So, so why do we do the work . Even though we havent actually lived our aspirations yet, we do it because we hope we do it because we want to do it because we believe that things will be better for those who come after us and, and we do it because when we dont, when we are not vigilant about it, we are so circscribed, we lose so much in our rights and that is so dangerous for us. So, so for me, you do it because, because there is no other alternative. So what, whats next for the office of civil rights . You know, at least as far as affirmative action, you know, decision goes, release some guidance and then also saw like most recent guidance released last week. Whats next as far as you know, keeping this moment going and making sure that everyone has the resources that they need to live in compliance, but also keep pushing forward for more inclusive campuses and schools. So say several things. One, i, i like your point about moment that when i, when i came to the office for civil rights in 2013, the most guidance wed ever issued in a single year was four. And this last year we issued 77 guidance documents. And this year weve issued nine on race and shared ancestry, National Origin alone. And many more that in the total years of the Obama Administration, we issued 38 resource docents. So, you know, i think its important to speak to what rights might be and, and help in give equip School Communities to, to be able to fulfill the law. So i think thats that, you know, whats next is there will be more of that and and more enforcement and, and more work. But that the second docent, the docent just from last friday that you mentioned, i, i wanna speak to you too because it said its a companion of a sort to the, to the response to the students prepare admissions decision that, that analyze what, whats available, whats left the, the resource last week is, is instructive for School Communities about how they can still offer racially inclusive programming and, and what is available and and theres, theres so much public conversation now about whether i activities are lawful, and, and whether they are even good policy goals, you know, whether they, they should be taking place in schools and, and i really want School Communities to hear from me and emphatic. Federal law does not categorically bar those kinds of activities and there are circstances under which its actually required and, and i will say is not my opinion. That is what the law is, but, but b is, is what the law. So, so just to say that, you know, there, there was a lot of rhetoric in the last administration, theres a lot of rhetoric now among people who are not President Biden about whether dei activities, you know, should be something that we dont engage in. But, but ive had occasion to canvass ocrs and the office of civil rights resolution agreements in the trump years and in, in, in the, in the obama years. And, and now, i mean, now i get to see them because im signing them. But, but, you know, im looking at what the office has done consistently over time. And in the trump years, we routinely were requiring School Districts to engage in implicit bias training to, to review data and to bring in people to, to train people about richly hostile environments because that was what the, the facts of the investigation wart. Thats what, thats what a necessary response is to discrimination. And so when, you know, when we talk about we shouldnt be engaged in these activities, there are times absolutely should. Theres, theres times when, when to offer equal Educational Opportunity to remedy discrimination on the basis of race or or disability, thats exactly what you must do. And the law doesnt, its not a dirty word. Its not, you know, its not something that the law says that we shouldnt do. Its actually something that the law says we must do in some circumstances. And, and we, we were trying to get people in School Communities to know that before theyre required, by us or, or by a court order to do it. But to, but to actually think about the child who, you know, had kids, call the kid a Cotton Picker, you know, call the kid really ugly names and think about how would you want that School Community to repair . How would you want that School Community to, to respond . There are the resource that we issued has examples of a, of a pretty wide variety of kinds of circstances that can come up and that we do see, come up in, in the kinds of investigations that we see. And, you know, we, we were, let me take a step back. Even from that we were conscious in this last year. Weve issued two docents really focused on antisemitism, really focused on the the scourge of what, what appears to be a rise in anti semitic conduct including in schools. And what we see when we see that kind of, of identity based harassment take place in schools is a need to respond as a School Community through de i principles, right . And, and, and, and, and to educate a School Community about why it is harmful to operate based on stereotypes and to, and to lessen someones opportunity to learn based on ugly assptions about who that person is. And, and so im happy to enforce, were, were actively working on, on our enforcement and also issuing press releases and trying to, to share why and when we need action, were also trying to help School Communities come into compliance without our having to need to slap their wrists, right . And to, to share what, what the law requires that, that we provide in our School Community so our kids can be safe. So theres this moment and i think the convening the department of education held in response to, you know, the Supreme Court, this, where you reminded everyone that the office of civil rights, you know, the federal government along with doj , are the ones who are responsible for enforcing those laws. And if you havent heard from you all then like, you know, just keep that in mind, why, why was that such an important reminder to remind everyone that you are, you know, the federal government is tasked with enforcing and responsible for enforcing those laws. I have been disturbed by the degree to which i see, i think deliberate overread of recent Court Decisions including the students for fair admissions decision and and letters direction to School Communities to take action that was not in the courts opinion. And to say that this, this must mean you cannot do these other things that the court didnt address. And some of them are things that the court explicitly didnt address. I mean, it said we are not, we are not addressing this question. And, and so then when i, when i hear a member of congress, when i hear state attorneys general, some activist groups sending letters to schools saying you, you should change these practices because the law demands it. I do think its important to be clear that we issue your colleague letters and, and we do let people know what what the law is and we are pleased and honored to enforce the law exactly as courts interpreted it and is exactly as Congress Writes it. And if there is not a legal requirement to change course, then there is not a legal requirement to change course. And it is important to us to say when there is and its also important to be clear that there isnt. So ive been hogging the conversation for quite a while now. I wanna thank you, thanks for being here. Wanna open it up to our audience, ask questions. So we will come around to you with a microphone. Please wait till the microphone comes to you. Please state your name and affiliation before asking your one question. 11 question, we will hold you to that. Thank you. Hi, thank you so much for this. Im curious, what does the students for fair admissions decision mean for k to 12 schools . Not one thing, the students for fair admissions decision was about harvard and university of North Carolina admissions practices. It doesnt address issues outside that area, including issues with respect to non Higher Education practices so that the law is and has been that individual use of race warrants strict scrutiny and theres a particular legal test for how that applies this, this resource that we issued last friday does speak to that question and, and does address kinds of circumstances that can come up in k 12 circstances, the students for fair admissions decision doesnt address them. And so doesnt impact the the practices in, in those School Communities. Hello. Thank you for your talk. My name is will lyons. I am a fellow with noahs office of education thats short for the National Oceanic and atmospheric administration. And im also a phd candidate at Florida Agricultural mechanic university. Ready to defend. But my question for you is how has your work translated into outcomes for students and youth regarding Environmental Justice and the current justice for the initiatives of the Biden Administration . We are justice adjacent on the, the Environmental Justice work that the Environmental Protection agency has a Civil Rights Office who have jurisdiction over that question specifically. And i am impressed with and cheering on my colleagues there, but, but typically in Environmental Justice questions would go to that office for enforcement. We, there are certainly Environmental Justice issues that can come up in schools and, you know, and the, and the question of whether School Facilities are safe and appropriate for students and whether there are differences in available resources by race or by other protected categories, it that, that we have jurisdiction over, we would be able to address that question. So for example, School Communities are routinely lack air conditioning and its, and its unsafe for kids to be in them and its too hot. You know, thats certainly an Environmental Justice question. Its also a Racial Justice question that, that we would have jurisdiction over. So theres, there, there are some places where we have an entree, and we would be able to address the question and then theres some places where it would be more appropriately addressed to the epa office for civil rights. But theyre also terrific so and and truly delighted to be on it for that work too. Hi. Thank you for coming to speak with us. My name is tanya martinez. I am a Research Associate on the k 12 team here at cap. And my question is with the polarizing communities that exist on the internet. What is the role of Media Literacy and teaching about Online Safety in the k through 12 space as it pertains to civil rights. Im gonna give you the lawyerly answer and a more han answer to just give you a preview that, that there are statutory restrictions on the department of education and the office for civil rights as a part of the department of education setting or, or controlling school curricul. So, we are not able to, to set or control school curricul. Thats a, thats a choice that is locally made. And my office job is to enforce the law. And so we also dont make policy pronouncements about what we might like. We say this is what the law requires. There are times when a question about what the law requires gets to a curricular choice. The lens through which i can look at that question and, and my team at the office for civil rights can look at the question is, is the the racially hostile environment lens or the hostile environment, the disability, hostile environment lens . If, if, if any school choice, including a curricular choice lends itself to the creation or perpetuation or support of a hostile environment, then the school would need to take corrective action. It doesnt necessarily mean that they need to change the curricular choice, but it does mean that they would need to ensure that the environment is safe and appropriate for students to learn without discrimination. So we, we would be able to look at it that way. My views as a citizen a about the, the appropriate choices for literacy and, and democracy, literacy and, and literacy about internet savvy work. You know, i have lots of thoughts on it as a mom. I have lots of thoughts on it as a human being, but as the, the chief civil rights enforcer in the nations schools, thats not an area that, that i get to delve too far into. Thanks. Im and thank you for being here. Im mara redman, the executive Vice President for policy here at American Progress. Really appreciated the conversation very much with, with both of you. And thank you for joining us. On this last week of august before school starts. I wanted to bring you back to the Supreme Court decision and i noted that when jared asked you the question kind of entered the question. He talked about this changing 40 years of precedent. I heard in your response, some looking at and not lawyer speak but looking at the decision as narrowly as possible. I may have overheard that but what im curious about is how you balance a very natural sentiment among people who care that the sky has fallen where they maybe the sky is falling. But heres how we, you know, redirect where this is the space we still have to operate. Where, how do you, what do you advise on that particularly for an organization like American Progress . Sure. I dont see myself looking at the decision as narrowly as possible. I see myself looking at the decision as the court wrote it and, and what the court said was that, that the two universities admissions practices that were in front of the court violate the constitution in title six. Those practices need to change. I emphasize that because thats the law that i enforce. I need to be clear and i hope School Communities are clear that if you recognize your higher ed admissions practices in what was in front of the Supreme Court in the students for fair admissions case, you should change them because the court, the court has said that they are unlawful. The court did not speak beyond that question. And the court said that it didnt speak beyond that question. I have to enforce the laws, the court writes it. So, so to me, there arent very many other options right that the court did not speak to other questions. And so we dont have an answer from the court on those questions. We do have decades of precedent that predate the court unchanged by this courts decision that we do need to adhere to and that my office does need to enforce. And theres plenty of limitation in those decades of precedent already. Its important to live within them. I think its dangerous to read tea leaves in, in what a a court says. The court didnt address that question. And so, so we cant ascribe to the court a view on it that the job of the office for civil rights assigned by congress is to enforce the law on the various kinds of facts that can come in front of us. And there are times that we have to say there is no specific precedent for this fact pattern. And so we are making our best judgment about whether the law does or does not allow those facts to exist that, you know, thats the hard work, right . And thats what, thats the interesting work. We love to do that and weve been doing that for all these decades. Were happy to do that. Its just important not to say that the, that the Supreme Court in this decision said this if it didnt. And so that, that piece i think is important for the rest of us as we think about what do we do next . The there is no question that the courts decision dramatically changed the lawful practices of, of a lot of places over 4. 5 decades. We are now in this new admission cycle needing to operate in a very different way. We had some time to think that that was probably coming. So, you know, thats that, thats the Glass Half Full lens on it. And there were, there were, there are a lot of ways to admit and support and graduate students that are separate and apart from the admissions practice that that was in front of the court. And we now know that we cant operate those ways anymore, but we were not told, we have not been told it is not unlawful to engage in other practices that will achieve diverse campuses. And i know i benefited from a college and a law school that were looking for me and that were looking for my classmates who were nothing like me who, who came together to have hard conversations and that, that made it a richer environment. I want that for my daughter whos in college. I want it for my child whos going to go to college thereafter and they want it for all of your kids. Right. I mean, that, you know, that, thats, thats what, thats what builds effective communities, thats what sustains peoples ability to be prepared to vote and to participate in, in our governments. And so i think theyre important as, as huge as the decision is in terms of changing practices at schools. Theres also an even huger universe that it didnt touch and, and i, and i think we should be focused on whats available while having absolute fealty to what the court says we cannot do to and not do that thing anymore. Right . So, so to me, i mean, theres, theres lots of opportunity thats maybe sad that that all that opportunity was there and we werent availing ourselves of it as a, as a nation. But here it is now and we still have the imperative to educate and prepare diverse student bodies for the diverse world that we live in. We have a question from the online audience over here. This is from congresswoman Sheila Jackson lees office and her staff person asked, youve spoken on how education have played a role in promoting social mobility and reducing inequality. What policies and strategies do you think will be the most effective in achieving these goals, especially in the aftermath of the courts decision. Im an all in person, so i think we should be working on all of the fronts, all of the time every day. And that is sometimes frustrating to my staff. But i actually mean it, that, that when i say that no child has a minute to waste of learning. I mean that and, and so for our focus on schools and, and what, you know, what are the most important strategies to, to make sure that that schools can be the Inclusive Communities that we promise that they will be all of them. We want the teacher in front of the class to be prepared to, to be a teacher to, to be ready to nurture the gifts of every student in the class to recognize that every student brings something to the school, to not be pushing kids out of school, but to be sending a message that school is for you, we want the School Leadership to be Instructional Leaders to be visionaries to be planning for a School Environment thats ready. And that, that offers the full range of resources that should be available to them. We want Higher Education to be accessible and available and affordable for all of us, i mean, all of those things are incredibly important. So, so for me, stop sleeping, stop resting, go volunteer and do the work. I mean, and, and, and, you know, that, that i dont, i dont think we should be picking because theres, theres no part of the education endeavor that isnt incredibly important. And i will again bring it home to my kids. My my oldest one in college is a scientist which i completely dont understand, you know, and you know, she loves her labs and shes so excited about what she can do. And i mean, all i wanted in college was not to have to ever go to another lab, you know. We show up in the world in totally different ways and we have different gifts, different aspirations and all of us should be bringing whatever it is that we have to making the fabric of our society work and, and, and our School Communities should be prepared to support that period. Thank you. I have one more from the virtual audience. This is from nicole hong, from the American Federation of teachers. She says we at aft are hearing more and more from faculty who are involved with graduate student admissions, which is usually a faculty led process. Despite the comprehensiveness of the process, some College Administrators are instructing faculty not to ask about race, not to consider race at all an apparent overcorrection in our read of the scotus decision. What advice would you give specifically to faculty and administrators involved in graduate admissions will guidance specific to graduate admissions be forthcoming . So i never promise what were going to issue. So, you know, ill make the announcement, we have an announcement on that. So i will just give you my standard non answer on that. But that, but on the, the more specific question, the court did not tell Admissions Officers to ignore race. It did not and it did not say that harvard or unc or any other school needed to not know or unsee what its leads in the students files. It did not tell students that they could not talk about race in their own emissions assets. And in point of fact, it said they could like it answered that question explicitly and, and i think a fair ancillary or corollary to that is that Guidance Counselors could write about kids race if they wanted to and other recommender could write about that if they wanted to. But, but that theres nothing in the courts opinion that said that the the experience of a person applying to the school, including that persons race cannot be accounted for as part of the admissions decision in in the admissions decision making. So, so that that is very much an over of, of the courts decision and its definitely not legally required that, that schools not consider who their applicants are. As they are making decisions about whom to, to welcome into their School Communities. Any other questions in the room . I love this nuts audience. My name is madison weiss. Im on the Higher Education team here at cap. So thank you so much for this wonderful conversation today. So my question is around the Civil Rights Data collection. We know provides a really user friendly way to find information on Student Access to particular resources within the elementary and secondary schools. So does the ocr have a similar resource, reviewing info about colleges and universities . And if not, is that something that your office might eventually pursue . Well, i would love it. I love data and i so appreciate your talking about the Civil Rights Data collection, which i will tell you is coming out soon. And im very excited to be able to share what we see in the most recent data. Also, ive been excited and sad because theres a lot of inequality, but we knew that and i think its important to be able to use it among all of our communities. And i really appreciate the point that you made too, that it, that its successful. And thats relatively recent, but that was a change that my predecessor and the Obama Administration made for the data. So that wasnt just something that we used. We, we have been collecting the Civil Rights Data collection since 1968 and weve been using it in our civil rights enforcement. But ali, who was, was the, the assistant secretary for civil rights before i was in the obama years made it more transparent and more accessible externally so that more people could use it. And i, i love that about it. So im delighted that people are using it. I would welcome having parallel data in in a parallel data look into institutions of Higher Education. There are some statutory limitations on our ability to gather that. I heard that congresswoman jackson lees office was, was on which its very exciting. Maybe there will be a statute that gives us more authority on this at some point. But that, that theres also expense associated with it. And the Civil Rights Data collection is among the more expensive endeavors in the office for civil rights. We are budgetarily limited as it is. The president called for a 27 increase in in our budget, which i would really welcome that would allow us to bring another 150 people to do enforcement to be able to create an a new bi annual massive Data Collection that we are able to then clean up and and make public. We would need some more, some more millions of dollars to be able to do as well. But i would welcome it. I mean, i, you know, i, i think that theres, we do a lot with the data that we have. That, that is the Civil Rights Data collection, which is, is, p 12. And i would certainly welcome , to be able to have that kind of look at and information about the experiences of students in Higher Education as well. Hi, im alison gill with american atheists. So theres been a disturbing proliferation of book bands across the country and different, you know, schools particularly targeting you know, black authors and lgbt q authors and issues. And so i guess im, im curious, have you seen an increase in complaints on those issues first . And secondly, what, what can the office do to address that . What is the office doing to, to address those issues . So, weve seen an increase in complaints, which isnt saying that much because we hadnt seen any complaints on the topic. But also because there really werent book bands of this type that we havent been for some decades. And, and thats a cycle, a disappointing cycle in american history, but it is a cycle for us and, and, and were back in the part of the cycle where book bans are very present part of the education conversation and the, the resource that we released last, last week. Talks about the racially hostile environments, sexual hassle, it was racial has environments there, but sexual hassle environments are also relevant to the book ban questions as you mentioned. Thats the lens through which we would be able to examine operation of the band. We, we dont, as i mentioned, have Statutory Authority to determine what curricul is offered in a school. We do have a statutory mandate to address the existence of a racially sexually or disability based hostile environment that can exist in a school. And if curricular choices cross over into that, then thats something that, that we must investigate and, and address where needed. We, we have several cases in investigation on the topic. Now we have resolved with, with one School District recently on the topic and there, the, the terms are specific to what was happening in that district but, but, but there, the district had already in place a, a very inclusive policy. The district had not followed some statutorily required steps that the title line regulation, which is the discrimination, the regulation of the discrimination statute that we enforced as, as amended in the trp administration requires that when a, a School Community knows about possible sexual harassment, a possible host environment, the School Committee must inform the possibly affected students how to file a complaint, how to reach out to the title line coordinator and available supports and that district didnt. There was a prettytextbook concern there about a need to act. We have asked the district to make sure that the students know the title i coordinator, the title six coordinator. And also what supports are available and to, to assess whether they, they need to take action to address a possible hostile environment there. So, you know, that would be the lens that, that we, we would and could access the question. And and i am dismayed by by the number of times that people have felt the need to come to us about it because they are, they are feeling like that the selective bans of particular books in their schools and their School Communities is impacting their ability to learn. This will be our last question. Hi, my name is rihanna saslow. Im with education reform. Now, i was wondering how you advise schools and districts to implement Proactive Solutions to harassment in, in very polarizing age where teachers dont feel comfortable or outright not allowed to discuss race and gender in the classroom. So your question breaks my heart. Let me just start that some things are hard for me. My job is Law Enforcement and so i am not commonly in the business of advising people about proactive steps to take because i am commonly in the business of telling them the things that they need to do when they have violated the law that that there are steps that schools can take and, and educators in schools can take to ensure inclusive environments. I welcome it when schools are thoughtful about how to make sure that everyone in their midst can learn and can be respected and valued for who they are. Those include not communicating to students that they are unwelcome for who they are not communicating to students that, that the educator in the classroom, that the school tolerates harassment based on who students are. There are kinds of things that ive seen School Communities do that are, that are inclusive that work well, that, you know, that include making sure that, that the examples that they offer, that the materials that they teach about reflect a range of ways the kids might show up at school and the ways that the students might show up as learners, those, those are kinds of steps that can take, i can tell you the things that we would require a school to do if they have discriminated, you know, and, and and they would certainly need to be the law is that they must be enough to, to redress the harm that has taken place. So they wanna be, they would want to be fact specific, specific and they would want to be responsive, but they often would include analyzing data, collecting information from students about impact on them. And then they might offer counseling, they might offer training for School Communities, they might offer educational materials that talk about prevention that let people know how to be an ups standard and, and how to be part of an effective School Community that is supportive but, but the lens that i bring to it is the enforcement lens. And so it is that what, what must you do to correct this thing that you have done that has harmed someone . I want to thank you so much for being here and joining us in conversation. Just thank you for your time and thank you for your work. Thank you. Thank you all for coming in. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I think you just reminded