Transcripts For CSPAN3 Faith 20240703

In with us or at home watching on our online stream to recognize any world war. Two Veterans Home front or holocaust survivors. So i dont believe we are fortunate have any with us tonight. But for those watching at home, lets give a round of applause. Also, id like to acknowledge and thank our patriots circle members and our charter members for the support you all provide, not just with but with friendship and attendance and making it worthwhile to put these programs on. Id like to recognize dr. Michael, whos in the audience with us. One of our original Board Members of the National World war two museum. Thank you, dr. Carey. As many you know, the museum is nearing the completion of its liberation pavilion, which will open just right across the. One of those six galleries that well be discussing, liberation and the legacies of World War Two is focused on in wartime. Faith sustained. Many americans members abroad as well as those on the home front who were left worrying about their loved ones. The faith in wartime gallery will explore the essential role through personal accounts, artifacts, oral histories as we, through all of our other galleries. And it all to illustrate important topic and reveal the complexity of religious practice during World War Two. Tonights lecture is our annual faith in wartime lecture, which we have hosted since 2014. And this was started to supplement our future liberation pavilion so that we can bring Educational Opportunities to you here and those at home. So we hope you are looking at your websites and paying attention to the upcoming announcements about all thats going to be place with the liberation pavilion. This series would have been possible were it not for Baptist Community ministries. Ecm has been supportive of the museum since before 2014, but theyve been very supportive of the greater new orleans area. Its committed improving the mental physical and Spiritual Health of people and communities in the five parish greater new orleans area. So thanks to bcm for this and for all that theyve done with museum around of applause for our sponsor for the evening. And that gets us to our program for tonight. And we are delighted to have with us dr. Kurt piehler, who will be on his book, a religious history of the american gi in World War Two. Kurt is somebody weve known of known his work, but weve never had him here, despite it his his very related topics which ill tell you about as i read his bio. He is a specialist in u. S. History with an emphasis the 20th century. He received his degree from Drew University and his ph. D. From rutgers. Hes the author of multiple books, including the one well hear about tonight. Also remembering the american way and war two and american soldiers lives series. Held academic positions at baruch City University of new york Drew University and a rutgers. And at rutgers, he was the founding director of the rutgers oral history of World War Two. And over 200 interviews with World War Two veterans. Which is obviously something very near and dear to our museum and its mission as we try to tell the American Experience in World War Two through those who lived it. Dr. Peeler, currently serves as the director of the institute on war two and the Human Experience down the road at Florida State university and interviewing will be our very own executor of director of the jenny craig institute. Dr. Michael bell mike is, a over three decade in service to our country in the us army and then another decade on top of that working in various positions with central command, the joint staff west point faculty, National Defense University Secretary of state, etc. Etc. He has his ph. D. From the university of maryland and he is excited to talk to dr. Kurt piehler about this wonderful topic. Mike, take it away. Well, thanks, jeremy. So, so the crowd, you know, kurt covers in amazing amount of ground in book, everything from mobilizing the nation for war. Fdr, his role the mobilization of the Chaplain Corps transition things civilians into gis the gis encountering other cultures and faiths around world. And he gets into ethical conduct of war, faith and the world of fight, race military women, casualties is reconciliation with enemies, legacies of wars. I say that because were not going to get all that in the conversation. But some of you may want to have questions about those topics. And there, you know, its all in this amazing book. You know, kurt, maybe you could start out, you know, before we launch into the meat just, give us a sense about how it is you you came to write this book, you know, what got you interested in this topic . And and then were going to launch into the next piece. Yeah its interesting because i was i really cant cant be happy to have been invited to speak here. I knew Stephen Ambrose back in the early nineties. He spent a semester at when i was there on a postdoc. And ill always be indebted to steve. Not only did he endorse my first book, but he had a crucial meeting where the class of 40 to agree to fund. Rutgers oral history archive, which was supposed to be a two year project but is now is will soon have its 30th anniversary. And i took project and i started interviewing World War Two veterans in an initially was just a job that was going to keep me going for two years until i got something permanent but about two months into interviewing these World War Two interviewers, these were two veterans. I realized id given this great gift, not just of having job, but these were incredible stories. And because i had no book in mind, i decided do life course interviews and i interviewed among things was about religion and the two things that struck me at the time i never pursued at the time was i think those are those who came of age in the twenties and thirties lived in a very sectarian period. And for example, talked about confrontation with antisemites. They talked about mandatory chaplains, else always remember my stepfather. My stepfather mothers story growing up in new jersey in the twenties and thirties and how the klan was burned across near his house because they were the first catholic family in the town. But when i interviewed these these World War Two era veterans and and and those on the home front, the wartime experience gi after gi, i talked about a about an army particularly that was very accommodating to religious pluralism. Fast forward a number of years later, i was going to do this audacious book project, the american to nazi germany and started doing research on the book. And i got a generous grant to do it to go to the fdr library to use their collections and i, i said, let me pull stuff first about religion. I dont know something intrigued me and when i found my topic, i just, i abandoned that other project. But it was a series of led of documents to Franklin Roosevelts russia, china green. So every year, roosevelt would be asked to give roosevelt hashanah greetings, the jewish new year holiday greetings and. I read these and id worked once in a Congressional Office as an intern, so i knew this is very much stock in trade of what politicians do. But i also found these readings very poignant, as you read them from 33 to 44 because you can see the courts of worsening relations abroad and the war. And i thought is really remarkable that american could count on the present united states, give them greetings on and on, on russia, china. That made me very intrigued about and roosevelt and i and i came to the topic, let me do the religious history of the american g. I. So. So, you know, one of the things, kurt does, i think. Well is as weve seen the different perspective. So, you know, youre expecting to hear this story about the jewish experience, but youre also covering heres fdr, his views and policy making, and then how that policy is implemented in a bureaucracy, organizational cultures, you know, different denominations, asians. And so, you know its its quite expertly done but what he weaves is really this notion of religious tolerance and pluralism is and which is a legacy of World War Two is not an accident that this actually becomes a very conscious choice by. And you know these brotherhood de pieces and then one of the things we feature in liberation one is fdr four freedoms and particular the freedom of religion piece that is so powerful and so could you talk a little bit about how that fdr role because, thats something you wouldnt necessarily if youre thinking of a war in society book, you know, to really look at the president in his role and how elemental that is. Yeah. One of the things that struck me and i have to say i fell completely in love with franklin roosevelt. And when i began to understand my stepfather so loved roosevelt because he one thing thats very clear is religion was very important to him. He was very difficult to pin down. But there was a consensus that really that religious faith really inspired him, but also his rhetoric way before World War Two. I mean he gives an address to the National Council of christians and , a National Radio address on their behalf. And he says, we enriched by religious pluralism that we each group has something to offer to the American Public and we benefit from that. And he also said the struggle shouldnt be different religions, the real struggle is between those who have faith and those who do not. Hes very akin to to the nazis denial in the midthirties of religious and also of the soviet unions abandonment of religion. He thought religion was really important to a liberal democratic society. But i also was really impressed that that roosevelt really practiced what he preached. He had incredibly diverse administer nation in terms of his appointments. He had scores of catholics and served with him. But also in an era where theres real estate quotas, where there was often a certain set want to socialize with. He would have the rosenman live with him in the executive mansion in york when he was governor of new york. The romans would regularly visit him. The white house. He was close personal friends. The morgenthau so so to him, i mean. Rosenman, i think said it best about roosevelt and working roosevelt in his belief in religious pluralism. And he said, i initially took a job with roosevelt just just because it was a job, but i absolutely fell in love with the guy because among the things he didnt care about your background it didnt matter to him in that whether you could do the job. And he had this this this incredibly diverse set of people. And i think that sort of the military much embodies that. Roosevelt he envisioned theres a real effort to promote both promote the free exercise of religion, but also to promote religious pluralism and and to really appreciate the differences among american gis, you know, of the things i think you do very well is is emphasize roosevelt wanted the chaplaincy the Chaplain Corps to really exercise his freedom of religion there but also to respect the religious differences and their religious views of each of the chaplains. Well, and this kind of tri faith pluralism of protestants, catholics and together in idea. And so you know, well talk about the limits of that in a minute. But really, its interesting as a very deliberate piece of policy. And then how roosevelt then implements it going forward, moving that. So the next one that i think i think kurt does amazingly well in this book is challenged this common view out there that the gis didnt know what they were fighting against, what theyre fighting for and, that, you know, that theyre just fighting for their comrades. And they really didnt understand what the war was about. And you have a great piece in there about, you know, George Marshall was very concerned about this topic early in the war that you guys dont understand and, you know, they launched this why we fight series but theyll actually go out and survey a control group that havent seen why we fight. And an amazing i mean, its really staggering. Ive got him here just so we dont put her on the spot. 70 believe that germany or japan were seeking world domination, 82 believe that if hitler wanted to persecute and minorities and that 75 believe that hitler would shut down the churches. And this is the group did not see why we fight which which really i thought incredible piece about the motivation in there so you know what but how did you find that insight and you know what do you what do you think of that . Do you think this was representative . Is this kind of a skewed survey . No, i think the surveys fairly and i think i think and i think we have this trope its an important one. I think comradeship is an important glue to sustain, but i dont think thats the only explanation. And i was struck how a story thats the story they used the samuel stove four volumes the american project the army actually had people do social survey of soldiers what they thought and soldiers said to them the contrary comradeship was in fact very important. But number one was prayer. A above even comradeship, but even more is when they gone into ideological motivation. I was sort of stunned that that a majority of gi said to when surveyed that we have even gone to the war against hitler to stop the persecution in europe and this this is way before the full realization of the holocaust occurred. And i think theres lot of real evidence that the americans knew what was at stake because when interviewed gis about being taken prisoner or, about the experience, you know, or their reaction to it, a number of them talk about telling their jewish comrade to throw away dog tax or willingness to exchange dog dog every note everyone knew the nature of the nazi if they were captured, if were captured. Yeah, yeah. Not to throw away their dog it out but theres a big theres a big i mean theres one pilot he three sets of dog tags he had he wore his jewish dog tags. But when he was flying in north germany had a protestant dog tag and he had and was in south germany, he had a catholic tag. He ended up getting shot down in in southern germany. He was sent to a catholic hospital. He said treatment was first rate and they were they were they humans first in german setters. So you know, its interesting that this so for survey that course referred to, you know, 55 of those surveyed thought the service was detrimental. I hate to see that, but theres army officer. But what was fascinating, though, 60, 60 said their service increased their faith and only 18 cited a weakening of their religious faith because of wartime service. Really an interesting kind of set of facts there. I thought that was it really does of challenge some of those common ideas. Yeah i mean one of the things i think what i one of the big surprises in doing this study was we think of theres a lot literature on the civil war and religion and i read some of it, but ive often thought weve overstated the religious study of the civil war soldier. This was the that gave us the name hookers for prostitutes and we should we should not overdo do the religiosity the civil war soldier. And i think we underestimate the religious of the World War Two soldier. But even more stunning from a policy perspective, we had never put as much resources. The chaplaincy and religion promoting, religion as World War Two. When you consider, for example, when the Confederate Army went to the field in 1861, half of the units didnt have chaplains. Theres really a very unprofessional Chaplaincy Corps until the war, one era. But we we we end up appointing an unprovoked shooting and appointing an unprocessed and commissioning an unprecedented number of clergy as chaplains. And theyre all volunteers. And we also strive to it representative of of of the religious diversity and racial diversity of the of the country. We build chapels for the first time in a systematic basis on army bases. And we issue a government expense scriptures for four catholic, protestant and. So we recognize this diversity and we provide this. So i think in some ways its not surprising. And also those well, there are only two true groups of true volunteers in the World War Two military. There are women because they cant be drafted and, theyre chaplains. If you were a cleric, you were automatically for service. So every chaplain wants to be there. And i think this really reflective most are really quite in their job. No, i think thats important piece. And the will encounter the chaplains from the Training Camps all the way through you know in some cases you know the cemetery said you know of the chaplain 327 are killed wounded or missing in this and i thought was interesting youre treatment of the chaplains become prisoners of war of japan. You know they have a much higher mortality than the american soldiers who are prisoners. Japan, which is already about percent. You know. So so, you know, the ministry continue even in those camps. So if you have a second, maybe give us a sense of first, you know what is the role of the chaplains in this. As the militarys put together new chapels are built. You know i occurred i was my wife and i were in one of these temporary World War Two chapels up in fort by one of these soldiers who after the became a jesuit, you know, so, you know, his own faith had been increased in that. And so it was the last act of duty world two chaplain. So, you know his book certainly resonates, you know what did the everyday soldiers have contact with these chaplains and how did how did that out . So so contact really interesting some would go to chapel and it was catholics were very faithful about going to mass and protestants particularly were very envious of of of the catholic of the Catholic Catholic going so so devoutly to the to chapel services. Tended to go less to chapel and more to high holidays like Rosh Hashanah pass, you know, passover. Where you would also chaplains was counseling they were the one person you could tell anything to and could count on their confidence even you could even physically as could be be required to divulge what was told to them. But a chaplain was the one person you could go and comfort in. And so one of the things chaplains uniformly talk about is counseling men not only on issues, but but the real range issues. I mean, one guy was one naval chaplain was in training and he had a he had a do duty basically at the at the railroad station. And he said range of people that came up to him one guy came and was looking he had to drop off his car to his mother to pick up and how he was going to make arrangements. He ran into some british sailors looking for places for recreation, but he ran into one guy who confessed to him that he had really screwed up on training. He and he cheated on the exam and he was feeling about it. So counseling a uniform thing that that that chaplain that chaplains of chaplains now Navy Chaplains were interesting they they might be encountered they might be giving running the the Ships Library or the base library they might also be giving your exams promotions. A Navy Chaplain be required to do other things. The other thing i think that i found remarkable about chaplains and this let me tell baptist these baptists were were sponsoring that this and i had a i had these Great Stories. I had a cut down. But one story i was struck by, because it was i had spent some time in tennessee and in knoxville and and there was a chaplain had who had a baptist minister who had gotten degree from Carson Newman and. He is the chaplain out in the pacific for division, scattered all over. And chaplains will require to serve all all irrespective of their faith. No they were not required to lead services of other faith, but some did so is the Catholic Priest. Hes on an island right back to the to the military chief of chaplains. He says, oh, i love taking care of catholic boys, but i love leading the Protestant Services. And i even leave friday night for the , for the jewish jewish boy and the chief of chaplains writes back to him, sort of tongue in cheek, almost, because the chief of chaplains is a monsignor. He says, you are supposed to organize services for your jewish boys. And you ask you can even give lectures on morality. You cant be leading jewish services. You will lose your your your your your status as a priest. But i want this chaplain, chaplain mosley, this this Baptist Baptist chaplain a chaplain. He is there is there is no chaplain for this division. But he as one jewish guy later wrote home to to the back to the hut, back home about what this chaplain did. He was he was diligent in when he came to different parts of this this his his his where he was visiting to for so that could hold services. You need a menu. You need ten to say certain prayers during services. But even more remarkable is he organized. The Rosh Hashanah service and preached at the Rosh Hashanah service and that and chaplain chaplain mosley ended up having a very career not only as a as a minister of various baptist churches, later settling in oklahoma became became president of oklahoma baptist university. But he was very he was very reflect of of chaplains who tried to serve all. And so would be the rabbi. Hes the only chaplain aboard. A ship ready for an invasion of the pacific. He would lead all three services now. He would not say mass, but he would he would he would, in fact, organize the hymns. He would have a have a that was appropriate. He would do the he said this one chow he did the catholics service, the Protestant Service and the jewish service. And he said most of the men stayed for all three of the services. And that that very much the norm, i think, of most chaplains to serve all all giving of their faith the so so you talk about the kind of service kind of pre battle where you know for the for the group it might be interesting no you know where you see the chaplains during the battle and what roles did they play and in many ways these shaped the roles that we have chaplains you performing even today in terms of bartok so its interesting theres one chaplain i there were three chaplains i greatly admired for the tri faith. So the first one i might Say Something about is, is rabbi eichhorn from from tallahassee. And he did say, where were some of the chaplains he was very derisive of those chaplains with very clean boots, with skin by his boots and very clean clothing because because eichhorn made it a point to drive all over the theater of and get close to the front line as possible. And because driver got a little how do i he as he described once he got a little excited a little nervous when shelling came in he decided to drive himself and he even got arrested by pats mp for driving his own jeep. But eichhorn tried to be as close to battle and hence he was once ordered to lead service in this town that not been fully. In fact, he showed up and the only people there were intelligence. But sure enough, hes Held Services there. And to give you a sense of how he was to the front line, he he said as he was leaving military intelligence said to him, well we know the germans are youre now out of artillery range because the germans would have shelled such a large concentration of men gathering for at one point. And eichhorn observed in his diary he didnt think that he was not so amused to be sort of used to sort of put out there that another chaplain i greatly chaplain samson he was a Roman Catholic priest who served as a chaplain, an airborne unit. And he jumped into dday and he was captured and one of the Great Stories i love that about religious pluralism and diversity ity and sectarianism is hes hes being held prisoner. And he says to these guy he says, these men, you could say the lords prayer to comfort you. And they start the lords prayer. And then and he says, a fight breaks out between the protestant boys and the catholic about whats the proper way to. Say the lords prayer and he reflects in his memoir, he said i almost i was almost in hysterics over this you know were were in this dangerous situation. And these guys are arguing over, you know, the last words of, the lords prayer. And he says to them, stop it. Say the way you know, lets stop arguing. And he he managed to escape this first capture. He in these men managed to escape he rejoins this airborne unit, but then hes later captured during the battle, the bulge, and hes on this grueling march to the prison camp. And he had not only great physical courage to jump in dday, but great moral courage. So when the germans segregate the from jewish guy, from from gentile gis, he along with the red cross representative and along with the senior enlisted men of confidence, all protested to germans of this of the segregation. And then finally, theres israel yost, whos a lutheran whos very lutheran theology, is really important, him and he really, for example he will not lead buddhist ceremonies. Hes very respectful. He will give the buddhists access to his tent. He will make it a point to go on to the battlefield and retrieve the dead even, and to no mans land and. Hes also incredibly when i say respectful of religious pluralism, well, id like convert all these buddhists, half the unit is buddhist to two to be good lutherans. He also makes it a point to make sure that buddhists get a non to denominational marker, that the there that the army has three temporary markers. There is a cross there, a star david and theres a nondenominational mark and he makes it a point to put non denomination markers on these buddhist graves. The really good chaplains were incredibly close to close to the i mean this one episcopal priest talks about sharing a foxhole on the other jima and chaplains not supposed to be armed. But he says every night i took my pistol and put bullet in it. And every in the morning i would take the bullet out. And he he he, you know, and he and he one points get so close to battle, one of one of the marines say to him he says, stop a chaplain, your risk youre taking too many risks and we going to endanger us. We we feel we need to protect you. You need to lay a little bit back. So you mentioned the buddhists. Lets lets talk a little bit about where where this. Kind of fdr piece breaks down a bit. And, you know, maybe we could start with the 4 42 Regimental Combat Team and the search for a buddhist cleric and you know what the solution. Yeah, they are the army to its credit. And im indebted to a fellow scholar might run that stall. I mean it was interesting she did larger book on the chaplaincy in the 20th century so she saved me a lot of research on this topic. But and army did try she argues halfheartedly to get a buddhist chaplain. I will say to the armys credit, they now they could not find a suitable candidate that would qualify because you were you had to be of certain age. You had to have a certain physical, you know, physical fitness to to to to to qualify. You also had to have a College Degree and theological education. So this qualified a lot where i would say the army was very good was it did have several nisei chaplains who are protestant ministers and the army really does try to reflect religious pluralism. The other what i found remarkable about the armys is their efforts to to Commission Africa and american ministers. They thought that it was important have africanamerican ministers serve africanamerican gi. Now what i found less how do i put where there was a lot of Institution Racism is white chaplain could serve black troops when there were not enough but a black chaplain could not serve white troops nor could say the army almost does not commission a native american minister, because we the argument is we dont have enough of native american ministers. They they turned down the chinese american minister because they think they did not think they thought in very racial terms of who could serve who, that you couldnt have a chineseamerican minister serve white unit, the you know, and then certainly theres differences with the navy and, you know, how long it takes them to bring africanamerican chaplains or rabbis. Well, and any notion of Service Difference with respect to chaplains. Yeah, the dilemma the army was the army is one is one. Scholars talked about armys the willing servant that it does what the commander in chief wants. And what Congress Wants it to do. So to me, its not surprising the army puts all these resources in to religion, because this was important to the roosevelt i knew. I knew a really distinct naval officer, rosemary mariner, who was in the first group of naval aviators. And she would educate me about the navy. And she said the navys attitude was, good for the navy is good for the country. And she and its interesting about religious pluralism. The navy is pretty good, but for example. Well, the army has hundred black chaplains the navy has two that that they commissioned. It is it is initially very slow to to commission black to commission jewish chaplains compared compared the army where the army has additions of black chaplains, civilian chaplains from the civil war and a war one point a number of chaplains and by World War Two theyre several hundred jewish chaplains the navy is much slower and much more reluctant. The Army Promotes its chief, a chaplain, to be majgen by the end of the war. William, one of the unsung heroes, the war. He is william arnold. This this, this priest who had been the career chaplain all the way back to the early 1900s in the philippines, but also had worked for hed been with the circus at one point, like the and he he is he is prevatican two. He is vatican two. Before theres vatican. I mean, he is just he has his titles rope to walk with with catholic theology and canon law and wants to take care of his catholic troops his catholic troops, but also his protestant troops and troops. I mean, writes the most delightful letter hes to passover seder in washington by the u. S. So and he writes the sweet letter saying i wish i could make it, but its holy week and ill be busy. But were really the foot, you know, we are really enriched by it, by those who embrace religion, you know, that he really says what youre doing is. Really important. The navy, there is a struggle to, you know, really dont want to make the chief a chaplain, a rear admiral. He is still under the chief of Naval Operations of the navy gives gives chaplains lots of auxiliary duties and theres much less autonomy of a chaplain on board a navy ship. So there are some chaplains. The commander literally will not give them space easily to hold services. And theres whereas a chaplain in the army has much, theyre still Staff Officers still have to follow the essentially the order of battle. But theres much greater autonomy under army regulations. Yeah because in the army they a personal staff rather than of the line piece. Lets lets talk though another area where breaks down is women as chaplains you know the decision in the bureaucracy is is not have female ministers and i thought one of the interesting pieces you know theres kind of two sides of it. One was, you know, the message to the parents was you can be reassured that were going to look after the moral and spiritual welfare of your daughters if they join the wax. But oh, by the way, theres if they have a chaplain, its going to be a man. And i was i was its very interesting. Got a piece about Lieutenant Colonel Charity Adams early from the 6 to 8 central postal directory battalion, which we feature here. But her unit actually had a male chaplain. So heres a female whack battalion like thats all women, except guy, the chaplain and. Yeah. And she has the think she is not promoting proper morality in in the unit is shes allowing it shes allowing too many dances and casualness and terry adams is is is the daughter of a minister so shes no moral like slacker and he she as this chaplain gives this sermon basically impugning her character and by end of the day hes transferred out of the unit and its a wonderful story. And i to say that with women, i mean, arnold have as much as i admired chief of chaplain monsignor arnold, he he was a there were some that he was a bit of a misogynist. Theres just no way around it. And for example, he did want women to be chaplains assistance. He thought, oh, if you have women as chaplains, the system men wont men wont want to go to visit chaplains. Wheres the to the credit, the navy, they less problems with women women chaplains assistance but that i think something workman is a presbyterian but there were chaplains that did they did apply to the army and said ministries who applied was a woman who was chaplain for the Illinois Senate in illinois who said i want to serve the wax. Cant you commission a commission me . The army said only men could be chaplains irrespective of what different religious had. You know, in terms of their religious practices in. Terms of in terms of the in terms of of the appointment of ministers now its an kind of you know, where the where the idea is great and then it breaks down in practice and you know then to see know men in a battalion was you know pretty interesting lets about another kind of shift and breakdown if you will you know how does morale and religion shift during the war especially with regard the use of force and and you treat a bit you with air power legitimate targets because certainly religion has a piece to play and in that morality understanding yeah there was more concern i will have to say it was sometimes disappointing in time there was more concerned with with individual morality and sexuality and all the faiths where united. In fact one of the reasons for the chaplaincy and for the uso was to keep guys of gin, joints, brothels and gambling. I mean, as much as love the war, which generation dont turn into saints . They were not of all saints. And i, i absolutely. You know. Oh, the World War Two generation, a crucial part of my career, they they funded me at a crucial point. So i adore them. But dont dont turn the hustle saints there there was the morality thing does come up i mean it it is it is striking i think one chaplain says he said came up more in vietnam and korea, but he said it came up once on his ship. Know he these these sailors came to him and they hulsey had said kill all know even if they were in the water and these sailors approached him and he said, we dont think thats really right to kill sailors, even enemy sailors. The water, we should rescue them. And he said, you know, he thought this was actually valid and he said to his he actually passes up to the chain of command. He actually talked to the executive, the xo, and said, you know these these my men have said this. And he and he got a very evasive answer and he said, fortunately, we never we never had that that incident occur. I think i think where where you see also attention, you see it with some gis, but also chaplains is there are japanese christians. I mean, there is a really strong missionary impulse. There, a really strong missionary movement, particularly the Catholic Church. So nagasaki had a very large actually catholic population relative to japan and what to do when you encountered japanese war dead, who were who we know were christian what to do with japanese prisoners of war and how to minister to i think there is a greater awareness in the european theater about the humanity of of the of of the enemy. I mean i think in one sort of both sincere but also propaganda effort they decide to broadcast an easter to the german lines saying were united by our faith. I think this is an element of sincerity, but also but also propaganda. But theres much less willingness, even on the part of some chaplains to recognize humanity of the enemy that we kill the enemy because theyre the enemy, not we hate them, which is and that that was a tension that i think a lot of of of theologically even jewish chaplains tried to wrestle with, you know, how to how to prosecute this war without losing our humanity. And there are ethical and legal restraints on, warfare. So and, you know, as the air war in particular escalates, the 1945 and, you know, the targeting really of urban centers and you know rail and you know distributed, japanese factories, you know what, maybe you know, give us a sense where secretary of war Henry Stimson comes down with kyoto and and you. Yeah, because we really move really away from the American Vision of, you know, 1941 of precision daylight bombing. Yeah. One of the things what are the discoveries i have in this came from a minister. There was a mission arie who. Right. He ends up not enlisting a minister as a chaplain, but works in intelligence. And he a memo. He thinks that we should bomb the religious shrines totally to sort of you to sort of end the war early he says lets lets burn the religious shrines which which is against International Law at time and stimson henry. I think, were those who had some ethical qualms. I mean, it did not occur often, but theres one case, you know, there at least was one pilot who would became deeply troubled and had to be taken off the line because was he was troubled by the early aerial bombing. But but stimson, for example, thought we could we should not ban kyoto with the atomic bomb because he thought this is has such great cultural and religious significance to the japanese people. And that and and that there were limits and we try to spare often religious structures and really, you know, religious religious shrines. And i think that that was one one of our you know, that was i think americans americans and also allied troops at their best. So with that know ive got another page of questions but how about if we open it up to the audience here and see what questions you have and if thats or did i preempt this, i can move to quickly to the contrary. If you raise your hand, bring the microphone to you. Gentlemen, well well start with a round of applause for a great conversation. Thank you. The first question is going to go in the center aisle here. If you could please stand and thank you mentioned that a lot of the gis covered for so that the germans would know who was jewish how would the germans even know who was jewish anyway . Was it indicated on their dog tags. Yeah. You had that you would be asked whether you could keep it lit. You could put no religious identity on your dog tag, but you could put either h for jewish c, for catholic or p for protestant. And so some whats interesting is the jewish welfare board said that you should in fact put their identity there. So that was that was often the way they knew. And some instead had either alternate tags or threw away their dog tags or didnt put religion. Then they also would get from name, you know, the names or even so some guys were identified as jewish because they looked they looked jewish. One of the remarkable stories i found that i wanted to dig deeper there were i had a trend my book 170,000 words to 130,000 words. But i became realized i needed to talk about p. O. W. Camps. And i wondered, so what was the experience of p. O. W. Camps . And this is the importance of International Law to the large International Law had barely been established on treatment of prisoners. And fortunately, both the germans and british and the americans agreed to adhere to the geneva convention. So most , if they got to a into a prisoner of war camp, were largely could in fact were treated like any other p. O. W. There were a few that ended up in concentration towards the end of the war, but most most most do fought. And there even cases of services being held in in in prison camps. I could even tell another. Well should tell this a kid resistance story. Well, thats fine. Come on. So there was this one guy. Hes a jewish. Hes he says i am very secular i am, i am, i am. You know, i jewish basically almost in name only. And hes shot down over and he says the officer invites me to dinner you know but when hes put back into the prison you know cage basically this this nco beats him up because hes jewish and then the officer makes apologize because you dont do this an officer. And then he sent an Interrogation Center in in in germany, in frankfurt and he and he said and hes determined im only im only going to do name, rank and, serial number. And they know im a. You know, like im not not going to forget. And he says the interrogation was a joke because this guy has training manuals. I am the amateur. This guy is, the professional, interrogating him, interrogating me, and he refuses to answer any questions. Hes hes hes and the integrity is like, youre jewish, you know what will happen . He goes back to, you know, his cell like a few hours later release him and hes put in charge of a of prisoners going to a p. O. W. Camp. This is my lockup. But in charge of these, he gets to this p. O. W. Camp, you know, in size to observe passover. And he doesnt know when the dates are. Yes. Fellow soldier when it is. And then one night he says the flares come down and. Hes he knows what this means. Were going to get bombed. So he crawls under his bunk and prays to god. And he says to god. If you spare my i will become a rabbi and god spares his life. And he becomes a rabbi. He says after these experiences, no congregational president could ever intimidate. I mean, i just thought it was a remarkable story of, you know, how complicated war is, the experiences, you know, this this this, this very secular becomes, very religious. As a result of surviving the war. The next question is going to be to your left. Its a great story. So as a volunteer here at the museum promised a lady from georgia came through today to ask this question her she was unable to come. She has a grandfather who involved in World War Two. And was he thinks he was given from army a rosary. Is this true that they gave army rosaries and the other i have is being a new orleans and i have to ask if you know anything about bishop pan am archbishop. Its funny, theres so much i i know a lot about it, but i learned about bishop today. So theres as i said, there are 40,000 words that didnt enter my book and there are plenty of stories. Im waiting for someone do a whole book on black chaplains because there are all these great records in of the rosary. What happened was . I think this is what happened is the catholic the military bishop and groups all around the military bishop said all kinds of supplies to the to the chaplains. The chaplains would then distribute it. And it was so interesting. There was such an arms race because the catholics were catholic chaplains and Catholic Charities were really good about distributing things like the rosary the protestant began to wonder maybe we need to come up with something because the catholics have the rosary. What to what do we give out . This is literally a there was i think the thing i so interesting about the that the chaplains are pretty much get along and the guys for a large extent get along i mean theyre bigots but theyre most get along the hierarchy of say, a lot of protestant leaders and a lot of the catholics. Theyre very suspicious of each other. And so given this of priests today i mean the protestant think there is a bottomless of priests and they are so envious while the catholics go can draw on all these and that the bishop can order these priests to serve. Weve got to beg protestant ministers to serve. If they only have gone to the future. But answer yes. The rosary was wasnt official rosary, but it was probably the chaplain and i think the great you know, he was 19 year old kid who didnt quite figure out who have given, you know, who would you know who is from exactly. A guy in uniform gave it to him the whole fuss. Yeah. Yeah. And chaplains were most of the time were regular uniform with just a little insignia either across or the tablets of the law. And archbishop hannan, Philip Hannan was a chaplain in world war his featured in our road to berlin gallery and he he was a jumping padre. He didnt actually have any combat jobs. He trained as a paratrooper and served with with the airborne on the ground. He wrote a great book. So by that, after buy curts book tonight the the archbishop wore combat boots. Its his memoir. So next question. Dont be shy. Well go back to your left, gentleman. Get your very excellent book outlines the history primarily oriented three religions with growing influence of how would you and yours is history. But im going to ask you to predict what effect that might have on the of the military Services Going forward. Yeah i think world two is a great template. They actually in chaplain school. They do in fact they study World Religions and there are a few i think there are a few muslim troops and. I you know, i was desperate to find more material. There was one letter in fdr library. Someone wrote saying, you know, roosevelt gives for these different holidays. Why cant we have greetings for ramadan . And there was no reply to. But the the military it was quite a remark bold embrace of of of of the tri faith of in commissioning these catholic chaplains. I mean this i think what is so stark, i mean, the 1920s i mean, you have the klan marching, you know, pennsylvania avenue, the klan of the twenties was against and catholics and you here you have that this world where two army with a chief of chaplains who is a Roman Catholic monsignor, all these you know, all these rabbis and priests and i think the is, in fact, finding good chaplains, different faiths in the army, i think has been very good about expanding. The chaplains now have islam chaplains who represent the islamic faith. We have buddhist chaplains. I dont know if theres a hindu chaplain and also the range of grave markers now reflects that religious diversity. And i think. One of the things i think im disappoint where id love to have back though the reasons why i havent is it in World War Two there was a quota system so religious got a quota of chaplains on their share of the population and that has changed and so the chaplaincy is not quite as representative of those who serve in the military and there are pluses and minuses of that. Partly you do want a voluntary arm and you want those who are willing to serve. I but i once was trying to someone at the pool who is studying be a rabbi. You should think of the army as a career path. You know, i wasnt very successful. We have a question from dr. Terry in the front row. Well right with you. Other side can you comment on the supply of chaplains in the service today. The reason i this i was in ramadi in 2007 and it was a marine contingent there and the presented mass at fallujah on sunday and tuesday in ramadi. So i inferred that there was a great chaplaincy shortage. And could you comment on that, please . Yeah, i think there is a theres a shortage. My sense is i know less about the current military, so i want to be a little careful because of the fewer number of Catholic Priests. I think there are fewer chaplains, as are Catholic Churches are struggling to find enough Catholic Priests and and there are fewer rabbis than there were in the know, though there are still some remarkable rabbis that served the one story i would have loved it my there a there was a woman rabbi where first woman rabbis who sadly died prematurely but she just remarkable because she for joined a paratrooper unit and learned how to jump and she she once even berated elie wiesel on some issue she had you know so she could see she seemed remarkably fearless where and this is not typical i think where this is fewer mainline ministers have served the chaplaincy today. I think one of the things i would love is for the chaplaincy to to be as based as the chaplaincy of World War Two or even of the vietnam era. Next questions in the back with john. Hey, kurt, im curious to know about you talk about the development of faith within soldiers and their experiences did you in your studies fine the opposite effect which were soldiers lost their faith as a result of what they witnessed in combat. I mean one of the things i think the one myth i want to dispel and i once a talk and the person still was insisted there are no atheists in foxholes and my evidence for atheists and foxholes chaplains talk about them several in several cases one one Catholic Priest writes, he says, i was trying to minister to these guys on one of the pacific islands. And he said all some of these guys, all they wanted was a cigaret or to be written up for a medal they no use for me otherwise and another guy was trying to give last rites to a guy and the guy was still mad his priest at home and i there were atheists i mean there were the freethinkers wrote to the Roosevelt Administration protest religious symbolism. I look for that i know they were out there the loss of faith. I think the one story was one of the things that ended up on the cutting room floor. I remember interviewing it was the daughter of someone i knew and she said hurts her father on his that told her he was a marine in okinawa. And he said, i lost my faith in okinawa what he said in the incident that that showed it is you know, im on im in a foxhole and i see these two american planes basically into each other. And he thought this random act of destruction for no apparent reason, how could be a god and he and but he never his family until his you know you know until his deathbed and. So it it is there. I mean and, you know, one, one, one marine whos hes highly decorated. Hes at a conference at harvard on religion and the war he says he says one of the things that struck him is some of the most bravest men i knew were freethinkers or or agnostics that their religion does not necessarily make more effective fighters, that there are there are good atheists in combat. So i think that that yes, there are those their faith, the strength in those states are in fact lessened per mike has a question. Yeah so well wrap up that you in your book you cover this kind of outright faith journalism becomes a legacy and the kind of postwar and you know eisenhower and kennedy you know eisenhower actually gets baptized as president kennedys a catholic he gets elected but could could you talk just a little bit about the dorchester so the for those are you out of peak ahead with liberation pavilion is going to feature the uss dorchester and the four chaplains so you know this fall when it opens you can that but tell us a little bit about the dorchester i think thats a pretty neat story but you even bring it the postwar era yeah the dorchester they were actually the first chaplains. Well the for example the first rabbi to die in combat to die in combat was aboard. And so so youre seeking ahead. Youre telling him they died . Yeah. So all the four chaplains died. So there were these four chaplains at its a Catholic Priest from from new jersey, a protestant minister whos whos he is reformed, but his father is a baptist minister, another protestant minister and a jewish. And they they are on board this troop ship. And the ship is is struck by a torpedo. And they very quickly up their their life preservers. They give up their and they go down with the ship. They are seen in the distance praying and picture. And i think it becomes quite symbol, i think because of poling. Whos this . Hes a very Prominent Baptist minister and its a major church periodical. So this story is important, not forgotten. The service of these four chaplains because of dan poling. But it also mean, you know, it is they very much reflect three faith tradition and this and this religious pluralism. Theres a theres a pope, for example by the by early after the war ends are supposed to stand issue two commemorating the service. Their loved ones are theyre given posthumous awards both immediately during the war and then before eisenhower leaves the presidency there are a number of memorials dedicated them though it is interesting about this sort of symbol of religious faith. Dan poling decides, he is going to build a Memorial Chapel at temple at the baptist at what is called the baptist temple. And he wants this to an ecumenical he wants to recreate basically a chapel. He wants to create a nondenominational chapel. And basically it would be a rotating altar. So the altar would you could rotated to have a jewish altar, a catholic altar at a protestant altar. But problem for Roman Catholic is, you know, wartime is one thing to have a non you know, to do a service in a nondenominational chapel in civilian life the only place to do a Catholic Service is in the proper setting, a Catholic Church. So the Catholic Church refuses to endorse this. And fact, kennedy feels he is he is tasked to speak at the Fundraising Service build this Memorial Chapel. He pulls out of the he pulls out of this speaking. And when he runs for president in 1960, dan poling will not let him forget this. And theres quite back and forth in the media and polling who is you know questions whether know who is who is who is kennedy more loyal to the constitution or to or to or to the or to his his religion and and its one of the issues actually what is to be memorial to to religious pluralism, actually divisive because because of i think i think in in fairness to in fairness to the catholic position is, you know, catholic really is pretty, you know, strict on this. And so the the story of the four chaplains is one that should be delighted youre going to be telling. And im still waiting for the steven spielberg. So another one that you for the audience you give us a quick one about the gipper about ronald the 1943 movie. Does everyone that movie, 1943, Ronald Reagan some do but another piece in your that i think some people feel like oh man i never knew that so one of the things thats actually underwritten is Ronald Reagans military career and movie making and that whole unity is no myth. No ones done it. And i literally stumble upon for god and country. It was it was a film. It was basically hollywood short, like a a 30 minute short and. It is centers on the story of three chapels, a a minister and a rabbi who room together and chaplain. And this is actually the case. They actually did do this deliberately is put three faiths together and rather reagan is, in fact, the chaplain who does die in battle in the pacific. And, of course his eulogy is given the rabbi. Its a very informal eulogy because. Theyre under enemy fire, but the eulogy and it is a really is it is i began to understand the appeal of Ronald Reagan mean it is it is it is sappy beyond belief. But it is really it is quite moved because have a voiceover. Ronald reagan 20 intoning the mass. You have the rabbi, you know saying prayers in hebrew. So it really if you want to get a if you dont want to read the book, want the film, see it its on youtube, see for god and country. I thought it was the my my remarkable find that other scholars have missed this evidence right in front of you. Yeah. So a great example right up front of this kind of tried faith, pluralism in action and that, you know, ultimately shape as a legacy. You know, modern america we dont go back to the 1920s. We actually move forward on this and its its a its a Pretty Amazing story. So other questions though i preemptive areas. Okay. Well, thank you to mike and to dr. Kurt piehler a round of applause for tonights speakers