Transcripts For CSPAN3 Chad 20240703

And now i am so pleased to introduce tonights speakers. Chad l williams is the samuel j. And Augusta Spector professor of history and african africanamerican studies at brandeis university. Hes the author, the Award Winning book torchbearers of democracy, africanamerican in the world war one era, and the coeditor of charleston syllabus readings race, racism and racial violence. His writings and op eds have appeared in the atlantic, the washington post, time the conversation, joining him tonight is Henry Louis Gates jr. Alphonse Fletcher University and founding director of the hutchins for african and African American research at Harvard University and emmy peabody Award Winning filmmaker literary journalist, cultural critic and institute and builder. Professor gates, his most recent books are stony the road and the black church. This is our story. This our song. Tonight, they will discuss chads latest book, the wounded world a sweeping story of hope betrayal, disillusionment and transformation and a one of a kind glimpse into how a crucial moment of International Crisis impacted one of the greatest american intellectuals of the 20th century. Robin d. G. Kelley, author of Thelonious Monk the life and times of an american original the wounded world, a genuine masterpiece. Williamss account of dubois to complete his major treatise on black participation in the First World War is a window into the tragedies of industrial scale killing, colonialism and the color line changed. The world and a man we so excited to have them in store tonight. Please join me in welcoming Chad Williams and Henry Louis Gates judy gray. Stay here or. Good evening everyone. All right. Thank you so much for coming out this evening. Its truly an honor. Thank you, everyone. At harvard bookstore, the amazing staff for organizing event. Thank you very much, professor gates, for joining me this evening. Really excited to talk about the book and to engage with all of you about the book as well. I want to spend plenty of time for us to be in conversation with each other. I know professor gates has a long list of questions laid out here for me. I feel like im back in grad school. My general examinations or but first let me say a little bit about the origins of this book. And it really begins with a story and it begins october of 2000. I was a graduate at the time at Princeton University working on my dissertation, which would eventually become my first book. Torchbearers of democracy. And i was on one of my First Research trips to the university of massachusetts amherst, where w. E. B. Dubois is papers are housed, and ive been very responsible in advance and gone through the finding, and i saw reference to. Dubois world war one materials. And i no idea what it was. It sounded intriguing im going to be at umass. I might as well look for so i go to the library, the appropriately named w. E. B. Dubois library. I go to the special Collections Department and ask the librarian i would like to see these dubois one on one materials. I think it might be a folder, maybe a box, if im lucky. I sit down, wait at the table. The librarian returns with six microfilm reels. Wow. So now im really. What could this possibly. So some of you may remember what a microfilm machine like you had a roll load the film and crank the so i put the first reel in and there is a manuscript by w e. B. Dubois on the black in world war one that i knew nothing about the manuscript. I would continue to learn more about 800 pages long. In addition to the actual manuscript, all of duboiss Research Materials and the correspondence related to this project. He gave his book an incredibly evocative title, the black man and the wounded world. So just imagine i am a young bride, had graduate student stumbling an unfinished and unpublished manuscript by the great w. E. B. Dubois. I didnt know what to do with myself. Was stunned. Shocked, but really, more than anything else, i was confused. What this book, why didnt i know anything about . Why had no one written anything about it so mind was racing with questions. So my graduate advisor said, okay, you know, youre going to finish your dissertation, right . So i had to put the brakes on. Know my naive thought of trying to publish dubois as a book for him. But the question surrounding this discovery stage in my mind and ultimately i wanted to tell the story behind this book, this really remarkable story of w. E. B. Dubois, who. 1918 encouraged africanamericans to close ranks to the war to support the allied war effort, put his on the line, made one of the most controversial decisions of his life, of his career and put it his pacifist principles in supporting the war, believing that this would be a moment where africanamericans reconcile the warring ideals of their double consciousness in the throes of warfare and he was wrong. He would come to regret that decision really for the rest of his life. But the opportunity to write about the history of the war offered him a form of atonement as. Well as a type of vindicate action or at least so he believed. He spent 20 years trying to write get funding for and publish the black man and the wounded and ultimately was not successful. So i was fascinated by what this tells us about dubois what this amazing project tells us about his life work, his political evolution. What does it tell us about a man who, as i said in 1918, supported the war, but by 1951, 83 years old, was going be thrown in jail by the federal government for his antiwar activities. How do we explain evolution . How do we explain that . And duboiss remarkable really coincide with him trying to get the black and the wounded world ultimately finished and published. In the end, i was left with this question of failure. What does it mean to think about dubois failing to complete what would have been one of his most significant works of history . And ultimately, what does that tell us about world war one, its significance for africanamericans, for peoples of african descent more broadly but also what does that tell us about the struggles for race and democracy by black people in, the 20th century and beyond . Dubois as i titled his book the black man and the wounded world, and i think dubois was wrestling with an incredibly profound question what does it mean to live in a wounded world, what it mean to live in a world scarred hard by war, by racism and white supremacy, by violence, by economic, by empire those, are incredibly profound and weighty questions that dubois himself even struggled with. And i think theyre questions that were still struggling with today. So hopefully my book offers a glimpse into some of these Big Questions as well as a new way of thinking about the great w. E. B. Dubois. Great people have written. Yeah. Now what, i heard was that when you found the manuscript, you tried to white out dubois. His name and oh is that true to his daughters serious. I cant your question. Dont get me in trouble. There might be lawyers listening, so i dont know anybody who knows any thing at all about the great dubois. The great war. Probably thinks immediately of the piece that, as you mentioned, he wrote for the crisis magazine, which he was the editor, Founding Editor in july 1918 entitled close ranks first. What was dubois arguing, and second, why was he arguing it . And third, why was it controversial at the time and do you think its controversial in retrospect . Wow. So close ranks. Ranks. I would say, is one of duboiss most controversial that that he wrote through july 1918 issue of the crisis. And theres a lot of intrigue surrounding that at the time he was being considered for a captains and c in the military intelligence division. And there was belief that close ranks was written to kind of soothe the waters to make this captaincy offer go over to ease the concerns of white military officials in war department. But i think beyond kind of the larger intrigue is the message in close ranks where he declared that this was the war for democracy that this was going be the Pivotal Moment in the history of modern democracy on a global scale and africanamericans and other of african descent had to do their part and he encouraged africanamericans to set aside their special grievances lynching jim crow economic right put those special aside for time being and support their country ranks with their fellow white americans and the allied nations that are fighting for democracy. And he said we make no ordinary, but we make it gladly and willingly with our eyes lifted to the hills, this illicit a firestorm of controversy. Duboiss harshest critics labeled him a traitor to the race. If you think about who dubois was, someone who committed his life to the service, to the uplift of black people to be called a traitor to the race was probably the worst that you could levy at. I would think. But i think close ranks really gets at the central dilemma that dubois wrestling with in the souls of black folk, and in many of his other writings, this tension being black and being what it means be a patriot, what it means to be loyal to a country that is not loyal to you and dubois believed that the war would be the opportune city for africanamericans to prove their worth as american citizens. Where that tension, that double consciousness, those two unreconciled strive ins would indeed be reconciled and ultimately, as he realized as the legacy of the war unfolded in the immediate aftermath of war and throughout the 1920s and thirties, he that that was the wrong decision to make and he lived with the weight of that decision. I would argue really for the rest of his life. What was the voices really . I remember Woodrow Wilson as the president. Nice things and many scholars think he was the most racist other than the Andrew Johnson and there are a lot of candidates, the most racist for some reason the recent occupants white but what was his relationship with Woodrow Wilson and Woodrow Wilson you have to remember, was a southerner. Woodrow wilson screened birth of a nation arguably still the most racist film ever produced in the United States. What was relationship with Woodrow Wilson . Why in the world did he think that participation in the war, just like frederick argued and so many other black people, if only we show, only we show our patriotism. Yeah, only show our hair. The brass letters of the us on your chest. Thats right. Douglass, youre paraphrasing that was said if a black man where i wish i had the quote, i dont it but all a racist has to see yeah is name of a black man wearing know on bearing arms you know fighting for that will end racism so why in the world did he think this would be different particularly under one of the most racist president who reince who did segregation in federal offices in washington dc and why would dubois lets see. How old is he in 19 eight. Hes between 1868. 50, 50 years old. 51. The last captain was 50 years old. You ran into what was on dubois mind. Why did he want to be a captain of harvard . He wasnt. No, it wasnt wasnt like. So theres a theres a few things. Dubois and woodrow, really fascinating relationship in some ways. Kindred spirits and certainly they come from very backgrounds, very different trajectories. But they were both kind of molded in a moment in the intellectual milieu where democracy was valued. They were both democratic thinkers from their own unique perspectives. They both believed democracy as not just a form of government, but as an ideal as a way of life. Out dubois supported. Woodrow wilson for president in 1912. Again, very put aside his membership in the socialist party and felt that because woodrow was a more educated cult invaded southerner, wasnt rabid white supremacist that would bring a level of civility to to the white house even went so far as say he had the potential to be the next Abraham Lincoln. He was wrong about that decision as well. And very quickly came to to regret it. But both wilson and dubois, two men with huge egos, was two men who believed in the power, their own intellect and capabilities they thought that democracy could be achieved and spread on it on a worldwide scale as a result of the dubois thinking about democracy. See, in the specific context of black people and the broader African Diaspora, Woodrow Wilson, obviously, and more narrowly, but still under this interesting connection between these two men about what democracy at the time in terms of of duboiss belief that world war one could be different. I struggled with this because. On the one hand, youre right. Why he think anything would be different. It seemed just incredibly naive of dubois to believe that war one would be this chance formative moment for democracy and for black people in particular. But keep in mind, dubois was was a historian and he drew from the history of service in the american revolution, in the civil war, especially, that Frederick Douglass he saw war and black military service as an engine of social and political transformation with black soldiers specifically kind of at the tip of the spear. One of the boys, his closest friends who i talk about in the book was colonel young, colonel charles. I think about colin powell before. There was colin powell, right . He was the most esteemed, the most decorated black military figure in, the country he was one of the boys is closest black friends. They went way back all the way back to wilberforce. And Charles Young was someone who loved his country right, who believed that it was possible to be both loyal to your country, to serve your country, also be loyal to your race, to serve your race. So he was looking at individuals like Charles Young as kind of emblem of the possibilities of what the war could do for black people. And theres a lot of tragedy surrounding Charles Young as well as as i talk about in the book, which ultimately adds duboiss disillusionment after the war and belief certainly by the mid 1920s and into the 1930s that the war indeed was a complete tragedy and a failure, champ explained both and very few people here are since world war one, right when i was 19, at the end of my sophomore year at yale, i took a gap on a program funded by the carnegie corporations called five year b. A. So every year, 12 kids at yale in sophomore year, at the end of your sophomore year, you would be chosen. Youd have to. The one proviso was that you had to work in what we use the third world and i was premed like every smart little black i knew right . So i went and my fathers family were. And so through the anglican communion, as it was called, the diocese, West Virginia Sister Diocese was at the time called the diocese of central tanganyika. So i got job working at an Anglican Mission hospital. 4 hours into the bush from dodoma capital of tanzania and it had been a german for it. And lived in the german prison. I mean, they were five european missionaries there, and then they put there, they were all women, so they me, you know, isolated in what was the german prison . Just just across the sort of yard. And then the outskirts was a cemetery and it was the war did of german soldiers talk about helping understand the role of africa and. The boys wrote brilliantly about the role of africa in world war one, when he was deconstructing the reasons for the war can. You explain that a little bit. Sure, dubois wrote. What i think is one of the most brilliant articles, quite possibly in the 20th century in the Atlantic Monthly in 1915, titled the african roots of the war. And in this article he identified he pinpointed the origins of the war in the imperial copper amongst the different european belligerents for control of africa and its resources, both human and material. And it was these rivalries, these colonial rivalries which eventually came such a fever pitch that war exploded in europe. It was an incredibly brilliant analysis, far ahead of its its time and its analysis. And its an that he really carried forward through his attempting to write the black man and wounded worlds definitive history of of the war. So from start he saw the connections between the war and africa as well as African Peoples of african descent throughout the diaspora. More broadly in the book he tried to write, he actually devotes several chapters to talking about the impact of the war on the African Diaspora the transformations in panafrican and diasporic as a result of war. Keep in mind that in 1919 he travels france to conduct research for his book, but he also organizes a landmark Panafrican Congress. So hes thinking about the panafrican dimensions of the war, how this was really remarkable moment kind of in the genesis of a of a panafrican consciousness. But he also writes about the experiences of african troops in the french military, as well as in the british. He envisioned writing the chapter about other african, possibly in the german militarys and other places. So he has a very kind of global but but specifically african diasporic conceptualization of the war, which is attempting to articulate in in his book but also in his politics his Global Politics as well who who opposed them, who were dominant voices, other than dubois in this debate. Within, uh, within Community Bring that debate to life, perhaps bring that to debate to life. So i think that, you know, theres some misconception that all africanamericans where were gung ho about the war that some ways dubois is close ranks editorials emblematic of a black opinion and thats thats really not the case. I would argue that the majority of africanamericans were largely apathetic about the war. They realized, okay, we to get mixed up in this mess, all these white folks, but were going to do our duty nevertheless. If you have a small segment of the africanamerican community, largely on the far left, who are explicitly opposed to the war. So individuals like Philip Randolph can their own of the socialist party, who founded the messenger magazine . You have someone like hubert harrison, a brilliant. Brilliant caribbean editor, a political activist. So you have a small but, very vibrant, very vocal community of black radicals who are explicitly opposed to the war and also opposed to the position that dubois ultimately takes his close ranks editorial and belief that africanamerican fans needed to have a first fight for their country before they for their rights in some ways, men like Chan Chandler own Philip Randolph are anticipating the Double V Campaign that comes to fruition by World War Two by the 1940s. So dubois victory over fascism abroad victory, over racism at home . Absolutely. So you have African Americans by World War Two, really kind of learning from the mistakes of world war one and learning from the mistakes of dubois in the position that that he took. How about trotter. Women . Trotter yeah an amazing figure, a tragic figure. Also, he was one of the voices close friends, colleagues cofounded the Niagara Movement together. He was he was boston through and through. They parted ways. Trotter uncompromising in his to fighting jim crow and Racial Discrimination dubois took a different route with the but really their relationship i think came to a head or nadir you might say during world war one and with the closed ranks editorial war where William Monroe trotter was one of those voices who flat called dubois a traitor to the race, labeling him as a failed leader. I believe in that. We had anointed you to be the uncommon amazing spokesperson for the race. And now you have failed us and their relationship recovered after that. Charter of five handicap for harvard. No, harvard man. Like, yeah, like a dubois from a prominent black family, a brilliant man and the editor, publisher of his own newspaper, regarded him and he had a tragic it the cause of his death was indeterminate but some people think he committed suicide and other people think he fell off a roof. But but its a very sad story. A genius. Yeah, absolutely. But he and dubois was it. There was no. When you think about the role of black soldiers in the civil war, we tend to forget why abraham was assassinated. There were 200,000 black men who fought in the army and the navy during civil war. Right. And. 100. Probably 150,000 of them. More or less, were enslaved in 1960, in 1860, when the war broke out because there were 3. 9 million enslaved African Americans. There were 488,000 free black people, 222,000 lived in the north, 262,000. This is counterintuitive to what, more free black people lived in the states. It became the confederacy in 1860. Then then lived in the free north. So if you do the math, where are you going to get those two 200,000 troops from you . Didnt get it from the Free Community in the north. Right. These were black people who were liberated by the union army because of the emancipation proclamation and they fought. So abraham, in his last speech he gives at the white house, says he praises black warriors, and he says that their service was so noble that he decided that he wants to give certain black men the right to vote. Now, black men naturally got the right to vote with the ratification of the 15th amendment, which is april 1870, in 1860, black men could only vote in five of the six in new england states, not in connecticut connecticut and in the state of new york. If you satisfy. A 250 property requirement. So getting the ballot was a big deal even in the north. So lincoln is giving his speech on at the white house and he said he had decided to allow certain black people to vote his. 200,000 black warriors and says the very intelligent i always wonder if ive been in group jack would you you and i have made the cut. We made our way in there. Whos listening . The speech. John wilkes booth. Yeah, it was such a radical thing. John wilkes booth, purportedly turned to somebody standing next to him and say thats it. Im going to run him through. And then some other choice words, supposedly to then a few days later, he kills them. So if youre dubois thinking, wow, the sacrifice service of black men persuaded lincoln, you know who his difficulties. But he never had difficulty slavery. He had difficulties with black people. He used the nword and somebody he you know came along and his relationship with Frederick Douglass written about by david blight John Stauffer so dubois could look back and say wow, this moved Abraham Lincoln to embrace the right to vote for the black troops. Plus these, you know, whoever very intelligent were. So make the case. Did what did dubois have grounds to make this argument how do you come you have the the advantage of hindsight right but youre dubois since 1918 make the case. This is our country this is our country we built this country we fought for this country. We have fought for this country. America would not be without us and for reason it is our obligation to fight for america, not for the america that has been, not for the america that is, but for america that we want it to be. My channeling. Dubois good enough. There. Yeah. I think he would Say Something like he have grounds. Do you think . I mean could you, can make the case that there was to his support the war. I think you can i think for for reasons that you just laid out the historical precedent that dubois again a student of history, a student of the civil war, a of of reconstruction really fascinating connection between his world war one book and his magnum opus, black reconstruction. So he is thinking about these historical precedents and part of it, i think, is dubois historic all imagination his his belief that the service of black would indeed be enough to to shape history itself and again. I think its easy to to see dubois kind of naive in those those hopes, those those aspirations. But they were genuine. They were were genuine on his part and genuine on the part. Many other africanamericans, some of whom he was, was very close to. So i think we do is as difficult as it as it may seem, as difficult as it as it as it feels in 2023 to really take the boys seriously in this moment, to take other africanamericans seriously in, this moment where it felt like the world was on the cusp of of of revolutionary change and black people had the potential to be at the at the center of that. But really, these are questions that were still grappling with today. What does it mean to a patriot . What does it mean to as black person, to serve in the military, fight for your country there . Africanamericans in in the armed forces who are still, you know, reckoning with the same challenges that black soldiers faced in in 1918. Absolutely. Some 2. 3 million black men registered for the draft in world war one. And about 375,000 actually served. And far fewer, of course, saw combat because of the insidious nature of jim crow america at the time, even. I mean, my father was in World War Two. He was drafted he was a quartermaster camp and we were in world war one. You were in quartermaster. Camp was quartermaster. You cleaning, cooking, servicing, removing dead, you know, doing all the kinds of work that black people were were relegated to doing outside of the the in broader american society. Can you talk about the betrayal of black soldiers during and after the war and how dubois reckoned with events as they unfolded in real time and . Im thinking, for example of e. S. Lewis houston and of course, the red summer of 1919. Right so the boys the start the United States enters the in april of 1917 and dubois makes it clear that africanamericans need to support the war and they need to put their lives the line if necessary his really kind of big controversial decision is supporting a segregated Training Camp for black officer candidates. The military agreed the creation of a allblack Training Camp for black officers were going to be duboiss kind of shining examples of talented leadership in manhood on the battlefield. Would they establish a segregated camp in fort des moines, iowa . So from the start of the war, hes hes going to intimately connected to the service of black soldiers officers in particular, many of whom he knew personally some were were close friends. So i think its really important. Keep in mind just how close, loosely connected dubois is to the war as its unfolding its history, which is one of the reasons why he founded so incredibly difficult, incredibly to to write about. But he has to reckon essay lewis and and houston as i talk about in the book the east lewis program in july of 1917 three, hundreds of africanamerican being being slaughtered just the following month in august of 1917, black soldiers, part of the 24th infantry, one of the regiments of the buffalo soldiers, engaged in a shootout in houston, texas, which leaves 17 people dead. So really the worst nightmares of white southerners. You have black soldiers shooting up a city in south. So dubois is in the midst of all of these all of these upheavals. And that continues after the war. He actually goes france with interesting story that i chronicle in the book about how he he gets there but he goes to france and he talks to black soldiers and officers on the western front he hears directly from their mouths the discriminate that they faced, the horrific discrimination that black officers in particular faced and stunned. Hes shot by the stories that he hears. And he brings that back to the United States with him. He publishes his findings in in the crisis while at the same time that summer. Racial violence is exploding all over the country in washington, dc. Black literally being attacked, killed in front of the white house in chicago. So in in arkansas you have the number of lynchings skyrocketing black veterans being lynched in uniform. Right. This was what james weldon johnson, acp colleague, described as the summer of 1919. So this is the beginnings of dubois his shock about, the war itself. Right. This war that he invested so much hope and belief in only to come back to. These horrific reminders about the resiliency of white supremacy. And he reckons and tries to wrestle with that disillusionment throughout the postwar period. What is it about world war one, by the way when i was a kid im eight was a big deal and we had to go it was a holiday and we would go to the colored cemetery and put little wooden or yeah, puppies poppies, but id wear and they put a wreath on, you know, all the, the everybody in our family said it was dead. Took me a while to figure out who died in the civil war. We died in world war or spanishamerican war, but it was a big it was a big deal. What is it about world war one that seems to be a calling to us today . Its interesting that your book is coming out just a few months after adam hawk shields american midnight, the great war, a Violent Peace and democracy, a forgotten crisis. And theres beverly. Fascinating biog. Raphe of j. Edgar hoover, gman. And of course, hoover was ascendant in this era. Yeah. So what does . Setting the boys of world war one open up for us and where do you see your book entering, the broader conversation going on. In our country today about . The great war and its echoes today. What is, you know works you find an 100 years ago and use it as a mirror as analogous to tell an allegorical story about whats happening today right . Yeah i think thats a great question. Thank you for that. I think in a lot of ways, were living with the legacies of world war one when we think about, as i said earlier, what it means to live in wounded world where war is still an ongoing, where the threat of ongoing war continues to loom, still reckoning with the very real legacies of white supremacy, white supremacy, reckoning with really the the failures of democracy itself. In some ways i think thats thats really why world war one as as a moment, i think, continues to resonate, because this moment where people the time believed democracy was going to be remade on a global scale, we are still trying to make democracy reality in this this this country. And these are the issues that the boys was was reckoning with. And i think theres still the issues that were reckoning with today. So we can look at someone like boys and in some ways to take comfort from his struggles, his his commitment, his perseverance to try and address these issues, which shaped his life in times and continue to to shape ours today. How can you could you compare and contrast for us Woodrow Wilsons International Wisdom with duboiss internationalism. It was a compare and contrast thing they got here again i think its its a fascinating someone should write a book comparing two boys and Woodrow Wilson at work man. Oh no no. The boys took all the energy out of me. He just tired, right up. But i think they both certainly had very broad, ambitious, internationalist visions. And its fascinating. Theyre both in paris at the same time. I after the armistice, dubois goes to france on the press ship accompanying woodrow and his delegation to the peace proceedings in france, Woodrow Wilson arrives just a few weeks later after dubois. So theyre in paris, theyre in kind of at this moment where the world going to be remade. Woodrow wilson, hes thinking narrowly about his international is vision. Youre really putting the United States at the center of creating the league of nations really of oblivious to the global complexities, you know, particularly in europe and. You know, how the interests of france and Great Britain and some of the other nations really didnt align with his internationalist vision. So hes very kind of narrow minded, very stubborn, and in a lot ways, duboiss International Vision was panafrican in scope. As i said, he organizes a landmark Panafrican Congress in 1919, actually the second Panafrican Congress. He is a part of an organized and subsequent Panafrican Congress is in 1921, 1923, 1925. So continuing to push for people of african to come together to address their common struggles and to think about how the world can ultimately be remade absent of empire and colonial exploitation, really laying the groundwork, argue for the independence movements, the panafrican movements, anticolonial movements in the 1940s and in 1950s. But it would sudan becomes 56, gone in seven. So it would take 40 years. Do you do you think dubois, the antithesis, the what was it about the success of the war that led dubois to think that these european colonial would say, oh, yeah, were going to give up all our we they just fought a over all these gold and, aluminum and uranium and whatever, right . And cocoa and what why would dubois think that they were going to give up all this power and resources and let people of color the worlds of color, as dubois put it, emerges as free and equal. Yeah. Again, i think this is the the optimists in the boys visionary the the romantic in in the boys he he wanted to believe that the impossible was possible. And again, i think this is really trying to take dubois seriously as as democratic thinker. You know what it would mean . Create a new International Order where germanys former colonies administered by international body, where the educated, quote unquote, civilized peoples in africa would have rights to to land ownership, etc. , etc. Dubois was very elitist in his internationalism, his his panafricanism. But again, he he genuinely believed this. And i think this is ultimately why it was so difficult for him to make sense of war and to ultimately write about its history, a history he was so intimately connected to that he was invested in only to see those those and aspirations not materialize. And ultimately, i think thats one of the major reasons why he wasnt able to finish his book that he wasnt able to fully reckon with the failures of world war one as a historical moment but also his own failures in supporting it. What what im curious what surprised you most what did you learn having written the book that you didnt know and what surprised you the most. I what surprised me the most was . How you know, for lack of a better word obsessed dubois was with writing what he believed would be the definitive history of the war he begins work on this project in october 1918. Right right before. The end of world war one. Right on the eve of of the armistice, he comes to the regretful conclusion that hes not going to finish his in 1940. So were talking about over two decades that he is writing that he is asking publishers and foundations to support his work that hes thinking about what this history means and how it how it evolves over a two decade period from one world war to the next. So its really the incredible span the life of of this project and dubois is reckoning it which which really surprised me the manuscript itself is fascinating some of the chapters are quintessentially dubois sing with his his voice his prose others partially written others are not written at all. Others a jumbled mess. So really a fascinating look at dubois kind of in progress of really through his his own understanding of the war and how that evolves over over time. So the archive was really one of the most revealing aspects of of this this project. And then dubois himself. Dubois is such a towering figure as as you know, i mean, youve written dubois and we kind think of him as in some ways kind of unable to do no wrong, right. But he made a lot of mistakes, right . He made a lot of mistakes along the way. And to be able to see dubois fail to be able to humanize him, i think incredibly powerful and revealing as i was working the book. Well, lets lets talk about that in the prolog to your lovely prolog, which is set in brooklyn in the year 1957, you write about dubois is famous final message to the world, which to be sealed and then read after his death which it was what did it say and what was your inspiration for starting the book there. You know its such a lovely concise statement that he he puts together and i think what found interesting about the moment that he writes his his final message to the world this is in 1957, the night before had just eulogized james ford, who was a wellknown communist african communist organizer, but a veteran of world war one. And it just me think, you know, what does it mean for dubois . Think about his life, his legacy works that hes leaving behind at this moment. This moment where he is really kind of persona non grata because of his political beliefs, his affiliations with with the left, what that says about really dubois is remarkable evolution journey from in 1918 encouraging africanamericans close ranks to fight for their country, too. Sitting in his brooklyn home alone, writing his message to the world, it just like a really powerful moment to kind of circle back which i do at the end of the book can someone in some ways kind of foreshadow where were going with the story . Can you read his message to the world . Sure. I love to. I cant believe just open the book to it. Thats a mans his own book memorized. But i do. Yeah. Been working on this thing for a while. So dubois, as he writes his final message to the world in his brooklyn home that he shares with his wife, shirley gamm dubois tells her to seal in an envelope only open until im gone. So at his funeral in ghana in 1963, august of 1963, the canadian ambassador just before Army Officers lowered the bronze into the ground where, brief and poignant. Dubois, his last words, it is much more in theory than actually to say the last goodbye to friends and loved ones and to all the familiar things of this life. Im going to take a long, deep and endless sleep. This is not a punishment, but a privilege to which i have looked forward four long years. Ive loved my work. Ive people and my play, but always i have been uplifted by the thought that what i have done well will live long and justify by my life, that what i have done ill or never finished can now be handed to others for endless days to be finished while i rest. And that peace will be my applause one thing alone i charge you live and believe life always beings will live and progress a greater, broader and fuller life the only death is to lose belief in this truth, simply because this greater end comes slowly just because time is long. Goodbye goodbye, ladies and gentlemen. Lets give it up so. And you know, you finish this book you did you finish this book a way that he couldnt anticipate. I hope that hes proud of me somewhere and not too mad at me. He will say, im sure we have some time for questions. Right. So questions, no speeches, but questions, please. Yes. Could you send could you identify yourselves . I have found that that controls the discourse. People are not anonymous. Go ahead. I think somebody. Wonderful, wonderful. Thought you had been waiting for this. Im on a chapter on wilson and. And two boys and ill make the connections because im from haiti 1915. The us occupies haiti july 1915, three months after birth of the nation was shown at the white house and so im wondering in terms of i mean, of course in the germans presence in the caribbean as well in which serve as an excuse the occupation. Right. The expansion of germany and the caribbean. So im wondering whether there is a kind of conundrum or paradox, the notions of democracy that. Perhaps the boy is thinking about democracy, capital d and wilson is thinking about democracy capital. I mean, its minuscule d, right . There is this kind of paradox, but at the same time, james Weldon Jensen knew because he in a sense defended haiti. Yes, but he knew that the u. S. Was interested in democracy. In that democracy, as far as a country like haiti and perhaps would have to be gotten by themselves and not through another imperialistic ignorance. So why is it that dubois i mean, thats part of my work, that dubois was a bit naive right in that sense. Yeah, i think its a a great question and thank you patrick for, for being a great see you. I think dubois as you said believed in democracy he believed in the exceptionalism of american democracy and its ability be exported across the world. In some ways, he was a product of of american empire, as we all are. Right. You know, he believed that america can bring uplift and and democracy on a to the backwards peoples of of haiti. But again, i mean this became, you one of the the long list of of the wilson administrated Wilson Administrations across is when it came to two black people the haitian occupation was horrific, exploitative and i think dubois would again come to to regret his decision to to to support the United States and the Wilson Administration in this way. Brandon byrd has a has a great book on on africanamericans haiti, which i would definitely recommend. But again, the intersections, dubois and wilson, i think are quite fascinating. Well, as very problematic as. Yeah, next question. Yes. Oh, yeah. Hi, my names suzanna siegel. Youve talked about the transformation in duboiss thought in his coming to change your mind about supported the war. And im wondering what you think about transformations in his thought is this the sort of the the biggest one the major one. And if there are others, or are they interrelated . You say that theres a sort of Global Change of perspective in his views about about politics, about the u. S. , about the u. S. And in the global role. And how are they interrelated or is this sort of the main voice change his mind so much, but he canceled himself. Thats i mean, you name it, he was everything he lived 95 years. Yeah. I mean, i thats important to keep in mind. I got kicked. Of the again and some people dont like that out of the way acp which he helped back to found twice for two completely different ideological right right yeah i mean dubois evolve. Words in a really really every way shape or form over the long span of his his life. You know his political beliefs, his kind of evolution or or move towards, you know, a belief in revolutionary marxism, his views on women and womens rights evolve, know certainly his economic politics. You know, he would come to even kind question his, you know, kind of talent in 10th framework so his class orientation evolved but i think just for the purposes of of my book i really just interested in this really remarkable transformation he has from being pro a war in 1918 to being in literally the federal government. It puts him on trial in 51. Hes 83 years old. Right. And faced with with imprisonment because, you know, hes suspected of or charged with being an agent, a foreign principal, for being part of this anti war, this short lived antiwar organization, nuclear antinuke. Right. Right. So hes at forefront of the Peace Movement in the aftermath of World War Two. And at the height of, the cold war, red scare. So, you know, just how he really puts his own credibility, puts his literally put his his life on the line for his antiwar beliefs, i think is really one of the most kind of remarkable transformations in his life. His working on on this book made you more hopeful or unhelpful about where we ourselves today. You you always get there after you ask these questions, right . Thats people. Ive been here 32 years. I know these people. I know what kind of questions are coming coming. You know, i think that. You even when dubois was leaving in the United States, in in 61, when he turned his back on the united, at least physically, he he relocate to ghana to live out his final years joins the communist party. Hes still hopeful he still has belief in the potential of america that yes, america has failed. America has failed him. But he Still Believes that america has something to offer to the world. I mean, hes hes thankful for america. For what it had given him while still being critical a of american in some ways he saw that kind of as the highest form of patriotism. Right being able to to criticize your country while still seeing the hope in it. So i think we to remain hopeful. I paraphrase james baldwin, one of my my great heroes. He has this incredible he says that and im paraphrasing i have to be optimist because im alive now. Right to to give up on on life means that life is not worth living. So i think we have to continue to hope, continue to to be optimists. As challenging as it is. Ladies and gentlemen i think i can can we get one more question what should congratulate on the book ted in, your first book you give us a marvelous portrait of African American soldiers here in europe and so on. And i wondered if when you were working on this book, you saw things about project differently. Yeah, i was i was curious about yeah, i think congratulations on your recently published book. I think that i probably would not have been able to write book without doing my, my first book to be able to understand the history of, the war, the history of afroamerican soldiers and veterans in the war. And to begin to think about duboiss place in that that history, you know, which i touch upon a little and torchbearers of democracy, see. But i always knew in the back of my head that this was the book that i ultimately to write. I had no idea what it would look like. I certainly had no it would take as long as it did to finish it. But i certainly do think that, you know, writing torch bearers of democracy, me, the foundation as well as the confidence to try and tackle dubois and this kind of sweeping history that hes a part of. So can finally whats next . What do you what do you work dubois and what were two the voice of the korean war i yeah right well theres certainly a lot more dubois to be written and you know, i hope that this this book will continue to inspire other other scholars to explore all aspects of dubois. His work still thinking about future project. But i know dubois is always going to be in there somewhere. Well, i hope i hope that your Research Writing will bring you to four to a fellowship at the dubois institute. Youll be welcome. Any time, ladies. You have to get up at Chad Williams. Thank you so,mitchell