The fdr president ial library museum. And today im very pleased to welcome harvey kaye an emeritus professor of democracy and justice at university of wisconsin at green bay. Hes old friend here at the library, spoken before. We always love to have him welcome back. Harvey, thank you. It is such pleasure. And its and im going to now make clear to everyone. Congratulations, bill becoming the director. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Its an honor. And today, of course, weve got a wonderful to talk about your book on the four freedoms and four freedoms are ever relevant or should be ever, because even more sort of something thats aspiration. While we would hope that their bedrock what we do every day and how we think about what we do. So i always like to ask this question just to sort what what brought you or do you want to talk about four freedoms in relationship to the past enter today sorry and hope i dont take too much time explaining this because theres actually a bit of a story behind it. I grew up in a fdr democratic household, so there was no question about how the family felt about. Franklin roosevelt but what . But my first major work in history, because i trained actually different fields in American History, but my work was on thomas paine and i what i did was, i told the story of Thomas Paines life and labors and then basically retold the american story through thomas paine as as the legacy of thomas paine. And when i got to the roosevelt, the thing that really struck me because this is important, everyone had assumed that thomas paine had been forgotten in American History everyone had assumed that conservatives and reactionary of all sorts had suppressed thomas memory. And then there i was in the forties. Okay, the thirties, actually in the late thirties. And first of all, Eleanor Roosevelt in a very, very small but important book, the moral basis of democracy, dedicated more pages to to discussing thomas paine on questions like freedom, worship, freedom of religion, freedom and democracy than she did to anyone else and for anyone else in the book and, of course, i went through commie call me crazy. But the old fdr speeches, i was looking for some kind of acknowledgment on his part. And what was strike going was that on the washingtons birthday weekend of 1942, when fdr was going to explain to americans that indeed we were capable of global two front war and he had everyone get maps to see what that entailed. He opens that fireside chat on that washingtons birthday weekend, recalling washingtons retreat across new jersey to the delaware. And he then reviews the state of american the trials and tribulations of macarthur in the philippines. I mean, he really covers all the bases to get americans ready for a serious long term quite long possibly war effort but he closes that fireside chat with an amazing set of remarks. He basically he starts quoting Thomas Paines famous lines from, the first of the american crisis papers. These are the times that try mens souls. And he quotes it at length. And basically, to paraphrase fdr, he said, paine spoke for us. Then paine speaks for us now because paine promised that the victory would the triumph ultimately be, you know, this great moment. And so i wow. Heres fdr. So i paid all the more attention to fdr speeches in the wake of doing that, doing that, that thomas paine and the promise of america. And i had an original first idea was i was going to write on the economy bill of rights speech of. January 1944 because i thought it was imperative for americans to be aware of that speech the populace ready of those ideas and of course how it had come to be suppressed in ensuing years. But just around the time a professor who ended up harvard, a law professor, cass sunstein, brought out a book on the second bill of rights from a legal perspective. And i thought, oh, i dont want to look like im piggybacking. Cass sunstein and i talked to my editor. And he says, well, lets go bigger. It says, think about going bigger. So as i backed away and i looked at the trajectory, fdr, his work, i saw as i maybe get to talk later he opens his one of his big Campaign Speeches in 1932 after hes won the nomination is calling for an economic declaration of rights. And then of course in january 41, he gives the speech, which is essentially the call to arms for americans, even though the war our involvement in the war directly would occur until december 7th of that year. But that speech that he delivers that state of the Union Message of january 41, close is is on the four freedoms. And i thought wow it all hangs on the freedoms. Okay both in terms of americas purpose and promise and moreover in terms of americas if you like responsibility. And so it was that moment where i said my editor, you know what . I really like to work on as some in some ways to honor my parents generation is, fdr, the greatest generation. And i want to frame in terms of the four frames. And as i went through work on that, i mean, i took several to do it. What struck me is, despite everyones claims that americans tell you what the four freedoms were during the war, and ive had a lot of arguments about that it was striking the degree to which the four freedoms not only became a slogan. Okay for you know a war bond drive and and any number of speeches but indeed theyd actually the definition of that generation. When you think about the generation of the depression, the war and then and everyone thinks my generation for the sixties but actually its that generation which was which elected liberals to office literally veterans of the depression and World War Two into congress and the and what Lyndon Johnson pursue is basically in terms of the great society, the war on poverty, a further extension and not mention Immigration Reform. Okay. Medicare and medicaid in many ways. But the story roosevelt and Arthur Schlesinger jr himself talked about the long age great age of roosevelt really does extend. From 30 to 33 all the way through. And i see the four freedoms as the spirit of that generation, the ethos of that generation. Its interesting that you should mention the very fact or not the fact, but the discussion thats had about whether americans know the individual. Four freedoms, freedom of speech, freedom from want and, freedom from fear. But in some ways i find interesting about them and then when one thinks about the generation and this moment in january 1941, this kind of transition from one sort of approach to another focus is that theres there is overlap within them. So that one is in a related with the other, it a related with the other. And so in some ways it is important to know the different ones, but at the same time all build upon each other as and there itself, there theyre less powerful without the others together with them right. Think about it because i think about africanamericans in the south whose rights being suppressed ever since the postreconstruction era. Okay the idea of freedom of speech and expression was intimately linked to freedom from fear. Yeah right. Thats right given given the muggings of elderly, you know, men and women on the streets of places like and brooklyn and elsewhere by. Really reactionary sort of almost well, hitlerian kind of in america. Okay. Mean freedom of worship may have been the case, but that freedom of worship beyond a synagogue, a temple. Thats right. Was whole idea of freedom from fear to to be able to walk the street kind of of freedom. So, yeah, theyre absolutely very intimately connected. And the other thing id say, and this was also very striking to me, i did i when i get into a subject, i just dig. And it was it was really well, it really was amazing that when you looked at it from the Vantage Point of, the generation that heard that speech, whether they were in their sixties and seventies or younger, when they heard fdr, his words were, we shouldnt assume they that what fdr said exactly was what ended up being in their memory banks. So and i mean by that is that most people when asked about the for even if they could name them individually they could actually speak to number one. Yes and other thing was that they heard that speech not in the global terms. Fdr wanted them to hear it. They heard about it in terms of, well, weve through the new deal and new deal is not going to stop. Okay. We are going to extend the rights of people by way of industrial, the National Labor relations act. We are going to make sure that all faiths are honored in their respective ways, that immigrants themselves will be understood as american as anyone else, whether you know, native born or newly arrived. And indeed, and to take even further that freedom from want which new deal spoke directly to that, they would continue to pursue it, which would literally at some point leap, leap to the economic bill of and that freedom from fear. I mean, americans actually said that they heard it in those terms and the polling groups that followed up on these things, they were convinced americans. They wanted at all. Okay, this is before for the economic bill of rights. So is its its not though its a a its a political expression in that sense of programs that can advance a certain set of ideals, lets say our principles. But right. It it it is beyond politics. Those notions, its how you achieve them or how you move forward may have a political solution. Right. All that. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. So lets go back. Lets go back and think about fdr and how he got to january 1941. Lets go back to, you know, im struck by Herbert Hoover him a radical because as the scion of an old family democrat though may be he was certainly man of the establishment. Absolutely. Completely. And his wife also the the niece of a republican president. Right. So to whom fdr was a cousin, i mean. Yes. So so he embodies the establishment. And yet a radical. Well, hes everything to everybody in a way. Hes a communist hes a socialist. Hes whatever youre afraid of when it comes to change, isnt he . Yes, but heres what. But fdr, in his own, he feared something more significant. Okay, say so. Fdr, you. Hes born in the late 19th century, born in the middle of the gilded age. And and he grows up in a in a in a in a political and economic order, in which, you know, the expression rich are getting richer and working people are barely holding their own and many are enduring. Okay, its an in which if you talk to the foremost of his day, William Graham sumner, yale, its you know, its an age social darwinism. What do classes owe each other they owe nothing to each. Whats the role of government to be . The role of government is to protect property and the capacity to own all the more property. I mean its its everything we think of as reactionary and was the prevailing political and order now there were challenges there the populists in out here in the midwest there were the progressives in major urban centers. There were, of course, also the socialists who a rising force and in fact, in 1912, when Teddy Roosevelt was one of the four candidates for president , it was said that at least three of the four, four candidates were truly progressive in some way. Now, fdr was growing up in this in these circumstances, somehow or other, long before and i take nothing away from frances perkins, woman who knew fdr you know extremely well but makes it out as if fdr doesnt really become Democrat Small d the sympathetic, you know, of humanistic democrat until the until the twenties, when enduring suffering polio. And hes educated by eleanor the people she introduces to to find out more about working class life. So on fdr from the very beginning. King is has is been questioning and even trying to find a way to act politically that he would not be taken a socialist necessarily. And so, for example, in 1912, when gives a speech at the Peoples Forum actually talks about well look were pretty much effectively achieve liberty. The individual obviously something of an exaggeration. But the trick is, he says how can we pursue liberty of the community was looking how how and this is the key thing how create a force that would keep the robber and their ilk from getting ewing to prevent americans to deny americans the majority of americans from enjoying or at least having the chance to enjoy the promise made in the declaration and the constitution, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and a government of we the people. He is even as young man is twenties and thirties however he may not be a deep intellect, you know, he by no means, but he was seriously thinking through these political questions and he comes in 19 well, in 1910, entering the new york state senate, he becomes an hes aligned with the progressives. And that is the and identified. I mean hes got to kind of mentors in that respect hes got Woodrow Wilson who wins the presidency in 1912 a progressive democrat and hes got his own cousin and his wifes uncle who is related to all the more theodore roosevelt, a progressive republican. Now, this is the interesting he through these years in speeches as revealing his small d democratic instincts and. I wont go through all those speeches after world war one and many people had many of the progressives lined up with wilson during. The war people had believed there would be a furtherance of the progressive politics, progressive legislation to to tame control the, if you like, the gri, the selfishness, the corruption, the violence inducing power of that class of corporate bosses, that emerged during the late 19th century. However, its an age of reaction. The 1920s, and we often get message. We often get the wrong view of the twenties by way of films and things, because its the roaring twenties. Most people dont realize that working people, urban and rural alike, actually suffered a decline in their income. They, they, they they the farmers barely recovered from the recession following world war one. And people, the only way they sustained the Household Income that they they had was by way of both members of the family going out to work. Now, in this moment. Fdr has endured suffered the polio. Fdr starts to develop a new politics he doesnt leave behind progressivism. Progressivism is a is a force pursuing fdr wants to go further. This is where perkins really onto something and that is he becomes all more humane and eleanor has introduced to socialist jewish Women Organizers in new york city labor organizers and he comes to see that government that to harness the powers democratic government is not merely a matter then reforming the gilded age or reforming industrial. Its also a matter of those who are without. This is the liberalism that is cultivating during the 1920s, but heres the thing he. By the time of 1929, he and then 30, he realizes that its that gilded age capitalism and those the class longer necessarily call the robber barons. But the foremost richest men. And women in america who are really responsible for the great depression, the crash, the great depression. And he is beginning to see in part by education, in part by eleanors influence, in part literally by the whom hes interacted with, when hes assistant secretary of the navy during the First World War when hes literally meeting the Women Organizers that eleanor introduced him to, he realizes that you of go beyond just liberalism. This is where and he never use the term he a social democrat his campaign in the spring of of 1932 in which too many historians have dismiss listed as not wellplanned and well really have missed the boat. It is an agenda for social democracy and if you read his speeches during there that year he is definitely looking not only to uplift his looking, empower working people. And in fact, in 1930 he told a good friend in a letter, i can prove it. I got it up here on my wall here. He tells a friend, i think its time for this country to go fairly for at least a generation. Now, hoover didnt know of that letter, but hoover knew full well what fdr was saying on the campaign, in pursuit of the democratic nomination, and then he drives it home. Fdr, of course, in that speech of his that acceptance speech is important at acceptance speeches, promise of a new deal, he takes this agenda. Hes laid out and he promises a deal. Moreover im pretty sure its in that speech he actually says that he laws are not a perfect nature they basically they are humanly created that is one of the most radical statements of the modern age this kind of thing it almost expect to hear from the likes of. Karl marx okay. So hoovers in one way how does he come judge him as a radical . The guys from, as you know, very privileged background. Our our man, fdr. But in many ways, hoover saw a lot of people may not have seen that he was confronted politically by a radical who was to literally bring an end to the gilded age order the gilded age political and economic order. And he was going do it not only by harnessing the powers of democratic government, but he was going to engage americans in it, harnessing that power and empowering them to do so at i mean, ive come away, you know, little by little, i came to the conclusion that fdr was a radical. Okay, maybe not in the same sense as, you know, the standard radical who who buys into a particular political orthodoxy or a political creed, fdr is a radical because his understanding American History makes him a radical. And anything that would obstruct the promise of founding needed be confronted, challenged and quite possibly overthrown, which he literally calls for doing when he accepts the the second time in 1936 in philadelphia. I mean, its just how people can ignore these kinds things. Well, what i find fascinating, too, about that is hes i love way you capture him as a radical, but i find also fascinating about that. Hes a radical that wants not only work within a system about to expand the systems. Yes. Order to accomplish what those goals are so its not revolution in an overthrowing its its adapting and modify what we have to that forward and to adjust first lets think about this for first to address the freedom from want and freedom from fear in those in actions that have brought america to the brink at the time. Youve got to like get your table set before you feed somebody a meal. So you know, well, sorry. In fact, im glad you took me in that direction because one of the things that i really have come to see and this, by the way, owes to fdr as assistant secretary of agriculture who later im talking rexford tugwell. Okay. Who had been a member of the brains trust, who later writes two books about fdr, the one and ill just show everyone ill a show and tell hoping not to throw everyone off but theres this particular one, the democratic roosevelt is just as a just a fantastic book and i actually literally keep in my wallet a quote from this book. It says, we are a lucky. We have had leaders when the National Life was at stake, if it had not been washington, we might not have become a nation. It had not been for lincoln. We might not might have been split in two if it had not been for this later democrat franklin roosevelt, we might succumbed to a dictatorship. Now, heres the answer. I think we may be a lucky people, but the other thing to consider is each one of those figures, those leaders, was made, all that was made great. And those are our three great because the American People pushed them even further. They might have imagined going. But heres the interesting thing fdr loved history. Its every one of his speeches just resonates with the american story. And if you look close at the well, what hes doing in there is hes not. Some people call, him the history teacher in chief. And ive done that myself. But its more than that. When he delivers his speeches as friends, his noted hes actually speaking to americans as if they know what he knows and theyre thinking along the same lines as hes thinking. So in essence, hes trying to engage them in this new deal project, not simply with their labors. Thats right. Or for that matter, their own labor struggles, but also wants to engage them so that they come to see themselves in a liberal or indeed social democratic fashion. And and i just i marvel at his capacity to that. I mean, given the fact that he came from this hudson river and yet he had this this sensibility which may well have developed in the 19th one, is to be able to engage. I mean, people actually believe when he gave fireside chats that he was in their living room where had somehow been invited to the white house because he spoke to them, whatever his accent, upper, you know, nature of his accent. The fact was they heard him as one of them and hundreds and of thousands of people responded. His said to him saying, i want to hear from you they sent letters to the white house by day. But this is the other thing, too given his knowledge of history, im convinced and i think i can show it by way of some of his speeches, im going to show by way of some of his speeches in a piece im writing right now that he took note from revolution, the and even more so in many ways as to how to confront a crisis from lincoln. Just as lincoln. Okay pushed by slaves escaped in the south by frederick douglass, with whom he actually became friends, was and enabled to sign the emancipation proclamation, do what he had longed to do. He may. He saved the United States by making america radically freer, more and more democratic. Whatever failings there were. Well, fdr realized, is that the way to save america in the face. The great depression, as he told his friend, is we need to go fairly radical for at least a generation. And he did things even during World War Two, which actually strengthened the new deal efforts. In fact, i think some historians are right to say maybe the maybe the war effort was like a third new deal. Well, thats why, you know, as we move forward or think about again, the four freedoms speech between that speech is is so rich and rife, language and phrases are so important, its hard to think of it as not being in inaugural address because it which would come to two weeks later, it has a has such a wealth of meaning in that it straddled these two or these two periods. Right. The depression and World War Two. Yes. And in fact, in fact, whats interesting when he gives that speech, he knows americans dont want to give the new deal. And he tells them, look we have to do we have to turn ourselves into arsenal of democracy. But that doesnt mean were going to give up what weve achieved or were going suspend it. And he knew he was telling telling the republicans, theres no im going to defer to what youre asking to do. Okay. So what he does, of course, is he says we should enhance what weve doing because we have to make ourselves all stronger by way of doing so. And then he does an interesting thing which, you know, only recently i pay more attention to it after he does gives the speech, he actually says something about American History, which undeniably is a bit of an exaggeration, because he talks about it as a peaceful process, but he calls the american story a peaceful revolution. And that gives you the sense that the revolution and by the way, the revolutionary changes took place in the course of the thirties. He saw, just as he over and over again emphasized were in the american fundamental american tradition. Now sidebar all this and say are not oblivious to the failings of fdr, the democrats and the and the american at that time. The failings regarding jewish refugees, the failings regarding crow in the south and the and truly tragedy of the internment of japaneseamericans. But we should also that those very people who suffered or endured the most Jewish Americans who may well have wanted greater refugee access. The africanamericans who were still suffering jim crow and the japaneseamericans whose families were interned they actually participated in the war effort in a decided lee and if not enthusiastic energetic and determined way. I mean i dont need to review all of that you can look in books to to remind yourselves of it. Well when we think of those four freedoms and and of injustices of the American Experience doesnt it doesnt negate what aspiration or the move towards justice is what it does highlight the need to continue to agitate and advocate for that. And thats what weve worked out an exhibit thats upcoming in the spring, the roosevelts black americans and civil rights what we we do see are those failings. But what we see, which is even more powerful really of a aspect of the story, is that when opportunity is presented, you organize and you fight and you move forward and you take that little door thats cracked open and you push your way into it. You keep, you keep on, you keep on. And that is true across the board for opportunity and and rights. And so i dont know. Yeah its a Philip Randolph you not all many of us know full well that Philip Randolph okay challenged fdr right to open up the Defense Industries to africanamerican workers and fdr felt compelled to do so and he signed two executive orders one ordering the you know, creation of the fair employment practice commission. The other one doing too, you know, making it all the stronger. But what people dont realize that randolph himself if response actually developed march on Washington Movement the threat of bringing tens of thousands and as he told fdr 100,000 africanamericans to d. C. To demand their place in the war in the defense effort soon to be war effort is that he did so because he heard the four freedoms speech thats that door opening that he took took advantage of and, by the way, after he was the oval office with fdr and secure heard the opening of the Defense Industries. He either wrote or said to someone i knew id get what i wanted or id never have been invited to the white house do to talk with fdr. So, you know, its like he he hed already been in the white house. He knew eleanor he was no stranger there necessarily. But he knew he knew the drama and he knew how to take of that opening. Yes. Absolute well, this is why this this moment, 1941, where this has which has been occurring over the last probably 18 months or so, all the president s for for longer is you recognize the, external threats. He had clearly been busy. The internal threats, what our security was and trying to secure that and advance, as you say, with the american with the American People, the ideas of the four freedoms. Well, that the other the other two are bedrock in the bill of rights. So and looking internationally, where that is not the that thats the threat you know that could that he sees right there now we have to secure ourselves and the world even beyond what hes been talking about previously with freedom from fear because. Its all interconnected. Yeah would if i can fantasize for moment what i mean my my nothing would nothing especially in this very cold moment here in green bay, wisconsin and then in the blizzard of about nothing would warm my heart more this winter in of what weve been going through with the rise of a kind of neofascism in america and politicians who are scorning history and and literally denying the powers of the declaration and the constitution, bill of rights. It would be great if. We heard our leading leading figures, you know, whether its biden, bernie sanders, whomever, whoever else stand forth, maybe together and actually remind the world that we remain committed, however much it may be, under assault to the ideals of those four freedoms and make even more fantastic to hear the democrats, at least the progressive coalition, come forth and talk fdr, 1944, state of the union, the bill of rights message he delivered, hoping that at wars end, americans might be able to pursue and Push Congress basically to make sure that all americans had a right to a job with a living wage, the right to a comfortable home, the right to, you know, to health what was then called universal health care, the right to a good education. In other words, fdr, its funny, fdr had said he would wait till the end of the war to to pursue the new deal ideals again. And then he did it anyhow in, that speech of january 44. Well, i find fascinating about your book too is how theres a notion of kind of reclaiming history in a way and reclaiming the idea of patriotism that that certain aspects of way in which we experience memory are the way which the greatest generation was honored neglects the world in which the greatest generation grew out of and the sets of values they were fighting for that influenced next 20 to 30 years of how nation structured itself and defined itself legislatively, for that matter. Yeah. You know, i, i used to students, i said, you know, you may, you not understand the fact that this generation when they were maybe 15 years old in 1935, many of them might have well in the men at least what might well have ended up in the civilian conservation corps. They would have been gay, engaged in the labors to rebuild america or the Works Progress administration, the Rural Electrification agency, or Tennessee Valley authority. I can go on and on and on the rebuilding the reconstruction of america. They experienced it. They knew it was possible okay. And theyre only 15. They fought a war against fascism between 1941, a war that had begun in 39 and 1945. And they won in concert with their allies and they were at the wars end. Many of the a mere 25 years old in 1955, 55, when the when the american was exploding, when one of every three workers was in a labor union, when taxes on the americans had never been higher. Okay, they were only 35. And in 1960s, which admittedly, my generation and its own chauvinism thinks of as its decade. Those folks are only 45. And as i think i said, they elected this liberal, indeed progressive of house and senate still filled with the southern, you know, white supremacists, but nevertheless, look at what they accomplished. Again, ill repeat medicare, Immigration Reform rights, Voting Rights and, environmental laws and probably missing out on a number of other. Oh, yeah. Educational opportunities expanded radically. So if you go back and you think 25, 35, 45, fdr endowed that generation, they were already patriotic in their own way. He endowed them with a vision of who they were and what they could accomplish. And i think its fascinating how you really hold accountable the left and the right for how approached the idea of the greatest generation, what response was there, what the per piece was, what was that serving, honoring a generation who had a participated in and rightfully claimed the victory for a set of ideals that were far, far removed from fascism. So im fascinated by that both both on the extremes of each are kind of missing the overall point. Yeah. Can you serve a narrative . Right. Conservatives were just to have always been determined. They were determined to suppress the new deal and they were decidedly determined to suppress the memory of the achievements a generation. But what so if you look back into the especially late eighties, nineties, the 2000s, the the republic conservatives they celebrated that generation for war effort for the heroism, the bravery, the courage for which that generation deserves accolades, deserves to be celebrated. It deserves the monument on the mall in washington, d. C. Its interesting, however, that forget how close that fdr memorial is and that World War Two memorial is and how intimately those two moment are in history, but that the part in fact, i was i was angry enough about what conservatives were making of the greatest generation. But my own sort of colleagues, comrades on the left. They literally were buying into it in a kind of knee jerk way the narrow understood ending. Okay. There were some who even said well, were celebrating the greatest generation because were just the conservative, the elite themselves. Theyre just getting us ready for another war. They completely missed the boat on the fact that a going through the and tribulations that we always seem to go through were looking back and trying to embrace a generation that had truly saved democracy and not just by defending status quo, but by dramatically transforming the country in favor of freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want and freedom from fear in the course of the thirties and forties. Lets not forget, fdr didnt sit back and come out with the four freedoms to give a nice state of the Union Message. He was empowered by what americans had achieved even during the thirties. And for my generation to fail to recognize the literally not just power but the capacity of a generation to transform america that we were failing to figure out what we might do. We just literally taking the critical sort of hostile stance and i mean that if people look at the book, i review the kinds of remarks he made and then the tribunes whether was the great documentary filmmaker ken burns the historian whose name i just blanked on, of course, tom brokaw, who was celebrating the greatest generation rarely. And by the way in some cases never mentioned the four freedoms. So, in essence, felt like, well, somebodys got to do something. And thats really, really why when i looked at the Bigger Picture as editor, who was a brilliant fellow, said i should do, i thought, well, what were missing out on is the power of that of that story. And and i think were still missing out on that. I mean, when i see the kinds of things that i see, whether in the Public Discourse or on twitter or anywhere else and the that americans have regarding what enables them today to appreciate what they have and what now owe. Not that, but theyre grandchildren and great. Its its it scares me. Well, on a on a hopeful note were still here talking to you about this book is now a few years old and yet ever more essential to be reminding people that narratives arent arent always one way or the other that theres complexity and nuance and you have remind ourselves and there have to be those like you. And frankly, i the fdr library who are are are brokering the past in a way so that people can formulate their views and opinions and not do it in, you know, blindly in the dark. Yeah. I mean, if i could, i mean, you know, there in the economic of rights, theres a very interesting thing that only notice as if like fdr was so outrageous that they wanted to assure americans a right to recreation. Think about that. A right to recreation. And by the way, the commission that helped fdr compose the economic bill of rights. They called it a right to adventure. And i can tell you and im not doing this to patronize you. I can tell you the adventure that i would urge for people to have is not only to find their way to washington, which i love, the national i mean, ever since i was ten years old, visiting the national mall, i never go to d. C. Without walking monuments. But i would also people to find their way to hyde park. Now, i cant tell everyone to go into the library and do research. You guys would be overwhelmed. Okay. But i can tell you there was nothing more thrilling to me when i was working on that book, the fight for the four freedoms than to hold the originals of the spirit of drafts of the speech of the four freedoms, the seven drafts. And im sure every whos ever bothered to do that kept, hoping that they would rub somebody, you know, the the dna of fdr, they touch those papers. But speaking i mean, its moving to visit just as its moving to visit springfield. It is moving to visit the fdr home and library and i urge people to do that. It appreciate you saying that and what i think part of that is and know ive walked in here for seven years and ive worked archives for a career and that literally physical connection, the past. Its not the past. Youre living it in that moment. Every time you held those documents. But what you get, i think on those grounds, when you think about what made fdr who he ultimately became as we all evolve and change we hope or should embrace. Certainly mrs. Roosevelts a perfect example of someone whose life balls thinking and continually evolving and that that you walk the grounds, you dont even need to come into the buildings and im saying that i should be encouraging everyone to buy, but you can walk those grounds. And in that place that seems and so far away at. This young in may and formulated a series ideas that that were so much larger and broader than where he was and who he was actually and that there was a point i always say this to schoolchildren i see them that right there was at one point almost the center of the world fighting fascism. Yeah for the defense of democracy right there and that four freedoms those ideas that generation that what we take with us forward but those thats what powers the future all of that all of that right there with us and thats what i how your book draws out from memory and that idea to yeah and then Something Else if i could just i i want to just this in if anybody becomes so enthusiastic as to go look at all of the fdr speeches or at least a section of them and, and for what its worth, you know, ive got my fdr four freedoms book up. I later this volume fdr in democracy and it and all that kind of stuff. But theres a speech by somebody of fdr speeches are so worth reclaiming and theres a speech that he gave in cleveland, ohio, in october 19. I think it was october 40, as his running for his. Third term as president , the unprecedented third term. And he speaks to americans about those who would them what they have achieved. But he also speaks to them about what they have achieved. And he doesnt my administration has done this you should elect. He actually reminds americans what they have done and he he lays it all out piece by piece what they done and hes not exaggerating. Hes talking about their labors, their energies, their struggles, whether it had to do with reconstructing america or reforming american america by creating a labor movement, a housewives movement, support of working people, all that kind of stuff. And then he lays and this is where he really, truly shows that he remains owns fundamentally not just the liberal that we all know him as, but the social democrat that he never called himself, he lays out vision. This is 1940 of what still remains possible. What americans can still achieve it is absolutely beautiful not telling you itll bring tears to your. But if you read that speech and dont get enthused about the possibilities. But dont forget it isnt just you wait on your president. He actually told a journalist in 32 that he never wanted to get too far out in front of his fellow citizens, which what he really was saying is, help me, fellow citizens, push me along. Its the only way. Well, on that famous story, i agree with you. Now make me do it. It wasnt being snotty when he said what he meant is i need to Show Congress that youre all with me. Well, its remarkable. The four freedoms are ideals. There something to aspire to. But theyre also something you put action you can put into action. Yes. And i think what . And i think ill close it on for for comment from you. I what i find fascinating is that when you condescend to people, when dont patronize them, when you speak to people about big things in a way that incorporate you in the conversation and doesnt set yourself above them that well, a lot can be accomplished. You described fdr beautifully, so. Well, thank you, harvey, as always just a pleasure. And we hope to have you at the library as you say, soon and maybe in the spring and. We invite everybody, of course, to participate or to come to the library, use our Research Room by appointment and and come enjoy the everything thats there. You. So thank you. And my best wishes and Merry Christmas to all the staff this may come out that best wishes merry and a happy new year to all you. Thank you very id like to begin the program today. The birth of israel truman. And the birth