Sources on cspan. Unfiltered. Unbiased. Word for word. From the nations capital, to wherever you are, you can see opinion that matters the most is your own. This is democracy. Cspan, powered by cable. Welcome, everyone. Good evening. Thank you for coming out for this womens History Month event. It is a Panel Discussion featuring Elizabeth Gilbert im sorry. We are so happy to have them all here to discuss their books and to honor womens History Month. Allison gilbert is the Emmy Awardwinning journalist and co author of listen, world how the intrepid Elsie Robinson became americas most read woman, groundbreaking biography that an important constitution to womens history. Elizabeth griffith, historian, former leader and the National Womens political caucus and National Womens fund and author of formattable american women and the fight for equality, 1920 to 2020. Please give them a very warm welcome. [ applause ] i also qualify as a biographer because my first book was a biography. Were here to talk about these two others in their biographies. Since the timeswarriors and knights going on quests, the admirable warriors or the generals or the person writing inaccurately about george washington, biographies have been used to inspire young men with examples of character and courage. Very few people initially, well, for centuries, wrote about women. If they did, they were generally lessons in chastity, stories about virgin mothers, converted martyrs, virgin queens. These were not lessons in leadership to inspire , but publishers and prize committees have recognized what all of you know, that biographies are very appealing reads. They tell us an inside story. The best ones are not diaries or date books. They go deeper, although we do love those intimate details. The best biographers put their subject in the era. Allison gilbert with her listen, world, the intrepid life of Elsie Robinson, talks about a waumandee who came to authority before women had any power. Born 1873, women dont get the vote until 1920. This is an era of powerlessness for women. No rights to property, no rights to keep earnings, no right to divorce, no right to child custody, no reproductive rights at all. This is putting her in this era where women have no power. Cates, the exception, has written about Nancy Hopkins, molecular biologist at mit who will come of age during the resurgence of the Womens Movement during the 1960s, but it takes her a long time to understand the era in which she is living and use that for herself. You have both written about exceptional women. Tell us why they were exceptional. Thank you, all, for coming here tonight. We are so grateful, and im so grateful to you, betsy, for leading this discussion. I am thrilled. Elsie robinson came from nothing. She had no connections. She was impoverished for a time , really having trouble to make ends meet, and she became the ultimate heroin story, became the highestpaid writer in the entire William Randolph hearst media empire between the 1820s and 1850s, and she was the most read woman in the entire country during that time in all measure because of the hearst platform. There was no comparable media outlet than to be a hearst writer, so she used that platform to say what was on her mind, which we can get into, but there was no holding back for Elsie Robinson. And what about professor hopkins . Nancy hopkins, thank you for having us and for your introduction. Nancy hopkins was the molecular biologist. She joined i first met her im sorry. I just met her in 1999 when i was a reporter for the boston globe, and sorry. I got a tip that there was something going on with women and discrimination in i. T. I was given the name of Nancy Hopkins, i called her up, and she said mit was going to acknowledge discoloration against women on faculty, and they were going to do this. This is striking to me. In my experience, this is a man by dog situation. Nancy said the reason they were going to do this is a group of women at mit had gotten together and gathered data to look at how men and women were treated differently. We have learned they have proven their case so successfully that the administration of mit had no choice but to say, okay, we have been this. Nancy and the other women, there are 16 of them in the book, they were exceptional and that most of them were hired by mit in the early 1970s, the beginning of affirmative action. It really was exceptional to have women elite scientific lab, but really, this is science for a field i was very much dominated by men. There were antinepotism rules that kept where universities would only hire the husband, not a wife. I also talk about the exceptions that there are double meanings in my title because the exception is how does women explain their discrimination over the years. Well get into this, but every time something happens to them, they thought, oh, that is just a one off it that is just a personality conflict, or its me, its a situation. Only over time and wants they came together, led by nancy, they realized these were impacting them. These two women are journalists. Allison has written about a journalist, one of the things i so like about his book is Elsie Robinson writes with verve and energy and a lot of opinion. Thats the only way you can tell the difference between the biographer and the subject, is when shes quoting Elsie Robinson. The print is in italics, but otherwise, this book flows with energy, and this is a compelling book of a woman who scraped herself up. Keep going. I like what you are saying. I thought when i wrote this book, which is about black and White American women that finally got to vote, then i earned a second phd about African American history. I was planning so much i was never taught. I would think writing this book would have earned you a phd in molecular biology. My question is about writing, about what sources you are able to use, what the challenges were about even vocabulary and using a language you might not have been so comfortable with. You talk a little bit about use of names in your book, how you identify people, how you address Technology Going back and forth. Do you straightforwardly go through . Then if you might, i could ask this as my followup. You worked with a coauthor. You worked with the subject to a still alive. I mentioned for authors, those are challenging issues. Start anywhere. Start with how did you find out . Oh, sure. How i found out about Elsie Robinson, the first biography about Elsie Robinson to be written. The number one question of course was, why you and why did you discover her . Did you hear that. Hers is the first biography ever read. Its a really personal story. Only came to me because my mother had died, and what i mean by that is i grew up in new york and shortly after i graduated college, my mother passed away, and my brother and i went to our childhood home in the bronx not too far away, and we were clearing out our childhood home and getting ready to sell, and inside one of my mothers book that we were packing up, fill out a piece of paper that she had stuffed inside, and in this piece of paper, she had a scanned paper from back in the day. My mother had retyped in a manual typewriter the most tough love, in your face about grief poem i have ever read, and it was attributed to someone named Elsie Robinson, and i turned to my brother and said, whos Elsie Robinson . Is it a friend of moms . Is that an old College Roommate . We both had no idea who Elsie Robinson was, and it sent me on this course of learning i possibly could what turns out to be this american dynamo trailblazer badass incredible oneman. Ill have to return to the badass but because its not going into depth here. Tell me what you want. About old the science. Was it a challenge to write such a tale about, this is really highlevel science. Another reason the women in my book nancy gets her phd in 1971, starts at mit, and news starts there at 1973. She doesnt really start, she doesnt consider herself an activist, not a feminist at all , and it takes 20 years to become an activist and feminist and realize shes being discriminated against, as for the other women in the book, they really want to be scientists, not activists and not really feminists. So, but when it came time to writing the book, they were kind of memorializing this right. They wanted to be scientists. When you talk to female scientists, they just say i just want to be known as a scientist, not a female scientists. Understandable. Imported to the book, some who are alive, that i celebrate them. It was really important to me to tell the story. Its incredibly difficult, partly because its technical terms. I learned how to say but i also, one of the experiments that nancy does at the end of the book, it is a slow process. Youre like, how am i going to make this interesting you have to keep reminding people why is it important, all the different steps. For me, theres one particular experiment. The microbiologist got into france, went to a one hour lecture, then won a nobel prize in decoding the structure of dna. She just realized this new revolution about genetics. She is 19 other time. She then goes on to do one of the most important early experiments in gene expression. In other words, if our cells all have the same genetic dna, how does dna went to turn on enter off . How does one sell become a hand and one becomes an ear or whatever . That experiments, i knew it was really important because i had to establish a. For science reading it, its old hat at this point, so i had to make it fresh for anyone who came into the science. So, finally, and it really was a breakthrough at one point. I thought, this is a story. Every experiment is telling a story. Thats what i try to do, and you want to go to your follow up . Keep going. Once i got it, particularly the early ones, you realize its thrilling. You realize why people get into it. My favorite question out of everyone turned out to be how did you get into finance. One of the women, whose a chemist, which is a very preppy field for women, and she got into science because she went to her library, and she was working her way through the books, the what if theories of the books. And she comes to what is chemistry, because she doesnt know chemistry. So she takes it, shes entranced by it, and she takes out what is chemistry. She takes her peekaboo fountain pen, and shes going to be a gymnast. So, i became evangelical about your client, which was fun. It was a turnaround for me. You had something before that i to address , which is the structure of listed world identify a tell us to identify elsie wilsons own words. That was something intrinsic to the research because so much of Elsie Robinsons writing was not digitized, so we had to do the painstaking labor of going to the microphone and getting the words, you know, in a very cumbersome matter. The realizing is that maybe you are not writing a book about a writer. You express, you are in an odd choice for womens. To resurrect a womans life and not give or air, to not give her words, oxygen, we also knew, but if we spent these on a digitized columns and essays and works of fiction and poetry , we knew we had to make it easier for readers to appreciate Elsie Robinsons voice, so by missing italics to bring in so much of Elsie Robinson, to tell her story alongside that we saw would make sense, and in so doing, we created a database. This is kind of insight baseball. We did some math, some numbers crunching. She produced 9000 pieces of content during her massive 30 year plus career. We created a database of all this writing. She also produced aerial cartoons, and we were able to create tags and keywords with our database, and Elsie Robinson was running about. Put daycare . They said what is she writes about marriage. What if she rides. Capitalism, antisemitism, war, racism, et cetera, et cetera. Thats Elsie Robinsons own words too. Huge gift. I thought about bringing props. I was thinking about dusty typewriter or an acts. Of course, a tape measure. Start with the gold line Elsie Robinson was in a disastrous marriage that was. In 1912, she checked out her marriage, took her only funds, and they began in 1912 to lead to a single mother and child, which was exceptionally rare at this time. If you are divorced, if you are brilliant kept mrs. Because of the shame attached to having not be attached to a man at that time. This is all to say she was in dire straits once he finally got back to her california. And 1915 and 1918, Elsie Robinson worked as a minor in a massive goldmine. The only women on a crew of men. She worked 600 feet below the surface of the earth, where people died, and yet, she had no there a way of scrounging for a living with her son by her side as a duo would go through life together and form this incredible bond that shapes her, not only her personal life, but even how she began her career, which i finally left, which well wait for in 1918 that came from the ship that gave her an opportunity to pursue her green of becoming an artist, a writer. She has been writing childrens stories and illustrating them, and she found in this dusty gold town thank you for waking me up with the story. I appreciate that. This is really hard. So, mike, author julia guys went back to her needles california. This is where this goldmining town is, then we went back there and on an Exploration Mission during the research of this book. She made an exceptional friendship with the daughter of a former slave who was brought to california as a slave, and became one of the most incredibly successful black gold miners in the entire history of the american west. That mans daughter and all Elsie Robinson became best friends Elsie Robinson was trying to become a writer, she knew she couldnt do these manuscript by hand. And what this woman gave her wasnt ancient. It is not an agent any old hyper. We are pretty certain in the old post office, we were allowed to have access to that found typewriter, so we know for the one. Because we worked with types of writers, experts, who can tell us by the keys and the manufacturer when it was produced, where in the country it would have been brutalized, and here is the best part about this. Any typewriter aficionado. This typewriter was so old but it matches the description so perfectly. There were calls at the exact same key. One row was kind of a black key. It is like three rows each. Were kind of voted favorite favorite crjpe. The whole entire thing was replayed. Imagine typing your manuscript on that. Yeah. So, we have pictures of this typewriter. It was covered. It was just a remarkable find. This is why biographers, they love the detective work. It is hard to stop during detective work and actually write because youre sure youre going to find another cache of letters. Did you ever find the measuring tape . Does the measuring tape exists . So tell about the measuring tape. I get this call, this tip who call Nancy Hopkins, and she said , because im going to come over and go to where it all started. She said, well, you know, i was looking into a new area. We were christian. I needed more space in my shank tank and i could not get around it. I knew it had one more space. I measured. Measured . She said, with a tape measure. We in new york city, but she had the christmas and a little bit. I thought, because she tells me, shes like in her mid50s i guess at this point. When she found out she did not have as much space and an apartment saying thats not true, she was like all i have to do is prove him. So she took the measuring table and she measured every week. Speaking of night. She would rate until the post lock dinner to eat. There is one night that i tell them in their bumbershoot, they love to go crazy. At least i am going crazy because they are making crazy with all this stuff. She goes back to the guy who is in charge of space, and here, she is ready to will for the comers. She knows the measurements that she has, but not only was that, let men who dont have tenure. She has a good group of fully tenured professors. That is the first moment for her. The straw that breaks the camels back is when she is teaching a class shes at this very important question of my team. The first time mit is going to require biology talk to undergraduates because the other helmet involves chemistry and physics. Given the revolution of genetics, all other graduates from institution continues positions that mit. Have to understand. Nancy pelosi , they asked me to develop a cohesive course. She developed a course, and man who is 14 years your junior. Very successful, get high ratings, get high reaching weddings, and then, somebody called into this departments august. Hes like was the one i think this year. She says, the bio course. What do you want to the. Can we do ceases. How you do another class. I cant figure out what is going on because like i said, so many of erics are he says well, its not like that i dont like teasing with you. We got this idea to write the textbook, and we were going to write this you love. So then we stopped harvey who wants to twitch we had a company that ordered a president. What are my children going to start reading. Anyway, this euro of her is first. Is she keeping the plant jet on. Fair oaks connor. This were to brilliant and helped a friend of her. Are you out of my buying, i guess it really is in front of you. That is when she goes to get this course out. They take you off the feeler and the toy rock, and finally within, lark became the president. She said to the president , ill tester anthology because she seems to have no idea who it is and i stream from edit because he has no idea is you should note there should be a valuable or you want like this so she take the letter and shows it to a woman she really admires, doesnt well well who is 10 years the onlys person. She was the first person to be. She fits over was i do. I think we should go see the president. Ultimately it decide theyre going to hold off and go to the present. That all the women i call her 50 here there are some moment mrt. How can we start with school science. A consult a cerner, anxiety, and look at women. They look through to see how many women and who is the world. And thats available right, so they are still killed skilled scientists that hits the. So huge disparity. This is fully 20 years , and mit, the numbers have not budged despite the fact that in the number of graduates went and particularly in budget and chemistry, so that was one of the break big there is of the report something happened to him along the career drudgery. None of this was a surprise to me. In addition to womens teaching 40 years i was more than 20 years of an Independent School for girls. Part of my job and making sure women have extra tames over their lives and not just have one of the reasons that whitmans gut suffers prior to 19 20. They got suffrage in the west. Tell steak, and they were all west of the mississippi western states gave themselves a severance, and i Economic Partners today were turning Raw Materials into agricultural products. The e gave them eagle pay to leech. They was a draw there population to their town, so they gave them delivery rights and divorce rates. It was based on the steps of meredith that they had meredith and proven to themselves when Nancy Hopkins was that red cliff when 1964 she was a wisdom, she was a regular biologist one of those doctoral protocol where everybody is a doctor but you would help with the schedule and vg hell be the first one to get a phd. Still sort of in an underling would be sometimes, but she was instructed by what she called upon expectation. The woman would not be extendable, though accepted to be professional, that she would start this program max and cumin in them. It attracts women who are stuck with children and not able to find their work so, shes trying to find a niche who up been successful. Maybe lenny summers is given i talk of humans science and say that when intrinsic the lab aptitude for science. She looks good very in this room. Closer okay. Picked up her purse, and walked out. What m is again plants is only a dance. Only for tactics our people do not really that they will be seen. Dont want to blame the gentleman, but the cars. I have individual patriarch, but not individual power but perky i. E. , by six world socialization. Men and women on the spectrum of gender, has been taught ever and ever about what is appropriate behavior for man with it the prairie it was whenever women pushed that out. So, how do we encounter such a social interaction . What cools in addition to be exceptional can women use to break them. Part of that sexual stereotyping is that you make trouble if you are at the bleats and i dont want to stir because people will think im nagging, aaron, and that word rhymes with cold. Women try to avoid that even today. Did anybody call Elsie Robinson of . I think what is so interesting about the name of Elsie Robinson was called, they took on bridge. That is the reason why there book is called whistle world. That was the name of her column, so we borrowed the neighborhood for a column. Weird. Good issue and that she was in the world, who are you to tell me what to listen to, what to think, what to ruminate over, what to consider. Folks, even the column was taken apart. What i think i was so moved by continually, and healthy robinson story was written into the little only. We talk about patriarchy. So much of what we found out about Elsie Robinson was not because someone out there had put together an Elsie Robinson. It is an archive waiting for me to uncover the boxes and find her life story in front of us. Oh no, no, no. Papers whenever keira blidh and we engineered her wife so we found evidence of her attitude and advocating for herself in the bancroft, library, and the gary area. So in the william handles crafts para, there was correspondence between him and Elsie Robinson directly. We found other course. Her other editors at the stand frame crime adult. If you want to have a vapor. Of course i want her and her glasses. Universe, university, so, lo and behold. She did not mince words. She accused them, she complained about she wanted more time off to a little bit of just we talk about Work Life Balance now here that was not a term back in the day, but she felt she was worse more. Here is one great story. In 1940, after she uncovered these letters where she took William Randolph hearst and that you have to know the William Randolph hearst was, by the way. He was a just like a little boss. He was the most powerful publisher in the world, so for her to take it to them directly shows the gumption and incredible belief in your own competency. She knew she was a unicorn. She knew she was valuable. She knew she was irreplaceable, so she stood on that confidence he and demanded no sports, which i think is one of the great lessons of Elsie Robinson for me, which is to evaluate, but what are we bringing to the table and demand to be compensated because you know. Im success is my world. It was eyeballed on the page. It was going to the empire, and i know my power. Know your value. Think of this. Got Elsie Robinson where a time when women are generally powerless. Even after they get the votes, they dont use it. That you have a woman nowhere near as bold for many years and doesnt get bold until she sees allies. Is it being a scientist . Is this this fate and merit that i am soak really brilliant, what she was, modestly, but brilliant, nationally acknowledged. But still timid about taking these steps and even reaching out to other women to the apartment. Yeah. Its not the full person. Part of it is so she raised in new york city. How are you . The its expensive at a time. Girls when i arrived in the money had to curtsy for the doorman. It was good training. Im sorry, late 50s. You might be presented in quartz iguana. You are told to shut your mouth, be quiet, be nice. There is this great moment where nancy is working with which she does, and he gets sort of my best friends would not act like this way. It will be nice not to do anything. But not in sta credibly thrilled. I think she goes into it partly because it is a strategic way. But as said, she thinks science is a meritocracy. All these women do. She is also a refuge from a thing about national. She run caius, she does purely on her science, not on her personality or, you know , through his emotions, shes going to be there preaching disagrees. She is not going to spend given me. She is not brought up this way and she is stopped cutting her meritocracy. We remember what this increased death, an action space. All these womens thought it was , and what we found out is it doesnt really exist. Its all how you relate to people and, so so this is me, then she goes into the extent of first few things. She is on the floor, which is cancerous as a reminder delete system. The white lines are probably wishing mack pierce you leave the store and goes to get her own slab, thinking ill be protected there, no problem. That she relies on the back, and i thought she might discover like a roller coaster. Maybe if she wields in keeter. She testified again. Its what they call dust it is such a brilliant phrase. The type roped of behavioral expectations were women, and this is just to participate in this deal because then you dont have, but if you are to aggressive, or as nancy and the other woman here utterly decides also omit wrestle with. Data outdoor the real girl is. That is what keeps this progress im circling back today sun valley post here to, competitiveness versus good manners. Ill be here soon we are slowly on the apartment in which we worked. If you are working with a lot of men weapons socialized differently, then you have a more challenging want. Id like to add one thing just to make it interesting. That counterpart with our subjects is that elsie was really about elsie, in addition to your readers theres a very like 2000 . 23. She was preventing herself in a public facing way to extract more energy, and this goes back, by the way two 1918, when she got her first job. It was eventually, but it became on magazine, so she became, she started out as a childrens writer, it would not be right of her to stay in this lane. Then it became an eight page section and the tribune, which she wanted to own that, and by the way, this woman was so powerful, that she died in 1956. Elsie as the branch lasted into the 70s. She wasnt meant to be a nonthreatening person. So, of course it was, but heres the kicker which i love too. She started making the transition to writing for their parents, writing for adults. She again have a choice, there are a lot of women who are under pseudonyms writing can one of her first was called cry on geraldines shoulder, and she was fairly. When she finally made the transition chronicle, she basically cad enough of that. I am writing under my own name would my own byline and she even said in her debut. In 1923 for San Francisco chronicle. Shes not coming with you under a pretend name or citizen. Im giving you. Another year, she was hired by William Randolph hearst in 1924 and spent the rest of her career until her death in 1956 writing for herself. She was so prolific, her articles kept going after she died because she is so much in the hopper. She was a workaholic. Keep in mind this is the badass whos been a coal miner. Not only was she underground 600 feet, but she walked for miles back and forth every day after the shifts end and then to work. This is a gutsy woman who has this sense of self, but still start and discuss. The pseudonyms she news is how she approached herself. Its a very common strategy for women to sort of sneak in under the radar. Elizabeth cady stanton, one of the most radical thinkers about feminism in the 19th century. Looks like everybodys grandmother and was very funny until she got the podium, and then she just would be scathing in a nicely snarking way. Frances perkins says when she started doing labor law bring an the new york legislator, shes an attractive woman. She dressed 20 years older because she said the male legislators to want to hear from me, but they will respect son who looks like her mother, so she edged her way in and women had to find ways to etch in, and Nancy Hopkins way was for the marriage to be so good, but that to find alice. I know ive already blamed all the men here who are patriarchs, but both of these women had male and female allies. Could you talk a little bit about the allyship . I want to say one more thing on the personality question. Whats frightening to what you are saying is the way people talked about nancy. The first thing, but the first thing that made her kind of push away from the table is women to want to work 80 hour weeks. Here is the answer to working 80 hour weeks for 30 years at this point. I think were still talking about women and different ways, but the ally worth is important. 16 women who come together, mary lou, a mix of diner, notice there are 15 women in political scientists, grab two more. They surveyed them all. Within a week, all the women but one signed on, and they spent six weeks writing this letter to the dean of financing. And they schedule a meeting with him, and they are so worried they are going to show up and theres going to be lawyers there. Oh my god, the whole University Must be on alert. Then they show up to the meeting , and he hasnt even read the letter. Its like, nancys complaining about the course again thats been stolen from her. But hes got six of these women around the table, and in that moment, he describes it like a scientific epiphany because one after another, the women going on tell their stories, and he begins to see what all scientists the record is a pattern, and in fact, none of the women in front of him because half of the 60 women did not have children. He had four kids, a wife who helped raise them or who was doing the bulk of the raising of them, and it occurred to him like, hes never had to think, can i have children are not have children . How is it going to affect my career . He just had four kids and the wife took care of them. So he was their first big ally, but the other person who is huge is the president of mit at the time. There have been many, many reports. One more person i will tell you about to do women go to the dean of science and asked for a committee to look at resources for men and women. The dean gives them the committee, and i thought, especially when i went back to do the book, i thought, committees, they turn out reports. Thats what they do. Thats why there was a report in this case. Turns out that is not in fact the case. The book , its amazing when you read the whole book if in going public. The reason it becomes a report, because nancy is they put on the committee. The women get the committee. Some of the women think, we just need all women on the committee. Nancy thinks we need one window one woman in every department to keep an eye on this. They say, no, you need to work with men. You need to work with the most powerful men here. He puts on a committee, the head of the department. He says, oh my god, this is happening. People need to know about this. The dean needs to fix this. You need this in writing. That becomes the report that is supposedly released to the faculty and the rest of the word. That was an ally. The reason this report the dean shows up to his office the next morning, nancy shows up to her office, picks up the phone, which is ringing and it will be continue to rename for two weeks. This was a huge deal. To your two days later the new yorks time ran it on the front page. With that, emails across country and across the world. And other women saying, this is my story, too. I thought i was the only one. The reason this report got so much risk press and resonated in the way was because the president of m. I. T. Put a stamp on it. It was, like, three sentences may be. A very crucial statement. I believe gender discrimination in Higher Education is part perception and part reality. True, but i now understand that reality is by far the greater part of the balance just him saying this is true, this is not in their heads this is actually happening to them, that was huge. John hopkins had done reports. M. I. T. Does reports. The ally in the president was a critical step there. I once heard Nancy Hopkins talk in a meeting of academics about how to change womens roles in institutions. The two point she made were the allies among the faculty and you need to institutionalize. Put the committee in place. Even if the president changes, the committee will still be there doing the work. You have to embed it in the institution or nothing changes. I wanted to talk about work, life, balance. Children. Long and tragic story. For moments of question and answer. I know we are on a times game tonight, and i want you all to be able to purchase the books and get these authors to sign them. To final short questions. Biographers are not supposed to be agyakwa first. They are not writing life saints, its words and all. The first question is did you discover any words about your characters . Yeah, nancy, the dean spoke to nancy at one point. Nancy has an incredibly restless mind. Looking for something to fixate on. As much as shes a nice person, its a little bit hard. The dean recognizes it and says, can i invest that you live by the 24 hour role. Dont pop your head off. Wait 24 hours before you pop your head off. She cant. I would say her line can turn obsessive a little bit. I think robinson was obsessive, too, and a cautionary tale for not paying attention to the personal relationships that give you strength and respite. Her romantic life was a series of failed marriages. I think she even joked marrying a columnist is like a holocaust because everything is a copy. Everything is a copy. I think she would it was taking him every day. Thats more than some bloggers today. The amount of work was painful. Ultimately destructive to her mental health. I one point in my book, this book, the epilogue title is not enough. It is not enough, if you look at it statistically. In so many ways. At so many levels. At one point, when i am writing about women scientists, i quote i knew it was factually correct, but i did not transfer it into percentages. In the 1990s there were more tenured women professors at m. I. T. Then there were women in the United States senate. Of course by percentage it could have worked out either way. I didnt run the numbers. Today there are 25 women in the United States senate. Which is 25 . I can easily do that map. How are we doing in women in science, women and journalism, different fields, and United States, 90 of kindergartner womens teachers are women. 4 of pilots. Theres a whole range in between. Women in the Sciences Fall low. There are issues of Sexual Harassment driving them out of those fields. Women and journalism, how are they doing . I think its a great time to do to be a women in journalism. I did a 20 part series where i hosted or interviewed women who covered 9 11 for the 20th anniversary for the attacks. As part of that projects i talk about how has the terrain changed for women . Not everyone. Clearly there are bumps in the road. In a broad stretch. Women have achieved in newsrooms across the country in ways i dont think were possible, even a generation ago. I find that to be hopeful. I find that to be exciting. It makes me look forward to what is to come in the next 20 years. Do you think they are above 30 of journalists in all fields who think women are more than 30 . I dont know that data. I should, so i appreciate you asking the question. Its important to me, if i were to do that research, what i would look for are not just the women in front of the camera. The decisionmaking power of people in management in newsrooms, to me, is a much more defining and important statistic to care about. Personally, if i was doing the research and writing a book, lets say, about that, i would want to know the women in management positions, who are in control of editorial positions, what gets on television or in the newspaper. People in charge of employing decisionmakers in fact checkers. That would be a much more important statistic than who are the bylines. Who are the actual anchors . Important. I would want to more know the decisionmakers. I use that percentage because the political body with the largest number of women serving is the lowest level. School boards and city councils. You have more women there than anyplace in the country. Your point is germane. The corporations that have women and africanamericans and diverse representations on their boards, only 20 in the country have equal 5050 representation men and women. Those of the corporations were hiring women and Diverse People in their suites. That changes everything. Also, according to fortune magazine, some of the most productive and prosperous and profitable corporations in the country. The diverse leadership. What is happening with women in science today . First of all the thing to know about m. I. T. Is that its run by women. The head of the board, the president , the dean of science and director of research. The advisers. Into school engineering. Eight departments five are led by women. Would have been unheard of. 1993 there had not been a single woman in as a head of a department at m. I. T. Thats huge. The percent of faculty is still about 22 now. It was a percent in 1994. What is happened is weve lost a little by attrition. To your point, the level is equivalent of that. Where you see the difference, and this is the point i really want to make, yes, it matters, but it is also and this was a big revelation to me about the story. Its not enough just to put women on leadership. Its not enough to open the door. Its how you talk about them and view them and treat them. All the way up. What happens is, if you look at the phd level at m. I. T. , and of course more than half of the undergraduates are women. You look at the phd level and who is dropping out, the attrition rate, its much higher young among young women. Theyre constantly up against this expectation that women doesnt have what it takes to do science. The 2018, National Academy of science and engineering did a study, 50 of faculty said they had been sexually harassed. It was not what these women thought discrimination was, that it had to include sex. Its not a sexual coercion. Men hitting on them. It really is intellectual discrimination. The disbelief that you are not smart enough, you dont belong here. Thats really the hurdle for me. What i would look at, what i would think is this is a beautiful feeling. It tells us something about the other field. When we look at the language around intellect, right, when we talk about it, we are much more likely to associate genius with men. Also, when you look at the way we talk about math and physics, particularly pure math and physics. Men and women alike assume you need raw brilliance or genius to do those fields. The effect of this is, even women think, oh, those fields are in for me, because i dont have the genius it takes. Thats not me. I work really hard. I think thats the real hurdle. The way we talk about people. The way we talk about women in the way we see them. I have to say every time Larry Summers is saying something, i hit something with the television. We are under a little bit of a deadline because of when dinner is being served in the book signing. I do not want to cut off any questions. If theres one in the audience, please stand up. We have a mic so you will be recorded. Yes please, front row. Right here. Hi, my name is rose. What do you think the motivating factor, what made these women take that risk . For nancy it was for all of these women really, nancy in particular because she was the ringleader here. She reached a point where she could no longer do her science. She needed more fish to do an experiment. She needed three generations. She couldnt do it. She could see others around here. It became so frustrating. At one point she competed in the lab lecturer with a guy. She tripped and hurt her back and ended up staying home. Stupid stuff. Its getting in the way of progress. All of this distraction adds up from the actual science that is happening. What about elsie . Poverty . I think she was motivated out of feeling absolutely suffocated. She felt completely drained from lack of ability into a place that gave her fulfillment. The writing and illustrating began as a way to entertain her son. He was born in 1904. How do you entertain a child in that era . It was to draw him pictures and write him stories. I think to overcome boredom, to make sure she entertained her son, who was sick his entire life, i think gave her the freedom of expression which ultimately became her ticket to supporting herself when she couldnt take it anymore, and she left her husband, as i said, in 1912, which was just unheard of. Please let me commend you. These very readable, really excellent biographies. They balance both the character element. You are learning about these peoples integrity, intelligence and grit. You are learning about the eras in which they lived. These are good books, enjoy them. Thank you very much. Thank you