They saved their largest mission project. Which is now georgetown university. In this groundbreaking account, professor swarns follows one family through nearly two centuries of enslavement to uncovering the harling story of the Catholic Church in the united states. Rachel is a journalist, author and associate professor of journalism at new york university, who writes about race and Race Relations as a contributing writer for the New York Times. Her articles about georgetown universitys roots in slavery touched off a National Conversation about americas universities and their ties to this painful period in history. Her work has been supported by the National Endowment for humanities, the ford foundation, the Leon Levy Center for biography, the Biographers International organization, among others. As a correspondent for the times, she reported from russia, cuba, guatemala and southern africa. And covered emigration and president ial politics and motion Michelle Obama and her role in the white house. She is the author of american tapestry, the story of the black, white and multiracial ancestors of Michelle Obama and the coauthors unseen, from the New York Times photo archives. Swarns will be joined in conversation today with michelle martin. The host of morning edition. Previously she was the weekend host of all Things Considered and host of the consider this saturday podcast where she drew on her deep reporting and intervening experience to dig into the news. She has been a journalist for more than 25 years and honored by numerous organizations. Please join me in welcoming Rachel Swarns and michelle martin. Thank you, there are four of us on the morning edition, do not get in trouble, welcome. And welcome home. Its nice to have you back in d. C. Quite a journey. You know, how many of you read her original New York Times piece in 2016, do you remember . So, do you ever wonder when somebody writes what is particularly a deeply reported article, and a book comes out, if there is more to say . Do you ever . And i was wondering, why you understood, or when you understood there was so much more to say. What was it after the first piece which was so impactful and so deeply reported and so shocking to some, that made you understand there was much more to say . Well, it is so cool to be sitting alongside you. And to see you after so many years. So, thinking about how i even came to this story, and it started in 2015. Students were protesting at georgetown. They were concerned about two buildings that carry the names of two of the piece who happened to be early president s who had orchestrated this sale. And, the administration changed the names, they had been considering changing the names even before that. But, the protest caught the eye of georgetown alum, the ceo of a tech company in cambridge who said okay, protest about the buildings, about the history, change the names, but the 272, what happened to them . We reached out to a faculty member at georgetown, as i mentioned, georgetown had already been looking into this and trying to think about its own history and slavery and how to wrestle with it. And said okay, well, what happened to the descendents . He was told, they all died. And he said, they all died . Nearly 300 people, no descendents . And that seemed implausible to him. There were certainly other people on the working group that thought they were descendents but he said they werent. So, this guy said to himself, that makes absolutely no sense. And richard was someone, a white guy, republican, ceo of a tech company who had not been involved in Racial Justice issues in any way before. But, he loved georgetown and he said, you know, i think we kind of owes something to these people, the schools existence is connected to these people. So, he hired a team of genealogists who started digging and trying to find descendents, then he reached out to a colleague of mine at the times who was on the business side, a Business Reporter rather. And said, you know, i think i have an exclusive for the times from the 1830s that benefited georgetown. And she was kind of like okay, interesting, is that even a story . So, it is my Great Fortune that she didnt just delete the email. You have to remember, this was before the 60 19th project, but it wasnt the kind of reporting that we typically do. But, she remembered there was someone on the staff who might have a sense of this, and she remembered the book i had done about Michelle Obamas ancestors, tracing her enslaved ancestors back to the slaves, so she forwarded it to me and i knew immediately the story. My reporting about Michelle Obamas ancestors had allowed me to explore house how slavery shaped American Families and i thought this would be the next step to look at how slavery shaped one of our elite institutions. But, what i didnt know was, who were the 272, that is what i needed to find out. Can i just tell you, i was so moved by every aspect of that story, which i didnt understand the back story until i read the book, think about this, lets just marinate in that for a minute. This white guy who had not thought very much about slavery, didnt have any connection to it, and understands that an institution that he cares deeply about is deeply enmeshed in it, and he digs into his pocket, does some work, and reaches out to you and your colleague reaches out to you and there we have it. And i just think you know, first of all, that is reporting 101, this is why i always tell my internist, please read your email. He asked a very fundamental question, who were they and what were their names . This is a quote from a book, this is not a disembodied group of people who are nameless and faceless, these are real people with real names and real defendants. That was his quote, that is what he felt. In fact, let us just ask if there are any among us today who are directly connected to this story. Will you show yourself . Can we welcome you and honor you . Thank you for being here. We are still here, my family is still in Southern Maryland. And we are glad you are still here, thank you for being here, thank you for allowing your story to rise. Your article focused on georgetown. In the book, it focuses on the bigger story of the role of slavery in the building of the american Catholic Church, as briefly as you can, what was it and why was it so important . A started again by looking at this sale and i think it would be helpful to tell just a quick story that will make you understand the larger picture, to do that i just want to tell a story that i tell a lot. As a journalist, im not a historian. I often think about when you are writing about slavery, being aware that there are a lot of folks that are going to say, no thank you. Turn the page, turn your head, so how do you bring that story to people . How do you get people to hear . The way i feel is the best way is to tell a story that is compelling, to introduce families that people might want to read about. So when i talk about the 272 and how i got to georgetown and the Catholic Church, i like to bring people back to november of 1838 to give you a sense of what it was like for these people. And in 1838, these folks were brought from Southern Maryland, to alexandria, virginia. And if you have been there, you would have seen them. Scores of people, being loaded on a ship, forcibly loaded, elderly people, parents, children, babies, witnesses describe people falling to their knees weeping, begging for mercy. And these were people who were torn from other people they love it and the world that they knew, and the shift down south, they were owned by the most powerful jesuit priest, who happened to be among the largest slaveholders in america and they were selling these folks when times got hard, as people did, because they were their most prized assets and they wanted to save the school. As i started digging and realizing, i had no idea that priests were involved in the slave trade, no idea that slavery helped to save this institution, i started looking at the priests and looking at this history and what i learned was it wasnt just georgetown, they built in the early Catholic Church first in the british colony and in early america. And these priests, the first archdiocese, the first cathedral, early convents, priests who operated plantations and sold people built the first catholic seminary. So, the underpinnings were built by priests who were deeply involved in slavery. Within the book, the Catholic Church as we know it today would not exist. Thats right. One of the other things that struck me about the book is that you describe how oppression led to oppression. How interwoven the various forms of oppression have been, and i find that very interesting. And of course upsetting, but could you talk a little bit about the Catholic Church and its attitude toward, the attitude to the Indigenous People and the transformation of the attitude kind of led to its acceptance of the enslavement of people of african descent, which i found was fascinating. What was really fascinating about the Catholic Church, and we should be very clear that its not just the Catholic Church, it is the protestant church, too. But the Catholic Priest, they were like people that viewed them as pure and we want to nurture their souls but we are okay with enslaving them and selling their bodies, and people said how is that possible and what did rome have to say . And that is what michelle is getting at. It is interesting, slavery is an ancient practice as we know, it is in the bible, st. Paul talking about the response abilities of slaves and masters. When europeans went into africa and then into the americas, they enslaved Indigenous People initially. And there were protests by priests. And rome said okay, we wont do that. But, there was still this insatiable need for labor. So, africans filled the gap and the church went silent about africans, too. And if you want to look at the nature of oppression, the priest who came to maryland came from england where they were persecuted, catholics were persecuted and maryland was a refuge for catholics. But, in trying to be recognized as an established of society, slavery was a part of the society, that is what it was and they became a part of that. Its important to know that there were voices who raised questions. There were priests all along the way who had concerns about it. And also, one of the other things i found fascinating about the book was at times when catholics were persecuted, im not sure if that is the right word, but marginalized within the politics of maryland, because protestants wouldnt work for them, once again, they turned to enslaved africans in order to save their properties and their livelihoods. You shared that you also identify as catholic from birth, i assume. Yes. So, do you mind if i ask, how this reporting, how did it influence your faith, did it challenge you in any way . So, i think, its interesting, i was doing this work, im catholic, im a practicing catholic. And im going through these records, and some of these, ive been doing this kind of research for a long time, but bracing records, getting used to seeing, if you are writing about enslaved people, you are writing about people who were viewed as property. That is what you are looking for. You are looking for tax records, you are looking for property records. You see these estate records that list the coffee table, the tablecloth, the dishes and the list of human beings. That is sobering. But, you know, what has been interesting to me is the families themselves and the experience of the families themselves. I told the story of one family in particular, the mahoney family, and the matriarch of that family, and it was in the 1600s, and she is a free person , she tells anybody who will listen, she holds onto the one thing she has which is her story, and she tells anyone that she should have been freed and her liberty was stolen. And she tells her children that, her grandchildren that, that story is passed on to people in her family resist, some of them are executed. They go to court, they sued the jesuits. So, some of them are freed that way, some of them dont. And he garners a pledge from the jesuits that neither he or his family will be sold, that is a pledge that is broken in 1838. So at times, the priests were requiring black people to go to mass to participate in the sacraments. There were penalties for not doing that. Theres an instance where two families, a priest had decided that two families who had engaged in infidelity should be punished. After the civil war, what did families do . You would ask, would you stay catholic, and they would split up your families . Interestingly, a number of people stayed, thousands left because the church remained segregated afterwards. But members of the mahoney family, many of them stayed. Not only did they stay, but they became leaders, some of them because im religious became religious leaders. They remained true to their church, they set up black parishes, they became nuns and ran schools for black children. Some of the descendents are catholic to this day and those records, those sacramental records have been really important to genealogists and to myself, in terms of tracking these families. And these descendents who are among us now, many of them still catholic have been in the forefront of pressing the church and georgetown to recognize this history. So, i look at those folks and in a crazy way, i find some inspiration. I see folks who said to themselves, this church does not belong to this man who are in it. This church, they dont control god, they dont control the holy spirit, none of that. And they decided to make it their church, and to me, that inspires me, so im still going. I want to remind you that this is a conversation that we can all participate in. My recommendation would be that we are going to turn to questions from you in a minute or two. So if you have a thought you want to share, if you would perhaps begin making your way to the microphone. And you mentioned youre not a historian, but historians and journalists are basically in conversation with each other, and i would like to ask, i dont know what the appropriate digital term would be, is that even nothing . Im not even using that word. But, this wasnt really how you got started in journalism, right . You got started to chronicle what is around you right now, not what happened 300, 400 years ago. So i was interested, was there any part of yourself that you had to transform in order to do this work, or change your practice in some way . There was a lot of learning involved, i realized there was so much about American History, even as a recently educated person, that i just did not know. I have always been a records person, i covered courts early in my career, local courts and federal courts. So ive always been a records person. As a journalist, records have been kind of important to me and interesting to me, so i had to learn a whole swath of records. But, i have also been somebody who always loved a good mystery in the hunt for me is really interesting. And it was really when i got started on the article that led me to the book about Michelle Obama. I was searching for her great, great grandfather who was born into slavery and was biracial and i had gone to a cemetery and i was amazed i could go to the archives and find where he was buried, the plot, the number, i thought i had everything, i had it all together. Then i got to the cemetery and it was in birmingham, this old neglected African American cemetery, with the grass up to my knees and the tombstones toppled and many of you might know, even the dead were segregated back in the day. So, i spent an entire day completely unsuccessful, i never found his tombstone. But there was something about that, just something that grabbed me and i thought, you know, actually there is nothing i would rather be doing. And i came home to my husband and i said good lord, i dont know what happened, something happened to me out there, maybe i need to get another degree. And he said, maybe not that. Like we have a mortgage and stuff, like what are you doing . But, when the publisher approached me after that story ran, he said okay, thats the thing. So it was just, i dont know, this weird thing that just got me. I joke it is my midlife crisis about the 19th century. I dont know. Lets go to your questions and thoughts now. Please come and join us. And we would love to know who you are, once again. Yes, my name is nathan, and im a recent graduate of montgomery college, and i now live overseas and im hoping to teach American History in schools overseas and that is something that i really feel very passionately about. I began reading the book, and one thing that struck me in particular was reading about the story of solomon, in particular about the very emotional details of his homecoming. What i was wondering, in the course of your research, what did you think, what did you believe to be among the most striking parallels and contrast between the story of solomon good question, for those of you, he was a free black man and was kidnapped, so he was sold back into slavery in the Southern States immunized themselves for having to pay compensation for those who are wrongly enslaved, so his story is very instructive , because as i mentioned, one of the challenges when you are writing about enslaved people is the material, frankly. It is really hard to find the material. Enslaved people were by law and by practice barred from learning to read and write, so the kinds of things you would rely on, letters, journals and that kind of thing are not there. So you are looking for those records that i mentioned. And youre also looking for contemporary voices of people at the time, who can illuminate something for you. He was shipped to louisiana and wrote very vividly about a lot of things, about what new orleans was like, about what the plantation life is like, and that was very instructive. He also wrote about being reunited with his family. And unfortunately that was not something that happened to the two sisters who were split by the sale. But, his experience was very helpful and you get to hear his voice which is helpful. Thank you. Im visiting from new york, great talk, im wondering, i will also be reading about the Catholic Church and whether there was an overlap, coming out with the boarding schools, so did that all happen under the same Church Organization . I think you are talking about the indigenous yeah. Im glad you mentioned that because i would not want the introduction of that for people to think that Indigenous People were so beautifully treated, because we were not seen in the way in which, the operative phrase was, kill the indian to save the man. Just her and is obvious that people were subjected to physically, emotionally and spiritually. And all of that is coming to light now and the truth is, i dont have an answer for you. I wish i did, i dont. But, you know, i can certainly see and ask the same kind of questions because it certainly feels like there are parallels there. I could see the parallel of being, people who thought they had the authority to develop different grades of humanity. You are at this level of human and this level, and if you are this level, this is what you get. That seems to be and you know, tearing families apart. And destroying their culture and substituting your own, you determined it is superior. Others who would like to join us in the conversation . I just wanted to mention that michelle also was on nightline for decades. I was 12, so that doesnt really count. Anyway, where do i begin here, you know, selling slaves, i mean, they sold slaves to stay in business, and then the priest molested thousands and thousands of children. I have a really hard time with this. Aware are you going with this . Im just saying, it is striking, even the cardinal who was the cardinal of the district of columbia, now he is reindicted for what he did. And its like, did the people have no shame . Its okay to sell slaves, it is okay to molest kids . I dont know, what is religion about if this is what you do when you are a religious person. I dont know. I was wondering if any of this, if any of these slaves, many slaves were impregnated and things like that. Any of this come into your story line, you know, with some of the slave owners, does this ever come up . My book doesnt deal at all with the scandals in the church. And there is a lot of work in journalism, very important work that has been done to expose that. And i would say, what i do is try to show kind of how slavery fueled the growth of the church, what the priest did and how they treated people. Again, the fact that it wasnt just the Catholic Church, episcopal church, with all the protestant churches, i mean, this was sadly, it was what was happening at the time. But you know, it is an ugly, ugly history. Theres no way around it. And the reason why it shocked me was because enslaved people have been allegedly out of the story that the Catholic Church traditionally tells about itself. And that is true. Its also true and important to note that as i mentioned before, there were priests who raised questions and concerns about this. And its important because one thing that you often hear when you are talking about slavery or studying slavery is people who say dont bring your morality to the table here. It was legal, it was the time, so you cant bring your 21st century judgments to it. But the truth is, within the Catholic Church, at the time, there were priests who were raising questions, they were protesting and one of the priests i read about in the book is a guy by the name of Joseph Carberry, he ran a plantation where this mahoney family was enslaved, and when he learned that the sale was coming, he objected and when he was overruled, when the traders came, he encouraged members of the family to run. What is complicated about that, i think gosh, Joseph Carberry, but some of the mahoneys, i mentioned the two sisters, luisa runs with her mother and hides in the woods. The ships leave and take her sister, and other family members away. And lisa and her mother returned to the plantation where they were welcomed back by Joseph Carberry into slavery where they remained. She was one of the last people in the records enslaved by the jesuits. So, it was a complicated situation. But, unfortunately, it just wasnt within the purview of the reporting that i did. Did they ever apologize . Yes. Who else would like to join the conversation . Hello. My name is Kyla Matthews and im the fourth great granddaughter of luis mahoney, im also advising at georgetown law right now. And from what i have experienced, i would say that the university is more responsive, or they tend to be more reactive than proactive in their accountability efforts, and they are especially motivated by the media and press print so im wondering from the point of view of a journalist what you think the most effective way to kind of keep and preserve this narrative, and keep attention on the story would be, just with our collective Attention Span the way it is. So, that is a good question, just in case some of you dont know, in 2016, one of the things that georgetown did was offer what is a legacy status, preface and admissions to descendents or interesting interested in going to georgetown. As you know, they created an institute which is now coming online, and then created a fund, students protested and said you know, georgetown, you need to do more for these descendents and they had a referendum and said we will tax ourselves in effect. We will institute of fee to raise money for descendents because they felt the university should do more for the University Said no, we are not going to do that but we are going to raise 400,000 per year for programs that benefit descendents. That program just got underway this year and 200,000 has been distributed. The jesuits for their part and georgetown both apologized, jesuits parton with a group of descendents and promised to raise 100 million to benefit racial reconciliation programs and programs for descendents. That would be the largest effort made by the roman Catholic Church in america to address this history. It has had a slow start, they have not raised as much money as they hoped and as you might imagine, descendents have mixed feelings about all of these things. And they are asking, could more be done . How should this look . They have their own ideas about how this should look. The question you ask is how to kind of keep them focused on what needs to happen. Im a journalist, so im not in the advocacy, you know, that is not what i do. But, i certainly can say from experience and just in this story, pressure from students in raising attention to issues involving descendents have certainly drawn Media Attention and we have done a lot of that and that sometimes can be helpful. I would say, georgetown has been criticized on all sides by defendants, by people who think they need to do more, and by the alums, who think where are you going with this . What is certainly true is that georgetown and the jesuits have been right in the thick of what is now a growing Movement Among institutions and municipalities around the country to acknowledge and try to grapple with this history, we are talking about laces like evanston and the state of california. So this is all happening here, and i never thought i would see it and the question you are asking, how do we make them do more . I think part of that is what you guys have done as descendents, which is, when my first story ran, only the georgetown memory project, the independent nonprofit identified a handful of descendents, they are no known, at least 6000 descendents. When people found out this history, and you can imagine, finding out this kind of history that your ancestors were sold to this institution, people, i like to say people raged and then they organized. I think that organization and that pressure has had an impact. Let me ask you this because weve had two questions about the history and the teaching of history, what role history should play in that moment. Your book arrives at a moment of intense backlash about even teaching history, this kind of history and institutions, not just in colleges and people being fired for showing classic works. And you talked about the fact that you started this work, your initial article landed before some of it became sort of polarizing, but your book lands in a moment where literally people are getting thrown out of the classroom because one person complained or one person doesnt like it. Im interested in your take on that. We all know that history is a battleground right now and particularly history involving race and history involving the teaching about race and slavery. And for me, even when i first wrote the first article into 16, this kind of work felt urgent. It feels even more urgent to me now. Did it feel dangerous . No. There are colleagues who are no longer allowed to address this, i have done interviews but they wont let us know what city they are in, because of fear for their family, that is a fact. Im just curious if that feels fraught, i mean, you were very interested open and receptive to what rachel has had to say and the work she has done. I guarantee you it might not be the same in other places. As journalist, i think we are all more mindful then we might have been a couple years ago. Certainly i should say that members of my family have thought about it and worried about it in terms of where this lands and how people respond. But as i said, to me, it feels urgent and i cant shy away from doing the work. But im also realistic and mindful and careful. My name is fred, and i was driving to the Grocery Store and i decided to turn on fresh air, terry gross, and you were on and i was feeling great, it was a wonderful day, and 15 minutes or less, i really got into the story, and 30 minutes or less, i started getting angry. 45 minutes i was furious. So, to piggyback on some of the comments. At 45 minutes, if i got that angry, how do you do your Research Without gritting your teeth along the way . And, with the university, that is widespread, who benefited from slavery, with affirmative action coming down soon, how do the universities stay compelled, since race is the focal point, with the decision, if it comes down against affirmative action, does that handcuff the universities with this legacy issue that you have exposed . Is this all of a sudden a different kind of issue, not the courts, but the schools, will they be handcuffed now because of the decision, where now we have legitimate reasons why this legitimacy for us, anyway, you know what im talking about. Youve got two questions, one is about how do you do this work, and as i mentioned, its not easy work to do. There are times where i come across a document, i read something, and i just have to just stop. I have to take a breath. I have to close my eyes, take another breath, and i keep going because we need to know. If i dont look, and if i look away, then you know, i think this work needs to be done. When you get up the next morning, is it difficult to approach, knowing what you are about to get into . So, heres the thing, you are right, it is heartbreaking. It is terrifying. I mean, sometimes what i do, and as a journalist, to be able to tell the story, i need to put myself there. So, ive had conversations with my son who is a teenager and i think about those sisters, luisa and anna and the priest telling them, youve got to run. Anna had two young children. They had elderly parents. What do you do . Do you run . You know, those things away on me. But, the thing that is important to know is that this is a story of heartbreak for sure. But, it is also a story of resistance and struggle, it is also a story of family and faith. And remember that i came to this as someone, a catholic woman who had never heard the Catholic Priest enslaved anybody, i have never heard anything, i did not know about these people. So, i was very motivated and inspired to tell a story that i felt had not been told. Enslaved people had been left out of the story. So that is what kept me going. We have about five people who would like to be a part of the conversation, i would say affirmative action, im a professor at nyu, colleges across the country are bracing for this. It is not a part of my purview, but you are right, a lot of institutions are going to be trying to figure out what to do. And i will move it along. I asked terry that question, because some of her books are so deeply disturbing in the details and i said its hard for you to write these stories, and she said not as hard as it was to live them. How is everyone this evening, my name is julie hawkins, im from Southern Maryland, my net mom was from st. Marys. I grew up strictly catholic, where i came from, that was the seat of catholicism, i didnt know the religion until i left st. Marys to go to college. Catholicism wasnt really a religion for us, it is our way of life. So i didnt hear about this story until about 2015. I was on ancestry, and our history was, we are from Southern Maryland, nowhere else. I kept connecting with somebody touting louisiana and alabama and we went back and forth, well i know youre from the deep south, but to make the story short, about 2016 i started hearing about the gu2. And my son was also at gonzaga. With the students there, they started doing their own research of the people of gonzaga. My son came home and said mom, they are talking about your home, st. Marys county and the priest sold people from Southern Maryland. My grandmother had just died, we came from a family, i mean, i would have white friends coming down because they thought we were part of italian because we would say the rosary every day, that is just what we would do. All of you catholics know what i mean. And richard was a friend of mine, i started talking with richard and he started filling me in, but heres the thing for me, being from Southern Maryland, im not a part of the familys that were sold, we were the families that lost family. And we wanted to find them. I got money from georgetown to do a gathering in Southern Maryland over labor day weekend, so anybody that would like to come as a descendent, we will welcome you. Because the maryland side, we are still trying to figure out people that we lost. But im hawkins, we have dorsey, we have mason, and we are still in maryland, but let me tell you this, when i found this i was so glad, my grandmother had just passed, because she would have been devastated. It was our way of life, and when i found out, i would cry, i became angry and i even thought about leaving the Catholic Church. Im catholic to this day, my entire family. I had to talk myself through it, but just like she said, i grew up five miles from Newtown Manor, about 10 miles from the plantations. We never heard this story at all, i went to catholic school. I had priests and nuns, i came from a community that was very, you know, they honored their black history, we never heard this story. I never heard of it. Never. We never heard it from the priests or the jesuits, and now that i think about it, they wouldnt want you to know. I was even wondering, for my grandmother, i was wondering, because there was so much trauma that they just didnt talk about it and as the generations went on, it just went away. Because im from Southern Maryland, im from all these areas. I feel like there is a book you might consider. Everybody keeps telling me that. Did you have a specific question . I just wanted to share that. Did you think it was trauma that we didnt know about this . Theres some families where people have told me they felt their elders deliberately did not tell them. I will say this, my grandfather used to tell me, and his family actually grew up at Newtown Manor but they were free people of color, but he is to tell me that his great grandmother would always say, you know they sold some of us down the road. And i had no idea what that was until this happened and i think he was talking about that. Thank you for sharing. My question is quick. I would like to know, because you are a journalist and you say because you are a journalist, you direct your information on this, what i wanted to know, once you started this book, once it was exposed, what kind of dialogue did you have with the interaction you had, because you had this exposure and everybody particular in america knows this is a hidden story that is not being told. So you are telling the story, so im wanting to know, as far as like with your backlash, or no, what is your position to bring it further for more accountability for the Catholic Church, just like georgetown has the endowment and i understand, giving out scholarships or whatever, this is not compared to what has happened to the people. Because im wondering, you have the direct line to be having a dialogue with them. Have you had that, and if you had, what was the outcome or what is being actually done, just not what they are getting to the people that are enslaved because in america, most of us were enslaved. So again, im a journalist so i dont get involved with directing policy, or even advocating for things. What i am very involved in and what i care about in the next stage of my work. Im working on creating a digital archive, where its not just universities or the Catholic Church, its other organizations. Ar, community ar, me mbers, families can see them and then take steps that they want to take that communities want to they can take the steps they want to take, that communities want to take. It is not my role, as a journalist. So what you are saying is that there was no actual direct interaction with the diocese. No one is asking me or georgetown, hey, rachel, what should we do . It is not the role that i play. You wrote the book so it is exposure for people that do want to take it further. That is right. There is something similar in the united kingdom, where people have fortunes that were built on enslavement. There was a journalist who actually left the bbc when she realized that, you know, her family had been enslaved, and she wanted to dig in further. She decided that would be her focus. Just pull it down. Okay. They work. Rachel, i want to publicly acknowledge and thank you. We talked in may of 2016 after the article with cousin maxine. I wanted to thank you. I know that article has 1 million questions that i had at the time. Thank god a lot of them had been answered. The point i wanted to make clear, is that i felt like i won the lottery. For people who may read that article, i wanted to share it is emotional. My family was some of the family that was taken to louisiana. How i won the lottery i have had so much family loss that wouldve loved to know this history. Now, i have cousin julie. I have cousin peggy. I have cousin jeremy. I have cousin kevin porter. One of the things that has happened is that the families have found each other. These families have found each other. That is the return on that story. We are reunited. This is stellar in the African American community. This typically does not happen. It continues to happen every day. Like julie said, our hearts beat as one. We are going to find as many as we can. We are going to come together, as many as we can. For the lady before, that is how we impacted how to deal with this history. Not only on a national, but on a world level. And i think this will be our final interview. Id like you to kind of give us a concluding thought after this lady shares her thoughts with us. Give us your take. I want to thank you, and im looking forward to your archive of records. My family name is also the name kemp. Given the exchange and trafficking of people, i know that more records will be useful to me, too. That research is hard to do. I wanted to push back gently on this concept that it was oppression that bred oppression, as people came down centuries before. I wanted to know what you think of that. If you could expand on that when you say that. Well, you said earlier that the priest somewhat, you know, they had employed people they had enslaved people. That is something i was saying. It was interesting to me that i learned was how well, dont we see this in the world today . You are angry and afraid, so you will oppress somebody else . That became the mode of operation, versus it being because they oppressed. Im just pushing back on that. We are feeling like they wanted to join the society that was pushing them away. That kind of thing . They did talk about that. They did talk about wanting to be there. The truth is that it was the economy. You are right. They were very explicit about what their intentions were, and why they were doing this. Both in terms of rome, in terms of enslaving people. It is part of conquest. It was about money. And with the sale, even, the priest who was pushing the hardest for it had a vision of building schools in the northeast. He was very clear that in order to do that, he would need money, and the jesuits would need money to do it, and this was the way they were going to do it. Thank you. So rachel, thank you for spending this evening with us. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for spending time with us. I know you are going to sign some books. I wonder if i could ask you to leave us with a concluding thought. There is so much here. As he said, it is a story of heartbreak. It is a story of love. It is a story of resistance. It is a family of a family broken apart by violence. Families brought together to love. I was just wondering about that. You said that so nicely yourself. You would just give us a concluding thought. You closed your laptop at night and when you thought about this project and what it meant to you and the families, what comes to mind . Youre going to go on to another project at some point, but im just saying, what has this meant to you . I think it is important. I think it is important for these folks that are long gone to be seen, and to be recognized, and to be acknowledged. I think it is important for us as americans to understand that this is our history. I think the work that i do i am different from a historian in that i am very engaged with the past. Im engaged with the past because im really interested in how we live with this history and what we do with it. I think what matters to me is that we are mindful of it. That we interrogate history. That we dont just, you know, journalists are accustomed to this. If the ceo is asking questions, ask questions about the history that you have been taught. Why is it that you dont know things . I think just recognizing these folks and having them seen is really important. Rachel swarns , all of you, thank you so much for being here. If you are enjoying American History tv, signup for our newsletter, using the qr code on the screen to receive the weekly schedule of upcoming programs, like lectures on history, the presidency, and more. Sign up for the American History newsletter today. Be sure to watch American History tv every saturday, or anytime online at cspan. Org history. Weekends on cspan 2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday, American History tv documents americas story. 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