Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jeff 20240703

And welcome to politics and prose. Im brad graham im the coowner of the bookstore along with my wife, melissa muscatine and were very pleased to be hosting a Jeff Benedict whos here to talk about his new book lebron jeffs had quite a varied career. He practiced for a while and was active in politics, even ran for congress and in connecticut a couple of decades ago and then worked to to limit gambling in that state. Hes been a journalist writing for such publications as Sports Illustrated and the Los Angeles Times. And along the way, hes authored coauthored more than a dozen works of nonfiction. But these have included bestselling books about tiger woods and the new England Patriots, as well as a legal thriller, pink house, about a landmark case on Eminent Domain and poisoned about the biggest Food Poisoning outbreak in the United States. Hes also had a hand in producing or movies based on some of his books. His new biography about lebron james is about someone who, of course, of many of us think we already know and about whom much has been. But jeff has produced what reviewers are calling the definitive of this successful sports and the book not just thorough and thoughtful but also written vividly and engagingly as the Los Angeles Times put it, the book, quote, doesnt miss a shot. So i expect were in for a very illuminating discussion this evening in conversation with jeff will be Timothy Bella was a staff writer editor at the Washington Post with the papers general assignment team, focusing on breaking news. A team actually helped research jeffs book early on and then went off to write a biography of his own about another nba legend, charles, which came out last year. Tim is currently working on a second book, this one about actor and filmmaker sylvester stallone. So, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Jeff Benedict and tim beller. Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate again and jeff, this is just incredible because we met how many years back, now its 2010. I think it was 2010 . Yeah. And i was in a rough spot. I had just no experience. I the industry was terrible and, yet i gravitated toward people like jeff who gave you a chance. And now im. Im stable, an unstable world. So thank you so much. And this is also just a really cool opportunity for me because in high school when lebron james was, a senior, i was a totally a junior and i would see this guy on, espn, and i always amazed i had never seen anything like him before. And the fact that hes lived up to those expectations and exceeded them, its incredible. And its all captured here in this book. Kids, an amazing book. I really urge anyone to. Hasnt gotten it to go check it out. So just kind of started off jeff i know youve done tiger woods youve done the two England Patriots and including tom brady that obviously so i guess what appealed to you so much to take on our biggest topic. Well right now the biggest athlete right now lebron james. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting us here to your store and to the audience for coming and spending hour with us. For me, to be honest lebron wasnt my idea. I wish i could take credit for it because it is a fantastic idea for a book and a biography. But both lebron and tiger woods were ideas that were brought to me by my publisher, my literary in between i did the patriots was my idea and something that i had wanted to do for a long time. But after doing tiger and the patriots, lebron to me was the only male athlete left in america, i think we could say, is in the conversation for greatest of all time in his sport right now. Think tiger fit that for golf. Tom brady fits that for football and lebron fits that for basketball. And i think probably serena is the one other person who that for tennis and so it just an opportunity that to me as soon as it was presented i thought this is its so obvious and sometimes the best ideas are right in front of us and we miss them. But the other thing about lebron that appealed to me right away was that hes so much more an athlete and theres so much more to him now that theres nothing wrong with only being a transcendent athlete. But in lebrons case, there is so much more to the man than the sport. The fact that he is involved has been involved in politics and social activism in Building School and forming a friendship with barack obama, getting involved in the arts and entertainment, building a production company. There were all these other things that to me is his entry into fashion world that i dont know that i would have been as if it was just going to be a basketball book about a great basketball player. But the fact that lebron had so much more texture to his life was exciting. There were so many things i enjoyed about this book, jeff and one of the big themes in this book was family. Whether it be the relationship with his mother, the ship with his wife his best friends, how he took them all and they made. Into 1,000,000,000 athlete and you also talk about the father figures in his life and how he not know who his by other is and he doesnt care by the along the way he found that male mentorship in so many different people in who into very different people. The first one is Warren Buffett and the second one is if youre jayz and and for her somewhat like that the basketball player still in his. Twenties how and did he gravitate toward someone like jayz or someone like Warren Buffett who were much older and had a lot of experience that he did. How did that happen . Well i think in the case of a case gravitating towards jayz, its just more of that when lebron is a you know, as a kid and a young teenager like a lot of his peers and friends, he loved his music and. Its very similar to why would he gravitate towards Michael Jordan . Because he idolized him and so what was unique was that as a he had the opportunity to meet, which most teenagers wouldnt have opportunity. Lebron had that opportunity solely because he was such an exceptionally talented at a young age that. Jayz took the time to come and watch, play live and remarkably he when when lebron goes straight from high school to professional basketball, he you know, he passes go and doesnt stop because he never everybody knew he would never go to college because he was too good and whats remarkable is that that summer between when he was drafted as, the number one pick, and when he played first game in the fall as a cleveland cavalier, he did something that would never happen today, which is he went and played on jayzs, you know, private team in new york city. They a league that jayz had a team in and they played for something the chip and these teams were basically loaded up by, you know, a lot of a lot local players in new york city that were playground legends. But back then, you know, jayz was trying to recruit some some real ringers and recruited lebron to come and play that summer on his team, new york, that kind of craziness would never work today with the way the nba controls. But that was the start of a genuine friendship, because that summer he hung out with lebron a lot i mean, with jayz a lot. And they actually a real relationship that wasnt just a famous kid athlete and a famous, you know, rapper, hip hop artist who were hanging around because famous people like to hang around with each other. They actually became truly friends. Warren buffett is a totally different thing. I mean, Warren Buffett isnt someone that lebron idolized as a teenager, but within very short time after signing a 90 Million Contract with nike, when he was 18 years old and, a massive contract with the Cleveland Cavaliers and other endorsement deals. Lebron was a lot smarter than most entertainers. Never mind athletes, all entertainers in trying to surround himself with advisors who are experts in things like how to invest money, how to protect your how to do things other just do endorsement deals which athletes do, but how do you actually do something besides that like maybe own a piece of the company and one of the people who is advising him very early was had a great relationship with buffett. Lebron wanted to meet him and. His advisor brokered that meeting and lebron took the initiative to to omaha to meet with him, you know, went to his office, spent a day with him and started a what grew into a legitimate friendship and lebron did all that when he was 20 years old. And so if you think i mean those us in the room who are a little older and you think back what were you thinking about doing when you were 18, 19 and 20 . Its fair to say he was more mature, i think, than a lot people his age. He certainly more mature at that age than i was at that age. I was terrible that age. Just for the record. Yeah. And the there is a third person he gravitates toward its as in obama and in center obama two and at that point lebron had not honed on his political voice he had really found it yet and yet he heres what obama says when he runs around oh wait and again in 2012 and in the ingrates him and opens up his mind a way he hadnt before and it was pretty this book its a reminder of how that relationship was so special, so important to him that age. Tell me, how did that influence him . It was actually it in terms of how he about politics that and social issues. So i think when you when you look at the the formation of lebrons relationship with barack obama, this actually takes us back to his relation with jayz. And it actually supports the idea that this wasnt what i said a minute ago celebrity famous people hanging around each other. What im about to say will sort of illustrate why relationship had real significance to it in the beginning of his basketball career, which when lebron becomes a pro, hes 18 years old. He is a teenager. Hes not knowledgeable in the area of politics hes never had a need to be like 18 year olds. Hes not really paying attention to that, particularly because his life at this point is so focused on the fact he is being compared to Michael Jordan. Hes got this mantle on his shoulders, which is Sports Illustrated has deemed him, the chosen one, the heir apparent to air jordan, the expectations that are on this kid are on in professional sports. Michael jordan didnt have those expectations on him when he joined the nba. Tom certainly didnt have them when. He came in. The closest thing was, maybe tiger woods who had those similar, but i would say not as much. No one was saying hes going to be the next Jack Nicklaus and so lebron was focused on that, rightly so. The first time he really encounters is in thousand six, when were now in the run up to the beijing olympics, which are going to take place in 2008. And in the run up to the beijing, there are groups that are meeting actually in this city, washington, d. C. , and theyre planning you could even say, plotting how they leverage the olympics to put pressure on china for human rights abuses in various parts of the world, one of those being sudan. And and so one of those groups that was very well organized and had good leaders, they actually connected with one member of the Cleveland Cavaliers, guy player i renewably, who was a bench player, a great guy, but was a bench player that most people wouldnt know by name unless you were diehard cavs fan at the time. Newby was very interested in civil rights and human rights and he signed on to help this organization put a spotlight on what was on in sudan and use olympics to do it. And so one of these groups helped ira craft a letter that he then asked all of his teammates on the Cleveland Cavaliers to sign. And the letter really kind of called out china because of what was going on in sudan to. Be honest, none of these players, including ira, knew anything. What was going on in sudan. Ira was educated by this group, but he was so struck by that. He said, yeah, ill write that letter and ill get my teammates to sign it. And this is where it starts to get dicey for lebron and is not a knock on i renewably. But when youre the 12th player on the bench and you have the largest shoe contract in sports its easier to sign up for Something Like this because what you say doesnt cause International News if lebron says something about this its similar if someone in the president S Administration nation says something about it, its going to be an international story. Lebron didnt know anything about sudan. He didnt know anything about chinas to it. In fact his friend Warren Buffett was asked about the same thing because Warren Buffetts company, berkshire hathaway, one of the companies they invested, was a Petro Company that was connected to this arms and going on in sudan and basically buffetts answer to all the shareholders, yeah, were not going change what we do. So unfortunate whats going on over there, but doesnt really affect us. And thats it. But lebron not to sign the letter he was and he and one other player on the team were the only two that didnt. And as soon as he that the New York Times covered it and every other newspaper in media outlet in the United States and became a problem for him because he was ripping to lee questioned about why he didnt sign it mind you this is going on in the middle of the nba playoffs that hes getting hit with this and then he has what some people would say is the greatest game. His career in the middle. All this against the detroit pistons. Lebron has the game his life where he literally is. Its like one of the few times where one man beats five. And it is a stunning performance that makes everybody about sudan and china for a season. Then the olympics come and when lebron actually goes to beijing it starts up all over again. And this time he basically takes the position he, says two things. First, he says, i dont know enough about this to talk about it, which, by the way, was true. And number two, you shouldnt mix sports and politics. Thats the more controversial statement where hes going to end up. So thats that. Now, heres the thing. Thats the summer 2008. Think about hes in beijing dealing with this think about whats happening in america in the summer of oh eight, barack obama is on a run to the house that looks like it might actually happen. And when lebron comes back from beijing with the gold, heres where jayz comes in. Jayz was very motivated to barack obama win and the white house. He talked too openly about the idea that a black man would occupy the white house would be unthinkable when he was a teenager. If someone had said that to him, then he would have thought, you were crazy. But here it looked. It could actually happen. And so he decided to do series of concerts in support of Barack Obamas in different cities right up before the election. The last one was in cleveland, and lebron agreed to go and participate in concert and speak to what would be essentially a sold out auditorium which just happened to be the same auditorium where the cavaliers their home games and thats the first time that lebron actually took a political on anything and he told the audience he was voting for barack he told the audience this was the most important election of their lifetime. Jayz said similar thing and lebron encouraged everyone there to get their arms, their uncles and their moms and their sisters and everybody to go out and vote that thats his entry point to, of course, obama does when he does capture the white house and then he does something that no american president had ever done before, was he then turns nba players not lebron, but a bunch of nba players, including retired players like Magic Johnson and seeks their help in some of his his his basically his domestic agenda one of which was health care and. He gets people like lebron to do Public Service announcements because they realize that one of the groups that was most and not participating in the website to sign up was the minority where lebron had influence. Thats why he did the the ad and this is a guy getting paid millions of dollars to commercials he did these commercials for free because this wasnt about money and the republicans like Mitch Mcconnell and some of the guys in the house they didnt like the fact that obama using these celebrity athletes to move the needle but thats over eight years that barack was in the white house. Lebron, i would say grew up and i say that in a complimentary way. Think about going to school with the president of the United States as a guy who could truthfully say in 27, i dont know enough to talk about this to to get a point eight years later where he is the lead voice on. I cant breathe on gun violence on talking about Police Brutality and minority communities but not in a way attacks the police. I that takes a lot of skill to to walk that line lebron james never attacked he never said defund them he never really criticized them he actually just talked about what its like to be in his community he did some what i would call very diplomatic that came in my at least from the benefit of watching one of the most skilled political weve had in the last 50 years. He watched him and he saw how a perfect example. I mean when Trayvon Martin was shot for wearing a hooded sweatshirt, the president didnt attack people. He just pointed out he had sons. They would look like. And of course, lebron is in a position where he does have sons and they do look like that. And so i that to me, one of the most remarkable things about the obama years was watching maturation of a young james who in my mind is he is an older lebron james and im not really about calendar years here im talking about how much he aged in terms of his political skills in diplomacy lebrons not a flamethrower there are certain celebrities who when they speak out they alienate everybody lebron has never been about that and some people would Trump Supporters would say wow. But if you look at the and you really want to look at the facts lebron was in credibly disciplined with with donald trump. Most months and i would even say for a year he never used his name when he was asked about him. He just talked about issues and eventually it got to the point where it was impossible not to invoke name. But i would say he was very disciplined. Are you looking at my notes the way. No, im not looking at your notes, bill. It all of these topics here. Speaking of donald, since youre on that topic now, you take me back actually to the first time that trump publicly engages with lebron james, and this is actually during his free agency and in the book, there is just a great story about. Donald trump and the actual pitch he tried to make to lebron james to become a new york knick. What happened there, jeff . Oh. My friend, lebron lebron. So in 2010, this is actually the reason i like this story so much is because it isnt political and its actually hilarious in many respects and incredible entertaining, which is a big reason hes in the book, to be quite honest. But in 2010, a bunch of teams were campaigning and competing for lebron services. It was a great situation. Lebron and you know, the New York Knicks were, one of those teams that were competing to win lebron over and get him to come and they were trying to figure out what could they offer besides, you know, the contracts going be the same pretty much no matter where he goes. So what can the knicks do that the other cant . And the knicks really leaned the fact that its the big apple, its new york city, its a Media Capital of the world its, you know, the glitz, the glamor the you know, all the stuff that could happen for lebrons off the court career if was in new york and theres some validity to that. The fact is i dont think any of that really appealed to lebron he wanted thing which was he wanted to win championships but the knicks this idea that they were going to pitch lebron by making a film where they took all the biggest celebrities in new york and basically got them to go on camera and talk lebron about why he should become a nick come to new york. And so they got, you know, Robert De Niro and mark messier and Rudy Giuliani and it just everybody, all these actors, Harvey Weinstein mean james gandolfini. James. Well, edie falco. Yeah. James gandolfini was the best one because kind fini had been off the air. Sopranos had been off the air for for three years. And fascinating. And i made this connection in the book is the last episode of the sopranos aired at the same time that lebron was playing in his first nba finals as a cavalier. They they got swept in that series but it i use it to say you know the sopranos and tony soprano and was going off the stage as lebron was really taking the american stage in oh seven. Now we get oh ten and lebron loves the by the way, he loves mob movies and like the godfather and he likes gandolfini. And the knicks asked gandolfini if he would be in this film. But the difference with gandolfini, everyone else is just talking. Lebron, they wanted gandolfini to do a bit like get back in as tony, like hes coming out of the Witness Protection Program because we all know how that show ended, dont know what happened. And so he agreed to do it and so did edie falco go back in and character and filmmaker goes to new york and. They hired a great documentary filmmaker to do this and he interviewed them in tonys apartment. Its a great im not going to tell you what happens because you got to get that out of the book. But the trump part is trump was one of the people that that they approached about getting in film. So when they go to trump tower to do this in the book, youll see trump. Theyre very specific in instructions about the lighting and the hair gel and all the foolishness that goes on. But basically also the impatience of it when he sits down, how long is this going to be . And what are we doing . You know, what are we doing . And its like were trying convince lebron to come to that oh my. But my friend lebron, you know, its all this ridiculous ness because particularly whats going to happen five years later, you know, its like its funny now, but its not going to be funny in years. And i think what i thought you were going to ask me, tim, when you said the first time i, thought you going to ask me the first time that lebron and trump intersect politically. I was going ask you about that next. Yeah, actually. But so with her jokes, do stop once trump gets in office. Obviously there is lot of talk. I will. Trump is in office targeted at Colin Kaepernick and actually steph curry as well, who speaks out about not showing up to the white house and is a lebron famously saying you bomb on social toward the president. It kind of started this rivalry between the president and one of the worlds most famous athletes that we just havent before and never witnessed ever so as you are actually breaking this down, jeff, how do you dissect what unfolds with a president who was always and an athlete is lebron who does read a lot of the stuff that gets written about him because was asked to really unique personalities from up top just going at other like that. Yeah i would say that the i mean to me well. Donald trump became he saw lebron as an adversary and a rival and thats simply starts with the fact that lebron campaigned for Hillary Clinton. I mean he was campaigning for trumps adversary and he an op ed endorsing her candidacy for president , talked about it was in the best interest the country for the country to elect her never mentioned by the way ever in her entire candidacy. Never once did he utter the words trump, when campaigned with her in person, which he did cleveland. He never mentioned Donald Trumps name. And if you recall, it was right before the very famous debate between Hillary Clinton and donald trump that occurred right after the Hollywood Tape was leaked by the Washington Post, who put that audio out of the donald trump coming off a bus talking about women and, what he could get away with and what he had done to them in the past and using a lot of crude language, that tape was leaked right before the debate and the reason this lebron ends up getting into this is because youll recall that trumps defense and said this in the debate was that locker room talk. He said that in front of the whole country. Thats what it was locker. Room talk. Well, the minute that happened, naturally, the press is going to ask most famous athlete in america what he thinks about that. So lebron didnt have press conference. He didnt like put out an op ed. He didnt say, i want to talk about this. He was asked about it. And thats what happens when youre in the position that hes in you get asked about a lot of things that you probably wouldnt talk about if the press didnt ask you it. So he was asked about candidate trumps locker room defense and his answer to me was one of the most powerful things hes ever said in a political forum, which, by the way, he said this in a locker room. But what he said was he said, have a mother i have daughter, i have a wife. And we dont talk like that in our locker room. I mean, he never mentioned trumps name i mean to me that is one of the most powerful things an athlete can say. You know i have women in my life that i love. I have a daughter, im married, i have a mom. We dont talk that in our locker room. When lebron says we dont talk like that in the room, they dont talk like that in the locker room because hes the leader of locker room and tell you its not just locker room. I interviewed male in the nfl who told me how that statement impact them how it because there were a lot of who were offended by that by grab them by the whatever language then saying well thats just locker room talk theres a lot of married athletes have moms and daughters who did not like being grouped into that as if this is how we all but it took someone lebron actually it which now makes it easier for the other to also say the same thing and so when i about lebron being so much more mature in the way he deals with what would for most people be a sand trap. This question is loaded and theres so many you could answer this and cause a controversy what he did was he answered it and let everybody know i love my daughter i love my wife i love my mom. I dont condone any of that. Thats not who i am. And the men that i play basketball with. Thats not who are never mentioning elses name. You know, we could stop right there and just say thats end of the discussion. This thing is over. Because to me, that one of my favorite i call it an anecdote, whatever you want. But when i when i got to write that passage, mean i was on morning joe when the day after the book came and i got to tell that story on msnbc to the country in the morning, a political show. And i have to say, it was one of the few times as a journalist that i felt like it felt really good to quote the language of an athlete who has the courage to talk like that and then just stand behind and and be quietly he its almost like recognize the power in a low voice and just the power of the message and its like i dont anything else to say. Yeah now im really happy to actually brought up that passage in particular because i know me just being a fan and the cover of history to go back and hear what ali and bill russell and jim brown, who just passed away, the those guys were talking back then, you too could drop with lebron that era and i feel i feel like he told as well possibly even better just based on on how hes doing and its all its also kind of has the key to how hes put his his money where his mouth is to talk about it and being 1,000,000,000 athlete but hes put a lot of that back toward the i Promise School in akron and authorities the other stuff hes done in terms of his education initiatives and creating jobs for. Men and women and i guess understanding that how would you describe the impact hes had off a court and just putting his focus on stuff like education and housing and a time when it is then that wasnt a popular thing to do least once a lot of athletes yeah you know theres always theres always risks when you try to compare athletes from generations, whether youre comparing athletically or if youre talking about more serious things, like civil rights and i know Michael Jordan never wanted to be compared to bill russell as a basketball player because he would say they played in different eras. The game was different, blah, blah, blah. I think you could say the same thing basketball wise . Michael jordan and lebron james. When you get to civil rights and things like that, lebron doesnt want to be compared to muhammad ali because thats a thats a big, you know, outsized character. I suspect muhammad ali probably wouldnt want to be compared to jackie robinson. That was a different era. Heres what i would say about it is different eras, different circumstances, different times. Lebron, in this time, in this era, to me, its easy to say that he is in a he he would fit really well if he lived in those other eras and was a colleague or an associate of arthur ashe and bill russell and Kareem Abduljabbar and some of these other players who had a social conscience and werent afraid to use it. Now, in those days, none of those made money. The way lebron has in this era. There a disincentive for high profile athletes to socially and politically engage . Michael jordan famously he didnt do that. And im not saying that to criticize him. Thats his right its his decision he made his. And im not going to criticize him for it. Im just saying that lebron made his decision in decision by choosing engage as the richest athlete in america he made a decision some people well, its easy for him to do that. Hes got all the money in the world. Its not like that. Theres actually more risk for him because he is now in many quarters of this country as a divisive figure. People that dont like him because he wouldnt shut up and dribble people they dont like him because he decided to challenge president the United States in a very public way and take him on. He he has done a bunch of things that i think demonstrate. He certainly has the courage to in with those other pillars who who are athletes and had their time. I think if lebron had grown up the sixties or seventies, he would have been with those guys. Its interesting in this, hes kind of a lone i mean, thats what i would say hes kind of a lone. There are not a lot. First of all, he is alone in the ranks of where he sort of is as an athlete. I mean, i, tom and tiger are are there with him, but thats about it. But even in the nba, when you look the other socalled superstars, none of them have really what lebron lebrons done. Lot of things that that get no mention like the fact he formed a Voter Registration advocate group in the middle of a campaign during a time when republicans trying to basically block minorities from being able to vote he was in in the key cities and key battleground states particularly in minority district. He put the money there to get people registered to vote. He made calls the way a congress man would make calls for a colleague. Lebron would sit home and call people to get them to go out and vote to support specific candidates and specific districts. He he built a school. I mean i mean, just think of that sentence. He built a school. I mean no one else has done that that that kind of a sentence that makes you scratch your head go hes a basketball yeah but he built a school. And not just any old school, but a that has like a commissary in it where you can get toothpaste and toothbrushes and food and soap and why is there a school like that . Because lebron knows its like to grow up in a community where those things are not readily available in the house before a kid leaves to go to school. And so he wanted a school. Kids could go there. Theres a great moment where the ceo of walmart, whos agreed to help supply the the school with these things and hes basically lebrons talking to him about what its like to be. The ceo of walmart has no idea what its like to be hungry. Hes never hungry. The executives who were there for this conversation, one of them told me one of the executives who was there for this conversation when when lebron was talking, i was thinking to myself, i dont know what its like to be hungry. I have never felt hunger pains. Lebron has and even if you go into that school and you look at how that school is made, all of those are literally outgrowths of what he lived. And thats why. I do think its not a stretch to say he is in a category by himself when he. Trump you bum on twitter. It wasnt because the president attacked him. It was because the president attacked steph curry, lebrons rival on the Basketball Court. Thats who his biggest rival, biggest rival on the Basketball Court is, steph curry, the president attacked curry in a tweet and lebron jumped into the fight before curry could even defend himself, lebron jumped in and did it for him. And that to me, im just saying, this is a guy you want on your team. I dont mean to get about it, but like this is the kind of guy you want on your team. You want, him living in your neighborhood, you want him on your block. I mean, and i think the reason that all the guys in the Golden State Warriors who wanted to beat lebron so badly by the time they were playing him, the third time in the nba finals, its hard to hate a guy thats so loyal to you. Hes helping everybody. And so thats why Draymond Green doesnt want to yeah he might knock lebron down but after the game, hes going to put his arms him and say, you know, were brothers. Yeah, well you could talk all night especially about basketball, but i do want to open up for anyone who has any questions. We have the microphone right here. So if you have them, i advise to step up because if not, ive got some more. So hi. Good. Actually i have a couple to start with. So, jeff, you obviously admire much about lebron james. You start the book with one of the moments that i think its fair to say if he were to do over again, he would do differently. Right. When he announces that hes leaving cleveland to to miami. Why why do you choose moment to begin this very thorough and admiring biography . Thats a really good question from a writing standpoint. I love answering. Its really important i mean, the hardest decision that biographer has to make actually, anybody whos writing a book has make is where to begin . Where do you bring the audience into the story or . In the case of a biography, where do you bring the audience into the life of the subject . And i have always subscribed to the theory that you need to bring them into the into their life in the moment where they cross. What does that mean, crossover . Lebrons life up to that point im not look his childhood his origin story is like Charles Dickens novels i mean its it is as hard as hard can be but in his professional adult life, the part of the life that we think we know this is the moment where lebron crosses over just a great basketball player everybody kind of admires for his athleticism to. Now, someone that everybody in america has an opinion and a lot peoples opinion is negative. And for the first time in his career hes dealing with hatred. Hes like violent, racist hatred. Its he is public enemy number one in american sports. And that all turns in an hour on live television. And so to me this is the moment to bring the reader into the life to show reader that this is a tech steward multi dimensional life that youre going to read about. Its not all dunks and championships its not basketball. Theres a lot to this man than that because the way this chapter ends is when all hell is breaking loose. That night and he is being the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers is saying things him in a public forum that no one would ever want said about them. And the New York Times has already declared the miami heat to the new empire within an hour of this, when he lands in miami at 2 00 that morning. And its bad and his fiancee says essentially to him but youve been through worse than this thats how the chapter ends, because its the perfect segue way to. Now go back to what shes talking, which is his upbringing and so to thats why he did it that way because now i want to take you to this is just this is really just stupidity media getting all hyped up about something that really that important. This is an athlete deciding where he wants to be and were acting like know this is like a world hunger problem all of a sudden its not that big of a deal except that hes famous. You want to see something that actually matters . Lets go to where he grew up and thats what i was doing there right. The other question i have is, you know, you did a heck of a lot of research on this book and a number of the reviews have described it as very wellresearched one thing you werent able to do was to talk to lebron. Right. If you had been able to, is there something that you couldnt figure out, couldnt get an answer to that you would have asked him, i, i think its most of the time i believe its better for the biographer to talk to the subject. Look, most of the best biographies people in this room have read are written about dead people. President s from the past, founding fathers, scientists that lived long ago. You know, when you write about someone whos living, its tricky if youre talking to that person and having a relationship and a dialog i think its better in most cases and i believe it was in this case, as i believe was in the tiger woods case, to have had those direct conversations with lebron someday. I suspect lebron will write an auto biography and hell choose writer, a skilled writer to help him write it. And hell write the biography that he wants to write as he should. But this is not that. This is an objective deep dive by a biographer looked at his life and. The truth. He can say, i didnt have anything to do with that. And the is i can say he didnt influence one way or the other. I mean thats thats what it is. Its i saw its what i see. And if someone says, well, its pretty glowing, its like he glows mean it is what it is. I cant like i cant help the fact that this guy has done all of these things. If you want to talk to me about china, well, lets talk about it. But i mean, im afraid to talk about anything this guys done. I just think his life hes lived his life this way. Is there one particular thing, though, you would have liked to have asked him for the book . I mean, yeah, if was one thing i could sit down and ask him in a in a private conference asian is i would to know more. Id actually rather ask his wife but i think the most interesting thing about him i couldnt probe deeper on is the relationship between because relationships between husbands and wives are just hard enough to begin with and this when you put a spotlight on a relationship and you wrap it in celebrity and fame, money and all the trap things that have ruined so many celebrity couples that we all about, once again, hes they have not he they they have defied that. And the fact they have been together since, they were in high school. If you were a hollywood film writer and you created this story. Youd get laughed out of the building because its too and ridiculously just not realistic. The fact that they did this and theyre still together and theyve raised a beautiful family and look, thats what im saying like it is what it is. I would love to know more about. And the truth is not just me selfishly, but if you want, talk about how you can really help people, how they made that work is there universal lessons in that i think would benefit a lot of people . No one is capable of listening to lebron talk and then going out and being the kind of basketball player that he is no. One can do that. But theres a lot of people that could try to implement some the things that hes done as a man and, as a husband and a father in their own homes and be effective effective. Any other questions, guys . She has one. Go ahead. I know you do . Yeah. Step. So to what you just said did you find it hard to be so objective because read a review i think it was the l. A. Where they were saying you were straying away from hagiography. So i was wondering, was hard because you love him so much. No, i wouldnt say that. I love him so much because its hard to love someone youve never you know, built a personal relationship with. So i wouldnt say that. But what i say is when you choose take on a subjects life, you dont get to pick and choose what comes with that life. You get all of it so you have to. I can honestly say when i agreed to write this book about lebron, i had no idea what i was getting into. I knew the superficial stuff that, you know, anybody would know whos awake. But theres a lot about him that i didnt know, like 90 of whats in the book. I didnt. And so i didnt know what i was going to find. And or what i was going to see or what people tell me or stuff like that. And all i can say is it, was pleasantly surprising. And there was a time after a day of writing on lebron where went to bed sad or depressed. I cant say that about some of the other books ive written where there were times i went to bed just like oh this is brutal. Its brutal i never felt that way with lebron. I mean it yeah. The early chapters are tough when hes a boy, but. No, i didnt. I just you know. Yeah, there was an admiration there. Im not going to deny that because and im not a its not the basketball part again, the human qualities that i saw with him. Thats the stuff that i was just glad to be able to write. It was nice for a change to be in a position to write a story like that and have it be what it was. Thank you. And then also what was your process like to like start researching him . Where do you start because you have so much Extensive Research . Excellent question question. I i you know, im going to answer it, but thats one of the few questions i dont like to answer. And ill tell you why. Its not because i anything to hide. Its just i dont really like talk about the method too much beyond whats in the source notes. I have im a big, big, big believer source notes. Thats why i have, you know, almost 100 pages of them in this book. I source notes are important and i do not reading these kinds of books that without source notes. So all for that. Im big believer in telling the audience how you did your work. Youre youre asking a different question its actually a little more of a sophisticated question than sourcing. Youre talking about method and Research Method and all ill say here is because we being recorded were on is that one of the things that i do at the very very beginning and thats what you guys how do you start is i spend easily six months at the very beginning of any project tim knows because weve done this before together. But i build a timeline of the subjects life so the subject could be a company, it could be a team like the patriots, or it could be a person like. Lebron but i build a timeline and its really detailed and when im building, thats like building the foundation of a skyscraper. You got to go deep, deep in the ground. You got to dig a deep, deep deep hole and you got to pour a tons and tons cement to hold up a very tall building. The timeline is that its digging an enormously deep hole and then filling it with a lot of cement that will support the story youre going to build. And there is nothing glamorous about doing that. But if you Love Research and i Love Research, i love studying someones finding out things no one knows. I love reading. I can tell you that if it was written, lebron, no matter how poorly it was written, how badly it was done, how boring it was i read it and have the library to prove it. And i read every story that i think i read every story the Akron Beacon Journal ever wrote about him, starting with the one paragraph story when he was his first peewee Football Game and he scored touchdowns and ran wild all the way up to now. And the beginning of process, its like once you have a timeline of the life, thats when enables you to then get up really high in the air, like over a forest and look down and say, okay, that tree right there. I need to put lot of light on that tree. This push here not going to do much with that. But then this tree over here big time, i might actually write whole chapters about this one week in his life but this season in cleveland might skip that whole season and do it in a paragraph but you cant figure that out if you dont have it for at least i cant figure out if i dont have that in immersive extensive timeline my lebron timeline was i mean it was half as long as a book when i was done with it like literally like if i showed you the word document, youd say thats almost a book it is. And in a sense becomes the skeletal framework of a book and so i can see like i when im done with that i have my i know where im going. And now its just knowing, okay, im going here, here. Im not going to tell you how i go after that. But those are state secrets. Thank you. As a great question. If it is on that note, i think at a time when fortunately, jeff by his white teeth ink you also punch again or coming out and jeff thank you its a wonderful obrien go by it its awesome and thank you so much again jefe to Climate Change or other catastrophic event