Reconvene. Were now back in order. The chair recognizes miss crockett for five minutes. Thank you so much, mister the Oversight Committee will reconvene. We are now back in order. The chair recognizes miss crockett for five minutes. Thank you so much. The problem with going this late in the game is there so much but out there and you are all of the place so rock with me a little bit. First of all, i went to get the elephant out of the room. To be clear, both of you provided deposition testimony and in your depositions neither one of you ever stated that President Joe Biden interfered with your investigations, correct . The transcript does not include that. No. The transcript is not include that. North of the city include that Merrick Garland interfere with your investigations, correct . The transcript does not say that. Thank you. The reason i say that is because its the insinuation that this committee is trying to make or one side of this committee is trying to make is that for some reason there was interference. My colleagues continue to make sure they outline the fact that this investigation actually started under the trump administration. That is the reason about who appointed who comes up. But at the end of the day we have no evidence whatsoever the president nor the attorney general of the United States interfered. But i also want to make sure we outline some legal principles since weve got so many newfound prosecutors today on this committee. Number one, to be clear, just because you investigate something doesnt necessarily mean there will be a conviction, correct . That is correct. In fact, in our criminal Justice System youre cloaked in a presumption of innocence. That is what happens under the constitution. We all have a role to play. Your role is investigative, correct . Correct. Then you have been ausa who was usually the one responsible for taking the evidence. They probably have an investigator in their office there is usually an investigator directly within their office that will review any documentation you provide and then they will sit down and talk to the ausa office about recommendations like what the charges will look like and things like that. Is that correct . If that is correct, ive never seen that. Let me be clear. There is a level after you get done with your investigation in which the u. S. Attorneys office then it will look at the evidence you have provided and they will make decisions, correct . Yes. And all four assigned attorneys agreed with recommending felony tax misdemeanor tax charges. Herger testimony before. I will not dispute that the differences ive done the defense side of this before. As far as im concerned it sounds like a sweetheart deal i have never led anyone to every single count of a federal indictment in the first place, unless the only had one count. Ive always negotiated. And unlike on the state level, i tickle billy dumont negotiations before there is an indictment because many times my clients are turning evidence over and all kinds of things. The thing is, those conversations is never taken place with an investigator. They always take place with the u. S. Attorney. The point is you dont have the ultimate charging authority. The people that did decided to do what they would do whatever reasons, correct . In my experience ive always been a part of that, at the table talking to the ausa and talking about the charging decisions. Thats not accurate to say im not an investigator involved in that. This time it was different for you and thats why you felt as if something was wrong but i want to get to Something Else quickly. I want to talk about what we should be prosecuting. We should look at the fact that in 2017 trumps first year in office come he made 5. 6 million in china. His tax returns show. The source of the china payments is not clear from the returns. The payments were a surprise since trump is an outspoken critic of the 5. 8 million that hunter biden made the difference is trump was our president when he made this money from china, where as, im sure you would agree with me, hunter biden has always been a private citizen. We have a lot of other stuff. In fact, its clear that trump never paid more than 750 in taxes for, i want to say, a total of two years of his taxes which is insane. But we also note that it showed that trump claimed large cash donations to charities, but the report said the irs did not verify them pick the report said that while trumps tax filings were large and complicated, the iris does not appear to have assigned experts to work on them. That is shameful. In addition to that we heard testimonies earlier that talked about whether or not you executed a search warrant under section 913. 240 of the doj justice manual and specifically states when searching the premises of an attorney subject of an investigation prosecutors are expected to take the least intrusive approach consistent with vigorous and effective Law Enforcement. Its kind of what they did for trump when they gave him a number of opportunities to turn over the documents or National Secrets he kept in the toilet. But he chose not to and thats why he is facing charges down in florida. And i want to make sure we clear up something about the central park five because i dont think my colleague from the other side of the aisle understands that not only were they found to be not guilty, they were paid 41 million in a 2014 settlement because their civil rights in that lawsuit were violated, in addition to that, we do know that when it is central park five now serves on city council. So i ask unanimous consent that i allow this without objection to order and your time has expired but with a lady yield to a quick question . Would you yield to a question . Yes. You made the argument that trump received 6 million from china, or something and hunter biden received the money from china. Do you know exactly what hunter biden did to receive the money from china . Thats something weve had a hard time trying to figure out. I think i know what trumps businesses were. Im not saying its right or wrong. Im just saying i know what his businesses are but i dont know what the bidens businesses are. But you dont know what its not. Im sorry . You have no idea why or why not he received that money. What i will say you have no evidence about it. Cannot submit this nbc article for the record, as well . Without objections are ordered. In this article it specifically says the source of a number of trumps monies was unclear. It said he did have businesses there. He did say that he had opened some Bank Accounts in china, but they cannot find the source of the monies that were paid to him from china. Okay. The chair recognizes mr. Turner from kansas for five minutes . Thank you for being here today. There is a lot of information so lets quickly lay this out for the american people. Quick answers. How long have each of you work for the irs . 14 years. 13 years. Is up there to say you both have had successful careers at the irs . Youve both been recognized for your achievement there . I believe so. Yes. Absolutely. Are either of you overly partisan people . I am not. No. I have made an effort to not be overly like, i made an effort to to be partisan. To either of you have a burning desire or have you ever to be at a congressional hearing . Do you want to be on tv or are you looking for your 15 minutes of fame here . I would prefer not to be here. I had never imagined this would happen but here i am. For the american people, why did you step forward . Because we need equal application of justice and we hear all the stories about these crimes that are committed that a horrible, but without the equal application of justice i dont understand how we move forward. And i dont understand how i meet my moat oath of office if i dont do to ensure that occurs. There are 300 million taxpayers out there that they think this hearing is a big deal because they are paying their taxes and they see someone who isnt. Mr. Ziegler . Its a matter of accountability. We need to hold those accountable who, basically for the last five years, have not been following proper procedure. The second part of this is that i think we need to have some reform or something built in there that this doesnt happen to people again. Investigators. The biden family in their associates received millions in Global Payments from company sling to ukraine, romania, and china, funneled through Shell Companies. Mr. Ziegler, is that correct . That is correct. 17. 3 million. Mr. Schlafly, what is a special agent report . Is the report that recommends prosecution for various charges. Each of which have been proven, each element approximately how many of these over your career have you been a part of or have you prepared . Yes. Hundreds. Did you complete a special agent report to the hunter biden case . Special agent zigler offered that. I completed that report. And when the report was sent up the chain of command, like you have been involved with, in your case, hundreds times, did you notice anything outside of the normal process that you have grown used to over the years . The change in criminal tax attorneys was definitely inappropriate and out of the norm. But, no, after that the Senior Leadership quickly trumped ct counsel and they concurred with the charges so we sent it forward to department of Justice Tax Division for further approval. And mr. Ziegler . Everything he just said was correct. Mr. Shapley you recommended felony charges in the special agent report and we all know the answer, but was hunter biden ultimately charge with his felonies . No. He was not. Mr. Shapley, but molded lesley wolf play in the investigation . She was an assistant United States attorney out of the district of delaware assigned to the investigation. He met with her and her team during the hunter biden case . And did your testimony to ways and means you described lesley wolf, who was overseeing the case out of delaware as saying during a meeting that she did not want to ask about the big guy and stated she did not want to ask questions about dad. Is that statement accurate and i want to remind you you are under oath. Is that accurate, your testimony to ways and means . And you asked the question will more time . She said, lesley wolf said during a meeting she did not want to ask about the big guy and stated she did not want to ask questions about dad. So its two fold. There is that line in the email that said 10 held by h but the big guy. That was something that came up as a part of us reviewing what we were going to say during that day and she immediately says, no, were not going to ask that and we essentially had to argue our stance on why we should ask that and that was ultimately that we did not know. It was unknown. Mr. Shapely stated that you and your team were stopped from taking certain investigative steps that you believe could have potentially connected this hunter biden case to president biden. Is that correct . Correct. I want to summarize that we have two credible nonpartisan iris investigators confirming there were millions of dollars in foreign payments to Shell Companies to the Biden Administration. We have hunter biden for most of us would not hire to dog sit receiving these millions of dollars for services that they cannot come forward and tell us about. And potentially this is linked to president biden, but we dont know that for a fact because you were shut down. You were not allowed to pursue the investigative angle that you wanted to. This is something we have to get to the bottom of. Its shameful whats happening and i want folks to mark my words that we will not be stifled. This committee will not be stifled by the department of justice or anyone in the Biden Administration. We will pursue this and get to the bottom of this no matter what. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The chair recognizes mr. Gomez for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to be clear. Whistleblower allegations should be taken seriously. Period. I had a whistleblower approach my office during my first term. But one of the things i learned from that is there is a clear, factbased process that needs to be followed to ensure a whistleblower investigation is executed properly without political interference. This is not what is happening here today. Were where this originated in ways and means, republicans through that process into the gutter and here is how. One, there were more than 50 people identified in the ways and means committees depositions on the same topic that were not spoken to and not interviewed before the republican majority released these allegations to the public. They did not take the time to check their facts. And the republicans even admitted during questioning that they never interviewed or asked questions or sought to ask questions of these individuals. Instead, republicans cherry picked 13 people who they knew agreed to cooperate their claims. Why would they not conduct a thorough investigation and interview all people identified who might have information in this case . There are more than 50 people who werent given the opportunity to defend their names, respond to allegations, or give this important context and facts. Two. The whistleblower transcript contains unauthenticated, unverified documents from unknown searches on the internet. The exhibit used by the gentleman from ohio in the early part of the hero is one of those unverified documents pulled from the internet. Yet, they treat it as a smoking gun. You can literally find anything on the internet. That does not make it true and republicans refuse to verify their sources. They are trying to give the appearance of these documents are from irs files provided by the whistleblower or some trusted source, but in fact they are not. These documents are unauthenticated and we dont even know their real source. What kind of basis is this for a Serious Investigation . Three. The majority released this transcript with all these errors i cited to the public before verifying any of these allegations. They put the cart far before the horse declining to speak to over dozens of valuable witnesses. Refusing to verify the information they push to the public. Throwing this whole process and its credibility out the window. Additionally, this process has been tainted by the fact that one of these whistleblowers attorneys have made substantial contributions to the republican chairman of ways and means as recently as february of this year. And one of these whistleblowers did not even come voluntarily. He was asked to testify by his supervisor. None of this inspires confidence in these efforts of my colleagues across the aisle or in the process that has been taken. If my colleagues were serious about these allegations they would have gone through the proper steps to ensure this investigation was done correctly, but they did not. They rather dragged this investigation and this committee into the gutter, and that was approved by the gentle woman from georgia. If the gutter is where they choose to live in the only purpose of this hearing is to drag us all down there with them, i dont want any part of it. Ask for unanimous consent to submit for record a letter from ways and means ranking letter outlining improper steps taken by the majority in this investigation. Without objection. So ordered. With that emily thode yield my remaining time to mr. Goldman of new york. Thank you, mr. Gomez. I want to return to the Washington Post october six article and id ask unanimous consent to enter it in the record. In your testimony, mr. Mr. Shapley before the ways and means committee, you stated there was a leak. It appeared to come from the agent level who was critical of the prosecutors for not charging the case. What you testified earlier was a little different. Which one do you stand by today . Im sorry, can you repeat that . It was a leak. It appeared to come from the agents level who was critical of the prosecutors for not charging the case. Yes. It appeared because i said it came from the agent level, but the source was a source familiar with the topic and its not say it was a Law Enforcement source. Okay. That seems to be a distinction without a difference. And you understand that, obviously, makes a grand jury investigation is a felony, right . Making investigative information including 61 at three would be a felony. Thats true as well. Would you agree that there would be some skepticism from any prosecutors about which of the agents may be the source of the leak . Feel free to answer the question. Multiple lakes in this investigation and the one on december 8 or 920 20 that appear to come from someone, as lesley wolf stated i was asking about october 6, 2022. I because anyone suspicion. If it comes from an agent level . Thats what you said. Gentlemen, time has expired and you are the next questioner after the gentleman from texas. We are talking about all this getting and diverting and distracting and spend and a whole lot of word vomit from the other side of the aisle makes no sense as to what we are here for today and you hear a lot of trump, trump, rudy giuliani. Im not talking about either of those gentlemen today. I want to thank both the witnesses were being here. Its been established that you are very credible and experienced and you are subject Matter Experts and what you do. Mr. Shapley, you let a team of 12 agents in this investigation how long were you investigating the sportsman, the hunter Biden Administration investigation . Started january 2020. Two or three years . Thats correct. You both im sure are aware that one of Hunter Bidens lawyers have accused due to having access and that you are disgruntled agents. Are you a political activist . I am not. You are not. Mr. Ziegler, are you part of the Mega Movement . I am not. You are not. I have to ask you a direct question. Are you out to get hunter biden or are you out to get justice . Its all about justice here and thats why the plea agreement, when people asked me to comment about the plea agreement, its outside of my control. Justice or you want to get hunter . Its just us. Thank you. The Ranking Member who is a skilled order claimed when he was speaking earlier that this is all, and i quote, normal stuff, and theres no evidence the hunter biden received preferential treatment. Mr. Ziegler, do you agree with those statements . That this investigation was normal stuff and nothing out of the ordinary and that hunter biden did not receive preferential treatment . Based on my transcript, i would believe that answer, or that question would be incorrect. Would you say you be only disagree with the statements . I dont think it changes my perspective of it. All i can say is that we came forward with the information of slow walking and not following investigative steps. It was out of the ordinary . Yeah. Mr. Shapley do you agree . This was out of the ordinary. When you read your transcribed interviews which are massive in and of themselves, is clear the laws of interference and roadblocks the doj and other federal government personnel put in front of you was astounding, if not unprecedented in these pages i was shocked to see how an assistant u. S. Attorney stonewalled and scuttled your investigation. Lets go back to its december 2020. The Prosecutorial Team is meeting to discuss next steps. Hunter biden heresy of millions of dollars in foreign payments in one of his Shell Companies. To this day, no one can tell what it did other than accept money. So nobody knows what services the company ever provided and its december of 2020. Hunter is vacating the d. C. Offices and moving those documents to a storage unit in northern virginia. Were you interested in what those documents might reveal . Yes we were. And maybe could have shed light on criminal activity, felony . Unfettered access to the documents there before defense counter could filter them would have been very advantageous. Couldve been a treasure trove but we dont know because of what happened later. Did you prepare and affidavit to search that storage unit . I was the one. Did u. S. Attorney weiss agree that if the unit was not accessed for 30 days then you could execute the warrant . Thats correct. That seems weird to wait 30 days and how we know if someone accesses it. Is it going to be under 24 hour surveillance or will the be a stakeout. Do we have to call amelia estevez and Richard Dreyfus and have been there with the binoculars checking things out . It wasnt in the transcript but this was a unique location where it wouldve been easier than what you just described to see if it was accessed. But you did not have to wait 30 days because didnt u. S. Attorney lesley wolf do when she learned you wanted to execute the search warrant . She first approved and was saying its going to take approvals for us to get this done but then came back a few days later and said, no, were not moving forward with this. And i was the one who proposed, lets just wait 30 days. We will get the approvals. We will make sure the storage unit is not accessed and then we can move forward with the warrant for her response was, i will think about it. And then we come to find out a few days later that they had let defense counsel know that we know about the storage unit. The u. S. Attorney tipped up the lures of a person subject to a years long criminal felony investigation. Is that what you are saying . Did lesley wolf tip of Hunter Bidens lawyers . Regarding the storage unit. Because once you know that any of the subject of a criminal investigation, any of those documents that could incriminate you will meet and match and gasoline. That is astounding that is direct evidence of preferential treatment and that is not normal stuff. Is that normal . I can tell you that was actually my redline situation. Different than how mr. Shapley refers to it. I do not think we had a seat at the table. It disappointed me so badly but i knew this was something we were up against and that it was like, okay. Thats what they decided to do. Have either of you ever seen anything like that before in your decades of experience . The gentlemens time has expired but please answer the question. No. I am not. I am not either. I want to thank you. Your Excellent Public Service and courageous and justice is the only thing i want to be blind pig not democratic colors or the media or Top Administration officials. The chair recognizes the gentleman from new york. I love to get the extra minute that mr. Ballin got. Thank you for being here today. We dont have a lot of time. And i have a lot of questions if i cut you off im not trying to be rude. Im trying to get through them and i want to talk about the evidence you did have. Mr. Ziegler you were the case agent so how many documents did you say, would you say you gathered during the five year investigation . However i do believe i may have documents, i am limited by the statute but i would be more than welcome to turn those documents. How many. The number. It was a significant amount documents. I apologize. Hundreds of thousands . Millions . I dont want to put a number to it but there was a lot. Bank records . Yes. Both domestic and foreign . That is correct. And you conducted search warrants . Yes. There was reference in a transcript to conducting electronic search warrants. Did you do other search warrants as well . What do you mean . Any other search warrants . . A larger, physical . I will stick to what i stated in the transcript that there were multiple electronic search warrants . And you conducted within 60 interviews as part of this investigation . That is correct . That is a lot for any investigation, right . For a tax investigation . I would not say that . In my tenures i dont know how many investigations i did with 60 interviews. I want to focus for a second on the whatsapp we went through. Mr. Shapley, in your testimony and your Opening Statement you said the text message, the Whatsapp Message we have been talking about shows hunter biden discussing business with his father. Could you show me where in the text message it says anything about discussing business . With joe biden . So, if you would like me to go through it, i can take time to review it if you would like me to. I dont have the time. I would tell you the only thing it says about it is that hunter biden was sitting with his father. It does not say anything about discussing any business. And mr. Shapley, you said in your testimony and we talked about this a bunch that the agents were prohibited from pursuing leads related to joe biden and the big guy, but the agents did that anyway, right . The agents interviewed rob walker. And they asked him about that, right . They did not use the word big guy but asked about it in reference to that text. Do you recall that rob walker actually said in response to that that he was not aware that joe biden was ever a part of anything that he and hunter were doing . That is what the witness said. Yes. And you describe a lunch where joe biden came to say hello at the Four Seasons Hotel to a lunch he was having with cefc executives, right . Thats correct. But what you did not talk about is what rob walker said the origination of that lunch was and you testified that he said that hunter told his dad according to rob walker, quote, i may be trying to start a company or try to do something with these guys. Let me ask you something. That doesnt sound much like joe biden was involved in whatever hunter biden was doing with the cefc if hunter biden is telling him that hes trying to do business with them, does it . No. But it does show that he told his father he was trying to do business and he was talking hunter biden tried to do business. That is correct. Not only have no direct evidence connecting joe biden to any of Hunter Bidens business deal, you actually had proof that he wasnt involved. That is the proof that you had. And in the end of the day that this was a fiveyear criminal investigation with tens of thousands of documents, maybe hundreds of thousands unusually search warrants, aggressive techniques. He wrote a report recommending felony charges. It went to doj. They wrote a 99 page memo, approval memo and either of you saw that, did you . That is correct. And what was their recommendation . All i know approval, discretion or declination . I have to stick to the confines you testified that it was discretion which means it wasnt an approval. It was to the discretion of the u. S. Attorneys office which had the doj tax memo, which had information from the defense lawyers that they spoke with and they are the ones who have to prove this case in court. I will tell you as a federal prosecutor for 10 years and ive worked with many of your colleagues who do great work and im sure you do great work as well, but i never met an agent who did not want to charge every possible case. But what i notice and five hours of testimony today is that neither one of you has ever mentioned a portion of the case that may not be so strong or may be suspect or may have a defense and thats because thats what the prosecutor has to think about before charging a case and that is not what the special agent report does. The gentlemans time expired and you went a minute over. We recognize mr. Perry from pennsylvania. I think the chairman. Mr. Shapley if you get page 30 of your transcript and i want to say to mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, we appreciate you coming forward. We have heard of a legend socalled whistleblowers in the past. They could not reveal themselves and it led to an improper impeachment of a president that was unjustified and unsubstantiated so i really do credit you. I think this is probably been very difficult and a hard choice for you to make but i think it was the right one and i commend you for it. Mr. Shapley, page 30 of your transcript. Middle of the page , last sentence, second paragraph starting with, every single day. Every single day was a battle to do our jobs. I understand that in congress but you are following the letter of the law. You are taking in information. You are doing this and you get that. Why is your day that is a chilling line. What did you mean when you said that . Every time we try to communicate steps and get support from investigator steps it was always slow waltz or pushed off that we needed doj, Public Integrity approval or doj eoe approval. It was used as a crutch. It was used to stall the investigation and, ultimately, some people seem to be overlooking is these prosecutors agreed with these charges. And you finally reached a redline that you said previous and answered mr. Fallons question, you are seeking justice. I believe you were. I dont think you were picking winners and losers. Just who is following the rules you reach a redline october 7, 2022, at the meeting with u. S. Attorney weiss. Is that a reasonable characterization . That is correct. What you mean when you say you reached your redline . Throughout the investigation starting in the summer of 2020, my case agents were coming to me with a certain concerns and because we were worried about the discovery process with agents turning over documents at the end of the investigation, we wanted to protect that investigation so i documented them on a recurring basis issues we were having and it was after discussions with my agents. I also saw these things firsthand. We got to the point where its a heavy burden. I have a deep respect for the department of justice and a usas and u. S. Attorneys ive worked with in the past and to ultimately conclude they were doing the wrong thing was just such a high burden. You concluded that and, mr. Ziegler, your redline come i think you said, was later on december 14, 2021 ausa wolf tips off the fighting counsel about your plan to search the storage unit. Is that right . Absolutely. Because that storage unit the method we were planning to do was the least intrusive. It was a storage unit. We needed to get those records. And you were just seeking justice . Seeking the truth . The truth will take you wherever it takes you and you make decisions based on what you learn. What was your Agency Leadership response when you try to alert officials outside your chain of command . So, most recently when special agent ziegler emailed the commissioner, they basically threatened and intimidated special agent ziegler that he had violated some type of law. Threatened and intimidated. And forced this chain of command requirement that does not meet the legal requirement. So you are trying to seek justice. You are trying to seek the truth and they are throwing instruction in front of you. They are obstructing you from doing it, arent they . So, my complaints for irs criminal investigation and Senior Leadership is not necessarily for blocking this investigation. I do believe we raise things on a continual basis and they stuck their head in the sand and took no action. But in terms of their retaliation, thats when they first reared their head. There is no doubt about it that after protective disclosures were made that they took prohibitive personal practices against me. Have you ever been threatened before in an investigation . I have not. And i have come to learn that this 6e grand jury threat may have happened before to other people inside the irs. Mr. Shapley . No. Not for my own agency. Not from the team. When my friends on the other side of the aisle say treasury hasnt retaliated against you, its simply not true. Is a law and they placed unlawfully you and your fellow supervisors under a gag order. Mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, my time is expired but what we are talking about here is obstruction of justice. You were seeking justice and you were obstructive. Its against the law. I yelled the balance. The chair recognizes mr. Moscowitz from florida. Thank you, mr. Chairman and, gentlemen, thank you for appearing today and for being a Public Servant and there should be no retaliation against you as whistleblowers. Unlike my colleagues that said nothing and supported President Trump when he retaliated and fired then men and escorted him from the building for appearing in an investigation. That should not happen to you but, of course, they said nothing when you happen to other people. We heard about the bidens. The biden family. Biden associates. Right . Bidens plural. But not joe biden. Then i hear a lot about joe biden. Why . Because this is nothing to do with him. My colleagues talked about foreign countries. Foreign entities trying to make it scary for the american people. Of course President Trump got 5. 4 million from the chinese while president because they were leasing space in trump tower. He goes out and air kisses president xi. Totally perfect. Jared kushner gets 2 billion from the saudis even though he over salt middle east peace. Totally kosher. Ivanka trump is doing business with the chinese while working in the white house. Totally beautiful. Why do i bring that up . They want to say you have credibility. The problem is they have none. They have no credibility pick and because you are here at their behest, their lack of credibility questions your credibility. Not because if you personally, but because of what they had done over the last several years the chairman says you are credible. You want to know actually what they feel about you . People like you who work in government . I have pages of it. It goes on for years. I will read a couple of adjectives. Trump has called people like you, socalled whistleblowers, fake whistleblowers. Partisan people. Political hack jobs. s, frauds, traders, cowards, spies, losers, clouds, bugs, puppets, unelected bureaucrats, the swamp and my favorite, the deep state are you members of the deep state . Did you stop paying its a rhetorical question. Did you stop paying your deep state dues . Did you not attend the latest deep state meeting . Is that why youre not in the deep state . I cant tell when people when they want people like yourself to be in the deep state depending on what the deep state is saying. It undermines their credibility. Undermines government and the American Trust in government and or institutions. And throughout all of this for years, four years of it, they said nothing. And now in an effort to own hunter biden they are assembling nude photos of him. Having some intern having to sit in a room and blow up these photos and put it on poster board and figure out ic