Transcripts For CSPAN3 IRS 20240703

Palmer for five minutes. I thank the chairman. I want to welcome the whistleblowers and thank you for your courage. More than, that for your fidelity to your duty to faithfully enforce the laws of the United States. Mr. Shabbily, the statute of limitations has run out on a number of possible felony charges for 2014 in 2015. Is that correct . Thats correct. There are huge liabilities for that texture. Correct . They were taxi at liabilities, yes. You didnt have access to all the evidence related to those sources of income, did you . Based on the limitations placed on us by delawares attorneys office, its very likely. The Oversight Committee recently reviewed the classified documents from the fbi. Its a form used by the fbi to memorialize information related to confidential human sources. Left the 10 23. It was created in june of 2020. This is not a tip sheet. Its not a hotline. Its not a suggestion box. Its a legitimate source used by the fbi mr. Shabbily did you ever review the june 20 20th forums with the information about hunter biden and President Biden . No, i did not. I reviews the form. And there is startling allegations and it. What would you have done if presented with this piece of evidence regarding this potential stream of income. It has constituted an area of investigation. So, since ive never seen the document, its been reported. I can say that there were investigative steps that involve President Biden that were not allowed to be taken. Information like this would have been really helpful to have from investigators by investigators when we received pushback. When we were asked to take names out of document requests and search warrants. It wouldve been nice to have information that showed why. It helped prove why those names need to be in them. I think its material to your investigation. All information led to it. Liberal later to the wanting of investigations. Was there other evidence in this investigation that you are denied access to . Yes, there was. Do you want to elaborate . One piece was the hunter biden laptop. There is a memorandum that documented it contemporaneously. It was a testimony that states that what the United States attorney leslie wolf told us on that today. I think it was september 3rd for 2020. Thats that they had information from the laptop that they were not providing to the investigators. Can i add something . So, when it came to questions, as a part of the, investigation reinterviewed a lot of people. As part of the investigation, you want to ask questions. It should be an open environments. Theres information in that. There was an environment when we are interviewing witnesses. You are free to ask questions questions that could lead to the president ial campaign. This is after the campaign is over. Questions like that was restricted. It was limited. It appears to me the Public Domain sources another piece of relevant information, i think its important the committee understands that you are trying to do due diligence. They were denied evidence relevant to your investigation. I think the 10 23 form is an important piece mister chairman, i want to ask mr. Ziegler, is that correct . From the variants of the investigation, yes. There are two different scenarios from where d. C. Is involved. When we first started initiating investigation, and then when he was referred to prosecution. Which time period. As far as venue for the tax case goes the menu for this case we saw that when we did our analysis that benny was either in california or in d. C. I guess, at the time, in the beginning it was d. C. That was where we wanted to see our investigation was indeed. You are told that attorneys were in charge of this, was that your understanding . Okay, fast forward to march 2022. I had a phone call with prosecutors assigned to the case. They said that our prosecution report went to low level people at the d. C. U. S. Attorneys office. Those low level people reviewed, said hey, were gonna give you this. Heres what were gonna do to help you work and finish the case here in d. C. A few days later, i get another phone call. Its from the same assigned attorney. They tell me that now that the u. S. Attorney has reviewed it. Not only is it a no, it and know you should not work this investigation in the district of columbia. Mister chairman, it appears to me that mr. Ziegler was misled. And that his instincts were right, it shouldve been moved to the district of columbia. Again, i want to thank you for your courage and your fidelity to the law. I yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Khanna from california, for five minutes. Thank you mister chairman, thank you mr. Chapely for being here. I understand that your duty to have the strict enforcement of tax law, is it true that you have often disagreed with charging decisions before . I agree with charging decisions. Im saying, is it that youve all true that youve often disagreed that your recommendations have often been disregarded before when it comes to charging decisions, is that true . I dont think disregard is accurate representation. People in your own irs have disagreed with your decisions often before, is that accurate . Thats not accurate. Is it not true that the facts council, in the criminal department, has disagreed often with your decisions in the past . Criminal tax attorneys, yes. As i stated how often have they disagreed in your opinion, with your recommendation decisions . Very often. Can you give us a percentage of how often you said we ought to charge someone and they said no, that may not be a good idea . Yeah, i would say, i mean, just ball parking a vast majority of what we do. Thats why theyre advisory. Do you have respect for them . Theyre advisory. Do you have respect for them . Most prosecutors its a simple question, sir. The respect of colleagues or not . Often their opinion is not respected by me. So, do you have more respect for them or mr. White . I think because you have a history of wanting to charge people. And then people pushing back. Youre by your own testimony, under oath, you said 90 of the time, people are pushing back on what you want to do. I am not questioning, you want to stick for the law, it reminds me of les mis, the famous person wanted to get the person who had the sandwich. All this time, people kept pushing back on you. You said, theyre not very well respected. Do you respect mr. White . The criminal tax attorneys, ive never had a case that they declined, that they did not concur with we didnt ignore their request and move forward. If its 90 , they have disagreed with, correct . Byron testimony. Yeah, yes i established that. Let me ask you on the media, given testimony under oath, you have never spoken to the Washington Post, and reported on this matter, correct . Thats correct. Do you know, have you spoken to any Media Outlets on this matter . I have spoken after the house ways and Means Committee. Before that, have you spoken to any media, journalists on this matter . Absolutely not. Do you know of any colleague of yours, that the irs wouldve spoken to any journalists on this matter . Absolutely not. Do you know any investigation into the leaks from this matter . So, the october 6th leak, i was the person who referred it to our inspector general. Do you know any of your colleagues were under on the ninth of 2020, around the day of action. Do you know if youre any of your colleagues were sorry, if i could just do you know if i have any of your colleagues were under investigation for that leak . No. I know of no colleague uninvestigated that leak. Youve never spoken any media person i testimony about this matter . Not only my testimony under oath today, ive provided affidavits to the house ways and Means Committee saying the same, have said it to our Inspector Generals Office as well. I appreciate. That i dont want to make a final point on this, one, i think with mr. Chairman, do you mind if i can the gentleman answer the question you asked . I dont want my time to be. Getting him to the time, i want to minute to wrap up. You have a minute. Okay. Heres the point, i think this whole thing, the Ranking Member raskin summarized it, i dont disrespect, you sir. I think of a tough view on what you think the law should be. This is why we have a prosecutor toilsome, where you dont get to decide, i dont get to decide. We have a whole system. It turns out, often your recommendations on who should be charged differ from some of the other folks. And thats what happened in this case. As your testimony here, you yourself said, you think mr. Weiss should come and explain his decision. You dont question him, and i think on the optics issue, thats what my colleagues have brought up, obviously attorney general barr is gonna be concerned of the optics when you have a donald trump appointed u. S. Attorney, potentially bringing charges against his rival son. Thats a legitimate thing to do. I guess my view here is, were spending hours on a disagreement about whether to charge someone, we have a whole democratic process that does. That you dont get, my final question mr. Shapley, do you think you should get decide who gets charged . Do you think that should be the charging office . Each time you say this is a disagreement, you can say it multiple times, it doesnt make a true. Weve testified under oath here about the prosecutors agreeing with charging felony charges on multiple occasions. Just to say this is a disagreement would be a misrepresentation. My last question though, who do you think gets . It should you have that final decision or prosecutors have the final decision . No, i am a special agent for irs criminal investigation, i do not make those final decisions. On whether to charge or not. Appreciate that. Mister chairman, may i have a second . In terms of a criminal statute. Point of order, mister chairman, we have a new real in the committee, let it happen before. I know if it was to answer, you finished. That him followup. Youre correct. Gentlemans times expired, we recognize miss green for five minutes. Thank you, mister chairman. Before we begin, id would like to let the committee and everyone watching at home that parental discretion is advised. I dont like to remind everyone that on the Oversight Committee, we provide oversight into all parts of federal government. Including their department of justice and their willingness to prosecute and their unwillingness to prosecute. And whether its politically motivated. I would also like to say, when evidence and proof of a crime is presented, no prosecution can be denied. No matter who the person is. To the whistleblowers today, i think both of you for your courage to come to the committee today. Your commitment to truth, i have Great Respect for it. Thank you. I would like to talk with you both about hunter biden and his tax writeoff with his law firm, owasco. I would like to ask mr. Ziegler, when did you start your investigation in your testimony, it was november 2018, is that correct . Yes or no . Yes, thats correct. Thank you. During your testimony with the house ways and Means Committee, you stated that through bank records, you identified hunter biden paying prostitutes related to a potential prostitution ring, is that correct . Yes or no . Yes, thats correct. Ive also reviewed that those same bank reports, commonly referred to as suspicious activity reports, and im very troubled by them. We read thousands of them in the treasury. This particular excerpt from the report called talks about human trafficking. And in regards to hunter biden and owasco, and payment he was making. Whats even more troubling to me is that the department of justice has brought no charges against hunter biden that will vindicate the rights of these women who are clearly victims under the law. I would like to talk about your prior testimony, you stated that the Prosecutorial Team was investigating violations of the men act, is that correct, mr. Ziegler . That is correct. Regarding the mann act, if a person is transported across state lines for sexual activity, such as prostitution, that could be a violation of a federal law, is that correct . I recently looked at the federal law regarding the man act, i believe that that is correct. I would refer you to the doj manual. Thank you. I would like to present this to the committee. This is showing hunter biden paying for a victim united flight from l. A. To dulles. This was, i believe, a violation of the man act. Hunter biden this is proof that he bought the ticket. He bought it for this woman right here. He flew her from los angeles to washington on june 14th. Flew her back to los angeles, california, on june 15th of 2018. I would like to point out that if he was purchasing her a plane ticket for sex and traveling across state lines, do you believe that to be a violation of the mann act, mr. Ziegler . I can talk specifically about whats in my transcript, regarding the mann act, i know we were compiling the information together. Yes, mr. Ziegler, as the law states, by the code of the law it states that traveling, paying summer to go across state lines is prostitution, its a violation of the mann act. Let me move on to one more second here, when hunter biden paid for this woman to do this with him, to travel across state lines from california to washington, d. C. , on june 15th, this is a violation of the mann act, this is prostitution. Let me continue. Did hunter biden also use this company owasco d. C. To pay prostitutes . Hold on one second. Well give you the additional time back. Regarding the mann act violations, regarding the statute, be return to the house ways and Means Committee, they can decide to vote to turn them over to you. Regarding the mann act. Thank, you mr. Ziegler. I talking about hunter biden, using his company pc to pay prostitutes, this is also spur suspicious activity reports, showing that victim one, the woman that was paid for prostitution, that traveled from california to washington, d. C. , paid for by hunter biden, this is an excerpt from a stars report that we read in the treasury. I think you all have looked at these two. Showing that victim one was supposedly an employee of owasco. I would like to point out, this is not really what most paralegals do. For law firms. And its very serious that hunter biden was paying this woman, through his law firm, and then writing it off as business tax exemptions. Most people writeoff things for their taxes through their businesses like a meal, or say, office supplies. Can you confirm for me that hunter biden had written off payments for prostitutes through his law firm, owasco . I appreciate the question given by the statute, and limited in my testimony today. I respectfully would need to turn those records over to the house ways and Means Committee. Okay, thank you mister ziegler, one last question. You referred to one of the assistants as west coast assistant. I believe this is the west coast assistant. Could you agree with that . I can tell you that there were deductions for, what we believe to be, escorts. And that 10,000 Dollar Golf Club membership, yes, that was not a golf club membership. That was for a six club payment. That was for a sex club payment. Payment such as this through from hunter biden to prostitutes. Also, mr. Shapley mister chairman, or one minute 63 seconds. Over as long as we get equal time. I will let miss green wrap up, in five seconds. Ill give additional time. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Shapley, you use your investigation into hunter biden code named horsemen, which opened in november of 2018. It was an offshoot of an investigation the irs was conducting into a foreign based amateur online pornography platform. This is evidence. Chairman of hunter biden making sex tapes. Excuse me, this is my time. Making pornography. Should we be displaying this, mister chairman . In the committee . The gentleladys time has expired. With two have minutes over. She can have it if you want to yield some to miss ocasiocortez, will make it right. You are next to have minutes. Chair recognize that mr. Debate. Point of order. Mister chairman . My understanding is that this committee was provided this activity reports on the condition that it not publicize them. For the reason that they are not actually, even allegations, much less evidence of anything. My colleague from georgia has now just revealed it publicly. That is a good point, however, that suspicious activity report has been public for years. Thats a superstitious activity report was on the internet long before i became chairman of this committee. That particularly a suspicious activity report is already been publicized. Thank you for that clarification. She said as part of the thousands that you reviewed, i appreciate a clarification. Public and able, we all review. Treasury click reclaim time. We recognized for five minutes, and will go over time, well work with you. Thank you very much, mister chair. Im going to claim my five minutes and yield the two and a half additional minutes which have given me to my colleague from new york, miss ocasiocortez. Im glad somebody brought up this in the words suspicious activity, because thats just whats taking place in this view this room. Make no mistake about it. I want to congratulate my colleagues from across the aisle for gathering us here today, almost distracting us from the biggest investigation that has gone on right now in our country and in our nations history, involving the former president. And the front runner for the republican nomination. Who is currently facing a 37 count indictment this week. And maybe two weeks from now, more, and maybe to four weeks then, more. But were spending our time talking about hunter biden, someone whos already pleaded guilty to not filing his taxes, having a gun charge, and now i hear also, paying for prostitution. Lets just remember, there was a case in new york not too long ago where our former president also got into trouble regarding payments and regarding a stripper. And was found guilty of a violation in civil court. There seems to be a lot of hemming and hawing about special treatment, special treatments, when the president , just a couple of days ago, try to delay his federal documents trial and requested the u. S. District judge, aileen cannon, who he appointed, to somehow or another consider the fact that he was a candidate, and therefore, maybe, maybe, maybe his trial should be put off, until after the election. That seems to be like special treatment, if ive ever heard of it before. But im grateful that my colleague on the other side of the aisle is taking at these tax evasion very seriously. I would welcome also hearing on the former president s history of tax evasion . And how long it took to see his tax returns covering ten years, and what was the outcome of that decision. You know, the Trump Organization was hit with one point 6 million in manhattan state court, being convicted of attacks scheme. Lets be real when we talk about this. Its not just hunter biden. As long as were seeing hunter biden, we need to get everything else. Again, hunter biden i do not file taxes in two years, yes, i have a gun charge. All take responsibility for. I love the fact that we are so earned so much love with the irs. In fact, Speaker Mccarthy said, when he was elected on the 15th vote, that the first bill that he would repeal funding for was the bill that would provide for 87,000 additional irs employees. My, dont we love the irs . Were just gonna cut their budget. In fact, theres a number of this committee who on their own website said they are proud to have voted to strip away the plan to empower the irs with additional funding. So, im gonna get back to those two words again about keeping it real. I think we really have to do that. I just think, mr. Shapley, two quick things. Is hunter biden in any way, in your knowledge, not hunter, but did any of his children receive money, yes or no . I think agent ziegler would be. Either one, yes or no. Congressman, yet thank you for the question, im limited by the testimony by the statute. Okay, we can turn owner over any of the records that relate to the adult children. Yes. Wed like to see those. Really, i would. Were gonna hear soon about tax evasion. Weve got people at the highest levels of government doing it, we dont want to talk about that at all. No, heres what goals me. I dont like these attacks on the department of justice, the fbi, the irs. As if they are somehow antiu. S. Agencies. Those agencies keep this democracy in check, keep them in float. They provide the checks, they provide the balances. And we could be, quite frankly, using our time to better talk about crime in america thats affecting everybody. Attacks on womens health. The economy. Budgetary issues. Public education. Housing. Relief for seniors ages babble to pay for subscription drugs. Poverty mental health, to name a few. Yet, were doing this all over again for the hunter biden show, for someone who has pleaded guilty and has taken responsibility for not filing taxes for two years. This is ludicrous. Beat me up, scotty. Theres no intelligent life down here. None. I yield. Chairman, time is expired. Chair now recognizes mr. Armstrong from north dakota. If i could plead guilty to two years of tax evasion when i was accused of sex, i might consider that to be a pretty good plea deal. And lets talk about what this is and what it supposed to be. Mr. Shapley, i think were gonna testify that criminal tax attorneys are advisory only, and often doj prosecutors disagree with the irs tax attorneys, is that an accurate statement . Yes, its an accurate statement. I think this is important, everyone continues to go out there after you to look into people who are involved in this. You went to work for the irs in 2008 . 2009, correct. 2009. Mr. Ziegler, 2000 . Ten 2010. You started under president obama. Continue your career under President Trump, and are continuing your career under President Biden, is that accurate . Yes. In your entire careers, including today, how many times have you talked about who appointed a u. S. Attorney . I havent. In the course of any investigation, have you talked about whether it was a democratic appointee or a republican appointee . I have not, no. Mr. Ziegler . I have not. Its not supposed to matter, right . Thats why you have u. S. Attorney to also go across administrations and work through republican administrations, democratic administrations, and thats the part of your Investigative Team. That Investigative Team recommended that you charge hunter biden for every tax year, since 2014 till 2019, and felonies for at least 2014 and 2018. And this included income in a scheme to invade taxes from a partnership with a convicted felon. Is that accurate . Yes, thats accurate. And a total amount of taxes not paid over that period are not paid timely, was over one point 5 million. And that did not include interest in penalties or other that are typically involved in this case, correct . Yes, thats correct. And mr. Ziegler, your testimony identifies to criminal violations, which is attempt to avoid taxes and filing false tax returns. They both carry sixyear statute of limitations. That is correct. Mr. Shapley, you stated the purpose of the exclusion of the 2014 at 2015 tax years sanitized the most substantial criminal conduct and concealed material fact. Can you expound on that a little bit . Yes, that statement by the may ways and Means Committee was in reference to the income from pariss mom that was not reported. Therefore, if it wasnt reported, it would be completely left of the official record. As far as your wear, thats not a part of any plea deal, correct . I cant speak to the plea deal, i dont believe. So i want to talk about something that is a little unique to this investigation. I want to take you back to december 7th and eighth of 2020. You are planning, your Investigative Team, this is the whole team, east coast, all across the country, numerous interviews being, are going to be conducted. Hunter biden was gonna be the subject of one of those in l. A. , correct . Thats correct. This is unique, because joe biden has won the election, were walking into this, there are some serious, secret service protect an, i am sure assuming after contact the secret service, youre not walking up with armed fe fbi agents to a secret service protect the . Yes, we had a plan on how to approach hunter biden that day. Briefly explain that plan . So, the fbi asked us to say and were ironed with assigned with interviewing hunter biden that day. The day previous, we went to the l. A. Fbi field office and ask them to special agent in charge to contact the secret service, special agent in charge for the l. A. Field office. Eight a. M. On the morning, december 8th and tell them to agents were going to approach hunter biden to put as part of an official investigation, and the night before, all that changed. All of that change because fbi headquarters and secret Service Headquarters coordinated, and that information had gotten out to everybody the night before. We can talk about whether to highly political investigation all of those sorts of things, theres nothing a group of people that were made aware of that the night before. Wasnt there . Yes, thats correct. That would be the Transition Team . Thats correct. The Transition Team is a political operation, set up to help the president elect, that cabinet employees, worked on inauguration, do all of those things. Is that your understanding . Generally. They have any special investigative powers i dont know about . Not that i would know of. And your entire history and working history with the irs, did you ever work with a Transition Team of residence to help set up an interview with the subject of a criminal investigation . I have not. Final question, do you get to interview hunter biden . We did not interview him. Thank, you i yield back. Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes mr. Ocasiocortez for five minutes plus. Two and half minutes that we went over. Thank you, very much mister chairman. Good afternoon mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, i want to thank you both for coming before us today. I know this is not easy. And it is very important that both of you are respected during the course of this hearing. Mr. Ziegler, in your deposition to the ways and Means Committee, i believe that i believe you said that you began this investigation in 2018, correct . That is correct. So, some of the events that you discussed in your deposition took place two, three, four years ago, correct . Or less general years . That would be correct. In your deposition in front of the ways and Means Committee, and in your testimony before today, you have relayed your memory of events that i have heard over the course of a nearly fiveyear investigation. And mr. Ziegler, when you testify before the ways and Means Committee, you also testified that you were told that it was then attorney general, william barr, who made the decision to merge with the d. C. And delaware hunter biden investigations, correct . I did testify to that, correct. A few weeks after that testimony, your attorney wrote in a letter, to congress, i quote, mr. Zieglers confidence he was told by the supervisor that the merging of the cases was at the direction of an official at the department of justice. However, on further reflection, mr. Ziegler cannot definitively state that is then supervisors said that the department of justice official directed a merger of the cases was attorney general barr, correct . That is correct, i can tell you that i actually refreshed my memory from looking at that email. There was an email that i found for my supervisor at that time, that stated what had happened. I can turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee at some point. And in that updated email, didnt include attorney general barr or not . I cant speak to the content of that email. No problem. I think in light of the correction, and truly in good faith, these things happen all the time, right . The recollection of these investigations require an extraordinary amount of detail, and the charges of what is being brought forward today are extremely serious. Which require a high threshold of evidence. Including investigations of depositions. But i hope you agree, even the best memory can be fallible at times. And that is the widely understood reality in our Justice System. Mr. Shapley, from your testimony today, i think you would agree that its important that criminal investigations be conducted fairly and free from political influence. Thats why were here today, correct . Yes, correct. As you stated and was discussed with mr. And others, often disagreements, it seems as though it would be some of the transcribed interviews we read, it says you have about 90 of the time, there is an irs reviewing attorney disagree with the charging decisions the agents in the group, correct . That was part of this testimony, not all of it. In some of your comments, you also noted that youve made reference to special counsel in this situation. But i believe, there might be a reference to here, the question of a special attorney, not a special counsel, correct . So, if you speak about october 7th 2022 email that i documented contemporaneously on that day, thats why i documented it on that day. So nine months later, im not trying to recall the specific words. So, its a special counsel authority, thats what he said, that day. Thats what a Senior Executive irs corroborated when he responded to my emails. I do think that depiction is important. In this letter to chairman jordan, the issue at hand seems to be a special attorney. Not a special counsel. Which are two distinct, different legal authorities. There also maybe some confusion, i think, with respect to that as well. Which brings me to the point of political influence. Where there actually is a set of bread crumbs, isnt a set of tweets and letters sent from former President Trump to several chairs, to the chair of the House Judiciary Committee that we see here, in fact, according to New York Times article, which id like to present to the record today, President Trumps attorney wrote to the Judiciary Committee chairman, urging him to investigate what he called, quote, a rogue local District Attorney. And after that they convened a grand jury that ultimately indicted donald trump. Chairman dorman did not comply with that letter. Shortly after President Trumps attorneys sent that letter to the committee, which is highly unusual, a very highly unusual act. In fact, after that, on march 20th, chairman jordan, together with the committee on house administration, chairman brian steele, as well as the chairman of this committee, wrote to District Attorney bragg, and then demanded a sweeping series of documents, including communications between the d. A. s office and the department of justice, also highly unusual. In fact, on the truth social account later on, donald trump claimed that the u. S. Attorney investigating hunter biden, a u. S. Attorney by the way that donald trump appointed, was, quote, a coward. And then in that he then urged that maybe the presiding judge will have the courage and insight to break up this, quote, pool of crime. Curiously, just a few days after this tweet, the chairman of the ways and Means Committee, jason smith, sent a letter to u. S. Attorney david weiss, and attorney general merrick garland. Who are implicated in this hearing. Ask explicitly to place the whistleblower testimony from the committees depositions, into the court record, which were addressed during the chairmans opening statements. Before Hunter Bidens plea hearing at the end of the month. As you can see, right in your statement, chairman smith explicitly said, and i quote, answering that information into the formal record. Additionally, those two chairman on this hearing today. Highly unusual. With the gentlelady yield . One moment. When we talk about political influence, we are not here today, unfortunately, because of the fact that brought us here. We are here today because donald trump is exerting an influence campaign. In congress, when he is no longer president of the United States. And addition to that, if we want to talk about charges that have been dismissed, and if we do want to follow the evidence, perhaps we should discuss ivanka trumps investigation in charge with felony fraud, after Donald Trumps personal attorney provided political contributions to the local dea, those charges were dismissed, and ultimately, we saw that dea vance, President Trumps attorney provided over 50,000 in political contributions after the case was dismissed. Can we talk about political contributions, i would hope that were following the evidence that we are willing, that this committee, is gonna go there, that they be willing to open an investigation into the political charges against ivanka trump. And, by the way, if the gentlelady from georgia wanted to follow evidence, we should also take a look at hypothetically a case where sex trafficking charges against a 17 year old girl, potentially gentleladys times expired. Thank, you i yield back. The general chairman recognizes mr. Gosar of arizona, for five minutes. Thank, you mister chairman. Chairman comer and his team have done a great job of uncovering millions of dollars sent to hunter biden from foreign sources located in places like china, romania, and the ukraine. Pretty obvious that Hunter Bidens only avenue for making money is the influence of his father. The only thing missing is direct evidence that joe biden knew and participated in these bribery schemes. That is where you brave men have done it. Your investigative efforts have the potential to uncover direct evidence in this and in some cases it did. Very hindered by doing their jobs by the department of justice did today. As mr. Shapley put it, quote, at every stage citizens remain to benefit the subject of this investigation. And quote. As hunter biden in my extension, joe biden. These men are not political people. Theyre hardworking agents, the last thing you want to do is im not gonna stick to, ill stick to confirming the most egregious examples of prosecutorial misconduct in the doj. Leave it up to the American People to draw their own conclusions. Mr. Shapley, under u. S. Stacks law, taxes owed on all income received from Legal Service sources, right . Yes. Hypothetically, if a person subject to u. S. Taxes receives 1 Million Dollars for serving oil company, those taxes on that 1 million, and what is 38 . Correct . Through u. S. Taxpayers, yes. To declare the receipt of such income violate u. S. Tax bill, correct . Yes, it would. To paying the tax own in a timely violates the tax, code correct . Yes, it does. And the tax code has criminal and Civil Penalties for violations, correct . That is correct. In a hypothetically, a person received 1 Million Dollar payment, and it conveys 10 of that amount to another person, that person making that payment may have to pay a gift tax on that amount, correct . If they face the gift, yes. Conversely, the person receiving the money has to pay income tax on them, as well correct. On the gift portion, they would have to report the gift on their tax returns. I dont believe the taxes. The failure to do that, is subject to Civil Penalties, correct . Yes. Filing false tax returns is against the law, yes. Is there definite confirmation that all the evidence on the hunter biden laptop has been reviewed by federal agents and prosecutors . The prosecutor stated that evidence was withheld for the investigators, we dont know how much. The doj prosecutors allow your team to access . Could you repeat the question . The doj prosecutors allow your team to access the laptop . Doj prosecutors. When the laptop comes into the computer investigative specialist that reviewed the laptop, they create reports and pull stuff from it. Looking at anything on the laptop, right . We saw some, but not all. Okay. Is it normal for the doj to deny this type of investigators . No, thats the first time ive experience being limited to evidence. Did sustain attorney wolf corroborate the data on the left of . That she collaborated out on a laptop . I wouldnt know. Okay. I guess my question comes back, and the reason i went down this rabbit hole, is it your conclusion that you are interfered with, and that those that interfered with you our are as guilty as those creating the problem . Or the accessories to a crime . Is what im getting to . I would agree theyre investigative steps they were deathly obstructed by doj, that ive never seen in my 14 years. And honestly, it just makes no sense. We wouldnt want to collect all the evidence available. I cant opine on your second part of your question. Gotcha. Mr. Ziegler, the video did the doj prosecutors deny requests to look into the same, quote, im sitting here with my father, texting hunter biden. That they allow you to obtain the location intermission where that text was sent from . I know it was an issue that came up, whether we can get a location data, i know that that was a conversation that i wouldve had with the assigned prosecutors. I recall them saying to me, how do we know that hes there . How do we know that thats true . The statement thats being made there. We will get a location data. So, a part of my normal investigation, thats what i would do. What i can tell you, i know i didnt do it. I dont know if the fbi ever ended up doing, it kind of lake erie lets wait, i dont need to think i need to think about. I guess was the proper response. Gotcha. My time is up, i yield back. Gentlemans times expired. Chaired a recognizes miss brown. Miss brown for five minutes. Thank you, mister chairman. The American People have lost track of your supposed investigation of President Biden. Or is about investigation of his son, who does not and has never worked at the white house. Or another family member. We cant even follow which investigation were discussing today, is at the fbi, the irs, or something new . I know the American People are confused, because were all confused what were doing here. Nothing, this majority has claimed about the president or his family has merit. No wonder the folks back home are tuning out of this confused mess. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle have shredded all their credibility in this committee. They simply grasp at straws that do not exist. In this congress so far, weve held more hearings on gas stoves and gun violence. And culture wars than Kitchen Table issues. So, lets talk about the real two tiered Justice System. The one in which Big Corporations pollute the air we breathe, and the big banks called meltdowns with their negligence and not one person is held criminally liable. Theyre certainly not called by the majority to sit before this committee. Or, mister chairman, what if we talked about the other unspoken two tiered Justice System in this country. The one where people of color are subject to a deliberately harsher system at every turn, from policing to prison, temporal. In this country, a black person is five times more likely to be stopped without due cars then a white person. And black defendants are 25 more likely to be held pretrial. Meanwhile, the twice indicted former president is out campaigning around the country, and didnt even have to post bail. Yet, hundreds of thousands of americans sit behind bars, waiting for their day in court. These are the types of lived experiences we should be addressing in this Oversight Committee. This is the real two tiered Justice System. And its the Justice System democrats are trying to fix after four years of donald trump. Congressional republicans, however, are working to make these unequality is worse through their efforts to defund the irs and other democratic priorities. Included in the inflation reduction act. Since my colleagues claim to want stricter irs enforcement, you would think we would at least agree on giving the irs its proper funding. Let me conclude by asking a simple question, mr. Shapley, yes or no, do you know the rate at which black taxpayers are audited as compared to taxpayers who are not black . No, i dont know. The answer is black taxpayers are audited at 2. 9 to 4. 7 times the rate of non black taxpayers. Another question for you, sir, yes or no, will this hearing help alleviate the Racial Disparity in the race of the irs audits . No, with that, i yield my time. I will yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member. Thank you kindly, for your excellent questioning and stay with their. The chairman of the jewish Judiciary Committee, when she was here, advice on us to believe that the u. S. Attorney for delaware had changed his tune or changed his story. When you look at the letters he actually sent, he didnt change his tune at all. Expanded the answer to be perfectly clear in his june 7th letter he said ive been granted ultima thule over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where weather and went to file charges for making decisions necessary to preserve the integrity of the prosecution. In the federal laws for the federal prosecution in apartment a regulations. In other words, its up to him. For the u. S. Attorney. Then, in june 30th, the letter of the chairman on the second in my june 7th letter. Understated, quote i have been ultimately including responsibility for deciding when to file charges et cetera. I stand by what i wrote. And wish to expand on what this means. This is the heart of what were doing here today. As the u. S. Attorney for the district of delaware, my charging authority is geographically limited to my home district. Tom interdepartmental practices. The context of u. S. Attorneys office for the District Attorney says that whether or not they want to part on the case. If not, i might request a special attorney satisfy the attorney generals pursuant to 28 5 15. Here i say its necessary. I would be granted section authority in the district of columbia, the central issue to california, or any other district or charges could be brought in this matter. It is the difference, as ocasiocortez was saying, between special counsel and special attorney which could explain the in any event that the u. S. Attorney for delaware had one of the authority that they had with whatever he wanted and she is the witness for that. I yield back to the gentleman. Id like to be clear that he was assured of that authority. And he said he was referred. He is limited within delaware. Youre not a lawyer, right . You dont work in the department of justice. Hes explaining what the rules are. You timers experience. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Sigal, thank you for being here today. Blowing the whistle against the man as well connected as biden is truly courageous, a truly courageous act. I hope that all of my colleagues can appreciate that as well. Mr. Shabbily, i would like to start with the simple question. When did you start your career as an investigator with the irs . July of 2009. Thank you. What year were you promoted to supervisory role . 2018. It is 14 years of service with the irs, five of those years in a Senior Leadership position, correct . That is correct. Did you ever in your 14 years cnn vessel geisha be handled in the same manner as the one we are here to discuss today . The one in Hunter Bidens taxes . I have not. When were you made supervisor to the investigation of mr. Biden Operation Fund . January of 2020. By your estimate, at that time, when did you initially believe that the evidence was sufficient to request physical search warrants in california, arkansas, new york, and washington, d. C. . Special agent ziegler draft the affidavit in april or may. That was when i had that search warrant. Of 2020 . 2020. It was a short time after that you begin to illustrate that career officials at the d. C. Oj were dragging their feet regarding the next steps in the investigation. Is that correct . Yes, that is correct. Two months later in june of 2020, you came to the belief expressing as such in communications with the irs leadership that if normal procedures had been followed, did these search warrants wouldve already been executed. Is that correct . Yes. Was that within the typical timeframe for the self imposed investigative pause did the doj historically has to implement in cases preceding elections . The official department of justice Public Integrity stand down came on september 4th of 2020. After the initial step were inexplicably denied, prosecutors continued to decline to advance on promising leads. They were, for example, many problematic Text Messages and emails on the infamous laptop in august of 2020. When were you informed that the doj wouldnt allow physical search warrants on hunter biden . I dont recall the exact date. And i think its in the confines of our testimony. We can provide that information to the house Means Committee, a clarification of that. That can clarify that issue. My understanding is that it was october of 2020, but we appreciate your clarification. The assistant u. S. Secretary wolfs decision not to execute a search warrant on hunter biden, does that strike you as a typical, mr. Shabbily . Generally, in any other investigation, we have probable cause. We believe theres evidence in that location they could prove or violation. We would execute that search warrant. It was an unusual election. Yes, congresswoman. Is it fair to conclude that this pattern involves a typical and sometimes bullet bewildering actions taken by doj and the District Attorneys office, happening over the course of the entire investigation and not just one or two occurrences . That is correct. It was the pattern that really drove me to one of the things that drove me to come forward about that deviation from a normal investigative process. In your opinion, did these odd, a typical, and bewildering actions bolstered where have the investigation . I believe they hurt the investigation. I would say theres something rotten in the state of delaware. Whats happened here with hunter biden would not have happened to other americans, and its totally unfair. I think that is very important that we get to the bottom of this investigation. And find out who has been obstructing this sense of justice, the American People demand justice. This committee demands justice, along with the other committees involved. I thank you for this hearing. Thank you to our witnesses. I would like to get right into some basic vetting questions. Unfortunately, our colleagues across the aisle failed to do so with some of the previous witnesses that they called. Mr. Ziegler and shabbily, i am hoping that these are very simple, straightforward questions. Id like to ask that you answered them with a yes or no answer. Mr. Shabbily, are you now, or have you ever acted in the unregistered Foreign Agent for the chinese government, or for any other government . No. Mr. Ziegler, are you now, or have ever acted as an unregistered or a registered Foreign Agent . No. Have you ever participated in illegal arms trafficking . I have not. And mr. Ziegler, how about yourself . I have not. Mr. Shabbily, have you ever been indicted of a crime, lied to investigators well under oath, or run from the law . I have not. Mr. , ziegler same question to you. Have you ever been indicted, lied to investigators, or run from the law . I have not. Thank you for answering those questions. Obviously to as these clarifying questions, given the majority of track record not to mention their own president ial candidate, it seems necessary to clarify for our american folks there listening today. Lets get into the kinds of crimes that the majority claims they are interested in investigating here in the Oversight Committee, and namely political influence, abuse of power, and other alleged crimes via a president and their relations. Again, because time is limited, i like to ask our witnesses a two billion dollar investment from the saudi government after working for his father in law. Is that correct . Thank you for the question. Im here to talk about the hunter biden investigation. It is a widely known fact, and i appreciate your response. Mr. Ziegler, youre aware that while serving as a Senior Adviser to her father, ivanka trump had a number of trademarks fasttracked by the chinese government. Correct . Again, i have to stick to the confines of my transcript. I appreciate that. Finally, i want to remind everybody that the person who appointed u. S. Attorney general david weese to handle the matter that were here to discuss today was donald trump. This would be the same president , donald trump, the man twice impeached for abuses of power, and of course, recently indicted for 37 counts of criminal activities. One would think that in the Oversight Committee, we would want to investigate such blatant acts of criminal activity, and i truly could not agree more with evidence, did there should not be a two tiered system of justice for those that are powerful, and those that are wealthy, and those that are not. Its actually with this hearing is about here today. Its clear that this is another attempt by the majority to turn this committee into another donation to the trump campaign. Just follow us on an earlier attempt this past month to undermine the fbi with a controversial market, which thankfully did not occur. The very same day that donald trump was indicted under the 37 counts. In fact, if you look across the aisle, there are 13 members who have already endorsed donald trump. Here we are trying to distract the American People once more, even though it was a political appointee, appointed by donald trump, who was at the helm of this effort when the issues that we are discussing occurred. And yet we are using the committees resources to advance this agenda. Its important that the American People actually understand that the real criminal, the actual threat to our Democratic Institutions is donald trump. The man found legally liable for sexual abuse. The man who refused to return classified documents to the government. The man who was inciting an insurrection that led to the deaths of five people, and threaten the lives of people in this very room, and who threatens the very foundation of our democracy i. Find it hard to believe that the members who witnessed the insurrection who, witnessed these criminal indictments continue, to stand here today with donald trump and prop him up using committee resources, and i urge my colleagues to take a hard look at the mirror and really respect what the oath of office means. With that. I yield back. The chair reckons the from louisiana. Were going to be moving fast year. Let me make a statement. Lets just clarify for american. Republicans are only interested in Hunter Bidens deceptions regarding his irs confirmed receipt of 17 point 3 million from shady sources in ukraine and romania and china, while he had nothing to sell. He had no product, no service, no skill. All he had to sell was corrupted access to his father, the big guy. Guy how dare congressman higgins call the president of the United States i would call the big guy, december 30th 2020. This investigative chapman. And a 12 hour long meeting with the u. S. Attorneys office of delaware, shabbily shares an irs planned interview, associate rob walker, objecting to this plan to the dismay of those in the room. She said we dont want to ask about the big guy, stated that she did not want to ask about that. December 8th, 2020. Investigators shabbily investigators ziegler, meeting with a special agent stating that they would accept service with documents request and declined request for the interview. The irs investigator where only it will do in the that day, investigations revealed to the press, december 9th 20, 20, he the wolf gets involved again. Interrupts investigations. December 14th, 2020. Assistant u. S. Attorney wolf gets off biden kelso by an irs plan, it reached the threshold of probable cause to execute a search warrant on a storage unit in northern virginia. U. S. Attorney wolf calls Hunter Bidens attorney and alert him to the pending search warrants being executed. You stated, investigator shabbily, that at every stage during your investigation, decisions were made that benefited the subject of the investigation. Who was the subject of the investigation good, sir . Hunter biden. Thank you very much i think a. Clarified for america why we were interested in hunter biden. He sold access to his father the big, guy. You americans out there, theyve got a compromise, a president in the white house. You should certainly be concerned. Ah mr. Ziegler, how did the irs investigation regarding hunter biden begin . Tell us briefly. It was a review of bank records regarding another investigation that i was working. It is ancillary to another criminal investigation. Is that correct, sir . You are a criminal investigator is that correct. , sir . Correct. Not civil . That is correct. Thank you very much. Investigators happily, in the september 3rd, 2020 meeting with the Prosecution Team for the hunter biden case, assistant u. S. Attorney leslie wolf told your team that there was more than enough probable cause for the physical search warrant of the guesthouse at then former Vice President delaware resident where, hunter biden had stayed. Did u. S. Attorney leslie wolf confirm your investigative efforts that you had sufficient probable cause for search . She did. Thank you very much. As you told congress, assistant u. S. Attorney wolf also said that the question was whether the juice was worth the squeeze. Thats a quote. Optics were driving factors in the decision on whether to execute a search warrant. Optics . Have you ever run into that, mr. Shepley . I have not. Have youve missed, or ziegler . I have not. Then why do you think the department of justice might be concerned about optics in a search of the president s sons residence during the course of a criminal investigation . Mr. Shabbily . Because the sensitivity is involved in that search warrant. It would its pretty clear. Theres another search warrant. Ill touch on in my remaining section ah. Gentlemen, your courage for coming forward. And you gave him with an oath you. Upheld that oath. Yes i have. Is it your Core Principles that have driven you to reveal the corruption that you have witnessed in your criminal investigation coming before Congress Today . It was. Thank you. Mister chairman a yield,. Very good. The chair now recognizes mr. Gomez for five minutes. I garcia. Lets first zero in on the bottom line. What we have our two irs investigators who clearly have worked very hard on the hunter biden investigation. Thank you both for being here today. You both gave recommendations to prosecutors based on your work, which you described today. Donald trump handpicked prosecutor, and then made recommendations to charge hunter. He acted independently, and he himself has confirmed this. You did your job making recommendations. And then the prosecutor did his job. You dont have to agree with this conclusion, but its the bottom line of what we have today after this hearing. Todays hearing is like most of the majoritys investigations hearings. A lot of allegations. Zero proof, no receipts, but apparently at a certain point, the American People need some actual evidence. Actual evidence. We have seen absolutely none. Lets go back and review what has gone over the course of the last seven months for this Smear Campaign against the white house. First, the committee is clearly obsessed with hunter biden. Massively obsessed with him. Keep in mind, theres been no evidence of any wrongdoing or transaction of the person that is actually in government. Joe biden. A lot about hunter, not a lot about joe biden. Hunter biden, i want to remind the majority, hes actually not the president of the United States. I want to point out that no fight and family members hold government positions of any kind. This is of course in stark contrast to the trump crime family. The majority conveniently glazes over the trump familys foreign dealings. The trump family, who of course were actually appointed to white house senior jobs. To ivankas chinese to the qatari real estate bailout, and two billion and saudi private equity money. Where is that investigation . They were actually in the investigation. Chris christie said it best. Of course, the former governor, this is his quote. The grift from the family is breathtaking. Its breathtaking. Jared kushner and Ivanka Kushner walk out of the white house, and months later get two billion from the saudis. Continue. You think its become some kind of investing genius, or is it because he was sitting next to the president of the United States for four years doing favors for the saudis . These are quotes from a man has known trump and kushners four years. These people were in the white house every day, formerly making policy unlike hunter biden. The biden family tax went nowhere. They tried to create a new storm, a new Conspiracy Theory about the socalled fbi ukraine document. Another fake scandal. This new fake scandal had a lot of hype, a lot of scary headlines from our chairman, from a lot of members of this committee. A lot of us essentially read the document. When you read the document, it is pretty clear that this was all hyped. Just a wild accusation being passed along to the accusation fbi with zero proof of where. Did this come from . Rudy giuliani. Just another Rudy Giuliani tinfoil hat Conspiracy Theory that went nowhere. Giuliani recommended and by the way, who is recommended to be there is no evidence that hunter evident the republican u. S. Attorneys got brady handpicked significant evidence the republicans were so desperate last week to find somebody that could tell them what they wanted to hear ah why is the socalled whistleblower missing . We dont know. Being searched upon after being arrested. Now so desperate to click this narrative, the elected critic. We have questions. Was the chairman or Committee Staff in contact when he was a fugitive . These are the real questions we need to ive never met gala left in my life. All i know is that he was getting money from the same company did the bidens are getting money from. I yield back. Thank you mister chairman. Im also looking for anybody on the committee, or Committee Members and any context is the president sent a chinese spy . What does taking company from the same one i mean . Mister chairman, you are hyping of a chinese spy and arms dealer for a week. Who cares if they had money from the same company . Just to finish up my time. Let me say that its clear to me this majority will stop at nothing to try and impeach President Biden, its phony general, secretary mayorkas, and the list goes on and on. Its just another witch hunt that the majority continues to do week after week. A majority trying to interfere in an ongoing legal proceeding to cause chaos and try to reelect donald trump. Who obviously is pulling this extremist agenda. I yield back. Chair, we recognize mr. Sessions from texas for five seconds thank you very much for taking time listening to it strongly identifying. Both of his chosen to do this as people who have an ethical and moral idea that your service to this country, we want to thank you. Today, weve got examples of the department of justice and irs having not just given special treatment to those who have committed tax evasion and financial fraud with the president s family, but i think theres another point that we would want to make today. That is that i believe taxpayer systems with the agency is tasked with enforcing the laws fairly on regular citizens, is also seeking the chance to shield well connected to the president of the United States from consequences of the illegal behavior and direct opposition to our nations founding principles. We have established that. I think that its pretty clear what you have said today. I have a question for both of you because i believe that today, the hearing goes beyond that. That is that there are strong well protected over 20 302. The whistleblower protection act which affords you and any other person who works in this government the protections from retaliation after making a leap of legally protected disclosure, doing your job, you found like there is something wrong. You said something about it, and you filed for whistleblower status because you believed that something was being held against you. In fact, both of you had made several legally protected disclosures during this time for the record. Is that correct . That is correct. After making the disclosure to the committee, did the irs comply with the statutory required whistleblower protections . How are you treated in this endeavor . I will start. Since i made these protected disclosure, theyre legally protected. The irs chose to retaliate against me in multiple ways. Even, now there is a Major Case Initiative to actually especially with ziegler, starting as well. They are now being put on a backburner , but again, there is that immediate supervisor and two levels above him, hasnt spoken to me since june 1st of 2023. Even im sending them emails and conducting the business on a daily basis. Theyve literally not spoken to me and it really becomes when Senior Leadership cuts of communication and increases the chance of some of the Senior Leadership, weve got no support from them. Mr. Ziegler . I made the disclosures up to the commissioner of the irs. If said what happened. The response that i got a few days later was that i might have broken the law and, dont ever do this again. You emails need to go through leadership. To have that come to me was telling. I cant even put words to it. What i can say is that there are some people in my agency, in my leadership that have been a person that i can go to for support, but the vast majority is just that impact on the person. Its awful. Thats why the law exists. I want both of you to know as the subcommittee for this committee, government reform and oversight, government accountability, i will be coming to the irs, and i will be going to other agencies specifically about their retaliation under the law within their agencies. That we should take as a committee, a whole committee and subcommittee, very seriously. This could be a number of matters that are taking place where people have chilling impact against the laws of the United States of america. Gentlemen, ive been taking notes, i want to thank you for being here today. Mister chairman, thank, you i yield back my time. The gentleman yields back. Chair recognize mr. Foster from florida. Thank, you mister chairman, and thank you for your Service Working at the irs. Its very important work. Lets get right into it. Mr. Shabbily, you are blowing the whistle today because you feel like the department of justice provided preferential treatment to hunter biden, is that correct . You believe that hunter biden received that preferential treatment because his father is the democratic president , joe biden, is that correct . I cannot conclude why he is receiving the preferential treatment, but that is one conclusion you can come to you. Its evident in your deposition that you believe that. , where you suggest that there is no conspiracies i play, a two tiered Justice System which privileges democrats over republicans. Thats what theyre using your story for, and using your work, making this argument its cooping the language of the decadeslong Civil Rights Movement for black lives in black freedom, movement nemours a two tiered Justice System, its not about democrats versus republicans. This language has the real history. Its got a real history of emmett till. It has a real history with breonna taylor. The central part fly, a young man who is just killed in Central Florida we could go. Its got a real history with four black boys from Central Florida who were falsely accused of kidnapping and sexually assaulting a white woman when they pulled over to help her when the car was broken. The fourth boy who is not pictured here was not apprehended initially. He was actually shot to death by police. A 100 mob wanted to get their hands on the remaining three black boys included, and so they took it out on the predominantly black town, shooting residents, looting, setting fires to their homes. Charles greenly, he was sentenced to prison for life. He was 16 years old. Just a quick trigger warning here for black death and trauma, but its an important story to tell when we talk about the two tiered Justice System. On the way back from the courthouse, sheriff took it upon himself to shoot the two remaining individuals, Walter Irvine and samuel shepard. Walter irvin actually ended up living because when he was shot, he played dead. The other one was shot and killed, samuel shepard. They were both handcuffed, as you can see in the photo, and was shot to death. They all died in either prison or on parole as can be convicted criminals. In 2021, 70 years later, a judge exonerated them. The trial was considered a fraud. In closing, there is a two tiered Justice System. It does exist. It is not what my republican colleagues want to say it is using your story for. That is not republicans versus democrats. Its black, brown, and poor people versus everyone else. I will not accept one republican politicians like to appropriate the language of the movement for black lives and civil rights that have been a political agenda to defend donald trump. This is the two Justice System. This is the two to Justice System. We have to continue to fight for a world where this doesnt happen. This case about hunter biden is a case closed. I will close with the question for the chairman. Considering the quote, fosters, abuses and misrepresentations of sensitive information, when were done with this madeup investigation, are you expected to the reason i ask is because its in line with the logic and actions of the republican party. Thank you and i yield back. Thank you very kindly. Mr. Ziegler, you referred to an fbi supervisor special agent who went with you to try and interview hunter biden. Is that somebody that you respect . That was not me. That wouldve been my supervisor. You went with this essay, is that somebody that you respect . Yes i respect the fbi faa. Because he came and did an interview with us and said that he testified in his decade of experience through the delaware u. S. Attorneys office, the never you the or the to allow any Political Considerations to influence the prosecutorial decisions. Do you accept his judgment or do you disagree with his judgment about that . Yes, the fbi as aar respect, and its a matter of timing. He retired in june of 2022. At that time, i hadnt even overcome the burden that it took me to say this has been political, its been politicized. It was not until october 7th, 2022. And so the fbi essay a, he came to his conclusions and wasnt there for that. Can i mention something . I respect very mature service, and i respect very much your testimony today. I think that it is completely within the realm of prosecutorial discretion and subjective differences of opinion that people have. Those arrested have been in prosecuting understand that happens all the time with prosecutors and investigators. The chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona, mr. Bags for five minutes. Thank you, good to have you here. We appreciate it, appreciate your courage. Your willingness to testify. Mr. Shipley, im going to go to pages 18 to 20 of your testimony. Mr. Ziegler, im going to go about page one of four to 105 of yards to start with. While you are going, there i want to ask this question. Weve heard a lot about this 2014 to 2015, 2016 tax note. Trumps if hurdle out about trump. In 2014, 15, and 16, those text years, donald trump wasnt elected. Who is the Vice President of the United States . You know . Joe biden was the president of the United States. Thats right. When the statute of limitation ran on those 14 and 15 years, who was the president of the United States . When the stat sheet expired . There was President Biden. And in the statements and i want to go over it. Mr. Shipley, why did you want to interview rob walker . I think special agent ziegler would be better to answer that question. On page 18 of your testimony, mr. Shipley. Can you repeat the question . A rephrase the question. On the day of action you are planning on interviewing 12 people. One of them was robbed of her, a business associate of hunter biden. In particular, you want to talk about i think the quote is, the big guy. Who did you inferred the big guy might be . All i can do is speak to the evidence. Would i could say is that i think i know what youre referring to. We are preparing for that interview, and we are referencing that email, from what i understand that is to be his dad, President Biden. I just want to ask mr. Shipley a similar question. They interjected, and immediate transcript now. She said she did not want to ask about the big day. They were not want to ask the questions about that in quotes. Would you take the ad to be when she refers to dad . Biden. Even by her response, she is referring that joe biden might be involved in Hunter Bidens transactions. Then you get to the fbi agent, and you gets detail about his you get that detail about what hes saying, the transcript of the fbi agent asks mr. Walker. You definitely get the feeling that was orchestrated by hunter biden, having an appearance by his dad at the meeting to kind of bolster your chance to make that deal work out. Walker answered, sure, did you hear hunter biden sitting at that meeting with his dad, when he was still in office . Walker answered yes. Thats the quote that you gave to him in your transcript. The question there is, what did you infer . Then you said the fbi agent inexplicably seizes that line of questioning. I want to note the fbi agent the business transactions for what he is still in office. I cant go beyond the testimony. Ill just leave it there. Mr. Ziegler, on page 104 of yours, you mentioned that mr. Biden, hunter biden attempted to on his return for hotel rooms used by his father, joe biden. Tell us about that. On his tax return, he read today hotel room for his dad, joe biden. We actually got the envoys from the hotel that shows the dads name on it. For that to be a valid business deduction, he would have to be doing that business with hunter biden. Is that not true . Typically the part of the process would be to interview that person, to find out what might have happened. Why did you go to that hotel room. Based on statements that he made in his book, you can correlate what was kind of going on around that time. How does this become a valid business detection if joe bidens just they are on vacation . Generally speaking, to be a valid business deduction it would have to be a sort of Business Activity being conducted at that time. The whatsapp where he says hes sitting, my dads sitting next to me, for one of, five thats where you talk about it, page 105 of your transcript. I think the question is, how would you be able to determine whether those rooms, whether he was actually next to hunter biden. How djibouti able to determine that . Typically, in that situation, you want to get location data. Contemporaneous data that would show where that thank you so much. From pennsylvania . Republicans have been invoking this term two tiered system of justice a lot recently. I want to talk about the real two tiered Justice System is, they are over criminalized and over incarcerated. On june 20th, chairman comer claimed in the Committee Press release, quote, the department of justice revealing a two tiered system of justice. As you see, or have seen from the also using this phrase in connection would like to address the way that my republican colleagues have attempted to coopt a phrase with the two just assistant to make it seem like trump and his cronies are now the victims here, when the reality is that the term two tiered system of justice is meant to refer to the very real system that exist in the United States, in which black and brown folks, not powerful former president s and their political allies. The real two tiered system of justice is one in which in 2021, according to the the imprisonment rate 11. 6 the real two teenage the imprisonment rate for american males, 5. 1 times the rate for white males. The two tubes Justice System is one in which according to the may 2018 evidence blackmun comprise about 13 of the population, meanwhile 35 of those are incarcerated. One in three black men born today can expect to be incarcerated, meanwhile one in six latino men are the two to just assist him is one in which 1 million traffic stops found that black drivers were 20 more likely to be stopped than white drivers. My republican colleagues seem to think that using criminal law as a weapon, or a Political Tool is objectionable only when directed against somebody that should be out of reach for the criminal system. Somebody too rich, too powerful, or two white to be charged. Lets face it. That same system has been used as a weapon and Political Tool against black people since the emancipation proclamation. These Racial Disparities the two tier system on race. Believing that by people were inferior, that would create to justify the enslavement of five people which is now involved to include the belief that black people were prone to criminality. During the decades of lynching that followed inflation, and white people descended the torture and murder of black people as necessary to protect property. Families, a way of life nixons war on crime evolved from his war on drugs. And in both cases, it was by people they were targeted and suffered under those policies. Theres a reason black crack cocaine, which carries the stereotype of by people was at one point punished far more harshly than powdered cocaine. 100 and went, meaning the somebody convicted in federal court of possessing crack cocaine will receive the same sentence as somebody who possess 100 times more powder cocaine. I want to say that the, extent sing overwhelmingly impacting people of color. Most importantly, black people, who make up less than 11 of the population in pennsylvania. More than 65 of those serving life without parole sentences, and 58 of those serving non life sentences of 20 years or longer. How many times have our elected officials ran on a promise of a tough on crime approach . Even now, the party of law and order, in the same breath charging you to not be prosecuted. Dont get it twisted. Republican efforts to for the two to justice, truly the victims whether we say it out loud or not, we dont know who those people are. I yield the thank you for the very eloquent statement. You might be too young for this. When there is this horrific assault, gang in central park. Donald trump ran ads in the New York Times saying that the central park suspect should be given the death penalty. Of course, they turned out to be completely innocent of the offense. I think that is just to reinforce your point that theres a history of profound racism in the criminal Justice System and rhetoric around it. Theres something very disappointing about the colleagues coopting in prosecuting the critique of your system as to cheered on behalf of donald trump. I yield back to you thank you mister chairman for holding in 2020, including hunter biden, if they only got one here. As rob walker. Friend of the biden family. He sent millions of dollars to the biden originating in romania and china. President biden said his family didnt receive money from china but it, wasnt true, mr. Shapely, according to testimony on page 18 december, third 2020, did you have a long meeting with the Prosecution Team and the u. S. Attorneys office to delaware . Its great december 30. 2020,. Is it true the u. S. Attorney weiss was in and out of that meeting that is true . During the. Meeting did, you share your plant did you share your plane to interview Hunter Bidens associate rob walker . All of the interview lines were sent across. You wanted to question walker but the millet said that was included in the interview align. U. S. Attorney leslie wolf said that she didnt want to ask questions about that meeting joe biden, is that correct. . A thats correct. Assistant u. S. Attorney general wolf was you, felt, conceding the bigots joe biden . I think thats accurate. I dont want to conclude which he was thinking. He did have an interview with rob walker at arkansas correct, i . Did not but agents , did. Did rob what could tell you that the President Biden hit ever showed up to a meeting with his Business Associates you . He told us that he hadnt showed up at that meeting can you elaborate. On the i . Can a least to whats in the transcript and witness described since were cfc executives was people on the cfc were meeting at a four seasons subjects father president. Biden, showed up at that meeting President Biden was. Theyre physically thats with the witness said . Yes mr. Xi, great maybe im going back here a little. , bit further but earlier today you wanted to elaborate. And one of your questions, you are cut off by one of the democratic congressman. Is there anything you want to say the you are not able to. Say i appreciate that . I wanted to say the one thing which was mentioned regarding. The retired fbi supervisory special agent ive actually reached out to some of my colleagues that i worked with this investigation, and ask them was there anything and misstated in the chant shift they said no from, their best understanding of reading it i want to be clear on that they have read my transcripts they referenced . The day. Did. , food, they have had any issues with i set up by transcript thank you mr. Shapely anything else i wanted to speak briefly about our criminal. Tax internees and, . Irish investigations they are only. Advisory i cant recall an instance where they. Ive not concurred with any of my action and within the group and it. We didnt send it forward anyway. Through what the Senior Leadership approval is the issue is the manner in which it became a non. Concur the c t attorney that took more than 50 days to review all of the evidence. She concurred with all of the charges in that. Prosecution report and when she sent it forward a panel of five lawyers at the, criminal tax, attorneys they concurred with the, he was all of the charges that were recommended it then went to the Senior Leadership of the council. The top said that you need the, changes for the non concur even Something Like that could happen in. Practice i contacted the line attorney. We did know this would be a non concur. They told us they didnt always been a non concur. Basically the options for the entire event which occurred at the senior level with the panel in green the law, and recommended to. Concurred those charges. Lie to us and provide that false information for it being a nonconcur the entire time, and especially for ziegler they had some, communication with a line, you know that they are saying that its always been a non concur she. Confirmed, she said what no . That was the issue with the its something that i wanted to add to the congressman back there. Just one other thing with regard to what happened in central park years ago, this characterization of what happened there is, im sure very hurtful and harmful for the central park jogger. Theres more to that story. Thank you. The request of witnesses, we are going to take two more questions, and then we will have another ten minute recess. I will just recognize mr. Costar, and then mr. Donald. Right now, the chair recognizes texas from five minutes. Its clear from this hearing that democrats are pro accountability, equal treatment under the law, and are paying its clear from this hearing that democrats are pro accountability, equal treatment under the law, and for paying your taxes. In the hunter biden case we have heard that trump appointed u. S. Attorney took the extensive work from the irs investigation and got the most severe penalty that he thought was possible. And he was held accountable. But there are so many millionaires and billionaires and Big Corporations that are never held accountable for tax evasion and in fact they are shielded by this gop majority. Republicans are not interested and that kind of accountability. Instead, they are interested in trying their hardest to embarrass the president and prevent our government from operating as it should. If republicans were truly interested in holding the powerful accountable, we would be Holding Hearings on making sure the irs has the resources to investigate every billionaire and every Big Corporation who cheats on their taxes. Instead, the first bill and voted on. The first bill brought forward by this republican majority was to slash funding dedicated to the irs in order to chase down billionaire tax cheats. That would have brought us more revenue for us if we spent money on the irs to chase down tax cheats that wouldve brought more revenue to the United States and reduce deficits and improve programs for the American People. 2021 Treasury Department paper found the wealthiest 1 may owe more than 160 billion in uncollected tax. According to the New York Times, quote, text complaint rates for high and, sorry, high Tax Compliance rates are high for low and middle income workers who have their taxes deducted automatically from their paychecks pick the rich, however, are able to use accounting loopholes to shield their tax liabilities so i would like to reiterate. Low and middle income americans have high Tax Compliance rates. They pay their taxes. It is the very wealthiest and the biggest corporations who refuse to pay their fair share and rigged the system here in d. C. In their favor. So mr. Chairman, i am interested in whether you could commit in short order to holding a hearing about holding billionaires and Big Corporations accountable for evading their taxes. I think this could be a bipartisan hearing that could result in reduction to the deficit and if we have interest in holding folks accountable and tax evasion, i think we should look at the biggest fish we can across the board. We are starting here today. And we can have and are having a hearing about accountability but what i want to know is why it is folks have voted for cutting billions of dollars in order to let folks off the hook. I would be interested and if we could have a hearing on the fact the irs has lost attrition thousands of employees including those with sophisticated skills. It used to be that 41,000 audits happened per year for millionaires 10 years ago. But in fiscal year 2020 the irs audited 11,000 billionaire returns. Only about 7100 of those returns were audited by revenue agents who were the most highly qualified auditors. I want to know. Can we have a hearing . This is something we could all get behind. Have a hearing about billionaires and Big Corporations at large scale. Potentially getting away from the latest reports we are talking about 160 billion in uncollected taxes. I would like to see if they could be interest from anyone on the other side of the island as having that kind of a hearing. Any interest . Really. I have over a minute of time. Mr. Sessions, that would be great. That would be a good hearing for us to have. We want everyone to follow the law. I agree and with that i yelled my time to the Ranking Member. Yield to the gentleman from new york. Thank you. I appreciate the gentleman from texas yielding. I want to bring up that october 7 meeting in the minute we have. You are fiddling with an october six Washington Post story entitled, federal agency chargeable tax gun purchase case against hunter biden . Is that right . Yes i am familiar. And this meeting occurred october 7, the day after this, rightclick that is correct. Was this article discussed . It was. And what was the nature of the discussion . It is in that document, the email that basically says weve got to keep the severe small. It was pretty clear though that this was a leak to the Washington Post by Law Enforcement agents since it describes what federal agents believe . It wasnt actually clear to me that it was because usually they will say is a Law Enforcement source that provided it. And if you see in the bottom it says they corroborated independently and did not mention Law Enforcement. You dont think is the federal agents who leaks this when the headline says, federal agents see chargeable tax gun purchase case against hunter biden . The time has expired but please answer the question. Prior to that if you go back to december 2020 there was another leak to the Washington Post that, i mean, we had to get the department of justice and oig involved and there were other lakes prior to this prior to the Washington Post that, i think, are important for us to understand, as well, in that situation . Similar information as the october 6 leak. The chair recognizes mr. Donalds from florida. Thank you, mr. Chairman. To the witnesses, thank you for being here today. I went to get to it because we have a lot to cover. Mr. Ziegler, you are the agent that opened up this investigation. From your transcript, page 17, what it says is that you were investigating a social Media Company and through the process of that investigation you found out that hunter biden was paying potentially for prostitutes and a potential prostitution ring. Is that correct . That is correct. You also say in the beginning phases of that investigation reviewing bank reports there was evidence he was living lavishly through his Corporate Bank account. Is that correct . And when i say him i mean hunter biden. That is correct. Question for you and mr. Shapely. Is it a clear line of potential investigation if somebody is charging a massive living expense through a corporate account and not doing that through their own personal accounts and accounting for that probably in the income tax return. Is that a basis for a criminal investigation . Generally speaking that would be a factor that was for criminal investigation. Yes. Let me ask you this question. So, there was reference to the whatsapp text message referring to , hey, im with my dad. Tell the chairman to give me my money because we remember and you will not forget because we are the bidens and we have all these connections. We all know that text message now. Mr. Ziegler, on page 105 of your testimony, you state, i know we wanted to get location data because i went to the prosecutors with this and they, again, came back at me with, well, how do we know that . He could just be lying and claiming that dad, joe biden now, that dad was there and that was not there. Were you allowed to get location data . Dealing with the whatsapp text message . From my memory of it and from the notes that were taken , i never obtained location data regarding that message. Did ms. Wolf, the ausa and delaware, did she say, look at this text message. Lets figure out the location data and see where hunter biden was when he said the sent message . Was she excited about this as a prosecutor . I mean, when i asked her about the location data come in her response right here it was her responding with, what how do we know that . It wasnt, yeah, lets try to figure it out. It was like, how do we know that . Did she read the text message . If i read that text message as a prosecutor im saying, wait a minute. Dad is sitting next to him and he happens to be the now president and then Vice President of the United States . Shouldnt we find out where hunter was when he sent said text message . Im not a prosecutor but a finance guy but that sounds like common sense to me. With a previous email that was referenced, 10 held by h for the big guy, now you have those two things correlating with each other, as a normal process or procedure we would go through, you would want to figure out, is that information truthful in that whatsapp message. I agree with you which is why i think it is the view of members on this committee, and a lot of americans at this point that there are elements at the department of justice who did not want this information out, who do not want to go down the line of actually going through the evidence gathering process to perceive the depths to which this International Pay for play scheme was happening around joe biden going through hunter biden , and all the money the biden family was incurring. Thats a question for you. That is a statement for me. Through your investigation come how much money did you uncover was coming from ukraine, romania, and china . If you hold on one second. Let me reference. 17. 3 million approximately. 17. 3 million approximately three or investigation and you and mr. Shapely other guys who investigate criminal tax evasion on an international scale. Is that correct . That is correct. Question for the chairman. Mr. Chairman, through the investigation of the Oversight Committee, how much money have we seen come from ukraine, romania, and china . Over 10 million. So we have two separate investigations. One done by the Investigative Branch of the irs that is charged with doing these types of investigations. These are the people you want doing them. And an independent investigation by the Oversight Committee and we are coming up with the same amount of money, give or take a couple million going to the same person in hunter biden, and his investigation is slow walked and we are supposed to sit here and think that joe biden knows nothing . I think for the record, mr. Chairman, the Relevant Committee needs to have questions for lesley wolf, the ausa of dover, for david weiss, the attorney general of delaware, for lisa monaco, the Deputy Attorney general and merrick garland, the attorney general of the United States. Because of this action is allowed to occur and investigations are slow walked with this level of detail, this aint donald trump. These are facts. I yield back. Thank you. Great job and i will add we just got bank records for ukraine so we will go through that. At the request of the witnesses, we are going to recess for 10 minutes and we will promptly reconvene. Committee and recess. Committee in recess