Fight. And now we turn our focus to a first time novelist, former fbi director james comey had previously written two nonfiction books about his career and the state of the us Justice System. But hes turned his writing focus now to legal thrillers. Book tvs peter flynn recently sat down with james comey to talk about his novel Central Park West. So james comey, why a novel and why now . Why now . First, because i was nudged over time by a former editor of a nonfiction work to try it and i resisted and resisted. But the farther i got from government service, the easier it became to think about crime and terrorism and espionage and so i decided to give it a shot and found it addictive. And harder than nonfiction. But a lot more fun. Where did the storylines come from . My amazing spouse, my wife has great story vision and she throws stuff at the wall, as she says over coffee in the morning and she pitched this particular story and it sounded great to me. And then we fleshed it out and i set out to write it. So how much of this can we take . Is based on your experience at the Southern District and as fbi director . A lot is based on the Southern District. Its not primarily based on fbi. My time at fbi, although its informed by my knowledge of how the fbi works in investigation is, but its mostly inspired by my time as a mob prosecutor in new york, but also brought to the current day by the fact that when i was writing this, my daughter was the chief of the violent and organized crime unit in the Southern District of new york and trying a very prominent case in the same courtroom that i tried mobsters. And so this strange crossover in my life happened. And it made it nostalgic but also current to talk about the what goes on there. So james comey, when we see the character in the book, Central Park West, nora carlton, are we looking at your daughter . Youre looking at really a combination of all four of my smart, strong, tall daughters. But it were inspired primarily by my oldest, who was and still is a federal prosecutor in manhattan. And so its a labor of love, really, to write fiction, picturing my girls and trying to hear their voices when i write. Nora so her name is nora carlton, her partners are expartners, name is nick was just a throwback to the thin man series. It was not. And its funny, totally accidental, but its been pointed out to me and i say, well, maybe on some subconscious level, but not intentionally. Nora and nick. So thats one storyline. Another storyline is about the murder of a former new york governor who was metoo in the metoo movement. Any thing we should take from that . From history . No, its all fiction, but it tried to be inspired by actual events, but not about a particular person. I was explaining to someone that not every taylor swift song is about her former boyfriend, so not every particular figure is reflected in history. A lot of salty language. Theres a lot of salty language in Law Enforcement. Yeah, its part of the the culture of Law Enforcement. And obviously this is about the mob, too. Theres a fair amount of cursing and cosa nostra. So when we get into the courtroom scenes, a lot drawn on your experience there. Yes. In fact, some of it is drawn from actual trial transcripts of cases that i did. I had a witness who when he was one of the worlds great art thieves, when he walked into the courtroom to testify against mobsters, one of the mouth, youre dead. And i didnt see the mobster mouth it, but i saw my witness change. And so i went back and got the transcript of what happened after that to try and get it exactly right. I had another i had a defendant who was murdered in the middle of trial and found with a canary stuffed in his mouth in the trunk of a car. And so ive tried to draw on to make this as real as possible, though its fiction by drawing on those sorts of things. Given your experience in Law Enforcement, would anything surprise you today . Well, a lot of the environment around the fbi in particular surprises me. But the court system in the way it operates, the rule of law, is the same as it was 30 years ago when my oldest daughter was four years old. As it is today when shes in her thirties and the chief of a unit in the office. I worked in. Whos going to buy this book . I dont know. I hope a lot of people, because i want to do this for a job. I mean, its fine to work at a law firm or some other place, but id rather do this, which surprised me. And so i hope people will write it, read it and find it very real, taking you inside these courtrooms, in these Conference Rooms without being tetchy in a fun way. And then it makes people want to read the next one, which ive already written. And isnt finalized, but its out for loving feedback from my family members. So they see the first draft. Oh yeah, this is called me, sees the first. It starts with patrice. She sees it as im writing it and is involved in that process. Looking at a google doc on a regular basis, suggesting edits, giving me comments. I like to do it on google docs and then i can go through the stages of denial by saying shes wrong, then stare at it and say she might be right. And then i read it a third time. Shes right. I dont have to go through that pain in front of her. And then once its ready, it goes out to the five kids and then it goes out to a circle of friends who know this world and who would delight in telling me i got something wrong. And i want that kind of feedback. Now, james comey, those of us who have been in washington have heard for years about rival worries among federal agencies and those kind of play a role in this book. Yeah, theyre a feature of all federal Law Enforcement, especially in new york, where you have the fbi and the nypd. Right. Godzilla and king kong, and you have the Manhattan Das Office almost next door to the u. S. Attorneys office, talented people competing over the work. And i would try and describe it to those who didnt know new york. I said its like its like were mortal sworn enemies unless were living together and having a baby because we did a lot of Task Force Work together. But we also compete fairly aggressively for the work. And its at times dysfunctional, but its also a source of creativity and energy. Thats thats really remarkable when youre in the middle of it, given your experience as prosecutor, as an fbi director, would you make a good defense attorney today . I dont know. I was a defense attorney briefly. I was i found it difficult work. Thank god good people do it because the system doesnt work. But i, i struggled with it a bit, so im not sure id probably be better today because ive seen more of the flaws in the criminal Justice System just through sheer repetition. But its hard work. I never had the terrifying experience of representing someone that i knew to be innocent. Instead, i was providing legal advice to people to try and get them the best result. Its still very hard, kyra. And tony burke, who are they in the book . Well, she is the estranged spouse of the former governor who is, as you said, was disgraced and is out of Office Living in a penthouse along Central Park West. And im not giving anything away to say in the very first pages of the book hes murdered and suspicion falls on her, a case that my protagonist, nora carlton, is not paying attention to because thats a local murder case that the d. A. Is handling. Shes got a mob case going where shes finally going to put away a really elusive mobster. But the story is about those two cases slamming together and taking nora and her investigator, writer partner benny doogan, on quite a journey. Now, nora carlton, assistant u. S. Attorney, early on in the book as well, the u. S. Attorney is described as basically an idiot. Is is that a typical attitude toward your higher level bosses in federal Law Enforcement . There are a lot of idiots in all leadership roles, but in the main, i worked for really good people, but i was trying to capture maybe some of the weaknesses that i had seen in u. S. Attorneys. Obviously, when i was your attorney, i had no weaknesses whatsoever. But its all people are complex and i try to capture that with him because as you read on, youll see complexity with him as well. What about politicians . Do they figure in Central Park West . Sure. There are some evil people in Central Park West who have chosen Public Service through political office. And i try to paint a picture of them. Im a little bit of a cynic about politicians. I dont mean to badmouth them on cspan, but i tried to use them as sort of character foils here. A little bit. Why was it important to you in this book to describe what the fbi or the Southern District building look like, what the streets were like, what the courtrooms look like . Because i want to take the reader into them and have the reader feel what its really like in those places, what it feels like to walk up those steps, what the the intimidating architecture does to a room in which youre trying to achieve justice and and i could close my eyes and feel and see those places. And so i wanted the reader to do it as well. And of course, even though i know these places so well, i went and made sure i wasnt missing anything. I counted steps. I wanted to make sure i had it right. One of the feedback from my editor at the publisher was, you have a little too much. This is an architectural digest. And so he whacked a number of my use a mob term. He whacked a number of my descriptions of buildings. I hope its enough to bring readers in without overwhelming them. James comey the media also plays a role, and one of the things that the media does is they happen to know about an arrest of somebody and they show up and theyre waiting. How how does that District Attorney use the media every their advantage . Well, everyone in Law Enforcement, in general should use the media because youre in the Public Service. Public interest business and the way you communicate what youre doing and why it matters to the public is through the media. But theres a an especially close in my experience, relationship between Law Enforcement and the media in new york. I think its a function of a number of things, including that theres enormous Law Enforcement organizations with lots of people that media members might be able to speak to and the media is enormous and concentrated in new york. And so there are longstanding source relationships that used to frustrate me when i was u. S. Attorney and when i was the director of the fbi, because stuff would get out in new york in a way it wouldnt elsewhere. And oftentimes when youre trying to do an arrest and not have a not have a circus, word still gets out. I remember when we indicted Martha Stewart, when i was u. S. Attorney, i was very keen not to have any pictures of Martha Stewart in custody with handcuffs on because the case was important. It had to be brought, but she wasnt the criminal of the century. And i worry that that would send a confusing message. And it took a lot of work to make sure that no camera person was given a tip as to where to be, to see Martha Stewart in handcuffs. And you have never seen that photo. So thats a rare success in trying to push apart that symbiotic relationship in new york between media and Law Enforcement. Who has the advent hinge in a courtroom . Is it the prosecutors or the defense attorney, or what are the advantages on each side, the prosecutors starts with an advantage because she represents the sovereign. Shes able to stand up and say, im nora carlton for the United States. And so jurors sitting there see the United States of america, a country they love, and theyre part of embodied in this person. Thats a trip. Mendez advantage. But we built our system to counterbalance that with the burden of proof. The prosecution even has to get to beyond a reasonable doubt, all 12 unanimously, which is a very high burden. Its one of the things i try and show in the book. Thats why truth and justice can be different. You may know something in your heart of hearts, but if you cant prove it to 12 unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt, you will not have justice in that sense. And so theres a balance. And i guess it depends upon the particular courtroom and the particular people. Often the quality of justice varies in direct proportion to the quality of your lawyer. If youre a defendant. But on balance, weve done a good job of trying to counteract the innate advantage that the sovereign has in courtrooms. Does a defendant have enough advantages, in your view . Yes. Not enough to be perfect, but our system is flawed because we humans are flawed, innocent people get convicted in our criminal Justice System at all levels. And thats a tragedy. Thats why we should never fall in love with our system. But i think its the best that there is. And we have shrouded the defendant in presumptions and protections that are designed to let the guilty go free so that we dont pay the cost of the innocent suffering. And i think we do a reasonably good job of that. Again, a race is an important factor in courtrooms. Power, privilege of all kinds doesnt stop at courtroom doors, but in the main, we have a very fair criminal Justice System. Director comey, i dont know if you did this on purpose, but in Central Park West, i took away from that that, hey, the mob, the mafia, is still active, even though we dont hear about it like we used to. Yes, thats true. Theyre less prominent in two respects. Theyre less powerful than they were, say, 20, 25 years ago when they lost their major source of money and power, which was their control over labor unions. And so theyre out there and they are actually losing power in gambling as gambling becomes more more regulated and run by the state. But they have power in Drug Trafficking and extortion in all kinds of ways. But theyve gotten smarter and realized that if you stand in front of your social club in a 5,000 armani suit, the fbi is going to put your picture at the top of a Bulletin Board and thats going to be a real problem for you. And so nobody wants to be named the boss because that brings attention. And so its almost a call back to the original founders of the families. Right. The founder of the gambino crime family, carlo gambino, died a free man for a few reasons. He lived a very low key lifestyle and he only talked about family business, outdoors. And when whispering to two people, thats a hard case to make. And so the mob got away from that. And i think a lot of ways theyve returned to that. Lets believe below the radar, its not about ego. James comey by the end of Central Park West, did you like Matthew Parker . Yeah, personally, yeah. Matty parker is a defense lawyer in the case whos based on one of my closest friends, david kelly, who followed me as the us attorney in new york. And i tried to capture daves loving, curmudgeonly ness and some of his mannerisms. Hes trying to do the right thing. Hes a very talented lawyer in a difficult situation and i have a running inner monologue that tries to capture my friend dave. And so, yes, i began loving matty parker because i love dave and his wife tells me, you nailed it. You absolutely got it. What about your wife, patrice . Is there a character that reflects her at all . No. But the themes that are in this book are hers, and i tried to really highlight the importance of family we show in this book an arrangement thats fairly common between couples that arent married when they have a child that i learned about from patrice, whos trained as a marriage and family therapist, they nest. And so the young daughter stays with the mom and the couple alternates on weeks staying at the moms house. They nest and she suggested putting that in. I thought, what a cool idea to show the family can be nontraditional, but also really good for kids. Theres a lot of that in there. So people who know my wife will feel her presence in there, but theres not a character that shes allowed me to based on her. Are you in have you been a a thriller reader over the years . No. I tried, but i found it. I can remember reading taras book presumed innocent in 87, just as i was about to become an assistant u. S. Attorney. And i was lit on fire by the book. I thought, this is so cool. This is what i want to be. What i want to do. And then when it became my life, i really struggled to watch tv about crime or terrorism or espionage or read about it. And the reason is obvious, right . It was filling my days, so im not going to go home and sit in a lawn chair on vacation and read about the things that are dominating my life. And so thats what i meant by it. Wasnt until i got fired and then time went by. I did nonfiction after i was fired, and then it became easier to think about the work the farther i got from it and easier to write about it. And i think that makes sense. I didnt see it at the time, but thats i was a nonfiction and person. Cspan kind of person, loyal viewer, and then ive started to drift into a place where i realized that i can tell pretty cool stories and show People Places in the fiction world in ways that im freer in that format than doing it in the nonfiction way. So did the sequel get written right, right away, right after this one was finished . Yes. I mean, its my wife has such great story vision that shes already trying to talk to me about book three. And i keep telling her, know, keep that in your head. Im trying to talk about one, trying to publish two, and then well get to three. So, yes, immediately. Patricias job, my job is to write her job is to start thinking about so what might the next story be . Do you have another job besides being an author these days . Well, being a grandfather is the most important job i do. Drawing chalk and weekday afternoons that i wouldnt have been doing if i was in the government. But know this is that i hope this works because this is what id like to do for a living. What time do you write . How do you write . Do you write . You keep things online or do you have a computer disconnected to the internet . I write on a laptop, so im i often you start in a word, but i quickly make it a google doc so that patrice can feed suggestions and comments as im working and so typically the rhythm is shes reading what i wrote the night before the afternoon, the night before, in the morning. And then i go probably late morning after im doing chores and stuff and sit someplace by myself. And the cool thing about fiction is i dont need any sources around me. I dont need memos and transcripts. I need my head, my fingers and the laptop. So i like to sit outside if i can. And i start by going through comments that shes made about what i did yesterday and then i adjust those comments, adopt them, sometimes resist them, but then talk about them and then push on and start writing the next part of this. And then that process just repeats until i have a good draft of the whole book. Is there a james comey figure in this book . No. Originally, i thought there should be that that the protagonist would kind of be a young me and it was so great to switch to that person being inspired by my daughter because i dont know about other authors, but its more fun not to write about me. Its more fun to write through her eyes and see the world that i know through her eyes much easier and more and more enjoyable for me. James comey could you have come up with the plot lines in this book without your wife in your imagination . Could you have done this . I think i suppose so. It would not be nearly as good. I mean, she has an ability because shes read so much fiction and she has so many likes and dislikes about the way in which authors show a story and hide a thing or show a thing that i could come up with a story, but i dont think it would be shown in the same way. Shes convinced me that the way it works best for her as a reader is the author decides what to show, has the whole story behind a curtain and shows pieces of it so that when you get to the end and you see the reveal, you say to yourself, are, that was fair. I missed it. But that was fair. They showed me the things i if i noticed them, i would have picked it up instead of something. A day of sex marking a landing from the sky or some false trail. Thats a manipulation. And so i dont think i could done anything near that well, without my partner is. Nora carleton going to be the sequel . Protagonist yes. At the end of the book, you see where noras going next. And before i became fbi director, i was three years the general counsel of the Worlds Largest hedge fund in the new york metropolitan area. And so i think theres a whale of a story to be told. A crime story fictional in that world, because its a really fascinating world. And also to show readers a little bit about what its like in a fictionalized sense. So noras going to go there and i dont want to say more about it because its pretty exciting. And then im not going to say a word about the third book because my publisher said, we dont want people to know what happens to the characters after the second book. Final question are crimes committed 100 of the time for love and money . Not 100 of the time. A lot of the time it is addiction that drives crime. A lot, especially violent crime. Is street crime a lot of times its about ego. I, i need to be seen. I need to be the best. I need to be recognize ized. And so i will, even though i have tons of money of corporate executive, i need the prominence that comes from being the number one on a particular list. So i have to manipulate my stock or things like that. So id say love, money, ego and substance abuse. This is a really depressing way to end it. James comey, author of Central Park West, a crime novel. We appreci my name is matthew meehan. Im the associate dean here of the andel graduate school of government. And im also helping out here with the lnp, kirby Junior Center for constitutional studies and citizenship, a