Transcripts For CSPAN3 Daniel 20240704

I am going to skip right to what Dorothy Roberts said, because Dorothy Roberts was one of our speakers when she came here to present book torn apart. This is what dorothy once again, Daniel Hatcher powerful exposes how Government Systems operate and extractive part of the industry motivated by profit rather than justice, is our opening book is essential for understanding causal system mechanics and for working to hope that were going to get into lot of things with this book. And i wait to get into it. Daniel hatcher is professor of law at the university baltimore, where he teaches Civil Affairs and cleric in which students represent low income clients. You guys what im talking about not just learning, but acting. All right. He is the author of in addition to the nice book, the profits excuse me, the poverty industry, the exploitation of americas most vulnerable. So citizens that was former maryland legal aid and Childrens Defense Fund turned into attorney and has been a scholar. Advocate teacher on poverty and justice. Were so glad to have daniel here. Were also glad to have another member of the red hands. Fan Shanta Trivedi is here also from you because of baltimore thing. All right, shanta is assistant professor and faculty director of the sierra leone matter involved center for families, children and the courts at the University Law school of law. Previously he represented parents in brooklyn who are embroiled in the Child Welfare system. And as a result of that experience, writes about state sanctioned family separation, focusing on issues related to race, poverty and gender. This is important. We need to listen to. And so were going to have some of our four kids. So i need you to make some real, real radical returns on all this as we discuss in Justice Incorporated, how americas Justice System, children and poor make some noise for daniel l. Thank you so much for the introduction. Thank you. To read almas and again thank you for all that you do for increasing awareness. Ready to change starts with awareness. I have to say thank you to my brilliantly beautiful and beautifully brilliant wife banafsheh whos here. Im honored that multiple law students from the university of baltimore are here. Our future advocates for justice and multiple colleagues. And im grateful all around. Im thrilled to be here presenting with Shanta Trivedi, who heard the introduction from from ken and i add to this that shanta, as both a she has an infinite kindness, right . While similar heinously this just fierce, brilliant advocacy right. And she is already and her teaching and her scholarship and her advocacy causing immense change. And shes going to continue to do so. Its an honor to to speak with you im going to turn it over, shout before get into the voting minutes to process all of that. Well, i am thrilled be here. Im so grateful for the invitation and because i think its so important that the world hears more about your work and hopefully reads the entire book and as you know and we thank you for spare me from having to do my bio, you know, i do a lot of the work that you reference in the book and even i was stunned by some of your research and you reveal some really astonishing facts about the ways that the court system and Court Officials are able to profit off of the poor and before we get into the specifics of that, id to talk to you about why you decided to write this book. Well, i wish i didnt have to write the book because it candidly took a lot out of me you know both and and the research each of banafsheh solomon the research describe described i often will fall down into the matrix of the research and one issue will lead to another and then to another. It also takes a lot out of you and when youre reading the stories, understanding the numbers. Right. Because theres a risk that that when we read report after report, number after number of data, point after data point that you can almost become numb to it. Right. And can forget that each number is a child. So we have to remember that, you know, each number comes with a story. And in the book, know, i expose just a few of those stories and i try to uncover how all these revenue mechanisms are causing harm and are really turning our Justice Institutions on their from their intended goal of maximizing equal and impartial justice to maximize revenue. And i so, i feel driven to write the book mostly from my so ive been an advocate for children and the poor in a variety of ways for over 25 years now. And my first work as a legal aid lawyers representing children in the highly dysfunctional Baltimore Foster care system. And that was overwhelming to me. I represented hundreds of youth within just a year. I still see their faces. You know, i still wonder how theyre doing. I worry. And i still think could have done more, should have should have more. So experiencing through and through my adult and all the difficulties poverty that theyve been encountering in their perseverance. Right know like when when you have somebody whos struggling with poverty, its just barrier after barrier after barrier. Not just the difficulty of being low income, but all the systemic barriers that are put in front of you. So when somebody is struggling with that, being a youth or an adult and theyre able to break through even even partially, thats just heroic and i often think i know that if i were in their shoes, i dont think i would be able to make it out. So dance fire me and i feel driven through their stories and then realizing the systemic harm that theyre confronted with, feel driven to try to uncover that and expose it so that hopefully we can begin to write some of those wrongs. Yeah. And i mean, youve uncovered many, many wrongs and im wondering, you first learned that courts were able to make money off of cases in the way that you expose your book . Well, a variety of ways. One of the most stark examples i that i initially uncovered in my last book and actually scholarship before that. And i can describe a former client. So in addition to representing youth who are in the foster care system, i represented a former foster youth and im going to call him john. Even that is not as his real name. But so john was pulled into the system at age 12 when his mother died, he was shuffled from placement to placement, probably a 20 or more within that time to different foster homes, group homes, never getting the services that he needed. He when i encountered and john and became his his attorney, he told me about how he always to be an auto mechanic you know he loved cars and the Foster Agency wouldnt even help him when he was in the helped to gain access to even the cost or the process gaining his own drivers license. Right and then i find out with with john that that while hes in the system because his mother died, hes eligible for Survivor Benefits. Right. His mother work paid into the system. But the Foster Care Agency, the very agency that exists for the sole reason of serving and protecting his as best interests, sought those benefits out, applied the benefits, never told john, never told that theyre applying. Never told him that theyre to become the representative in control of those funds and then took literally every penny. Although his benefits from him. Right. And if you think like the stats of of of former foster youth are just lined up against them, you know, like again, you know, for those who are able do somewhat well, you know, after leaving the system im im amazed most right you know and so he had this potential to have this monetary resource and it wasnt just the money. Right. They took this connection from him. Right. You know, he had this money that was left to him from his Deceased Parent that he could have used. But the money in that connection to his parent to then help himself off. Right. And i just dont know how you put a number on that. So and i uncover a contract right that the state maryland the foster courageous they actually had a contract with a company by the name of maximus and i found one of the contract documents through a Public Information act request refers to foster youth as a Revenue Generating mechanism. Right. So this really the first example that i encountered of children being monetized, you know, by systems that are supposed to serve their wealth, what their welfare. And this book i uncover, what i think even more concerning that are very of justice, right including our courts that are supposed to be monitored, hours of mission that are supposed to review Agency Actions have become part of the poverty industry. You know, you talk about your client, john, as a foster you, then im going to take interview your privilege because this is my area of interest. And you know, i spent a lot of time thinking about harm of removing kids from their parents and what happens to them in foster care and the general harms by the Child Welfare or family policing system, as i call it. And ive watched removed from their parents and caught and will never ever have those images out of my brain and to think that people courts are making a profit off of that kind of pain and is really a lot to process and. Im wondering if you could splain how that is or how that could be . Well, a variety of ways, unfortunately. And i agree its striking. And one of the more striking examples that i had that i uncovered as i was and to a lot of the funding streams and there are many when you when you deal with children pulled into either the Child Welfare system or the juvenile Justice Systems programs for adults that are to serve the adults often aid funds that i think that ive uncovered have become general revenue right for the county coffers or for the state coffers. Again, the last book, it was the ways in which Human Service agencies with private companies to really turn who are supposed to be their beneficiaries and the revenue tools. So what you describe, you know, thats the example i initially uncovered out of ohio and then multiple states are using the same contractual scheme Juvenile Court, youre actually entering contracts to become part of the the executive branch to become the local Foster Care Agency in ohio. So and if you just pause and think about that for a second, you know, we had a revolution for some years ago escape the idea of tyranny, you know, of of centralized power. Right. That was in the hands of one entity, in that case, the english crown and the founders as flawed humans as they were, created a structure government built upon that separation of powers and most crucial within that the independence of our judiciary. So here you have an ohio. I found the Juvenile Courts are actually becoming contracted become part of that executive branch to take on the local Foster Care Agency function and then what they do in order to generate the funds, you know, they first put on their court at adjudicate children delinquent and then they put on the contract for foster care placing agency hat the children are then removed or labeled as a foster care candidate and constantly process. They put their court hat back on again review their own actions right and and if they review themselves favorably they can generate more revenue. Theyre pulling down whats called federal foster care for e revenue, which a very large Funding Source supposed to go to foster agencies to provide services to children. But the courts found a way to tap into that, literally even have a quote from one of the Juvenile Court judges. Literally, the more children removed from their homes, the more revenue the can make. And you dig further and you start to understand how the math works on mechanics work. Its not just that theyre generating revenue from. The services right from the removal from the Court Operations and then the the foster care placing agency operations, they took over the generating and administrative costs. And this sounds kind of dull at first, but what that means is theyre literally using Vulnerable Children pulled into the system to fund overhead. Right. And to fund the overhead, the entire court structure, from paying salaries to fringe benefits. Right. To travel or to even depreciation on courthouse buildings. I even found a training where theyre actually able to claim the administrative cost, the process of claiming administrative. Right. And we understand that youre smarter than me. Right . It starts to sound like a pyramid scheme. And in terms of the revenue, i found a slide and a training where the the the the training for the and how to maximize revenue. They literally to youth as if they were members of the jetson mds or the flintstones. Right and it sounds like theyre bringing comical first look at trying to make a joke about this process of claiming revenue from children and the name that they use for one of the children was betty ruble. They misspelled it. And that rubble ruble and through that slide whats explain to the court staff is that the more torture dren that are removed from their homes compared to nonpoor children. So this whats called a penetration rate as what they use by the revenue maximization and consultants in many of the courts work with and what the penetration rate is, literally the percentage of poor kids who are removed from their homes compared to nonpoor kids. And if that percentage goes if you have a greater percentage of poor kids, they can claim more revenue. So its just to say its strikingly concerning is an understatement. Right. You know, like the incentives are stark. Its its unconstitutional. But that i argue in the book and i think its an argument. Right. You know, its a its be a more clear violation of separation of powers and, whats supposed to be judicial impartiality, which is required by due and our constitution, and an application of ethics committed in two that a little more you say that the more children that are involved, the more the courts make. Why . Well, because theres this funding stream that again, that the courts are pursuing. And its not just prosecutors have similar contract. I talk about that more as Probation Department title four e is what is called of the Social Security act. Its a large federal funding stream. Right. And the way its set up and where the courts are maximizing is that funding ends up only available f the children come from poor families that theyre from families who used to be eligible for the old welfare law called afdc. Right. So they have to be from from poor families. And that then becomes the penetration rate, right so they they literally had seen these contract documents and trainings where the revenue maximization contractors will advise this goal of your penetration rate. Right. And that when youre reading in a person like is advocates of sounds like you know, like sort of an economic principle or something. Its literally increasing the percentage of poor kids compared to nonpoor kids that are removed from their homes. That allows the increased generation revenue. So 40 funds are tied to a program that not exist anymore and hasnt existed for quite some time. And through that were allowed to make more money because of this connection between a law program that doesnt exist and, a funding structure thats in place through the Social Security act. Right. You know, and its a lot of money thats coming in, obviously. Ive seen examples, you know, in ohio in their own annual report and you start to dig into some of these annual reports. Right. You and it feels more like youre youre often reading almost a a presentation to potential investor, right. More so than a report of an institution of justice. Right. An annual report and budget documents millions that are being drawn down in annually through through for this process. And this is just one, right. You know, through the care funds, you can have the same court who could generate revenue from from a child adjudicated delinquent and removed from his home. Then that same court in ohio and in in other states could under an additional you know another one of these interagency contracts to generate more revenue by pursuing whats called Child Support. Although its not against the mother from from whom the child was removed. So the court will then pursue the mother for Child Support that doesnt actually go the child. Right. It isnt benefiting the its used to repay the of foster that the court just ordered right and then theyre any more even more revenue through process pulling down whats called title four d revenue and some of these contracts that seen theyre making even money through that process. Yeah i want to go back to child for sure. And you know, you mentioned ohio okay and, you know, your book talks about texas and louisiana. All right. I expect some of that my husband has lived in texas and louisiana swearing at me. But but, you know, in reading your book i was shocked to learn that some of these practices are happening here. Right. Right. Well, and these practices are happening. You know, i do uncover, you know, a lot of examples across the country and sometimes more of the the striking examples can tend to happen in some what are considered more traditionally conservative areas. And you can see some irony, some sometimes in the practices, right, where you have the current leadership that might be adamantly against any aid for low income individuals. They are actually seeking out of maximizing that federal but then not actually using it the way theyre supposed to for the poor instead of actually using it as a general revenue source. Right. To go into the general coffers. Maryland several examples as. Well, in which these are happening, you know, as i described earlier, you know, maryland has had a contract with a company and engaged in practice on their own as well to pursue and take survivor from children and their care from some foster youth and disability benefits. Theyll even take veterans assistance benefit if a child had a parent who died in the military and some states ive seen know similar to that practice on nebraska had a regulation with that even take burial plots from children if they happen to have them look for literally anything thats a potential source of revenue so in maryland is also engaged in these Child Support contracts as well statewide the courts contract again with the executive Branch Agency and you have the executive branch Child Support agency is one of the parties. Right. And these proceedings. Right are literally funding the courts that they appear before. You know, if you just think that, its like imagine when one party is paying for all the judicial officers that theyre hearing. And in these child courts. Right. Thats not supposed to be constitutional, right when you have control over someones finances. Right. Thats the control, their will. And the circumstances. And then states attorneys as well have these of these contracts in maryland where theyre pulling in revenue, the Child Support proceedings. Yeah, i dont want to talk about this law more. You know, i teach Child Support. We sometimes do Child Support cases and, you know, its complicated, right . Child support meant to ensure that parents are sharing the financial burden of caring for our child. Right. Kids are expensive. And, you know, lot of the times the parents are not living together. Parent got stuck with all the costs. So we want to make sure that its fair. All right. That makes sense. Kids to eat. But if a parent fails to pay the Child Support that theyre order the state, go after them again. We want to get that money so that the kids can get what they. But is that actually really what Child Support enforcement looks like . Because sounds like its not because if that were true, the money would not be going anywhere near the courts it would be going to these kids. Isnt that the point . Right. Its a its a great question. And theres really this an oversimplification. Theres really two systems of Child Support that most people dont realize. Theres a system for the poor largely. And then theres a system for the nonpoor and for the nonpoor, like you may have, you know, judges that hear your case through a divorce proceeding, including Child Support and an alimony, you know, maybe even dividing vacation properties, you know you name it, it can take days, know, like through these proceedings before the courts. The courts for the poor are barely even courts and some states and some in some states are literally not. And theyre overseen not by judges, but by judicial masters, magistrates are called in some states. Some states are friends. The court right, various terms. And in some states ive seen like sometimes these nonjudicial officials dont even have to be. Ive seen in some states dont need a College Degree and in alaska you can become its equivalent of a judicial masters ruling on cases that involve children. A few simply you dont even need a high school diploma. You simply need to be of age and a resident, right . So theres concern with the structure to start, but so that the four d structure of Child Support, most people dont realize that much of the four d Child Support system is actually not even money thats owed to the children. Parents are pulled into the system when a low income temporarily needs public assistance right and or the child is removed into foster care. Like the example we talked before and then Child Support as what is called, will be pursued against the low income parent to pay those back and. Its just an immensely harmful system because when the custodial parent is, poor, the noncustodial parent is often poor as well. Theres a vastly disproportionate impact upon income and race of the families pulled into the this theres 40 Child Support system are poor in maryland statewide i believe number is about 70 of those pulled into the the 40 system and maryland are black families right and then one of the enforcement tools thats frequently used theres multiple of them is the license suspension. Here you have somebody whos desperately trying to stay above water and to with all the other rec and revenue mechanisms that i discussed in the book, including court fines and fees and then theyre license suspended. So do you get to your job . What if you need your license as part of the job right and that impact know one of our our clinic clinics at the university of baltimore the data and Design Clinic did some research and found that although the black population statewide is about 30 seven 80 of the license suspensions right are inflicted upon black families. So it was a vastly disproportionate impact. And then like when you get into a situation where you have a low income parent whos struggling, they say its the mother whos desperately trying to get her child back after removal into the foster care system. Now shes layered with thousands of dollars of debt that quickly accrue. Her license suspended, if shes lucky enough to get above ground and right. Theyre immediately to start garnishing her wages. A 65 . Right. So you know, the math doesnt work, you know, like how do you make ends meet . So thats what it does for many individuals. And what i would do via in their shoes, i would find a way to get money to my child directly. Right. Id quit the right work under the table and find a way to get money to my child. Right. And thats what many parents do. But then it creates this growing growing debt obligation i owe to the state in the power of the state collections behind that. So so often they can never break out. Yeah and i know in a lot of those instances also people are doing this sort of informal support, but theyre so scared of the enforcement and that they stop because they dont want to get caught, they dont want to get held in contempt. And not only are they, you know, their income is limited in this way, but now the relationship has been because they actually were supporting her all along and having a relationship, once the enforcement proceedings get started its not its too hard to maintain the relationship thats a Crucial Point and harmful. Right. You know, in terms of the devastation to families, again, with the disproportionate impact based on race both currently and historically. Right. You know, the 40 program was was encouraged largely by a senator from louisiana who was a segregationist. Right. The initial program was solely aimed at cost recovery, at punishing the poor. It grew from what were called the , the jackson early colonies, and grew from the poor laws in england so all about punishing the poor and and then the fine from the risk of poor children and these contracts you see. So its not just that the system can be harmful. You know often as harm is monetized. So then through these contracts covering including maryland in multiple states, pennsylvania wide, the family courts somewhat like what courts have done. The family courts in pennsylvania have contracted to become the local Child Support agencies. Right. And again, their goal in doing is that they can pull down the federal 40 revenue where the federal funding is supposed to be provided for Child Support agencies to help serve children. But instead, the courts are monetizing that and theyre pulling in millions through this process. And its not this just again, know through the administrative costs and the contractual revenue that they can in in these contracts are uncovered in pennsylvania and other states. Theyre incentivized at twice the rate towards the pursuit of the government support. So in those families are the most low income who have been needing public assistance. Children have been pulled into foster care. Theres even contingency fees, right, that the courts get get 15 based upon how much money they pay. They pursue that calling Child Support or medical support pay back the cost of medicaid against the poor families in a contingency fee. Write in any kind of incentive like that. Thats the opposite of impartiality. So again, its another example of, just a clear abdication of the constitutional principles of powers. Right. And of the due process, impartiality. Yeah. All so weve talked about the courts, which im still, you know, so working through some of this, but its not just the courts. Right. Its everyone from prosecutors to Probation Departments who are profiting this way. Lets start with how. One child can benefit police officers, financial. Sure. A lot of ways a child, his family you know and in the book i talk about a i write about a child whos both simultaneously real and hypothetical. I call him sean the s what that with a dollar sign and real to the extent of you know of of former youth that ive represented and the parents that ive represented and real based upon the statistics. Right. And the real data and you know, hes hard to write about, you know, you know, because i know sean and you know, and i and i and i know his parents. So, you know, like i know the story. And he could be pulled into the system again. So he could be first process by the courts to generate revenue through removal. And then of course my generate more revenue by pursuing his mom write for childs to repay the cost of foster care that the court just ordered the Prosecutors Office may have a similar contract right to prosecute the cases theyre pulling in both title revenue and i think contracts with again the prosecutors are incentivized by an equation that literally the more children the more poor children that are removed from their homes the more revenue that the Prosecutors Officers can generate, the Prosecutors Officers can generate further revenue for the Child Support contracts again through the prosecutorial contracts. Right. Again, incentivize the more cases, process right, the more harm, the more revenue. And then policing agencies come into play and as well on the policing agencies can have both contracts that generate revenue from title 40, from the foster care revenue and from Child Support to carry out arrests. Ive seen contracts where Sheriffs Officers will literally share revenue with the with the amount of money they they make from carrying out arrest warrants and Child Support proceedings. And then they become sort of the the foot for these Enforcement Mechanisms, right. For the for the factory operations in which theyre pursuing endless and fees on top of fines, fees. So the courts will frequently order. Fine, fine. If i find that theres a fine from a misdemeanor case, sometimes even just a minor traffic situation that will quickly to thousands of dollars. Right. When theres fees lapse on top of fees, on top of fees. Right. And then interest is charged. Right. There might be a private company that gets involved in collection as well, adds on more fees. On top of that. But in several states, the Sheriffs Office take part in these collections and then not just in the fines and theyll pursue utility cut offs, evictions, foreclosures, repossessing cars, gaining again, a contingency fee. In some jurisdictions, they call it a poundage rate. So in new york, i write about an where there are whats called city marshals in new york and even though theyre called city marshals, theyre not of the city. They and they dont earn any salary. Right. Theyre like mercenaries like bounty hunters, hired guns make all their money, all of it by the pursuit of the poor and in the cities own documents. Right they list the average revenue that one of these city marshals is pulling it after costs 420,000 right you person per city and then that generates revenue for the city. Right. So again, theyre commodifying not just poverty, theyre commodifying the harm of poverty becomes an escape for inescapable. And thats just one of the examples. I mean, theyre even sheriff. So getting revenue through food, right know in alabama and and in some other jurisdictions there have been stories some of the sheriffs, they get certain amount of money for food for the prisoners. And if they feed them, even more cheaply, right. If they really diminish the amount of food and the quality of the food as cheap as i can, theyll the rest. Right. And thats been reduced somewhat alabama but its still happening theyre still taking 25 cut. So becomes almost endless and its becomes overwhelming. You know as you start to dig into these examples. Yeah well now you mentioned, you know, you talked about how hard it was to research and finding more and more sounds depressing and as someone who shares your love of depressing research, you know its helpful sometimes to think about know is there any hope you know, is there anything that you found that might indicate that things might get better. I think there is hope. I think we have a long road ahead. Right. And i think working towards improving the systems, working towards this this goal of equal and partial justice. And yeah, look, you know, the words of equal justice that are carved over our us supreme court. I believe in those words right, you know, i still do. Its hard to sometimes, you know, there are times i that i, i wish i could give in to apathy, you know, like, you know, it would be so nice just to not care right. And because it it takes a lot out of you when youre working both with the directly and the research and understanding you know what, behind the research. But we have to keep striving for that and there is hope. You know, my clients give me hope, their perseverance, law students give me help in terms of their and dedication to the study of law and to justice. And weve had some success. Like in the example i described before, where agencies are taking Survivor Benefits and disability benefits from foster children and their care weve started to have some success in pushing back on that and some of the the strongest voices who have helped to push against that practice have been former foster right. Who have been empowered to add their have their voice into and to stand up including testifying and states and to the harm. And now with based on my research and working with multiple advocates over ten states have started to move in the right direction. To push back on that, i testified in the district of columbia and an ordinance enacted there also in philadelphia. So multiple cities are also moving forward on the right direction. So change is possible, but its a long fight. We have to keep striving for. What do we do . I see lawyers, see law students. Im sure there are other types of advocates in the audience and watching what can we do . Well, i think it starts with with it starts with awareness. So what were at ama is doing by hosting book talks and, other events and other news organizations, you know, increasing awareness is is the first crucial step to any change because we have to understand what the problem is in order to work the right solution because need to fix it and we need to fix it enough in the right way. Right. But then those of us in the Justice System, i think it falls on us first. Right. And all of us, whether judges, prosecutors prosecute are supposed to be ministers of justice. Right. Under the ethical. And thats a thats a crucial role. Right. Of the ethics are taking seriously. Right. Our probation officers are policing officers. If theyre true to their missions. You know, you look up any mission of a very Sheriffs Officers policing agencies to serve and right and to protect the right. Theres some good sounding missions. F theyre true to those missions. So we have to hold ourselves accountable. Right. And what i write about and the solution, even though i think, you know, county, county, state by state, its going to get nuanced, right, to figure out what exact solution our solutions are. But it really comes down to mission and ethics, right . We need to have that, you know, zero focused attention to the mission of equal and impartial justice and then the ethics are being true to that mission right. And i and i argue in the book and again i dont think its an argument. I think its an ethical truism that if you have a judge, a prosecutor or an attorney, you know, were officers of the right whos trying their best to be ethically right to individually to to live up to their ethical obligations right up there operating and a system thats compromised thats ethically compromised argue their ethics are compromised and well, you cant just try to be yourself. Right. You have to improve the system which will and so all have to strive to do that and we dont you know, look, if justice officials dont write own wrongs, we need more litigation to happen across the country. And there had been some excellent cases brought, you know, constitutional claims successfully brought by groups like the civil rights corps, aclu, Southern Poverty Law Center and the like. Unfortunately, well need more. Right. You know, litigation. I think i we need more transparent see an oversight, you know, inspector generals that can happen at the or the like you know that can happen at the state level or even county level. Sometimes of requesting data, certainly at the federal level. And we need our department, justice, Civil Rights Division to take an even more active role. Theyve done some good investigations over the year. They essentially ceased over the prior. Four years, but now has become reenergized again and need that oversight. Make sure that our Justice Systems right are seeking justice, not money. Because if you just if you think about that again, you know, like, look, you for Profit Companies they exist to make a profit, you know, fine you know, but our courts, theyre not supposed to exist to make money, right . Theyre supposed to be driven by that ethical ideal of impartial justice or Human Service agencies. Right. They exist to serve best interests of their beneficiaries, be foster care, children, elderly in nursing homes. Right. Anyone needing their services that they shift from mission to monetizing the harm. You know, immeasurable harm as a result and it doesnt stop. Yeah, well, i hope all of you out there are ready to get to work. I find anger personally a very good motivator. So i thought. It would be useful to on an example that really stuck with about how we are commodifying children and could you share with us what you learned about the juvenile facility being built right here in charles county, maryland . Sure. So, you know, one of the chapters in the book i write about title bodies in the beds, right. So the you have various private actors sometimes Small Companies who are bought by Larger Company, bought by a Larger Company or traded on the stock market. Right. Who are generating by jailing children and one way or another. Sometimes now theyre called better sounding names. You might be a residents of treatment center, sometimes even academy or an art camp. Theyre still detaining children. Right. And, you know what what i found in the research you have, you have towns cities states that look towards these detention facilities and widest variety of of the as a factory. Right. And as a job producer and a revenue producer for the town. You know ive seen report after port stories where you know one one small town in North Carolina where the town manager, you know was frustrated because the local factory was leaving during, you know, 28, the financial crisis that we had before covid. But he expressed some hope right. Things were looking up for the town because theyre building a new juvenile detention facility for girls. And that was going to bring in more jobs. A more money. Right. You know, so as a revenue producer here in maryland. Right. And charles county, there is this economic report where theyre considering the placement and the whole process for a new detention facility. They literally use as part of the report an economic tool and and discussing the revenue production that would from children and the comparison this document was to a factory building automobiles. Right. So calling it you know what the way theyre treating it literally treating children commodities like a factory and and its like a its almost like a, you know, a Factory Assembly line, but more a disassembly line, right. You know, where you have already struggling individuals are deconstructed for every possible penny. So its happening right here. But you know, so we have to be aware. You know, i become angered, angered, upset, frustrated by by the research, by it, by the stories. But we have to bear witness you know, we have to understand whats happening so we can work towards change. Well, thanks to all of you for bearing witness and. Dan, is there anything else that you want to leave us with . So i want to make sure to leave time for questions. I would open it up if anybody has questions, id be happy to fill. What were going to do is. Ill come around to mike and thank you, first of all, because theres so much to talk my mind is being rolled through. I cant i cant wrap head around it. So now i have this about both of i want to come around with the mind and we ask that your questions kind of do it to truncate because its so much when you talk all night on news we want to keep your questions relatively of course we invite diverse new questions so you have think everybody probably hear me because im a teacher because ill use well its pretty good so thank you very much for being here im wondering two things are the judges and the i understand about the businesses who fund prisons and take the kind of the food and all that i know where that money goes but the judges and the people in the system, are they complicit or are they brainwashed to think theyre helping . What where does that come from . And also there a legislative opportunity need to stop the flow of federal money to these people. Yes, to all of that. Right. I can i can unpack it a little bit. So maybe starting with the last think there are potential legislative that could happen both at the state level and federal level. Certainly title 40 of the Social Security act. We need improvements right. There needs to be a delinking of title for free from poverty. Right. So to the extent that it is available and provided right, it isnt based on poor children. Right. And there could be improved guidance from the federal government even without legacy. Certainly at the state level know we need to the extent that the revenue is necessary for the Justice Institution to serve its role right. You need that revenue to be from a neutral source right from ideally state county taxation that are that are equitable and not from these revenue schemes. Right. Know we need to have a way that organizations, institutions are funded right. The incentives, i do think, you know, like our justice or prosecutors, ive seen examples or some prosecutor will directly get some revenue right. If enough, its not the individual, its its the office which the judges, the prosecutor work. You look at the annual reports and its line items and the revenue for the annual annual report, sometimes millions. So even if i again that argue even if an individual judge doesnt know right or if theyre if theyre trying to do their best, what our constitution requires for impartiality is not just actual impartiality, but appearance of impartiality. And thats such a crucial idea because, you know, if youre trying to establish a conflict right, you know, you could have a judge approach. You could say, well, theres theres just incentives. Yeah, we can make more money. If more children or poor are removed from their homes. But that doesnt faze me. Right . You know. And how do you prove that is is challenging to say the least. So. So one of the longest principles of due process in our country is the principle of not just actual but the appearance of impartiality. Its crucial crucial. Hi. So im a Child Support legal aid practitioner and when i tell even my most progressive friends that the government actually profits off of 40 Child Support cases where parents are essentially forced into and a father made to pay money for a child doesnt even go to the child that has been pocketed by the government. People are shocked, feel like this is something that not enough people know. And so im just wondering, i routinely hear people exclaim that, you know, they were unaware that this is a practice thats been going on for decades. How, you know, beyond just reading your book, how do we get out the word that systems are treating poor and people of color in this really important way . Well, definitely by the book, first. But what what youre doing know is such a crucial part that you know and you know, you have my applause, you know, for the work i used to work, legal aid, i engaged in some Child Support advocacy there as well as representing youth in the foster care system in all areas of poverty. Right. I think most people have no idea that theres thing thats called Child Support thats not even known to children. And california. One of the numbers thats up to 40 of the Child Support that and keep in california. And then even for families where its where it is owed to the children. Right. You the the systems called because so much and thats harm because the judges are supposed to navigate you know the theyre competing struggles the hardships and the needs right. And to only order Child Support when in the best interests of the child an amount thats in the best interest of the child. And thats payable and only use the Enforcement Mechanisms when its in the childs best interest. So even in those cases where its not owed to the government, right. If the court is financially right, you see intense harm and reports and maryland and even more so. And baltimore are just stark in terms and terms of the harm thats caused it. You know, and this from know old historic what were called man in the house rules right you know early on with with what was welfare and the u. S. Went when the public aid really for and the us it was only available to white families right it really wasnt until Civil Rights Movement that you started see gradually that public was made available to non white and thats somehow at the time when you started to see all this pushback from elected officials against public aid for the poor terms, welfare queens and deadbeat dads would start to come up in terminology and this lashing out against against poor family with a false narrative. So i couldnt more you know the arm is intense i think we have to keep trying you know i hope if we can interest more journalists, you know, like, you know more book talks again, i think like what red emmas is doing to increase awareness. And and we are we are seeing some change. Like i will say, like you, you know, ive worked with the a lot of advocates the issue of Child Support in the foster care system of the pursuing Child Support against parent who are trying to and we were able to encourage some improved guidance from the federal government. Right. Which now discouraged from do that it doesnt stop the practice, but its a step in the right direction. And some states have now indicated they are going to stop. So, again, change is possible but we have to keep striving for that. You know, i keep you know, i use ideals on you can tell im idyllic, right you know, but we have to be, you know because if if we start stops for the ideals of equal justice, right, that they tend to be replaced with their opposite. And thats a good thing about. Other times that this has been taking. Well, a couple of things this might be just as much of communism may be question one especially because i come from a minister, a background. In fact, you go to what degree you. Faith is a faith leadership knows about this particular situation probably no more than than you know most of us do and so you know following up on point in terms of what are the barriers museums by which we get this information, certainly i think this book and this information generally, it has to get into the of faith leadership, especially especially from conservatives standpoint. So much of this, we put all of faith bodies terms of what if you want to change, you just do charity. Just take that. You know, do the nice things. And i fake leadership is going to have to understand this aspect of oppression and deconstructing it. But im also thinking about the Prison Abolition Movement and and how leadership in that area and our prison abolition voices, many of which of course, are part of britains broader network. Many all of us who spoken here from that standpoint are wondering how the prison abolition is able to address this particular niche of, quote, oppression systemic oppression or. Do you not hear those voices even on disinformation here . And how might this information feed into that movement . I think theyre excellent. And, you know, i think all the organizations, you know, the indicator, our faith organizations are nonprofit organizations are all our Government Agencies are private for profit. You know, corporations kind of work towards improvement. Right. If we ethically motivated and you know, and it starts with awareness. So i agree that the more can inform some of these practices including current advocates and i will you know, ill take the blame myself too. I sometimes there is a difficulty the Advocacy Community where we can we can have a tendency to put the blinders on right and work on one particular issue that that were engaged in, were researching in, or that were engaged in advocacy on and not all the interconnections. Right. That can be causing harm to the individuals or to the systems that were trying to improve. So we have to keep branching out and collaborate each other. I think thats a crucial. I think i see no question. Two different with i think i think if i im trying to get my brain around the financial aspects of it me to action i am vision and narrative from a certain side of people that are saying like we allocate money are caring for the children and so thats why were taking the money and what im hearing you say is its not actually going for the caring of the children. Im i try and then im just trying understand that because im thinking like, oh, my daughter is out of college. She worked as a counselor, caseworker for children in aged out of foster care. And so part of that program, they live in apartments and they get provided education and they have to have treatment and and all of the they but you take their money right that the agency the money because its in that case i felt it seemed it was actually helping children theyre getting something for their money as part of the exact so im trying to understand i its really difficult theyre like follow that that narrative of and i imagine a conservative voice. Well thats kind of how it should be like you should take care of your child and this my take and trying to justify so how we sit narrative right its a good dominant question and know and the advocacy i did for multiple years am regarding issue of the agencies taking resource from children in their care including Survivor Benefits. Ive heard pushback from multiple Agency Leaders say, well, look, you know, caring for foster youth is expensive. It is expensive. You know, the foster children didnt choose to be removed from their homes. Right. You know, theyre not there by choice. First of all, we need to make sure to provide the services to the families. Right. To reduce that need, to even have the removal in the first place. And then what youre seeing through their practices. Right. The the agencies is have a but a obligation both under federal law and state law to provide and pay for those services. Children dont foster youth legally and smartly, morally, arent supposed to pay for their own foster care. Right. So here you have the agencies that their only reason to exist is to serve those youth, to serve their best interests. So, you know, its nonsensical at best for them to literally take resources from the individuals they exist, serve and better and then it and i argue its illegal like and i you know, ive written multiple pieces about that and theres litigation happening in the country and legislation. So hopefully that will continue to improve. But also, you know what, when you uncover the the agencies that agencies when they take the money from from children, theyre not even getting more revenue from themselves. Right. That doesnt result in more a more resource for the agency, provide more assistance to more kids. What does is it replaces states by taking the kids money. Right. So its supplanting you know what it requires state dollars, the state budget through general appropriations, literally by taking resources from abused and neglected children. Sometimes that happens. And we mentioned you know, education. Ive seen it happen in the Education System in some states on new jersey as an example, ive learned about will or pursue and work with the private Revenue School based medicaid, which is needed desperately needed for youth in need and who need the services in new jersey, right in budget documents theyll after they work with the School Systems the School Districts to maximize the pursuit of the school based medicaid, the low income children essentially for special ed related services. The state then will take over percent of that and, read it right into the general coffers. So again, using the children in the schools as way to maximize that revenue. So its a good question. So yes, it costs money to run these institutions, but they shouldnt be taking from the individuals they exist to, especially not our foster care agencies. Because were here, were right across well, well, that last question. Can fill in a lot of things. Me the one thing that i dont know, even though its possible, is to just put some numbers on it. The say you have, your job or your bill in your or whatever it says okay it costs this much 4 billion and elizabeth claims Survivor Benefits is this much and you made that maybe in the book i read the book but then that kind of thing where i could okay now. Oh there is a fee okay that fee is well a percentage of the fees thats nice out there but okay that fee for ability is 37, 50 a month and. Then i know that if that, if thats a possibility or if that exists in here and i just need to look its its a good comment and question and yes, i have numbers like that. Then this book in the last book and also my last book, the poverty industry, i even show visually like a chart of, of, of foster youth showing the lines of all the revenue that that can come from her. And also looking at an example of of the total revenue that say one state or one county can receive four foster youth. Its a lot, you know, of the various sources when you look at the federal funding streams, the state funding streams overall, we just talked about a couple of the sources and then you at the numbers and the actual for what of that money just went to the family. Right. You know, they actually help, you know, to help them help themselves. Right and instead of creating an industry around. Right. And, you know, look, you know, Like Services are needed like, you know, im not going to say like we need courts, right. You know, like we humans are flawed, you know, like so so are going to need systems, right . But we need to make sure theyre not motivated by money. Theyre motivated by their mission of help. Right. And justice. So its a good question. And, you know, i will try to do more of that because i think its an comment. Lastly, good. So i just wanted to say this was eye opening and i have to say the information very heavy on my spirit if this were a movie, we would throw up a signal over batman and somebody would come and save the day because sounds like what we need. I, i appreciate the comment and i batman is you, right . You know, i mean, i am not saying that in jest, you know, like in the that that you can have to inform countless people right. To contact your elected officials at the county, at the city level, at the state level, at the level right to speak to members of other organizations like you discussed that, you know. Right. And as you increase awareness, right, that hopefully that desire to fix right these wrongs goes with that message and we can Work Together to do that. And i know that sounds, you know, a little bit pie in the sky and hopeful, but its possible, you know, we can Work Together for change. Thats, um. Thank you. Thank you. Government for introducing me to the work i a question or comment. So my question is can we draw similarities between the way the is working and into aviation generally speaking weve seen this trend and going to the global south and then absolutely abandoning the main mission and using people who your supposed to have the of revenue and. This also brings me to the comment which is i hear you and i need everyone asking of what the reality is and i agree its not utopia. Its hard, its labor. But the same time we need to be conscious of institutions themselves like these whose institutions are based like courts and like whole Justice System is based punishment. Theyre not necessarily trying to help those children. We would like think so too. So those are some. But they think that parents, the children, someone is at fault and focus is punishing the other person rather than understanding. And thats why this is jerome speaking. So ill take my experience. Zero. Yes, it would be like this is the law without actually thinking about spirit of the law itself. So i think we need by definition to show that rather than an institution that goes law. So like i hear about like doing survivor work and doing within this system, but i believe that it would lead nowhere. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the question. And the comment and i agree you know, like as as a comparison with many types of International Aid work, you know, where that mission can can shift and multiple i think we have this individually often to like you know this you know nonprofits you know are they are they serving their mission right are they using the mission to make money right. And and you can you know, courts have that tension where i teach universities have that attention. Right. You know, are we serving purely the educational goal . Right. Are we chasing revenue right me as an individual right. Am i working towards cause of justice or am i using cause to better myself . Right . So now we can go on and on so we like that tension exists, humans and as organizations we have to be really careful to keep self reflecting that we stay the right side of that tension right. There are courts are prosecutors are Probation Departments. The policing agencies as it as i write about in the book, have gotten on the wrong side. That tension, right. Your comment as well, i think is a good right. Yeah, but i will say, like im not willing give up on the ideals right. You know, like im not naive. Right but i believe in the ideal of justice, right . I dont think were there. Right. I dont think weve ever been there, you know, with equal justice, we have to have that ideal our goal. Right. Or else what are we working right. And i just think thats thats so crucial. But but i appreciate it. Come in a minute. Were about to give a real big round of applause to our speakers. I want to remind everybody that the cafe is still open drinks and snacks from time to network with each other to put into practice. What weve been talking about in terms of how we move forward never really should to be somebody certainly come meet our speakers for the evening any of the books that you see all from purchase. We do have a couple of people that probably industry as well and theres want to take that up as well. The book is Injustice Incorporated a shout out to the university of california press. We have a number of excellent titles from them, and this is certainly a much needed new addition to day and Shanta Trivedi. Follow her at Shanta Trivedi Shanta Trivedi. Thank you so much for coming up. I wish you university of baltimore colleague follow daniel at poverty law. Prof. You got a right off our property law. Prof. Make sure you stay in contact and get the book here tonight. Or if you anywhere in the us for red emmas award from red of us down or get it for somebody get it for the people that you know the organizations you know so that they can read it have it on there so that we can act in Justice Incorporated how the Justice System commodifies children and the poor just give up our big round applause one more time for you you