Transcripts For CSPAN3 Ronald 20240704

Cspan now app. A healthy democracy does not just look like this. It looks like. This where americans can see democracy at war. And citizens are truly informed. A republic drive. Get informed straight from the source on cspan. Unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the Nations Capital to wherever you are. It is the opinion that matters the most is your own. This is for democracy, this is what democracy looks. Like cspan, powered by cable. Welcome to uncommon. All i am peter robinson. Today a conversation hosted with the Ronald Reagan institute, and in a moment jamie fly and hr mcmaster will join me and discussing president reagans june, 12th 1987 tear down this wall speech. But since i was a speech writer who wrote the speech i have been asked and general mcmaster has ordered me to tell the story of this speech. Right there by the way is the first page of president reagans speaking copy. You can see my name as a speech writer in the upper left hand corner. First is some historical background. After the second world war, west berlin, which is a portion of berlin itself, remained under american and british and french control even as east berlin and all of the surrounding east germany came under the control of a communist regime. This was very important to grasp. West berlin was completely surrounded by the communist east. And you can see that west berlin was a little dot inside east germany. Again, after the war thousands of east germans flee to the communist regime in east germany to the democratic west. How did they do this . Very often they do it just by stepping across the street into west berlin and once they were in west berlin they could get on a train which had the right to cross east german territory to the west. So leaving was simple. And by 1961, a fifth of the entire population of east germany has done just that. They had fled. To stop this big enormous exodus, the east germans proposed a physical barrier and moscow agreed. In the middle of the night of august 13th 1961, the east germans strung barbed wire all the way around putting it off. There is a that shows this barbed wire and after that they would place the cinder block with slabs of concrete 13 feet high. More than a quarter of a century later, the berlin wall remained in place. Again, circling west berlin. There were slides that showed where the wall cut off it Brandenburg Gate with president reagan mentioning the gate in the speech and they were in 18th century monument that once served as a ceremonial entrance to berlin and berlin lot cuts it off. That brings me to the speech itself. It was the spring of 1987. Im a young speech writer in the Reagan White House. Im told that the president will speak in front of the berlin wall. But you have an audience of between ten and 40,000 people. Its about 40,000 people. Hell speak for about half an hour and given the setting the subject will be Foreign Policy. That was all the guidance i got. I flew to west berlin with the American Party and the security people who would work at security would be west german members of the press office who track the camera angles and so forth. And i went to gather material for stops in berlin enforce the site where the president will speak. Its a very difficult to convey how momentous the place fails. The rush, talk which still stole more damning from the second world war, climb the observation platform and looked over the hall into east berlin. Behind, me west berlin in modern cities like motion and traffic. On the other side of the wall colorless notice in more soldiers and pedestrians and onesided lies on the other side twilight next i went to the ranking american diplomat in berlin it was full of 80s what president reagan should not say. East west relations are very nuanced. Subtle. No anti communist rhetoric. Here no commie bashing. Never mentioned the, wall theyve gotten used to it by now. They were given their ride in the u. S. Army helicopter. And from the air, and look even worse this state from the ground. In west berlin. Because from the air you could see what lay on the other side of the wall. Guard wrongs and dog towers in a nomansland. Then, that evening, i broke away from the American Party to go to a suburb. Residential suburb of west berlin. Where dinner party was put on for me by visa and they had worked on the world bank in washington. They had friends and common in washington. We talked about this and. That then, i told him that the american diplomats have all gotten used to the berlin wall. That turned out to be incorrect. They may have stopped talking about after all these years, but if you asked became very clear that they still hated that wall every day. They were in the comrade, and gorbachev was serious with the talk of perestroika. They would come to berlin improve a beginning right of the wall. Putting that in my notebook immediately, a native Ronald Reagan has been there in my place he wouldve responded to the simplicity in the decency of that remark. Back in washington, drafting the speech it went to the president when we can when there was camp david. Theres something of a story there, because almost always in the Reagan White House the speech we go to staffing before much of the president. But with speech writers were able to persuade the staff secretary to let the president see the speech before it went out to staffing. The following monday, showing this. Meeting following monday, 18 to 1980. Seven speech writers went to the oval office with the president , singling out the passage tearing down the wall. Something that you particularly wanted to say. That will need to come down and thats what i would say. Then the speech went to a staffing in for three weeks until the president delivered the state department or the National Security council opposed it, trying to stop it. In part by submitting one alternative draft after another. Each with amid the call to tear down the wall. Heres a slide that shows one comment where it is exit. Calling to tear down the wall. And their side with the memorandum to have the tower on the National Security council at that time. Then we shall see the memorandum call with the speech mediocre. And a missed opportunity. In italy the president had been attending an economic summit before going to west berlin. In italy, as they get on air force one to fly to west Berlin State Department over another alternative draft, and in a west oberlin only way to the wall i heard this from the deputy chief of staff who is in the limousine with the president , Ronald Reagan explained that there was a speeches written, and then he said the boys are going to kill me for this, but it is the right thing to do. And that is the story of the speech that Ronald Reagan delivered on june 12th, 1987. This is something the soviets would make that will be unmistakable. Its dramatically causing the freedom and peace and general secretary gorbachev, if you seek peace and see prosperity for the soviet union in Eastern Europe and you seek liberalization come here to this gate. Gorbachev, open this gates. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Jimmy fly is the president and ceo of Radio Free Europe and radio liberty, and mr. Hice served during the Bush Administration on the National Security council and in the office of the secretary of defense. It was degrees from American University at georgetown. William served as chair of the Climate Center for National Security at the university of texas and austin and at the Bush Administration he served at the National Security council. He holds his degree from stanford in an undergraduate degree from stanford with a doctorate from yale. Mcmaster served as the white house National Security adviser to president trump. And in the United States army, and when she rose to lieutenant general. General mcmaster is the author of the classic work on the vietnam, dereliction of duty. And last, year he published battleground. Fight to defend the free world. A fellow at the Hoover Institution, general mcmaster holds an undergraduate degree in the United States military academy, and a doctor to the university of North Carolina at chapel hill. Jamie, will and h are, thanks for joining us. Jimmy, fly lets set the stage. And his first trip to germany in 1978, im getting arrested for the Reagan Institute. On this first trip to germany in 1970, eight reagan visited the site where 16 years, earlier 18 year old peter vector, this is an east german who tried to escape over the wall, was shot and bled to death in no mans land. The former california governor of this delegation also ventured into east berlin. And was just about what they saw of life under east german communism. Jamie, between 1970 when Ronald Reagan first visited the wall, and 1987 when he spoke in front of the wall, what had changed . To use the soviets turn, correlation of forces shifted . Thanks for having me to the reagan. Institute i was struck when i was racing will ungentlemanlike master. This was the mine. I think we also did you, and even amazing job keeping the story of the development of the speech alive. And i thank you for that, you should generations will understand the context better. If i was writing the essay and with that period what struck me was how much the drum republic at suffrage during that period. As decades passed and germans especially west berliners moved well beyond the initial establishment of the wall which happened overnight speaking actually from berlin. And are speaking from here in berlin. It happened suddenly with families, friends werent prepared for it and some were situations is the beginning to interact rather quickly. Some people took their lives into their own hands hands trying to please the west in four minus sending a german history, people became more more. Depressed and optimistic about the potential for change. From 1987 the accepted government German Government as some of these policies that they did that change would be simple and quick and various types of engagement with east germany and the soviet union. Often to the consternation of the u. S. Administration. And so i think reagans arrival came with a key moment where germans especially west germans needed a shot in the arm and they needed that encouragement and that change was still possible with hope should be maintained for some sort of different future for germany. Thats the start of the line with a charming of reagan. The state Department Official who i saw in berlin was an article he wrote much later. By 1980, seven, quote germany lay not with what Ronald Reagan boat with nicole gorbachev. Close quote. It was clear that the soviet union has stagnated it by 1970 states had researched. Including the germans could see it. Yet europeans like your potentially more hopeful figure and going to hr mcmaster, how could that begin hr . I think it has everything to do with confidence in our form of governance. Confidence in who we are as a people. And confidence in a transatlantic relationship and confidence among the free states of europe at the time. What i hope to do with this essay is to make analysis and i think think the point theyre making implicitly peter is that we can regain our confidence in who we are as a people. An inter democratic form of governance. And we can do it with affective leadership. And with some clarity. Clarity that that that speech provided in the leadership that Ronald Reagan provided. Will, i am quoting. You come down to the fight. Well and bowden, quote, the comments from the state department and the staff on early speech drafts give labor of their thinking. I pwis earlier, but you provide a much more extensive overview of their comment on speech drafts. Coating the state department, this one flight with a german. Its not sentimental people. Seems silly as it is. This must come out. West germany not want to see east germans insulted. We need concrete ideas. Not sentimental too much emphasis on good guys versus bad guys. Okay. The state department and the anissa v. Did not like that speech. Will and vote in, i quoted a little bits and pieces, but these were highly intelligent. Very experienced people. Not that went through my mind at the. Time what were they thinking . Peter, i think they were reflecting a lot of the conventional wisdom and the expert opinion. I could do that derisively this is where i think it really brings a reagan strategic genius. And he was willing to summarize it this way. Mostly conventional of Foreign Policy wisdom of the, day including every previous american president in a cold war and seen the cold war primarily as a power contest between the powerful soviet union the powerful United States. Theyre largely managing that. And at the same time we need to assume the soviet union the warsaw pact would be almost an perpetrated the with permanent features on the geopolitical landscape. You know very well when a traditional due speech he saw the cold war as primarily a battle of ideas. And happiness to powerful countries embodying. The cold war terms of, ideas, tyranny, capitalism communism, democracy against the killer ship, he also thought that of the cold war in terms of how corrupt affect individual people. And he was aware of the sentiments of many of the People Living behind the iron curtain of the east germans. Trapped by the wall there. A lot of the sentiments that you pick up from that dinner party. And with thereagan was willing o against a lot of Expert Opinions in the state department and Foreign Policy establishment that wanted to see the cold war in terms of these rival power blocs. So you know we can push this farther. We can stand up for our ideas that freedom is better than tyranny, and speak to the people behind the iron curtain. And in some ways channel their voices. I think we have an entirely different strategic decision and case for the cold war was all of that that he was willing to back up his speech writers like. You and say, this has not been were not worried buckets were speaking to the heart of the terrain german people and even to the hearts of the german people. You ran the National Security council. Let me put it this way. There was an event a couple of years ago the mark the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. And his jamie no to they had too much prompting to tell the story of this speech. Hours a very sophisticated diplomacy. Their wait a minute, now. Thats the speech worked out. It does not prove it was the right decision to give it. George schmaltz along others put in a tight spot. They try to work with the americans, present comes along and challenges you. Asks, what are you doing, comrades . Theyre looking to to stick up for the nsa v. And its objections to the speech 30 some years ago. Jamie, you are right in the middle of berlin or as far as i can tell the germans forgot the speech or dont care to be removed. Im giving you guys a chance. Come in his stick up for these guys. The process is important because you want to give the president a broad range of views but a National Security adviser job is because you are the only person in the United States government in the Foreign Policy National Security arena who has the president faces her or her only clients. Your job is to give the president to say. It is really important to spend time with the president on as you did peter these important speeches. I had a great relationship with your old friend and a speech writers and we Work Together in a number of speeches that got to the president or. Leigh so he could put his imprint on. It a present trumps worst speech for example there were echoes of the berlin speech in that speech and its immensely important aspect of the job to help the president s that crab speeches to allow him to decide when his Foreign Policy agenda is. And importantly for our democracy to make it public because the American People support really decent initiatives. Whether president realize enough is theres more domestic focus, like. President trump, for. Example i think the person sometimes underestimated degree to which those over seas hang on every single word of the president s speech and i think this is what you got so right. For that speech spoke to an international audience. In a powerful and profound way. Okay. Well, by the way this is where im stepping in and clearing up one thing because i wrote in a slightly strange thing. I wrote in it was true as far as it goes but were up 100 percent with Ronald Reagan. We would not have written for anybody else, that we had worked for Vice President george h. W. Bush and we never in it for hair him. Reagan and raegan lowe wouldve insisted on delivering the speech. George bush, Vice President bush and every Foreign Policy speech the first question always ask when i drafted a Foreign Policy speech is has he approved this . Thats the first question. All three of you, but jamie. Next well stay with Ronald Reagan here for a moment. This is the story. Quite a famous. Story told to me by allen, who is Ronald Reagans first National Security adviser. The years 1997 and raegan is now a former governor has just lost their are public and president ial nomination zero for. There is no inkling that hes gonna run for. President still he is paying close attention to world affairs. And allen stops by his house in the palisades, and brief him on world affairs. And then arrogance as we like to hear my theory on the cold war . And of course. Governor than ronald, reagan up with a stand and writing for. Me quoting from this. This is reagan. Speaking some people think im simplistic but there is a difference between being simple and being simplistic. My theory but the cold war is if we win, and they lose, well how do you operationalize that . Here is the whole Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger and jimmy carter, same here at the or none it fear of communism. Well slogans impulses are turning upside down it is now that mueller feels a little risky. Im a big fan of the approach that especially with liberty. And i think the moral clarity of reagans essential here. And is incredibly fearful of their own citizens. When they realize there is democracy are resilient and united i mean that strikes fear into the heart of every authoritarian leader. Thats where they speech was so powerful. He setting like this, thats one thing in terms of presenting the moral clarity, division. Then you can debate the tactics. The diplomacy and the negotiations. Which obviously a very engaged in extensively. One brief comment on the process, the conversation was happening earlier, i had only a big role in the george w. Bush administration. With Margaret Rubio for. Year i wrote my share speeches with him. What i fans in all of the policy jobs, was that far too many people in governments and the National Security apparatus, they lose sight of ultimately who they work for and why or whether the president or a senator theyre in a position, they were the ones elected. Its ultimately their voice. Most people were like it for the right reasons. Theyre having confidence for certain reason. And all of the process is necessary. But ultimately many staffers i think drive to box in their principles. To move their principles through Something Like a speech writing process. And they forget, fundamentally, where their bosses vision. Is their bosses instinct. The nfc working in the senate is where we would debate for hours over email or days about a speech, and then put it in front of your boss. And they would quickly resolve all of the issues. Because it was not even a question for the. Probably werent overworked dont one of those experiences. All i can say is where were you guys when i needed you 33 years ago . Okay. A little more sightings. In 1989 were a bit more than two years after reagans deliver the speech and in the east german city of leipsic they have held weekly Prayer Services followed by small peaceful demonstrations. I am compressing a complicated story here. But these weekly demonstrations, as they grow, they spread across the country of east germany and by early november a demonstration of more than 100,000 as marched in east berlin itself. This brings us to the night of november 9th 1989 when the east German Bureau is meeting an emergency section and they decide to change rules concerning border crossings and one member of the bureau goes out to brief the press. And gets it wrong. Some trains for small technical change theyre considering that will take place sometime but he gets it wrong. And a reporter says wait a minute do you mean that all border controls have ended immediately . And the Bureau Member thanks for martin says, yes. This is on radio and television within minutes. Literally just a few minutes. East germans come instrument through the checkpoints in the berlin wall. Hes german guards have no idea whats going on. Theyve not received new orders. And there is a tense moment as the crowds grow where they began shouting. Car horns are honking. And the guards realize they have two choices. Use force or open the gate. And they open the gate. And the berlin wall has ceased to function. All right, again. Reagan speech on june 12th 1987 and the walls fall csis to function. Effectively falls on november 9th 1989. Or those two events connected in any way . Well . Absolutely, peter. Yeah i think we can trace almost even a direct cause and effect. I dont take this too far. Obviously the people of germany deserve tremendous credit for their own agency in rising up and tearing down the wall. It was a really fascinating historical accidents of miscommunication and communist bureaucrats in a couple of guards that had but how the service can perceive income about that the german people would feel like they could rise up and demand their own freedom when if you look at this throughout the cold war, proxy 1968 in budapest in 1976, previous times when each storm and citizens were trying to claim their freedom from the soviet overlords, the red army would roll in. So i think the causality after all, does that reagan kind of gain voice to the hope that freedom in circumstances and pressures and changes that correlate to forces. So that the german people could take advantage of that opportunity when history presented itself. One of the thing on that if i was. Id were containing the earlier. It does get into the role of gorbachev and expertise. Because one reason why the wall came out peacefully in november of 89 was because of what gorbachev didnt. Do he did not he repeated the risk of tanks rolling in. And i want to go back to the most when the most important parts of tear down this wall as what reagan says right before mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Why does he directed us to gorbachev, rather than just an abstract, words into the air that he hopes the wall will come down . Hes because with our discussion earlier and Foreign Policy expertise, that speech was being written which member the nicest government knew gorbachev best . Which members United States government to spend more time with gorbachev than any other person . Ronald reagan. And that is why reagan knew that from his countless hours and gorbachev. The summit with her letters and phone calls they had a really intuitive sense that this guy gorbachev put them further and demand them to tear down that wall would cause a complete rupture in the entire the cold war turning heart it would really have an intuitive stance from gorbachev and more than all the kremlin to the state department or cia out that balance, pushing the sky but also expecting a handout. I think the gorbachevs role into the cold war, what if it was facilitated and causing the right balance of pressure and it helps create the circumstances and november of 89, the german people excuse me, well. I dont do this in a zoom call but i would like to lean forward and kiss you write on the forehead. I am worried about this for 34 years. Of course you are right we knew that gorbachev could take it let me tell you but meeting Mikael Gorbachev this is a long time ago in this might be 15 years ago now but one of the things is the former leaders of the great communist power was become socialist. Beg your, pardon capitalist. And he came to the United States and gave talks. Mike reagan the president on interviews will help. Mike arrangement to go backstage enemies gorbachev. I can see that gorbachev translate is talking to and telling him that he ran that speech. Gorbachev laughed, and he said drama tour. And then explained to his translator. This was just a piece of theater. He knew that Ronald Reagan, and Ronald Reagan could not resist the line, but it made no difference to them in moscow at all. Jamie, hr, stick up for gorbachev will . You the speech should not make any difference. It does not make that much. It doesnt matter maybe from a difference to him or anybody in moscow. It made a law difference to the drummers at east germans in particular. It is somebody who i was serving as a cabinet a second United States cavalry on the border of east germany and west germany in the river of 1989. And on that day near cobourg, germany, the town or Martin Luther translated the bible into germany and the birthplace of hogs morgenthau all, this is where our soldiers went, our cavalry troopers went from one moment staring down east german Border Guards to the next moment seeing the gates thrown open and then ten cents thousands and the tens of thousands of east germans pouring across that border bearing bouquets of flowers and bottles of wine. And there were hugs and tears of joy. And i will tell you i saw a direct correlation not only back to the speech but to the resolve that president reagan demonstrated by affecting a renaissance in our military in the 1980s. And demonstrating our resolve to, as you said in his words, when you cited that early interview that hey, we went and they lose. So i felt as a direct correlation, peter, and got to witness it firsthand in colbert, west germany. I will try one more time to find somebody who will we are just way over doing this. You know correct lay that 12 you say the speech at the time the speech was largely ignored and i remember personally a little bit was ignored because it did get covered, but it was just treated us the way the press would treat any statement by the president s. Nothing special. And then the wall fell and the speech all the sudden found its this is going to opening up but cant think of any other way to put. It it was effectively prophetic. But at the saw of it was just a speech. Jamie . Yeah. I think some of the sum of gorbachevs views may have been traced. I think i mentioned this in my essay, i cant remember you heads written elsewhere. They brief the soviets in advance to warn seize them about the lies. So that couldve just banned some of the bureaucratic way. So the Reagan Administration gave a heads up, essentially. The soviet ambassador in berlin or elsewhere. But ultimately i agree with general. I think it made things much more difficult for gorbachev if he had wanted to intervene, whether it was in germany and berlin and ember 1989 or in poland or czechoslovakia or in hungary. That was a fundamental out saving points when it became clear that the citizens of those countries have had enough and were going to rise up, and were going to be too much for their communist clients governments to prevent from and they all need it, ultimately, so we interventions they were to survive. That is what the playbook had been for decades. Previously. Whether it was or prod 68. It was always the red army. If gorbachev kept the red army in the barracks, it was done, essentially. I think that is ultimately even the strengthening of the Public Perceptions in germany and in berlin and in the east as we now, i will do this in the east as well. That is what made it difficult for gorbachev, i thank. Eliminated his options. He really didnt even have much of an option and then at that point. You can also then look, obviously, at the other diplomacy that the administration engaged in with gorbachev. There are efforts to actually reach out to him. I guess later in the george h. W. Bush administration. Trying to find ways to support him which probably played a role. Ultimately i think gorbachev had his hands on it when the key moment came. Okay. So. Lessons for today. China in a moment, the Biden Administration in the moment. Right now, ill stay with jamie because he succeeded in berlin as we speak. This has been something of a disappointment really. I am quoting you, jamie. United germany is now the largest economy in europe and the continents natural leader. Yet despite significant progress on his willingness to play a leading role, many german policy makers continue to resist. The responsibility that comes with such power, close quote. So, we have that celebration of reunification in 1994, that is a formal reunification. And there is that moment of playing the final chorus from beethovens ninth symphony in Brandenburg Gate, fireworks exploding, its an moment. Europe is democratic and free and starting to be prosperous and now we come to a continent that seems, well jamie, you tell us whats happened here. The german part of the story is complex. Some of it relates to germany being tortured by its pre cold war history. Uncertain of its footing. Unwilling to be provocative in its policy thinking. There is also a to be. Honest look back at the speech just about the division that still exist in german society. It is striking and i am talking to you from east berlin where ive been listening in recent months. But i was in west berlin a few weeks ago its dinner. Met some new people. From west berlin. And talking to them about where we live, there was another world to them. It was part of berlin they dont even venture into. They referred to as the soviet zone. That moves on for people. Even now. And these were people who would have bent around the time of 89 children. So its people who spent a significant part of their lives living during that divided past. German politics remain divided in the way that east german votes and the success of some of the farright parties, for instance. So a lot of thats divided legacy lives on. And i think the fundamental question when it comes to german leadership in the world, german Foreign Policy, is whether the next generation, we can see this after the september elections this year is more willing to step up and move beyond the world war ii legacy and the holocaust legacy and move beyond some of the divisions of the cold war era. And assume that leadership mantle. Which to be honest given that i also spent a lot of time and progress there parts of europe, the rest of europe is looking to them to play. To take that leadership role. Not just economically which they have now for decades, but to take a stand for values and for policy, Foreign Policy whether visavis russia or china, that matches the significant history of their recent decades. And the benefits they have achieved from german reunification. So it is a big open question that still exist in german society. Come trying out and you in just a moment but will how would you evaluate. This, removes and how do we evaluate the american efforts in europe in cold war four and a half decades beginning with permanent runs right through bush. There is a global problem, but europe is also that really matters. Europe is the center of it. And we have this law expensive bipartisan experts, long twilight struggles as john kennedy called it. We went to 34 years later we had a president over there and now coming together on Climate Change forgive me. I dont want to become partisan. The europeans are europeans and they fight them unofficially in the clung to us for decades because we are protecting them against the soviets its just disappointing. Im sure a lot of the concerns, jamie is on the front line of trying to stand up for transatlantic values and maintain the Atlantic Alliance over. There it goes beyond this leader to leader relationship and the values and commitment of european in American People. The one great strength for that or resource for that is the history you working to defeat nazism tyranny. Each needs to learn those lessons and a new. Because you just talk of american policy in europe, two quick things i want to highlight picking up on general mcmaster. First of all is how important the american rule up an expansion was with after world war ii the United States we rapidly demobilization again behind our forces. It would be way down, and for good reason. Once we see the emerging threat of soviet communism, and we have to be. Localized building up that military which helps prevent further with russia strengthening his diplomacy. And thats what strength is. About building the world most powerful and fearsome military so you dont have to go into a and you can use that to pull your adversary because the military solution is not there. The other key one, which gets to this Point Richard values, is will the United States leads the way in creating the Atlantic Alliance . For the first hundred and 50 years of our existence as a country, going back to washingtons farewell address, lets. Not have those alliances. The director into european war that you dont want. They create allies. For truman and eisenhower to reverse, that they know that we do need to enter this atlantic treaty organization, this Atlantic Alliance. They knew that was going to be a strength in the United States. And it was something that certainly the western european governments wanted as well. This is why they can refer to nato is the most successful Treaty Alliance in history. It enabled reagans vision of corporate speeches that you would really have wanted that speech and victory. Its somewhat different. Now its not the soviet union anymore. Describing and certainly of course. China which is not just the asia pacific. But coming over european threat as well. Its a redraw electorate history in shared values. Will remind americans and europeans that we will lot better with this is a competition of wills. This competition between our free and open societies, and coastal authoritarian systems were talking about a speech that led to tremendous clarity. I think thats what we need today. Im encouraged by the fact that the Biden Administration has acknowledge that this is not at its base an ideological competition with the Chinese Communist party. We are back that up. The factory is a reduction in the Defense Budget for example. Because of this mantra here from the biden ministration that our policy has become to militarize. What we need is more diplomacy. But when he is what will. Says we need integration of all instruments of national power. And efforts of likeminded partners to prevail in this type of competition and of course we do need more diplomacy. But more diplomacy has to be a better atmosphere a cocktail parties in berlin or paris. You know . Our allies have to step up. Germany has been a weak link. A weak link in connection with the negotiation of the comprehensive agreement on investment, respectfully, is buying in the european parliaments. But also in connection with the competition with Putins Kremlin and the kremlins sustain campaign of political subversion aimed at europe. I would say that campaign is effective in germany, and i would like jimmy may be to comment more about how russia is contributing to a weakening of resolve in germany. But an example of the u. S. Not being as tough on our allies as much as we love them is backing off on the north stream two pipeline. Which is going to give russia coercive power over germanys economy. China, though. I just want to you are in the white house and you are National Security adviser, the top job with the institute that brings together military and diplomatic initiatives. Presenting them to the chief executives of the United States. At the moment when the whole country, partially because of donald trump a partially because of president xi jinping, the whole country is realizing that china is not going to be our friend. We are in for something new here. Hr mcmaster, quote. The berlin wall is an exact analogy for the great firewall of china. The lawsuit naji designed to isolate the realm of the Chinese Communist party for its side, post quotes. All kinds of things are different. China is bigger than the soviet union ever was. It has cash. All we were bought from the russians that we bought from us is the chinese you will know that institution the Silicon Valley up and down the peninsula. A lot of things are due. You are arguing that there is something central to the relationship with china. That is not that different from the relationship with the struggle on the conflict with the soviet union. Is that correct . You can see this with jamie roils its an ideological competition which requires a high degree of clarity and the phrase that comes to mind, if i can paraphrase from reagans speeches, chairman xi, tear down that firewall. We should do our best to get around it. This is what jaime does every, day is trying to reach a press people, people who are not permitted to access a wide range of sources of information. So they have an opportunity to think differently. As will or jamie said earlier, authoritarians are kind of touchy. Theyre kind of sensitive. And you see this with the trys communist party. I think there is a tremendous opportunity for us to use the kind of clarity of the berlin speech to compete much more effectively. With the Chinese Communist party. And i think the best means of doing so is to bypass the great firewall. Let me quote you one more time, jamie. Everybody should read all three. Essays i am holding back and quoting will. Because he was so a few so about the speech and if you get a can handle that part myself. Jamie, reagan said our differences are not, as im quoting, its about weapons but about liberty. This was a reminder about what differentiates the soviet union from the west. These were all principles and that have been neglected by recent u. S. Administration. U. S. Negotiators have been quick to conclude flogged deals v8 with russia or iran and the obama administration. And attempts to do so under the Trump Administration, if you are listening, with north korea, close quote. Your overall point, if i can take this correctly, is that the administration took place too much emphasis on diplomatic cooperation and too little on clarity and forthrightness of principle. Have i got that right . Yes. I think it is clearly especially when you have Nuclear Weapons involved there is a need to negotiate even with authoritarians. We cant hope and aspire to quick regime change. All the countries that threaten us. But there was something obviously to the way that reagan did it even as speaking to gorbachev rather soviets laters he had no problems publicly talking about what was at stake and the cruelty and the hollowness of what that regime represented. And that i think has been the thing in many recent u. S. Administrations. Its a huge challenge in europe going back to what general mcmaster was saying. This is fundamentally part of the problem. Europe and germany trying to deal with the russia that is heading in an incredibly dangerous directions. Cracking down on dissent at home. It would even with the kremlin has done to these organizations in the last two days. Trying to push my own organization out. Which just appear are there for 40 years. They were invited by president yeltsin. Freezing our bank account. And then i russia that is heading in that direction is highly likely to lash out at its neighbors building up forces on ukrainian borders. And china is a very similar story. There is very little interest in most parts of europe in speaking openly and frankly about what is at stake with either of those two powers. From a moral perspective. And you still here especially in germany but also with many other european capitals, a lot of, what we know that they have a lot of problems but on the other hand, we have to do business with them because we need their investment. Certain segments of our economy are incredibly reliant. On engagement with them. And a lot of the airplane mindset has not moved beyond that. And there were similar dynamics as we talked about earlier in germany circuit 1987. Thats how you got the policy from the west German Government at the time but its a significant problem now and then the fundamental question for the u. S. Sideways, how does the u. S. Which i think now over with the Trump Administration of the Biden Administration when it comes to china, has framed the conflicts directly and has highlighted the situation correctly both from a moral perspective and Economic Perspective any defense perspective. How do you bring allies along rapidly have the luxury perhaps to remain neutral in this composition. That is a fundamental challenge and we have seen a starkly different approach from the Trump Administration compared to the biden team on that. Issue as well. Well, the three of you have convinced me that it works pretty well under reagan. Moral clarity, strength, duplicity and so forth. If it works so well under reagan, why have we im gonna grant journeys jamies argument would not seeing quite that kind of moral clarity. The question im going to hit you with in a moment, ill hit will with it. Donald trump, god bless, gave half a dozen real, in my opinion, really wonderful espy speeches. Including in warsaw. Which hr mentioned. Then walk away from the electron and never mentioned them or behaved as if he had given those. He did not seem to be integrated. Why is it seem to be that reagans example still lives and the three of you did that and why is it so hard to follow . Well . It is a puzzle but again a lot of folks have a side and second point is we do need to be careful as we look back at reagan and the record administrations from the hindsight bias that first of all it worked out of course it was so simple because you know pete are not the time it was not really clear that was going to work out reagan had confidence it was but he was trying some very risky things. A lot of conventional wisdom and the soviet threat was somewhat different then the china russia threat that we face today. Hardearned so much especially on the new side easier on the economic side. But well take away as we see china especially from reagan are one remember that our adversary is not the country or people of china but the Chinese Communist party. And the people of china are central allies for us they like getting richer and the Multi Party Democracy and they like living in an orwellian surveillance state they dont like being told how many babies they cannot do not have. They dont like not being able to choose their own leaders. The soviet people did not like that either and reagan spoke to that in part of the strategy was to drive a wedge between the kremlin and the soviet people. They said, america is on your side. We are allies. We need to recapture that with china. A lot more directly to the Chinese People. And, again the organizations that were working for their. Its getting part that you want to come back, to reagan and gorbachev negotiations also, is that with the military buildup and on the moral clarity at the same moment that he was saying mr. Gorbachev teared down this wall, reagan and schultz were still working behind the scenes with the soviets to become the intermediate Nuclear Forces treaty and it is still a treaty that spans an entire baton of Nuclear Weapons its sometimes Foreign Policy experts do make these things harder than they need to be and you can either do diplomacy or you get a top or you can do little nuance diplomacy or you can have a simple jingoistic terms like tear down this wall. You can do both of those things together. And theyve got more perspective when you do them together. That is why again when you go back to work again the when they lose, they wanted to win not just in the hot war that the story is in, if you wanted to win peacefully he knew that you could do that with that diplomacy as long as it was backed up by military strength and moral clarity. Eight are, last question about what it means for today before i move to summary here. Hr mcmaster, quote. Reagans speech provides a reminder that self respect and self respect is foundational to the competition with the Chinese Communist party. Close quote. My first comment on that is that you are a big shot sophisticated thinker and yet you are like reagan in that you keep coming back to the simple point that that all right but how do we achieve self respect as a nation in a time when we are so polarized and when half the country thinks your former boss should be in jail and another half of the Company Thinks that joe biden stole the election and we have got one part of the country watching msnbc and keeping an eye on a lane the other part putting on fox news all day and things were rougher politically during the reagan years is now remembered but it was not like this. So, self respect hr. This is why i think the Reagan Institute of such an important organization. I think that all of us and the institution war working this stage where we i think that we had to make a concerted effort to rebuild our confidence. Confidence in who we are as a people in confidence in our Democratic Institutions and principles and processes. I think we can do that, right . I think that we have to do is demand more from political leaders who are too often compromising principles to score partisan political points. But we cannot wait for them either. We have to do our part to recognize the great promise of america and celebrates the fact that we have to say how we are governed. As will, said i dont think the Chinese People or any people are culturally predisposed towards not wanting a say in how theyre governed. We ought to celebrate how we are on the rule of. Law we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression and we need to encourage institutions to report themselves. I would say that the state is one of those it has some work to do. Ultimately i think that the number one priority for us these days ought to be education. Education is particularly about our history. Thats why were so excited to participate in this discussion. With you and jamie and will, because i think that when you learn the history of the reagan years you see the contrast between the carter malays speech and the real crisis of confidence in the 1970s. Remember stagflation . Or lost warn vietnam . Remember the embargo . Our competence was shaking like it is shrinking today. But it does not have to remain permanent. Just like the wall. Just like that east west report, we can change it. I think we have to do is educate ourselves. We educate ourselves about the great comment of our public and recognize as the founder state that this republic required constant nurturing. Lets start nurturing our republic and regaining our confidence. Well. Right to have questions for you. Ill go around to give each of your shot at this. We are coming up and in fact we are at an hour something have to ask you something. Brief giving it so he possibly can. And heres a first question. Im gonna give you two quotations. Jim hochul at the washington post, writing soon after reagan in berlin address. Quote, history is likely to require this challenge featured on the wall as a meaningless talk. Close quote. It is quotation number one. It was quotation number two. This comes from joaquin who at the time was a lutheran pastor and democracy advocates inside east germany. Who later went on to become president of the unified reunified germany. Quote, this is speaking a couple years ago. Reagan spoke to the right words at the right time. And in the right place. Close quote. Will, who is right . Certainly the pastor. Put on a quest because i thought it would be a bit of a closer call of this point. Look, reagan has a strategic imagination to envision a World Without the berlin wall in the iron curtain and even without the soviet union. Jamie . Certainly president and hr . Here to make it, unanimous there could be trouble. Lets also emphasize, words and deeds, right . We have talked about the military strength and the broad range of diplomatic efforts. We talked about the tears on the wall, speech as well as sustained efforts to eliminate a class of Nuclear Weapons. I think it is the integration of policy and a broad range of efforts with those powerful words. You have to deal with with the Hoover Institution with my colleagues . He says yes yes words matter whatever soften you need to call in the tanks. Last question. All three of you are or have been teachers. Hr is teaching this term. Our guest the charm suspended. Willis smack dab in the middle of one of the nations great universities. Jamie is in a certain sense educating tens of millions of people wait and radio liberty. You also have the future. Imagine a high school or college kid today. And that is to say, imagine someone who was born a dozen years or more after Ronald Reagan deliver this speech. Give me a sentence, two sentences, that explained to such a Young American why we are still talking about that speech 34 years later. And what one thing if they can remember one thing about it one thing they need to remember. Jamie, lets go with you first. It is a tall order. Vin i will just say, i think the message i would have is the change the lives of millions because i do think it was that powerful and the basic simple moral clarity played a key role in helping and the cold war. Incredibly difficult to explain that. To people who did not live through that period. I was a kid when the wall fell so i watched it on tv and it had a powerful role in shaping my career from a far. But i would just suggest that we need to bring people to berlin. I think that you can learn even despite the challenges that described that exist here today, people need to see and walk through the Brandenburg Gate. Walk past where the speech is given, talk to berliners who lives and live through that period i think thats the most powerful way to learn about how important the speech was. Hr . I guess two things i think that young people should learn from the speech. And that is the cold war. The arc of history does not guarantee the privacy of our screen open societies, over closed authoritarians. We have to compete effectively. Youre saying the arc of history does not always bend towards justice . We have to grab it and bend it ourselves . And for us to compete effectively requires confidence and i think thats the history should teach us that america is a force for good in the world although we are not flawless but i think we need to reject the orthodoxy of the new left as well as the orthodoxy of the socalled real school which is really an Ideological Movement behind senior sentiments towards isolationism. I think that is what students ought to take away from this. Is that we have to compete and we have to be confidence about americas role in the world. First of all we need to teach this history to remind the students of the truly awful barbarous things that people are capable of doing to the rather. When you see the oppression of soviet communism on the entire world, we should not forget that. I just want to quote my favorite line in this speech, we have not mentioned yet today, this is reagans words. As long as the scar of the wall is permitted to stand this not for the german question alone remains open but the question of freedom for all mankind. And when we look at Chinese Communist tyranny today and north koreas tyranny we are reminded the question of freedom for all men kind is not a historical question alone the present a challenge for our students and our own people today. Jamie fly of radio four, europe and radio liberty, thank you. General hr mcmaster, the Hoover Institution and the author most recently a battleground, thank you. And, will m. Bowdoin of the university of texas, and the author of the forthcoming book, the title of which is about to name, the peacemaker, Ronald Reagan and the white house. Wow, i like that. And the is . Sometimes december january so still about six months away. All right. Jamie, fly will embolden hr mcmaster, thank you. For uncommon in homage, the Hoover Institution and fox nation and the Ronald Reagan institute, i am peter robinson. 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