Transcripts For CSPAN3 Calvin 20240704

Welcome everybody, youre all. Everybody having a good time time. Hows the food . The drinks . Great. All right. Fantastic. Right to see it. I see a lot of smiling faces. Thats fantastic. This is historic event. Nothing like this has ever happened before when it comes to books. This book is based on technology. It is also based business. And at the same time, it is based on social. This type of book and ive seen plenty of them has never been written before, so thats a grand feat, right . Okay. Fantastic now, for those of you that i have not introduced myself to, my names tony smith and we can put a senior on the i helped create the internet, i helped create the laptop computer. I helped create online banking. You know it today also i heard that i also, i created the Software Architect profession which has rolled out through multiple Companies Worldwide technology and Non Technology companies. I am also the author of mentor one on one and approach for making mentors better mentors. That takes you to my next point and last point on me now sprinkle. Activism across all of that, starting from college. I have always challenged the system. I have always the Digital Divide since 1979, when i first learned what a computer is and what it does, i was trying to stop could could try to retire, could. Have an interesting conversation. There. We articulate very, very visionary person im not going to name yet. This was back in 2013 at that in time there was an a. I. Model called watson. Not sure if you remember our i guess what watson beat chess pros. Watson won in jeopardy this individual i we were having a conversation about that we just happened to be in the same city for Huge Customer event. And we said wonder if watson would have won in jeopardy if there had been more categories about people that look like us. Because when we were coming up through the through the industry. They were few and between us. So that brings us to this individual here. We go 2013. A year and a half ago, he says, tony, guess what, im going to write a book. I said, okay Calvin Watson going to be about it. And he said, a i bias. And at that point time, i thought to myself, i said, does he understand what hes getting into . Because there ramifications for stepping out like that i felt them. My family felt that the ramifications for doing this kind of thing but he was serious and then i kept on and he said if not me then who and he said not now then when i said oh. As look, here we go. He said, tony, he said, i want to help. Im supposed to be retired or somewhere else. I said, of course i know ive been you. You did. I cant tell you the number of times that i have had to help, but at the same time hes helped me. Hes definitely a person of vision. When we were when he was a Software Architect. He understood where java was going all of you that have cell phones its running as its operating system okay thats the basis so guess he went and learned it he became one of the best computer java programmers in the world, bar none. Hes also been active his community and he has to demonstrate that. Guess what, even though i may not be as demonstrative as you are going against, but i understand it and im doing it. I cant say enough okay. Also. One last thing. There are only a few people worldwide who can write a book like this because they dont have three values that i said. And believe me, just a few calvin was the right one that now i dont want to talk too long before i start getting the hook. But please enjoy the rest of the program and thanks for coming out. In this book calvin lawrence, a distinguished engineer intro grammar at one of the worlds most influential technologies, companies slowly pulls the covers on why Artificial Intelligence fears so many black people. For Technology Professionals who are grappling with the ethics of deploying Artificial Intelligence technologies, and for those who want to understand, the hidden impact of the software might be having this book is a must. Mr. Lawrence shares intimate and real life stories on how subconscious bias data drift and misrepresented data that further disenfranchize people of color. How a. I. Is not just impacting what students are being taught its impact on who actually admitted to the university. The choice from calculating simple elementary placement scores to ensuring whether a high students admitted to Harvard Law School or the home of the brave the land of the free by tis of thee, sweet land of liberty of thee i sing, land my fathers died, land of the pilgrims pride. From every mountainside let freedom ring, let freedom ring learn how predictable leasing and the mass surveillance of the unsuspected using facial and Voice Recognition systems is prevalent in law enforcement. Unintentional ad generating algorithms targeting those suspected on the rise in the book youll see where even lone officer says approved the roebuck and easily say not so fast denied. How long you stay in the mcdonalds line might depend on what the robot says about your Socio Economic status how miss justices of our past can be accelerated and scaled now would technology. Whiteness the whiteness how our authentic selves have seeped into our air design process. Learn the mindset of the past, have prevented todays technologies. Learn how profit and financial growth contributed to and even encouraged society to accept the outcomes of unfair purchase. This book from, Amazon Kindle and barnes noble go to purchase the audible version. Preorder and reserve your copy now from hitting your white sidecar. The book will be available. Amazon books. Amazon kindle, barnes noble and audible. A major winter one of the bruising trying to win republican primaries. Dangerous virus. Los angeles, california. Second most populous city in the united states, spread out over 468 square miles with nearly 4 million residents and fewer than 10,000 Police Officers sworn to protect and serve. Keeping order is a time job. We are playing probabilities and putting officers in the right place at the right time to make the most of their resources. Police captains like malinowski of the lapd and other Police Departments across, the country are turning to a new tactic to help stop crime before it happens. Its called predictive policing. It calculates for next 12 hours and the future. What areas have the highest probability of a crime occurring . And then what we do is we provide information to the officers and then the officers go out and they try to those crimes from occurring. The Predictive Policing Program used by the lapd come out of a police academy. Its based on research by a team of and social scientists at trying to predict where when crime is most likely to happen. I had these ideas that really Human Behavior is actually quite predictable and that you can study Human Behavior and understand where crime patterns come from in a very quantitative way. With funding from the National Foundation anthropology professor Jeff Brantingham teamed up with mathematics Andrea Bertozzi and others to analyze crime patterns and develop computer models to simulate criminal. Their crime prediction is based on the same algorithms used to predict earthquakes and aftershock. Once an event happens, it triggers another event. And so can apply this idea to gang crimes. You can apply it to burglary use. You can apply it to automobiles stuff. There are many types of activity for which this idea is very relevant. Thousands of pieces of crime data from the lapd, including locations times and dates of past crimes, are processed by the Software Program as predpol to calculate and predict the potential activity for an area at certain time. And those are delivered back to the Police Departments, a way that allows them to use it in time, fashion. Color code. Monitoring the area at roll call in the foothill area of, los angeles, where ucla tested the program in 2011. So today were going to head up the predictive policing. Officers receive maps showing the areas of predicted activity the next shift. Red boxes on the map highlight the hotspots areas measuring 500 feet by 500 feet. That will require extra patrols. So the officers know thats the highest probability area where they should be looking for a crime to be committed. And we ask them to get in and disrupt the crime from occurring or, deny the criminal the opportunity, commit the crime thats. Just what happened in 2011 in santa cruz, calif, where officers were patrolling a hotspot, putting them in the right place at the right time to stop an assault. We came here, did x patrols and stopped the crime, able to stop a crime in progress, walk out worse. We are helping Police Fight Crime by giving them the best state of the art. Mathematical models and algorithms. So take the data from yesterday and today. And figure out whats going to happen in the field with. Mathematics and social sciences. Police. A new weapon in their arsenal, helping not only to protect and serve, but also to predict a crime before it happens. Okay. Okay. While. The kind of world we live in now. Right now were going to have panel and id for randi slack to come up. Randy, our esteemed, is the publisher for Computer Science books and worldwide. Taylor francis. Next, id like to have ernie suggs come up. Ernie suggs is race cultural reporter for the ajc. Hes also an author. So be sure to talk with him about his book. And then, of course weve got. You. Just go visit your own work. Work. Were just about this book to keep them using all of mr. Mr. Calvin the lord. And rin. Would you just tell them little bit about yourself . Yeah. Hi, randi slack. And i am the publisher for Computer Science at taylor and francis. And its been a joy to work with on his book. I spent and ernie suggs. Good evening, everyone. My name is ernie suggs, a reporter of race and culture of the Atlanta Journal constitution, and i am also a author. I just published last year on year, this time the many lives of andrew young, which you find at your local bookstores on amazon and all those places that. And with that, ill turn it over to our moderator. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And this is a wonderful crowd of youve gathered here. So we have we have were were going to have a great conversation. So i want you guys to relax and have a good time. Were going to have a afterwards so were gonna talk for about 45 minutes but were going to have a good time and learn a lot, hopefully. So, calvin, i want to start you. Welcome. Well, welcome. This is your event, but first of all, you know, i just wrote my first book. How does it feel . You know, this is your first book. You know, just you have all these people coming out and just how do you how was that process for you and how do you feel about . What whats happening . I feel thankful. First of all, thankful that all my friends came out here with me on this. What i consider to be kind of a wonderful moment. So im i feel relieved, to be quite honest. Its been a long time. The book is taken a long time. Ive actually havent written a book like this. Ive written articles and pieces of books, but i have a deep appreciation and to you and others who have gone on this journey so relieved is the word that ought to fill in kind of comes to mind right now. So im going i want to talk to you and randy about the process of the book. The first question i want to ask is, you know, youre playing this wonderful video to kind of introduce us, kind of get us ready for this. And there are two things i notice in the videos. One is that a. I. Is everywhere. You have that being is everywhere. And the second is that queen ramana said a. I. Is going to kill us all. So its everywhere. But is going to kill us all. Should we be fearful this . No, i dont. I dont think so. I mean, im a huge fan of i mean, ive spent part of the last ten years or so building an app, much of kind of what you see. Ive had my hands on it. So i believed we just need to there need to be proper guardrails. They a. I. Is a fantastic tool, whether we like it or not. Everything we do is a like everything. Were not going to be able get around with it. And as big well get around from it. And this big business i Company Wants to do what a. I. Allows companies to be more efficient. They allow them to save money and do all things better. And they do things that they havent done before. So because of that, youll always it. But like the videos saying like talk about in a bowl, we just have to be conscious and conscientious of the fact that a. I. Can harm, if not properly got it. So thats my thats my position i stand by it. So i want to i want to talk about the book for first. You know, its interesting, the title of the book hidden in white sight how a. I. Empowers and systemic racism. How did that title come about . Thats thats a funny story because my family, were all kind tested. As i went back and forth on titles, that wasnt the first title. No, hidden. Hidden in like hidden white site came pretty quickly. But the second title was more the subtitle title was why a. I. The hell out of black folk and randy probably can talk to that one. That was the subtitle that i presented her with before i got to know. So it might be a question ask why, but its not. To be quite honest, i want the title to tell a story. I want it to be edgy. I wanted to sure that you know most corporations and most people. Know. How most people understand that a can be. I dont know anybody in Corporate America who doesnt . A to that fact. Right so thats a known fact. And i actually i think the difference between my respect and some other perspectives in corporate Corporate America is that most folk would say its bias of the data. I say that too. I say its bias because we live in a biased world. We live in a cultural bias. And because of that, when you have a lack of diversity in technology, many of those folk along the and we all know it does, not a lot of us. So when have a lack of diversity and we live in a cultural melting pot in the environment and obviously theres a chance that our technology will make. Wow thats the purpose of this meant to mimic our behavior. Right. And to make it more efficient. So if that is the case and we are we are biased people and we live in a biased world, and obviously bias will seep into our. And thats kind of what really that was my position and my perspective in the book. So when were listening to provocative titles, the one that was rejected and the one that was actually published was were you to publish a book and why did you publish it . Oh, absolutely not. Afraid. The the subtitle was a little bit we put me off a little bit in the beginning only because i wanted the book to be able to have a global reach. And i felt like i scaring the hell out black folk. So its very colloquial and its american, its very american. And we, we wanted to be able to reach a global audience. So that was and thats how i convinced him to change after of discussions. It wasnt an easy development. And everybody here know me and know im not easily convinced. So it took a minute to convince me of that. But glad im absolutely glad that i did do that. Yeah, but absolutely. We were not scared of publishing book. Actually, our Publishing Company Taylor Francis publishes a lot of social and books on systemic, so it fits into the scope of what we were doing. I think my main hesitation was wanting to make sure that i gave calvin the biggest, the best publishing opportunity to reach the biggest audience. And so i think our discussions around that were the main hesitation in the beginning. But because were primarily an academic publisher, but we do publish professional books and books that are for a general. So so we negotiated and we came to and im very glad. Im very glad did because i want to talk a little about said you mentioned social justice and how in your work and what youve done in publishing how does social justice aspect play in a how are these connected . Why are they important . Well, its really important because of bias issues. I and thats not talked about a lot and you can hear a lot technical we have a lot of technical books ai that talk about how to do ai how to work it with ai in business and different aspects. But theres not really any other book like calvins that really gets into the issues around systemic racism, bias and all of those responsible ai and all those issues. And the thing that i liked the most about calvins book is that he is a story teller first and foremost, and he interweave his stories of his own life and people that he actually knows and how ai has impacted them in a bad way, in a negative. And so that was Something Really appealed to me as being very so telling without giving away who done it. Give us a little bit about what the book about. Yeah. So the book really was meant to be quite honest for people of color. You know, initially it was meant to be a book of awareness. And thats why i tell stories. I told stories that people i know folk and communities would understand, like they understand banking. They understand how to go and get along. They they understand predictive policing. So i tell in the book about own story around predictive policing, how i basically was found one evening coming from work basically on the side of the street with a flat tied down in the city of atlanta found and ended up being a predictive policing zone. I was driving a fancy and pull it over and the question to me was okay this is obviously when you go into our neighborhoods, they are overpoliced and im not suggesting that thats a good thing or a bad thing, but i as a technologist, that those things dont happen by accident. I have algorithms. They are computer that are telling police to patrol when to patrol. So again, the book was initially for people of color. So it was meant be kind of an awareness. Let me tell you a story kind of thing. And then it kind of evolved to oc folk are like me who are designers who and technologies are the one that building it. So i needed to have a chapter talking to main topic to people like me and then it evolved even further. I kind of broke all of the literary rules because, you know, if youre writing a book, they say, hey, find an audience and write to that audience. And i kind of all over the place in the world. And i talked to Corporate America because Corporate America sponsors these apps, right . They they are theyre paying for the apps. And then i Start Talking to government officials and policy makers. So the kind of had different it has different audience from people of color to designers and developers to Corporate America to policy makers, government officials. Because i think we have a perspective is incumbent upon us to know about it. If we know about it and we can raise the flag like right. And incumbent upon designers, i say in the book, ive never a racist designer who write code on purpose. They just writing code based upon their personal experiences. I know and i say in the book, like i wrote lot of this code, im racist. I wasnt even thinking it. I wasnt even looking at it from a perspective of that. So i dont blame anybody. I think an awareness for all of us. So. So, you know, im a im a cultural im an english major. So all this new to me. So how specifically is a how does how specifically does a. I. Impose racism . How does it how does that manifest itself . I told us that i tell a story in the book and ill give it away just in the banking and the banking perspective. You know, typically all of us in here who have a for long before we evolved and we kind of know how to get along pretty much no one we dont get and then when we dont like if you got a credit score seven, eight, you know, pretty much good you got a good ratio, got a good job, you know, you kind of know three or four things and then documentation and you know, you got to document, you have to prove you knew you are who you say you are and you have what you have. So those four things, right, we of know that and thats the process, the human process that you have an underwriter, you have somebody thats funding it and a human key kind of get those four things. But an average adult can crunch thousands of inputs. So an adult rather than if an algorithm is making is saying decision that an underwriter would make going to think i can use more than four things right and the person who give me the money he wants me to use this is those things that cant because they want to make sure that i dont give a loan to somebody whos not going pay it back. So its a risk score. So algorithms, what we do in banking is that we create these risk scores. And the risk is traditionally based on old four things that we talked about with a. I. Can be based upon of things like an example is an extreme example, but it happens. I believe it happens. Is that if you have a fairly in living with you write your brother how your cousin is living with you and their felon by theyve done theyve gone to jail about bad but they have nothing to do with ability to pay back the law. We are the great i just live with that. Thats what happens in community. We bring in people we got big families well and anyway enough basically can take is data and say hey you have a Family Living you so your risk all goes down that night meaning that theres a chance that you might not pay back this loan because you bad areas you didnt do it got bad company so we wouldnt know about that but would they because its a black box you would not you would necessary know that because the bank is not going to necessarily tell you. Now im not suggesting that all banks do. Im saying i have the capacity or the ability to do that if misused right or misguided. And again, if youre in banking, you want lend people money like we do. We want to blame people money whos going to pay us back. Thats what they do in a more information they get and again, a has the ability to do in almost every industry that you they think are. I want to i want to dig into the ethics of this but but before that i want to get back to what you talk about predictive policing and i was covering the l. A. Police department when they started using compstat very seriously and they called corrupt leave what is wrong i guess my question if you look you know for those of you who live in you know were in buckhead and buckhead is, you know, a lot of stuff is going on in buckhead. I suppose on a lot of stuff goes on everywhere. So what is wrong with predict the police thing if it is in fact helping to fight crime . Yeah, i dont i dont think anything is wrong with it per say. Okay. Per se. Right. Because we want to live in safer neighborhoods, but we all want to live safer communities. But but i it is right. And i use this. So now i dont know whether they use this scenario in the book or not, but it something ive always thought about when youre driving the road or youre in your police are always in neighborhood as a beating as a vehicle to find a lot more of you than if theyre not. So its not just that people in other neighborhoods are not committing crimes. Its not that other people in the name neighborhoods arent speeding. But all the police are camped out in your neighborhood. Obviously theyre going to see more of you. Theyll catch more of us. So predictive policing in its core, right in its spaces. And theres nothing wrong with that. We built mean im probably going to be next week with a client who wasnt doing this im just suggesting as ive suggested throughout the book that nothing is wrong with any of this its great business is great opportunity more efficient. All im saying is that we should have an awareness when we these systems a lot of these of the box systems that we around for the police and im not to name any although in the book i do when im on camera i want but the reality of is these are just applications that they build and they go from year to year. They dont spend a whole lot of time to determine whether theres bias not and i will say this because think its important what makes up an application of bias. There are several things that it biased, but there are some things that will always making bias and that means you have misrepresented or underreported slanted data like which chinese algorithms to do what we want them to do. I and if you dont a representative model in the environment i think i use a jelly bean example the book where if i have a pool or a bag of jelly beans and theyre all red and all white, and i have five black jelly beans in the bag i closed a bag and i reach my hand. Its pretty obvious that its probably going to be a black one that i could go for. Thats how it works. We train with this data and if you dont help people that look us, fine. If im building an unhealthy app and youre taking cold Clinical Trial data and making that well, the be quiet this we dont black people dont participate in Clinical Trials that little thing called the tuskegee experiment kind of scared us from that thats just the reality of it right so if you data into an healthcare and youre pulling Clinical Trial then obviously its going to be its not going to necessarily represent us. Its nothing wrong with the idea of having air date cancer. Heck, we all want to do those kind of things, but we also want it to be yields responsibly and ethically. So that thats my position. Okay. I want to i want to ask both this question. You mentioned it, kelvin. What does ethical and responsible look like . And the result for me, its about trust. If we if we work with these use these every day, theyre part our daily lives. If we cant trust them to be ethical and responsible and if theyre actually hurting members of our community, you know, thats a big problem. But the thing i like the most about calvins is that he doesnt just talk about the problems. He talks about Actual Solutions not just saying this is something is bad, hes going to kill us all. Like he said. No, he says this is what this is the problem. These are the solutions. We can actually, you know, implement to solve these. And so thats thats really i think the key thing that appealed to me about calvins book. But yeah, i think me its about trust. You know, if you cant these systems, you know, if know that they have bias and you know, have issues, then something needs to be done to address that. Well all let you go. Yeah. For me, just as far as right word, but awareness i think this is really a problem of awareness as opposed to an attempt or problem. Right. Because we we build systems and we build technology and we know technology is necessary for the world to move forward about awareness. So at the people responsible, Artificial Intelligence for me is just the people are building it and people who are deploying are aware that it could be dangerous if they dont go to extra to do the things that they need to do. And sometimes theres a cost associated that i theres theres theres when in order to solve this problem sometimes is take money maybe it takes more Development Time it takes more so you cant necessarily it out they can just get it out there. You have to be conscious and cognitive of the fact that it could be harmful. So awareness from all people who are involved is, i think thats the key and i think you have to have more diversity at the table when youre developing systems because you talk about this a lot in the book right now. Theres not a lot of people of color at the table developing this system. So, you know, thats a key thing. So how do we get more of color at the table . I mean, some of these down certainly made you look in this audience here, a lot of in this audience are friends, mine. And we come from the technology world. Thats how we all met. And all give back. All of us. Everybody. This room whos technology, we were trained from the time we were small, growing in the industry to give back. So certainly hes found certainly getting more people, more people of color and data science. Why thats a big thing and having technology as a thing as opposed to just for us it was about right for me it was like i wanted to to technology because they say youre going to make more. But the reality of it is now is that you know it aint having more diversity at the table important and thats another thing but more than that i say this in the book right its not just having getting people of at the table. You got to get the right people color at the table. But the big thing like you, you got to get people at the table that is willing to stand up and willing to Say Something is wrong if youre one in 20 people and youre saying something and youre not willing to say, you might as well not be at the table. So thats my thought on that with. This being your first book and i know you know, first books take forever to write. You, was there a moment you probably had this idea for 20 years . Probably. Was there a moment in which you said, boom, im going to do this . And was there a spark that said, this is something i need to do right now . Yeah i think it was for me, it was a Health Care Essay that i mean, i had a tip epiphany after i had my healthcare, my heart issue. And it had a lot to do with me, to be quite honest. I dont think i would have written this book 25 years ago probably, wouldnt have written it five years ago. And like you said, always known and always wanted to speak out. But right, the book wasnt really in the plan and i still dont consider an author at all. But yeah, that was the epiphany that that was the spark made me say, hey, now is the time. And then i thought i, like tony said, if not now by when. So i wasnt. I just really wrote the first two chapters. And after i wrote the first two chapters, it just started flowing and i was going to selfpublish. That was my thing. I was going to selfpublish. I wasnt going to do. I really didnt when it really thinks that a publisher will to hear what i had to say because was going to be pretty much saying some things that i think about myself, really want to hear. So i was i was very thankful that, to be quite honest, after i the book kind of halfway done, i almost done. And then a couple of people that were basically introduced to randy or thought behind and we kind of moved down there. And at one point i had like four or five different publisher kind of vying, vying for the book. And then i actually again until randy didnt really slip tell and francis as a Publishing Company isolate that randy now thats just chill i mean after talking to her she seemed to be the type of person and i found out afterwards that it show she she is shes a genuine person but she she cares about this topic she really cares about this topic. So i selected her as a follow up to the Publishing Company and i kind of came out of the fire. If you ever do want to write a book of you working with the right editor is i think if you find editor that you can support, i dont know if you had the same experience but to support you and is passionate i think really makes a difference. So randy whats the reception. And did you have any pushback on this . We havent had any pushback as of yet. I havent heard any pushback except weve done some ads, facebook and some, you know, racist people, their facebook stuff, you know, so but beyond that, weve gotten really positive response reception, lots of press, positive press, actually, we i just got back from the uk today. I flew in today and i sat down with when i was in the uk with one of the leading uk journalists, tech journalists over there, and he wrote a really nice review of calvins book on this website. Did genomica . Yeah, yeah. So yeah. So the global outreach is starting to and and i think thats interesting because i, thats what i was hoping for in the beginning is this would be because this is not just an American Issue obviously thats i was going to ask you because you talked about how the title the original title was to lebanon to you thought and the global reach of this is is naturally going to be huge. Yes. So absolutely how you know, this is like like i said earlier, air is so is this an american that we need to get a hold of or is it something that all countries, nations have to kind of feel . No, i think this is definitely a global issue and to this journalist, the government in particular is very interested in this topic. And theres a lot of policy happening around ethics and bias. So, you know, i hope calvins book will start to influence. And actually as a publisher, we do lot of outreach. Were a british publisher primarily, even though we have a big american side, but we do a lot of policy outreach. And im hoping that calvin help us with some of that to policymakers in the uk and also in the us so to talk about that a little bit, i mean because i think thats one of the issues that people fearful of is that what is the government doing to kind of control this . What is the government doing to kind of regulate this and are you seeing anything . Yeah well, i mean, i think the key. Right, theres no specific against any of this. I mean, we have laws in the books around like mortgage, you know, discrimination, i guess, against police. But as relates to a guy. He has no laws. So, you know, congress have come out with your bill of rights. I actually proposed a bill of rights. For black folk and the so i mean, the now someone would look at what have and what i have in there. But the key for me is not the just the bill of rights but the policy enforcement. I think thats a key is having actual laws the books that actually it otherwise you know its going to be very very difficult for it to even if they come out with these proposals the bill of rights, if you will, its going to be very for it to stand if dont have legislation in place to enforce it. You mentioned alexa. I have to. Alexis. What, upstairs . One downstairs and i figure out how to change my alarm on it. But mentioned how its always listening to us its always listening to us. And i was on tik or or instagram the other day and i saw i was following a travel reporter who talked about how at the hartsville airport and i guess i think its 15 airports across the country where you have facial recognition you can just race through the line and i do that a lot of grace in line and 2 minutes basically and the comments were talking about how, you know this is you shouldnt do it because they got all your stuff and all this. They have everything and my thing is they already got everything. Yeah. So talk a little bit about just how its so pervasive that they basically its almost as if the train has already left the station. Yeah. They have everything. Yeah. No, absolutely. I agree. And be quite honest, its a good thing i know. I also want skip the line readily put my eyes in that Little Machine outlet and look at that. I want to get to the front of the line. The data, you know, this is data collection. And again, like these are all applications and they great. Its just that when you build you need to have representative data and you need to be considerate of who would buy it, how high. And i think sometimes get caught up in saying like folk like me and saying, okay, you dont like air . No, i love air. Ive been air for ever. Im going to stay in air. No, im just questioning whether or not or basically speaking my children of what i see in regards to the misrepresented data, you know, going back to alexa, i have this subtitle the book ill ill set as i sleep like i got that from my grandma my grandma and would always tell us that where people would continuously but theyre not really sleep theyre listening you like so you think alexa just fun just from the thought of it you know that when it when you say alexa go do something and it wakes up like had to be listening in order to wake up i wouldnt know the wake up like is listening to some keywords that you say. So you know it keeps in line and weve seen examples government officials when you do Something Real bad they go and go to apple and go to google say i want to look in that box i want to pull back and so you just know that these systems are always the question is this kind of like i tell my my my daughters all the time, like, you can all you want, you can social me you can do whatever you want send pictures out, but it doesnt go anywhere, right . Just because you delete it dont just assume because all it is is the flag. For those of us in program, we turn the flag on the data is the on air. You cant see data because we are in the flag to. But the data is still there. And if somebody wants to see it at some point they can. So its the same concept, right . Kind of a global mindset. And in regards to take these these are not bad things. Its just, you know, saying the cell phone is a bad thing. Maybe they did when they first came out. But none of us would do a cell phone today. So willing to incur the risk associated with it. So i think were about to go to q a. But i have one more overarching question. And youve touched this a little bit, but why are black people afraid of ai and why are black people specific only . Are we more afraid of it white or we are more afraid of the nation . So why are we specifically i guess thats this the book here . So why as well . Why is it us. Issues . Well, i mean, i would like to think that were not afraid of it any more so than we are of any technology. And certainly dont want us be afraid of it. Like thats not message, just nothing to fear per say. I think for us we we live this society. And i say in the book like whenever something could go wrong, like murphys law, like it goes wrong for people of color, like when it goes wrong, it goes wrong for other people, but for it goes terribly wrong. So in that in a sense right, its not a fear, but its a consciousness that we all have and that we should have like we should be conscious when we go to the bank and we get the nod when we think that we should have gotten approval. Thats the awareness that i want to call out. Its okay to go to loan officer and say no and why did i i get rejected. And many times the loan officer know because they didnt write code is not technical. So you can challenge the system you can say, hey, tell me what happened. Now this so that like so many times they dont what happened. But you can lease and weve seen i think that talk about it in the book in the example i use the book they still got the law they had to push back at the push back. So again, i go back to that awareness and like the thing i know about people of color when at once, we know something were not afraid to stand up for right. So for me, it was just my opportunity to play some awareness to a topic that im also familiar. Okay. So i think we have a rare opportunity to recognize just. So q and i and i always say to do this, but please just ask the question instead of, you know, a whole rigmarole. So, so any questions . Yes, sir ive got a question from the publisher that seems like radio is very inspirational from the publishers that how have have you found it difficult to reach in your hands with a little have you found your typical three step secrets . This information. Yes, yes. Very important because im going through a situation where, you know, someone tried to give me a that wasnt right. And i was like, look i know my credit score. So how have you all tried to reach its . Its difficult to reach the audience in general nowadays with books. They dont theyre not receptive. I mean, i shouldnt generalize. Theyre not as a receptive to books as maybe other forms of media. But yeah, we what my hope actually is id like this book to ultimately used in some courses. So were trying to target some hbcus maybe and other universities to try to get this as of the Computer Science curriculum ethics. And so that would be a great way for us to reach students, millennials and get the message out hopefully. So thats thats our goal. So yeah. A great idea of the questions. Oh yes, sir. Im sorry. I oh we have make great. My name is ted riley. I work, um, my Business Partners and here gordon fights. We both attended Tuskegee University and calvin, we had to stop, talk about three weeks ago when we were talking diversity in Clinical Trials and how the efficacy of the drugs dont really fix us. Were not in the Clinical Trial in the air and can speak to that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, i kind of alluded to earlier, right, so much of data that we get like we see we hes we we in flux. Im with data from wherever we can get it for fi and in Health Care Worldwide theres no better source for data than Clinical Trials because theyve been doing them for years and years, years and years. So so any idea behind them is that you go and see a model to predict an outcome or to recommend stopping any of the Clinical Trials that is being used. Dont look like us. Theres a good chance that the recommendation or prediction might not. Ill use the word might i . It might not be representative of the outcome that we expect or even that the Health Care Provider in many cases. Ill say again, i dont think the Health Care Providers per se is trying to do something bad or negative. They dont know what data looks like easier and more so than we do that, you just well what they know standardized help i mean so earlier you kind of alluded to that the developers were not to and all of that but my question is does this create a conflict for though as a developer creating thats writing the book but this is kind of what you do right so is there like a conflict or question how. Is the here . Its a great question. What im mean, absolutely. And i, i mean, its its a challenge for me to be quite honest for more for more than one reason, im not afraid. I am. I where scared about this topic. I dont see anything in the book thats not chill. And i dont say anything in the book. To be quite honest that others are not saying. Its just that the people who are saying it dont look like me, dont feel like me, and dont feel my pain and dont know my experience. So therefore i dont feel as though ive done anything wrong. But in regards to your question you know, absolutely. Its just, you know, it is a thought. Right. And again, i was 25 and i had kids in school and i was ten. I probably wouldnt have ruined it, but but right now im, not 25, double that. So for me, if you cant speak your chil at some point in your life, then when you do it. So to your point, it absolutely does. I mean, i dont know where this journey me my in regards to working i still working Corporate America i want to continue work in Corporate America right i still work around air still bill called. And again i think the key is for me is that nobody should be afraid. I say to those right you go out to linkedin you go out to any social media, you go to everybodys speaking on this topic. Every corporate leader is speaking out. And so if they can speak on and can i. Right. And i, i just speak on it a little bit differently than i. Yes, sir. So i also work in software. How are we approaching adoption . Because without user data, theres always going to be a bias because ais going away. And if black people avoid it because of their own cultural mind, your own business, dont that kind of stuff. How do we get adoption in the black community . Yeah, yeah. I think it goes back the awareness again, right . We talked about Clinical Trials, talk about things like jury pooling, right . You know, many times we dont want to serve on jury. Well, guess what . Sometimes that data gets poured into the algorithm. So it its the adoption comes from within us, right . Meaning that we have to be one of those jellybeans in the bag. I we have to be accountable. We have be counted. We cant run from it because like you said, its not going anywhere. Right. You know, its kind of like the thing is like there are certain things that happen in our community. I talk about it in the book, spent a lot of time in the book talking about our community because there are certain things that we just didnt like doing, certain things we ran away from, like on the jury. I its like, no, im not served on that jury. I dont want to do that right . So certain things that are culturally in flux in not communities, it finds itself now when im going to talk to a court system about predicting sentences and doing other pieces so we to your to your to your question. So i think we just need to be more accountable. And the adoption, my mind comes within the awareness like again, i think once we are aware, then it doesnt take us a long to understand like, okay, if you dont do it that way, then im going to be there kind of like that. Thats how i see the other yes, yes, yes hi, my names jennifer and im just a. Favorite calvin groupie hanging around them a little bit. But home. What i want to know is what went to the book. I skim the book a little bit and the first thing that came to me, i got got a little rage, got a lot militant in me and wanted to spark a whole Political Movement is that with your intentions to spark a Political Movement audience and if so are going to start with can we do that with the younger kids . Starting my sixth grade, seventh grade, yeah. We organize and energize and bring this to the forefront. Our young people maybe can go on with the ages. Im not sure what is this one of your plans in the future . Bring in young kids this spark of political, Political Climate movement along the willpower, the educational arena that we can put together like a teaching our kids how to do robotic training, how to do programing, how to do stem start with the kids do are enhanced, make it fun or bring it to a reality is that something in your book as one of these suggest not what Silly Solutions to the problem . Im not sure because i dont know the of it i dont know if youre getting that whole lot to say what do you. Yeah no i definitely no i, i think that you part of what you just said is, my thought im certainly i certainly dont want to start a political that wasnt that certainly wasnt the that wasnt the intent of the book. Again for it was more again of where aware this but you know like randy kind of mentioned earlier it is about diversity it is right diversity is probably the key this and and whether it that kind of manifests itself people or kids or going into certain song but also just a i impacts all of us here so diversity means that we we when we when talking to our clients like they are getting sample data were getting people from to a taxi driver im building apple for you know if, im building an uber app with taxi. Then the first thing were going to do is go talk to drivers. I if theres no tech diversity in the taxi driving industry, then im going to get a kind of a skewed view. And thats how we get information as technology as we all know it, right . We go and talk to people interviewed. We take that information we turn that information into data and that data goes into models thats just how it works so i know everyone here. Is it in in your field . Has it been difficult to get young black people, Young High School students interested in stem . Is that still an issue that we need to figure how to address . Yeah, i think so. Right. Think it still is right. I think social media have given them options. Maybe they did not have ten years ago. I mean, you had moment, moment, movement for for stem. And i think now our kids want to do so many other things and they dont understand the social consciousness of associated with this. And i in my mind, it actually this concept to it because the past technologies that weve done it was a little bit different like java and c and all those other programing languages that we as technologists, we know about it was totally different. Those languages just want learn type languages they want built to mimic Human Behavior. So therefore i now it is almost calls for us to be more socially conscious, right . It calls for that it causes for us it calls us to be more aware which again. Again, that was the whole purpose. The reason i wrote the book is really it was just an awareness. It was like me talking to friends like that that the book is written way, like thats why its technologists will read the book and probably hate it. I was like, well you didnt talk enough about this, so didnt go down deeper into do so like that wasnt the purpose of the book to be a technology book. If so it had been three times as big. They have of books and not perfect at that same size. I wanted it to be a smaller book. I wanted to be a storytelling book. And again, i want it to wanted the book to be a book of awareness. All right. Any other. Yes, maam. So the book, though, how can expand upon this book and you have an idea for a next. Yeah, well this sort of answer, jocelyn, is yes no. Right. But again, i even i still dont consider an author. I dont i just, you know, so somebody told me. But technology is, we know it changes so fast. Like, for instance, maybe, you know, i didnt even talk things like chat deep in the book, right . When gave randi the manuscript it was in like october november last year like you there wasnt even a thing i talk about it probably a not even a chapter i think i got a paragraph and for the whole book have been on that so im glad you asked that question because i actually wrote another bonus chapter that i wanted to introduce here and not in the book, but its on chat, jpt and actually talks about it in the context of this because said jpt, we all love it. I wont go record say i love it. I do i do but with that is scales soft has the propensity of some of these biases we talk about i you know because the whole concept behind chat jpt is that you get on curated data so fast as i could go out and just pull gigabytes of data off the internet in that train and model with that data and all know what it is, some crazy stuff out on the internet so we call it old large language model. So the idea behind it, to your question endorsement is that. I wouldnt say im to write another book, but theres surely another book to be written by somebody. This audience and the well. Let me let me. Thats one you dont want. You dont know if youre gonna write another book. But one of the things that i was very impressed with is this whole presentation with the video and everything about it. So this is a book obviously, but its obviously youre, youre working ways in which to reach people in different ways. Tell us about and why thats so important that i think is very important. Right, because we are multiple acetate people, right. We we rap in different mediums. So for me, social videos didnt want to i didnt want to do like Old Fashioned book event. I want to do like a barnes and noble, come in me, sit at a desk inside like that. That was my that wasnt my purpose. I maybe reanimated perspective. I like that that was the to. So i think were out of time and this has been a wonderful conversation rick albin i want you to close this out just. You know, what are the takeaway . Is this what you know. Now ill say thank you thank you for cspan thank you for obviously thank you for coming. I really appreciate that. A journey of constitution being in the house, being in the room. No representative than harvey. So i have say that absolutely so i mean, i think this is a very astute audience. Dont really have to tell them anything. I think theyve gotten to know information. I think theyre gone. Theres a call to action. There is a call to action that all of us have. And i dont have to even give it, i think is expected and is no what thank you very much. This has been a wonderful as a non we have the great pleasure of presenting a conversation with josh sapan. Josh saipan is a veteran media ec