Transcripts For CSPAN3 Todd 20240704

Of the Competitive Enterprise Institute. I want to welcome all of our viewers for another today im joined by todd myers, he is an expert in environmental policy, he is the author of a brandnew book out this week called time to think small, how nimble Environmental Technology can solve the planet biggest problem, it comes to us with more than two decades of policy experience. Hes a leader at the washington, the state of Washington Department of natural resources, he lives in the heart of the Cascade Mountains with more than 200,000 honeybees and is part of the recovery council. He works day today with our friends at the Washington Post the center where he is the environmental policy director. As a reminder, we want to get you involved in this conversation. For our friend joining live we encourage you to enter questions into the chat function. Those will be sorted and said to me where it will go to todd and you can talk about your ideas, your questions. For those of you who dont have that access, you can try to send an email to events dot org and well get them in the queue. For those of you watching on youtube or cspan book notes. Welcome back. We are very happy to have you. This entire conversation, as well as all of ceos programs are Available Online at cia dot org under the tab labeled event. Todd, welcome to the Competitive Enterprise Institute im happy to have you with us. I would like to kick off with what i hope is the easiest question for any book tour or any author, and that is to tell us about the book what catalyzed you to write it and who are you hoping to get to. Its nice to join you i really appreciate the work that you do. Ive been a fan and worked with your staff for a very long time. More than a decade. The thing i like about them is they are fighting that environmental policy and unfortunately, i think its the world of policy that environmental policy has become thats why i wrote my book because i worked in environmental policy for more than two decades. You mentioned the Washington State department of natural resources, forest health, spotted, owls all the big issues. And i got frustrated that what i saw happening with environmental policy is that so much of our policies have a patient politics making people feel good about themselves rather than the things that actually were most effective. So theres a lot of symbolic things that were done for the environment. I think that is why folks on the centerright are often frustrated and nervous about engaging on the environment because they are worried that environmental policy has become synonymous with Big Government. And we need to change. That in fact, what youre seeing every day, people on the centerright are surrounded by the environment. If you look at where the red parts of the map are, its where the nature is, its where the blue parts, tend to be more urban areas. So how do we express in policy the care that we have to be good stewards of the environment in a way that isnt just contributing to the government. That is, why my book when time to think small, its about small efforts rather than Big Government. Empowering people not politicians. What you see around the world is you give people the amount of technology to give people power to do things that are really effective for the environment. That are more about results than symbolism and i will give you a quick example. Whenever people talk about climate, change as if its the only environmental issue, when clearly its. Not one big issue that i think everybody agrees on is trash on the. Ocean ocean plastic, the desire to keep plastic out of the ocean. The United Nations signed an agreement earlier this. Year they are still trying to figure out what to do. Some states like Washington State have banned plastic bags, they hope that will help. Thats not really the problem. The problem is primarily in developing countries, and to a group called plastic bank has started hiring people in places like the philippines, this, ill egypt, to collect plastic and they show where theyve collected on their phone because they have a geolocation. A gps. And then they give it to plastic bank and they get paid on their phone. They might not have bank accounts. The plastic is recycled and sold to a c johnson. When you go to the store and buy windex bottle, say made with ocean bound plastic. None of this technology is particularly difficult. 93 of people in these countries have cell phones. But its a very low, tech simple small effort. They have collected more than three billion plastic bottles that would have washed into the ocean. More than 140 Million Pounds of plastic. More than governments are doing, just with the simple technologies. I think its fantastic example of how thinking small, small approaches in power technology, to do more than government approaches. There is a lot there. But lets see if we can set the stage because we skipped over the last 15 years. So the plastic example is illustrative and helpful for people, you give a little bit of history and maybe explain to our audience feed orbital protection, and therefore Environmental Policies that followed the natural progression. 100 years ago there was an upsurge in interest in preservation, about 50 years ago we focused on source point types of regulation and pollution. Thats where the big problems, are we look at those places, we create rules around them. Rule bound responses. So with plastic, we have plastic flowing into the ocean. Were not talking about how it gets there, whether its coming out of a dump or falling off a ship or whatnot. Were talking about the solution side, which is not big regulatory central command, answers. It is markets and voluntourism and connecting people through technology. Can you walk us through what the moving parts are here. Because weve got regulation of central regulators, weve got cleanup efforts that are small and personalized. It seems like we need to name all of the pieces. Yeah. Thats great. One of the main things that i hinted at, the people are concerned that environmentalism has become synonymous with Big Government solutions. And when he weighs were stuck in the 1970s with how we think about environmental problems. As you pointed, out the problems that we face in the 1970s with air and Water Pollution primarily or point sources. They were big smokestacks and figure out false. The tioga river catherine. Fire those sorts of things. And the targeting and installing those problems, governments actually were pretty good when there was a very limited number of sources and they could focus on those and have a really big impact. Now what we saw in the 1970s with the creation of the epa and those two laws was that it did actually make our air cleaner and make our water cleaner, because they can focus on a few sources. The problems today are very different, they are distributed. Theres lots of small sources. So, what we do today has to be different. You cant take my word for it you can actually take the word ads as i director of the epa. Sort of first employee thought of these laws. I say from my, bud i just read, you are the great call about ten years ago where said yesterday oscillations work well in yesterdays problem. The solutions we devised back in the 1970s are not likely to make up much of a dent in the mental problems we face today. So we have to change our minds that to deal with the types of problems and lots of little vests of ocean plastic. Lots of people using energy and having a small impact. Working on salmon and the little bit of rub or the going to water. Try to do the same kind of top down 1970s approach these problems youre not gonna have a. Facts and that effect is what were seeing with all of these, problems are not being solved. Thats why a lot of the people in the environmental left are turning to these sort of distributive Technology Based innovative solutions. There is still an instinct among many to return to. Governments but i really want to solve. Them providing an Innovative Technology with the answer, in the 1970s. Just in the, moment unpack for us and made the reference to geolocation and global phones and whatnot. When you are talking about information technology, its more than a supercomputer that fits in your pocket. Right . We are talking about hardware and software. And distribution. Hundreds of millions of people in power. Help us understand a little bit more. 93 people in developing countries have some kind of self on our smartphone. The ability of the technology was simply part of it. The Company Rocket was a big part of that as well. Just communicating collaborate with people immediately. In a way that did not exist before. To use the language on the transaction costs are really really low to collaborate. So you can do things only governments could do before. It is a smart thermostat. They use Artificial Intelligence to help you serve energy. Anyways you dont have to think about. In my electrical panel, we had a box called a sense monitor. And look to electoral wildes wires in my house and 1 million times a second, the electricity was coming into my house to determine what kind of appliances i was using. And then gives me the information. So i can make the sort of decisions. The fact that technology has been so made so easy to developing a so ubiquitous, not yourself owns but lots of other things, which has given us lots of new opportunities to solve problems and do things that only government could do ten years. Ago the transaction cost of collaboration or information was so high. It just was not available. And see if we can work through a couple more terms. As i read through the book last week in the last week i kept undermining in circling terms i thought i know what that means. But then that would come three or four faces not have a much deeper understanding. What is it science . Its been percolating around and magazine articles and two decades talking with a very real now. There are signs people talking about it now because its real. When you can do a lot of things in Citizen Science which is basically just a conversation of two things. We will provide the data that previously was not available. Just to make a tangible example. People who are easy bird and that is just an app where you win the birds that you have seen, what you saw them in when you saw them. All of that data, though, goes to cornell university. They are now able to use that data to determine your migratory patterns. And having that presentation. Science is much bigger than a third grader with a tin can in the backyard collecting water. Precipitation rates. Absolutely. In fact its funny you mention. That one of the best Citizens Science programs on the web is called sais starter. What we have a long list of Citizen Science programs. When we created a darling cavalier was doing Citizen Science programs for kids. I want to do that. I want to find ways to help out. So it expanded, and technology has allowed us to expand it. All but leopold has wonderful essay from 1943. The great conservationist of aaliyah. What you calls wildlife story. What he says he is like, amateurs how interesting the different animals they are learning about them. Then become experts in. Them they are not credentialed phds. They are just amateurs who are interested in it. In 1943 we didnt have technology. We have to show that science and struggled information in the way that we do now. Its not a new concept its just been made very powerful with these technologies. Simply putting birds and join us and tributes to scientific research. Lets stick with cornell. Im going to their web page over the years, i also have a library of bird calls. Not just see it on a map where birds dont pass through, or where they are found, populations. What is to keep the accuracy high . When they hire graduate students this in the mid to field with some hiking routes and a notebook. Counting on the graduate students being honest. In Northern Virginia where my backyard ice or a sopping way, it all goes into the database. What do we do about that sort of problem . Maybe not malicious but people make hers and they saw aware bird when they did not how is it accounted for. There are a variety of ways. When you mention bird calls one of the things the bird those now, when your breakeven actually press a button and you will record the burden identify the board for you. Which is really cool. Lets say you are certain that youve seen a penguin in order virginia. It knows where you are. Here are the birds that you could have possibly seen so first we simply said you cant see a penguin. It will tell. You it will give you that list. No, i saw a penguin. And you put it in. Cornell has millions and millions of bits of data. Which they collect. And, so among those millions of data as one sighting of a penguin. They know it is an anomaly. So, there are a variety of layers protecting that they can use by using this data. Both first by narrowing it down based on what they already now, but then about determining whether the pain which i think is anonymous. 200 people in northern region, all the sudden see a penguin. It either means that Climate Change is really done something strange. Or it means there to call locals who because opinion is. Listen unless they see those theyre going to say they have parameters to try to track thats down. You mentioned with the leopold article, a concept that i think is all around us. And people are aware of. We dont think hard about what so talk a little bit about gamification. I have been taking my kids hiking, sensibility backpacks. Their bodyyearold. And its dies off, i will tell you, at least in my household, in the early teens when they dont want to spend time alone with their father. And it came back for my oldest daughter when she got into your cashing so she started collecting badges for finding to your cashes. The badges on the tokens and the numbers, how does this all contribute to sciences post just being a distraction. So one of the challenges a easy burden other things like that is the people see a lot of birds where they live. Where they like to hike. Where there are pretty views. But in the middle of the forest are off the beaten path, they cannot have very many sidings. Causes hard to get there. So, there is just an amateur. Youre gonna stick by the road. Theres something called roadside bias. You validate in some places, very get another. Just like geo past really a thing called where you go out and you say, like when you say things in these areas and when you do sightings in those areas theyre gonna give you points. That you can get rewards like half insurance and prestige. Among your community, the question is voluntary, private association community. Thats. Right what happens, the cost of collaboration is now so low believe you are not part of a Burning Group youre still part of a community online. On neighbor. And if you cant score points, you can show you one of the top birds in Northern Virginia. Thats pretty cool. They respond to that. With fun little trunk. Its better to stop your basic Citizen Science data. Where people are going out and normal places. And giving the data that they made. There is one key thing, which. Because this is a key to gamification. On the chilly, ebert was built as a system where they would, say here as we get through and we need to go get a. Thats what they found is it is better to tell people, you do what you want. And work with them. Work with the people using the app. Rather than treating them just as graduate students going out into the field. And that becomes more effective. Rather than topdown bandaids is what makes neighbors really work. Those are some things im talking about when you help me out from the bottom up. I dont want to put words in your mouth and it may be bore words from your book but it seems to me what youre describing is programs that solve the problem of the citizen are of the consumer as opposed to just solving the problem of the regulator. The problem of the consumer might be that weve been keeping a list of all the birds theyve seen or that they might have trouble identifying aboard. Their attributes of the apps that helped them with their problem. Then he grows from there. It becomes useful or marketable in the community. Is that fair . Thats exactly right. There is a key to making environmental actions it was a intensest no. There was environmental policy if it is content on the next election if it is contingent on forcing people to regulations or other things to do what you want it may arrive off and say no were not gonna do that. Or it can be undone at the next election. My son is used to, say it, look ill help you see the birds you want to see. Im gonna help you save energy. Whether not you concerned about Climate Change at all those things are durable it doesnt matter what the Election Results are youre gonna keep saving energy and electricity because you want to pay less so that consumer focus is what makes environmental efforts, as a small level, durable for the long run. Rather than the political instability which goes back. Thats why i think it is better approach for the environment. Theyre relying on politicians to do the right thing. Rely on election outcomes. The policy applications. And this one for now. There is nongovernmental solution that we can read about in your book. The deals with migratory patterns. A bargain. A large and geo goes to farmers and says, we want habitats. But we dont want to have it that here around. We only wanted as the passing by. Could you talk a little bit about that program . The project . I think it is really illustrative of again solving a problem for the farmer. Or the landholder. Instead of just saying for a top down place you want access to the land and we dont want to use it for any other sources or any other activities. How did that work out . It is a very toasty approach. So using ebert data. The university now has millions of different information. They know very precisely where migratory birds are traveling. And what they were able to do in the Central Valley of california to say, okay, these are the plots of land where they pass over. If they could turn those arms into habitats and really help them along the way. Nature conservancy use that day, that went to those farmers and say january primary i want you to flood your field. Over many inches of water. Because it will improve the habitat in these were to say traveled. How much would it cost . They had a reverse option and the former, say if you pay me this i will do it. So, they went ahead and did that. They called it i want to explain for just a moment, or ask you to explain. Reverse auction means farmers not against each other necessarily. How much is valuable to me. So lets, a look. Its gonna cost me something to do that. I might lose a little bit of time and planting. But if you can pay me this amount of money will be worth my while. Nature conservancy said, great will do that. That habitat is valuable to a lot of people, because we know they have the certainty that habitat will be valuable. The farmers now have certainty that they will get revenue, and that is what their time. They have popup wetlands, some people refer to it as airbnb for birds. Then use it for just a very short period of time right on their migratory route. Nature conservancy pays for it. We have it for a short period of time. And then farmers later can go do what they want to deal. It is a cause but nation of the northeasternology. And arrangements were each site, heres a valuable is to me. There is bennett agreements made. And it was very successful as a result. Contrast that with a dangerous species act. Which uses a regulation to force people to do things. Which makes the bird or animal liability on their property. This makes the bird and animal assets. It is just a more powerful way to engage private landowners to help provide that habitat for whatever species youre trying to protect. I have a long list of questions for you, know first going from the audience, they get involved as a reminder to everyone else. You have, questions please use the function at the bottom of your screen. Labeled i will get those back into the conversation here. Our first question comes from abby. And she asked if you have any idea about how your strategies could assist in these efforts to reach the paris agreements 1. 5 degrees celsius target. Followup question which we can explore, what do you make of International Regimes like these . Lets start with the easier one. How can nimble Environmental Technology is a fact co2 emissions . I set aside a 1. 5degree target because people have been feisty over that. So i will just address the question of, how can these sorts of approaches reduce co2 emissions. Rapidly and effectively. Liberals thing is that there is an assumption of these questions with the Paris Climate Accord now hangs like that, that they are effective. I find it something out to be the case. You dont put the report recently basically saying were nowhere close to medium to integrate target. Let alone the 1. 5 degree target. So, countries are. Promise were gonna make these old. Many of them do not even have plans that are meeting those goals. A alone the actual implementation. Here in washington, states are governor has talked a lot about climate. Change is considered a climate leader. With every single one of our co2 targets. Jonas was to be going down over the last few years co2 missions im going up. The first thing we have to do is recognize that there are a lot of false promises not a false hopes in turning to governments that they can achieve these because a history is that you dont do it very well. We do it because we dont think there is an alternative, its the only post. And yet you talk about how you take cars off the road. Right . Yeah. But there are lots of cool things. Where we can apply technology. I mention that one. Theres a really cool Company Called that is in canada and that working with cities in the United States that is going to change is trying to change transit is not just small or the macro trends and what they call it is on demand micro transit. Rather than a normal Transit System that has a static right in the rams theyre allowing people to say okay here is where i am and heres where i need to be by this time. And it uses an algorithm to put in quite the best words on the fly so it knows where to pick up the people and get them to where they need to go. Not only is that more effective because people then have certainty they can get where they need to go but it is very effective at reducing gaseous and carbon emissions. Saving money from the transit agencies and leaving the castle because what happened with the old where it is that you would get long areas a long time period of time where it was picked up and had to go the route and on them and they simply say no theres nobody over here so we dont take up this off. They found it saved gas and cut co2 emissions and was more effective and the number of people who rode transit went up radically because they knew exactly what was going to go. Consumer friendly and appealing to this consumer with energy and reducing co2 emissions. It doesnt even have to be the big villain so can be very personal and in the uk there is a utility called up to his energy where their focus is getting people to move to Renewable Energy early specifically say we want people who are concerned about Climate Change one of the key ways they do that is a charge market rights and as the rates go up in the evening they charge higher rates and the rates goods and they try to lower rates and in fact there was even where theres so much wind energy in the you can actually charge negative rates in the middle of the night. And ask people to use electricity. The beauty of that is what they do is to give people tools to have everything outside of the high cost periods. Those periods of time when they typically have to turn on natural gas and coal and things like that, was the most carbon intensive. You can simply say instead of washing their clothes during peak hours, which is also the most expensive events carbon intensive, wash it 11 00 last night when it is less expensive and you are using more renewables. Now, again, you do not have to worry about Climate Change at all. To find attractive because youre going to stave off electricity. Those are the sorts of things that i think can be more effective overtime. With a small incremental. Making it available to everyone to reduce our co2 emissions. I meet whatever target we determine is appropriate rather than just relying on politicians he hopes they will meet the targets which history says they rarely do. There is a further example that i think would be worth explaining here. You know that in the late 1970s president carter went on television encourage people to wear a sweater. Now we can use the phone. To program an a. I. System in the air system will help us decide when to turn the thermostat up or down. Sometimes we want to preheat or preschool the building. Given the external forces. If someone is going to come during my stay, so were gonna want to cool it down. People want to pull the house down earlier in the day. How does all of that Technology Interact with daytoday life . You want to use this in your house for electricity. Are you getting paying to ten times a day on your phone that you need to adjust things . How convenient are inconvenience is this if i am not and ultra passionate penny pincher savoring it comes to my electric bill . I am, but again the people i live with our teenagers. So i dont win this battle. What does it look like from the consumer side . It can be, that right. It cant be that you are getting notifications ten times a day. We will simply turn them off and they want to use them and you need help. To find ways to stay electricity without having to be on the president s. The first thing is that you need to have a sense of what it costs us. If i ask people, what are the kilowatt hour costs, they dont know the kilowatt hour is. And they certainly dont know what it costs. If i ask you what a gallon of gas costs, everybody can tell you instantly what a gallon of gas costs. Because it is everywhere. The first thing that technology does is provide you a sense of, look, here is how much money you are spending by keeping lights on doing this or that. Which they dont have. Now the fact is this is the one you refer to which is how do you deal with that in a way way that is unobtrusive . This is not pressing on you. As one official intelligence does. It says look, i know that Artificial Intelligence would not be making sentence. I know that when a rate is high, when youre in the house, and how to make you save money, the other thing is it is voluntary. It is not imposed. I tell the story, and theyre all these people in the audience that do not want a smart thermostat, knowing when im in and out of the house. And controlling my thermostat. I say great, you dont have to do it. The tradeoff choice is yours. To make. Whereas with topdown policies, those sort of forces are made by someone else, and so i think that is why people on the center rise can really embrace these sorts of things because it allows them to save money and be efficient and let Market Forces were. Without being imposed, and they can say not comfortable with this. But i am comfortable. This and make their own choices. Let me try to unpack for just a moment. Weve used back and forth here, i have the benefits unlike most of our audience of having read the book. But, we keep talking about Artificial Intelligence. It is it fair we were to substitute, really really powerful pattern recognition, instead of something that is a little bit mystical and scary in a little bit like how 2000 . That is exactly right. I dont want how 2000 in my house. But something as simple as on the nest, if it is connected to your phone, you can do that. Then when youre out of the house you can say oh, you heard of the house. You dont need the house. You would have the house of 53 or Something Like that. And save electricity that way. Its as simple as that. In other, places it is. It is patterned nation. Oh, i know this news we get home about now, you want to hear. Really cool things that we can do on top of that. Lets it know is at 5 00 youre coming home. But that oclock race start to go up. What another Smart Thermostats will do is theyll precondition there cant. As three and 4 00 theyll get your house up to temperature. Or even slightly above temperature. When rates are low. Knowing that your house will be able to maintain that summit or simply by holding the temperature with the insulation. During the period of time when rates are high. You are still comfortable, still have the temperature that you want, but youve done in a way that reduces your costs. Not because you have to think about it but because a pattern recognition, understood that it helped you become comfortable the lower cost. Lets explore the incentives here. For just a moment. And for a moment lets get aside the incentives of government regulators. Our state utility commissions and lawmakers and whatnot. Utilities, when might think, want me to keep my house at the last possible moment when the rates are the highest. Right . Thats where theyre going to hit their marginal revenue. Marginal profit. What incentives do the chilies have to encourage these sorts of Smart Technologies . Whether it be for water or electricity or other aspects. What you are talking about. In some cases utilities where there is a regulated monopoly, there is just attention. What regulators do is i, say oh you have to prove that you have helped consumers say and you have to provide rebates for Energy Efficient water and things like that. So it is mandatory where there is a regulator monopoly. Whether or not regulated monopolies like in the uk or texas or other places, you see different Business Models. But are aligned with these technologies. So for instance, there is a utility in texas where you pay them and what they do is they provide you with electricity that is reliable operatives upon them to try to find you reliable electricity that is the lowest cost. And what you want for noble energy with things like that they can provide that. There are incentive is to make you and make it a flat seed and theyre very progress over helping you find technologies like nemesis other things like that. To reduce your costs. In some cases you need a different business model. The incentives have to be different buts technology as made those Business Models possible. And they do exist in places like texas and the uk and elsewhere we are starting to see the. But which align with Environmental Concerns. What would be the next step . How would we adapt these practices . We talk about the Business Practices trying to solve the problem of the consumer, making them happy. When is the next step for evolving the role of the regulator . When i think that we need to fewer authorities, sent to central regulators at that point. How does that change. Where is the regulatory state in this mix and match of Citizens Science and evolving technologies to address Environmental Concerns . The question, is how you get from here to there. It is a difficult question. Right . But, i think the again you can make it incrementally. And what you find is that when people are given a little bit of power, a little bit more control, they dont want to give it back. The regulators try to claw back but they start to put pressure on regulators to give them more options. Some of my favorite examples are seattle. Im in Washington State. Seattle has a majority so the council. So about eight years ago, they put a hard cap on the number of uber and lyft drivers that could be in the city. Two weeks later, there were so many people in the council chambers, uber drivers and riders and others, that they immediately rescinded it and gave an and limit the mass of war and left. Now, even in seattle where the council of socialist in the minds it was very far left, they had to respond to people who had been given more power and control and were given more choices. And so that i think is the power of these technologies. It is very hard to see how regulators respond. Theyre gonna want to try to keep their power. When you give people power and options, they want to keep that and theyll put pressure on regulators to provide more of those things. So there is no Straight Path but the only path that is fully possible is if you give people the power and they exercise a, when you see there they are. I am in favor of creating a reward about any legislature that puts regularly to mush commissions a business. I think we need to align there. Lighting afoul symmetrical concerns with that. When we searched gears. But even bounty, but anyway. Let me switch gears for just a second. We have not talked as much about the preservation. But there is a wonderful anecdote that i think sets the imagination running and i was hoping you can tell us about turtles an international poaching rates. How does that unfold and why does that matter and what are the implications for other environmental questions . So sea turtles across the globe are threatened and endangered. One of the biggest problems is poaching of turtle eggs. Turtle eggs, people eat them. They are delicacy. In many cases they are not for subsistence. But they are a bar snack. But they are valuable. And poaching a clutch of turtle eggs can be very valuable for people especially in places like nicaragua so when turtles come in they dig a hole and they lay their eggs and the poachers grab those eggs and then well style them so it is a Wonderful Group called popup pacifica that works in Central America and they have with the cultural range was to go to the poachers. They look at the impact that youre having and they say, yes i understand. But i have to feed my family. So they actually know the poachers. What they were interested in is who is paying prochoice. Where the networks . Elizabeth we need to get to. And so they have relations and we are watching breaking bad about tracking. Tracking a shipment. Its what we can do a tracker. So they created this. It was all private, right . Privatization with the ngo. Okay. This is 100 with 1000 people this is not gio with a limited number of people in a limited number of total rangers working on the beaches and the way the technology was a way they could multiply the power of their efforts because they do not have 1000 people. They create a small turtle egg and they actually pointed it in a three with a 3d printer and made it feel like a turtle eggs what was sort of soft. Unable to tracker inside that could be tracked by a cell phone. So the purposes that you could see it go from one place to another. So they actually had a woman who was getting a ph. D. Testing costa rica. And they put these internal clutches her name is helen veasey i talk about her. She was putting all these eggs and and there were no blocks. Finally on the last night she said she almost did not go out. One of the eggs was poached. And shes achieved felt funny about that pushing the turtle act allowed her to test the technology and what they found was that the eggplant all the way across costa rica and was sold in the back alley of the Grocery Store and that was taken out into neighborhoods to be sold. And they were able to see exactly where the poaching rang and how it works but that small simple Technology Based on a 3d printer just with technology that was available basically everywhere, magnifies the power to understand sharing and fights to like poaching. It has been used in the caribbean. And others have talked about it without using for different types of potion. This is the logical extension to me of private conservation fan. With the overlay, excuse me, the over the application of information technology. Through the printing and your location of the falls i get set for. Why is it that regulator, i can imagine a scenario where the epa brought down a proposal to put something inside and in turtles nest. They would have a connection. They way send out troops to arrest me before i even saw down to the beach. Why is that regulars cannot adapt to the store even when there is proof of concept . What is standing in the way there . And right things. One thing is that these technologies are developing in many countries where the government is simply not an option and government is the enemy. In fact, governments put troops in nicaragua, or didnt put to troops, with ak47s to stop poachers. What happened is they just got robbed. The folks up the chain and their actions away complicit with the poaching because they have been paid off. One of the lines i have in my book is that small technologies, more powerful than ak47. People the ak47s are going to know and so thats part of the entrance, is instead of just focusing on at the u. S. And developing countries you can see a lot of these technologies are substituting either for government or the lack of government ability for government corruption. In the United States and think we have to be more creative about these things. Having worked in government agencies. The people who work there are convinced that what theyre doing is the right thing. They do many good things. But government is not innovative. Government moves very slowly. Technology moves very fast, and they probably governmental problem is often moving very fast. So theres just a mindset change, and the very first thing that has to happen is a mindset change. Do you recognize what these tools are available. Like in the case of seattle, permission with innovation comes in the entire environment scruples to keep up. So one of the reasons where this book is just to get people thinking about Environmental Solutions in a different way. So we can find the answers to regulatory problems. The regulars not to say, no were not gonna change. Were doing the same old way. Or in the try some of these new things to see how they can help. I think it is an effort to change those regulations have to start with the recognition of these alternative approaches which are sometimes challenging. Early, on we talk about the foundational federal laws. Here in america. To do a species and to deal with pollution. Two areas of environmental regulation and olive activity and a lot of regulatory engagement with the private sector in the way we live our lives is a third area and then if you could explore for us where one of these technologies, or a lot of talk about new technologies coming on line that could help with safety regulations. Water comes to mind when it comes to environmental safety. Im sure there are other examples. Is there an example that you like to share about regulating towards vapor environments . And what we can learn from technologies now to apply them . One of the examples i gave in my book about this very area and water safety is a flinch father crisis. We just saw a situation in mississippi, washington d. C. Weve had. Water helped problems. In the flint water crisis, the government they trained the source of the water which caused a lot of other things reaching into the water inmates they want to rebrand healthy. What is on that situation is about the states and michigan and the epa are very slow. Very slow to respond and people were literally holding bottles of water that they got from their top that was brown. So the government has a states and the epa was saying, were looking into. It we think its so big. The upper dealing with it every day. The most dramatic moment for me is the pair was talking once they recognize there was a problem, thats a myth we can buy fine filters for both. They have a pot of money that wasnt designed for that but they said maybe we can justify it. There was an email in the regional ethiopias that said we can use it for this but it would be unusual and the quote was im not sure flint is the kind of community we want but for those who think the epa is always out there to help them then you should recognize it influenced by failed bad lay. Those are the sorts of failures that they do not want to know clickable eagle risk for the community and people were suffering. But there were obviously technologies and filters in other things like that in monitors which could sure other problems. On top the problem was initially identified not by government, but by researchers who fought. So all of those small private technologies, they detected. This ultimately what could have solved it. And of course, while the water was being changed back the ball the water came in and put the cherry on top. They said, what about his policy bottles that were used . There was actually a group thats crowd funded in plant that took those plastic bottles and turned them into glasses. Yeah lucas using crowdfunding of innovation that with the environmental problems of a plastic bottle. Your solution comes to my manufacturing input, right . Its a good example of government of failure and innovative Environmental Solutions. So throughout the hour here we have been talking about these technologies. Combined with white distribution. Many people having access to them. Through a software and hardware and through their phones or whatever it would be. And it is helping collect information. It is helping aggregate information. Its helping analyze information. Thats a soft side of it. And i are talking about there is a monitoring function for ongoing activities. This is where the safety kicks in. All of this sounds very familiar to anybody who has studied economics. But i think what you are telling me, i will ask you to reiterate before we get to our next question, and these are all normal things in the marketplace. Right . If i go out to sell our data the lemonade stands, these are the sorts of things im thinking about. Its not necessarily a normal thing for a regulator to be thinking about Information Collection and aggregation analysis and monitoring. They are thinking about legal analysis. Theyre thinking about rules. Theyre things of that sort. Is that fair . Or my being unfair . Am i wearing ideological blinder there . Well, i think that there is obviously governmentesque like information. But one government collects information it uses information to try to make decisions or figure out how to achieve the goals it wants. There are two aspects of. It i think there is legitimate aspect of where there is collecting information about a better decision. Im not in our guest. Despite the fact they live near seattle. I dont think there is no role for government. But i do want Public Policy people to have the information necessary to make better decisions. Im making mistakes i want to make that clear. So what Information Collection is valuable. Some of the Information Collection is about how can we manage people in the direction that we want them to go. Its not their choice. And that i think, they have a lot of information. We dont. In the sense sometimes have less information about themselves. Then the government has about them. I want to change that power imbalance. That information imbalance. To give people the information so that they can make their own choices. Rather than government having the majority or even the monopoly of the information. This might speak right into our last question from the audience. Roe asked about nests and other similar products. Specifically with nasa and the products of google. Google is in the business of data capture. And they make skills based on that business. There was a lot of consumer just frost related to privacy risks associated with those technologies. This brings us to the question, how you of that marginal concern when it is not sure you want the technology in their house . Or do we think that perhaps this is just inevitable conflict that you dont want all of your data flowing out of the house, this is just not going to work for you. I think there is two answers to that. First i will say i am a technology geek. And i love a semi public life. So i am less worried about these things than others. And i recognize that my privacy, but there is data that companies have that way to definitely make other people uncomfortable. Which is why it has to be voluntary which is why there has to be a consumer focus. And part of that consumer focus is saying we are going to respect your privacy. We are not gonna sell your day. That were not in these and ways you dont want. And monitoring that in determining whether thats whether the live up to that is a challenge sometimes. But google has a reputation because people are frustrated with the way that they use that. And that has become, i think, a challenge for their business model. If you dont want to nut thermostat, you dont want to sense monitoring your house like i have. Then, you have that choice. Thats great. With so many government programs, you dont have that choice. Which is my second answer, which is, there was always going to be a tradeoff. One of the things i see from time to time articles about when there was an Energy Crisis in california, that people, there must, rather radically turned down two degrees or turned up two degrees, depending on the weather. And people have the business is very intrusive. How could you reach into my house and turn the thermostat off . I, agree and what is interesting is that many of these cases people actually signed up for it. But did not realize. It which gets to monitoring issues. But the alternative is that governments simply turn your lights out. If there is a blackout, they can do. That and so yes i dont government others coming reaching into my house forcing me to turn down my thermostat however much. Our limits with electricity. But they can already do that and i would rather a surgical approach to the approach government already has. In some ways there is no perfect answer. There was no have to choose. Pick your poison. They actual thermostats and awards save you money for doing. That even if it is untrue. So it is by the government simply coming over to turn your lights off, which in california theyre facing more frequently because of that rules. Were gonna have to start the wrap up process. I have a couple questions for you, very quickly. Before we get to the administrative work. I want to remind you at least share with the audience one point that i very much hope to talk about. My favorite economist is underrated and underappreciated is a great deal please check out the book. Chad myers, time to think small. You solve the biggest problems. Before we leave and using for the afternoon, tanya, a quick question. Anything you must want to make sure the audience heard . Because were working on now, what are you so excited about . Weve covered a lot. I think the message i just want to reiterate is that conservative people on the center rights, who care about the environments every day in their lives, a hunters, they go fishing and they go hiking. They live around the environments. They see the environment as a policy issue in that comfortable. Because theyre worried of the implications. But these sorts of options allowing to reduce to integrate on the policy Environmental Solutions in a way that fits our values and also crossed party lines. When you the stories of my book and forward are no moving from wildlife which is a project wildlife fund. There is a lot of agreement on what could solve environmental problems using these tools. So i just want to encourage people on the right to care about the environment to engage on these things. Were coming up on thanksgiving and theres articles on how to deal with their uncle and your crazy uncle all about the environment and people like me. And i hope that my book will give people some tools and answers and you can give its your favorite College Student to say look, heres a better way to solve these problems that if you are effective. And using the same goals that you both want. One of the things i talk about is having confidence with the environment. With the solutions that. Where and so many other areas also worked for the environment. We will not be part of this discussion. Go ahead. Lets make sure you tell people what youre working at the washington policy center. We worked primarily on Washington State is. She is a lot of things have started washingtons day. Spread to the rest of the country. I steadfastness to live in washington and sometimes, there is no better place to be on the front lines especially in environmental policy. So in washington policy dot org, thats where i. Right you can find me on twitter. As w a policy green. You can see whats happening here, before it reaches the rest of the country. I want to thank you very much. I remind everyone that if you know someone, you know environmentalists. They do not have to be a hike or somebody that goes out on the sea or a hunter. Anyone that cares about clean our clean water in the world around us is a person which will call environmentalists and many of them by themselves politically put themselves in the center or on the right. Since 1979 a partnership with the cable industry cspan has provideds complete coverage of the halls of congress from the house and Senate Floors to congressional hearings and party briefings and ready meetings. 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