Transcripts For CSPAN3 Natasha 20240704

My name is . Carla thorsen. Im the Vice President for programs at the Commonwealth Club. And i want to welcome all to this evening to talk about muppets and moscow bringing sesame street to Russian Television and into homes in russia in the 1990s. I had the privilege of being in during this time as well. And it was a really heady time. A lot of things seemed possible. And so the fact that sesame street came to russian and to russian families is really interesting and exciting story. So im glad youre all here tonight to learn about it. Before we get started, id like to ask everybody to take a moment and please turn off anything that might be bring play music so that we disturb the program. And i also want to thank everyone for joining us here tonight in person and thank everyone who is also joining us online on tonight watching livestream. We do want to hear from you. So during the program please feel free to write your questions on cards that youll find on your chairs and if watching online you can also ask questions using the youtube chat and well be able to pick up those questions and share them with our moderator tonight. So id like to introduce our to wonderful guests and. Our first guest is the moderator, lesley dixon. And lesley, actually a member of the Commonwealth Club and shes also a resident here in the bay area in San Francisco proper, a and were delighted to have her come on stage tonight. The first time. And i want to tell you little bit about her. Shes a screenwriter and Film Producer with a really long list of stream film screenplay credits that youll all probably recognize it includes things like mrs. Doubtfire, the thomas crown affair, hairspray and overboard just name a few. I think ive seen of those. And so leslie is going to moderate tonight and were delighted to have her do that joining her is our featured guest, nancy Natasha Rogoff and natasha is an Award Winning American Television producer, filmmaker and journalist whos produced Television Shows and documentaries in Russia Ukraine and the former soviet union, cbs, nbc, abc and pbs. So without further ado, please join me in welcoming and natasha to the stage. Parliament. Everybody hear me . Oh yes, you can. Hi everybody. Im going to resort to some notes for my questions when im an interview subject that i can blather extra contemporaneously for hours, but not necessarily the moderator. So id like to welcome you to the Commonwealth Club, which today has endangered classy image by, actually asking a Hollywood Comedy to moderator of complex and very tense geopolitical issues. Wish me luck and im very humbled to. Welcome, natasha. Lance rogoff who i happen to know personally to talk about her new book, muppets in moscow unexpected, crazy, true story of making sesame street in russia. And i found this book to be im sorry for the superlatives embarrass you, natasha, but it is entertaining, scary in places very darkly. Funny, romantic and really uplifting. When it demonstrates the artistry and the resilience, the russian people. And it also gives you a peek behind the curtain, the iron curtain, maybe at a in russian history that is sadly and its replaced now by authoritarian ism. So the mission and of her parent sesame Street Company was really very altruistic it was to educate of excuses. Our children now russian incursion, cursing, honesty, humor, kindness and of racial tolerance. What could go wrong . Okay, so thank you, natasha, for joining us today. And here is my first question. You are student and filmmaker in the eighties in the pre collapse ussr. Tell us how that came to be. Well, first i want to thank you for that. Oh really . Introduction. I meant word of it. You know, its awful when you to read your friends book and you dont like it. I loved this book honestly. And thanks much to the Commonwealth Club and for everybody tonight for coming. Also when, sesame street tapped me produce the original production of the iconic american show in russia. It was really an unprecedented time and the soviet union had just a few years earlier and this is one seventh of the worlds surface so huge massive territory and included central asia ukraine, armenia, georgia. And it was really a period incredible hope, excitement, but pain and humiliation russian because they were a superpower and confusion, i would imagine, about who they are now and what to hold on to and what to let go of. Nobody had any idea what the future would bring and, especially for their children . Yeah. Okay. So when talk about how you became fluent in russia and how you. Studied there first because it seems like that you for being the kind of person they have thought about to give this job to. You werent just some hollywood producer that were dropped cold into this environment. You knew your way around. So you thought i mean, i thought i was the last person that should be doing this production. Why . Because i had no childrens television. Oh, theres that. And i. I had spent years in the soviet union previously. So spoke russian, having worked for, you know, Television News and, making really serious document. And you fluent, right . I was fluent in russian yeah. And then these two sesame street executives showed up at a screening of documentary which was called russia for sale the rough road to capitalism and i had just come after embedding myself with a fascist communists who want to see the soviet empire fail and they wanted to retain power. And so these muppet guys come up to me and theyre like, would you help bring sesame street to russia . And i said, you know, did you guys just watch my film i just, i was completely confused. And then they just said, you, this was a wonderful guy, gary knell, who said, you cant come on, come down to the headquarters. You know, nobody. No, to elmo. Well, you didnt did you . So id like you to set the stage for us because when you were there before it was the ussr. Like you say and and humorless, and here you are about to bring this sparkling childrens program. What was different when you went back in, you know, after you got the job . What, what . What did you walk into culturally culturally . It was still very similar because it really had only been two years since the soviet collapsed. So, you know, it wasnt that from what it had been, they hadnt shaken off the hangover. They hadnt shaken off years of communism overnight, although you would think that, you know, if you looked at this project in particular was funding for was spearheaded by biden then senator biden. And so you know the the west was just evangelical about the collapse of communism and and they thought that was it. It was all going to be good. Now, we we were somewhat naive about you, how long it would take, or if you know at all possible for russia to change. Now were, speaking of that naivete, that kind of leads into the next thing the henson company, which is also sesame street. And they are lovely people. Both my husband and i have worked for them and theyre known for their cultural nuances when they do. They had previously done a number of foreign sesame streets and they didnt usually go in thinking they were just going to xerox what theyd been doing in america. And in your book, it speaks about they would really look at the history and and music and costumes and colors of these various places. And they a really good reputation for being sensitive to those things. And yet when got there, it seemed like russia was particularly insurmountable in this area. So if you tell me like, was it western arrogance, everybody just thought it would be a cakewalk or was there more naivete that that sets the stage for your unbelievable herculean struggle to get this done . Well, i mean, sesame has International Coproductions all over the world. And they did then to. And as you said, Henson Henson Company Built the puppets for those international productions. And each of those productions ideally were supposed to reflect the values and culture of the Different Countries. So, for instance in in, you know, every sesame street coproduction has a neighborhood and all the neighborhoods looked different. So in south africa, its a marketplace its in norway, its train station, their neighborhood in the u. S. , its urban environment. That is the idea for that was basically so when you know we went to teach to create the russian production we used the same model that sesame street had used in all the Different Countries successfully correct. They didnt get the amount of pushback that you were about to walk into. No, no. This was probably the first one of the first productions. I think that most of their productions were in europe or in mexico. I had also worked and trained. I did the russian production. But but the challenges in this production were enormous. The cultural clashes you know, we we faced i know i know were going to talk about this at some point, but we tremendous violence, you know in the with our our sponsor our first sponsor of the show his car blown up and. Well get to that. Ill get to that. Okay. Well about it. But but in terms the culture the you know there were many areas that came up during the curriculum seminar which is a three day workshop where we bring. Child educators from over the former soviet union and the Creative Team. And at this meeting, you know, we are trying to decide what are we going to teach children of the postcommunist era, what values, what what scenarios are we going to write . You know, how do we how will muppets model new ideas . So when we did that, the, you know, for instance, like i raised my hand and i said we were in this discussion and i said, what about a scenario where where children would have run a stand and . You know, the reaction to that was just horror, you know, how how they and they explained said, you know, this is this would be shameful all to have children selling things on the streets. You know, the only that sold things intercom pianism on the street were criminals because independent was illegal making a profit was illegal. Wow. Okay. You also got about whether they needed muppets at all in russia. Yeah, we had the i mean, we nearly had i think an International Crisis over the muppets and the the the russians. I would i say russians, but we had, you know russians, ukrainians, armenians, everybody but the Creative Team really they didnt like the the the hensons soft foam fuzzy. Yes and when we first proposed the series the head writer said well we want to use our own muppets we have a revered tradition dating back to the 16th century of puppetry and okay i have to stop you there for a second so their was if it was good for catherine the great its good enough my four year old oh god and i think some their Actual National nationally known puppets that had been on television for probably something you wanted to pursue. Can you talk that a little bit . Yeah, they were. These puppets. No, no. The first, if not scary. Yeah. The first time. You know, as as they were arguing in favor of their own muppets. So they had me meet with their chief puppet designer and he walks in with two sacks and he pulls out these puppets, and he, you know holding them up. And one puppet says to the other puppet, im going to kill you, you know, and this is all this is in russian. And im sitting here thinking, you know, this puppet on puppet violence is not for sesame street. Like, you know, and that and and the characters had like they were wooden and they had really cruel expressions. So i thought this just, you know, were looking for something very different, something completely well, there was a lot of centuries of being a howling bummer. So i that that just reflected that wasnt one of them. A cannibal. Oh yeah. Well they theres love what she remembers. Well i read it over the last two days because i wanted to be fresh so this is not like i read it a month ago. Is burning in my brain right now. Yeah. No animal muppets. Yeah. Hence is a love that at the end of one of the these very very meetings where you know the whole table was covered with like coffee cups and cookies, everything for hours trying to figure what to do and they one of the people said they really wanted to have baba yaga as of their muppets. And that is a witch who eats children. So so i was like, we have we have a long road to go. But it wasnt only that. It was also like the music director, oh, this was good. It was a, you know, in a accomplished pianist and and a composer and she insisted that the only have Classical Music and Everybody Knows i mean sesame street is known for its music its diversity its inventiveness in terms of the music. And also i had lived the soviet union, you know, for during this earlier period and had made another film about underground rock and roll and a lot of those musicians had been persecuted under they werent allowed to their music. They werent allowed perform and they couldnt make any money earn a living from it. If this woman had had her way, they would have stayed that way. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah. She was one of the more rigid and unflappable characters that i know and another another colleague called her the oldest 30 year old id ever met my life. Right. Um, talk for a minute, though, because there is a lot of cultural, legitimate cultural that these people had and possibly mistrust of the west because theyd been indoctrinated, think that for so many years. And now suddenly everything cracks open and theyve got pizza hut mcdonalds, which they have mixed feelings about. Right. And so and now going to be adorable, clever little ditties like rubber ducky, russian they admittedly they did not use any of the same songs that we knew in america. But you know there were arguably going to be new ones that kids could actually sing. I dont see kids on the playground. You singing prokofiev. I mean but this is what she thought, right . But no, i understood where she was coming from, i mean, they had incredibly long, rich tradition of music and, actually, most of their animated for, you know, children used Classical Music and theyre beautiful. Its all cel animation. And we were lucky because the talent base of these incredibly talented people was very high. So we pulled people our team was about 400 puppeteers, was artists set designers, writers producers and and so at this time, studios in in russia were black. There was no money to make films. And they were unemployed. And when i back to russia in january of 2020 and i met with the chief director whos now in his eighties and he told something that he hadnt told me for 30 years, and he played hard to get when i was going trying to hire him. And telling me, oh, im doing another film now and everything. And he told me in january that he hadnt worked in a year and a that he was incredibly worried about feeding his family. And when we offered him the job, you know, it was like the greatest at that time, but it took him 30 years to tell me that. Would you say that economic fear is of the largest reasons why you were able to assemble this team. Did they want to what percentage of them you think actually wanted to help you bring sesame street to russia and what percentage them initially . Because i know this changed over time just wanted the paycheck also didnt come right away but well get to that i would say that that was a depiction of the of the team at all really that you know the after after a you know living under communism for that many years people felt this incredible release and hope passion about trying create a better russia a different russia as they often referred it. We want to create a normal country. Oh, and at the same said at the same time they did have enormous pride and and rightfully so. I russia has made tremendous artistic contributions. Oh, god, to the world and what they did you know ive worked in i had worked in Different Countries the experience that i had creating the muppets, for example with the russians was like nothing at all i mean, the discussion of what the color going to be of the muppets involved a Multi Dimension no conversation about a Kandinsky Kandinsky and the artist had written a treatise on the theory of color the meaning of color. Yeah right which was you know it related to the emotion that different colors carry. So this had to be part of the that because everybody was fluent in that. Yes. Everybody and they looked at me when i said, what are you guys talking about . And they said, oh, yellow you cant be yellow. That causes. And you know, and then they got to the red one and, you know, makes children hyper. And i thought. Wait a second. Elmos red, you know, i mean, hes like the most character, but, you know, eventually they chose they chose blue and even was a discussion because the word for blue in russian a boy means gay. So some of the people thought people will think the puppets gay. And i was like puppets dont have a Sexual Identity like other funny. Id like to back up a little bit even though this is all stuff i love to when you kind of just arrived there and you told by Corporate Headquarters that one of your first tasks in this kind of environment is to find a broadcasting partner and like you to discuss, this is the part of the book where i like natasha was like sisyphus pushing this boulder up the hill only to have it roll down again and explode so its worse than sisyphus. If you could get into that a little bit, was where i began to think i would not be woman enough to go through what went through. And ill ask you more about how you managed to persevere in the face of things shes about to tell you. Yeah. I mean there were there the environment after had fallen apart was very violent so the the center of the government was was weak. And at this point you had the west western bankers investors flooding into the country and was enormous amount of money flowing russia at this time and the oligarchs were starting to take over so at this point you know were sesame street a nonprofit and we are looking for a sponsor for our show so we finally. One in one of the oligarchs who. You know, decided that what we were doing was important and. We negotiated a deal. He was all in and, you know, he was sort of upset that big bird wasnt to be in the show. But they were going to have their own original muppets, bluebird, bluebird. Who did win on the blue thing, after all, gave bluebird . Yes, but but anyway, he you know he he was his car was blown up in a car bombing and he had severe burns most of his body and. He had to leave the country. The country, really. And that was one deal that exploded. And then not less than a few months later, we did another broadcast deal. So this was now second time we had done this and that was with the head of russias Largest Television broadcaster. There were only two channels in russia at this time, so they didnt have cable as we did in the u. S. There there were a few tiny stations that were just starting. And that signal from the russian station was sent across 11 time zones. So when we got the deal to do the broadcasts, there was a it was a big deal. And this this was a wonderful man list of who was trying to freedom of expression of free press to the tv station and to battle corruption inside the television station related to advertising revenue. And when he went home to his to his house after leaving the tv station, he was shot on the steps of his home and this is the moment where i want to ask you at any point, if you were personally afraid for your own physical. I wish i wish had been more, you know. Its its sort of like youre younger. You you dont think you sort of think youre close to it. But this these two circum stances were probably the scariest moments for me. Other one other moment that happened later. But yeah, theres, you know, it was just a little too close comfort and mostly i was just really sad because these were people that i had, you know, become close to. They were my confidants. They i trusted them and were going to help us and at no point was there ever an official explanation, of course. Right to this day that murder of lordly steve, 120 judicial files in their in their in their station. And its still unsolved. One of the things in natashas book that i found in retrospect typically russian is these unbelievably fraught. Things would happen and there would never be any explanation and you would never know who was behind it or why. I mean, it could have been the guys mistress or it could been a complete political, you know, hit job and always scary when you dont know what youre dealing or whos behind it. So this leads me to what i personally found. Even though she was not physically present at the time to be maybe most scary incident, those were awful. But this actually had to do with your offices. Yeah, we had. So our office was inside the television station. This is a station that i visited in january 2020, which was, you know, surreal to be Walking Around the same place 30 years later. But now it was different and. We had all of our scripts and equipment, even a life size elmo that was our mascot in the office and. What happened is soldiers came all of a sudden they had ak sevens and they took over the entire floor and kicked everybody out of the office is and then took locks and sealed the lock on the offices and put on it and said, everybody, thats it done. And of course everything was in this office and at this time. There are no computers. We didnt have been computers existed, of course, but we we had limited use of computers because most of the people will. 99. 9 of the people we worked with had never used a computer before. So we had all of our written scripts and everything in this office and that pretty terrifying. Okay, this there are some slightly more things im going to get to, but you had glamorous female partner who professed great affection for you, but barely came through with offices or production money. And you really knew what the deal was with. Her to this day, do you i mean, irina yes, yes. She of the designer boots, fabulous hair. But like somehow it seemed like Corporate Headquarters had to bail you out a few times with cash infusions, did finally come through with new offices . Yes. No, she was amazing. She she was she she was the kind of person that, you know she would she could get anybody to do. Anything. She was including you including me. She was cokehead ish and incredibly powerful at the same time. And and yeah, she she she created she made my life hell. But at the same time, i adored her. I mean, i know that her heart was in the right place, but there were it was very difficult to be woman in the advertising and business in russia at that time and for team i mean we we hired mostly women so i was when i accepted the job with sesame street i knew going in you know russia is very patriarchal vehicle sexist society and had come from america as a film person and it was also not easy. So i thought, okay, i can create the team that is, you know, more than 50 women. And so a female partner and females helped facilitate that key roles made it you know a really unusual production. All right like you didnt have enough on your plate with all of these other things. So im going to get back to some of the Creative Things that you did in a minute. But you fell in love, got married and got pregnant, all while trying to lift like atlas the world on your shoulders and after Corporate Headquarters agreed to step with a cash infusion because irina wasnt quite there yet you know because your people getting paid you became something that i have never before heard of which is a lactating cash can you tell that story to . These people i was howling when i read it. I mean, realize it was scary because you were going through customs, but people were literally wasnt easy ways to get money to russia. You can about why that turned out to be. Yeah i mean there were no there were no Western Banks russia at this time and it was impossible unless you establish yourself as an entity legally in the country but also if you if sent money to russia it was in your your dollars were immediately to rubles and the ruble was evaluating like 25 would be meaningless. Yeah i mean you couldnt run a production like that, right . So, you know, we had come up with other ways to do this and there were a lot of discussions this. But in one, you know, everything we did was completely legal and you know, at one point i had to carry, you know, the less than the legal amount of 10,000. And of course, i had double sized bra. I was pregnant and i could anyway, theres ample room for for the is all i can say. Well its a good thing none of the customs people tried to cop a feel because you would still be in a russian jail. I that just slayed me, you know funny now because she got through okay so we talked a little bit about some of the creative pushback and difficult but was what was the what was can you talk about a couple of creative turning points you had where these people start to come together understand each other better understand you better. Theres a point where started to actually gel. It was a long time coming, too. There was a lot pushback, some people quit because they didnt get their miserable russian music or other reasons. So well that. Yeah. Mean that that case if you take the music for instance the woman was dead set against modern sounds you know she met with. One of my friends who had become a rock and roll star. Later and, you know, she was scared to meet this. I mean, he wore leather pants. He had an earring. This was terrifying her from where she was from, having been educated in the moscow conservatory. But she came back from this meeting like a changed woman. They found commonality had children the same age and from that point on, you know, he explained to her that, you know, he could also write music for children and this, you know, guy ended up writing some of the best songs for the show and the the the music director was able to change her attitudes and accept bringing in all kinds young Music Artists so that that you know did happen she didnt have to quit and and the the other another example of is for instance when we were discussing inclusive oh this is and you know this was at the three day curriculum seminar all the education experts and we showed a clip of a from the sesame street america show to give them an idea of, you know, how how tolerance can be addressed. And in this little in this, theres a little boy in a wheelchair. Hes with a friend, and hes flying kite. And in the background there is this upbeat song you, know me and my chair. We go everywhere. And im watching the clip and smiling and video ends and i look at the the group and theyre just looking at this, you know, at me and the tv and they just say, how can you do that. Its so exploitative to show children in a wheelchair and then another woman. Why would you why would normally ji normal children ever want to watch a tv show with nina simone and shes saying it like just innocently and im sitting listening to these, you know, enlightened educators and thinking to myself, maybe theyre ready for sesame street. Maybe this is just a really bad idea and, you know, this is kind of disheartening because id already been through you previous discussions how they didnt want our muppets and you know, there were all kinds of other challenges related to this besides the Classical Music and and, you know, one woman says, you americans dont understand that our children will never have wheelchairs that our country, you know, is is falling apart, that Health Care System has collapsed. So we children who are trapped in their and if you have children who, have wheelchairs in the tv show, how will these children in their beds feel . Theyll be sad. Wow, thats intense. So intense. But then, you know, i mean it goes on from there because as debate continues about how to this because these these educators feel a sense of responsible bility, theyre making a show in a, you know, for millions of children and they want to change the country. But theyre not sure how. And you know what one guy said . He said he was a physicist and he said, you know, youre youre tasking us with coming up with a tv show that can teach children and model for children values to help them thrive in a new open society. But we dont know what a new open society looks like. Wow and could you speak to the racial inclusivity part because that was that i think was one of your triumphs actually. The you mean. Well, the the various racial like they didnt want i cant remember there was ukrainians or they wanted you know, it was very because of all the different types of russians that they are and so racial and. Yeah no no no thats thats a really good question. So, um, during this particular seminar, it was very difficult, because there was a, um, an attack in budapest, which chechens were taking over a russian town. And it was one of the first attacks where you had postsoviet brothers fighting against each other, you know, and so there was enormous feeling of hostility towards the chechens, central asia, so, you know, our goal to create a tv show that would to all children the former soviet union and there over 123 nationality. So thats where in the former soviet union begin to do that and you know this was this this experience that went over several days while we were having discussion with the. Took took enormous strength id say tolerance on the part of the people in the in the in the workshop because they had to come over their feelings of incredible anger in order to think of the bigger issue of, you know, educating everybody. And they did. And they did. Yeah, but i guess the tension muppet was out. You werent going to make one of those. No chechen puppet. Okay. I want to know, can you just come up with one example of, a moment you really felt you turned the was that what maybe what we were just discussing . Or is there another one we havent discussed where you suddenly, after i was in boulder. I would say, okay so just i mean, start just continuing. On this theme of inclusivity. So didnt really finish that story, but you know what ended up happening is that there was a woman in the back of the room who suddenly up and she said, you know, my name is ludmilla and im from, uh, chuvash, which is a small region in western which extends from the volga to siberia. And our town was as a dumping ground for hazardous chemicals during the era. So we had highest rate of deformity deformities of children. So as shes talking the group and theyre still trying to debate this issue, inclusivity and she says, i with these children every day i play with them. I laugh with them and they yearn to play with normal children. Shes the word normal. And she was heard by the others. They heard they i watched her speaking and then she she with them. Why cant you write scenarios for these children that show them as human and, valuable to the society and the guys who had spoken earlier who said, you know, oh, its you know, you cant show children in wheelchairs and theyre all sitting there, you know, shifting in their seats uncomfortably. And then i look around the room and i see that a couple of people are crying and, you know, this is this is your for them. And you have american that are sitting in that meeting with them as well. Were you crying too . I was crying, too. And i was trying to hide it, you know, because im the. Whos supposed to be in charge starting now. Yeah. And it was really, you know, an incredible moment because i didnt need to say anything. The americans just sat there and this they said it to each other. They said it to each. And they saw you know it was like she was like an angel, you know, descending into the room, into the chaos. Yeah. And then everybody, you know, came to this conclusion that together that they had to do this they had a sense of their response ability. I want to know something that doesnt have to do with an angel coming down, although it does. Like, thats what it was. Why were you able in the end to succeed i mean, this seemed like an insurmountable the more you read this book and you know, its got of freakish humor in it. And its very but i would have packed and gone home we to eat why were you able to succeed i think that that they could have sent 99 other people and they would have washed out was it your love of the culture was it your respect for the creative process. Tell me why you in the end you were able succeed because did succeed the show did get made it did become a huge hit from the day it first aired and it was on air for years even after she left we all know the end of the story but im very interested in what you think you were able to pull out of yourself that that made with the assassinations the have the ak 47 in the office and these tremendous clashes of of these creative egos. I just why do you think you succeeded i think it was very much about the people that i was working with and seeing the sacrifices that they were willing to make and incredible hope after under communism for so many years that, you know, the that it was possible that this country, this vast country could change was, you know, incredibly seductive and the ambition that sesame street, you know as a nonprofit, the risk that the company was willing to take it was phenomenal. I mean most companies would have walked out at that point and these people that you cared about and respected them. I did love them. Yeah. And you know, and also people were dying. I mean there are people that were you know, you work with them every day and suddenly you theyre just murdered and. This didnt you know, i didnt even talk about. The third person who was also murdered, that was the third broadcaster. And know the the you know, the two weeks before i had given him a tickle me elmo doll and he had a picture of his eight year old daughter on the on his table. And we talked about and he was this kind of buffeted guy who, like, hugged me, which is when he first met me, which is kind of unusual, you know, you usually have a little more distance with russians and and this guy, you know, was also murdered. And no no explanation to day i can show you. I mean, theres a picture him in the book, but, you know, when youre in that environment and then you go home, you know, i go back home to my fiancee, who then became my husband and, you know, and youre in in america and its its, you know, peaceful by comparison and and stable and has had 200 years of democracy. So you go back and you had out to dinner with friends and theyre talking about, you know, pasta and real estate and you and then you go back to moscow now and youre in this intense environment where, you know, theres the possibility of creating totally different future and to give you children something that can help them, you move into a more open society. So, i mean, part of that for me was a gift and it was nothing like making documents and it overcame the fear it overcame the fear. I mean, i definitely was afraid i wouldnt say overcame fear. There were many times when i afraid and i just you know, i had excellent team. I had very close partner. Leonid is a guy who from moscow. And you did have a very close friend who had your back. Yeah, right. And i was working with, you know, i have to stop you because that was my last question. Why did you succeed . And we will now negate the possibility of anyone else asking you a question. So i its that time where we have to turn it over to the rebel. How did the office resolve and what were challenges to making that happen and revisiting the studio in 2020 . What were most meaningful compares scenes and reflections for you . Thats a pretty long question. So ill try and ive got a couple more, so do what you can. Yeah. So the, the Office Takeover was not resolved. We lost everything and we had start from scratch again and all scriptwriters were working in their apartments for a, i guess about another two and a half months and there were no cell phones so we couldnt call anybody, we couldnt have any meetings because. Nobody would know where to go. And finally we we would set up these we would we would set the meeting for the next meeting, each meeting. And then people would show up at somebodys apartment and. We would be discussing scripts or whatever we had to do and far as going back to moscow in in 2020, i was absolute stunned to discover that the studio studio number 13, where we had never been renovated in all that time, like the equipment was new, but walls were the same. And when i asked the woman so when i went into the studio, into the tv station, and when i went in this time they had all kinds of security and wasnt there, you know, earlier, and there were no were i understood there were no americans, you know, walking in out of the tv station at that time. And they kind of didnt understand why i was there. They didnt believe that i had made. Well, its a system which means sesame street in russia until we went to the studio and they mentioned that there was somebody who worked on the show and they called this man anton on who had who was like an audio engineer and they had him speakerphone and they said theres this american who, you know, says she works on will. Its a system this all in russian. And he says is that Natasha Lantz and from then their behavior changed completely. Yes, they turn into pussycats. Yeah. Okay, this is when you can answer fairly easily. What kind of did saddam receive in popular social culture russia and how large or small was its viewership. It was huge hit across the entire former ussr and it lasted for ten years. It aired on russias two top tv channels simultaneously, which had never previously and my my information now is anecdotal, you know, more recently. But when i people in in europe and in the states who are from the former union like the georgian nail salon ists who i saw the other day and they you know theyll often start when i tell them that i worked on the show and theyll say you know theyll start reciting a song from the show its very much like sesame it was that popular so this answer in the post was about it having a lasting influence. But this this questioner did want to know why, why it was canceled and it happened. Is this a putin thing . It was canceled. It was very hard to get like one answer to this question when i was interviewing people for book. But essentially as relations with the u. S. And russia worsened and putin cracking down on independent, there was a real grab to control a lot of programs including our program sesame street and they the people in charge the tv executives wanted to fire the Research Director russian Research Director and replace some of the people because they didnt like the ideological direction the show was going. And this leads into this question which was were there any particular storylines, the show that caused a reaction from, russian viewers that you didnt expect. Hmm thats a really good question. Um. Not not in my tenure or not in the first, so really. No at all after all that i mean thats amazing. The show is very russian. I mean, i think you picture here the they drink. But the characters like the muppet or the the blue muppet character zelig bobo you have that picture you can show them oh. Yes, thank you. Is is here and he is his origin story fascinating because. He came out of, uh, russian and hes based on adoma voi, which is the spirit, the hearth in the home. And he lives in nature. So he became zilli baba. And if you you look closely at the picture theres tufts moss and grass and twigs in his costume and the show he lives inside a 40 foot tree. This is an oak tree which is so russian, even to the oak leaves which had to have the correct number of points that so that it would be consistent with russian oak leaves. And im not kidding. Like all the characters had an Art Department that i would kill for the art they just they were, they were true artists in every sense of the word. And it was everything had to be like that. And the only problem is that, you know, this time in moscow, they didnt any bark or there was no like a scenic design where you could go and order this stuff. So we actually to transport 60 boxes of bark and leaves and grass to moscow, you know, by hand, but not at all. Not my brought them. I saw a little be dangerous but heres a question i think i know the answer to but youll know better i. Were there other programs being produced on Russian Television this time which were revolutionary . The answer is no. Yeah. I had a feeling there were later. Later there were, but not at this time. And at this time there was only one other childrens show spoken in sochi. Malusi and it was like a 15 minute verite didactic show. And it it had been it was it was a show that kids were shown before they go to bed, which was basically like, watch the show be obedient, go to bed, show with some of these other pictures we have time, we have a few minutes of time. Okay. Yeah. And so this is this is the the mail character is cubic and hes basically a modern nerd. And and he he hes based a russian literary character like a neer do well. So he comes up with ideas. Hes very inventive, but hes always inventing things that already exist, like clothesline. And then bazinga, which is the little hand puppet here is the female muppet that was created originally for elitism and this was a real discussion because in the book i go into great detail about the gender discussions because they initially the team many people on the team her to be docile and kind of sweet often similar characters in russian literature that are female characters but the young writers the female were like we dont want to do we just had this revolution. We want to create a whole new stereotype. I mean, a whole. We want to we want to. Yeah, we want to clutter. We want to counter the stereotype types and create a whole new way of modeling how young girls can be. So they made her very energetic and she is kind of mischievous and she dances the. So thats how that was her character character, is that it . Well, i have one last question for you, which is the corporate parent Street Company had to know virtually all of the things you were going through. Did you feel they were fully appreciative of what you were down . It was you know, its a Different Company now than it was then. The kind of work that sesame street is doing as a nonprofit, syria and all these countries, including creating programs now for ukrainian children and refugees all over the world, you know, its very mission driven. And its an its incredibly internationally focused. But at the time we were working, it was very focused on the u. S. Domestic production and we were we were a unit. So i think there were people that worked with me closely and theyre in the book, theyre heroic people who fought. But it wasnt uniform uniformly approved the corporation. So often felt at the time that i was being you know that there were enormous obstacles both in moscow and there were also obstacles on the corporate side you know in the united states. But me personally i always preferred the obstacles and moscow easier. Me welcome to my world with corporate at Entertainment Company behavior. Ive i know more about than what youve been through i mean im sure you do is there else because we have just a couple of minutes left that i havent asked about or we havent touched on. Yeah, i do. To talk about one thing, which is, you know when we, we decided to hold the auditions so for the children, this was just before we the filming of the muppets the slavic muppets with the russian actors in the newly created neighborhood. We had to cast all the children for the show and i had been looking forward this moment for months. This is you hear, you know, sweet soprano, no voices singing. And i thought this was going to be fabulous. And i get to the to the auditions and the director asks me to kind of stay in the back. Most of these parents with their children had never met an american before and they said you know why dont you you know that might intimidate them a little bit so just lets not introduce and as i sat there the first little boy comes in and all the children are performing in completely isolated from each other so they cant hear what the other children are singing. And the first little boy comes in. He sings this song from belarus, example from a film. And its a World War Two song and the plant the words are Something Like the planet is burning, you know, everything is lost lost. I die now happily and im sitting thinking to myself, okay, this is this is really weird for comedy show. But im like he on pitch at least he hitting he dropped his voice. Hes. Talking in my go sitting, you know, standing upright like this. And then the he leaves. And then the next little girl comes in, little blond with eyes, a beautiful girl who then sings this song from could called katyusha and its kind of this morose World War Two song about. Uh, a a woman bidding her lover as he goes off to the front. So this so the rest of the morning is like this. And im just sitting here dumbstruck. Youre thinking, this country needs childrens song. Id love. Become like and i had this was already after with the Classical Music thing and so then it at lunchtime i asked the director and i say to him whats going on why what what are they on this . You know, i was expecting like all mcdonalds had a farmer. Its a building spider and and he says, natasha, you dont understand these. You think of these songs as morose. These songs are poetic and lyrical. And these are the songs that bring children comfort. These are the songs that they sang with their grandmothers and he says you shouldnt think of them, you know, as as sad songs. And then he says, our children are read poetry from a very young age and they expect sadness this in their music. And their lives. The russian relationship with misery is really this, and that must been very hard for you to pry that apart a little bit. And lets some sun and the crack it was but it was often such an organ tick process. You know, you ask what kept me there it was not only the discussions about kandinsky, but it was also these moments where you have this discussion and then, you know, several months later, after we had we tested some of these, you know, serious that we had created. And the director open to changing his mind because in some of videotaped research where we tape the kids and watching the show the reaction to those songs was not good as when we had the upbeat. And in one of them a little boy picked up a fake pistol as he was the lyrical poetic songs and he shot the little girl with the braids next to him. So the director like, oh, okay. But then great way to make your point but you know i will leslie that you know one of the things i think about now that you know brings you know just gives me such solace and i thought about this at about 4 00 in the morning, one night. And i this was as i was, i had been watching all young men and women marching out of russia, you know, in their late you know, theyre in their late twenties and early. And, you they dont want to they dont want to fight. They dont support the war. And it occurred to me thats the age cohort that watched all the two is all. Yeah, thats sisters armed generation. And then as i was lying bed not able to sleep just know its been hard with this horrific war and having seen where we were 30 years ago and where we are today and i realized that in ukraine as that the young people fighting for their independence now who are the same cold cold age cohort they are also bullets of some generation. Yeah so we did make an impact and that must feel good. Yeah last thing we have time to. I have time for one more thing. Um, i want you to describe your feelings, the night it first aired and what you saw and experience that night i, that was one of my favorite days. I bet i had come back to moscow after giving birth to my son and i was there with my colleague who i mentioned earlier, gorsky. We had a big it was a premiere the night of premiere of the show every major Foreign Network was there and you know Just International press and we had a big show with puppets with the muppets zilli, baba and the kids were screaming. There were so many people, the audience, that the kids were lining front of the stage. And when this finished, i went outside with my colleague, with leonid and it was snowing and we stood stood there in the snow and there, apartment blocks in front us, these cement soviet style apartment blocks. And it was this was around, you know, just before 6 00. And we looked at the windows and noticed that all the windows were changing color. Uh, simultaneously. So it was like blue blue, blue, red you know, just like all the same colors. And it occurred to us that the show just aired, and they were all the sizzle. And it was this is incredible feeling, you know, of all that you would have to wait for the overnight numbers. You really just looked at the apartment windows. Oh, god, that is great. Are we out of time . Seems like we might be. Is there anything anybody wants to ask . Im done with my cards. Im done with my questions. Somebody have one that i didnt get to. Theyre shy shy. All right . This is as much as ive got. Do you have anything else . I mean, like were. Were already over time. Mean. Wheres carla . Carla . Yeah. Okay. Talked a lot about, you know, during that she maybe made your counterparty a lot about their, uh uh, their purchasing. Basically did their lifestyles and mindset have any impact on how you view the world and ways to change. Thats a great question. Um, i would say that absolutely. The group that i worked with, you know, was an incredible Spiritual Group of people and the scene like, of the when we were shooting it felt a lot like sesame street in from what i had heard in the of sesame street in 69 and a lot of people who had been there, i had not been there at the start of sesame street in america, but they said when they visited the set in moscow that it really reminded them of that and you know that made me incredibly happy but also it made me realize some of the different values and you one one particularly in the script writing and for instance there was one one time when we were developing a story that was going to teach kids how the idea of happy and sad and in this story theres little girl a little boy holding a balloon and one of the and the boy lets go of his balloon accident and he starts crying and the little girl you know is Still Holding her balloon and then the scriptwriter wrote this storyboard and then the little girl lets go of balloon and they watch balloons go up into the sky together and they this moment you know enjoying the beauty in having nothing together. And then i realized if that had been written by an american writer, you know, and my reaction was the same, why didnt they just keep the other balloon and share the balloon, you know, like, you know was like, what you know . And so it really you have nothing. I can have nothing to. Thats what russian. Yeah, it was very russian and i thought and so i had a lot moments like that and it made me think about, you know values that we have our, you know, Consumerist Society you know, every every question that that came up in terms of the script writing really made me question a lot. You know, the direction of our society. Anybody else i a. Go. Tom is there anything regard to. Thank you. Is there anything with regard to the mindsets or behavior of the there that in the nineties that you think precipitated some of the more uh authoritarian and putin aspects of Russian Society today. Or was it a more open and freeing time where there no shadow of that. I would that the period of the 1990s was is an incredibly painful period for a lot of russians and a period of extreme poverty and the expectation that that russia could change and would change and eventually mirror our Society Today was really naive but this difficult period for the russians was effectively used by putin in his narrative in order to just authoritarian policies that he adopted in order to prevent such violence from happening again. And he you know, notes the 1990 in his contemporary speeches. So i think there is a correlation between the time periods. I think there was one. Moreover, there no more question sort of two steps forward one. All right. No, its fine. Well, thank you, everyone natasha, please thanks, tasha. This program and leslie gibson. All right. Were all thank you. And please know that natasha will be outside and to sign books for anyone who would like to get a copy of it. And it is a great so theres more it and you should explore thanks so it is an for me to introduce professor today. Sanshiro has recently become a common professor of natural philosophy at, Johns Hopkins university, and hes also a faculty at the santa fe institute. Hes a theoretical physics. And as such, he written many interesting