Transcripts For CSPAN3 The 20240704

Good evening, everybody. Im Betsy Fischer martin, the executive director of the women in Politics Institute at American University. And welcome to our virtual series, women on wednesdays. We are glad you could join us this evening. To those of you need one of our events, wpi, is a nonprofit and nonpartisan institute in School Public affairs that aims to close the gender gap in political leadership. Now we offer academic and practical Campaign Training and we facilitate research and discussions like this on women in politics and leadership. And we are so pleased to be cohosting tonights conversation with the first ladys association for research and education, otherwise known as claire and amys first ladies initiative, which seeks to highlight the significant contributions of americas first ladies. And there is no doubt that the subject of tonights discussion edith wilson is among the most influent and powerful president ial spouses in history. In fact, for several months from late 1919 to the beginning of 1920, she became the most powerful woman in the nation. And well talk about that. Some would even describe her as this countrys first female president. In many ways. Yet there is so much that we dont know about Edith Bolling, galt wilson until now. Thanks to our guest tonight, author and educator Rebecca Boggs roberts, who has just written a thoroughly reported new biography, the second wife of our 28th president. Woodrow wilson. The book is titled untold power the fascinating rise and complete sex legacy of first lady edith wilson. Before we start, i want to let you know that we will save of time for some questions at the end, so please feel free to type those in the bottom. During the course of our discussion. And as i mentioned, we are happy to be cohosting this women on wednesday with the first ladys initiative at agu and especially thrilled that the director of the first ladys initiative, our friend anita mcbride, is here tonight as well. Anita, as im sure many of you know, is the former chief of staff for First Lady Laura Bush and earlier in her career was the director of president ial personnel for Ronald Reagan and george h. W. Bush. Anita, let me have you set the stage a bit for our discussions tonight and just talk about what we can learn from the study of first ladies and their significant contributions to our history. Thank you so much, betsy. Im really thrilled to be here with you tonight and with rebecca to have our first ladys initiative and flare partner with you on this great discussion. And im looking forward to this. And just a little bit of background about why the first ladys initiative was established at American University about 11 years ago. And it is the only adversity in the country that has and an entire initiative associated with this topic of studying first ladies, their impact on our history, their impact on our politics, which youll hear about tonight, our Public Policy and our global diplomacy. So we have been the convener of some of the nations best experts on this topic. Those who have worked for first ladies, those who have followed them, covered them in the media, written about them, scholars in their books like youll hear from rebecca tonight and from first ladys actually inform our first ladies and president s themselves. So were very proud of our initiative. Agu has a long history of hosting first ladies at the University Since eleanor roosevelt, so we are the perfect convener. I invite all of your viewers to look at our web site, american dot edu slash first ladies that has the 11 years worth of these fabulous conferences and conversations about first ladies, the this is a role that has no Job Description and here in our initiative and through flair, the First Ladies Association for research and education, which really does seek to have the best scholars. Highlighted about first ladies, we hear in their own words through their viagra fees, through the stories about them, how handled this job, how it was thrust upon them. Some more skilled than others coming into politics. Edith wilson, youll hear from rebecca was not this was thrust upon her but she certainly used the platform in an incredibly powerful way, in a way that most americans do not know until now. And in this fabulous book. So i im grateful to you, betsy, for this tonight. Im grateful to you, rebecca, for writing such a phenomenal book. And we are very happy. Help promote it and share it and will be on our web site of all the best scholarship on on first ladies will add it to our biblio wifi. And so im forward to the conversation. This is an important topic in american history. These women are due their place and youre helping to do that. So have a great conversation. Im really looking forward to it tonight. Thank you. Thank you, anita, so much. So, rebecca, lets get started. And i sort of wanted to start with the bookends of the book, where you in the book and where you beginning begin the book with edith wilson by her husband side. You write at the very end she would go on to become the most powerful woman in the nation. She would go on further to pretend she was nothing of the kind. So we have this we have this sort of double issue here of shes so powerful, but yet she she didnt seem to seek it and she sort of demurred from making that public in many ways. Take us back to this time of october, 1919, when Woodrow Wilson, her husband, has this stroke. So he had been ailing for most of year. He had gotten quite sick in paris while he was negotiating the peace treaty. It was 1918, there was a flu epidemic. He caught a flu. And then when they came back to the states, he was really battling the senate. The republicans had taken control of both of congress in the 1918 midterms. And they were blocking ratification of the treaty and he was unwilling to compromise. They were unwilling to compromise. It was really an impasse. And the president hit on this idea that the only way out of this impasse was to take the issue to the voters. He was going to take a crosscountry train tour and convince everyone of the righteousness of of the league of nations and it was a terrible idea. Everyone it was a terrible idea. You dont take a sick man and put him on a really hot train car and chuck him around the country. And as de fallows died, he collapsed on the train. The train tour was canceled. They rushed back here to washington a week later, as you say, in october of 19, 19, he suffered a massive stroke. He his entire left side was paralyzed. His life really did hang in the balance for a good week, even after he was out of mortal danger. He was a he was a very sick man. And as edith tells it, in her memoir, which has its own agenda as memoirs do in her version, i want to talk about that. Right. Her version is that the doctors came to her and said he cant face any stress, he cant hear any bad news. He cant even really get out of bed. If he does those things, hes going die. So what does the president a president faces . Stress. Heres bad news and gets out of bed. So if he does all of the things the president needs to do, hes going to die. But meanwhile, he cant quit because the only thing hes for is to see the league of nations. And so if if he quits, youve taken his only motivation for improvement. So if he stays president , hell die. If he quits, hell die. And if he dies, therell never be world peace. That was the stakes that she was given. So in her mind, the only thing she could do was do his job for him until he was better enough to do it himself. Thats, of course, preposterous. Nobody elected edith to anything but that was the course she undertook. She conspired with his doctor Carey Grayson and his secretary functioned as his chief of staff. Joe tumulty. And the three of them kept it secret how sick he really was. They lied to the public and the press and the congress and the cabinet and Vice President and to the president himself. He never really understood how sick he was. And in the meantime, it was edith who decided who saw him, who was almost no one. She responded to any issues that came before the executive branch. She drafted public statements. She communicated diplomats. She made about the cabinet for four months. This was not a kind of couple of days while he got back on his feet sort of a situation. This was really the better part of the end of 19, 19 and 19, 20. And she justified doing that because she was doing what was best for her husband and kind of nation, be although she did truly believe that Woodrow Wilson remaining president was also good for the for country. And as you say, she she swept a lot of it under the rug and really minimized her own role. And so you have to kind of plow through her own smoke and mirrors to figure out what her story really is. And it wasnt she was power hungry. She everything she did in her life from when she him was really in service him and protective of him. Right. Right. I mean, she wasnt some lady macbeth seizing the reins for an agenda, right . Yeah no, thats not fair. I think that. And she didnt necessarily do anything differently than he would have done. She knew his priorities pretty well. Its not like she went rogue with the power. I will say that, keeping him in isolation and not telling him any bad news had had its effects. Right. So even if she was consulting judgment on everything and she clearly wasnt not on everything that even if she was consulting his judgment on everything, at some point, his judgment wasnt great because didnt have all the facts. And so, you know, she had to sort of dance on this very fine line that what she was doing was justified. She she was the right person to do it because she was one of his closest confidants. She knew his mind. She knew his political priorities, but she absolutely did. And, you know, was it appropriate for her to kind of continue his policies in his name if he ultimately, you know, would have done the same thing . But meanwhile, it wasnt that big a deal. She was just, you know, acting as the stewart. And its hard to imagine in day and age the notion of a really not being seen or heard from for five months, obviously, that could not happen in this day and age. But back then, right, she did have to pull off some some acting skills and you that you open the book in the introduction with this incredible scene of captain character at to play literally theatrical when you know he had some visitors from the hill who were kind of suspect of what was really going and created the situation that they would be kind of popping in to see him and tell us about the scene and how they were able. Yeah, its just bananas. When i first read that. So there were some grumblings in, the senate, that the president hadnt been and and his own secretary of state, lansing, who was not a great fit for that administration and not the president s biggest, was sort of fed up with all of it. This is december of 1919. So hes been sick for a few months and lance singh admitted that he hadnt consulted the president about anything. And in fact, as far as he knew, no one had met with the president about anything in months and that then triggered this senate visit to eyeball. The president was nominally about a kidnaping mexico, but it was really as president called it, a smelling committee. And they they propped him in bed. I mean, its got all the makings of a farce that, you know, he couldnt sit up in a chair his whole left was useless. So they sort of wedged him up in bed and put a blanket over his left side so that it wasnt clear the extent of his paralysis. They lit up the chairs. The senators would sit in quite brightly, but kept the bed in shadows so that you couldnt really get a good view of stage to this report about the mexico situation. To his good right hand. I love that sitting on the bedside table, right . I mean, just prop right there and cross their fingers and hope for the best. It have gone either way. He definitely times where the speech was quite slurred and he had trouble following the conversation and the senators walk in and edith insists on being there in the room and senator falls from new mexico says. Ive been praying for you, mr. President , and the president says which way . Hahaha. And everyone thinks okay. It might be okay, it might be okay. And they, they pulled it off astonished. They pulled it off for the amount of time that the senators were in the president s. They really did not have a sense of how sick he was and because, of course, the entire Washington Press corps had gathered in the portico downstairs, they then went and told the press that the president was fine in giving him like higher marks than he really deserved. Even edith sort of crowed that they said he this use of his left hand, even though that was totally useless. So it yeah, it was quite, you know to use a very lowbrow analogy sort of weekend at bernies moment where they took about their read my mind right . You reading it and you have in the book a photo here too from i guess a couple of weeks later. And this is, you know, this is acting and opposed photo for those very purposes to of convince the public that he you know doing his work and and perfectly yeah by spring of 1920 the fact that he hadnt been seen in public hadnt been seen in public five months. This is not the same as just not being super accessible. The people were starting to grumble about it and so they staged a interview with a friendly reporter who was only going to ask the questions that they approved and staged this photo and edith is actually holding that paper steady so that the president can sign it. He was not steady enough to be able to do that without her help. And this image is the cover of a couple different biographies of her because it it shows her looking over his shoulder in that very watchful way. I actually chose not to use it because. I want it to foreground her, not him. Yeah, but yeah, it is quite a moment in history. Yeah. And take back to the edith story of how they meet, you know, she, his wife had had passed away. He was a widower. Her husband had lost her first husband, had also died. How do they come together . Tell us a little bit about that, of how she became mrs. Wilson. Yeah. So this is why really enjoyed getting to know edith. Well. And if you are surprised by how she acted after his stroke, you kind of werent paying attention. She had really buried her way into situations that she wasnt necessarily prepared for and just trusted her own opinion and, exuded selfconfidence and she was kind of a fake it till you make it sort character throughout her life. And so even though she had grown up without a lot formal education, six of nine kids in the foothills of appalachia, she had come washington as a teenager. She had older sister who lived here, who was married, and she married a man who ran galts store, norman galt, and went and they had baby that only survived three days. So no children when he died in 1908, she inherited galt so that was unusual for woman in 1908 to have her own business like that. And to have independence over her wealth in that way. And she was really good at it. She became this sort of wealthy widow about town. She was a figure of style and substance independence in a way that was pretty hard women to be in 1908. So so thats who caught the eye of the president this. Stylish, independent widow of his. So he was elected 1912. His first wife, ellen, died in 1914. He, by all accounts, heartbroken. They had been married over 30 years. They had three adult daughters and the daughters had, when he had come to the white house, they were young, unmarried adults. Two of them had since got married and moved. The third wanted to be a singer. So she was kind of off on tours trying to make a career for herself. So wilson was left to kind of rattle around the white house alone. His cousin, helen bowens, there, serving in whatever capacity needed to be for first lady. There wasnt a lot of first lady thing going on in a white house in mourning. But for the things really couldnt be avoided. Helen barnes was doing them. But she was lonely too. And she was also in mourning. Theres. Thats a helen. Yes. On the left. Carrie, the doctor in the middle. And nell wilson mcadoo, the youngest daughter there. Theyre there at the races. And so it was actually grayson, that gentleman in the middle who was Woodrow Wilsons doctor and a good friend of ediths, coincidentally. And he was worried he was his patient depressed. And he went to edith and said, will you please make friends . Helen barnes theyre so lonely and sad, they could really use a friend can you can you just go be nice . And she said, no, just, she said, you know, i dont want any part of official washington im a local washingtonian. You and he said you dont need to be part of official washington. Theres Nothing Official going on just. Take her for a walk in Rock Creek Park just be nice. So did and edith and helen became friends and they would generally go take their walks, then go back to ediths house in dupont for tea. And one day helen insisted that they go to the white house for tea instead, which is surprising. Helen wasnt an insistent type, and edith was embarrassed. Her boots were all muddy. She didnt want that to be her introduction to the white house. And helen said, wont see anybody. Well take the elevator to the private. Well, you know, who cares that your boots are muddy . Itll be fine and ill see you. So they go to the white house muddy boots and all, and its a total setup. The elevator doors open and theres the president and Jerry Grayson and all have tea together. And let me tell, it was really love at first sight for the president. He was just gobsmacked from really that very first moment. She she took a little while longer but he was all that from the second those elevator doors opened. And you have these letters between the two. Oh, the letters. Yeah. And you write about out flirting by policy analysis and the fact that which shes really drawn to is not the sugary sweet capone end of of the courtship but getting to talk about Current Events and policy with him in fact you quote one of the letters that she back. She says as much as i love your delicious letters that would make any woman proud and happy i believe i enjoy more the ones in which you tell me what are working on the things that fill your thoughts and demand your best efforts for. Then i feel i am sharing your right and this you know she did not have a political background. Shes not someone who came up through politics with her spouse, but she showed this interest from the very beginning and you know the letters are fantastic because first of all, they just give you such a into what these peoples personalities were like because they werent curated for a public audience at all. They didnt know id be reading their mail and his letters are gushy fervid romantic over the top you know she his heart for her and he wants to kiss her eyelids and its on and on and shes writing back saying, so what are you going to tell germany about the lusitania . You know, whats going on with the carranza government in mexico . He proposed marriage five weeks after they met. She turned him down. She didnt feel like they knew each other well enough. The very next day. So he has just poured his heart out to her and proposed. He writes her this just absolutely, you know, gushy, gushy letter. She writes back, you know, we were having a really interesting conversation last night about William Jennings bryan. Do you think hes going to resign as secretary of state, who do you think will take his place . Maybe you should appoint me. What do you propose . Marriage. And shes suggesting herself a secretary of state before could vote nationwide. So she, even though she didnt have political background, she clearly is fascinated and she really wants to be an insider. And he finally did catch on about the flirting bye policy analysis. So he didnt stop at the kiss lit stuff, but he started adding more detail about what he was working on. And it wasnt patronizing. He wasnt of saying, oh, pretty girl here, this important stuff. Im just know keeping you happy really did come to trust her judgment really kind of above all others. He was not a man who had a cabinet of advisors. He had a couple of class confidants. And she over that course of that summer of 1950 and really became the person whose judgment he trusted the most. And it wasnt that she was gunning to be the first lady. In fact, when he right about when he first proposed eased, she basically said that they would get married, but only if he lost him if he lost. Oh, marry you if you lose. Oh yeah. And i think that, you know, every so often youll read an interpretation of that summer where people say, oh, she was just doing that southern thing of saying, no to be coy, i dont think thats fair at all. She had a lot to give up. She was this independent woman in control of her own life and her own wealth and she would have given up a lot to marry anybody, but certainly to marry the president of the United States and she would never have privacy again. And she very much worried that people would think she wanted, as she said, to marry the office, the man and accused her of being a social climber, not gold digger, because she had money and he didnt. But a social climber. And so she. Yes she said, ill marry you if you lose. He didnt really seem to hear that. He seemed to hear, ill marry you and started telling everyone they were engaged. Finally, by the fall of 1959, she said, okay im in win or lose, im in. And they got married in december of 1915, and so they announced the engagement. But it was not something that some people in his inner circle were happy about. You also to write about a fascinating soap opera of some efforts to write really deeply all this engagement thats another bananas story. So there was some concern even though the 19th amendment hadnt been ratified yet, women werent voting nationwide. Were more states enfranchising women, especially in the west which were considered critical electoral pockets. And there was some concern within the wilson that women voters would vote against him in 1916 because he had moved on from ellen too fast, that it was distasteful that he was not giving his first wife the memories she deserved and they concocted completely hair plot to that. A former friend of, waitrose was going to publish her letters from him and that those letters were inappropriate. This womans name is mary hulbert. It is not clear whether had an actual affair with her or just wrote some indiscreet letters back forth. But it had actually and i love this it had come up as a potential Campaign Issue in 1912. And Teddy Roosevelt wouldnt use it because he thought no one would believe it because because wilson was such a nerd and he said, you know, no one will cast as a romeo man who looks and acts so much like the apothecary clerk, not even charismatic to be the apothecary himself. Right. The apothecaries clerk and Teddy Roosevelt was actually worried. It make people like wilson more. And so these letters had been sort of floating around and people within the Wilson Administration and his own advisers floated this rumor that mary was going to go public with her letters if he got engaged in a fit of jealousy. It was not true. And he felt pretty confident that the letters werent that damaging anyway. But when he wind of this he went to edith and said this happen and im so ashamed of it and you dont deserve this and if you want to break off our engagement, i. Ill be heartbroken, but ill understand. This isnt your problem. And im so sorry. Its falling on your shoulders and he. He never knew that rumor was started by his own people. And that was sort of the moment son law, right . Yes william mcadoo, his daughter now, who was the third person in that picture at the races had married his secretary of the treasury. Yeah. Mm hmm. And so heres heres the engaged meant publicity round. Yeah this is one of the many sort of photo montages that was published in the paper once the engagement went public in the fall of 1915 and was received by the public. This engaged beautifully i mean, any concern that he had moved on too quickly any worry that it was improper was absolutely they loved her. They loved seeing him happy. They love, you know, all of the columns talked about what an appropriate match she was and how it was nice to have life in the white house. And, you know, mrs. Galt, will bring a social status to the white house that its been sorely lacking. Ellen wilson, his first wife, was first lady, was not her natural habitat, lets put it that way. She she was much more comfortable all in academia, where they had been. And when he was president of when they came here to washington, the gossip columns made fun of her clothes and her hair, and she shy. Yeah, this is ellen. So this is the daughters from. From the left side of your screen. Thats jesse the middle daughter. The first wife, ellen wilson, now the youngest daughter. Im thats margaret on the left. Ellen now, jesse and the president , just before he got elected in 1912, and ellen wilson just wasnt good at that public example role of, first lady. And she really hated it. And so she hadnt done a ton of entertaining. She wasnt out in public a lot and so when this, you know, stylish, beautiful, younger woman came on the scene, the press was very eager to see a lively white house again. I wanted to go back because youve mentioned suffrage, and i never even a question about this in the q and i wanted to you anyway not supportive and would think that given all weve just discussed it she would be explain that kind of obvious contradiction. Oh betsy i wish i could i mean so shes you know shes this Small Business owner she has gotten herself out of her small appalachian town and become woman of substance in gilded age, washington. She was the first woman in washington to get a drivers license. She was sort of known for tooling around town in her little electric car. So shes in many ways her independence and trailblazing spirit. And yet, did not actually think women should exercise their full rights as citizens. She never said why she was anti suffrage she never gave any interviews at all. I think some of it was just kind of a class thing that she felt that the suffrage activists were a little not nice. Well, here she is in her electric car. So these little electric cars, i will take a sidebar here because this was one of those Research Rabbit holes i fell completely down early. Electric cars were very much marketed to urban, wealthy women because they werent stinky and smoky. You didnt have to crank them. And so they had like bud vases on the dashboard and vanity cases built into them and thats edith driving hers. And you can see shes steering it by this kind of a tiller on the bed. Yeah. What is that . Its like a yeah. That was how you drove a little electric car mean . Its basically a golf cart, top speed 13 miles an hour. But if you lived here in washington, she lived in dupont circle. Her store was on pennsylvania avenue. And she zipped around town in her electric buggy. That was an independent way to get around. And when you read memoirs of the time, people like Alice Roosevelt longworth also drive a little electric car. It was sort of a status symbol. So back to suffrage. Sorry. Thank you for letting me take that detour. She i think there was something that felt little just not nice, a little unfeminine about the suffrage activists now and certainly once the National Womens Party Started picketing the white house in 1917, a very directly criticizing the president , edith really hated that. You know, that she wanted social cover for being part of the suffrage movement. Could have had it. There were plenty of fancy society in the movement, including people like daisy harriman, who were actively involved in the Wilson Administration. But, you know, the anti suffrage voices included a lot of women and they included women who on just a very sort of basic level said, we are the leaders of the private sphere, we the children, we run the household thats vitally important. And wanting to get involved in the public sphere, the mens sphere denigrates the importance of the private sphere, somehow undermines. How vital our role really and you know you heard an echo of that argument 50 years later with the era and i think thats where edith was coming from. There just felt something inappropriate not feminine, not the way she was raised about suffrage. But yeah, it just i you wonder how it that you could be leading this life and, forming a role yourself against social norms in so many ways and yet stopping short of this one thing and alluded to a little bit of her upbringing but tell us, you know, how she was the story of her grandmothers small town and how she was brought up. So she was born in 1872 in woodville, virginia so reconstruction era virginia with is in the southwest part of the state in the appalachian foothills and she was, as i mentioned, the sixth of nine children and also in this little house, sort of a series of storefronts on main street and with ville, with a level above them where the family lived. And so kids, the parents, two grandmothers, an aunt, a cousin, various other cousins who would stay for a while her father was judge. There would be law students coming to hang around him. It was crowded. It was crowded in there. And she very easily could have gotten lost in that shuffle. Three of the nine kids were girls and ediths mother and her mothers mother were very much up. The girls in that cult of true womanhood, victorian ideal that women should be the four principals are purity pious ness, submissiveness and domesticity that that is what an ideal woman embodies and that is what you should do. But meanwhile her other grandmother, fathers mother, grandmother bowling, singled her out as a favorite and said, you smart, you and voice your own opinions. You can have your own confidence. You know what you will achieve in this world and grandmother bowling was as as i can tell, terrifying. She was tiny and she wore full on civil war hoop skirts. And, you know, one of those morning brooches of human hair. And she sat in this rocking chair on the back of the rocking chair, the tanned skin of dead dog. I mean, it was just so gothic and weird and kind of reigned from this rocking chair thrown here. Yeah, its a whistlers mother image, right . And she terrorized her grandchildren from that rocking chair. Except, i mean, she cut terrorized edith, too and made her take care of her canaries and other things. But grandmother bolling was there telling, trust you, trust yourself. Trust your own opinions. You you have your confidence and, you know, i dont want to do a lot of second slices of somebody 150 years after their birth. But i think that those conflicting lessons explain a lot of edith, because she by nature, was much more inclined to the lessons, confidence and strength. But she felt the need to cloak them. These ideals of submissiveness and domesticity. And so throughout her life, you sort of see her relying on her own judgment and standing on her own two feet and pretending shes not right, pretending that shes doing it in the service of something else. Usually a man. This is her at 18, she just as she was leaving with phil to move to washington, tiny little waist and just look at how beautiful she is. And she has she found a way to become the woman she kind of dreamed being when she got to washington and, you know, 1890s, washington was just booming. It was the gilded age. Theres huge public works going on. If you you know, you can play sort of gilded age mansion as you drive up on the avenue these days and she didnt have any money, but she did take advantage of this sort of city on the move. Right. She was always at the theater. She became very fashionable, figured out what looked good on her. And so she kind of became the woman she imagined she could be back in with bill, more or less on her own gumption gumption. And then lets do it just a fast forward to after the white house because she had been now a caregiver for three four. Yeah. Years right her husbands is ending day two the 1920 election they leave in 1921 and he they theyre not sure where theyre going to go. Yeah actually they made a little chart and she referred this a memoir where they raided cities on friends and amenities and privacy and washington actually scored lowest because got zero in privacy. But they stayed here anyway. They were the first first family to stay here. Of course, since the obamas have done that to just the corner actually. And i think the main reason they stayed here is because it had been her home before she married him and she knew he was an invalid, even if he wasnt totally on how sick he was. She knew and she knew be here a lot longer without him than. She was with him. So they bought this house on a street that is now the Woodrow Wilson house. You can go visit. Its a museum and he only survived a couple more years. He died in 1924 and she starts in her memoir, referring to him as an invalid from that moment, as soon as she doesnt have to pretend to the public anymore. Yeah you know he never he was never going to get better and she didnt have to pretend he was. But then, you know, she lived to 1961. She lived seven years after his death because she was only 50 when he died ish. Yeah, yeah. 52. Yeah. And so she lived to be 89 now. So she stayed in that house she kind of went back to being a wealthy widow about town. She traveled europe every year and bought gorgeous clothes and as you might imagine from someone who did store has pretty good jewelry hats. She she invited every first incoming first lady to t regardless of party to sort of say, as anita was saying, this is a crazy job. Theres no Job Description. Its really hard. Im im here. I get it. And what she mainly spent her time doing was burnishing reputation. So she showed up everywhere, you know, every time someone was unveiling a statue or naming after him or announcing an award in his honor, she was there making sure that they were talking about him in the way that she thought he deserved. And, you know, its been really interesting in the last couple of years as wilsons reputation has been revised and his name has been taken off of things and people been pointing out the less heroic moments of his presidency that the myth we are taking down is, to a large degree, edith smith. She spent a lot of time creating that hero with the vision of global peace thing that we are now revisiting and this managing of his legacy. She spent a lot of time focused that, as you say, he she decided, write her own memoir, though. Yeah. And reference earlier about using that obviously as a source but theres not some obvious discrepancies there. Talk about decision to do that and what youve sort of been able to unearth from that memoir that maybe didnt quite line up a things that actually happened. So as far as i could tell everyone in that administration wrote a memoir and they started publishing them pretty much as soon as he left office. The first one started coming out in 1921, and they all made edith mann. She felt that everyone elses versions of events got something wrong or cast him in a light that wasnt flattering enough, or cast her role in an inaccurate way. So she actually started writing her own memoir, kind of in a fury on train and whole mission was to set the record straight. She had a story. She felt very strongly she needed to be told. She was actually the first first lady to write a memoir. Now its, you know, routine. You expect them to hit the shelves a couple of years after they leave the white house she her memoir is actually delightful its funny its frank she has a great eye for detail. It is also at places like provably untrue because there are so many other accounts of things. And so once you realized that she is shading the truth in places where, you know, theres another source, it makes you wonder what shes doing in, places where shes the only source. And so you really do need to take her memoir with a grain of salt. So for like her early years where no one else was writing about edith wilson in the 1880s. I couldnt necessarily verify that her grandmother was terrifying. All could do was understand what reconstruction era virginia was like and kind of put edith in a time and context. That helped me understand her world. Same with gilded age. Washington once she became sort of a figure of some status in town, then other people started to reference her. And there were, you know, other sources for her story. The other interesting thing is her memoir ends the day he dies. Her memoir ends the day dies. She actually did write more chapters, but her publisher didnt think anybody would be interested in them. And so there are these unpublished chapters of her memoir that no other biographer has had access to. But the folks who own her, the house she was born in, which has a Edith Bolling wilson birthplace on the ground floor, were incredibly generous enough. Let me have those. And so, you know, a source material that is like a holy grail, you know . Yeah, i will say not anything like hugely newsworthy or revelatory in them, but it is just more of her voice. Its more of getting to understand her. And speaking of papers, she was fiercely guarded of his papers. Yeah. In a way that you just couldnt sense the president ial records act. She managed to figure out a way to challenge anybody from publishing any letters from him, even they were to that person. So like edward house, colonel house, one of his closest advisers before edith kind of undermined him. He wanted to publish this whole, you know, correspondence between him and the president , especially during paris peace negotiations. And edith wouldnt let him publish anything that wilson written. And so his book is just his letters. And wilsons are paraphrased and she managed to exert total control and only allowed her handpicked biographer, ray baker access to any of his papers. I wanted to say before we get to some questions i wanted to ask you about what is now the Wilson Center, which we all know in washington and how that came about. Theres another great photo that yeah, i love this picture. So this is 89 year old edith. This is one of the last pictures of her in 1961 with president kennedy and what hes signing and handing the pen for is establishing Woodrow Wilson commission and. Once they decided there would be a Woodrow Wilson memorial, there was a lot of talk about would it be a traditional memorial, you know, something figurative or would it be a living memorial or something that was a memorial in kind of name. But it was active and thats thats how the Wilson Center came about. That this exploration of democracy and diplomacy was actually the best way to memorialize him. And so instead of, you know, something in marble and bronze, youve got this living Wilson Commission thats what the Wilson Center is, is its his memorial. And we also had wilson bridge, which she advocated for, but died right before it was opened. The day that day that it was supposed to be dedicated is the day she died . Yes. She the excellent political timing to die on his birthday, december 28th. So you know, hes buried at the national cathedral. Is the only president buried in washington. And and there are flowers placed on his on the anniversary of his death and i mean, on the anniversary of his birth, which is the anniversary of her death. So often therell be a great big, patriotic red, white and blue wreath and then some orchids on the side for her. And it sort looks like people are saying, we knew you acted as president , too. Its really more a coincidence of the dates. Orchids were her thing, but it does sort of include her in the memorialization of in this appropriate way. So have a couple of questions here i want to get to of them goes to that point of is asking when did the public start to discover the that she played during her husbands illness in the white house and was there reaction so it kind of trickled at the time they were edith and Harry Grayson joe tumulty. Were pretty good at the secret keeping. And anybody who did know also had a vested interest. Keeping it, keeping wilson in office. So some of his closest advisers, members of his cabinet, there were, you know, rumors as when the senators did come, eyeball him in december and there was sort of a a growing clamor, those rumors by the spring of 1920 of people saying if hes okay, let us see him and if hes not okay, we need to see that. And it was interesting actually to read some of the newspaper articles around that time because some of them very called out edith for acting as president. And not all of them in a critical way. Some of those articles said, look at what a dutiful wife she is. Look at how impressive she is keeping keeping up his, you know, his needs, her own and will say, just to clarify, the fifth amendment didnt exist. So the 24th amendment wasnt ratified till 1967. And it clarifies what happens when the president is so in the absence that theres some vague language in the constitution, but it doesnt whether the Vice President becomes acting president , becomes actual president , and more to the point, it doesnt specify who makes that call. And so anybody who might make that call, his doctor or his chief of staff, his wife, was never going to. And so edith was to step in, in a way that didnt outrage people sort of legal response if it was undemocratic certainly but she wasnt breaking a law in the way that it would be much clearer after. The 25th amendment. I will say that all those memoirs began to be published after he left office. Her role started coming a little bit more and more, more to light. And even before the stroke, it became clear that she was a back channel to talk to him. In paris, people bring stuff to her. People knew that she had his ear and so the fact that she was a Political Insider became clearer and clearer as other people wrote their own stories. And then, you know, interestingly in her obituaries, which again, werent till 1961, this chapter of her stepping in to the branch is is mentioned in all of them. Of course it is. But again, not universal, only critically. There obituaries that praised her for doing what she needed to do and she stayed in democratic president ial politics attending conventions and. Yeah. I mean i bet she she never gave speeches. She did go to the 1928 democratic convention. Her name was floated a couple times as a potential Vice President ial women that got in the vote in 1920. There was some talk about, you know, if were going to put a woman on the ticket, who better than the most famous democratic woman we have . But she she never took up that mantle. She not interested in playing that game once he was gone. We have another question here. Are there aspects of Edith Wilsons legacy that you see reflected in other recent first ladies . Sure. First of all, theres a lot, you know, as weve now said several times its a really weird job. And every first lady has to figure it out for herself and she might look to her predecessors. But to the degree that we sort expect the first lady to reflect to ideal womanhood in some way what we think of as ideal american womanhood is a moving target. And so every woman needs to invent it for own time. Edith was good at the sort of public example part of first lady when she had sheep mowing the white house lawn during world war one to free up the landscape to work in the war. And then auctioned off the world to benefit the red cross, things like that. That sort of made public example of the role. And then when she went to paris with him and their record, the better part of six months, suddenly it elevated the role to an International Stage just by showing up largely. She was in every with european royalty. She was on front page of every newspaper. She was at buckingham palace. She was right there on the stage when he was getting the key to the city. Whatever was. And so that kind of Public Diplomacy role became much more and accepted. You know the first lady was barely known outside of washington, let alone outside of the nation before edith played that role. This is a picture of them in paris. They were in an open carriage. And, you know, wilson hailed as the liberator and people threw bouquets of flowers them. And they were so buried by the flowers that they had keep sort of shoving them out of the carriage in order to make sure that they werent literally buried. But pictures like this were on the front page of every newspaper in the world, and the first lady had just never know first lady had been that prominent. Could have been that prominent, but she also played that role that many first ladies have since of making it all easier for him. He was shy and he was definitely one of those people who hated to be seen kind of putting a toe wrong. He didnt like to ask, whats the protocol here . Where are supposed to go . He just wanted to be seen as. Perfect. And she because she trusted her opinion and didnt, you know, had kind of barreled her way positions that she was ill prepared for her whole life would say, you know, are we dressing for dinner . Anyone wearing gloves should use her terrible, selftaught french and just, you know, make everybody feel at ease and charmed and it so that he could be that standoffish, superior. This is a good question. Think to end on from olivia who ask why do you think Edith Wilsons history is largely unknown to the average person . And why is it important for people to learn about her . And then i guess i would add on to that why you wanted to actually write this book and undertake this project. Yeah, i love this question. So i think one of the main reasons that we dont know more is edith herself. Edith was spent a lot of time minimizing what she did, and when she did to being to what she called stewardship. She couched it entirely in terms of being the mrs. Woodrow wilson she could be that she was fighting for her husband and should be. And so i think that that version of her was bought by a lot of people that felt appropriate and she couldnt possibly have, you know, any real power. She was really just helping, standing by her man. I also do think that stories like this expose the limits of know a kind of hall of fame model of history if if were only talking about the person who signed the legislation then or the person that led the battalion, then you only admit history being made by the people who were able to hold those positions of power who were white men, and other people affected. Social change. And its not even like she was there to kind of a thing. Its just broadening your definition of how happens and understanding that its not always in the hands of the people who rise to the hall of fame level. And that is why i found her story fascinating, is that she was complicated. She did some things that were not admirable. She was not a hero. She was not a villain. She was not a she was not a saint. She was all of those, as are all of us. She was, you know, a real live, three dimensional, complicated human. And the way she affects it history was a complicated. Three dimensional way. And then she hit her own tracks. And so its a story that feels to me very first of all, its just dramatic and fascinating and all of those things. But it also just makes us rethink who gets to make who gets to tell what making history is. And i think all those things are due for a rethink. Well thank you for writing this book. It was terrific read. I encourage everybody, get a copy of it and thank you, becca, for spending some time with us tonight. We appreciate it. And thank you to anita and