in an operation of an abraham lincoln tells the story of that speech through the eyes and ears of those who witnessed it, including walt witman, frederick douglass and john willick's boots. next, the author talks about that portentous day in march 1865 with frank williams of the lincoln forum, which shows that this conversation and provided the video. >> it's good to be with our four members and to have you at akon with us. this is an important occasion, i think for many reasons. you being recently retired from the providence journal, which was around in lincoln's day and commended him for his gettysburg declaration. and i'm glad that the tradition continues at least with you, so when we think of the second inaugural, we think of the fact that for the first four years of his administration, the country and himself were scarred by civil war, which is probably the worst that could happen to any country, especially a republic. and the deaths were over 650, 000, at least by that time and wounded were double that number. so, i wonder and i think the audience and our foreign members wonder why you would undertake this project of the second inaugural in every drop of blood, a wonderful book when there were two great books recently, ronald whites, the lincoln created speech and changed state cash, also another rhode island are talking about lincoln's moral vision, the second inaugural address. why would you undertake this project for a another book on the second inaugural address? >> well, first thank you chief justice for having me here. on that, maybe i can start with one of lincoln stories told of an ugly man riding through the woods when he met a lady on horseback and he waited for her to pass, but instead she scrutinized before saying, well freelance ache, he were the best men ever saw. yes madam but i can't hope he replied no i suppose not she said. but you might stay at home. and i suppose i can relate to that story. feel like a bit of an interloper and scholarship. i might have stated home to, i'm not an academic with a ph.d. and although i've studied lincoln since i was a kid, i was as harold mentioned, a baseball historian with 41 years in journalism, including a stint at washington correspondent. so, an addition to the two outstanding books you mentioned, there were over 16,000 books published about lincoln. that's more than any human being, accept jesus christ. so i guess like the ugly man, i might have stayed at home. but i thought there was a gripping story story about lincoln that had never been told this way. and the book doesn't just go into the speech, puts the reader right on the ground alongside some of the key participants. i've always been struck by the famous weaving between the in and out of the story that day so what i did i wanted to focus on them as well as on lincoln. i think their stories and their perceptions of the war really takes us out of the realm of distractions and into understanding that war in a really visceral way through the thoughts and improve emotions of these people and they're all wonderful people and very perceptive. and i think this approach also brings lincoln down to earth. ific tragedy in the he's not some ethereal bigger. he was a actual president in a actual world, he was dealing with a tragedy, and the greatest threat to the nation in americas history. to understand the speech you have to understand the immense afrin that was caused. i think this context makes his words appear all the more poignant. the book is structured quite differently. the book is set 24 hours from the eve of the inauguration, through the following evening, the evening after the inauguration, and it moves almost hour by hour minute by minute and i think that approach takes the reader on down to the ground. you are not at some view 30,000 feet up. you're there in the grubber political atmosphere where no one really knows what happens next and in a sense that is his admission that neither he nor anyone else could see how terrible the visionary could be. this is a very different approach from the other books. >> i think that's correct. my reading of your great book. but what was the message that lincoln was giving or trying to give through his second shortest inaugural address in our history. certainly not gloating over the north effective win to be announced with the signing. so what do you think both sublimely and directly that lincoln was trying to say here or did say. >> this is a extraordinary speech because there's no element of even saying to the north, great job, you have got us through this. we are going to bring the country together, this was amazing tone. i can't imagine any other politician doing this. not in my experience. lincoln is instead saying that this war was a curse brought on to the nation by the sin of slavery which is a extraordinary thing for anyone to say at that time. he argued that both sides were north and south, we're culpable in the situation. some people still don't accept that, the north and south were involved in slavery. he called for soul searching rather than self righteousness. he's argued that this is the only way that a nation could be healed. and i think what lincoln was trying to do was tap into the one thing that both north and south still had in common, which was a very strong christian faith, belief that gods will played out in the life of people. he strive to argue that god had a different plan than either the north or south. and he argued, this war is far deadlier, more destructive, more revolutionary than he had predicted. he said that gods will is that simply very disappear. whatever either side thought about it. he admitted that he himself had been wrong about this. it is hard to express how radically different that this was the approach that others at the time we're taking, even religious leaders thought that punishment was necessary to prevent future secession attempts. lincoln called for malice toward none and charity for all. i think in lincoln's view after all of the suffering it was time for americans to stop thinking about self righteousness, which is very difficult to do. the only way to move forward was to recognize that everyone could do wrong and to treat each other with mercy. i don't see any politicians doing that. >> do you think that the people got this message? >> as lincoln himself said, i did not expect this to be immediately popular. i think that the reaction broke down along partisan lines. republican papers were praising. it democratic papers lacerated the speech. i think very few editors initial reaction to the speech recognized that this was such a profound and historic statement about the war. and also really a work of world literature. some of the papers in england came close. the london spectator wrote that the short paper for solemnity has had no equal time. no statesman ever uttered words that could seal so deep of wisdom and so truly simplicity. that's sort of touches on it. nobody was yet ready to chisel and grant it. on the side of a lincoln memorial. >> >> that's true, i commend our audience to harold's latest book, the audience versus the press for a real explanation of just the fourth estate, and what effect that they have had on our history. now as you pointed out the newspapers of the day were identified by party or with their interest were, abolitionist papers, democratic, free soil and so on. something that many others would think that today's newspapers should also do. so did that have an influence on how this was presented to our public? >> oh yes. the papers were really divided. the democratic papers were really offended by the tone that link into, believe it or not. they blasted him for assuming to interpret the will of god, saying that this war was god postulate. -ing he didn't really say it. postulate id that this war may have been gods punishment of america for the scent of slavery. the new york world for instance said that lincoln's theology smack so strongly at the dark ages, hold prices politics. it lamented believe it or not the pity of. it that the divided nation should neither be sustained in the crisis of agony by words of wisdom, nor cheered with words of hope. so they found nothing of wisdom or hope about what lincoln had to say. the daily ohio statesman of columbus finally addressed this. chilly injury was the day it was delivered. it was a rainy morning. the iowa free trader said who may any mortal man the decrease of god. the chicago times which was a very bitter enemy of the lincoln administration wrote we did not conceive it possible that even mr. lincoln could produce a paper so loose joint, not alone in literary construction but in its ideas, sentiments, it's graphs, he has outdone himself by the side of mediocrity superb. you can see the democratic papers were not impressed. they did not feel that link in, his appeal to god meant anything other than he was presuming to interpret the will of god. in some papers he even ran parodies of the speech, because they thought it was so ridiculous. >> before we get into the historical figures that you describe so well in your book, what do you have to say about a comparison if one can actually be made at all between lincoln's first inaugural address. really more of the lawyer incoming president than someone who had just finished one term in office? >> the initial inaugural address lincoln wanted to stress that he was not an enemy of the south. he would not interfere with slavery where it existed. he would protect what was viewed as the constitutional right to slavery in most states. and this of course offended fredericton glistens and others very deeply but lincoln wanted to make clear, as far as he could that this coming war, which was -- he still hoped would income but it was pretty clear it was coming, he hoped to make to say that he is not bringing on this war. he is protecting the constitution but he's going to proceed with what the people elected him to do, which was to use his authority and try to block the spread of slavery in the territories. the second inauguration was a completely different matter. it had been for years, just terrible warfare. the suffering is almost unimaginable. and so, he is coming to that, trying to say, we have to move on from this point which can be vengeful. we can't we thought vengeance would only harden the south. we thought it would make it impossible to bring the country together, he wanted to do what he could to encourage that there in political leaders to come back to the fold and so it was a very different speech. >> in no white, as you were discussing this and what do you think lincoln meant and his delivery of the second inaugural, i'm thinking that that's would mediators to. a lot of that and lincoln was a creek mediator himself in practice, but that's what we try to do is what he tried to do, which was to remove the enemies from the parties. and i think he was trying to do this in a national way, rather than a mediated doing it among a small number of people. so, you know you mentioned so many great historical figures in every drop of blood. and, can you tell us why you chose some of them and what they represented, like walt witman and frederick douglass and so on? >> i mean, i chose people who tell you a lot about that day and about america at that moment. walt witman is covering the events of the new york times. he is the poet who wrote leaves of grass which were considered a dirty book by such people and then many others. but he's been in washington for years working with wounded soldiers in the hospitals. bringing little gifts for them, writing letters for them. trying to ease their suffering in ways he could. and he brings a very feeling approach towards that day and i'm very struck by what he unveiled. fredericton bliss, he was there the inaugural. the tested linkedin earlier in the war but he attended the speech and shook lincoln's hand that night at a reception at the white house. john vote was their stalking lincoln, i think he is crazy but that point. i think he's -- he represents sort of the hatred of many in the south toward lincoln, viewing him as an absolute tyrant who had to be removed because he was just destroying everything that was lawful and could about america. salmon peach ace is swearing lincoln in as the chief justice, which lincoln had put on the court the previous december, i believe. and he had plotted against lincoln for the republican nomination and he desperately wanted to be president. and there he is wearing lincoln in. clara barton, she had been reduced to tears trying to get in to see lincoln that week. but she is at the events that meets him at the white house reception. you get the great photographer, alexander gardner taking pictures of lincoln as he delivers the speech, which are just wonderful and precious records of that event. you can actually see lincoln reading this address, which is just wonderful. andrew johnson is a gutsy man. he was the military governor of tennessee but he was there as the vice president. the new vice president embarrassingly trump that day. so i think those are all interesting and important players in the lincoln story. and gives the reader deeper sense of what was going on that day. >> and i agree. i think those who've read and i hope many do, all of those with us. to read every drop of blood. so there is some detail like john will expose really stocking lincoln in the capital while lincoln was on the way to the unalterable platform outside of the capital and having been stopped by someone who was important in the administration so, can you describe that high drama? >> yes, evidently, booth got into the inaugural events of the capital which fredericton glass. we've got into those because he's baiting the daughter of an abolitionist, new hampshire senator and apparently, he got a pass which -- who get into the event and while lincoln. after the ceremonies and the senate chamber, which included johnson's rather drunken rant. they all marched out to the platform outside and lincoln led the way. while lincoln was marching along, this young man slipped into the line and was right behind lincoln. benjamin brown french, who was sort of overseeing these activities actually saw this young man and told the stop to him, had him stopped. and they questioned him and he was very hotheaded, very angry, he questioned be and they sort of let him go. and six weeks later, after lincoln assassination, frank recognized in the picture of booth, the young man he had stopped in the line. so, there is strong reason to believe both wanted to pull something that day and the ultimate stage for him. he had played prudish who killed julia caesar in the capital and perhaps he had a similar vision for that day. he later told a friend, i was very close to lincoln and i might have killed him. >> well you know, there is that great photo of the inaugural. i'm >> not sure if that's booth in that photo. some people think it is, some people think it isn't. he sort of has his hair parted and he kind of looks more like edgar allen po than booth. but, he was definitely where he said he was, near lincoln and heard the speech and that's probably where he -- because the crowd poured out onto the steps and it was rather chaotic. i mean, mary lincoln had trouble getting up there and i don't think she even heard the speech. >> what's about walt witman who many think, of course, his greatest american poet, his leaves of grass notwithstanding as being described as -- he was a special correspondent for new york times and he did a splendid job, as you pointed out, and describing the setting in setting the scene. but did he really say anything worth remembering about the address itself? with the his fellow journalists. and then he describes the parade going to the capitol and from the capital. and when he describes linco he was in the capital building early that morning, with his fellow journalists, he describes the parade going from the capital through the capital. when he describes lincoln's speech he describes the setting more than the speech itself. how he saw venus in the sky, how he said the sun come forth, he gives some very impressionistic views of that moment he describes lincoln waiting in his carriage, with todd, lincoln's son tad, 11, running and jumping into the carriage. he describes lincoln's face. he describes, he looked very much worn and tired, vast responsibilities, intricate questions and demands of life and death cut deeper than ever on his round face. all the, goodness tenderness, sadness, shrewdness way underneath the boroughs. i feel very privileged but a great poet was there to tell us about lincoln in that moment. and i think that witman was very far ahead, the rest of the country recognized this almost mythic aspect of lincoln as the suffering man who had come through us all. >> yes. and what about frederick douglass? and the evolving relationship between the president and this great writer and orator? and how that all came together. both during the inauguration, and after the reception in the white house that evening. >> douglas is probably the key character in the book, besides lincoln. i think the narrative of the arc of the -- is the books subplot. i think it also suggests how the publics attitude towards lincoln changed over time. douglas eventually had great contempt for lincoln as a politician. he thought he was working for the right people. but he came to see overtime lincoln's political skills and passionate hatred of slavery were essential to the discord -- destruction of that. in his first integrations, he struck out of the mud in a second, ones they wouldn't let black americans into the capital. he was stunned that lincoln was to fighting the war as gods will when slavery ended. douglas said lincoln's words struck me at the time and seem to contain ever more vital substance that i have ever seen contained in a space so narrow. i class my hands if the utterance. at the night that he -- he was thrown out two times, he finally got in. lincoln greeted him. there is my friend douglas. when asked his opinion in the speech he said it was sacred. so douglas came to see that lincoln is slowly plotting methodical means of moving the country forward, it was crucial to three or 4 million black americans. i think that is a very poignant moment when douglas discovers, oh my gosh, this guy is saying exactly what this war is about, it's about ending slavery. that was not the overarching interpretation. >> you did and amend some amount of research for this book. and it shows. did you come across anything in your sources that surprise to you? >> chief justice, i think what surprised me the most was how bitterly heated lincoln was and he got it from all sides. south of course knew him to be a terrible tyrant, but so did so many democrats to the north. they viewed him as somebody who would trash the constitution, he shouldn't put people in jail, constitutional liberties and so forth. in lincoln's own party, republicans thought he was too weak. he wouldn't impose as well on the south the way it should be. so he was, i mean lincoln had to chart a very narrow path through this bitter antagonism to advance his well. i' that is what he did. i think a lot of this, we revere lincoln. the whole country does. i've been struck in the political season how much lincoln is referred to on all sides. when we revere him the way that we do, we get the sense of how people at the time felt. a lot of people, very, very few people recognized his greatness at the time. that was very striking. i think a lot of this after his assassination instantly became a martyr. it was definitely politically incorrect to criticize him. so a lot of people who had been critics of him immediately tone down their antagonism, how much in history how much he was despised. i think it is important to go back to the endless newspaper accounts at the time. the diaries, accounts, everything else to view how widely he was disliked and how little understood he was. he was considered this fumbling guy who got through the war. in time, people came to say the sky, the decisions he made, his insurance against endless attacks on him were all part of this greatness. >> of course, there were some critics especially in congress that were somewhat accepting of lincoln's death as bringing in a president now who would be tougher on the south. and thus, affecting the future of reconstruction. >> that was striking as well. some people actually thought, we can move forward now, just the way that you said, frank, some people thought johnson was great as vice president, a tough man, he will strengthen lincoln's backbone and so forth which is a very weird way of looking at it because i don't know of anyone with greater backbone than lincoln. you're right. it is horrifying to see some of the comments after lincoln's death. >> and can you elaborate on, you have already described a kind of man lincoln was in the way of his greatness, his resilience and insurance against criticism for example. are there other thoughts that came to your mind as a result of your writing and your book, that would describe lincoln? >> it's hard to say it because lincoln is unlike anyone ever i have come across. he has a. coldness and uncanny ability to step out of himself and his emotions that his political allies knew the facts with almost chilling rationality. over and over he does that. he works with former enemies. he keeps his eyes on the prize. in the book i mentioned the official protest to the election of john. hail -- lincoln says you may have more of that feeling of personal me,r the past against me. now as any of us with a public life in any way, no or exposed on twitter, that's that's a -- hard thing to do. but i think that ability was crucial to sustain the nation when the war the other thing about lincoln he had this loyalty to his core beliefs is virtually unshakable. he was slow to come to an opinion, but he stubbornly held to his values. after he thought them through and i think he used pragmatism to move his values forward all the time. i think his two key ones obviously were his hatred of slavery and his love of this country. and lincoln put it this way. i'm slow to learn and slow to forget that which i have learned. my mind is like a piece of steel very hard to scratch anything on and almost impossible after after you get it there to rub it out. before we get to racism and what people perceive as lincoln as a racist do you also believe as many of us do that that lincoln was so enamored of this mystical sense of union that ted widmer spoke about before you and and harold was discussing with ted about this at the declaration of independence and and i believe as a jurist that that and many respects lincoln a valued the declaration of independence more than the constitution which at the time validated slavery or permitted the continuance of slavery. so do you do you have a sense about lincoln's view of the declaration as our vision? oh yeah i mean throughout his career he writes about the declaration the idea that all of us are equal on have equal rights. and he believes that extends to all human beings including black people. he was he was not ambivalent about slavery. he hated it. he believed it was a stain on america and its founding and i think one of the reasons he it so much. was and he said this it allowed the enemies of freedom to question the founding. and that's something that those who despise america are doing even today? but he believed it could not be. you believed, you know, he believed slavery could not be removed immediately from the places. it was less great disaster occur to the country as it did. but he wanted the country to return to what he believed. the founders intended which was that slavery was a moral wrong. it must be endured where it was, but it must not spread to territories that later became. states and he thought the declaration applied to all human beings so is course was to try to follow what the founders had set up. to view slavery as a moral wrong to leave it where it was but to leave it in a condition that it would eventually fade out and people would move away from it. he would not budge on the on the question that slavery was immoral. and he that's that was as great. opposition to douglas's idea or popular sovereignty he wanted he believed that was saying slavery is something that could be voted up or voted down and had no moral implication. and lincoln believed no it we have to stick to the idea that slavery is morally wrong it's a violation of america's values and it has to go. we're getting close to question time ed but sort of in a wrap-up we're all influenced and protected and mentored by older people i think and that includes lincoln and you are at work on a on a book relating to some that had great influence on him when you discuss the convention the republican convention at the wigwam in chicago in 1860 do you have thoughts about some of the people like david davis and others that that influenced the young and middle-aged lincoln well lincoln had friends. he had people who gave him advice, but i think he was kind of alone. i think he relied on his own judgment far more than most people do. i mean he lincoln greatly admired henry clay he considered him a great patriot was able to sue the ranker and promote the development of america and he had people in his early life who helped them in various ways teaching him in advancing him. but he was unusual in the way. he listened to advice he gather information but very much act on his own he rarely just followed the advice of anyone, you know during the war he often overruled overruled the majority of his cabinet. his friend david davis, who as you mentioned helped him get elected at the 1860 convention. said lincoln was a peculiar man. he never asked my advice on any questions. sometimes i would talk to him and advise him he would listen. and you know this was this was lincoln during the war he's particularly close to williams seward you respected his intelligence and political savvy but he also admired seward's political manager. thurlow weed, but i think lincoln's lincoln may have gotten some of his best advice from the people lined up at the white house every day to meet him on issues. he would sit there for hours talking to people coming to the white house to bring problems with them and he called these meetings public opinion baths. and he drew those visitors out questions that helped him understand shifting political ground. and that informed his actions as president. this has been terrific before we turn it over to john jonathan white. are of vice chair for questions good luck in your new book ed and thank you very much for your participation this morning or john you thank you mr. chief justice john. thank you. thank you frank. thank you ed. this has been a wonderful conversation and i'm gonna ask the first question. it comes from david. and he asks without microphones how many people could actually hear lincoln deliver his speech. how close did you have to be to hear him? and could the people behind him hear what he was saying? yeah, i mean, you're right without microphones. it was very difficult to hear. i would think a large percentage of the crowd could not even hear him now lincoln spoke in this sort of high piping voice and he spoke very deliberately and that would carry his voice. a fair distance, but this is out in the open. it's it's sort of a somewhat windy day and he's out there just reading this so lincoln. obviously he relied on the telegraph to spread this message all across the country almost instantly. and but very few could hear them in person. i think one of the reasons lincoln wrote such a tight and concise speech was. it could get into every paper in the country in half a column of tight and it would spread his message that way and people he understood people want to read a lengthy. document is as much as something. very brief concise and getting his message across in a time way. this question comes from edward epstein and this is sort of a follow-up in a way on your discussion of frederick douglass. can you talk about the presence of african-american in the crowd that day and in the years after 1865 did any of the african-american's in the crowd talk about their experiences hearing lincoln and what was their experience like just being there? yeah, well douglas wrote about it. obviously there were many. there were many african-americans in the crowd. this was commented upon widely in the newspapers. many black women were their best dresses. there was this was the first real showing of black americans showing that they revered lincoln for what he had done to. to free their people and it's quite moving. really i mean where there were many many black people in the audience that day they couldn't get into the capitol building even as i mentioned. they were kept outside but they came there in the rain and the mud and they stood there for hours to listen to lincoln. um the new york herald writes about them in rather racist manner and talks about the soldiers at the end of the speech perhaps reflecting their disgust with lincoln's message that the war was about slavery sort of hustling the black people out of the out of you know away from the capital in a very rough way. so but i you know. i'm not. i did not come across many black reminiscences of being in the crowd that day but i did come across many accounts of it and i think douglas's is the most moving account of it of any of them. i can actually think of one thing that sort of speaks to the question as well. i i remember reading in a wpa slave narrative from 1937 a former slave who said that i can't remember if it was a man or woman but said that he or she was there at the inauguration and shook hands with lincoln. but yeah, there's not a whole lot of things written after the war that give that sort of firsthand experience of african-american's in the crowd, right? right and but but there there are descriptions of black people just coming in. they're getting in a cart and so forth and coming in is many as they could into washington to see the speech that was that was and and there were black soldiers all over the place right this is this is a new completely new thing in american history basically blacks had not attended these inaugurals and great numbers in the past. and here they were showing their admiration and gratitude to lincoln yeah, i think you're exactly right about that. to go to the other side of the spectrum we've gotten a number of questions related to your comments about john wilkes booth and so i'll just sort of go through a few of them david carney asks, do we know if booth was armed that day? well his roommate who was a fell at fellow actor said he a gun but i we don't know he may have had a knife on them. we don't know if he was armed. it's you know, we were talking in the previous presentation about security in those days, and it was nothing. it was virtually i mean shocking. i mean they this guy sneaks in behind the president they let him go after he argues with them. so we don't know what link what booth had on and that day. but his his roommate was saying he was acting very strangely that day. on the bed and bed and sort of talking to himself. when he came in the room, which is you don't really want to see that. and so we don't we don't know what what booth had but i i i agree with some of the people looking at this after the fact. thinking that late booth had some pretty had a plan that day to do something terrible, maybe yeah, john w. not me another john w asks if any of link of boosts co-conspirators, were there george at sarat or lewis powell? were they there with him watching? well, the the evidence is inconclusive on that. i you know the famous photo collector said he spotted them in the crowd and so forth, but i don't think that's that's been proven or that's accurate. he did he did meet with. some friends of his who were part of the conspiracy. i mean that i write in the book that weekend. that he was engaged in very serious discussions with john surratt before on the evening before the inauguration i think something was planned that day for a long time they had talked about kidnapping lincoln and spirit i mean spiriting him away a kid conceive of that around me inauguration. yeah, i mean, that would not not have worked but maybe when he was going to the soldiers home and that sort of thing. lincoln had been shot at while riding to the soldiers home alone. one and they found his hat a bullet hole through it. and lincoln beg them not to let mary know that fact. that's right. so he thought lincoln dismiss it as though this sort of wayward shot, but they were very very lax about this fact, then it's it's mind-blowing almost. for those attendees who are interested in the kidnapping. we actually have a photograph of the handcuffs that john wilkes booth owned in the current issue of the lincoln forum bulletin, so when you get your fall 2020 issue in the mail, you'll see a picture of those one last question about booth this comes from robert frost, and he said he'd never heard a historian doubt that it's booth in the photograph before. can you speak a little bit to why you doubt that that booth in the photograph at the inauguration? oh, well, i'm not an expert in that but i i mean looking at it. he doesn't look to me to be booth, but possibly i may have parted his hair the wrong way. i don't know this this is discussions about this among people who are far more qualified i am but i i would tend to doubt that particular person was him. i think there's somebody else in the crowd there who looks more like him in some of there were series of shots by alexander gardner that scene including before lincoln got up and made the address and i think there's a figure with a top hat there who looks a lot more like booth than the one we traditionally see but it's you know, we all want to see booth there because we want confirmation of that. he was there and so forth, but i think i think the evidence suggests. he was there based on what he told to his friends. yeah, you know, i've always tried to zoom in on those photographs and see if i can spot frederick douglass and i have not been able to yet, but i would love to see or wouldn't that be great. it's it's i tell you though. it's it's just such a treasure to have those photos of that event. i mean i'm always blown away. but yeah, i said this before i'm always blown away by that image of lincoln actually reading the speech and we get to see it. all these years later and that is a moment of american history that's right can you this question comes from chuck can you talk a little bit about how you can square lincoln's strong references to god in the address with the general sense that he was irreligious throughout most of his life well a lot of the book deals with that issue so i probably can't do it in a really short hand version but lincoln lincoln although he was not religious in the sense of attending church, and he had skepticism about the new testament and some of the miracles and all that stuff. he was he i think he questioned the divinity of jesus christ, i think. i think that. it's not absolutely determined but i think that is in line with him, but he did have this sense. that life is full of these. things we cannot control that. we're it's a very fatalistic view that goes right back to his parents teachings. and the hard shell baptist church there in indiana. and the lincoln's favorite line. from hamlet was there's a divinity that shapes our ends rough hue them how we will? in other words god has a plan that we cannot we all we can do is rough you our lives. we cannot control. these things that that seem to be god's will taking control of of our situations, so that's i think that sort of bitter fatalism. was part of lincoln's nature and his character and that helped him survive during the war. he believed there must be some divine reason for this why this war goes on and on like this. any wrestled with that idea during the war for years and it came out out in this in this address. yeah, that's right. well, this has been a wonderful talk. i want to thank you again ed. i want to actually close not with a question, but a comment that we got from melmore who says listening to ed speak on on his book makes me wish he had started writing about lincoln earlier in his career. and so i was glad to hear you. tell the judge that you're working on a new project related to lincoln. and so i want to remind all of our our viewers at home that you can order ed's book every drop of blood as well as frank's book lincoln's lesson lincoln lessons reflections on america's greatest leader from the gettysburg heritage center and if you order it from them you get it with a signed book plate made special for the 25th anniversary of the lincoln forum. you can click on the link in the chat box on zoom here to get directly to their page or youi'h us today and we welcome all of our friends at c-span along with our audience. as we begin a session of the