Wells. 2 00 p. M. Eastern, virginia democratic senator, mark warner, and democratic representative Lauren Underwood. And republican congressman will hurd of texas will talk about the progress that capitol hill has made investigating Cyber Security threats. Watch live coverage on cspan3. Jamie raskin is with us, the congressman sitting on the committee. Congressman, welcome to journal this morning. Good morning. We started the program asking viewers about the president s remarks last night on facebook. I dont know if youve had a chance to see any of that. Any reaction to that . Youre talking about the 45minute diatribe rant about the election . Yes. Well, look, the president has painted himself into a corner here. Theres been a complete divorce from reality. Every election official involved in administration of this election, infer counting the ballots, has rejected the president s outlandish claims about there being some kind of systemic or massive fraud. Even attorney general barr yesterday disassociated himself finally from the president s claims. The scary thing is how many people, within the republican party, are unwilling to distance themselves from these fanciful allegations. But theyve been rejected in court in nearly 40 cases now. Essentially the litigation strategy has done nothing other than prove that this was about the most secure and confident and accurate election that weve had in decades in america. The other story coming up in the last couple of days about reports that the president allegedly investigating issuing pardons to his family and others. A head line from usa today, can trump pardon himself . Justice Department Says no. Courts havent weighed in. Congressman raskin, youre a former constitution law professor at American University in washington, d. C. Whats your thought on the constitutionality of that . Well, the department of justice has long rejected the proposition that the president could grant himself a pardon. The language of the constitution about granting a pardon, or reprieve suggests why its been absurd idea. You cant pardon yourself. And we can look to no less an authority than James Madison who said in the federalist papers 10 that no man may be a judge in his own case because it would impair his judgment and corrupt his integrity. So, i mean, thats a cardinal principle that runs through our constitution. No president has ever attempted it before. Which isnt to say this president wouldnt, because everything seems pretty unprecedented about this administration. But i think if he attempted to pardon himself for federal offenses hes committed, ultimately, this would be defense that he would try to interpose against prosecution. Ironically, the same people who said, no, you cant prosecute a president while hes in office, you have to wait until later are saying, of course, the president can pardon himself. All of that cuts against the basic principle that nobody is above the law in america. We dont have immunity or impunity for executive Branch Officials thats characteristic of a Banana Republic not a constitutional democracy. We welcome your calls and commen commen comments for congressman raskin. Representative raskin, one of the reasons we wanted you on the program this morning was to talk about a piece you published with several other house colleagues on cnn a couple of weeks ago, the headline of which was Trump Administration preserve evidence of what youve done, penned by you, congressman sean kaston, and others. Tell us what your concern is here. Well, theres a legal obligation under the federal records act of 1950 and the president ial records act of 1978 for the president to preserve all documents within the white house relating to his official duties. And this is now a basic principle of our democracy that the documents that a president creates or that the executive branch creates must be preserved because they are not the personal private property of the president or his lieutenants. Theyre the public property of the people thats what it means for us to be a democracy. The people own the government and everything that takes place within it, so we have to have transparency. There are dozens of investigative requests and demands that have been made by house rules committees over the last several years that have been rebuffed by this unprecedented categorical stonewalling of the Trump Administration. So were putting all of these executive Branch Officials on notice that they are legally bound to preserve and not destroy, not delete, and not in any way otherwise impair documents that are created during the course of the Trump Administration. Including documents that we have sought unsuccessfully against the Trump Administration as theyve continued their administrative stone wall. Another effort along that line is a lawsuit announced this week on tuesday by the citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington. Trump, kushner white house sued by watchdog to prevent illegal deletion of official emails and whats app messages. For these things like whats app, not a part of government communications, how troublesome is that that those things may not be able to be trackable in terms of finding records and keeping those records . Well, electronic records are records within the meaning of the federal records act in the president ial records act, so they may not be deleted or destroyed or disposed of. They have to be preserved and maintained, theyre the property of the american people, and the government of the United States. So thats extremely problematic that theyre thinking about doing it, but legally its very simple. Those also must be preserved. You can go to jail for three years for mutilating or destroying federal records in this way. And we wanted to make sure everybody understands that. We hope the inspectors general within each department are reinforcing the legal duty that executive Branch Officials have to maintain all of the documents of public actions that have been taken. One more question before we get to calls. You sit on the coronavirus subcommittee in the house. The headline this morning about the Paycheck Protection Program says that 1 of the borrowers got a quarter of the relief money. The Paycheck Protection Program, the centerpiece of the federal governments relief efforts. Congressman raskin, whats your subcommittee, what is congress in general doing to do oversight on how the money was spent . Were conducting oversight on how the administration received distribution of the funds and well continue to go after these questions. Yesterday it was reported that multiple trump and Jared Kushner business entities received ppp money. And now today theres the headline that youre describing about a very tiny percentage of the overall number, i think its 1 getting more than a quarter of the funds, up to 10 million. So we want to look to see exactly how these funds were distributed and we want to make sure that, Going Forward and i hope we will be Going Forward with another package of covid relief because our people are desperate across the country for more unemployment aid, more aid to Small Businesses, obviously for the Public Health investments and for state and local aid as more than a million state and local employees have been laid off in this economic calamity. But i hope that Going Forward we will make sure that the money is distributed fairly and in a broad based way so it reaches the smallest businesses that really need it the most rather than the biggest Small Businesses that are wired or well connected. On that coronavirus relief, you mentioned the speaker yesterday indicating her support for the bipartisan package announced in the senate, the 908 billion package. Are you getting word that that may come up as something you can take up before the end of the session . I think there is gathering momentum for it. Obviously its tough, bill, since were not physically all together for everybody to speak. But in terms of the confiden conversations that i hear people having online and on the phone, people are passionate for making this happen before the end of the year. Of course, we passed the heroes act more than seven months ago now and weve been waiting for the senate to act and the fact that there is a bipartisan effort within the senate to make something happen is good news. And i think those of us in the house are willing to meet them on the basis of some common ground. If its really getting aid to our people. The people who need it the most. We go to calls now and hear first from tim in florida, republican line. Yeah. Its kind of ironic that mr. Raskin was talking about that you cannot destroy Government Property and documentation, but kind of frankly thats what Hillary Clinton did, but i guess they forgot about that. But what really bothers me is he sits here and talks about this coronavirus and the stimulus, bill, okay. I got family members that own a Small Business in alabama and they are struggling to make ends meet while you guys sit up there in washington d. C. , drawing your salaries, and you sit there and bicker about how much stimulus, what needs to go to the states, okay. Its my understanding that if the states are in such a financial need, they can go and borrow the money from the treasury department, then they have to pay it back. Okay. That doesnt have anything to do with helping the american people. You guys have drug your feet for probably the last six months on this stuff. And you guys want to play politics up there when youre playing politics with peoples lives. Tim well hear from congressman raskin. Yeah. Thank you for your comments. Im sure theyre directed at Mitch Mcconnell because the house of representatives passed the heros act seven months ago to continue the ppp up money, aid to Small Businesses as well as the 600 a week in Unemployment Insurance that we have for the tens of millions of people thrown out of work in the economic crisis caused by covid19 and the administrations lethal incompetence and recklessness dealing with it. We have a new administration trying to engage in a transition and develop for the first time a nationwide strategy to defeat the disease and to distribute the vaccine. Obviously this outgoing president is obsessed with his fantasies that he somehow won the election and is doing nothing to aid the country as now more than 200,000 people a day are coming down with covid19. And we lead the world in covid19 case count. We lead the world in covid19 death count. We lead the world in covid19 disinformation and propaganda. So were going to need a complete reset in terms of covid19 policy and we have the chance with the Biden Harris Administration to move forward. I agree with the caller, i think hes taking to task Mitch Mcconnell and the republicans who have sat on their hands and done nothing for more than six months in terms of continuing the aid to the american people. On the Trump Administration records, the question for you from michael in portland who asks, it has been noted elsewhere that the president ial records act and the federal records act are, quote, toothless, as their enforcement relies on proving intent. Is this so . If so, what can congress do . Its true the criminal portions do rely on intent, intent to destroy. Thats why were putting everybody on notice right now, they have a legal obligation to preserve all the documents and to the extent theyre deleting documents or destroying computers or getting rid of records, thats a criminal act. And in any event, the civil obligations apply regardless of intent. So nobody who is in Public Office right now should be doing anything to damage the Public Record but rather should be preserving every record that is within his or her custody. Well go to steve in robertsville, missouri on the independent line. Good morning, one quick comment, one quick question, please. To the republicans calling in this morning, your mask and h d handkerchief to sop up the tears. My question to you, if trump ends up in prison can he run a president ial campaign out of Rikers Island . Thanks. Thats an interesting question. The qualifications clause says in order to run for president you have to be a natural born citizen and youve got to be 35 years old, and you cant have served more than two terms. And if youre impeached and convicted, you could be prevented from running again. This is a president who, of course, was impeached and disgraced in the ukraine shakedown scandal, but he was not convicted by the senate. So he could run again. And presumably he could run from prison as well. How much do you think your committee, the Judiciary Committee in the house, will do investigations of the Trump Administration once President Trump is out of office . Its an excellent question because, of course, donald trump is a oneman crime wave. And the number of investigations hes spawned in terms of the abuse of the white house personnel office, the multiple violations of the domestic and foreign emoluments clauses, the ukraine shakedown, other forms of nepotism, crohncrohnism, corruption, theyre legion. I think, look, we have a forward looking agenda thats about getting the country out of the economic crisis. Getting the country to deal with the covid19 for the first time to get our economy moving again, to deal with the nightmare of climate change. But we do have to deal with these systemic assaults on the rule of law and on the constitution. And i think its going to be a question for our Committee Chairs and for our members to decide which of these issues compel our continuing attention in order to make sure it never happens again. For example, i do believe that the original sin of the Trump Administration was that the president decided to stay in business, and thereby converted his office into an instrument of selfenrichment and for profit money making. That is something we have to make sure never happens again. I think we should both disapprove every Foreign Government emolument hes taken since coming into office as well as demand return of every domestic emolument, every domestic payment made by the u. S. Government to the various enterprises at maralago and new jersey and the golf course in virginia and at the Trump National hotel. Millions of dollars going from the secret service and other arms of the executive branch. Those are things i think we should demand an accounting for and we should put in procedures to make sure it doesnt happen again. Similarly this president has diverted money that was appropriated by congress for particular purposes to other, unlawful purposes. For example, he has taken money that was programmed for certain defense construction purposes or va construction and put it into the border wall, which was not authorized by congress and was specifically rejected by congress. We have to make sure we have procedures in place to keep any future president from simply u usurping the constitution. Im 66 years old and i voted, except for one time my entire life and i have never seen so much Election Fraud. It is unbelievable. There are affidavits of people that saw other people filling in ballots. 500, 600,000 500, 600,000 ballot drop in pennsylvania and only 3,000 for trump. Its rampant. This man on here is spewing so many you sit there and that thing about going to prison for three years for destroying records. Hillary clinton smashed her blackberry with a hammer. Theres one set of laws for democrats and theres another one for republicans. This man should be ashamed of himself. The original sin of President Trump was that he wasnt part of the deep state and exposed the corruption of the representatives like the man you have on there. Congressman raskin . Okay. We obviously have a difference in view. But lets start with this. Every federal and state judge in the country, many of them appointed by republicans, others appointed by democrats, have rejected those allegations that you just repeated from donald trump. Theres not a judge in the country that accepts what youre saying. Yesterday attorney general william barr even disassociated himself from that. There is no evidence of pervasive Election Fraud in any way. And so, this is why the president has lost every single suit that hes brought in pennsylvania, in wisconsin, in georgia. This week we have republican Election Officials in georgia demanding that the president stop this ceaseless and baseless attack on the american electoral system which they say is going to get somebody hurt or killed because of the nonsense and paranoia that it is promoting, which the caller seems to be a victim of. Theres not a double standard here. Any democrat that violates the law should be subject to the law, just like any republican that violates the law. But whats happening for really the first time in our memory is we have a president of the United States who refuses to accept the honest election result that has been certified by every state in the country. Hes refusing to accept that. And continues to promote this paranoid delusion, deep state Conspiracy Theory. The president said he was going to drain the swamp. The president moved into the swamp, he built a hotel on it and began renting out rooms to dictators from around the world and lobbyists in america. So the corruption, im sorry to say, madame, is at the feet of your president , donald trump. It as he who is the fountain of corruption in washington which is why hes spending his final days pardoning people like Michael Flynn who have gone to jail for their corruption and illegal conduct as members of his administration. We go next to randy, in broken bow, oklahoma. Good morning. Good morning. Id like to ask the guy a question but i dont like being lied to so ill make a statement, if youll let me. Where to start. So russia for three years you call us delusional. Ukraine. Biden is on tape extorting ukraine. But trump is guilty . I want to know all these people calling for unity and calm and get behind and our new president and all that stuff, the same ones that called us everything, and continue to call us all kinds of horrible names, are they going to feel that way when trump retains office because all this stuff goes to the Supreme Court and they actually follow the law and throw out the votes that were handled illegally, that were cast illegally, that were brought in, back dated illegally, that were counted after voting day. Is any of that is that going to make yall come together . Are yall going to be nice to us in the next four years . Randy, congressman rankin, let me ask you what the president elect has to do in terms of that regard in terms of binding the nations differences. Well, obviously there are some very big differences of opinion. You know, im sorry that some of the callers are refusing to read any of the judicial opinions rendered by republican judges, democratic judges, any of the statements made by the secretary of state, a republican in georgia, or the chief Elections Official in georgia or those in wisconsin or pennsylvania. These are people who are excellent Public Servants who understand their job is not to serve one man or one Political Party but rather to serve the rule of law and render an honest count of the votes. Its alarming to me that there is, you know, some kind of paranoid theory out there that the president actually won the election. President trump lost the election. And he lost by 6. 5 million votes it looks like. Joe biden has received the exact same number of electoral votes that donald trump got four years ago which trump described as a landslide. So it will be a tough thing to heal the divide in the country if people are refusing to accept the results of the election. But look, the real challenge here is to deal with the outof control pandemic. We have not had a concerted nationwide strategy to defeat the disease but were going to get that with joe biden, with ron klain his chief of staff, theres going to be a focus on Public Health to make sure we have testing and Contact Tracing and then that we have a coordinated systematic federal state plan for the vaccination and immunization of the population so we can get through this nightmare. At that point well be able to get the economy back on its feet. Its not about the stock market its how people are doing on main street. We have tens of millions of people who are hurting. So this new administration has the opportunity to start again moving the country forward. I think the vast majority of the American Public will be behind that and do not want to be wallowing in the paranoid conspiracy theories that this president has taken so many people off on a tangent with. Covid hospitalizations hitting 100,000 across the country yesterday. Congressman raskin, your state, maryland, whats the situation like . Its dramatically increasing again. Were encouraging everybody to stay home. Were encouraging everybody to wear masks and were encouraging everybody to stand by our Front Line Health Care workers who are under the gun here. Theyre just desperate that we have all of these mixed messages coming out from the National Government when the hospitals are overloaded and staggering once again. So, you know, were headed now to more than a million new cases a week. Which is quite shocking when you think about it. And more than 10,000 people could be dying every week from here on in if we dont turn this around. So, you know, i know some people would prefer to be engaging in, you know, partisan bickering over an election which is over, the election is over, its complete, it is done. The states have certified the election. We have to unify the country around ending this crisis, the Coronavirus Crisis has been a nightmare for Public Health, the economy, for young people, for kids in schools, teachers who have such a difficult time trying to get the kids even to turn on their cameras if theyre teaching by zoom. And we need to unify the country and act again like we are one country and end the ceaseless partisan division and fantasies that have been unleashed by a president who has very much taken his followers in a dangerous direction here. Lets get one more quick call from stan, staten island, new york, democrats line. I just want to make one recommendation. C span is awesome and cspan does these book reviews. And there is a book called crisis point where basically they sat down and they talked about how we talked with each other. All right. Because theres a lot of disagreements. You have different points of view, granted, but it was an excellent book on crisis point on how to get the two parties together to talk to each other. This is something i would recommend. If you dont want to read the book, go to cspan, i know the interview should be in the historical log some place. It was an excellent book and it would educate all the elected officials to talk to each other. If nothing else, talk to each other and try to reach a consensus. Book tv. Org for that. Congressman, final thoughts . Thats a lovely point. Ill check out that book, ive not read it. Jefferson said if i can only go to heaven with a Political Party then i would prefer not to go. The party system is a sign of a healthy, functioning democracy, because they operate under the first amendment, theres freedom of speech, freedom of association and thought. And the parties help to organize public opinion. But thats for the election. Once the election is over, at that point all of us who aspire and attain to Public Office have to remember that we are the servants of the entire people, the entire country. If you call my District Office in rockville for help on va or ppp or unemployment, secret service whatever it is. We dont ask you are you a democratic or republican or green or reform party, we say do you live in our district . If you do, we go to bat for you. Thats the kind of mentality we have to have about public service. Were here to serve all of the people and we can learn from each others parties. My favorite president was the founder of the republican party, Abraham Lincoln who put that together in rejection of the wigs and nativism and their racism. And you know, we should learn from each other, and there are millions of people that dont identify with either the republicans or democrats, there are independents and others out there. All of us are on a journey together to try to make america better. What this means is we have to have a reality based conception of politics and government. We have to deal with facts. We have to deal with reason. If were dealing with magical thinking, superstition, Conspiracy Theory those things are destructive of the democratic project and that is a new phenomenon that has been enlarged and swollen beyond belief because of the internet. I would encourage all of my republican friends who called in today. I understand you think the election was won by donald trump and you think it was stolen, i encourage you to check out other media sources and read every decision handed down by federal and state judges alleging these totally abstract and academic claims of voter fraud because theres no evidence of it. No evidence at all. The congressman represents the eighth district of maryland just outside of the nations capital. Jamie raskin, thanks for being with us this morning. Thank you for having me. Thursday the aspen group hosts a discussions with the acting cisa director, brandon wales. Coverage begins at 1 30 eastern on cspan3. This afternoon a discussion with virginia democratic senator mark warner, democratic representative Lauren Underwood of illinois and republican representative will heard of texas on the progress capitol hill has made in investigating Cyber Security threats. The event will be hosted by the aspen institute. Watch live at 2 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan3 or listen on the free radio app. Joining us from capitol hill is congressman john rose, who represents the sixth district of tennessee in central tennessee. Good morning, congressman rose. Good morning. Thank you for having me on today. Absolutely. We started the program talking about the election, President Trumps comments on facebook. I wanted to get your thoughts on the president s