This event and provided the video. It is my pleasure to introduce nicole myers. Nikole turner is a sister professor of religious studies. She earned her phd in history at the university of pennsylvania. Her masters in divinity new york and her bachelors degree in political science. From high referred college. She is the author of this sole liberty the evolution of black religious politics imposed emancipation virginia. Before asking her the first question, i want to mention that this appears in this kind of conventional version of a hard copy it also has two other versions. Part of what makes her work so interesting is that it makes it possible to it is available as a conventional verbatim open access ebook and also as an enhanced open access ebook which shows off what dr. Turner was able to do with mapping and Digital Technology in order to develop her research findings. So one of the things i hope we will get to talk about today is how she worked with those sources and what kind of comments she thinks digital humanities holds in this research into africanamerican history in particular. Just to start off dr. Turner, tell us about this book. Thank you so much for having me. The book is about the evolution of black women and politics. The main goal of the book two historic size how block churches. There is a very common understanding of black churches as already politically engaged. The aim of my work was to narrate that process. It wasnt always engaged in the same ways. Black churches are in fact historical spaces that have changed across time, and changed during the process of reconstruction. That is with the main aim of the book is. Thank you so much. We will be bouncing back and forth. I dont mean to catch you from two different sides. Im really delighted to read the book and really excited. I have about 9 million questions. I will ask them all at once. Talk really fast, no, im kidding. Im going to try to add it and be patient for all the things i want to ask later. Building off of what you just said. I wonder if you can help us understand what you mean by sole liberty . Its not just a lovely title, but its also a concept he returned to in the book. It seems to speak to some of those intersections you are so interested in, and religion and politics, and how they are shaping each other. I wonder how you could just get us started on what that means in your work . Sure, thank you. Sole liberty actually comes from a quote in the virginia that this state convention minutes, where the members of the convention were citing Roger Williams pursuit up so liberty information of rhode island. What is interesting about the usage of that term is that its not only a turn that apply to the black baptist were part of the study, but it also apply to black episcopalians and black members of the Zion Union Church which started in southern virginia and north carolina. But the term sole liberty soul liberty reverse to this idea of religious freedom. That black people could worship with who, when and where they chose. It also about equity and justice that they were pursuing in the religious communities, but also in the wider public landscape. It originally comes from a specific baptist context that applies to the Baptist Convention, the black episcopalians who attended the branch theological school, which was the first black seminary for black ministers and priests in the episcopal tradition. And to members of the zion church. One of the original black denominations that we start in the south. One of the only ones started in the south. They all pursue this idea of being able to worship as they saw fit. Also, these ideas of freedom, equity and justice. Your answer captures, i think, many of the really fascinating aspects of it. One of which that particularly struck me, and that you note in your text and your own notes, is that that pursuit of liberty is, at first glance, it might read as liberty to warship separate from white interference, which is certainly an important part of the story. But also a liberty that allows for quite different types of formation of the freed peoples religious world. I was interested in, you know, you write about the ways they in the am each arch said so centrally in the literature, which makes perfect sense. And yet other religious experiences, episcopalian so we mentioned, or the African American members of the abc, they seem to be harder to pin down in the literature. What is if you think we gain when we study people who choose to operate and what seems to be an almost completely African American space, but to remain within a white dominated the nomination . What is it that we, as a historian, what drew you to those spaces as well . Im here a couple of things in your question. One has to do with the definition of liberty. One has to do with the sort of differences in the denominations and their approaches. I would say first that this, the ability to see this landscape comes from doing a sort of geographical look. A study that begins in a particular place in virginia. Sort of not taking the lens of a particular denomination. I did not come to it only through the lens of baptists, but also looking at the landscape of virginia which yielded up all three of those different denominations. When you start to think about how each of these religious communities chose to pursue freedom, it becomes really evident that, for the baptists, part of the trajectory of their struggle goes through, sort of the beginnings were black that this are organized already in conventions before the vote is established by the 15th amendment. They are already making arguments for their political participation and for their skill. That was something that was evident even before emancipation. There were black people organizing in associations. They sort of demonstrated their skill and ability to participate as citizens through their own religious communities. Then you find a very interesting story of Saint StephensEpiscopal Church in petersburg, virginia, which is started by a black woman who, in consultation with a white priest of a church that her family became members of, establishes in an independent black church, one of the first black Episcopal Churches for the community in petersburg. Its an interesting story because i think a lot of people tend to associate Episcopal Churches to high culture, not necessarily formerly enslaved freed black communities. They certainly dont associate them with black womens leadership. In this instance, you have black people like carolina brag, who helped establish the church, and her grand son who becomes involved in the movement. Another thing that drew me to the virginia landscape. George bragg becomes involved in the movement and becomes a sort of critical agent in narrating black history. He reflects how the struggle for black freedom took place in many spaces. Whether it was black baptist who are establishing their own independent spaces and associations, or if it was black episcopalians were constantly sort of navigating the lets get of engaging with former confederates, his george bragg did. It really opens up a way of thinking of how did black people go about drawing these types of alliances. This is what drew me to this particular case of virginia. How did they form this alliance . One of the things i think that becomes evident is the struggles for a sense of freedom and finding ways to achieve it in these various denominations. Thank you so much, nicole. This is so interesting. The vast majority of your book takes us into the post civil war period. You are really talking, as the title suggests, as this post event emancipation moment. I wanted to just have you talk a little bit about that transition from slavery to freedom. Youre talking about an area in virginia where the vast majority of African Americans before the civil war were enslaved, although there were some free black people as well. How would you discuss for us, for readers, what that transition look like . What was the extent black religious experiences during the time of slavery than informed what people did after emancipation . What were the particular challenges that people faced as slavery came to an end during the civil war and afterwards. How do you understand and see that transition . Thank you. I think the transition can be seat seen best by thinking, in part, about the sort of longstanding narrative of black church engagement. Also thinking about how it is that, in the antebellum period, there were independent black churches were black people were able to warship. Independent churches. That they were able to sort of develop leadership skills. One of the things we start to see happening in the post emancipation landscape is our debates about Land Ownership and property. So there is this really interesting aspect of thinking about black Land Ownership as something that came first in churches. That black people were starting to navigate the Legal Systems through trying to secure ownership by title and sort of formal ownership by churches that they had actually paid into to help support and develop economically. Part of that transition involves a transition to property ownership. Part of what you see transforming in this post emancipation period has to do a little bit with generals. One of the other things that i wanted to sort of highlight in this moment is how china roles were being established in Church Communities. So part of what you can see, or what i try to convey through telling the story of the Baptist Church in petersburg and looking closely at the landscape of the meetings in the churches, was how gender roles were actually being transformed in that moment. So one of the things i focused on in looking at the cases of pregnancy, these meetings handled many different issues, but i focus in on the cases of unwed pregnancy because there is a sort of clear sort of transformation and how the community initially didnt hold both parties accountable for being pregnant out of wedlock. For a brief moment in time, they do allow for both parties to be held accountable. And then they shift back to having just woman being held accountable. What happens as a result is women move back into the space of sort of only being disciplined during church meetings. You are also seeing the rise of a centralized minister or figure, who is male and has a particular kind of gendered status. I think there are ways in which the leadership roles change and expand. How access to land and property is something that changes through the churches across this time. Also how gender roles are being transformed on the landscape of religious institutions. Just a followup about that question of generals. I feel, and you make reference to the work made in a later period, Glenda Gilmore and elsa barkley brown, kind of an argument that either generals among African Americans, particularly in churches, became more kind of conventional as we understand it now, conventional ideas about male leadership and women being part of the church but not in leadership roles. Conventional ideas about gendered respectability. Did that emerge later . Im wondering, do you see that with you are finding has suggesting that all of the things that people said came about later, actually happened earlier. And also, i think that raises a question which is interesting and kind of really repeated in a lot of different places. Historians have suggested that the immediate post emancipation period was a period of kind of greater experimentation around gender hierarchies among African Americans. Kind of coming out of slavery, that there was more fluidity and constant a confrontation because, for example, so many marriages and so many families have been interrupted by the domestic slave trade. Now you have more moments of flexibility. Are you finding something really different from that here . Yes. I think the short answer is yes. When you look at the petersburg landscape, you definitely see the imposition of gendered roles taking place much earlier. But i think the question is not necessarily only one of the time period, but its also a place. Its also true circumstance. Its also particular ship models. One of the things i talk about in the study and acknowledge is that this is a deep look at a particular community. We need many more studies and many more locations to get a broader picture of these transformations and how they emerge. But yes, i definitely think that, in this particular case, its a challenge of sort of thinking about how generals could have been transformed much earlier. In this particular instance, finding this cash of Church Records really revealed whats taking place on the ground in this community. It was very instructive. People were having a very different experience of how generous been transformed during that time. One of the places we see that is in the conventions and conferences and other organizational and networking levels. You know, we will come back to this and a little bit when we turn to mapping. But staying on the level of where your argument, i want to say first that i think one of the draw is in reading this book, and reading other books of history that have this deep granularity, is seeing a historian take something. That, on its face, a lot of historians rush past because it doesnt seem that interesting. People get that congregations or interesting, but conferences and conventions, you know, theres a lot of like whos representing . And to explain why not only that its meaningful, it was meaningful to them, but also interesting. I do think its one of the magical moments of the book to see you take this thing that we would all feel the impulse to kind of be like, how do i get to the good stuff and say this is actually the good stuff that we see. Or this networking and connection. As you say going back to your question about gender about the ways in the spaces become not exclusively the spaces of the male white privilege. I want if you just tell people who havent yet read it what you draw from those areas why you think those spaces matter what do you to it. Did you know that that was gonna be a real telling part in the course of your studies . Thank you so much. Thats so funny because as you remember people started cautioning me when it would be not of the lot of information about churches that those would be really boring in is not a lot in them. But i will say that when she actually reproduce the schedule of the convention i was just wow that was really instructive about something i had no really insight into. I knew there was something the you could do and not be bored by them. But also, the Baptist Convention units are a treasure trove of information about black religious and political life, preserved on micro film. Some of them have whole 30 year runs. Every year you can buy an annual conventional. These exist for every segment of the state. Its a huge archive you think about it. Theres really a lot here to see. It also came out of an investment of using the archive of black peoples lives. In recognition that the archives of black religious life in many instances can be small can be mediated often through the eyes of white people. This is an archive that comes from black people about their experience. So its really important for me to center those sources. And to use every bit those instructors talking about being told if you find something about black religious lies, you have to find out how you can use it and use it as robustly possible. It was important for me to read those sources and get everything i could from them. You cant help but be struck by what is included in them. The names of all the delegates who attended. The names of all the locations of all the churches that are there. The different issues that they are discussing and recording in their minutes. Their financial records. They are incredibly rich. I saw so much more in them and i thought it was important to use. And as im reading through them, im noticing that there are no women initially on the boards of these conventions, but they show up. They show up in these accounts where they are acknowledged by their donations of the can conventions. The donation of a golden coin. Then you see it happen again and again its like whats going on here that women are showing up in particular ways, to me is starting to speak to the ways that we see as women as members as donors. As women who are financially so many of these conventions rely on. Its like one of these narratives thats already running in my head, and the women the role of black women and churches. It also raises the question the spaces of the churches in all those kinds of things which is the other aspect of the story that i wanted to tell. Weve had social activism and all these things but the kind of take a step back and say how is black man being constructed in the spaces, was something i thought was trying something to try to unearth. Thats a construction is happening in those spaces. I was able to get it that some of the convention, but some of the Church Records. Thank you so much thats a really good segue into a question i wanted to follow up on. I think one of the Central Claims as you said at the beginning of your book, that has to do with the relationship between black church organizing and politics in the formal politics sense, and the kind of voting Party Politics electoral politics. So you talking about being interested investigating but where you can tell about risk reconstruction of black manhood through Church Records, leads me to this question about relationships of those whats going on in formal politics where in 1867, African American manner franchise for the first time, they get the vote. Black women black people start to play a different role in public at,s becoming republicans. What is your, and how do you explain the impact of the kind of entry of African American man in particular to the formal politics of all getting and Party Politics,. The relationship between that and we thank you. I think a couple of things. One has to do with what i think was playing out in the background in the field. Where the churches dealing with these issues of unwed pregnancy and at the same time almost that black men the right to vote at the same time that the minister of the church is actually running for office and other members of the church are running for office or holding office. These things are happening concurrently. Im not saying that its a one to one that the church made the decisions it did about women because of that Political Landscape. It definitely is a consideration. I arrived at that assessment because as you look at the long trajectory of how the people in the church thought about themselves, and their role in society and how they were being viewed, it has implications it suggests they were thinking about how the church and the members are being perceived as lockman black man are gaining the right to vote and get into office. The other thing i think happens in terms of shaping and voicing Political Engagement has to do with both the way that black people were organizing in their convention in ways they understood themselves as already politically savvy and politically skilled. Its like about their convention as having committees and Holding President ial elections and doing all the work of political participation. Suggests that they should not be able to hold office of the highest level would rancor anybody. Then be told you cant advanced two outside of the box just where you were initially is a challenge thats part of the way they were influenced to Political Action because they already had the skills. I also think the association and the way that they helped perform Community Across county lines, across the lines of cities the way they brought people into contact with one another formed a foundation for people to think about themselves as a collective. As a collective with the political power to influence political outcomes. I was initially brought into thinking about virginia because of the adjuster movement. I wanted to study the question of religious and power and reconstruction. I was told you have to look at the mahone papers are this amazing huge collection of records. When i was directed to them hole record where he set up a canvas of block churches. Its an invitation to think about the role of black churches in this movement. Its really interesting to me that mahone is like let me figure out where these churches are and who they are and how he might be able to mobilize to his own political ends. I discovered he is late to the game. They already have this record. They know who they are and how many they are and where they are. They already have the sense of their Political Landscape. I dont say oh on the one hand mahone acknowledges that by trying to gather the information but the churches already know. They already know who their people are. Thats another way they become his political agents is forming up consciousness of gaining political power through these networks. For the sake of any of our audience numbers who dont have the readjust or movement down pat its one of the as i said with conventions, theres a series of moments in the book where we get these magnificent takes on important and often separated in the literature moments and a key aspect of that is that you begin in slavery and you go deep into the late 19th century and you have a lot to say about this incredibly volatile and interesting time in virginia politics. Do you mind giving first and overview and then i will follow up on the many things that your book has to say about how we can better understand that moment . On a what happened level that helps us understand mahone and the John Mercer Langston intervention. The readjust are movement, basically it was virginias reconstruction. It was the moment where a coalition of black and white voters and politicians were able to gain control of the state legislature and of the state patronage to affect the changes of allowing black people to sit on juries. Of establishing schools for black people like Virginia State university. They carried out the work of of ending the whipping post. It is often told through the story of William Mahone who was a former confederate general who was able to mobilize the coalitions of black and white voters. Because of his voluminous archive he often sits at the center of the story. Having state elected officials who voted in conjunction with the readjust ors who are arguing about readjusting the state debt. When i am nationally started to study this this was such an archaic set of municipal finance politics that how is it possible to build a coalition around these things. The state is decimated after the civil war the white farmers and white folks, this was a detriment to the state advancement but also for black folks. The formerly enslaved people who didnt contribute to the state debt who were now going to be responsible for taking care of it. And while the debt was being tended to, things like education was not a looked at. The readjusters tried to reorient the state to a context where people were trying to reorganize how things funds. Thats the Readjuster Movement. Thats great. One of the great terms you make, that we get questions on and im sure people want to expand upon which is what you gained by mapping. In other words how mapping didnt just let you show other people what you do. It became a tool for you to discover things that, you had collected the information. But you narrowed to see how you see some of the connections with the. Maps but in especially your portrayal of the mahone Movement Shifts for your understanding of the organization of the Baptist Church. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about how that interacts as an argument and also how your argument emerged from this expertise in humanities and mapping. It was interesting because there are two arguments. One has to do with the politics and the other has to do with mapping. I came to mapping because not only looking at the Church Records and finding a list of churches but also in the mahone records and that canvas that he did, finding myself wanting to see visually where these people were. What was the landscape of the network that he uncovered . It really allows you to look at different sort of reflections of the landscape and relationship to one another that might not be immediately sort of conceived in your mind about where people are and what those networks mean. One of the things i discovered by mapping is that, you only knew a small segment segment of what black people knew about their communities. He is sort of grasping at what was already there. Grasping at whats black people already knew. So some of what emerges, the other thing that emerges from looking at the map has to do with the depth of the different connections within the Political Landscape. I can see where the state convention or the bath this convention, im sorry, the Virginia StateBaptist Convention does not necessarily map as easily onto the readjust or movement support as some of the regional associations duke. That is one of the things that i looked at. What is the relationship between the bridge and about the state convention and some of these resort regional associations . Places where the support is strongest and sort of seeing how, and even the smaller communities, they grapple with politics in a very, in a very much more direct way. Thats what im able to see by mapping. With the black churches in their communities did in more segmented pieces. The other thing that really emerged for me by looking at the maps was the network. I had come across letters in the archive of people writing to my home in support of their political candidates. Making claims on basis of their geography, which was not like all the other letters in the archives that i read. It wasnt like my husband was a support of the registers. My husband and son are sick and we need that support. It wasnt those kinds of letters. It was we supported this person because they supported our Church Community and we are reflective of our communities. When they sign, its from many different counties. This is a reflection of a sense of political connection that, for me, sort of maps well with the geographic Political Engagement that was being fostered in the conventions. You can start to see how these larger landscapes of belonging are short of influencing the political claims that people engaged in because of it. Ive not literally seen with my eyes that argument had i not with closer. Just a followup on the. One question that came in and advance was kind of the opposite. It asked whether the downsides are kind of critiques of digital mapping . Were there things you hoped to be able to do that you are not able to do, or limitations in the technology . Tell us a little bit about the kind of trial and error, the ups and downs with your experience with that. The mapping technology, i think it required me to do a lot of thinking about when things i wanted to be able to understand using mapping. That brought me into the discourse about black digital humanities and the politics of mapping to understand how maps have been used to deny black people rights. How maps had been used to sort of reflect and perpetuate inequality for black people. So it was really important for me as i was engaging in using this technology, to think that what i was doing was speaking back to those Power Dynamics are trying to push back against those marginalizing and violent practices that maps have been used for. So for me, literally representing black people on the map was significant, and powerful and important to do. Using the archive of black life to as a source to reflect back life was really important. So it was really, you know, trying to create a way of visualizing where black people were that motivated me. Now, there are definitely limitations in the way that i was able to reflect that. Thats why the fulcrum project was helpful in ways. I was really glad to have the opportunity to present it by my editor at u. N. C. To actually do Something Like the full composite which allowed me to have this third version of the book that allows me to have a map that actually moves. Because once you start trying to lay layers upon layers upon layers, it kind of becomes messy. It is hard to see. But working through fulcrum allowed me, in conjunction with Jeff Eberhart and tom woodward and aaron white, as i was finishing up the project, to come up with ways to create a moving map. One that you can sort of toggle on to the layers and see the relationship. So there are ways in which trying to reflect, even using black peoples expense and lives, reflecting them on the map, you still need ways to make the maps movable and make them interactive in ways that really sort of push back against creating a map that is static. That shows you a reflection of reality and the truth. It really has to be something more dynamic. I think thats one of the limitations that you face and digital humanities, but also they can be overcome. I think there are more and more strategies to kind of push back against those limitations. Those are the ones i came up against. I need more than just a static map. Thats great. We should first, before we start pulling some questions, some other questions which we will do, give you a moment to talk about, if you are up for it, the mapping black religion. Com. You gesture to this and your question let people know what is there and what might be forthcoming with that. As you go behind you and your book, you tell us what to expect to see their. Sure, thanks. Its interesting because i started the mapping black religion project in conjunction with the manuscript because i was trying to find a way to do that kind of moving that i talked about. That ultimately became possible with the fulcrum version of the book. If i had known about fulcrum at the start of the manuscript or as i was trying to even realize it, how may i have approached having this digital site differently. Fulcrum allows a lot of what i think i am imagined this website would do, but its not fully realized even in the book yet. I will say that. So, i still have the mapping black religion website, which sort of reflects more of the engagement, the digital humanities, and how is it trying to use the archive of black lives to interrogate those practices. Right now, you will find some of a similar narrative of the transformation and more maps that reflect some of the changing landscape a black churches. Some of the changing landscapes of the political transformations that happened during this time. For me, that was the first page of the project. The second stage, as im working through trying to get it done, has to do with making a more interactive site. One that would allow users to do more of the kinds of things that i did by creating maps based on the different facets of black communities. Maybe there are other questions you could ask based off of an archive of churches and associations and ive gathered. Basically sucking all of the data that i have sort of transcribed and allow users to interact with that information and come up with new questions and new insights about relationships between politics and religion. As we started to build in more information about some of the communities, some of the churches, some of the individuals to a lot more visualization of the networks of people who were involved and engaged in the conventions. So really pushing further insight about networks that the manuscript raises. Hopefully, people will be able to see even deeper connections and the ones that i saw. Thats great. Thank you so much. We are pulling from questions that have been submitted. Im going to pull two together that both ask about gender and race. One specifically, but i will try to pose them each, but also lay out what connects them. I think they are both asking, and somewhat different ways, how the gender dynamics of the post emancipation world was shaped by either direct power of the white people in their gender dynamics are by engagement and institutions where that can be transmitted. How much the assertion of male domination was structured by participation in Episcopalian Church . The other asked about, on the sort of broader question of gendered sexuality and the imposition of norms, about the role of friedmans Bureau Agents and attempting to impose a set of conventions upon people tied to their free labor vision, and asking to what degree our ministers and other people of serving power in the churches you study influenced by these kinds of admonishments, in this case coming from northerners. So basically have to think about the interaction between those goals and the rise of the kind of politics of respectability and gender roles in ministerial power that you trace on the ground. So when i think about the cases and gayle field church, away the church sort of arrives at the practice of excluding women from, sorry, excluding men from being held accountable for unwed pregnancy, ive connected to the landscape of politics and respectability and are trying to sort of create a space for black man in the Political Landscape that would sort of be respectable. But theres also an element in which the church, at least from the minister or pastures direction, trying to sort of live out of their vision of what it means to be christian and the community. Part of that vision of the Christian Community as a set of practices around sort of dealing with conflicts and sort of dealing with conflict in community and keeping the Community Together through the process of engaging conflict in a way that doesnt exacerbate the conflict, but minimizes it. I think that is some of what is influencing the gender dynamic there. There is sort of trying to tamp down on the conflict in the community, which dovetails with the politics of respectability. It dovetails with some of the claims of the Friedman Bureau trying to shake family lives and these protests holistic models paternalistic models. Having been at the helm. Rights that are being dispersed or that are being expressed. So some of what happens is both an attempt to create community and maintain community, but at the same time as being sort of undergirded in support of a set of dynamics that marginalize women visavis the Friedman Bureau practices. So i think this helped me think about decisionmaking practices in a Community Need to be more robust in the ways that its serving the needs of the community but also may carry alternate other effects that may be were not intended. Then you asked a question about the relationship to the Episcopal Church and whether or not there were ways, sort of being related to white churches short of shaped gender and rich roles. This solution about this churches are not something they only do. There are ways in which some of the practices death tail, but they have a particular sort of context for the Community Using them in that moment. Youre not just taking it from sort of white people implementing it, but they are working out of their own context to make something meaningful and useful for them in that moment. Just to follow up another question that somebody typed in. It has to do with your use of the term at this to me logical theology. The idea community, black community, Committee Formation is obviously so important and African American history. So i would imagine that when you are using the term Epistemological Community, youre trying to bring forward a interpretation of what Community Construction means and how its done. I would like to hear you talk more about your use of that term. What is its take it using the term. What it might suggest about political practice in a period of volatility where gains can be made but also lost very easily. What does it mean to talk about in Epistemological Community . I would add to that question, sort of thinking in our contemporary moment as well, about how communities are changing and what that means. So epistemological epistemological unity was my wave calling out what it was that i observed in the records. When they were ultimately able to do to get in the records. So it was about knowing. Part of what is at stake for the Baptist Conventions as they are gathering, their names of churches and ministers and locations is about knowing who they are. A particular significance as baftas people in a landscape of religious possibilities. And in the landscape particularly in reconstruction where people can choose anywhere to worship. Its important for them to know who are baptist and how that community is growing. And so again i was just trying to collagen attention to that as a practice. Otherwise, you can easily look at those lists and think its just a list. But it was actually a practice. I was try to call attention to that. I think, yes it is in a moment of volatility as things were changing. But its also dynamic they are keeping with time. As there conventions are growing, they are documenting that transformation. It obviously has limitations. It doesnt go to the nittygritty of the idea of politics and what it is that any particular group of individuals were pursuing at any moment when the Political Landscape transformed. So it doesnt tell us whether or not some of these people decided they wanted to stay aligned with the readjusters as the Readjuster Movement was pushing against black men. Because or who could hold office cars that school could all office. Pushing against black man as they were rising to a level of running for congress. It doesnt tell us that. There obviously limits to that knowing who belongs. In that community or who was part of that community. It was definitely an important practice to call attention to thats what they were doing when they gathered their list. It has a political impact and import. Thats a creative way to think about institutional building and also the sources that you have available to develop a story and a history. I think a lot of people who have done archival particularly in social history and research of africanamericans have seen lists and wondered what to do with them or what can i use this for . What you are describing is using it to think about how institutions and connections and networks were created. Anyway go ahead. One thing you gestured to in that answer that a couple of the presubmitted questions have asked you to reflect upon is having written a tremendous work of history, now talk about the present. As to how about you understand both the relationship of the topics you study to the present and also about the relationship of this engagement of religion, politics, and Community Formation to create political change. How you might understand that in a period now. Thats the question that we might have specifically about how we might understand it in the time shaped by the movement for black lives . I would submit it a couple of ways. First, for the current landscape, one of the things i definitely had in mind was thinking about black Church Communities that come from i came from one that was very politically engaged that for most of my life have been the muse for my work. It is really caused me to question the relationship between religion and power and politics. To think about how black communities engage politically and also about the ways the black Church Communities engage gender dynamics and how black Church Communities think about themselves as historical actors. And so part of what i hope the work suggest is that the particular Political Movement moment black churches and black religious communities think about themselves in a historical moment. What is this moment calling us to do . Black churches changed across time. They changed from slavery to the period of emancipation and throughout. What are they being called to do edit particular moment . There has been a lot of attention given to and people automatically assume that churches will be engaged in particular ways. I think that what the study shows is top that churches actually responded to the moment that they were engaged in the moment and they were making political interventions out of the moment they were in. That would be one of the first things. Then, as you think about the movement for black lives, one of the things that is really clear for this moment that i study in reconstruction and that is really evident today is that this whole discussion about black lives matter, when i teach 19th century or africanamerican religious history or religion and politics, the argument that black lives matter has been made forever. From the first enslaved people being brought here to the present, we can see it most powerfully in this moment. My book covers in the ways that black churches and black people are pushing for the right to have soul liberty. To have the freedom to worship how they wish. To have equity, justice, and freedom. And the issue that comes up again and again, the this is one of the questions of his geography the failures of reconstruction. Why does it fail . Not because black people fail to make the argument because there was a lack of investment in the belief of black freedom and the idea of value of black lives as black lives. As lives. In this moment, if there is anything we could gain from this study its that black lives matter being made in this moment its not just for black people to make that argument but its for the larger of society to not just acknowledge it but to deeply accept it. Thats one of the things i would say about the moment. Black Church Communities, this is a particular political moment to be engaged in, to be thoughtful about, i would also say to expand the critical analysis to an intersectional frame is so its not just about black people but thinking about how sam those categories relate to one another. Black lives matter is a fundamental concept that has to be embraced and that comes through in this study and so many more. Dr. Turner, that is a perfect ending point where its one minute before the hour. I think that was a beautiful way of bringing your work on the reconstruction forward to the president. Very provocative. Before we go, i just want to thank our participants who are here. I want to thank you again for being here with us. A lot of thanks a sleaze under whove been in the background were getting us setting up and helping out. Thats the managing editor of the journal for penn state. Thank you for this wonderful work and i hope we can continue the conversation. Thank you all so much this was a pleasure next on the civil war. History professor tamika none lay talks about the experiences of newly freed African Americans. Particularly women in the washington d. C. Area following the 1862 disturbing attack of columbia emancipation. Act this top was part of a symposium held at the library virginia enrichment. Our next speaker to me can only as assistant professor of history come in overland she is no stranger to virginia. Having earned one of her amaze at the university of virginia. At overland, she has created the history design lab to allow students