Healthy as any of us can possibly be given the truly crazy world in which we live at the moment. I am scott henkel, i am the director of the wyoming institute and im so happy to welcome you to tonights thing can drink. The topic of which is, pandemic and historical perspectives. So i am so happy to introduce dr. Melissa morris who is assistant professor of history in american studies here at the university of wyoming and a member of the Humanities Research institute here committee who will be a moderator tonight and who will introduce our speakers. So please wear. Thank you, scott. And thank you to all of our panelists for agreeing to participate. Who i know our later time zones so thank you for sticking with us. And of course to all of you out there tuning in in some form or another. Im just going to do a brief introduction to our panelists and then i will let them each talk for a couple of minutes more about how their work intersects with what we are doing tonight. We so first we have Michael Christopher flow who is a history professor and he is the author of imperial mecca when the indian ocean from Columbia University in september. Exciting. Well next we have Felicia Mitchell who is a ph. D. Candidate and New York University and her work focuses on slavery and medicine for about 1500 1800. She is the author of a recent piece on perhaps whats earlier pandemics can teach us about our Current Crisis that appeared in the magazine and third up we have jacob steerewilliams, who was an associate professor of history at the college of charleston. He specializes in the history of science, medicine, disease and is working on a book that examines scientific attitudes and cultural constructions of typhoid fever in the 19th century. He is also an editor of the journal of the history of medicine and allied sciences. So i will hand it over to them to offer kind of a brief perhaps a little bit more of an overview of their work and how it intersects with our theme here tonight. We can just go in the order that i introduced you. I suppose, if that works . We thank you for having us. So my work centers around how the playing in the late 19th and early 20th century as i have focused on primarily to mecca. Sort of looking at the ways in which the sort of ecological fallout of british columbianism and indian ocean impacted the Ottoman Empire and of course really stilled over and became a truly global issue in the late 19th century. Also my work has sort of spun off in a couple of Different Directions but most notably i have written some about salivation technology, which is starting to being used as one of the solution to this problem related to the rayburn peninsula, the water is sort of the welsh spring of life in the peninsula. So that is sort of the second project sprung out of this initial pandemic when it entails to. Thank you so much for having us. So yeah my work focuses most broadly on the intersections of slavery and the slave trade in medicine in the early modern americas. But my current project focuses on smallpox and slavery specifically enslaved africans experiences of different Public Health interventions geared towards curtailing smallpox in the slave trade such as quarantines. And also their experiences with smallpox inoculation both with indigenous west african practices and west africa and different parts of the caribbean. Because a slave trade took enslaved people to variety of different locations in americas and with different folks across the region. I look at spanish, french, caribbean territories to put together what the implications of different Public Health interventions in the implication of different smallpox academics were in the period before 1800. So before the invention of the smallpox vaccine. So i have spent probably about a decade researching the history of typhoid fever and the ride of epidemiology in victorian britain. Typhoid has been this interesting disease for me to look at because it has also been seen around cholera and useful sanitation. Whats so what is interesting in my research so interesting in my research on typhoid is the role of British Colonialism and the process. In the colonial some, previctorian era it was seen as a british disease, a disease that people in by the end of the 19th century it would be seen as a disease for which clone elysium but across the world so its a local disease visavis these flood draconian processes so i have a tie for this coming up a little bit later, in september with university of rochester. In my second project that im working on right now will be out in may, early 19th, 20th century British Colonial era in india. A lot of sections here. I agree, so couple of you have kind of started to touch on this, but as a broad opening question i thought that i would ask you know, what parallels do you see between your own time period. Of course being careful as historians. But between your own time period that you study and maybe some things that are happening today. Whoever wants to go first. I will jump in and take a stab at that one. One of the things that this struck me in the last few weeks is really the peril about testing. And for cholera, really cholera leads on to the global stage and we start to get outbreaks moving from the start of the gantrys delta. In the 18 twenties, 18 thirties, certainly by the 18 sixties cholera is on the global radar and is impacting not only india, the middle east, europe, but also making its way all the way to north america. One of the things that i think is really interesting is from these early periods. 18 thirties towards the 18 eighties and nineties is that everybody was by. And nobody understood the virology, that immunology, really how cholera works and spreads. So for the better part of three decades in the middle part of might work of a British Empire that ultimately denies that india is the source of cholera. And you have eight bleaker Ottoman Empire thats really following the best medical, current medical advice of europe and falling lots of people like robert cohen. And yet they are being blamed by the British Empire said that mecca is this front of color and not india. So the blame game internationally and lack of clarity about how the disease works is strikingly similar to me. Im going to jump in next and say in a somewhat way that the pipeline aspect is very similar to some of the early outbreaks today. Around 500 years ago, the americas saw their first documented smallpox outbreak. In 15 19, 15 twenties, at that time smallpox was a novel virus. Summer to have the current versus a novel virus globally. So medical practices didnt have experience with that disease specifically prior to this. So this being a uncharted territory and not having a vaccine or any kind of medical record having to figure out along the way the medical practices that are similar but then the other one which is heartbreaking, but also expected given that this is the demographic hurt most by the disease. The racial demographic around other communities being affected much more so. As well as the devastating impact that its having on their native American Communities in the u. S. As well as a broad. It is very, very similar to what i studied and it has everything to do with the way that labor is performed in america. The socioeconomic disparities that we have. As well as the different communities that put them up for the risk of contracting this disease. And the fact that there wasnt a conscience effort early on to have any Public Health interventions even that preserving the lives of native and black people in the u. S. Looking at that in the past we were black and needed people paid the top of the cost of different colonial strategies, that is worth acknowledging. Those are the dissimilarities that i have seen. Definitely. Thanks so much. Just to dovetail, with the perspective of a couple of themes that weve heard from. One is the question that chris brought up about internationalism. Super interesting and how it parallels. This interesting phenomenon that happens in 1851 with the rise of the international sedentary conferences of the United States and turkey coming together, trying to think about the spread of cholera, the spread of the played. And if you think of measures of quarantine and global politics, and what is so fascinating if you look at those international standings, is one, how much uncertainty there is like chris mentioned. To, even when they vote on issues and try to come up with global regulations the diplomats and the way home to their home countries they go to the right place anyway. Its super acknowledgment that internationalism has a response to pandemics is something that is a positive public good. But putting it into practice is restraint. Its constrained by global politics. By labor certainly. So that certainly one theme. Number two, in this other one, it at least brings up about libra and the uneven ways in which antipandemic practices gets spread out evenly. Particularly by race. Thats something thats focused and my current project in south africa and india. If you look at the antiplayed practices in the colonial nations what you see is that indigenous harbingers of played. But then also doing the antiplayed work every day work of using distancing methods, abusing dangerous chemicals. I think you are seeing that parallel today that incident having shelter in place quarantine measures, there is real on the ground leap happening as well and its disproportionately in this country and around the world. Im going to pick up off on this note of how the seasons are thought of, and effective or otherwise in combatting this disease from an 1851. What other ideas are circulating in your project on how to fight disease, or where diseases come from . One of the things that emerges in my work as i guess, as jacob mentions internationalism, one of the big things in my work here is that internationalists are taken seriously, they want to be viewed as a power player in europe and taken seriously. Have their sovereignty protect under international law. So they really try to play the game of internationalism whereas the british are sort of the big bad in this story. Its weak internationalism cant restrain british free trade which refuses to be caught in any International Legal agreements which forced them to quarantine or force them to restrict they were mobility or pilgrimage mobility in my case. This becomes a real stumbling block for effective controls. There were certainly times where it would have been appropriate to restrict mobility. Whether it be european. Traders muslim pilgrims or migrants. Either for free trade or fear of backlash among their subjects that often refused to do so. So, gosh that is such a tough question to unpack because people have very different ideas of what diseases were and with the significance was packed and then we do now. So for smallpox, i guess i would say that the most obvious question that i get asked is whether or not the disease was racialized. For those who study needed people all recognize that this is a disease that almost anyone could contract especially if they havent had before. Pretty early on. Of course folks from different control backgrounds scrub different meanings for it sometimes they had even geopolitical connotations or faith connotations. In west africa as well as in the americas, many of them practiced smallpox inoculation as a preventer eat from of immunization that was from one person putting incision on another person. Usually performed on children. For europeans, western europeans werent really familiar with any form of immunization practices until the early 18th century. It was a big part of turkey, middle east, and in the early 18th century it was a uneven adoption. Folks in the americas were more willing to experiment with it and adopt it early in the 18th century. I think in large part because of their contact with west africans and their familiarity with the practice. But western europeans didnt really practice until the mid 18th century. Then it was in use much more prior to that. They tended to rely on small pox quarantines which similar to the practices that we are doing now, still leave anyone infected in a vulnerable position and doesnt do anything to prevent the disease from spreading if it already is. And so a big part of my work is focusing on that quarantines and quarantining and there places like the sleeve trade in the coastal places across latin america. So i guess that is answer the question. That is interesting as well. You talk about the way in which race impacted discussions about slavery and smallpox. At the same time, there is yellow fever happening here as well which is racialized and its super interesting. If i try to think through what is happening in the late 19th century with a lead in india and south africa, you talk about differential blame, seen a phobia and labor. Im going to try to cheer a stream. Thats the same old. It may not work. One of the things that is so fascinating to me which i found is this photograph from 1988 which depicts it tipping station in karachi, the port city, central to the British Empire in this period. It is a photograph that shows human played officials with indians in karbala. What is so interesting to me about this example and i was floored when it was happening, both in india and south africa, at this time, is this really harrowing photograph. Its the only photograph that i found that existed it was no to burn the skin. Right. Heres this photo where they are in the middle of a pandemic. This chronic played a sweeping through the globe. Its disrupting life and trade. Theres also this new bacterial life. Theres knowledge about the fearless and theres knowledge about the human connection. And yet the response is this heavily racialized response that blames the indigenous for spreading the disease. Its a colonial Public Health type of practice. Im thinking about the visuals that are happening here. I think they helped a nuance and contextualized libra practices that are super long standing. Thanks. Its interesting to piggyback on this issue with played and certainly cholera and played were running concurrently. All of these International Sanitary conferences, be enshrined European Mobility and continue to protect trade, and european troop movements and tended to demonize have migrants from places like china and india. This is the one of the ways that i have about immunity passports is that we end up not really with something that covers or really things carefully about immunity but instead just is another way to practice these racial inequalities. If i could just jump in really quick and say these are ways we sort of in shrine your pin mobility is important because part of the reason why european colonial officials were creating different policies was because a slave trade can continue. The perfect solution to stop making smallpox on ships is to stop and saving people. That is not what anybody was interested at the time. Sort of developing these different kind of Public Health policies that allowed for things to continue along he certain quote unquote, normal in the way that people are trying to figure out how we can get back to a normal before that we realized now, at least at the current pandemic, its not sustainable or safe for everyone in the first place. I am glad that this question of immunity came up because its obviously something people are talking about so much now like how do you prove immunity . Is does having the disease confirm immunity . So its interesting to see and not perhaps on surprising that those were concerns in previous areas as well. Another thing i want to ask you all about was kind of the broader effects that pandemics have had. Elise, in your piece that you published recently you talk a lot about how, you know, the pandemic is one thing but some of the other knock on effects of pandemics that are actually more detrimental to society and certainly in our own time there is the question of you know, one of the economic effects are what are the other effects . Im wondering if you could all speak to that in your own era. Michael, if you want to go . Okay, i will jump in. So in the piece i talk about how for the smallpox outbreak that i study, if they spied up into epidemics, oftentimes they were preceded by famine because, you know, so many of the people who are part of the labor in process, or other bound laborers, were often the ones most impacted so they were either unable to work order to many people perished for them to be able to work. A lot of times densely populated urban spaces, there are several examples where i read that they said where the officials report that some households were left without a living soul so massive depopulation and an end to different aspects of social cultural and Spiritual Life was often a big thing. I mean im working on early modern period and focused a lot on liberian and french colonization. You know the Catholic Church is a big part of thats a lot of people were implementing the end of religious ceremonies. The fact that people died or woke up without having last rights and things like that. They were also incredibly disruptive to trade and commerce. All manner of trade and commerce so in some cases the small island and territories that i studied were pretty dependent on getting particular supplies from other places in the supply chain. Look at cut off and that would mean that people had to go without different foods or goods for a long period of time. Those are some of the biggest impacts in addition to like the variety of emotional things that come along. Just to sort of try and think about pandemics as sort of swirl of comorbidities. I mean a lot of what i think about for autumn in arabia, the large part of the muslim world, is that British India is sort of again its a swirl of conditions that are conducive to not just cholera outbreaks, played, malaria, famine of course and this sort of synergy between these things sort of helps to further the possibility of further outbreaks. The other thing i would say is sort of piggybacking on some of the blame games that are at foot at the moment sort of playing with statistics. One example that i like to use is the british like to play down cholera depth. They would often report cholera deaths as famine diarrhea. So taking one crisis and blaming it so that it did not draw sort of larger International Attention to the bigger problem. We do, we see the sort of ways in which there is a sort of cascade of consequences. Water safety, water security in the Arabian Peninsula, tired border controls. New experimentations was passport controls which of course were racialized as well. So we get some of the sort of infrastructures of travel regulation, mobility that we tend to i think as americans, think of when you have your passport and it provides your freedom to go where you want. Well in point in fact, usually passports were restrictive measures. I think its important for us to recognize the origins. Thats right, thats a really important work that emerges out of my research to with played in india and south africa. I think, you, know how i see this particularly with my two projects on typhoid and on the bubonic play is on the one hand the story of typhoid in the course of the second half of the 19th century is one of the rise of a kind of global epidemiology of a kind of commitment for governments to hire people to study epidemics both times. I think along historical arc we could see that as an important kind of monitor, right . At the same time i think how those Public Health practices were happening on the ground, particularly in colonial locations in the 19th century was very uneven. So while we might say the rise of global epidemiology is a positive good for society and i think that is certainly something we should acknowledge. On the other hand, you know, what happens in the case of cape town for example. I was in cape town last summer and when i found there was 200 huge archival boxes that had not been open since 1910. They were all played files. Whats so interesting is british officials one played starts hitting cape town, they literally cleaner with Police Officers and soldiers, european. They clear came down. Completely. They foresee Indigenous People that were living their out of the city. They totally remade that landscape and so there is this i mean chris you could speak to this to. So can you elise. There is a fear that europeans have an 18 the 19th century but theres also this fear of indigenous landscapes and environment so i think the colonial projects in this period was one of racialized and disease but also of landscapes anyways. I think there is certainly this interesting mix between what Public Health is doing on the ground while Public Health is doing an ideological easy speaking and what its doing on the ground. I mean this is an interesting thing that you bring. Up this sort of idea of environmental orientalism and one of the things that comes out in my work is that this sort of modernizing state when you stumble starts to view the Arabian Peninsula and its frontiers as a defective environment, right . That there is something about the mobility of pilgrims but also the effectiveness of the desert environment that is particularly dangerous and needs to be rectified. So you start to get sort of more emphasis on infrastructural projects were water or sanitation, etc. There is the sort of street of a sort of european orientalism that even the ottomans starts to combine as well. I think the point about landscape is really important. I mean in the caribbean you have from very early on people talking about this as this disease ridden landscape as it promotes on health and all of these things but smallpox never gets wrapped up in those same discourse is because europeans, from pretty early, on recognize that it was a disease that happened between human to human contact, cold climates a thick, so its sort of a outlier for diseases like yellow fever, malaria. The fact that there was so many horrible outbreaks in europe as well often were affecting the caribbean and different parts of coastal west africa, central west africa. It does not quite get it does not quite ever get racialized in the same way or in a specific group. From pretty early on in the 17th century, europeans recognize that this was a disease that was augmented for people in close quarters. Keeping people in unsanitary conditions were regarding what climate or environment they were in. Thanks for all of that. We have some amazing questions from our audience so i will turn to some of those. We have a couple of different questions that touch upon the issue of Civil Liberties versus perhaps, or not, Public Health. So we have a question from mary berman who asks about, you know, was that a factor in past pandemics . The sort of clash between people advocating for Civil Liberties and those folks on Public Health . There is also a question from Jason Mcconnell who asked about the use of quarantine as potentially a convenient tool by which to maltreat minority groups or other, you know, people considered undesirable and the population so i will lump those together and ask if you see that in your own work. I will try and tackle this question maybe a little bit in directly. Just thinking about the difference between metropolitan societies in europe and sort of colonial territories that they controlled. Civil liberties, as we might think of, it were not really existent in the same way. One of the things that crops up in my work is the sort of deal that is struck after the great rebellion in 1857, 1858 in india. One of the sort of key ideas that is enshrined is that missionary activity would be frowned upon and hindus and muslims and other religious groups in india would be given religious freedom. However narrowly defined, right . So this idea made a very difficult to restrict mobility that had anything to do with religion. In my case, writing about the pilgrimage mecca. The colonial state was terrified to do anything that would be seen by the sort of Muslim Population as a sort of on this basic agreement and so this was sort of the basic, if you will, Civil Liberties question of the day and it really hems from the stay, from acting effectively to control the pandemic. So Civil Liberties. When you are talking about enslaved people, liberty is not something as much of a factor. So, you know, enslaved people because of the fact they were enslaved was already vulnerable to being surveilled at a higher rate to constricted mobility, to all manners of different forms of violence as well. Of course that is a cornerstone of slavery but in terms of whether or not. Public Health Practices were an infringement on that. I mean we have to remember our sense of Civil Liberties here in the u. S. Is a pretty broad conceptualization. That is something that is culturally constructed here and legally constructed here. For the period that i study and i will focus on free people because that is a bit easier to answer that question because within slaves people is just not on the table. For folks who were in west africa, they have pretty comprehensive Public Health responses to small pox outbreaks from the little bit of documentation that we have. It included like in some cases included mass inoculation of children, quarantine, things we consider so much social distancing today. It included having some type of proof that you had been inoculated before you could go treat as a great distance. That had to do with the fact that the west africans understood diseases as being like a sort of collective. As having a more collective impact. If you are working with them in a framework already and does not necessarily apply because you are already prioritizing whereas from pretty early on, especially in the western europeans especially had a pretty individualized concept of the body. And concept of diseases where these are affecting one person or a group of individuals and with that, then you got into problems when you try to get people to adopt things like inoculation which might be dangers for one person but on the whole might be beneficial for everyone. Or things like different kinds of quarantines or other things to work folks want to be the exception of the rule, which i think has to do with some of those fundamental differences and how folks were conceiving of diseases. In terms of quarantines, were they exploited . Absolutely. I mean unfortunately some of the examples that i have been closed in slave becoming victims of Sexual Violence during quarantine. People will use quarantine sometimes or fabricate smallpox epidemic as an excuse to throw rebellious in so huge people overboard during voyages. Im in many of the descriptions are really terrifying so of course european enslavers often use these quarantined as opportunities to exploiting slaves people further. I mean the impact a sort of sending folks to these different places over and over again for some cyclical quarantine meant that it was incredibly disorienting for slaves people, which whether waiting or unwittingly contributed to the kind of practices of massacres that folks are trying to inscribe in the caribbean and early modern period. I see a lot of the same ducktails in my research to. So on this issue, i to have seen British Colonial officials in the cape colony. They removed indigenous africans to these camps. They are forced to live. They are thrown out of their houses and in more urban centers. Their houses are destroyed, their belongings are destroyed, the bodies, physically, are disinfected with chemicals. Chemicals that are imported from europe which is sort of interesting kind of Technology Transfer of colonialism as well. Also seeing in the archival records there, numerous instances of british officials raping Indigenous Women in camps. And other sort of infringement upon colonize people feel. The other issue i think whats interesting here is how much pushback there was two that i see in the records of requests by indigenous africans for the unequal treatment that they were being had through, you know, through train travel, through their belongings being destroyed. There is petition after petition after petition that shows in the played records of south africa to show the kind of resistance in these measures as well. The other question that was asked here, you know, about Civil Liberties is really interesting with how we relate to my work on typhoid fever. Some of the audience will undoubtedly know when the classic cases of Public Health is typhoid in early 20th century america. What is so fascinating to me after having studied typhoid for, you know, over a decade is how it was not the first asymptomatic carrier for typhoid. She was not even first recognize. There is a long history stretching back to the mid 19th century of Health Officials trying to locate what they called the index case for an individual who started an epidemic. Oftentimes that was people that were already socially aligned in europe in european locations or colonial locations. There is this longest historical are here on infringement of Civil Liberties is happening to. I will go to another question from the audience maybe also bundling a couple of questions together so we get through all these. So first we have a question from about 1774 or two black philadelphians who helped lead their communities response to the outbreak to try to combat ideas about black community which is something that came up with the coronavirus as well. He is wondering if the panels can comment on ideas about racialized immunity or vulnerability. I also am going to pair that with this question from Donald Otoole about an enslaved person who helped fit who was owned and helped explain how smallpox could help increase resistance to that and whether there was an awareness that that was, you know, that that knowledge came from an enslaves person. Personally, i am interested in indigenous african knowledge generally so i will let you three answer those two together. So my sense from those questions is that they are about like how i guess with those examples, how free and enslaved africans and the americans were responding to these outbreaks. I can start with the one around cotton matters first. He was a member of a group that the english called for but its mainly afrikaans the speaking people. He was not the only person to tell europeans what african forms of smallpox inoculation. There are documents that might predate that one of free people of african descent and also people of european descent in places like send on main, which is now haiti, describing inoculating west africans who were familiar with the practice and continuing to practice in the americas. There are a few examples of folks from other parts of the caribbean. Jamaica, if i am remember correctly, barbados but not quite sure on that one. Practicing smallpox inoculation in the americas and in terms of french and english people who travel to west africa, they cited people practicing smallpox inoculation, it was almost as common as circumcision in a lot of west africa. So in places like senegal, all along the gambia river. All along the sierra leone river. Many, many people from that part of west africa. Now we do not have early documentation of people in West Central Africa had this former practice but they had other Public Health responses to smallpox. In terms of the differential immunity, europeans believed that africans were more immune to smallpox than anyone else but they did believe that their bodies were somehow hardier and somehow more resistant to diseases and therefore able to be subjected to harsh smallpox experiments. There are very few quote, john crier is the notorious one who did some pretty horrible experiments on enslaved africans combining smallpox inoculation and a variety of in the late 18 century. So because they had this belief that africans could somehow withstand harsher treatments or would experience a less severe form of the disease, they did not gave them the same quality of care that they provided with europeans. Once europeans formally adopted smallpox inoculation they were willing to inoculate and slaved africans who were in physical conditions that they would have decided they would not inoculate a european person under. So they already had another disease, there was someone who was pregnant, if there was someone who was a very young and fit, things like that, and say people, you know, there are a number of examples. So asha turner, a historian but has a really good book contested by the. She talks about instances where in slave mothers try to withhold their children from be milky later because they were too young. And then you also have examples of people of african descent in places like venezuela where they continue to practice smallpox inoculation despite the Spanish Colonial governments attempts to regulate the practice in the 17 seventies. You have a few european observers who say we have seen inoculation practices amongst people of color without the presence of any physician. So folks are definitely doing things to try to mitigate the disease and i mean once you get to the 19th century, because there is a much more dense documentary record and far more free people of african descent, you have a lot more examples of people, especially folks who were free in northern states writing to advocate for better treatment of enslaved africans in the south and access to the smallpox vaccine was that came out as well. But access under conditions that would actually promote health not under conditions that might cause them to die or have a right reverse reaction to it. I can jump in here to a little bit. I think one of the things that is really interesting, if you take this long view of this, you know, from this period that elise its talking about in the 18th and early 19th century, i think there is this real fear looking back on that and using that historical knowledge today and trying to understand it and just black boxing, that pigeon holding that into the older era where there was not modern Scientific Understanding of disease in the body. If you speed it up into the late 20th century where the new science of bacteria elegy, new science of micro organisms in spreading disease as a cause of organism. There is still, in some, ways there is sort of a redoubling of ideas of differential immunity. In spite of new bacteriological and to me all edgy, these racial theories persist and some way become even stronger. Health officials in the early 20th century can use test and determine who has a disease or who does not have a disease of bacterial originalist. At the same time, there are still thinking about racialized ideas about who is more susceptible, right . Or who is spreading the disease. I think that this is interesting out whats jacob brings. This idea that we cannot compare the president with say the early 19th century or late 19th century. In many respects, the sort of racial ideologies rear their heads in these moments, right . My colleague from columbia now at villa nova has written some wonderful things in the popular press recently about a sort of fear of east asians ways in which the west refuse to essentially look at the examples that were put forward by perhaps chinas a little bit problematic but especially south korea, japan, singapore and refused to really follow the examples of social distancing and particularly maskwearing early on in the pandemic. I think that this is certainly related to racial hierarchies, right . Thinking that there is some sort of reunified, obedient, aging population. The sort of stereotypes get trotted out to say, one all the west will not follow these examples. There is really nothing to learn here one in fact there certainly was and now we are paying the price. Definitely. So the next question comes from rene who asks about zoonotic diseases, so diseases that passed from animals to people. Basically the environmental aspect of both covid19 and other zoonotic diseases and what your thoughts or whether this is a concern in your own time but, you know, over putting too much pressure on natural resources, depletion and how that leads to pandemic diseases. And if you have thoughts on that . So i teach a Global Environmental history course and do not expose overs is certainly a big part of what we do in that course. Obviously this semester has been a sort of case study for my students early on the semester we talked about that as the pandemic was unfolding. I think that my points were brought home maybe a little too well this semester. I think it is interesting. There are ways in which we are talking about sars and covid in bats, murders, respiratory syndrome in camels. Animals have become scapegoats, right . When in fact this is a sign and symptom of the great exhilaration or depending on your sort of a logical perspective on how you want to think about Climate Change in our current predicament. This is fundamentally a human problem of a sort of using cheap resources, cheap land and encroaching on animal, previously undisturbed animal habitats, or industrializing our interactions with animals and sort of human populations, industrial and wild animal populations while in very close proximity. This is fundamentally a human problem, not an Animal Problem regardless of what the popular press might say. That is really interesting and i think just jump off that a little bit, you know, if you take this moment at least with the story of the history of the bubonic play when the wrath was first acknowledged to play some kind of road in spreading the play in the late 1890s. The early maps that British Colonials produced in south africa are not the sort of classic john snow maps of either cases of sick individuals are dead individuals. There are actually maps that are epidemiological spots for rats so they are mapping rats on the urban landscape to try to understand the spread of the animal. As you said, chris, becomes is kind of scapegoat for a whole set of i think issues. One of which is race, right because those maps, they mapped literally onto the urban landscape but they also mapped onto the houses of Indigenous Peoples. I think the field of human diseases in its history is a knit burgeoning one right now and one that highly encourage anybody that is interested in that at all to look at the sort of period in the late 19th early 20th century when there is this flourishing of this new kind of zoonotic research that is happening from people trained in bacteriological. Why. This one is a tough one for me to answer for my own research but i think like thank you for both of you answers because they are helpful for me as i am thinking about this. I mean the first vaccine that is called a vaccine because it comes from cal pox, which is not the same smallpox about can produce a temporary immunity. That is something that was pretty familiar to different Rural Communities who have close interactions with cows. The idea around the reason it became effective was because it was a way to control the spread of the disease and control immunity. I think the nature of humans contact with animals really shapes the way that those kinds of diseases can become something that is either harmful or helpful for a community. I think that that kind of gets back to the question that jacob just touched on around the different social inequities in the ways in which race intersects with this in a context where people are actually like, you know, for where the scientists are invested in a Wider Society is invested in protecting folks as they come into contact with these diseases. Those diseases can lead to the production of knowledge that my produce care for something or produce some kind of remedy but in a context where folks are not investing in those things either because they can or because for political or social reasons, they are choosing not to then you end up with a situation where you might have it piling on into a pandemic. I do also believe i think we have a thing can drink in the work that will also talk more about this specifically so stay tuned. This is a question which i love, what is the best way or all the ways that we, as historians, but also a humanist can generally inform policies about Public Health. Kind of a tall order but if you want to just share your thoughts. Im actually trying to think about this a lot. Both in a pandemic moment like this and i have written a handful of opeds for our newspaper in charleston and try to contextualize. On time that makes in the use of disinfectants in the long history. I think one of the things that historians its a try and use our expertise to sort of complicate some of the big narratives. The narratives of scientific progress, the narratives of, you know, we have this problem, right . There is this idea out there in a Broader Society that this sort of work like this in the past when it can work like this now that there is this unsolvable mystery, right . Disease often gets linked to mystery stories were there is this problem, we just need the right sort of know how to get fixed and if we just have the right scientific breakthrough, we can solve this problem. I think, you know, any sort of story of the history of disease is abundantly clear that has not worked that way in the past and that it probably wont work that way now. So i think the more we can complicate those heroic narratives, the more we can help people try to navigate one of the gray areas and the more complicated areas, areas of inequality. One of the things that i think is so interesting for me as a historian of epidemic disease is how much play the spanish flu has gotten in the media lately as a way to understand the moment we are in now. I totally get. It was the last big american pandemic to happen. This really important Global Pandemic to happen across the world and i think like, you know, having cities across america quarantine in 1918 and summit early 1919 provides a kind of lesson for us. I also think there has been a lot of a way in which that story has been reduced to a kind of not very complicated story and a kind of heroic story that the kind of things we have been talking about in the last hour. I think they are much more difficult to try to throw into how they easily map on to our experience right now of covid. I think in a way that makes it more valuable. I like to jump in here and again sort of mecca pitch for environmental history. Our current moment is quite different. I think jacob brings up a good point. The sort of one to one camp ericssons. I have seen lots of stories and popular medias about the spanish flu or even cholera but we are living in a different moment, right . Certainly the 19th century we could think of it as the globalization with a steam, telegraph, connectivity. The level of connectivity and the speed of travel, the density of our population and all of these sort of of the environment but put us in a quite different spot and sort of pieces together one small data point in a much, much larger picture and i think some of these 19th century comparisons for sort of heroic great man theory of medicine, right . That there is a doctor fauci out there who is going to come up with a cure and save us all from this. These are sort of generally slow rolling efforts and we are very likely to sort of see very similar things happening in the future. I really like, i believe it was alfred cosby and i butcher the quote but he said there is a 19th century and then there is a 20 century when we have all of these wonderfuls advanced as [inaudible] fallen, immortality, extending Life Expectancy isnt etc. He was asked, what happens after the 20 century . Its not the 20th 21st century. Those gains that we have made in some respects such as antibiotics, advances in bacterial, gee virology, etc, they are not enough to keep pace with the changes that we are making to a wider environment. To really sort of only have a conversation about Public Health i think puts us at a big disservice. Second way that i would like to maybe addressed his question on how we can interject ourselves and sort of the Public Discourse is to really think about calling balls and strikes. So my work on the pilgrimage to mecca, but i am seeing lots of stories about the impending hot season is coming up in late july, early august. Pilgrims have been banned from making you know which is going to mecca outside of podge season in saudi arabia has put some quite strict controls to travel to mecca medina. One of the things that happened a couple of months ago was the saudis a trial balloon that they would ultimately have to postpone or cancel the pilgrimage this year. With that, they sort of put together a package of precedents. A previous times when for reasons of political conflict, war or pandemic as it had been disrupted. Interesting lee all of their examples come from the seven century all the way up to the invasion of napoleon in egypt in 1798. There is no mention of the 19th century. No mention of the colonial interventions with cholera and played and ottoman developments of Public Health and really a period in which colonial powers sort of reached into the Arabian Peninsula and regulated the pilgrimage to make. A really the most sacred events in the fate. So we see a sort of reluctance to come to terms with that history in the sort of talking points that they put out. Interestingly have opeds about hodge being postpone or its potential have taken the saudi talking points generally without, i suspect, without reading the original Arabic Communications and just digested all of that information without checking. There are lots of errors that have been imported really into our sort of understanding of this in the last couple of weeks. So i have spent some time working on a piece thats called balls and strikes on this and sort of adjudicate what is going on. I think that is one role will we will have an impact is to come behind and really correct the record when journalists make some of these mistakes for. I mean i think humanist definitely have a role to play in the peered across the board. I want to echo the quotes. Its never a one to one comparison. That is never more true with appear that i studied with and people working with completely ideas about how medicine diseases work. I think one of the things that you can do with sort of taking a long view is thinking about some different social conditions that produce epidemics that enable epidemics to spread. So for my research i put together a database about 500 different smallpox outbreaks are all the way through around 1803. The commonality as many occurred and say ships, many occurred in very densely Populated Areas so when we heard that covid was spreading, my first concern was about homeless populations were about people were living in urban areas, where about people who were in prisons and detention centers. While that is not the same thing as slavery or being held in the sleigh ship or adequately location, that kind of forced confinement as something that cylinders in our world today. Given that we are currently living through a pandemic thinking about how we might build societies that do not include those kinds of forest confinement might be something worth considering at this point in time. Also looking at the staggering mortality statistics for the period that i have studied. I am looking at and seeing cases where inside people are dying two times, three times the rates of other groups. They cannot get access to their normal different forms of medicine or perform the kinds of tradition they would because of the disruptions that colonialism cause. And thinking about that in our time period as we continue to sort of push people to perform essential labor without adequate protections and other things like that, you know, those parallels are worth exploring and worth consideration. I think humans have a lot to learn to that conversation. I also think that we do not necessarily have to look at past pandemics or epidemics in order to understand the ways that this one might come to bear on our lives. We still have an ongoing hiv pandemic around the world and the numbers are looking pretty bad for queer communities have colors in many western countries. I think the scholars who do work on that actually have a lot to lend on infringements of Civil Liberties, in terms of Contact Tracing and what that does in terms of racial disparities. And the way that, you know, Public Health issues intersect with these other issues of exploitation of exploitation, housing crisis and things like that. I think that so as much as i am delighted that you are talking to us and, you know, people want to hear from me about the things that affect. I think the real people to talk to are the folks who work on hiv and disability scholars to. As i try to trace individual and people with smallpox, a lot of them, you know, and a blind or end up with physical ailments from this. We are learning that covid can cause people to have strokes or other forms of disabilities. If you are somebody who has been excavated, we have a long road of recovery after that. You may never fully recover from that and as this continues to spread thinking about how, you know, moving forward our policies can address those things and can do a better job of appearing for folks that have this different form of disability and provide better accommodation might be something that its certainly something that you can contribute moving forward. I want to thank all of you for four lending youre voices but definitely and there are many other people that we should be listening to in this time and that something our organization hopes to promote. I am going to end our time together because you will add in an hour a little over but i want to think three of you so much for joining us and all of you out there who asked excellent questions. Many of which we did not get a chance to answer. I apologize. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you all. Weeknights , what we are featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan 3. In the 2000 president ial election ten scrimmage or job you bush defeated vice present al gore and one of the highly contested races in u. S. History. The outcome was not decide until five weeks after voters went to the polls. The u. S. Supreme court stop the florida recount. This ultimately award of the states electoral votes and the presidency to governor bush. Tonight, we begin with al gores concession speech from december 13th 2000. Followed by george w. Bushs victory remarks and at the scene evening. Watch beginning at 8 pm eastern and enjoy American History tv every weekend on cspan 3. Every saturday on cspan 3 go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thank you for your patience and for logging into class. With most College Campuses arent closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to engage with their students. When reagan met him halfway. Reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, which will get through later, i should mention madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press and its indeed freedom to print things and publish things. It is not a freedom for what we now refer to as institutionally as the press. Lectures in history on American History tv on cspan three every saturday at 8 pm eastern. Lectures in history is also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Youre watching American History tv, every weekend on cspan 3. Explore our nations past. Cspan 3 created by American Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Tuesday morning, facebook ceo and twitter ceo answer questions about censorship, suppression of new york articles, and their complete henning of the 2020 election. They will testify before the Senate Judiciary committee, at 10 am eastern, on cspan 3. Online at cspan. Org, or you can listen on the free cspan radio app. Up next, on American History tv, democrat outdoors concession speech from december 13th, of 2000. Texas governor george w. Bush defeated Vice President gore in the general election in, one of the most highly contested races in u. S. History. The outcome was not decided until five weeks after voters went to the polls, when u. S. Supreme court stopped the florida recount. This ultimately awarded the states electoral votes and the presidency to governor bush. What good evening. Just moments ago i spoke with george w. Bush and congratulated him on becoming the 43rd president , of the United States. And i promised him that i wouldnt call him back this time. I offered to meet with him as