Exemplified the activist businessman that often stood at the center of the freedom struggle. A figure that is really frequently under analyzed and continues to be under analyzed i would add. He was often overlooked due to an emphasis on the more incendiary elements of the movement. Protests, mobilizations and other dramatic events. I should add that im on this panel because i in a previous life, i studied North Carolina civil rights history. And so, again, i can speak to the ways in which brandons book is making a really significant intervention here in the history, not only in the civil rights period and the writ at large, but also the Civil Rights Movement and struggle and the black struggle in North Carolina and particular. From winners perch at mechanics and farmers bank in durham, he occupied a critical space. He was a consummate insider and power player and understood the calculus of social change dictated various gated approaches to the pursuit of freedom. This is certainly something i want to knock around with doctor whitford in terms of the dynamic play we see with wheeler and the ways hes trying to move and operate and navigate in the middle of the 20th century. In the, book we are introduced to a figure that has the potential for and limits of social change. This is a muchneeded contribution to the historiography of black struggle, or the North Carolina and the larger region. We have lots of lots of pockets of scholarship and we are still dealing with the task of connecting the tissue when it comes to the civil rights period, when it comes to the role of activists, when it comes to the role of bankers and businessmen, the ways in which these roles emerge and the emerge in particular moments. Because of his influence and the length of his tenure in the business of politics, wheelers presence can be found in various monographs regarding the civil rights in North Carolina. To be sure, one cannot tell the story of the movement accurately for the entire state without mentioning wheeler and his many accomplishments. However, these frequent mentions have been no substitute for an indepth historical analysis of wheelers role in the movement, both in the state and in the nation. Brandons book fills a significant gap in the historical literature, in addition to reintroducing scholars and students to wheeler. The book illuminated the still under analyze relationship between black economic institutions, larger mainstream economic structures of the evolution of black freedom in the nation and in North Carolina in particular. The book also does the crucial work of crafting and institutional that serves as an important reminder of the role that mechanics and farmers and other black economic institutions played in the region during the movement. Brandon displays a very solid command of the sources at his disposal. I really needed the wheeler papers available when i was still working on my book, greater freedom for North Carolina. So i am green with envy that brandon was able to access these papers, and he does a great job with using them. That really comes out and shines through in his book. The presentation of the material i think is very thoughtful and thorough and meticulous. He has clearly spent a great deal of time with these sources. And it shows in the work. I think he has produced a work that will be essential reading for anyone doing research on civil rights in North Carolina and the region for some time to come. His insights on the perils and prospects of change from an institutional perch like the one wheeler possess will point the way toward an understanding of the necessity of creating more studies like this one that emphasize the here to four under analyzed historical intersections that he illuminates rather brilliantly in this book. His writing style is accessible. The wheeler story is rendered in a humane and critical fashion. I could go on and on about this book. I really appreciate brother brandon. I really appreciate your contribution. I appreciate this book. I think its also important to point out that john wheeler is a graduate of morehouse college. Thats always important to point out. Some of the takeaways in things that i am looking forward to chop it up with you brother and our guests, you talk about the nature of activism. You referred to black business activism. Im always curious about how people are thinking through and thinking about what activism can and should look like. So im curious about how you are thinking now that the book has been out for a little while, how you are thinking has matured and evolved when it comes to how you are thinking about activism and the types of activism that wheeler tried to engage in. I think about the late great ray gabonese who is a professor and mentor of mine, one of the daines of North Carolina civil rights history, a titan in the field. The title in his book was the perils and prospects of southern black leadership, a book by gordon blane hancock. That phrase, the perils and prospects, that is a phrase that knocks around in my mind a lot when i read your work, just in terms of the perils, the benefits, the high risks and high rewards associated with wheelers style and brand of leadership and also wheelers theory of change. I am curious about what we see in wheelers time has the perils and prospects of this style of leadership. What inroads was he able to make and freedom . How have these connections changed from our Vantage Point here in 2020 . Then the other question that we can knock around is a central notion of wheelers and folks for a large contingent in the movement. One of the Central Operating principles was that racism was bad for business. Right . The south could not move forward as an autonomous unit without addressing entrenched White Supremacy, without addressing the way and the deleterious impact of racism on all manner of institutions. That is a central notion. The eradication of racism, the active combatting of racism will move us forward. Racism is bad for business. So its sort of begs the question, what if its great for business . What if racism is actually making us really, really profitable . What if racism is not, in fact, bad for business . How do we contend with the persistence and the profitability of racism . We see this with the urban renewal, with the urban renewal controversy and wheelers time. How do we contend with these realities in his moment . Right . But how do we contend with those realities in this moment in terms of thinking about your work and putting your work in dialog. So thinking about the relationship we have, the relationship activists have, to the intractable nature of White Supremacy and the different sorts of analyses that we can produce when we think differently about that dynamic. And then finally, what does progress look like . You talk a lot in the book about progress and this is a very dynamic thing. What does it look like . We moved from progress being simple representation, representation is a complicated thing. We moved from that two instances of trying to make and sustain fundamental structural changes. Right . The nature of progress. How can and should it be utilized in an effort to secure greater freedom. I could go on and on, but i will not. So thats what i got. Its a great book. Im looking forward to chopping it up with you all about it. Its my great pleasure to be participating in this roundtable for professor win furred. And i have to say this and it will make me look like more of an old head, but i remember back in the quote unquote day meeting brandon at an association for the study of African American life and history conference more than ten years ago and knowing at that point that i met him that we would be at this point and in the not too distant future. I have always had a lot of respect for him and it makes us feel a bit more secure to know that the future of the historical profession in the black experience is in good hands. Brother mckinneys comments were so profound and insightful and introspective that i just hope that what i offered dovetails with much of what he said. Im not an expert in the history of African Americans in North Carolina. My comments are a bit broader, but i was thinking very deeply to brother mckinneys questions and comments that really got me thinking about a bunch of stuff, making me want to go back and reread the book myself. Wind furreds meticulously researched book uses wheeler is multifaceted life as a point of departure for exploring the possibilities of wet black leadership entailed in the jim crow south, mainly North Carolina more specifically. Winfords scholarship contributes to several overlapping historiography and historical sub fields, as professor mckinney pointed out, including black businesses, African American biography, black political history, the history of the black south, and the history of the long Civil Rights Movement. I thoroughly enjoyed reading winfords book. I would classified as being an intellectual and political biography of wheeler, a man who wore many different hats. He was the president of a black bank, and educator, a politician, a powerbroker, a member of the president s committee on equal employment opportunity, a contributor to the crafting these Civil Rights Act of 1964, first African American delegate to represent North Carolina in the dnc, a businessman, a lawyer, and like professor mckinney, i could go on and on. He was, in essence, a universal reform or who was involved in seeming list countless movements and struggles and monumental events and local and National Organizations were close to five decades. His rise to fame began in the era of the great depression. Its remarkable. Im a bit embarrassed that i was unaware of his contributions before reading winfords book. Winford argues that the role of black businesses in the Civil Rights Movement need to be reconceptualize by historians. He maintains that quote, if we are fully to understand how central economics was the Civil Rights Movement, we must consider black business. Moreover, wheeler and his civil rights agenda provides an instructive case study for this. Winford is old school in his approach to interpreting and framing history. I am a fan of this approach. He explains in a straightforward narrative style how wheeler viewed things in the past. At the same time, he does introduce a few concepts that helped describe his protagonist, including the notion of new south prosperity and the black business activists. Such concepts could be adopted in or expanded upon by future historians to write about African American leaders like wheeler. Winfords account chronologically explores wheelers upbringing, family history, and early years in order to demonstrate how he was socialized to embark on a career of banking, the law, politics, and Civil Rights Activism. Further conceptualizing wheeler s future endeavors, winford offers a history of the efforts of early black businessmen in durham, and the winford highlights the struggle for black educational quality and the segregation in North Carolina through the dawning of the modern Civil Rights Movement. He situated with his contributions to several landmark anti discrimination lawsuits during the period. His discussion of blue versus durham is particularly interesting. I thought the tactics of Charles Hamilton houston prior to brown versus the board of education something that generated on the man who killed jim crow. In the context of the conventional Civil Rights Movement, winford overviews the 1957 sit in movement in durham and student activism, while unpacking wheelers activism. He demonstrates that during the peak years of the modern Civil Rights Movement, wheeler, who supported student activist, adopted a unique approach, often operating in his own ways behind the scenes. The nuanced manner in which winford describes wheelers approach reminded me somewhat of booker ty washingtons shrewd strategies. Winford suggests that wheeler, especially in his role as a member of the president s committee on equal opportunity and as president of the Southern Regional council, was able to use his political influence and savvy to challenge employment discrimination, to fight for African AmericanVoting Rights, to advocate for African American representation in positions of power. And in the final chapter, windward explores wheelers work in the interim Redevelopment Commission and the North Carolina fund. According to winford, wheeler helped by going from housing the many africans that democratize the practices. At the same time winford acknowledges that wheelers support of urban renewal projects had a short coming. His brand of black business activism did not always truly benefit the most of African Americans. In his brief conclusion, winford touches upon wheelers legacy, symbolized in the naming of the u. S. Courthouse in durham after him in 2018. Winfords work is much more than simply an account of an under acknowledged and influential black leaders life work and accomplishments. While he certainly tells us everything that i think we need to know about wheelers time on earth, he adeptly places wheeler within numerous historical context. He points to how the leader evolved during his life, and he reveals how wheeler interacted with his contemporaries, junior activists, and local and National Policy makers. Equally important while doing so, winford avoids the pitfalls of hay geography. He addresses the socalled five seas of historical planting. He demonstrates the ability to think creatively and critically, and he strives to understand why his subjects thought and acted in the manners that they did. The final word on wheeler, most likely, has not been written. As one seasoned biographer has remarked, the notion of a definitive biography is fictitious. But, one thing remains certain in my mind. Future historians and scholars who seek to explore wheelers life and work will be compelled to use when for its book as a starting point. He is after all the leading authority on this historical figure, and i believe that winford as indeed set a high bar. Thank you so much. Theres not much that i can add. Not much more than i can add but more superlatives. The striking tone of brandon winfords biography captures an austere and dignified John Hervey Wheeler. His head is likely cocked, wheeler pierce intensely off to the side, perhaps at some unseen collaborator, but just as likely to an unwitting opponent. We are spent much of his professional life as an executive in the African Americanowned mechanics and executives bank North Carolina. He started as a bank teller and worked his way up to Bank President in the early 1950s. The engagement backroom racial diplomacy as well as waging frontline battles for economic and civil rights. In his book, doctor winford uncovers wheelers pivotal role in the civil rights struggle from the 19 1950s to the 1970s. In many ways, a generation of social and cultural historians being emancipated by the movement for black freedom in the mid 20th century. These historians transformed u. S. Historical methods scholarship. Doctor winford makes an important salvo in the scholarship it takes a harder look into the economic dimensions of the Civil Rights Movement. These reconsiderations are occurring in response to the unmistakable push from the sources to pay closer attention to how activists put their money where their mouths were. Into the insistent pole to untangle the roots of economic inequalities in our present time. The achievements of the Civil Rights Movement in terms of removing illegal barriers to accessing education, boating and to public spaces, stand in stark contrast to the persistent wealth gaps and economic insecurity and lack of wellbeing that continue to plague African American communities. In addition to reassessing the movement success on questions of Economic Justice, scholars are rethinking the roles, scholars like doctor winford, are rethinking the roles of African AmericanBusiness Leaders. Traditional narratives often judge the Business Elite as inherently conservative and resistant to social change. They argue these elites kind of capitulated to white power structures and defended racial segregation because of their dependence on African American consumers. Doctor winford complicates this onedimensional assessment, revealing the complex engagements with the u. S. Political economy among elite African AmericanBusiness Leaders and elite institutions like African American banks. His work explodes the simplistic fine areas of accommodation, protest, of civil rights with black power. Doctor winford offers, as my other colleagues said, a meticulously detailed and thoroughly researched book that is laced with regulatory insights into the treacherous racial, class and economic terrain African Americans like we learn advocated in the long civil rights struggle. Doctor winfords biography reveals the multiple ways African American elites argue for the Critical Role of Economic Justice in the fight for greater inclusion, and not just u. S. Society, but also the economy. So both doctor winford and i have spent more than a decade working on remarkable black Business Leaders. Passionate, committed social activists, and complicated human beings. For me, its maggie walker, the first woman thanked president and of course wheeler. We both understand the necessity of not becoming an elaborate of our subjects, but neither of us can deny the extraordinaryness of the people who have ignited our imaginations and animated our scholarship. I cannot miss this opportunity and my last couple of minutes to share with the roundtable and with those watching, something about the extraordinaryness of my scholar brother brandon. Brandon is a consummate professional. Anyone who knows him. In late 2014 when i began looking for contributors as a coeditor of a special issue on African American business, a special issue for the journal of African American history, a colleague told me about brandon. She really reminded me about brandon because we had crossed paths a couple of times, particularly through my mentor doctor juliette walker, and brandon made it a point always to stay in touch, to meet up for coffee conferences. Over the years, we have showed shared our work. He comes up with these fabulous ideas for workshops. He sends me incredible pictures and sources and we dream about our future collaborations. In closing, i am reminded of one spirited Text Exchange we had a little while back about a popular book that will remain nameless. I remember telling brandon that foot was missing from this work was a recognition, indeed a respect for the creative ways that black people worked around White Supremacy. All the forces that told them no, you cannot and you will not succeed. I wrote texts that you needed to love black people if you are going to talk about how they dreamed of possibility and freedom. I can say unequivocally that brandons love of black people is so wide, so long, so high and so deep. I tell you we are not ready for what he has in store for us and how he will transform and push forward the field of black businesses history in the new millennium. And so i do want, since we have a little bit of time, i do want to give dr. Winford a chance to perhaps addressing the comments from the other panelists. So doctor mckinneys questions about the nature of black business activism or what does progress look like or wet if racism is good for business. Also address any other issues that he might want to. Good afternoon. Thank you all for attending today. First, let me thank doctor for putting together the panel. I have been impressed with these month long virtual conferences. I really have learned so much over the past couple of weeks. Certainly the latter of the inaugural roundtable. Let me just thank my fellow roundtable panelists doctors shennette garrettscott, Charles Mckinney and pero dagbovie. I cant put into words how thankful ive been for their encouragement and support through the years, reading my work, writing letters of support. Its really just always sharing their wisdom and good advice and nuggets. I have long admired their work, but all so the last point shennette made, theyre examples as selfless scholars is always what stands out to me. Right . Scholarship stands out with those examples of what it means to be a scholar. When it means to love black people is something that really sort of stands out. I will now take a moment to answer just some of those questions posed by charles. Speaking also to some of the critical points made by pero and shennette. I will talk about the sources and access to sources. I initially inquired about the john willard papers in 2006. The papers ended up being fully processed in 2016. That was a tenyear period where the library made the materials available to me, but i had to do some old school no taking. I could not take digital images. I could not get photocopies. Then when they were processed and i came back to it, you know, to transition to the book from a dissertation, i was kind of lost. I had already looked at this, but i did not know where it was. So that was a really great process in that it forced me to digest the materials and to make decisions about what can i take notes on. But can i cross reference in other collections across the country . So it really sort of made me work from that standpoint. I really got to know these sources from that standpoint. For people interested in this kind of work, black business and civil rights, there are 109 on your feet of materials in the john Herbert Wheeler papers the John Hervey Wheeler papers. This is in fact a crime of what is possible from the John Hervey Wheeler collection. A crime in terms of what we can say about him and his activism and his career. Then also what can be said more broadly about like business. Im excited by the possibilities of the other kinds of projects that will come out of the jon wheeler papers. So i want to sort of address this critical point. This question about the changing nature of activism. John wheeler, when he begins activism in the forties, this is amid the end aa cpc legal strategy. He comes in at a particular moment. He goes to law school in the 1940s and looks at the possibility of him becoming a lawyer. Its critical in this sort of post war period. One of the things that he often said was, and particularly about talking about sort of generational transfers of leadership, is he often said that those black leaders who came before him. , they had to be very careful. In how they approached and dealt with a white leadership. They had to basically walk a fine line because they didnt have the kind of legal redress that later Civil Rights Activists would have. So we have to be very careful. Right . Because there was danger in asserting civil Citizenship Rights for African Americans. He understood this very much so. So when i think about this idea of the changing nature of activism, i think about it in terms of how jon wheeler sort of looked at the changing nature of activism. He kind of articulated the struggle for civil rights as uncertain faces. You talked about illegal phase and the reaction to his. And he talked about the implementation case. One could argue that, with the implementation phase, it was actually something that he felt was more challenging back in america because that is when you began to sort of really challenge institutionalized racism. To really sort of access to resources in terms of what African Americans could get. When you talk about the changing nature of leadership, i think his activism ones as much in response to the strategies that were necessary, and also the ways in which strategies could, you could build on strategies. Right . Within that context, he sort of looked at it from that standpoint. I think he understood that, as time moved forward and a certain strategies sort of came to their and, one had to find other ways. I think thats why hes so engage in student activism during the 1960s. This book was foundational. The prospects of southern black leadership. A foundational text from my work. Trying to really understand about generational transference of leadership, how to write biography and how to sort of engage ideas really to sort of how to sort of think about someone who doesnt really fit in a box. I got a lot of feedback from folks who encouraged to me not to think about john wheeler as this radical, as this moderate. Right . He didnt like those kinds of terms. He did not like the term moderate. So once i began to sort of think of him outside the box, i could really start to understand his sense of activism. He wasnt necessarily beholden to a kind of activism. Right . He was interested in strategies that would help him work toward his larger goals of economic rights for African Americans. So, citizenship for African Americans as a pathway to black economic power. Ultimately, that was important for this idea of new south prosperity. Right . So i will save some of that for the constitution and answer period. The question and answer period. One of the things im dealing more with in transitioning from john wheeler as a banker, im coming more interested in the questions about how do we consider and think about black business and black banks and bankers on their own terms. We often talk about it in terms of their limitations and with they could not do for the African American community because of the limits of access to the larger marketplace. But im interested in looking at them on terms. Im interested in customers. Interested employees. Im interested in the community what happens with communities inside the bank . When you engage this site of Economic Life for African Americans. So part of that ongoing conversation deals with that. So in my comments right there, because i know were running short on time so im looking forward to the culinary time. We do, and we have two questions, and for the interest of time im gonna give you both questions so you can answer them both. And if we get another one, so the first question, i want to read the question and then im going to perhaps explain when i think it is that she is asking. So shes asking should blacks show empathy for the new, financially struggling experimental u. S. , if we were given equality after the American Revolution . With the usb more or less vulnerable to being enslaved due to equality or expense for the trip back to africa. I think that miss neals is asking is a question about should blacks should look at the current kind of financial picture of the country. And really tie that back to the slavery and missed opportunities for African Americans, and how should African Americans, i think, should perhaps see the United States political economy nationally and globally. And then we have another question from kendra boyd. She asks, she says, i really enjoyed reading the book, can you talk a little bit more about wheelers relationship with his wife . And how she influenced his activism . So, with that her first question, its really a complicated question, and one of the ways i will answer this is this. I like to think about this post civil war period, this right directly at the civil war. In where id like to think about it is these ideas of economic emancipation. And janette in her book is a really good job of giving us this sort of economic transitional from slavery to freedom. But one of the things that we all have to think about is the ways, reconstruction is exercising or becoming the sense of political democracy. We talk a lot about politics and things nature. One of the things we dont talk about is this idea of how something my reconstruction was this economic democracy. You are looking at the ways in which African Americans had an economic understanding of their freedom, from the very beginning. So i think its important for us to understand our own sort of a dreams of economic freedom, and economic independence, and how best to go about achieving those possibilities. In this current moment, i like to use a term that we really got a sense that our country and institutions, we were all living sort of paycheck to paycheck. And in this moment, things like, covid police brutality, all of that, he is showing us the limitations of capitalism. The fact that there were no systems in place to help spain on sustaining us in this moment of crisis. So when i think about African Americans in their economic positioning, we see some of where we are today, and thinking about the cause of this moment. So i think there are lessons and strategies from these entrepreneurs, even today, we are creating other kinds of strategies to maneuver economically around this traditional systems. So thats one way im kind of thinking about that question. In terms of cancerous question, i think thats a really good question. The wheeler, her father was one of the cofounders of the mechanics and farmers bank. When they got married, and when jon wheeler went to ask her father for her hand in marriage, her father told her she was not going to sit at home. So when they got married, it was an understanding that she was going to said about moving forward in her career, as much as he was going to move forward in his career. And she becomes his librarian. She preserves African American culture and literature as the head of the Black Library. One of the things that she was able to do in that sense, was to put together a forum for African Americans to come together and discuss works like paul murray. She set up a thing like a book mobile. So in her career, she sort of moved the Black Library toward this sense of modernity. And she positioned it to become a part of the city library system. In terms of her activism, separate from john wheelers, she was very involved in womens organizations in europe. She was in the Civil Rights Movements in the sixties. She was pivotal in ensuring that student activists had facilities where they could strategize, but also where they could sort of take a break. Shes very much in parallel, sort of running parallel to john hurry wheeler. Im sorry to interrupt you. I think we have have a sense of her activism. But now actually have three more questions. Go ahead. Im sorry. So we have a question from devin fergus, he actually asks three questions. So i will pick just one, but im sure that you can talk with him afterwards. Ill ask his last question which is how does the book at the color of money paralegal or diverge when it comes to your understanding of wheeler, in particular, and with the mechanics and farmers bank institutionally . And then ill jogged in with the other two questions. So, one of the thing about this its a really smart book. It is more of a legislative history of the impact of the field of banking on black Economic Life. More so, than it ever is a history of black banking. And in that, it does along with public policy. So in that, i think she provides some of the history of black businesses and black banking. Which is not in detail, but then she goes sort of skips over black banking. The nuances, the ways in which the black banks and where they were in existence, they make impact, and they had an impact on the African American communities. Churches, schools, black home ownership. So i think that conversation gets overlooked, because were thinking so much about the comparative analysis of where African American banks. And by 1959, the combined resources of the African American bank was about 40 billion dollars. So we tend to think about the failures of limitations of black banking outside of the context of understanding in our own terms. But its a really smart book. Really about the policy, its legislative history at banking, and the impact of black Economic Life. And also, it doesnt really do that much when it comes to black banking in the south. Which is what im really interested in. And by 1910, the majority of the African American banks, wherein operation in the south. So i think theres a lot we can do about having that conversation about that broader history. All right, great. So we have another question from wanda williams. She asks, did we learn favor activisms dad targets Financial Independence in the form of strengthening this still untapped like consumer strength over wiped obtained the allegiance later channels . And im gonna join that with a question from doctor margaret brisk go, who is asking about how wheeler addresses black wealth in light of the fact that lacks spent less than 5 on black businesses. So those two questions about the role of buying black, and with the white economic rights look like. I think those are really, really good russians. So one of my big points of the book, and folks like julia walker and others, they really pointed out that there is a sense that African American businesses that were successful, they benefited from segregation. So they were not so much interested in coming with integration. If you look at john wheeler, and his examples, and the ways in which he discusses economic rights, its the exact opposite. Because he believed that black owned institutions, and his bank in particular, were limited in their possibilities. Limited to a specific clientele, African American customers. Even in, that they still had to compete with white banks. So even then, they didnt have an exclusive lock on black customers and black clientele. So his activism, with the civil rights and economic rights, were very much sort of thinking about, or in line with, what was going to happen to black institutions with the coming of integration. So he was very much interested in tapping a larger marketplace, to expand his bank. He believed he could be compete with any bank of comparable size. No in that, this question about whats segregation was going to do to these institutions. They understood the particular impact and the possibilities of black institutions declining post integration. One of the things, and he was an integration in east in terms of this framework, one of the things that was really important was that integration had to be worked out. And in that, he didnt see black institutions, whether were talking about schools, churches, so forth and so on businesses, he didnt see the decline or the end of blackowned institutions. He felt that with integration, a blackowned institutions would be strengthened. Solely but there, but in practice, that wasnt necessarily the case. But he really was serious about the ways in which integration had to be worked out. It wasnt about banning black owned institutions and white institutions, not at all. We have two more questions and i will give them both to you. They doubled all youve just been talking about. So kimberly jordan talks about her family and community and church and how they banked fake that the bank, how muellers were members of the same country club. But she saying that you never heard him referred to as a civil rights leader. And shes asking, do you consider wheelers making the black middle class more accessible to black people a kind of activism . So class question. And then the last question will be from vincent when drove who asks, how did leaders like wheeler leverage their memberships in fraternal organizations, like oh my gosh scifi and prince all masons . Really great questions. The way that i sort of like to wheeler is a banker, and he was in the leader position politically. He led the committee on your affairs, which had significant bite. And there were a lot of instances where things didnt go his way, and we will challenged him. But he used to fact that he was a banker. He had the money. So i think thats really important, as we sort of understand the limits of black leadership. But i also have to think about his role in black education quality. His role in Voting Rights for African Americans. So there are some things that definitely, and also from the porch of his middle class status, he actually doesnt have to do what hes doing as a business activist. One of the things that he often said is he said even economically, and in many ways he could, he said he always felt that he was already a part of the american society. Free to do what he wanted to do, go where he wanted to go. Within, there were certain ceilings. So for him, as a business person, and someone is part of the black middle class coming from atlanta, to take that kind of action role that he actually ended up taking, was in and of itself a kind of bonus. So i think part of the ways in which you have to look at these figures, is we do have to think more and more complicated ways, you have to think about class, we have to think about gender. But i also think that we have to sort of get outside of what these leaders should be within the structures of class, within those particular dynamics. And i think we can better understand their motivations, when we do that. So thats one way that im thinking about that particular question. In terms of this memberships, he was a member of so many organizations. And i will sort of and here. He said, and this is kind of a criticism and a limitation in many ways, he was beholden to institutions. In other words, his goto strategies where the legal approach, organized pressure through organization, and also, being a part of the political process, was very much important. He was a part of the Democratic Party both in the state, and he had positions when the. State so all those organizations that he was a part of, he used, those were parts of a civil rights agenda. He leveraged his influence and all of those organizations to impact his ideas about citizenship. The ways in which that sort of interconnected with this idea of black economic power. And ultimately, new south prosperity. Thank you so much. Thank you to the panelists and for all of the great questions. Thank you all very much. I appreciate those comments. Thank you for the questions. Those questions are going to be used toward my next book as well. Definitely. Really good questions. Thank you all. The panel scholars talks about detroits history of african er