Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hiroshima Nagasaki And End Of World War II 20240711

Airplane dropped atomic bomb on hiroshima and that bomb has more power of 20,000 tons of tnt. The japanese began the war from the air at pearl harbor. They have been repaid many fold, and the end is not yet. With this bomb, we have now added a new and revolutionary increase in destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In their present form, these bombs are now in production, and even more powerful bombs are in development. It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the far east. We are now prepared to destroy more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the japanese have in any city. We shall destroy their docks, theyre factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake, we shall completely destroy japans power to make war. It was to spare the japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of july 26th was issued at potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware. Ian toll is an author and independent scholar, a pacific war historian and set to release his latest book twilight of the gods, war in the western pacific 1944 to 1944. Ian toll, welcome to the washington journal on the 75th anniversary. Thank you very much. Im glad to be here. We have heard from the former president harry truman after the hiroshima bombing. From your research and study of the war and the bombings in particular, why did harry truman do it . Well, you know, i think the decision to use the bomb was really implicit in the manhattan project. So it was really assumed from the time, before the time that truman came to office in april, after the death of fdr, that this weapon, if it worked, that it would be used. And so it may be more accurate to say that there was a nondecision essentially. Truman did not decide to intervene, to stop a project that was very much in train when he came into office. The assumption had been made that if that if we built the bomb, and if we had the bomb we would use the bomb to bring the war to an end. I think the perspective that we have now that the atomic bomb, you know, is essentially different from conventional weapons. Thats something we have in hindsight. For truman and his advisers, in 1945, i dont think that was clear to them, that the atomic bomb was fundamentally different from conventional bombs. We had already wiped out an enormous percentage of japans urban areas when conventional bombing and incendiary raids. So using the atomic bomb did not seem like sort of a break or departure from what they had already been doing. It is really with hindsight that we understand that weapon to be something basically different, in a different category. Is it true that harry truman, when he assumed the presidency, after fdrs death, april 12th of 1945, that, one, harry truman did not know anything about the manhattan project. Two, how did he learn about it in the space of less than four short months . How did he become confident in his decision to use those weapons . Yes, it is true that he was not briefed on the manhattan project. He been vaguely aware that there was a very large, very secret, very expensive project underway. In the senate, before he was put on the ticket as fdrs Vice President ial candidate in 1944, the most important thing that he had done in the senate, the thing that made his name was that he chaired a committee which investigated corruption and waste in the munition industry. This is called the truman committee. And in his capacity as chairman of that investigative senate committee, he had learned about these enormous plants that were being built in tennessee and in washington state, and he had inquired and begun to use his investigative resources to try to determine what exactly was happening there. And secretary stimson, Henry Stimson was the secretary of war, essentially went to truman and said were doing something really important and it is very secret, and were going to ask you not to inquire any further and truman agreed. So when he very suddenly with fdrs death was elevated to the presidency, he was briefed on stimson and by james burns who was the war mobilization czar who truman subsequently appointed as secretary of state. And he was fully briefed within about 24 hours of assuming the presidency on the state of the manhattan project. It is the 75th anniversary of the bombing of hiroshima. Bombi. Were talking about it with ian toll, whose brand new book is coming out in september, twilight of the gods warn in the western pacific 19441945. The lines as they were for last hour, 202748000. For those of you, world war ii vets or family, 2027488002. And japaneseamericans 2027488003. One of the questions that came up last hour, why didnt the u. S. Do some sort of demonstration of the bomb to show the japanese its power instead of actually using it on a city . Yeah, i mean, you know, i think that thats a hard question. You know, in my view the really hard questions when it comes to the atomic bomb is not so much should we have used the bomb or not, given the circumstances in the summer of 1945, the urgent need to end the war and to end the war quickly without an invasion, i think in those circumstances using the bomb, i think, was defensible. Dropping it on a city is a different question. And i think im in a minority really among military historians, and this is a preference i have, that i would have liked to see the weapon used against a military target. The question of a demonstration has also been raised. You know, there are arguments against a demonstration are that number one it might have backfired. If you had announced you were going to demonstrate the bomb, and it hadnt worked, which is a real possibility, that would potentially have redoubled japanese determination to resist. I do think there would be a way to demonstrate the bomb without running into that problem. Dropping it very high in the atmosphere, off the coast, say, of tokyo, off of tokyo bay, you know, would have made an i nor mouse flash. It would have sent a message to the japanese. I dont think that would have prompted a rapid surrender. So, you know, the reason that you might have done that, really, is abstract. Its an abstract reason and you do it because in the long run it may be it may enhance the countrys moral standing. You know, i do think thats important. But youve had some callers who are who have fathers or grandfathers who are in the war. For american veterans, particularly those who would have participated in6xyk well, yes, hiroshima had a really important Regional Military headquarters, the second army was headquartered in hiroshima. Hiroshima had been an army town, going back to the days of the samurai. So there was an important military target in hiroshima. The city was not chosen for that reason. None of the four cities on the target list for the atomic bombs, hiroshima, nagasaki, nagata, on the sea of japan, and kokura, on the northern tip of the island of kushu. Those cities had not been chosen because of their military character and the military installations that were in those cities were not specified as the aiming points for the bombs. The cities were chosen because they had been relatively unscathed in conventional bombing raids and the idea was that you wanted to drop the bomb on a city that had the topography and the conditions that would provide the greatest demonstration to the bombs power. And so yes. No, finish your thought. Yeah, so, you know, it is true that there was, you know, an important army base in hiroshima. Now in the clip that you played from by president truman, you know, upon announcing the first atomic bomb he said that we had hit an important Japanese Army base. Right. Well, hiroshima was a large city, it was the seventh largest city in japan with a base in it. So, you know, i think just from the point of view of looking back with 75 years of perspective, you know, in that situation, you would prefer that the president of the United States, you know, look into the eye of the camera and tell the world exactly what we had done without mincing words, without using that kind of circumlocution. Was there a third bomb ready to be dropped in case the japanese did not surrender . The third bomb would have become available by the end of august. On august 6th we hit hiroshima, august 9th we hit nagasaki. We did not have a third bomb at that point. It would have been another two to three weeks. Ian toll is our guest, your calls are next. Charles in richard monday, virginia, good morning. Caller yes, good morning. Its very interesting when you hear those depictions. One thing about why they dropped the bomb is because america was so passionate against japan. Japan had pulled a sneak attack on pearl harbor, and we didnt even know that the war was it should have been a war declarer and japan didnt do that. What happened when the bomb became available truman knew a thing about it. All you knew hed just become president. They didnt really like him. And they put it to him, look, we have this bomb. To me, it was already you cant drop an atomic bomb and say, well, lets drop it tomorrow, lets drop it next week. They had already planned, everything was planned for the bomb. And really didnt make a difference what truman had to say because it was in the works and the United States was going to drop that bomb. All right, charles, ian toll, do you think that the president had a say in that . Well, absolutely. I mean, the constitution confers enormous powers. Virtually Unlimited Power as commander in chief in wartime. And so, you know, truman had the power to simply tell his cabinet and his military leaders, you know, we will use the bomb, we wont use the bomb, were going to use the bomb in the following way. So i dont think theres any question that he had the power to make the decision. I do think that its true, as charles said, that the motive of revenge was in the mix there. I think that was, you know wouldnt say that was the reason that we used the weapon the way we did but it certainly did set the context, the sneak attack on pearl harbor, japanese atrocities against civilians, the treatment of prisoners of war, these were all factors that played into the decision to use the atomic bomb and also to burn down japanese cities with incendiary bombing raids. But yes, truman certainly could have simply decided, he wouldnt have had to ask for permission, wouldnt have to have his military chiefs or cabinet take a vote on the question. He could have simply said were not going to hit a city. Or we are going to explicitly warn the japanese that we have this weapon. In fact, in his private diary on july 25th theres a very strange entry where he says actually he says i have instructed secretary stimson, the secretary of war, to use this weapon against military targets and not against women and children. And i have also instructed him to that we will make an explicit warning to the japanese telling them to surrender. Now, thats odd because he didnt give that order but in his diary he seems to have believed it, or perhaps he wanted to, you know, have future historians, you know, believe that the whole decision had been made differently. But certainly he had the power. And one of the fascinating counterfactual questions is if fdr had lived how would have fdr decided to use the bomb . He certainly wouldnt have been at all he wouldnt have hesitated at all to make his own decision. He was accustomed to doing that. Lets hear from anthony in north creek, new york on our line for world war ii veterans and families. Caller good morning. Im calling for my father and his two brothers. My father went into the army in february of 41. He fought in the philippines. He fought in iwojima and okinawa and occupation in japan. He came home in late 1946. We never found out why he he never talked about the war until he got older and he was against them dropping the bomb. But then he says if we would have had a fight, fight them, we would have had to invade japan, i probably would have never came home. So it was a flip of a coin. And my personal opinion, if i had to make that decision, i would say, yeah. His brothers were one was in normandy. He was a para trooper in the 101 and my other uncle was also a medic. Those people from that generation they fought hard and they fought for our country. When i talk about my father and brothers, im proud of them. Ian toll, a map from your book, one of the planned invasions, part of the planned invasion of japan, is that figure of a predicted anticipated 1 million u. S. Military casualties fairly accurate in terms of across the board, is that from your research as well . Well, no. I mean, if the question is at the time that we were planning operation downfall, operation olympic was the first stage of downfall. That was the inviolation of kyushu, the Southern Island of japan. At the time the military leaders were planning that operation there was never a point at which they were projecting casualties on the order of a million. Theres been quite a lot of work done on this because by historians and researchers because of how often you hear that kind of figure, we might have lost a million or half a million. The answer seems to be that the casualty projections were significantly lower than that. And, you know, its a disputed point and there were different casualty figures, different ways of thinking about it. But at no point did our military leaders, while planning that operation, at no point did they expect something on the order of a million casualties. The projections were much lower, you know maybe as many as 200 total casualties. Now, you know, that doesnt really tell us much about the atomic bomb decision. You know, theres not a you cant say, well, casualties would have been lower so we should have invaded. You know, i think invading would have been a disaster. Regardless of what kind of casualties we would have taken. And so avoiding a bloody invasion of japan was absolutely essential. And thats why i think using the atomic bomb was inevitable. As i say using it against a city is a different question. I dont think we should have dropped it on a city. We should have avoided that, i believe. Thats just my preference, my belief. But, you know, as the caller, you know, mentioned, i mean, there were so many people in this country who have fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers, uncles who are veterans of that war, and who really believe that their lives were on the line. And thats something that i respect very deeply. Its interesting that the caller said that his i think it was his father, he said, had been in japan with the occupation after the war and that he had his personal belief had been that we should not have dropped the atomic bomb. Just a last comment, one of the really interesting phenomenon when you look at veterans of the pacific war is that those who were in japan after the war, with the occupying forces, they tended to have a much more kind of nuanced view of the japanese. In fact, many of them came to like the japanese generally as a people and they were more ready to kind of make the distinction between the way Japanese Fighting forces had had behaved during the war and the way that the japanese people are in general. They were more willing to make that distinction because of the personal exposure they had had to japan and to the japanese in the nation of japan after the war. Our line for japaneseamericans is 2027488003. On that line in los angeles, scott, good morning. Caller good morning. Im half japanese and my father was drafted in world war ii. My grandfather was drafted by the Japanese Army and fought in man churia. I keep seeing every year, when they talk about pearl harbor, that america was attacked unprovoked, which is not true. Truman says on that clip that youve shown, like charles said on the in the call, that japan bombed pearl harbor unprovoked. Thats not true. The flying tigers were flying under the awg, under secret order of the president and until 1996 when either i think it was ray it was either reagan or clinton acknowledged that the flying tigers were part of the military because they got the va benefits. Then it showed that the awg was under military payment by the United States government through the company of shanote. I keep hearing of this japanese unprovoked attack when thats not true. Im not saying the war wasnt a bad thing because it was a very terrible thing of what japan did to china, parts of russia, to the philippines, to the americans and the people who actually ended up fighting with them. It was they were terrible things that happened. All right, scott, well get a response from our guest, ian toll. Yeah, well, i mean, you know, i think the you know, the count against the japanese for the way they began the war was not so much that it was an unprovoked attack. Fdr said it was unprovoked in his speech to congress the day following the attack, but that there was no formal declaration of war prior to the attack. So it was the idea of a sneak attack, a surprise attack, that really infuriated americans. You know, the attack had been planned under cover of diplomatic talks. We were engaged in, you know, negotiations directly with the japanese government to try to adjust the you know, the differences that we had in the pacific, and that attack suddenly descended on pearl harbor without a declaration of war. And so yeah that, i think, played into the particular brutality of the pacific war. Scott didnt say what his father, i believe he said, did when he was drafted. But, you know, one of the i think most interesting stories about the pacific war and little herd is the role of japaneseamericans who, you know, worked as interpreters, who worked as language officers, who helped develop propaganda messages to aim at the japanese. And it was an essential role in places like okinawa, the heroism of the japaneseamerican soldiers who, you know, went down to the caves and negotiated directly with Japanese Forces trying to encourage them to surrender. At enormous personal risk. Thats one of the, you know, Great Stories about the pacific war, its not as familiar to people. All right, to gene in buoy, maryland, good morning. On our line for vets and families. Go ahead. Caller good morning. I was 12 years old when we declared war on the japanese. I was the youngest of five children. My three brothers and a sister all were in active duty in the military. The for two reasons, one personal and one family. We loved trumans decision. My two brothers at the time of the just before the invasion, my two brothers were in combat, two of them were in combat in the navy in the pacific. One was in pd booth and the other on a fuel tanker. Both had close calls with death and my mother knew ill never forget how my mother was absolutely terrified every time the telephone rang for about the last four months of the war. A second reason, and this one is just more personal for myself, this i cannot forget about the japanese, im sorry, but the way they treated prisoners. My sister was a naval nurse at Chelsea Naval hospital, there were ten nurses. She wanted to stay in the navy but she had to get she wanted to get married in october 41, and the naval officer she was not allowed to stay in the navy. That was the rule. So she had to leave the navy and get married. The nine girls that were there, and i remember them vividly, they used to come out to our home in massachusetts, and play tennis. Full of life and wonderful young ladies. They were ill just say this, they were caught in the patan death march and after the war i asked my sister if she called the supervisor and see what happened to those young ladies, there was nine of them. Seven died and two were, quote, strapped down insane. They didnt have the medicines for people who had been through what those girls had been through. So in civil words, we were for trumans decision. But theres one other fact. And this one ive almost never heard mentioned, i think its maybe true. That the People Killed in the hiroshima bomb were not all japanese. I believe, in hiroshima, and killed were more than 20,000 korean slave workers and i believe its also true in nagasaki. Id like if the historian could help, is that true there were tens of thousands of slave workers killed in the bombings, its never mentioned. All right, gene. Yes, it is true, it is true. I dont know if it was 20,000 but that sounds like it might be about the right number of koreans who were working in hiroshima. And, you know, an enormous number of koreans. And to a lesser extent chinese were killed in the atomic bombings as well as in the conventional bombing raids. There were also there were westerners in japan, you know, there were about almost 1 of the population of japan during the Second World War had been christians or were christians. Some of them were secretly christians. So christianity actually had a foothold in japan going back several centuries because the missionaries who had come from portugal and spain. Some of the most compelling eyewitness accounts of the bombing of hiroshima are by jesuit catholic priests who were european or, you know, german. And so, you know, these cities were i wouldnt say they were international, but to the extent that there were foreigners living in japan they tended to be living in the large cities. And so, yes, they were affected in both of the atomic bombings. Were there any american p. O. W. S in either city . There were yes, there were american p. O. W. S in the area of both hiroshima and nagasaki. And, you know, a number of personal accounts came out after the war about the you know, their having witnessed the bombings. I believe there were even p. O. W. S who believed that they had heard or seen a flash or both hiroshima and nagasaki which gives you some idea of how far away, you know, it was possible to see and hear these explosions. Next up is frank in lexington, north carolina, good morning. Caller good morning. Thank you for letting me share. And im calling in for my father. I have his new testament that he carried and he made notes in this during his service. He was a Navy Corpsman attached to the marine corps. Left sigh tan for japan, september 16th, 1945. He had been training for the invasion as a Navy Corpsman attached to the marine corps. He arrived in japan september 22nd, 1945. Sasipo, japan is the sea port next to inland nagasaki. Nagasaki. Yup. Caller two weeks after being there, two weeks after being there, he was on both sides, at least from the Veterans Administration information, he was all around nagasaki and he talked to me some about treating the people that had been survivors. But within two weeks his whole unit got deathly sick. And they were, at that point, near to mojo, japan, halfway between hiroshima and nagasaki, which as his surviving son, my father passed away at age 54 in 1977. And all his siblings, my aunts and uncles have lived to a ripe old age and i will to this day believe that the radiation from the bomb there in september, his whole unit was exposed and i just think that was part of the reason for his premature death. He was questioned thoroughly by doctors about his cancer and his service in japan in 1977. My mother was a registered nurse. So we he had asked a lot of questions. I think i was about 10 years old and i asked my father, ive heard the word armageddon at sunday school and i asked him about it and he said, son, ive already been there, you never want to see it. Frank in north carolina. Ian toll, your thoughts. Yes, of course, you know, if you want to talk about how the atomic bomb was different from conventional bombings this issue of radiation is one of the first things that you consider. It was, you know, as late admiral William Lahey was the chairman of the joint chiefs after the war, left a scathing passage in his postwar memoir saying that he thought it had been a moral atrocity to drop this weapon on a city. And it was this revelation that he had that, you know, this was a poison weapon. He said he didnt understand that until the bomb was dropped and you had these reports of radiation poisoning. And, you know, i think that our government and i think general mcarthur, Supreme Commander in japan after the war they suppressed really all discussion of this issue of radiation. And they did so in a way that allowed some of our own servicemen to be exposed, you know, which i think is really a historical, you know, a great disgrace, really. It was a great disgrace that we allowed our own forces to be exposed in hiroshima and nagasaki without allowing them to fully understand the risks involved in radiation. The last thing he said that his dad was a Navy Corpsman. They were among, really, the most heroic people on the battlefields. They exposed themselves directly to enemy fire, to treat wounded on the battlefield, to pull wounded off the field to safety. And also suffered some of the highest casualty rates at places like iwojima in particular and okinawa. Ian toll is our guest, the author of the trilogy, the war in the pacific, Second World War, his latest published in september, twilight of the gods war in the western pacific 19441945. We welcome your calls and comments. 2027488000, and 8001 for mount and pacific. World war ii vets and families the line 2027488002. And for japaneseamericans 2027488003. Ian toll we have a photo in the book and weve shown video of what part of tokyo looked like after repeated fire bombings of that city. Why did the u. S. Not continue with that strategy . Appears to be equally as destructive as some of the photographs and video we see after nagasaki and hiroshima. Yeah, well, i mean, the fire bombings were continuing right up to the end of the war. We were still running conventional bombing raids over japan, even after nagasaki. And as you say those incendiary bombing raids most likely, if you take all of the incendiary and conventional bombing raids of japanese cities the number of japanese civilians killed in those conventional bombing attacks exceeded the number that were killed in hiroshima and nagasaki. The first great fire bombing, really enormous fire bombing of tokyo that occurred on the night of march 10th and 11th 19, 1945, its very hard to say exactly how many people that killed. Partly because all of the government records in the neighborhoods that were wiped out were destroyed and you had people moving in and out of the city in that time of war so you can really only kind of vagueliest mate exactly how many people were killed. But almost everyone in the japanese government who studied the issue believes that it was at least 100,000. It could have been more like 150,000 possibly. It is conceivable that in that one nights fire raid, fire bombing raid you had more People Killed than hiroshima and nagasaki combined, at least initially, if you dont count deaths from radiation afterwards. And so the scale of these fire bombing raids was really enormous. I think that was partly the reason that the kind of assumption that we would drop these weapons on cities wasnt challenged by truman or by any of his principal advisers because there was this feeling that we had already taken this step to start essentially attacking japanese Population Centers from the air. Lets hear from mara calling us from salt lake city, good morning. Caller my brother fought in world war ii. Because of that ive always been extremely interested in American History, and specifically world war ii. I watched all the documentaries that ive been able to find. I have Cable Television, i have access to about 40 channels. And now i dont obviously have the education or the i dont know what else to say about these gentlemen youve had on here before but i would like to say that im from kansas city, and ive been to the Truman Library and the eisenhower library. And its my humble opinion, based on these documentaries ive watched, that if we had to invade japan they would have fought us with everything they had, i mean even pitchforks, anything they could put their hands on, tooth and nail. I mean, every step of the way. Okay, mara, and ian toll, how prepared were the japanese for an invasion . Well, how prepared were they . I mean, you know, at that point, you know, japanese strength was kind of down to its last drop but it is true, as the caller says, that the japanese were essentially pouring all of their remaining strength, their military strength in their civilian population, they were preparing to meet the invasion and to fight us, as she says, tooth and nail. You had women and children even being organized into militias, being trained how to fight with bamboo spears, being told to use, you know, kitchen knives if necessary. And so, you know, i think avoiding an invasion of japan was absolutely critical and i think it was so critical that if it was true that, you know, really if you could say the choice was bomb two cities with an atomic bomb or launch a bloody invasion, it was either one of it was one or the other, door a or door b, i think if that was true i think that using the bombs exactly the way we did, that is hitting cities without a prior explicit warning, i do think that you could defend that. The traditional way in which americans have understood the atomic bombings, you know, sets up this kind of forced binary where you have to choose either, you know, hit these cities without warning, or launch an invasion. I dont i personally dont think that thats right. I think that there were many other options other than just those two and i think you can make a pretty good case, although of course as a counterfactual that an invasion would not have been necessary, you know, with or without the atomic bombs, keep in mind that the invasion of kyushu, the first stage of the planned invasion, the target date for that was november 1st. Thats almost three months after the bombing of hiroshima. And so, you know, the idea that the bombs were a last resort, you know, to an invasion that was just about to happen, thats not quite right. But as i say, i mean, you know, veterans of that war had their own very, very strongly held beliefs about what had happened at the end of the war. And as a historian, you know someone whos interviewed, literally hundreds of world war ii veterans, i have never made it a practice to argue with world war ii veterans about this. I present my views but i think its important to recognize, and to honor the feelings, the very strong feelings that veterans have about the subject. Twilight of the gods is your third in a trilogy. Long time, 14 years, i would say. Phil is up, mammoth lakes, california, go ahead. Caller hi, thank you for taking my call. Im 80 years old. My grandfather was in the army air corps, served at Wheeler Field on december 7th, and my fatherinlaw served in the u. S. Navy for three years, and most of that time in the South Pacific. Ironically the ship that he was on, the usspraven eventually was decommissioned and was used as a ship for testing, the atomic tests that were done. I have a lot of feelings on this from a humanitarian point of view, you know, the japanese was defeated in 1944, it was an island country, as were all the islands that the u. S. Army and the marines fought their way up to japan. The fire bombing of the civilians in japan was just, in my opinion, inhumane. The war was over. They were a defeated country. An envisiinvasion was not neede. The bombs were not needed. An island with no navy, no air force, the army was defeated. We could have put an embargo for years if we had to, occupied it for years afterwards. I think it set the stage for the future. I know as a young man in the 50s going through and grammar school, the duck drills for the atomic bomb and the nuclear age and the terror and the rest of it weve all had to live with since then, i think it was unnecessary and it set the stage for the bad things that have happened since and the threat of nuclear war in this world. Okay, phil, and one more thing on that, ian toll, tacking tagging onto that, a question about would a naval blockade have been effective, a question from a viewer in huntington woods, michigan, our previous caller referencing Something Like that. Well, yeah. I mean, really we had a naval blockade in place at the end of the war. We had essentially destroyed japans merchant marine, its oil tankers, you know the background of the pacific war was that, you know, japan is a place that has virtually no Natural Resources at all. It has no oil to speak of. It has some low grade coal. It has very, very little mining minerals. And so, you know, why did japan strike out to seize this enormous empire in asia and the pacific . Well, you know, above all i think it was this desire that their military and regime had to control the resources, oil being the most important. The oil fields they took were in modern day indonesia. Then it was the east indies and borneo and sumatra. Thats 3,000 miles from japan. They had the problem of having to import their oil through this 3,000 mile artery that could very easily be attacked and was attacked by our submarines, by our air power and by really the third month of 1945 we essentially had cut that line completely. So, you know, it is true, absolutely agree with the caller, that the japanese war machine essentially was kind of sputtering to a complete halt by the time that we ended the war with the atomic bombs. And it certainly is, i think you can make a good counterfactual argument that if we didnt have the atomic bombs, whether we decided to use them, say if we didnt have them at all, yeah most likely the japanese would have surrendered by some point in the fall of 1945. So was the was the japanese fleet defeated at that time . Absolutely. And, in fact, the japanese fleet really didnt exist. We had destroyed it. We had sunk all their ships. What little remained of their navy was in japanese harbors. We were attacking those ships at anchor, with our carrier planes. Japanese navy was totally finished by the summer of 1945. You do point out, though so, yes, i do agree. I do agree that a blockade most likely would have forced a japanese surrender. But, you know, how long would that have taken . Thats hard to say. The Japanese Army, which really had control of the country, the rank and file of that army was determined not to surrender. And so, you know, really what youre asking is a political question. In tokyo, how would you have created the conditions for the emperor to be able to say we are going to accept this Unconditional Surrender . And to have that decision stick across the military. You know, as i say, i think you can make a good argument that that would have happened even without the atomic bombs, you know, by the fall of 1945. But thats a counterfactual argument and so as a historian, as a scholar, you have to acknowledge this there is uncertainty there, theres ambiguity. What was going on between the bombing of hiroshima and the announcement of the emperor on august 16th. What took so long . You had turmoil in the capital, as i say. Really the rank and file of the Japanese Army, the elite kind of middle echelon of the officer corps at the imperial headquarters in tokyo and at the Army Ministry were dead set against anything resembling surrender. The idea of letting an Occupying Army, let the enemy send an Occupying Army onto japanese soil without a fight that was an athema to them. You had a deadlock between those who by that time were saying we dont have any choice, the nazis have been defeated, we are alone, we have to surrender and we have to be rational about this and then the mill tarrist fight on faction there was a deadlock within the ruling group. And it took, you know, all of that time to resolve that deadlock. So we had hiroshima on august 6th. We hit nagasaki on august 9th. On august 9th another really important thing happened which is that the russians suddenly declared war on the japanese and rolled their army, their tanks and their enormous numbers of troops from siberia into manchuria. So there was a sudden soviet attack and i think that was the final straw that convinced the ruling group in japan that they had no other choice and it created the conditions where the emperor, who skrenly did not intervene to make decisions, was able to say im making the decision that we surrender and the Japanese Military then accepted that decision. And so it was a you know, it was a difficult process for them to kind of reach that point of consensus that explains that delay. The first decision to surrender on the part of the japanese really came on august 9th. But they responded to our demand for surrender by saying we want to preserve the status of our emperor. And so there was a last round of negotiations between our government and the japanese government in those last five days so that explains part of the delay as well. All right, heres bill in waynesboro, pennsylvania, go ahead. Caller hello, my dad was a medic in okinawa during world war ii. He treated people there who had leprosy. I was proud of what my dad did during world war ii. Im ashamed of what my country did by introducing this terrible weapon to the world. The fact is, there were people in hiroshima and nagasaki who were instantly vaporized when the bomb was dropped. There were people whose flesh was burned off their bones. I read one account that said people walked around silently right after this happened believing that they had died and gone to hell. This is the horror of Nuclear Weapons. Now, if we go to today, our Nuclear Weapons are hundreds of times more powerful than those original bombs. And we could destroy this entire planet very quickly. If we didnt kill all life immediately, everything, everyone would die after the Nuclear Winter from radiation, from the dust cloud that would block out the sun. My i think that could i say one more thing . Sure, go ahead. Caller it may sound crazy to say we should ban Nuclear Weapons but how insane is it to maintain these weapons . And i would like to ask your guest, how do you feel about a worldwide ban pursuing a true ban of Nuclear Weapons as opposed to constantly updating and refining the Nuclear Weapons . Ian toll. Yeah, all right, well just to take that last question, you know, if it was possible to ban all nukes that are in the hands of all governments around the world, and to, you know, decisively deal with the potential problem of a nonstate actor getting access to a nuclear weapon, then absolutely i think it would be in the interest of not just this country but the world to get rid of these weapons. You know, theres a Silver Lining in this conversation which were having which is that we are now, its 75 years today since the first weapon was used against the people of hiroshima. And then three days later, of course, nagasaki. In 75 years we have not had another nuke used in any war, in any conventional war against nisi civilian population, against any military population, we have never seen a nuke used. In 1945, people at the end of the war, americans at the end of the war looking forward i think would have been absolutely surprised that that had been the case. There was very much an assumption that this was a new era of warfare and we were going to see more of these bombs used and of course throughout the cold war, you know, this was a constant terror. We had generations who, you know, grew up having to do these duck and cover drills in classrooms, we came very close during the cold war to nuclear exchange, a number of potential accidents. We had been very fortunate that we havent seen these weapons used again, and so, you know, i think that thats something that we can celebrate today. A couple more calls here, and well go to bea in crowley, texas, good morning. Caller good morning. I just wanted to say that it seems awfully easy for a lot of people to be saying that we shouldnt have done this or we shouldnt have done that. When they werent here. And they werent living through this. But those of us who were were just damn glad when it was all over. I had two uncles who were japanese p. O. W. S, one went through the death march. And we my family just rejoiced when the war was over. People were getting killed regardless. And this just put an end to it for a while, at least. Ian toll, how soon after the bombings did americans know the news . Know the news of that we had dropped the bombs. Dropped one of these weapons . Yes. Well, truman, you play the clip of president trumans newsreel announcement aboard the augusta on august 6th. The same day, in fact just within an hour, i believe, of the bomb being dropped, we had the white house issued a statement explaining that we had this new weapon, and that we had dropped it. Unfortunately, i think, from, you know, looking back with hindsight, you know, we said that we had dropped it on a Japanese Military base which really isnt true. It would be like saying if you dropped a nuke on san diego, it would be like saying we hit an American Naval base. Well theres a city there, theres a big city. If youre going to do that, you ought to be able to say this is what we did. I think that looks better in the long lens of history. But as, you know, the last caller said for americans who were fighting in that war, you know, these abstractions were not important to them. These are abstractions. These are questions that we say, you know, how does it make us look as a country kind of in the long term . What does it do for our legacy . Those are abstract questions. If youre fighting on the ground, if youre a marine, if youre a soldier, if youre a sailor, you expect to be deployed in this final invasion of japan, you know, the issue looks much, much different. At that point youre willing to essentially, for your country, your president to do anything at all to end this war. And end it quickly, and end it without an invasion. And, in addition, it was the brutality of the war. I think in 1945 we should be clear about this, the American People, polling shows this, understood the atomic bombings, in part, as an act of revenge, this was an act of revenge against the japanese for the way that they had treated civilians throughout asia and in particular the way that they had treated our prisoners. And, you know, in the way that the sort of orthodox or traditional defense of the atomic bombings that we hear most often now, that issue of revenge is removed from the equation. Its more, you know, we hit these two cities because the total number of dead would have been lower than an envision aind it was sort of utilitarian reasoning, the greatest good for the greatest number, thats the defense of the bombings, not as an act of revenge. Really, what that feeling, initial feeling we had that this was an act of sort of condine retribution against a bar baric enemy, that only survived the first year or two after the war, once we started getting graphic accounts of what had happened in hiroshima and nagasaki, when John Hersheys article was published in the new yorker. Right. This was a year it have bombings, august 1946, you know then, you know, thats when the American People really began to wrestle with this, and to, you know, to realize this is not how we think about ourselves as a country, we dont we dont take revenge on women and children and cities, thats not who we are. And so then the you know, the explanation changed a bit to, well, we had to do that, it was a horrible thing. It was a terrible tragedy. But we had to do it. Because the alternative would have been even worse. Ian toll, author of twilight of the gods, the third and final volume of his pacific war trilogy, war in the western pacific 19441945. We appreciate you joining us on this 75th anniversary. My pleasure. Our program continues, more of your phone calls ahead. We are joined next, though, by Mary Yamaguchi an Associated Press reporter in japan calling us this morning from hiroshima, who was reporting this morning on the 75th anniversary there in hiroshima, Mary Yamaguchi, good morning. Reporter good morning. I am not in japan, but yes, good morning. What can you tell us about the ceremony that took place today in the peace park, is it, in hiroshima . Reporter yes. It was housed at the memorial park. But this year it has been significantly scaled down because of the coronavirus problem. So there were only about fewer than 1,000 people attended, which is about one tenth of the usual attendance. I understand the mayor of hiroshima spoke. What did we hear from the mayor . Reporter she said that despite the coronavirus scare, that called for World Leaders to sort of cooperate together more than ever. And also he called World Leaders to visit hiroshima to see firsthand the reality of the atomic bombing so that they will be more like lie to abandon Nuclear Weapons. And also he noted that and asked for the japanese government to do more for to take leadership in playing the bridge between Nuclear States and nonNuclear States too so that they will work harder toward the Nuclear Weapons ban. Mari yamaguchi, youve been reporting this week on the survivors, the victims of hiroshima, how they have been stigmatized over the years in japan and here in urgency to bear witness grows for last hiroshima victims, how is japan, the government helping preserve the legacy of those survivors . Reporter rather than the government, i think its citizens groups and pacifist groups are helping working with them more than the government. Although some local governments, including hiroshima, are trying to set up occasions for them to tell their stories, to share with younger people so that they will learn their lessons in their lifetime. There are also projects initiated by hiroshima and systsome other cities to train young people to learn specific survivor stories so that they can continue to tell their stories on their behalf. Associated press reporter Mari Yamaguchi joining us this morning, reporting on the 75th anniversary of hiroshima. Thank you so much. Reporter thank you. Theres more ue ourahead, an hour here on our program of your calls and comments. Dan and up ienext, well continue o discussion on thee anniversary, with Clifton Truman daniel, grandson of former president harry truman. First up, though, here is the former president explaining his decision to use atomic weapons. This video is from outtakes for a Television Series that president truman taped in the early 1960s looking back at the major events of his presidency. When we issued the ultimatum to japan to surrender, the only answer we got was to go to the devil. All this time some of their people seemed to be acting behind the backs of the cabinet trying to sue for peace in one underhand way or another. Well, when they applied that way we knew that there was only one of two things to do. We advance on japan and fight every inch of the way, losing a million of our own men, or drop the atomic bomb. We dropped the bomb. And still there was no reaction. We learned later that the japanese cabinet met and finally there were enough who agreed to surrender, to split the cabinet in half. Onehalf in favor of surrender, the other determined to fight on. In this spirit the emperor was finally called on to give his opinion, an unprecedented move. He didnt want his people to die anymore than he wanted to surrender. Yet the military was so strong they still wouldnt notify us of their capitulation so we had to drop a second bomb on nagasaki. That did it. Ill tell you without those two a bombs dropped on them to show we meant business they might never have surrendered, even though they knew they would be licked but they would have killed 3 million more people on both sides. Thats why there is no question that in view of the whole of the Japanese Military had on their people the dropping of the a tom bombs was the only sensible thing to do. It was the only thing to do. There are a lot of cry babies around who are talking about what ought to have done and the bomb ought to have a demonstration in japan before they killed all those people but i had the authority of the best man in the business, and that is henry l. Stimson, the only operation that the japanese would understand would be one to show them what it was and thats what happened. It stopped the war. I dont care what the cry babies say now because they didnt have to make the decision. And joining us from chicago is Clifton Truman daniel, the grandson of president harry truman, joining us this morning on this 75th anniversary of the bombing of hiroshima. Mr. Daniel, welcome to washington journal. Good morning, thank you. You were 15 years old when your grandfather, when harry truman passed away and youve said in past conversations with us, and elsewhere, that you never had a chance to talk with him directly about the decision to bomb hiroshima and nagasaki. What have you what have you come to in terms of his decision, whats your view of the decision to drop those bombs, why do you think your grandfather made that decision . My grandfather always said that he made the decision to end the war and save american and japanese lives. And i understand that thats a simplistic answer but that was something that he stuck to all of his life. For me, ive been listening a little bit to the previous program, the previous guests, its it is still, today, a complicated issue as to whether that was the right decision or wrong decision, whether it ended the war, whether it didnt, whether a blockade would have done the same thing, whether or not we would have had to invade. For me, working with survivors, working with the Truman Library, for me its more important to listen to to listen to the stories, to understand why it happened, why the decision was made. So that we dont do it again. And more broadly, so that we can avoid future conflict, i think, if we look at all the reasons that we got to where we got in 1945. Well have a better understanding of how to head it off again, although sometimes i dont have much hope for that. What sort of what sort of resources have you used in your quest to figure out that decision . Where are you looking for, for information on your grandfathers decision . Just reading broadly. Biographies of my grandfather, his own memoirs, writing, books that he wrote after the presidency. So from his point of view. But also on the other side, talking to survivors, working with survivors of hiroshima and nagasaki, listening to the stories, trying to understand the Japanese Point of view. Just generally whatever whatever comes my way, whatevers new, whatever whatever i think i might be able to get some more understanding from. You were well along in your in your career and profession, a life of a parent, when in 2012 you were the the hiroshima, as part of a visit here, the program that we aired with cspan back in 2012. What prompted your decision to go to hiroshima. I will try to shorten it. When my son wesley was 10 years old he came home with a book. For those in the audience that dont know the story, she was a real little girl that survived the bombing of hiroshima. Her and her family survived they lost their grandmother in the attack. She went on to develop radiation induced leukemia nine years later. In the hospital she followed a japanese tradition that if you fold 1,000 origami paper cranes. She folded 1,000, but she sadly died of lou cheeukemia at age 1. There is a monument of her in ha peace park today. The teacher did not just give them the book, they taught Japanese Culture and history and took them to a japanese restaurant. They folded cranes in class. They had a tea ceremony. I found wesley in the living room wearing a kimono with green tee and sushi laid out on the coffee able tugffee table. On the subsequent anniversaries of the bombings, when the japanese called, i mentioned that story. I mentioned we red sadakos story together. I thought it was important for him to understand his great grandfath grandfathers decision. What it cost the people of nagasaki. He said he remembered as a child enjoying the book. He said it was different from his other books in that it it not have a happy ending. I think in 2005 i had a call from japan from sadakos older brother, himself a survivor of the bombing. He read the japanese journalist accounts that they had done with me. He asked fe if we could meet so day and work together. I said yes. It took five more years. We didnt meet until 2010 in new york city. He and his son were visiting the 9 11 Tribute Center to donate one of sadakos last original cranes as a gesture of healing. In that interview, he took a tiny crane from a plastic box and he dropped it into my palm. He told me that was the last crane that sadako folded before she died. At that point they asked me if i would consider visiting hiroshima and nagasaki and going to the ceremonies, and i agreed. Were showing video from that 2012 visit. Video that we had as part of a program with you in that year in 2012. Were going to get to more to that. We want to make sure folks know that our phone lines are open. For those of you in the east and central time zones. For those that are world war ii veterans or families, 2027408000. During that trip you spoke to several survivors. I wanted to play the video shot by your son, am i right . Your son shot some of this video. I want to show the conversation, one of the survivors telling his story and then well get back to your comments. Translator i removed the rubble by digging around the area and i managed to remove a felled tree. But in the front, the concrete foundation of our house was covered with a big pillar. I could not go forward. And mother was lying face up about a meter away and her eyes were bleeding. I could not make it to her side, so i asked her ask you move, and she said no, unless you can remove this stuff from my shoulder, i cant move. But i couldnt. I was a materialistic boy and i knew that japan was cornered and going to lose soon. So i was always dreaming, every day, that i would get on a plane and throw myself directly on to the u. S. Battleships. I never imagined such a horrible thing would happen to me. I had say to my mother that the fire is spreading so feast thasi cant help you. My mother said get away from here quick. I said go visit my father. I will follow you shortly. So i went away from the scene leaving my mother knowing that she was going to die in the fire. Clifton truman daniel, how did those stories and your 2012 trip change your perspective on the bombing of hiroshima. Obviously i think your viewers will also agree that those are hard to listen to. We listened to, and they call it testimonies. Survivors give testimony. My family and i listened to more than two dozen on that trip in 2012. As hard as it is for me to listen to, you have to remember, and i have to remember, that it is much harder for the survivors themselves to relive it. And they do day after day after day. They tell those stories and theyre qucommitted to doing th again so we understand the horror of the Nuclear Attack and prevent it. Dont do it again. I was struck by the survivors, by that kindness. Not one of them came to me in anger or recrimination. They simply wanted to tell me the stories and ask me to help keep telling the stories in the aim of peace. Those survivors are now eight years older, what do you see as your role, as those survivors die, pass away, what do you see as your roll in telling the hiroshima story. To keep telling the stories. Openly and honestly telling the stories on both sides. Telling the human story of world war ii and the atomic bombings. The decision, the effects, the reasons. To keep being open and keep telling those in the name of honesty and accurate history. Did it feel uncomfortable for you to be in the room knowing that decision was made by your grandfather . No. And i will credit the survivors for that. Survivors and their family who were my hosts and companions through that. No, the atmosphere was respecti respectirespect respectful. Open, factual, and blunt, but respectful. I was not uncomfortable in that regard at all. We have plenty of calls waiting. Our guest Clifton Truman. Our line for those that are world war ii vets, good morning. Yes, good morning. I landed on okinawa when i was an 18yearold boy and at that time, what do you call it, they had about 1,000 landing rafts, they will be used, to invade japan. They had over 2500 planes waiting. That was on the invasion of japan. He said it would be november first. We had a tremendous typhoon. And i said what would it have done to the invision. He said it would have enes tried the invasion. He said i know the winds were over 1500 miles per hour. And there was no way that the invading fleet would sir reive. And he said he sent him to japan. He said the drupgs was unbelievable. But what they had waiting for us was an unbelievable today. He said they had fun marines. They a had all kinds of fortifications. The civilians were all armed to their teeth waiting for the americans to invade. William, thank you for your call, mr. Daniel . That is i have heard similar stories. Im not familiar with the typhoon, but i have heard that from survivors. That they were, some of them that feel that japan was defeated. And it was just weeks, months, or days before they renders surrendered. There would be groups of civilians that would be attached to groups of soldiers. So they raze nate with me. At the same time they were terrifies. They tran for it the japanese government was telling them they would all fall like the petals of a cherry street. And it would be a glorious mass suicide. That is in line with the stories that i heard in japan. Good morning. Im an immigrant and im a student of American History. For me i want to find out more about the country. And im so how would your guest answer the question. The events that took place in february for 1945 when british Prime Minister winston chur churchill, Joseph Stalin decided that they would enter the car against japan. And so at that time when the bomb was dropped, the soviet union basically was basically took so much that japan occupied it, and it was basically about to enter hokido. The soviets, right . The soviet army was about to enter hokido at that time when the bomb was dropped. So was it really necessary . Because the soviet army would occupy japan. They were moving very fast and japan, indeed, they were fighting fiercely, but at that time the soviet army was huge. They were moving very, very fast. So they were right there. What do the survivors that you have talked to tell you that the state of the populous at that time. What were they like . Were they prepared for a potential invasion be it soviet or america . They were prepared. They were preparing for the invasion. Drilling with the bamboo spears and army units. At the same time, they were saying this in the previous segment. They had very little left in terms of just the civilians had a little left. One of the survivors, the first survivor that i ever heard a full story from, he gave the acceptance speech. When they won the noble prize for peace, they gave an acceptance speech. She was a 13yearold schoolgirl. She and 29 classmates were in an Army Building in hiroshima. They have schoolgirls running in advance of the invasion. You had them preparing for an invasion, gearing up to fight american soldiers, but they were doing it with whatever they had at hand. How did japanese generally view the post War Occupation by the u. S. . One of the stories that comes to mind that after the bombings they recorded their stories by writing it down. They wrote their experiences down. They drew pictures. There was a lot of japanese that drew pictures of what they had seen and been through. The occupation government con if i casedonfiscated a lot of that because it was inflammatory. They would make it harder to occupy japan. Make it harder to rebuild. So there is resentment over that and resentiment over the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission hospitals set up following the war to study radiation victims. They could not treat they didnt know how, they studied. So on the one hand that was helpful to a general understanding not only to the patients understanding of their disease, but the world understanding of radiation poisoning. Who was running that at the hospitals . That was us, yeah. Lets hear from our next caller in washington dc. Caller yes, i wanted to bring up two important facts. Im just visiting from japan. First of all most people seem to be unaware that when the u. S. Bombed, they would drop leaf lets,leta leaflets, 70 million were dropped saying we dont want to harm you. And would warn people to leave the areas they would bomb the next day. Over 70 million were dropped. Second, when you speak to, when youre in japan, they will never tell you this. Especially the older people. I heard from over 100 of them. They will tell you that when they heard the news of the bombing of hiroshima they danced in the streets. I will give you a quote, because that meant the world would be over. The leader of the pearl harbor attack met in 1959 with paul tibbetts. And he said you did the right thing. The japanese attitude at that time was fanatic. Every man, woman, and child would have resisted the invasion with sticks and stones. Finally it is very important that this narrative has developed but when you speak to the people that were adults and remember, they will all said when they saw the american bombers flying overhead, and then when they heard about the bom bomb they were so happy. They knew if the war came on land at that time, about three Million People would have died. So it was terrible. The interesting thing is i was in baghdad before the war and it was the exact same situation. The people were so desperate. They said let the americans come. We would rather have them bomb us. Some of lus will die but well e free. Over 70 million leaflets were distributed. They are just amazing. They say the world is with you. Japanese people hang on. Everything will be okay. We are very sorry, but the only thing we can do is bomb. So they instructed people to leave the areas of the bombings. Well let you go there so we can get a response from our guest. Thank you, yes, those are familiar to me. I also think of, it makes me think of another story told. She listened to the emperors broadcast surrendering on august 15th. They set up speaker on a tree. Th she remembers the people gathering around, they had gone into the hills to escape the city by this time. She remembers people weaping and crying out, stunned. Both i think as you said both in relief, but also stunned that japan would surrender. Just as an aside, surprised to hear the emperors voice. I think that was the first time he had ever it was certainly the first time that all of them in the circle around the speaker had heard the emperor speak. He didnt often address the japanese people directly. Just want to show our viewers some information on the warning leaflets, too. If you look at the atomic heritage association, the le leaflets and how they were used. Next up a caller on our line for vets and families. Caller good morning. My take on this is quite dprirc different from what you heard. I was boring in 1943 and my dad, at that time until he retired was the Administrative Assistant two the admiral in Southern California at a submarine base. The submarines at that time in the war were very important. My uncle lived in eureka, california. We were in virginallejo. He was having trouble with his employer so my dad asked if he would come live in the basement and work at the shipyard. He did the lettering on the doors to all of the offices and stuff like that. Like today to have all of that final lettering and stuff. As i was growing up, like i said, born in 43. As i was growing up my uncle lived in the basement and my parents were always gone on weekends and he was like a built in babysit. He was stone sober monday to thursday, and saturday to sunday he was drunk as a skunk. I thought that was just the way he was. But he was suffering from what we now call posttraumatic stress disorder. And what would happen as i got older, he started going into the war, talking about the army. And one time he scared the living daylights out of me and i will never forget it. Went downstairs, he broke out his gun, his rifle, and then he reached in this private area he had and he brought out a bayonet. He put it on i didnt know what it was, he strapped it on the end of that gun, and started telling me how he was killing japs. Thats what he called them. Japs. And he was mean. He got furious. And then he settled down because i guess he realized i was just a little kid, and he put it all away and he apologized. And he never did it again but he would talk about it every time he was drunk. My perspective on the whole thing is that my uncle didnt want to kill anybody. He was the nicest person you could have ever met in your life. Okay, william in california. Thank you. Your response . Thank you. That, i think of listening to you talk about your uncle i think of Fred Mitchell who lived in pennsylvania. Im sorry to say i dont know if he is with us any longer. He fought in the pacific. He was like your uncle. He never wanted to kill anything. Growing up on a farm, he had trouble, he could not shoot deer when he went hunting with his father. He couldnt do it. He didnt like to kill anything. Wound up fighting in the war in the pacific. I think he was a Radio Operator on a destroyer. And two kamakazi planes hit his destroyer. When the second plane hit the entire battery where he was stationed was destroyed. And he lost most of his friends. He wound up in the water for hours, gasoline learning water and oil he was traumatized and he came back and had ptsd and he was treated for it. For decades afterwards hated the japanese. Just kept that hatred. It got so bad that his wife and parents didnt know what to do. They were religious, but he could not shake this. And they were worried about him. If he saw someone that even looked as though they were of asian decent, it didnt matter chinese, cr korean, he got angr. He watched a Television Program about marines that fought on okinawa and a group of former kamakazi trainees. They met and talked and put it behind them. Through one thing or another he ended up doing something similar. He met with former kamakazi trainees. He said we were all a bunch of old men, and finally, and he was in the 70s, he was finally able to put that away. Have you ever spoken to former crew members of the planes that dropped the bombs. Well go to new mexico, now, good morning. Caller im with the navajo nation. I want to say a little peace here regarding the warriors in the south specific. The late Harold Costner senior, my father, served in the gilbert islands. Iwo jima. But they were formed and they were informed that there would be they heard that term fat cat and little big boy that the navajos were at the South Pacific company. And they were told they would be that something would happen in the wind. That was their message they sent out. And after all of the events, the bombing that happened, the bulk of the forces were broken down and some of the navajo coat talkers were sent into the hiroshima to confiscate weapons, streets, distributing food and clothing. That was their role and that message that they sent after after the occupation there back to San Francisco through the na navajo code. So we dont know who sent that code, but that is part of history, what was said. How many buildings were destroyed. How much vegetation was left. How many people were deceased on impact, and what was going on. So thank you. Maybe you can Say Something about the American Indians and their role in the post occupation of japan. Okay, thank you. Thanks, larry. I dont know the history of native americans in the navajos, but i know someone that was there with the code talkers. Its the lateorville ondall. Nagasaki is a steep river valley there. There is steep hills all around the port, and they were going to rain shells down on orville, his men, and the other members of the invasion vorforce. He was very worried they would not make it through that initial assault. The bombs were dropped, the war ended, and or vville was reliev they didnt land at nagasaki. They went weeks later anyway and orville was heart sick at the destruction. He said the hillsides were just bare. Nothing standing. No trees, no buildings. The u. S. Army had disarmed the japanese officers. Taken their weapons, taken their swords. And there was a huge pile of swords, ceremonial swords in a warehouse up the coast from nagasaki. And all of the other men were urged to take them as souvenirs otherwise the u. S. Would have to destroy them. Orville didnt believe in that but he chose a nice sword and he sent it home. Over the years afterwards he didnt put it over his mantle. He didnt take it out and show it off to people. He kept it in the closet. Had a devil of a time keeping his children and grandchildren away from it. But over the years he kept it clean. He oiled it, he kept the blade clean, and he took care of it. And after 67 years he wondered who it had belonged to, should he give it back, and he tried on and off over the years to see if he could not find the owner or the owners family. And he never had any success. Finally after he retired, 67 years after the war, through the st. Paul minnesota nagasaki, japan sister city, they translated the wooden tag. The tags were usually silk and they would rot away. Through sheer luck and a lot of phone calls, they found the son of the owner of the sword. The officer who had to give it up. He is, i dont know if he is retired now, he was a japanese newspaper and they wrote him and said they wanted to give him back his sword. So he came to receive the sword back from orville. The ceremony was packed and it was very emotional for everyone around. There was a writer in minnesota who helped arrange this. She writes about survivors and she helped arrange this. I called her two weeks after the ceremony and she said i cant get any work done because i keep getting phone calls from people wanting to return swords and flags. Lets get to joe in wilmington, north carolina. Im a son of a world war ii veteran that was landed at annville and worked up to czechoslovakia. And seeing the nazi using the Young Children at the old people at the end, which killed a lot of americans too. He was part of the european element of young soldiers. At that time he was about a 21yearold staff sergeant. And they went down to naples where they were building a fleet of troop ships and they kept them on board three nights and three days and then released them. They said there was a great bomb that had been dropped on japan. And so i certainly may not have been born, i served 30 years in the military, and i have talked to a lot of p. O. W. S. And that have survived different battles. And when i was stationed in new mexico i met a couple of the navajo code talkers, which more showing should talk about that element as well, very interesting. But the fact that if there was no pearl harbor there would be no issue. But force informs china. Thank you, joe. You can find plenty of information about that, just search navajo code talkers. Our guests are with us talking about the 75th anniversary of the bombings of hiroshima. August 6th, nrkts agasaki on au 9th. You wrote a couple books about your grandparents. Dear harry, love bess. It you ever ask your grandmother about the bombing of hiroshima . I did not, and again going back to whether or not i asked my grandfather or my grandmother. They were gammy and grand pa. We saw them on vacations from school. I wasnt looking for another history lesson. I didnt ask my grandmother about the bombings. That said i dont think my grandfather or grandmother would have told me anything differently than they would have told you or anyone in the audience. My grandfather was remarkably open and consistent in his views. And there is nothing that we would not that the public would not know. Let me go back to say to joe in wilmington. It was nice to hear from someone from wilmington. It was in wilmington at the end of a day full of ceremonies marking the 50th anniversary marking the end of the war that i first met pacific war veterans that were trying to get ahold of my mother, margaret truman. As we left an event they were trying to snag her sleeve and talk to her. They didnt get her, she got pulled away, but my wife and i stayed behind and asked if there was something we could do for them. They both had tears in their eyes. We asked them what is wrong and they said nothing, nothing, we just wanted to thank her, if her father had not dropped that bomb we would not be here. And you were very vocal encouraging president obama to vit japan in 20visit japan in 2. Dan karlson, a historian, he said the atomic bomb iings weren atrocity, but it was the lost of a war full of atrocitieatrociti. So if were going to learn from this you have to keep talking about it and oh be open and honest about it . I thought that president obama did the right thing. He went and listened. He laid a wreath, he visited the peace park. One of the survivor thats, i believe he gave a hug to mori, and he was a survivor of the bombing but spent about 25 years of his life and a lot of his own manage finding out what happened to the 12 americans. They were prisoners and airmen. A mixed group, prisoners in basement sells in the military Police Headquarters downtown. Nine of them died immediately from the explosion, but three survived. Poisoned by radiation. But not much was known about what happened to them. And their families back here in the states didnt know. And mr. Mori discovered that a lot of people he was interviewing for other survivors and stories were drawing pictures of americans in hiroshima. So he was able to find out what happened to the men to let their families know in this country and to memorialize them. About ten more minutes left with our guests. Well get to your calls, go back to our calls, vineland, new jersey. Caller good morning, i would like to tell you that my father and seven of my uncles were in world war ii. They fought from europe all of the way through to the pacific and all of this. In fact my father was at normandy, fought in the butt ba of the bulge. He walked into a concentration camp in germany, he said even though he fought in two of the worst battle he never realized how badly a human could treat another human until he walked into that concentration camp. I would like to put the bombs in perspective. What the atomic bombs dropped on japan did was it ended a war. It was an estimated 70 to 85 Million People that were killed during that war. And those atomic bombs put an end to it. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, again, the debate goes on. I find myself, i think as i said earlier, in the middle of this. I cannot, will not, tell a pacific war veteran that those bombs were not a good idea. They had been through so much already. And they fought for their country and they endured a lot. I also cant tell a survivor of hiroshima that the bombs were a great idea. They, too, suffered. And it is that is what i try to look at. The human suffering. And you know the sacrifice on both sides. You have to look at the human stories and you have to understand why that happened and what it means. Caller hello, i want to tell another side. My father was an air corps man in new guinea. I wont say anything nebrasgatif the japanese today. He was in three groups, and he was the only person left in the three groups. He never talked about the war at all. He used to get up in the middle of the night and have his arms around her neck. He was only good jap was a dead gap. He died at 56 years old because of it. Had they not dropped the bombs we would still be in war. We were not fighting. My father died in 76. The last year of his life he talked to me constantly about the war, this was protecting their god. This wasnt, you know, protecting their president , protecting their country, this was protecting their gods. If we had not dropped those bombs we would still be in war today. Unfortunately. But my father died with severe posttraumatic stress disorder. Having a nervous break down and died at 56 because of all of this. Okay, carol, well get a response. Thank you, carol. You have to i know you just said it yourself. You do separate the japanese of today from i think you also have to separate the japanese of 1945 from the war. There were those that were all for fighting until the last man, committing suicide, going down fighting, and there was others that just wanted toly their lives and have peat, just wanted the wash to be over. I did a story with a woman who was 12 years old when it happen happened when the time for questions came around the student said im chinese, what about what you want sympathy, you want understanding for the bombings, what about what Japanese Military did to my people. And she said very quietly that we had no idea. We did not know what was going on. But you have a broad range of emotion from both sides. Survivors marking the 75th anniversary of the worlds first atomic attack. What was your initial reaction in going into that peace park, and how was your visit received by the media and the public . My reaction, my the initial reaction in both hiroshima and nagasaki stuck. It should not have been a surprise to me, but it was. It was both scities, both peace parks, are like being in a church, a synagogue, or a mosque. It is Hallowed Ground. There are ashes that are three feet down in the soil. A white later of bone and ash in the soil. On Hallowed Ground and you feel it. And the survivors contribute to that through their kindness. So there is a feeling in hiroshima and nagasaki. A feeling of peace. Both cities are dedicated to peace. That is my initial reaction and that is what stuck. Overall my reaction to the visit was positive. It was positive before we went. A couple japanese journalists came to chicago and wrote positive articles about the visit. The media was respectful, the overall positive the one hitch and i should have been expecting it, but i wasnt. I got a question from the first interview that i did in tokyo. The reporter got two questions in and then say have you come to apologize . I was caught off guard. It caught me flat footed, and i said no. This is about honoring the dead and listening to the living. She came rephrasing it, if you didnt come to apologize then why bother. My translater, my guide and translator was half out of her chair, she was getting ready to intervene because it was ruse. I worried about that question all that afternoon at an event at Tokyo University all of the way to hiroshima on the train. All that night i thought am i just going to end up defending the apology question. And he came out of the middle of the tlonk. I had not seen him. He put his arms around me and hugged me. Most of my worries evacrated at that point. He was reassuring me, showing me and the japanese media and the people that we were in this together. Okay, over to bonn knee n now bonnie now. I had two uncles. Every time they tried to get out of the pit the japanese would kick them in the face and new york them back down. When they came home they would never talk about it. My moms first husband helped drop the bombs, and he said i dont ever want to see that again. You dont want to ever see it in your lifetime, he said it was a very, very nasty look. Thats all i got to say. Thank you bonnie. Yeah, there is again, the last atrocity in a war full of acrossties. Let me ask you from this point out what you have been doing, staying in contact with some of the victims, survivors, and theyre families. It does not, not as intensely as it did at first. The japanese were for a bomb affected person. They brought these survivors to speak to more than 60,000 high school students, and i worked with hem doing exactly that. One of the founders, they would get up and talk about the Current Nuclear arsenal. More of them more powerful than the bombs. Talk about how theyre on hair trigger alerts. And now our government, the soviet, and the russians are talking about modernizing the nuclear arsenal. We feel like were on the eng of another arms race. At the same time you have countries working against noouk lar proliferation. I think more than 120 countries have signed a treaty. I would introduce the survivor and he or he is would tell their story about the day of the bombing, and students were very resiptive to that. They slouch in their chairs and look at their phones. None of that was going on here. Afterwards they wanted selfies. They want today talk to the survivors further. They wanted hugs and they got them. It was very effectual and effective program. Lets go to cameron in missouri. I just want to say could you do us a favor and take your phone off of speaker . It is hard to hear you. Go ahead. I apologize. Is that better . He has done for years in the past, and without war we cannot find haes and recently, we have been come pining this virus, and looking back at our history maybe there is a time coming where we dont have to fight war any more. Where we can just come to peace and live in that peace and flif that state of haes and not have to go back to fighting any wars. I think we would all be better off and we would not have to worry about what country will nuke what country. Its all nonsense. Just a big chaotic mess. If we continue to fight well just hurt each other or damage our neighbors. Okay, if you can hold your thought for a minute. I want to see if we can get one more call from hawaii. This is sachicho. It is worth it. I have been up from 3 00 or 2 30 in the morning trying to see this program. Im so happy to meet with you, the grandson of truman. And i am a post par 1946 birth. And i just happened, two days ago, from nagasaki, a professional photographer that just passed away at the age of 96. He was also a survivor from the nagasaki bomb. He and my father were very, very good friends. My father is also passed away several years ago. Anyway, it must have been a coincidence, but i really wanted to see this program. Today we live in 2020. It is the ai. Artificial intelligence era, and we have internet. What we need to know, out of all of this tragic humans killing each other and war, we should put an end to it. What we have to do is learn to appreciate and study languages. If you can only krukt with each other to the deep understanding language, the culture understandings. Japanese people have a long history from 2,000 years we went through the samurai era, modernization era, and every time we have all of this change really, appreciate you waiting on the line and calling in early there in hawaii. Well get some last thoughts from our guest. Thank you, thank you. Thank you both callers. I know is nevada, missouri. I have been there. For both of you the story that brings to mind is a story from hiroshima. Some had survived in caves. One woman lost her whole family, she was homeless, lived under a bridge, she was sick. Her sister was so sick she committed suicide. She went think a lot. She speaks out in the name of peace and disarmament, but it summed up what they were saying about war. She said i think peace welcome the basic idea of waes b wipeac is to have an understanding of someone elses pain. Thank you for spending some time with us. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, i appreciate the opportunity. Watch American History tv in prime time on veterans day at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Patrick odonnell in his book the unknowns. The most decorated heros that brought him home. Then two real america films. The film africanamericans in world war ii. And at 11 20 p. M. Eastern, the 1945 film the army nurse. Watch American History tv veterans day, tonight, starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan 3. Youre watching American History tv every weekend on cspan three explore our nations past. Created by americans Cable Television companies. Brought to you by your television provider. Japan formally surrendered on september 2nd on the uss missouri. They signed documents to bring world war ii to a close. The uss missouri is now a memorial and a museum. Up next, the 75th Anniversary Ceremony aboard the ship