Transcripts For CSPAN3 Dogfight Over Tokyo 20240711

Dogfight over tokyo, its a great book, he is an author of many books, john wukovits, it came to us about ten years ago. We are just talking about this. He visited the museum, gave a presentation on this book, and we have not managed to get him back. Here we tried, and he was going to come in april of this year. But things got a little out of hand, and we had to postpone that event indefinitely to talk on one of his other books. Im sure most of our viewers today know many of johns books. Hell from the heroes from the heavens for crew and country, and 10 10 titans, which one Samuel Elliott morrison naval literature award that year it came out, probably the most prestigious award that was awarded, regarding nipple history. Congratulations on that, many years bladed. As i mentioned, john was supposed to come here in april and thankfully weve been able to work with our colleagues in the Distance Learning team, chrissy and kate, to bring these programs to you all. This one, specifically, has to do with our theme of the end of the war, the 75th anniversary of the end of the war. We will get right to it so we can get as many of the audience questions asked and answered by john. I will start off with a handful of my own questions. John, lets give the audience a brief summary for those who have not yet read the book. Give them a brief summary of dogfight over tokyo, please. Dogfight over tokyo explains the story of the last four americans to die in war combat in world war ii. And that, i dont mean to say they were the last four men today. Ever. This is in combat. We had thousands, obviously, a veterans who, through the decades have passed away from injuries and wounds the received during the war. These were the last four to be in a combat action, and then die. So, i tell, with the story of those four, i also interweave with that the story of the air group, of which they were apart. A group 88, and you and i will explain it a little bit more later. Their activities in the final two months of the war. The book shows how a bunch of young aviators, you know, hot stuff, arrogant, they are bragging, ready to go to war, eager to get over there, and they really wear because they wanted to match their flying skills against japanese pilots. It shows the gradual transformation of that attitude towards more of, say, i dont want to be here, kind of feeling. I take the reader from training and United States to who i. E. And cyan, after that they joined the carrier york town, and operate of the coast of japan and a couple months of the war. Thats where the book is about. Great. Whats brought you to this book . Why did you decide to write it, when needed, and what resources were out there . Why did you use . I first came across this idea maybe 12 years ago, when i was researching for a biography of admiral halsey, that came out in 2010. In there, coliseum engines in his autobiography that on the final day of war, some pilots were killed. He said, they should never be forgotten. And that struck me. I put that idea, i filed it away, i had other projects coming up, and finally, a few years, back i turn to it and thought, well, its an interesting idea, if i can find out enough material to flush out these four aviators. They did not survive the war, so what about family . Fortunately, i thought to myself, if i can find two of the four, and get enough information on that, it will work. And i did. I found plenty of information from two of the four families. So, that enabled me to flesh out those two, plus other material on the third and fourth aviator as well. I picked up from coca mo, the hobbes family, and billy hobbes diary and flight logs, photographs, letters, all kinds of things. I interviewed his sister, nancy, who just communicated with her a couple days ago, she is in mid 90s, going strong. The other family, we have a picture there of dwight billy hobbs. He was a guy who loved aviation. His sister nancy said that clearly was born to fly. As a, kid he made those planes out of wood. Germany, that might be before your time, but i use a lot of playing with those things. Hed make aircraft out of anything. A nearby airfield, he would run out to watch the planes land, especially when barnstormers were coming through town an indiana. He always, everything about him, was i want to fly, i love the excitement, thrill. That was what billy hobbs was all about. I contacted the. Mandeberg. There is a picture of Eugene Mandeberg, he was the opposite of a billy. The luis action, had a good time dating girls, and things like that. Eugene, he was someone who, you know, you called eugene. You didnt say, hey, jeanne, come over here. It was eugene. It was serious, studious, he loved reading books, he wanted to be a, writer and in fact was. He wrote some columns for the Michigan Daily newspaper, which was on the camp in the an arbor intercity of michigan. He had a sharp wet, but not to the kind that said, hey, i have a great story to tell you, and to joke about. It was, watch, and comment on what people were doing, or how they said something, and things like that. It is stories were all about social ills of the time. He wrote a short story about a lynching in georgia, the evils of that. Another story about a young soldier who went off to training camp, and came home with a sharpshooter medal, it was bragging to his mom, and she was worried. He said, mom, dont worry, we are shooting at targets. She said, my gosh, she doesnt understand hes about to get into. Eugene was the serious one, or us billy wanted to get into fighters, Fighter Aircraft specifically, to match his skills with the japanese pilot and aerial combat. Eugene got into fighters because he did not want to fly a torpedo plane or die bomber where he had two or three minutes, whichever played we are talking about. He said, i dont want to be responsible for anyone else is death in the air. So, i will fly a fighter. Then, you had the third one, which was joe sahloff, who was from new york. Joe was one of those khaki aviators. He watched cruz and the top gun kind of thing, and the way the actress kind of how he was. He always had a cigar, it seemed, of course that picture does not have a cigar, but he was known for that. At a party, in the United States, just before they were going to go over to the pacific, joe sahloff, he was the one man for the squadron commander, richard. He told his wife, i promise you, i will bring him back home safely. That didnt turn out in one of the auctions, their plans. Not completely into each other. He went spinning to his death. The fourth one, howdy harrison was a veteran aviator. They had seen some action in the pacific, and he was a father of a couple children. Howdy, in that picture, is in the middle being held up and celebratory fashion by his buddies of war in york town. He had been the subject of a fascinating rescue at sea, while they were off the coast of japan. He had landed his plane in the sea of japan, and a catalina in the aircraft. Flew across through thick overcast, it was horrible conditions but they succeeded in rescuing him right from under the noses of the japanese defenses, the way the newspapers described it. He had two children, one he had never steam because a child was born after he went to the pacific. Those were the for aviators. The book focuses on the first two, billy hobbs and Eugene Mandeberg. It was interesting, when they were in training, Eugene Mandeberg met a girl in new york city, sonia levine, and they fell in love, and planned to be married once he returned. So, thats a prominent feature of the book. They did not get married, but it turned out that sonia was still alive, and is today, in new york city. So, i was able to interview sonia about her recollections of her love from somebody five years ago. One of the things about the book that really drew me in, is clear, what we do here at the museum. Sharing personal stories. By using those personal, accounts and the fact that we do have the fortune of being around those who are living during that time. John, you mentioned theyre operating off the coast of japan. When we think of the air war over japan, i think nine out of nine people would probably think of the b29 greats. Tell us a bit about the operations. What was the purpose, how closely are they getting. Tell us about the operations beyond b29 heavy bombers . These were quite different, obviously. The smaller aircraft fighters, torpedo planes, dive bombers, they had, under admiral halsey, on the third fleet, stationed off the coast of japan, and since it was a Fast Carrier Task force, they could attack one installation factory, shipyard in japan. A couple days later, be two or 300 miles away. Their purpose before the atom bombs were dropped, was to hit these targets, these military installations, our remit factory, etc. To prepare the way for the schedule november invasion of japan and the south which was supposed to be a massive operation, so their purpose was eliminated as many as those military targets as possible, after that adam bombs were dropped it changed and instead of hitting those targets, to prepare for the eventual invasion, they are going to hit those targets to prod the japanese people to the peace table. Hit them hard. They said, just keep hitting them hard, everything we have. Even the last day of the war. Do you think we have left now if left over for one more strike. He was under orders to do that. As who halsey had some ulterior motives, i dont know if you want me to get into that now or later. Yes well do that later, we talked about the decision to launch the mission. Well do that later . Yeah. Air group 80 eights off the coast of japan, their normal operation for each strike or each mission they, they would have a morning in an afternoon strike, it would entail three parts. There would be to sweeps by Fighter Aircrafts of the targets area. You are looking at antiaircraft areas that will clear the way. And thats woo that priebus used to follow. You would have one of those in the morning, followed by the dive bombers and torpedo bombers. Then they would have another one in the afternoon. And they had 12 of those in little more than a month at their off the coast of japan. The missions they were running, just for our non pacific historians, but the more european audience members watching us today, reminded me a lot of that predday innovations. The missions that the u. S. Air force was launching, that ninth air force an eight air force to blow bridges and Communication Centers and soften up the landing ground. That is a great comparison. So they were on the york county, tell us, they had a lot of time in between missions, a lot of time to ship out from the United States, tell us about what that was like, the crew members for the york town. As a said they had the 12th strike, 12 mission days and they were they were there for say five weeks. There was time the carrier was moving into position. Aboard an aircraft carrier, you pretty much have two crews. You have the Ships Company of about 2700 officers and enlisted. The Ships Company, their task was to take care of the carrier and get it ready to launch aircraft. Nothing more than that. They existed for the air group. The air group was a separate crew of about 300 aviators divided into four squadrons, a fire squad when, a torpedo plane, and what was called a bombing and fighting squadron, aircraft. There was a separate section aboard the character. The york towns Ships Company would stay with the york talon for the duration. Air groups were rewarded on the care then they were rotated out so they could teach what they do to the training aviators and be incorporated into other squadrons because they wanted some experienced flyers in their. In their off time, they were generally in the ready room. There are four ready rooms, one for each of the four squadrons. Those ready rooms, i was at the york town and it is floating and burst off of patriots point in south carolina, theyre not as large as we might think, they are cluttered but they spent all their time there. Thats where they would go to get all their final information before emission and in the meantime they would be they playing cards or smoking or teasing one another. Whatever the case may be. The aviators that i interviewed, they said that was are pretty much our home base, the ready room. We had ours and then the dive bombers had theres an etc etc. So it was pretty much it. A routine need for the times they were off the coast of japan him. A few hours of intense the full activity interspersed with many hours of hey, lets fill the time with whatever we can. The timeline i think is important, in most popular memory you have august 6th as the hiroshima bombing in august 9th as of nagasaki bombing. Of course that led to the japanese decision to surrender. But there is this week plus lull in between them where bombs dropped and actual emperors messages broadcast. I think that gets us to the august 15th mission. Can you give us a little background on that mission specifically, as you said they were continuing to deliver their pail odds on the japanese because they had not surrendered, talk a little bit about that window and i will ask followup question we vanish. Sure, first of all the missions, there is a nice map of the final flight. Their missions, when they first arrived were against general targets that they wanted to soften up for the invasion. After the atom bombs, the flyers, everybody, the Ships Company as well, they just wanted to get out of their. The war is practically over, lets not keep this up. Why do we need to attack an airfield when an atom bomb just wiped out two cities . So they couldnt understand the necessity for keeping this where people would go out and face these antiaircraft and you have to try to understand what it is like to fly into that. We theyre shooting straight up, and you are diving down and you cant weave to avoid the fire because the planes have to lock in on their targets. So as one aviator told me, there is no skill to it, its just luck. Pure luck. We hated every minute of it. These guys did not want to sacrifice their lives when the war was going to end, but they followed orders, obviously. They went on a couple of missions after the atom bombs were dropped and a couple of guys were killed. August 14, one of the men recorded in his diary, god i hope we dont have to go out on another mission tomorrow. Then he added a little bit later, father moody, that was the catholic chaplain, he came by to say, no dice. We are going on a strike. The next morning, they had to do that. Hobbs was with a team of 12 hellcat fighters. Hobbes was not supposed to be on this flight. He was scheduled for a later day. Another team of four was supposed to go, but howdy harrison, the team leader traded places with that other team because he said billy needs one more mission for promotion to lieutenant. He was an ensign. He needs one more to get promoted to lieutenant, so will you switch with me . The other team was happy to switch. Billy was not necessarily overwhelmed with joy, but it was arranged and off they went even though one of the pilots said is this really necessary . They took off a little after 4 00 in the morning. The 12 hellcats did. A cloudy day. As he got closer to japan, two of the 12 hellcats were ordered to a higher altitude so they could relay messages to and from the carrier yorktown. So now the hellcat number was down to 10 that proceeded on to the target. After that, a team of four led by a guy named marvin oden got lost and his team became lost in they said a finger of overcast. I was never sure what to make of that. It doesnt sound like a very cloudy area, but he became lost and those four planes were now gone. Hellcat number was down to six that continued toward their target, which on the map that was showing is just south of tokyo. A little bit to the northeast of the dotted line there. They continued on toward tokyo and as they got near the airfield, they were getting ready to attack when the commander contacted them and said stop. We just received word the japanese have agreed to cessation of hostilities. Abort your mission and return to the carrier. Of course, we are going to be going home, all of those thoughts went screaming through their minds. They turned back and you can see on the map just north of the airfield and they were on their way out to tokyo bay when 15 to 20 japanese fighters jumps them and they became involved in a furious dogfight. Joe, one of the men who survived, he said he saw joes plane going down but joe parachuted out. He saw that but thats all he knew. That same pilot saw another hellcat explode in the air. That guy got out by parachuting as well. The other two to be downed that day were smashed into farmland or terrain right around the yokohama area. That left two guys you who got back to the carrier yorktown. Four who did not. Four who were shot down. The air group was crestfallen. This was supposed to be our happiest day. The war is over, but it wasnt. It was our saddest day. Not only do we lose four good friends, but we lost them in the final moments. Technically, you could say they were shot down after the war ended because they had been alerted that the japanese had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, but they had not yet officially sign the surrender document. That was in september. So they were crestfallen. One of the survivors, marvin odom, whose team was lost in the overcast said an interesting thing. He heard howdy harrison said to the other guys, once they learn the war is over, lets continue on and take a tour over tokyo and then they got shot down. I spent some time in the book explaining why that was not feasible. First of all, how would odom know what he told those guys because he was going back to the carrier . Second, who is going to take a tour over antiaircraft areas that have been firing away at you all war, now manned by japanese who are angry about surrendering . I talked to a vietnam aviator who flew over 100 missions over North Vietnam and i said if you got that message, lets go on a tour, he said i would turn around on my own and go back. I would never go on a tour. We would get out of there as fast as we can. While that was going on, there were two japanese farmers tending their field and they saw this dogfight occur and one of the planes crashed not far from their field. They went over and inspected. It was a plane and hundreds of pieces, so they contacted japanese officials who came out and when it cooled, they gathered up the remains of a person but there was no head, no limbs, just a trunk was all. No identification could be made. The japanese did, they wrapped it up in batting and carried it to the local buddhist shrine for the Buddhist Monk to take care of. So they properly took care of the remains of whoever that particular pilot was. While everybody in the United States, everyone in the pacific was celebrating the end of war, everyone who was from the United States and Great Britain etc. The people back home, and billy hobbs hometown, they threw an all night celebration. Cars, after, night drove by, honking their horns, booze really flowed, everyone having a good time. Hobbs and mandeberg families couldnt celebrate. They were happy, they assumed their sons were safe, because, i mean, lets face, it what are the eyes of my son is going to die in the final moments of war . No, that would happen. But still cautious. We dont have word. Wait until we find of word. In the coming days other families received word from their loved ones that, hey, im okay, ill be home soon or later, they didnt. In fact, some of those letters written to billy hobbs for his birthday, which happened to be august 15th, the day he was shot down, his 22nd birthday. Some of the letters and cars for that was returned with that horrible stamp, return to thunder. Theyre going, whats going on . It wasnt until september that the government officially informed him that those pads were machine and action. They could be declared dead, because there are no remains. That to be kept on books for a year and one day as missing, then on august 16th, 1946, is when they officially declared them missing. Since the families buried momentous and memories instead of the actual remains, open wounds persisted for a long time. Both hobbs, the mom of billie and eugenes mom, truly believe, one day their sons would come walking through the front door. They never gave up that hope. They knew it wasnt realistic, but mom speaking moms, nancy, hobbes told me mom is always out on the front porch she thought billy would come walking up the pathway there. Every, year on the anniversary of that death, august 15th, hobbs had a poem printed in the local newspaper to honor her son. We 1946, Army Graves Registrations recovered the remains of that pilot that crashed in the farmland. They took those remains to the philippines and buried them along with the remains, which they couldnt identify because dna was not in existence then. They did recover some pieces of the aircraft that indicated, probably, how they said, it the plane came from new york down, and it was a hell cat. So, one of the three parachuted into tokyo bay, and was gone one of either hobbs, mandeberg, or harrison. The, eventually, the governments dna team caught up with everything that remains in hawaii, we are testing them, taking dna samples from the hobbs and mandeberg families, and hopefully they will come to a conclusion on who that person, is and one family will get that kind of closure. Its an Important Mission the d. O. D. Still carries on. A quick sidebar, that museum is in partnership with that agency, the defense p. O. W. , mia, accounting agency. We have a Research Historian here, a young man who is helping them research a last actions of those who were followed and remain unidentified. So hopefully will figure out which one of those three boys it was, and the family will be able to have a proper burial. John, a couple of followups on, that you had mentioned the celebrations for the allied side. What was your experience with any japanese archives . We had an interview a couple weeks ago on the anniversary of the sinking of the uss indianapolis, and the coauthors mentioned that the sub commander came home, even though he had just signed a big capital ship, he came home feeling like a loser because they lost the war. Was there a japanese reaction, or were they happy they got killed in the closing days of the war . The main reaction would have been the first one you mentioned, the indignity of losing. All ofcykyko us were willing tt to the death, and now we had to surrender. It was hard for them to handle that. Thats why you had some of the incidents of some japanese planes attacking different areas, possibly the 15 or 20 who attack the hubs group may have had the reason of vengeance to surrender. They certainly considered a loss of face, and only in the upper words, pretty much, was sealed, okay, weve got to accept this. We have to endure the uninterrupted. The biggest name, the greatest man in your book, one of the most [inaudible] admiral halsey, he plays a role in your book, a controversial one at that. How does he tie in . I as i mentioned, i did a biography of halsey earlier, he, i have loved reading about admiral policy. A fascinating guy, aggressive, he sort of almost invented the sound of bite years before that was even a phrase. He was quotable in the press, newspaper correspondents loved chatting with him because he would give them something to one. Quite often laced with profanities. If we put an actual coat of policy up on the screen, there have to be asterisks and question marks and exclamation marks all over the place to fill in for the curse. In the early two years of the war, he brought american morale back up after pearl harbor. He did a marvelous job, and for that alone, he deserves a place in a pantheon of naval heroes. He attacks some early island raids, in early 1942, and he took do littlest raiders out to lunch on their bombing raid over tokyo. He went down to the South Pacific as commander of the South Pacific, and turned around the situation there. He contributed greatly, and the home front made him a big hero. After that, he started making a feet, mistakes. Hey blundered the battle of the gulf, highly because post to chase after aircraft carriers. He had missed out both the battle of the coral sea and midway. We wanted to crack at japanese carriers before the war ended. He went chasing off after that, that allowed the other admiral to storm through straight. And all the courageous actions of taffy three for the admiral, the ships that jim horn fischer so notably mentioned, with the tin cans sailors, they got a complete disaster there. Halsey was criticized for that. In december of 44, and june of 45, he led his ships into two typhoons, which one of them caused considerable damage to the ships and lives. He would have been sacked, but he was such a home front hero, that the ad one washington said we have to keep him on, we cant get rid of him. For halsey, the station the coast of japan was a chance at redemption. My reputation is tarnished, but now, if i can finish off the japanese fleet, if i can pound them into the last day of the war, i will redeem and salvage my reputation. Therefore, some of his judgments, according to air group 88, and every man i spoke to an air group 88 condemns halsey without plugging and i. Thats their instant reaction. I blame him for the deaths, that kind of thing. Because the weapon that halsey was using to help regain a reputation where the aviators, billy hobbs, Eugene Mandeberg, etc. There is that controversy. Was he correct in doing that . He was under orders, the king told him to do this, you have to follow orders. The question, is where those borders even appropriate when there were so little left of anything to hit . Thats the controversy. It was hard for me to write that section, i was writing the book about air group 88, so i had to write it from their point of view. Their anger at this admiral, that i think deserves a little bit of a break because of the first two years of the war, the contributions he made there. Still, you talk to group mediate, and there is a season, and you talk to him today, watch out for what he might say. Lieutenant hennessy, the same thing. He did pound the Japanese Navy pretty much out of existence, so he did achieve a lot under the order sleeve is given. Some say he went too far, he could have canceled, and at least that last strike, with the japanese were literally hours from saying, all right, we give up. To your point, my second to last question, and i will close with a final question after we get to some audience questions, sadly, there must be somebody who was the last person to die in a war. These form, and as far as the combat hours are concerned, where the last four in the pacific theater. Was this a mistake . If it was a mistake, it was only a mistake made by a superior command. A senior command, but either the king or holiday. It was not a mistake by the aviators, it was a travel event, i will say. That they went out, they didnt want to, but they did what they were supposed to do. They did their duty, and so, that in itself, is admirable. In talking about the, as i often think of the band of brothers, and you know the episode about the river, sending men out to capture a german prisoner of war, why did we do, this door is almost over. That commander, he canceled the mission. You know, the aviators would have loved to have the captain and can bend, i suppose. So, agitated was not a mistake, they were doing their duty, and they were not in vain, even though it should have never happened, jeanne mandeberg, jean, eugenes knees, it is quite an artist on the west coast. She said, john, as i was growing up, i knew about eugene, and i felt him within me. He was driving me to do something created. If he wanted to be a writer, and never got the chance. I must be an artist to at least have someone doing something creative like that to honor his memory. Natalie schneider was billy hobbs grand niece, and dont ask me to figure out who is she is related. The family told me she was a grand niece. I think shes in college now, but when she wrote the paper, she was a freshman in high school, for english honors class, they could write a paper about anything. She told, she chose as her topic an imaginary scene, where patty hobbs, belize, mom is telling belize siblings, including nancy, that billy is dead, and he was killed. Natalie, 60 years later, she is writing about something that obviously has meant so much to that family. Because of these things, sonia levine, the girl who was supposed to mary jean, and the mandeberg family united. They have gotten together after all these years, shared all kinds of information. They did it thinking eugene is reaching out across all these decades to bring us together, even though we never got married, sonia side. He was the first great love of my life. I never forgot him. She went out to be married to someone else, had a wonderful life, and still does in new york city. Just yesterday, after we spoke a little bit, ive got an email from carrie hobbs, just saying, hey, august 15th is coming up, saturday, thanks for writing the book. A lot of people in town are coming up to, us and telling us what a remarkable thing billy hobbs did, and how much the family appreciates that after these decades billy husband recognized for what he did. So, i dont think there is too much in vain for these pilots. It was certainly a tragedy, but as you said, someone has to be the final today, and unfortunately, these four were. As you started this conversation, john, you had said that there was a goal to make sure that these four were not forgotten with your wonderful book dog fight over tokyo, i think youve ensured for the next couple hundred years as long as there are books or candles, those fort will not be forgotten. So, thank you very much for this presentation, we have a few questions. Air combat Information Officers had about the location of potential p. O. W. Camps and how the pilots process this information. If you came across anything with the p. O. W. Camps, did any of them ever write about them or talk about them or the egg siding of striking your them are on them . They knew the location of many. I dont want to say every single one, and try to avoid it. The interesting thing was that after august 15th, the other aviators of air group 88, especially the fighting squadron, they scoured japan. They went every prison camp they could. They checked everywhere record they could. Can we find billy hobbs and we eugene, they did know many of the location of these and wanted to go out and check and see if they are shot down a captured. And if baby they are still alive. Unfortunately, that didnt pan out. Did any of the men comment or leave journals, not just the four who died but any 88 who saw the potential of striking their own comrades. No specific comment that i came across. I came across a lot of diaries and letters and i did not see one. And i see that our wonderful helpers, chrissy and kate have just put the link to your book in our store. Of course all the purchases from our webster supporter museums educational mission. I will be check that out. We have a question from anthony who is watching the zoom here. Do we know whether the japanese pilots who attacked our planes knew the emperor had surrendered before they took off . How much after the broadcast after this surrender message to the dogfight occur . A high likelihood is how i will put it. I can not say with 100 certainty. They knew about it, they went out hunting for something. I didnt find anything in any records that indicated that they were going out to seek vengeance, but it is likely that was the case. In my book, that is how i put it. It could have been for some other reason. Maybe they didnt know about it, but probably they did. Another question from mike. Hes interested in the Research Process for the strike reconstruction. I think he is referencing the map you use in the book. Was this from after action reports . Tell us how you came up with that. After action reports were fascinating and most of my information came from those. And after action report was filed by each squadron, each aviator after a particular action was carried out. So you go to those. The flight logs didnt help a whole lot. First of all, these four pilots never made it back and they change their flight route, so there was nothing much in the flight logs. It was relying strictly on the survivors, odom, hansen, proctor, those men and what they wrote. By that, i get a description, if an after action report says they were 10 miles west of the airfield, i knew how to plot that on the map. If he says we were attacked five miles east of the airfield, i knew how to route that on the map as well. So its a combination of the official records plus personal reminiscences. I know the answer to this because we are in communication, but i think the audience would like to know what is next. I understand that there are two things in the works. There are two things, they happened coincidentally by the same time with the same publisher. The 1 am i currently immersed in is a biography of a marine officer named louis chesty heller who is considered the marines marine. Hes a legend in the marine corps and was awarded five navy crosses for his actions in nicaragua and in the pacific. All kinds of other metals. The men loved him. He was someone who would rather hang around with the privates and corporals. Especially with the staff back at headquarters, they drove him nuts. Im doing a auger fee on that for dutton. They are doing a series on great war commanders to be out in paperback version early next year sometime. The other one involves Eddie Rickenbacker. Some in the audience will know, the famous car racer, indianapolis 500 participant, who in world war i became the leading american ace chasing after german pilots and things like that. In 1942, Eddie Rickenbacker went on a secret mission for the government. They asked him to fly over the South Pacific and deliver a message to general macarthur. On his way out, the plane made a crash landing. They ran out of fuel and couldnt locate one of the interim destinations. They overshot it because of navigation mistakes. They were lost at sea for three weeks. By day, i mean a group of eight men who are on the plane. Newspapers in the United States, when i started researching this, it was just about the time kobe bryant died. The reaction to Eddie Rickenbackers death was even more so than that. All newspapers covered it and eventually, they gave up hope and some printed obituaries. They found him after three weeks at sea and made it back. So i explained this to the editor and he says ive never even heard of this, its a great tail. Fortunately, theres all kinds of information. Five of the eight men, one of them did die, five of the seven who survived wrote books about it and ive been in contact with four of the families and so both of the next two books, i will be doing. We are looking forward to both of them and hopefully by then we will be hosting the programs and maybe we can get get a twofer out of you. A question were you able to identify the japanese pilots in the attack . No. Can you talk much about the japanese records or did you find any . I like to interview the people who are there and their families as much as possible. Understood. Another question from david, you mentioned a pilot had parachuted into tokyo bay and did not survive. They think it was joe sahloff, but they are not sure. He parachuted out of his plane and they lost sight of him and nothing ever turned up. Was the survival rate poor for pilots spilling out over water . Was that par for the course, they would drown . Or was he possibly wounded . If they could somehow make it down with their plane, crash land, the chances of rescue were very high. Parachuting into the ocean, the odds plummeted. One chapter in the book is about air sea rescue, it is fascinating how they did that. The u. S. Navy would go right into tokyo bay if a pilot was down and on a raft and they would pick him up right there. So the odds were okay that way. Quick question for clarification, the dog fight was after the surrender, the broadcast of the emperor surrender message . Correct. Yes. Was there any record of any japanese shot down this is from amy, any japanese planes shot down on this august 18th. Yes they indicate eight japanese planes were shot down by the six hell cat fighters from who did what is up for debate. But they do indicate that eight were shot down. I dont see more coming in online and we are hitting that one hour mark which we wanted to try to hit. Richard says, great, for answering his question. I think that summarizes our conversation. We spoke yesterday about the houses of World War Ii History and there seems to be an infinite amount of doors to be opened. Youve certainly found a new door, a wonderful story that really honors these four men who perished but also air group 88, york town and all those who served in the pacific, so thank you very much for coming to share this with us on the eve of the 75th of this render. As i mentioned to you, i read the books, skimmed it, reddit deeper, and then really scanned it. So three times. I picked up something new every time. I hope you all go and purchase the book. Please join us next wednesday for our next webinar on the pope of physics, scientist in rico for may who was involved in the manhattan project. That will be next wednesday. Thatll give a virtual round of applause to our presenter and my friend, john wukovits. Thank you very much. It has been a pleasure. Great questions. I know you are always prepared which is not always the case with some people elsewhere, but you i know, you are topnotch. Thank you and thank everyone else, the staff for the help today and every other time ive been there. Great, we will get you back soon and we will see all of you back here next wednesday. Have a great and safe weekend. Coming up in American History tv, we hear from the National World War Ii Museum collections manager who wrote a book called loyal forces, the American Animals of world war ii. She highlights the meals, dogs, pigeons and horses that were internal part of the u. S. War effort. Thank you for joining us today. Im excited to talk about loyal forces. Lindsay barnes and i coauthored this book that was published in 2013. We did it after an exhibition on the larger topic of animals in war that we had at the museum. For the book, we narrow the focus just to talk about the u. S. Military and the use of