Transcripts For CSPAN3 Presidential Debates 1988 Presidential Debate - George H.W. Bush Michael... 20240712

Michael dukakis. Candidates took questions on taxes, the budget deficit, defense spending, and each candidates choice of running mate. Good evening, on behalf of the commission on president ial debates, i am pleased to welcome you to the second president ial debate. Im bernard shaw of cnn, cable news network. My colleagues on the panel are and cotton of abc news. Margaret warner of newsweek magazine. And Andrea Mitchell of nbc news. The candidates are Vice President george bush, the republican nominee, and governor michael dukakis. [applause] for the next 90 minutes will be questioning the candidates in a format designed and agreed to by representatives of the two campaigns. However, there are no restrictions on the questions that my colleagues and i can ask this evening. And the candidates have no prior knowledge of our questions. By agreement between the candidates, the first question goes to governor dukakis. You have two minutes to respond. Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor and irrevocably Death Penalty for the killer . No i dont bernard. I think you know that i opposed the Death Penalty for all of my life. I dont see any evidence its a deterrent. I think there are better and more effective way to deal with violent crime. Weve done so in my home state. Its one of the reasons why weve had the biggest drop in the. America where we have the lowest murder rate in any industrial state in america. But we have work to do in this nation. We work to do fight fight a real war against drugs and that something they want to lead that we havent had across many, years even though the Vice President has been at least allegedly in charge of that war. We have much to do to step up that war. The number of Drug Enforcement agents to fight both here and abroad, to work with our neighbors in this hemisphere. I want to call a hemispheric summon as soon after january forth as possible. But we also have to deal with drug education prevention here at home. Thats one of the things that i hope i can be personally as president of the United States. Weve had Great Success in my own. State weve reached out to young people and their families and have been able to help them by getting them Drug Prevention education in the early grades. So we can fight this, war and we can win this. Or we can do so in a way that marshals our forces. Provides real support for state and local Law Enforcement officers, that have not been getting that kind of support, do it in a way which will bring down a bounce in this nation. Will help our youngsters to stay away from drugs. We will stop the avalanche of drugs pouring into the country. We will make it possible for our kids and families to grab and safe and secure neighborhoods. Mister president your one minute. Rebuttal but the campaign is about seems to be a question of values. Here i do have this particular question a big difference with my opponent. You see i do believe that some crimes are so he, knows so brutal, so outrageous, and i think particularly those that result in the death of a Police Officer, those real brutal crimes i do believe in the Death Penalty and i think it is a. Deterrent and i think we need it. And im glad that the congress moved on this drug deal, and finally cold for that related to these narcotics. So we have a honest difference in opinion. I support it, and he doesnt. Now to you, Vice President bush. I quote to you this from article three, of the 20th amendment of the constitution. Quote, if at the time fixed or the beginning of the term with the president , the president elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become president. Meaning if you are elected, and die for an arbery hyundai. I automatically, dan quell would become the 21st president of the United States. What have you say about that possibility . I have confidence in it and i made a good selection. And i have never seen such a, pending a unfair pending on a young senator in my entire life. And i have never seen a president ial campaign where the president ial nominee, runs against my Vice President ial nominee. Never seen one before. Lloyd benson jumped on dan quell. He said hes had roughly the same amount of experience. He had through two terms in the senate serving, he offered the job training throw out of work for no fault of their own, but they are going to have jobs. Theyre moving into a new, competitive age, and we need that kind of thing. He unlike my opponent is a expert in national. Defense helped to amend the and i actually so we had a good, sound treaty when these people over here were talking about a. Freeze if we had listen to that we would have never had it. Treaty so i have great confidence in him. Its turning around. The American People are fair. They dont like when theres a unfair pounding or who do not. People do want to judge it on the record itself. I am proud of my choice. You know i dont think that age is only criterion. I will tell you something. Im proud that people who are 30 and 40 years old now have someone in their generation have someone whos got to be Vice President of the United States of america. I made a good selection. The American People are saying, it thats what im saying, and he can do the job. The caucus youve got one minute. Its the first president ial decision. Thats why people are concerned. Its an opportunity to demonstrate what youre looking for in a running mate. More than that is the First National security decision we have to, make the president talked about the National Security i picked lloyd benson because i thought that he was the best qualified person for the job. Mr. Bush. Mr. Bush picked dan quell, and before he did he said what much was for Vice President. It sure did. It sure did. And compton for the Vice President. Mister Vice President , yes we read your lips, no new taxes. But despite that seeing plight from president reagan after income tax rates were cut and each of the last five years some of our taxes have gone up on Social Security, cigarettes, like, or even Long Distance telephone calls. That is money threat of peoples wallets. Isnt the freeze no new taxes miss leading to voters . No, because i pledge to that. Yes some taxes have gone up. The main point is taxes have been cut and yet income is up to the federal government by 25 in the last three years. And so what i want to do is keep this expansion going. I dont want to kill it off by a tax increase. More americans have worked today, than in any time of the history of this country and a greater percentage of the workforce. The way that you kill expansions is to raise taxes. And i dont want to do that, and i want to. That what i have proposed is something much better, and it is quick to take discipline from the executive branch. Its quick to take discipline from the Congressional Branch and that is what i call it flexible freeze that allows, growth about 40 of the rate of inflation but doesnt permit the congress to just add on spending. I hear this talk about a blank check. The American People are pretty smart. They know who rates of the checks, and they know who appropriates the money. Its the United States congress and by two to one, congress is blamed for these deficits. And the answer is to discipline both executive branch, and the Congressional Branch by holding the line on taxes. So i pledge to do that, and those pessimists who say it cant be done, im sorry i just have a fundamental disagreement with them. Governor dukakis, your one minute response. When the Vice President made that pledge he broke it three times already. But i am concerned about is if we continue the policies that mr. Bush is talking about this evening, the flexible freeze someone described at the other day as some kind of slippy. He wants to spend millions under flee every weapon system. He says hes not going to reduce taxes though hes broken pledge repeatedly. He says he wants to give wealthiest 1 of people in this country 45 billion dollar tax break and we are going to pay for it. Hes been proposing all kinds of proposals for new spending costing billions. If we continue with the spending this trillion and a half new death has been added to the backs of the taxpayer and if we continue with this for another four years im worried about the next generation, if we can ever turn the situation around. We need a chief executive who can take the, lead wont blame the caucus, will, lead will go out and do the job that we expect to do in the congress of the night of states. We and to governor the caucus. Governor let me pull up on this, but a few balanced ten budgets in a row, are you promising the American People tonight that within a four year president ial term that you would balance the budget . Im not sure i can promise. That not sure that even with one of us can. I will say this that we will set as our goal a steady reduction of the deficit that will require tough choices on spending. That will require a good strong rate of economic, growth that will require a plan that works out with a congress, doesnt blame them, brings the deficit down. It will require us to go out and collect billions and billions of taxes that are being paid in the country. Thats grossly unfair to the average american paying taxes and paying it on. Time and says were going to put the iris and every taxpayer. I think it is unconscionable that we should be talking or thinking about proposing new taxes on average americans when there are billions out there, over 100 billion dollars in taxes owed not being paid. Now i think if we Work Together, if you have a president that will work with congress of the American People, we can bring that deficit down steadily to 30 billion dollars a year. Built economic growth. Build a good strong feature for america build economic development, good jobs, good schools were, kids College Opportunity for young people, clean housing, we can do all of those things and at the same time build a future in which we are standing on a good strong fiscal foundation. As you recall in the debate with senator quail, if you give any of us to hundred billion dollars worth of checks a year, we create a illusion of prosperity. But sooner or later the credit card mentality wont work and i want to bring to the white house a sense of strength and fiscal responsibility that will not a good, Strong Foundation above which this country can move, grow, invest, and build the best america for our kids and grandkids. Mister Vice President. Hes required to balance the budget by law. He has raised taxes several times. I wish he would join me as a matter of fact in appealing to the American People for the balanced Budget Amendment for the federal government, and for the line. Id like to have that light vetoed for the president , because i think that would be extraordinarily helpful. Ill do one other thing that hes had to do. Took 29 Million Dollars out of the state pension fund. Thats equivalent to the federal level of taking out of the trust fund. I wont do that. Im still a little unclear as to whether he is for or against a tax increase. I have been all for the taxpayers bill of rights all along, and this idea of unleashing a whole bunch an army, a conventional force army of irs agents into everybodys kitchen. I mean hes against most defense matters and now he wants to get an army of irs auditor is going out there. Im against that. I oppose that. Im going to say this and im going to say it wants to every person in this auditorium. What these candidates are about is of utmost seriousness to the american voters. They should be heard and you should be quiet. If you are not quite, im going to employ the candidates to do something about crowding, or quieting their own partisans. But we cannot get through this program with these outbursts. Margaret warner for governor dukakis. Good evening governor, mister Vice President. Governor you won the first debate on intellect and yet you lost it on heart. Just a minute. You will get your turn. I dont know if the Vice President agrees with that. The American Public and mired your performance but did not seem to like you much. Now, Ronald Reagan has found his personal warmth to be a tremendous political asset. Do you think the president has to be likable to be an effective leader . Pardoned may i go back and say that i did not raid the pension fund of massachusetts. Youre dead wrong, george. As a matter of fact, on the first governor in history in my state to fund that Pension System and im very proud of that. And you just had your. [applause] ive been in politics for 25 years margaret. Ive won a lot of elections ive lost a few as you know, and ive learned from those losses. I want the democratic nomination in 51 separate contests. I think im a reasonably likable guy. Im serious, though i think im a little more lovable these days than i used to be back in my youth when i began in my state legislature. But im also a serious guy. I think the presidency of the United States is a very serious office. And i think we have to address these issues in a very serious way. So, i hope and expect that i will be like by the people of this country as president of the United States. I certainly hope i will be like by them on the 8th of november. But i also think its important to be somebody whos willing to make those tough choices. Now weve just heard, two or three times from the Vice President , that hes not going to raise taxes. I repeat, within days after you made that pledge he broke it. You said, well, maybe as a last resort will do it. And you supported legislation this year thats involved in tax increases, not once, but twice. So that pledge isnt realistic, and i think the Vice President knows it. I think the people of this country know it. The fact of the matter is that the next president of the United States is going to have to go to the white house seriously. Hes going to have to work with the congress seriously. He cant turn to the congress and blamed them for the fact that we dont have a balanced budget when we have billions and billions of dollars in red ink. Im going to be a president who is serious. I hope and expect i will be liked by the American People, but more than that, i will do the kind of job than i am elected to do. I will do it with this much good humor as i can, but at the same time, i will do it in a way which will achieve the goals we want for ourselves and our people. And i think we know what they are. A good strong future. A future in which theres opportunity for every one of our citizens. One minute from the Vice President. I dont think its a question of whether people like you or not to make you an effective leader. I think its whether you share the broad dreams of the American People, whether you have confidence in the peoples ability to get things done. Or whether you think it all should be turnover, as many of the liberals do, to washington d. C. You see, i think its a question of values, not likability or love ability. Its a question in foreign affairs, of experience, knowing world leaders, knowing how to build on a superb record of this administration in arms control because you dont know exactly how to begin. You have to learn from experience that making unilateral cuts in the Defense System is not the way that you enhance the piece. Youve got to understand that it is only the United States that can stand for freedom and democracy around the world, and we cant turn it over to the United Nations or other multilateral organizations. It is, though, trying to understand the heartbeat of the country. And i know these campaigns get knocked a lot, but i think id be a better president now for having had to travel to these communities and understand the family values and the importance of neighborhood. Margaret warner for the Vice President. Please. Id like to follow up on that mr. Vice president. The tenure of the campaign youve been running, in terms of both the issues and your rhetoric, has surprised even some of your friends. Senator Mark Hadfield has known your family a long time and knew your father, the late senator press got bush, said, and i quote, if his father were alive today, im sure his father would see it as a shocking transformation. Is senator hadfield right . What was he referring to . He was referring to your performance in the campaign. I think my dad would be pretty proud of me because i think weve come a long, long way. And i think, you know, three months ago, i remember some of the great publications in this country had written me off. And what ive had to do is to define not just my position, but to define his. And i hope ive been fairly. And the reason ive had to do that is that he ran on the left in the democratic primary, ran firmly and ran with conviction and ran on his record. And then at that Democratic Convention, they made a determination and they said their ideology doesnt matter, just competence. And in the process, the negatives began. It wasnt me that was there at that convention. Thank god, i was up with jim baker camping out and did not have to hear all the personal attacks on me out of that Democratic Convention. It was wonderful not to have to listen to it. And im not the one that compare the president of the United States to rotting like a dead fish from the head down. I did not do that. But i have to find the issues and i am not going to let governor dukakis go through this election without explaining some of these very liberal positions. Hes the one that said i am a liberal traditional liberal, progressive liberal democrat. Hes the one that brought up, to garner primary votes, the whole question of the aclu. And i have enormous difference with the aclu on their political agenda. Not on their defending some minority opinion on the right or the left. I support that. But what i do not like is this leftwing political agenda. And therefore, i have to help define that. And if hes unwilling to do it, if he says ideology doesnt matter, i dont agree with him. One minute from governor dukakis. Well, margaret, weve heard it again tonight and im not surprised. The labels, i guess the Vice President called me a liberal two or three times. So i was coming from the left. In 1980, president reagan called you a liberal for voting for federal gun control. This is something republicans views for a long time. They tried it with Franklin Roosevelt and harry truman and john kennedy. Its not labels, its our vision of america. We have to fundamentally different visions of america. The Vice President is complacent. He thinks we ought to stick with the status quo. He doesnt think we ought to move ahead. He thinks things are okay as they are. I dont. I think this is a great country because weve always wanted to do better. To make our country better. To make our lives better. Weve always been a nation which was ambitious for america and we move forward. And thats the kind of america i want. Thats the kind of leadership i want to provide, but i dont think these labels mean a thing. I would hope that tonight, and in the course of the rest of this campaign, we can have our good solid disagreements on issues. Theres nothing the matter with that, but lets talk labeling each other and lets get to the heart of the matter which is the future of this country. [applause] Andrea Mitchell for the Vice President. Mister Vice President , governor. Mister Vice President , let me return for a moment to the issue of the budget. Because so much has already been put off limits in your campaign that most people do not believe that the flexible freeze alone will solve the problem of the deficit. So lets turn to defense for a moment. Pentagon officials tell us theres not enough money in the budget to handle military military readiness and preparedness as well as new Weapons Systems that have been proposed as well as those already in the pipeline. You were asked at the first debate whats new Weapons Systems you would cut. You mentioned three that had already been canceled. Can you tonight share with us three new Weapons Systems that you would cut . If i knew a three new weapon systems that i thought were purely waist and werent protected by the congress, they wont be in the budget. They would not be in the budget. But you want one now . Ill give you one, that heavy truck that costs 850 Million Dollars. The pentagon did not request it, and get a member of congress, a very powerful one, put it in the budget. I think we can save money through this whole race sophisticated concept, andrea, but i know you do understand, of competitive strategies. It is new and it is a very, very different than whats happened. But its not quite ready to be totally implemented, but its very important. I think we can save through the Packard Commission report, and im very proud that david packard, the originator of that report, is strongly supporting me. So its not a question of saying our budget is full of a lot of waste. I dont believe that. I do think this, we are in the series stages of negotiation with the soviet union now and the strategic arms control talks. We are protecting a couple of options in terms of modernizing our Strategic Forces. My secretary of defense is going to have to make a very difficult decision in which system to go forward with. Were moving forward the negotiations i just think it would be done negotiating policy with the soviets to cut out one or the other of the two options right now. The soviets are modernizing. They continue to modernize, and we cant simply say weve got enough Nuclear Weapons, lets freeze. We cant do that. We have to have modernization, especially if we achieved the 50 reduction in strategic weapons that our president is taking the leadership to obtain. And so, thats the way id reply to it. And i believe we can have the strongest and best defenses possible if we modernize, if we go forward with competitive strategies, and if we do follow through on the packet commission report. Governor dukakis, one minute. Well, andrea, weve just had another example of why the Vice President s mathematics just doesnt add up. I think you know because youve cover these issues, that theres no way that we can build all of the Weapons Systems the Vice President says he wants to build within the existing Defense Budget. Everybody knows that, including the people at the pentagon. Now, my defense accra terry is going to have a lot to do with some of those decisions, but its going to be the president thats going to have to ultimately decide before the budget goes to the congress whats estimates are going to go and what are going to start. We are not going to spend the billions and trillions that mr. Bush wants to spend on star wars. Were not going to spend billions on railroad cars. Its a weapon systems we dont need, cant afford and wont help our defense posture at all. We wont spend hundreds of millions on the space point from washington to tokyo. Those are the decisions that the chief executive has to make. Yes, were going to have a strong and credible and Effective Nuclear deterrent. Were going to go forward with the stock, the d five in the advanced Cruise Missile and good conventional forces. But the next president of United States will have to make some tough and difficult decisions. Im prepared to make them. Governor. The Vice President is not. Andrea has a question for you. Governor, continuing on that subject then, you say we have to do something about conventional forces. You have supported the submarine launched missile that you just referred to. Yet, from jerry for to jimmy carter to Ronald Reagan, theres been a bipartisan consensus in favor of modernizing the land based missiles. You have ruled out the amex and the magic man. More recently, some of your aides have hinted at some flexibility that you might show about some other new form of missile. Can you tell us tonight why you have rejected the collected wisdom of people as diverse as sam, none, kissinger, our gore, people in both parties. And what type of land based missile would you consider . Andrea, today we have 13,000 Strategic Nuclear were warheads. On land, on air and in the sea. Thats an incredibly powerful nuclear deterrent. I dont rule out modernization and there are discussions going on right now in congress and the pack to gone about a less expensive modernized land based leg of the try it. But there are limits to what we can spend. There are limits to this nations ability to finance these Weapons Systems. And one of the things the Vice President either ignores or wont address is the fact that you cant divorce our military security from our Economic Security. How can we build a strong american militarily thats teeter targeting on a mountain of debt . If we go forward with the kinds of policies the Vice President is suggesting tonight, and has in the past, that that is going to grow bigger and bigger and bigger. So military security and economy charity go hand in hand. So military security and Economic Security go hand in hand. We will have a strong and effective and Credible Nuclear Deterrent. Were going to have conventional forces that are well maintained, well equipped, well trained, well supported. And we have Serious Problems with our conventional forces at the present true, and theyll get worse unless we have a president who is willing to make some of these decisions. And we also have important domestic priorities in education, in housing, in health care, and economic development, and job training, and the environment. Now all of these things are going to have to be addressed. Thats why i say again to all of you out there who have to deal with your Household Budgets and know how difficult it is, the next president has to do the same. I want the men and women of our armed forces to have and support they need to defend us, the support they need when they risked our lives to keep us free and to keep this country free. But we cannot continue to live on credit cards, we cannot continue to tell the American People that were going to build all of the systems at the same time, invest in important things here at home. And be serious about building a strong and good america and thats the kind of america i want to build. One minute for the president. I held off for the applause. You can proceed sir. I think the foremost responsibility for the president really gets down to the National Security of the president. The governor taxable limits, but we cant, do poses these two modernization systems. Talking about how we could develop a new missile. It takes eight, years nine years to do. That he talked about in Nuclear Freeze when i was in europe trying to convince a european with the inf weapons and thank god the freeze people were not heard. They were wrong, and the result is we deployed and the soviets kept the plane and then we negotiated from strength and then we have the first arms control agreement in the new age to ban weapons. You just do not make unilateral cuts in the naive hope that the soviets are going to be himself. World peace is important and we have an end to the peace and im part to have been part of the administration has done exactly that. Peace through strength works. And compton for governor the caucus. Governor they may call them role models but they used to be called heroes. The kind of public hero who could inspire a whole generation. Someone who is larger than life. My question is not who your heroes were my question instead is who are the heroes in American Life today . Who are the ones you would point out to Young Americans as figures who should inspire this country . Well, i think when i think of heroes i think, back not presently, and. But there are many people who i admire in this country today. Some of them are in public life, the senate and congress. Some of my fellow governors who are real heroes to me. I think of those Young Athletes who represented us at the olympics, who were tremendously impressive. We were proud of them. We felt strongly about, them and they did so well bias. I can think of doctors and scientists. Jonas salk for example discovered a vaccine which cured one of the most dread diseases we ever had, hes a hero. I think a classroom teachers. Clusters that i have had. Classroom teachers that youngsters have today who are real heroes to our young people because they inspire them. They teach them. But more than that they are role models. Members of the clergy have done the same. Drug counselors out there on the street who are providing help to youngsters, who come up to me and others and ask for help and want help. Theyre doing the hard work, the heroic work which it takes to provide a kind of leadership, the kind of counseling, that kind of support. I think people in the Law Enforcement community who are taking their lives in their hands every day, when they go up to one of those doors and kick it down and try to solve the slow drugs into our communities and into our kids. So there are many, many heroes in this country today. These are people that give of themselves every day and every week and every. Month in many cases there people in the community who are examples and our role models. And i would hope that one of the things i could do as president is to recognize them, to give them the kind of recognition that they need and deserve, so that more and more young people can themselves become the heroes of tomorrow, can go into public service, can go into, teaching can go into drug, counseling can go into Law Enforcement and purest themselves for generations yet to come. One minute for Vice President bush. I think of a teacher right. Here largely hispanic school. Jamie escalante teaching calculus to young kids, 80 of them going to college. I think of a young man now in this country, named valid errors, who was released from a cuban jail, came out and tell the truth in this playbook, against all hope. It was about what is actually happening in cuba. I think of those people that have his back into space again. Rick how, and the crew. People that are worthy of. This i agree with the governor on athletics, and theres no thing corny about having sports heroes. Young people that are clean and honorable and out there setting the piece. I think of doctor fauci. You probably never heard of him. Oh you did. And heard of him. Hes a very Fine Research top doctor at National Institute of health. Working hard doing something about research on this disease of aids. But look, i also think have to give a little credit to the present of the United States. He is the one that has gotten as the first arms control agreement and the cynics abound. Mister Vice President and he is leaving office with a popularity at an alltime high mister Vice President , your time has expired. Lets change the pace a little bit mister Vice President. In this campaign some hard and very bitter things have been spoken by each side of each side. If you consider for a moment governor the caucus and his years of public service. Is there anything else you can say about . Him anything you find admirable . You are stealing my clothes. I had something very nice to say. Somebody leaked question . To you know look at all. You know let me tell you something about. That barbara and i were sitting there before the Democratic Convention we saw the governor and his son on the television there before, and his, family and his mother who is. There emptying to barbara, you know we have always kept family as a bit of an oasis for us. You all know me. And we have held it back a little. But we use that as a role model. The way he took understandable pride in his heritage. With his family needs to him, and weve got a Strong Family and we watched that and we say weve got to unleash the bush. Kids and so you saw ten grandchildren theyre dumping all over the grandfather at the convention. You see our five kids all over this country, and their spouses. So i would say that the concept of dukakis family has my great respect. I dont know if that is kind or not. It is just object to. Statement and i think anybody that gets into this political arena and has to be success every day deserves a word of praise because its gotten a little ugly at. There its gotten a little. Nasty its not much fun sometimes. And i would say it again dan quell. Ive been in politics a long time and i dont remember the kind of piling. On that kind of ugly rumor that was never true. Printed. Now come on. So some of it is unfair. Hes in the arena. Teddy roosevelt used to talk about the arena. You know daring to feel greatly or succeed. This matter. Hes in there. So a salute these. Things a salute those who put a spin the plug process. Sam rebrand had a great expression on. This he said you know there are all these intellectuals of the griping and complaining insiders negative coverage. Rayburn says yeah and the guy never ran for sheriff, either. Michael detectives has run for sheriff and so has george. Bush governor, one minute response sir. I didnt hear the word liberal or left onetime. Thats not bad. Thats the truth. Doesnt that prove a point george . Which is that those like family and education, community, if its where you want to take the country. Decent homes for young people. That family on long island i visited on monday where lou and betty colombo bought a house for some 19,000 dollars back in 1962. Theyve had seven children. They are all making good living. They cant live in the community in which they grew up in. Those are basic american values. I believe in them. I think you believe in. Them they are not left or right. Theyre decent american values. I guess the one thing that concerns me about this, and, is this attempt to label things which all of us believe. Then we may have different approaches, we may think that you deal with them and different ways, but basically american. I believe in. Them george bush believes in. Them i think the vast majority of americans believe in them and i hope. Governor. The tone weve just heard might be the tone of the rest of the campaign. I think the American People it appreciate. That Margaret Warner for the Vice President. Vice president , bush abortion marines with us a very troubling issue and id like to wear that with you for a minute. You said that you regard abortion as murder, yet he would make exceptions in the case of rape and incest. My question is why should a woman who discovered brew amarillo since he says that her body baby will be born with texas is for instance and at the baby will live at most two years and those two years an incredible pain, be forced to carry the fetus to term. And yet a woman who becomes pregnant through incest will be allowed to a quarter. Venus because you love the one other exception. Theyll have the mother. Let me answer your question. I hope it doesnt get too personal or maudlin. Barr and i lost a. Child you know that. We lost a daughter, robin. I was over running records in west texas, and i got a call from her to come. Home went to the doctor. The doctor said, beautiful child, your child has a feud to. Live and i said what can we do about it. He said no, she has leukemia, acute leukemia. A few weeks to. Live we took the child to new york, thanks to the miraculous sacrifice of doctors and nurses the child stayed alive for six months and then died. If that child were here today and still the same thing, my grand daughter noelle, for example, that child could stay alive for ten or 15 years or maybe for the rest of her life. And so i dont think that you make an exception based on medical knowledge of the time. I think human life is very, very precious. And look this hasnt been a easy decision for me to meet. I know others disagree with that. But when i was in that Little Church across the river from washington, and saw our grandchild christened in our faith, i was very pleased indeed that the mother had not aborted that child and put the child up for adoption. And so i just feel this is one coming. From and it is personal. And i dont sail him on that issue, or others on the issue. But thats the way i george bush, feel about. It one minute for governor dukakis. Margaret, kitty and i had very much the same kind of experience that the bushes had. We lost a baby. It lived about 20 minutes after it was born. But isnt the real question that we have to answer not have any exceptions we make, because the Vice President himself is prepared to make exceptions. Its to make the decision. Who makes this very difficult, very wrenching decision . And i think it has to be the woman, an exercise of her conscience and religious beliefs, that makes that decision. Who are we to say, well under certain circumstances its all right, but under other circumstances it isnt . Thats a decision that only a woman can make, but consulting her conscience and consultant her religious principles. And i would hope that we would give to women in this country the right to make that decision, and to make it and exercise of their conscience and religious beliefs. Governor, murder has a question for. You governor id like to return to the topic of the Defense Budget for. Minute youve said in this campaign that you would meet the need stable Defense Budget. Yet, you are on the advisory board. And incidentally, me i say that its the decision of the congress and the president that has conquered. Yet, you are on the board of a group called jobs of peace and bust in the advocates at 25 cut in Defense Budget, and the transfer of that money to the domestic economy. My question is do you share that goal perhaps as a long range goal. And if not, are you aware of or why diplomat this group to continue to use your name on its letter had for fundraising . Well i think i was on the advisory committee. Margaret. No i dont have been sure that. Is an example of how oftentimes we may be associated with organizations, all of whose particular positions we dont, support even though we support in general the hope that overtime, particularly if we can get those reductions in strategic weapons, if we kicked up a comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, if we can negotiate with the soviet union bring down the level of conventional forces in europe with the pockets in the soviet side, yes, at some point it may be possible to reduce defense outlays. And use those four important things here at home, like jobs and job training and College Opportunity and health and housing and the environment and the things that all of us care about. But i do think this, the next president , even within a relatively stable, budget and thats where were gonna have for the foreseeable future, we will have to make the tough choices that i was talking about and that mr. Bush doesnt want to make. And that release could be a chance for the next president of the United States. I dont think theres a question about it. But i also see tremendous opportunity now to negotiate with the soviet union to build on the progress that weve made with the inf treaty, which i strongly supported and most immigrants did, to get those reductions in strategic weapons, to get a Test Ban Treaty and to really make progress on the reduction of conventional forces in europe. And if we can do, that and do it in a way that gets deeper cuts on the soviet side, which is where they ought to come, from that i think we have opportunity over the long haul to begin to move some of our resources from the military to important domestic priorities that can provide College Opportunity for that young woman whose mother wrote me from texas just the other day from long texas. Two teachers, a mother and a father, who have a child who is a freshman in college. Electrical engineering major. A bright student and they cant afford to keep that shot from college. So i hope that we can begin to move those resources. Its not going to happen overnight. It certainly will have it to happen on a step to step basis as we make progress on arms negotiation and arms control and arms reduction. But its certainly governor. Ought to be a long term goal of all americans and i think it is. One minute for the Vice President. The Defense Budget today takes pilots percentage of the Gross National product than it did in president kennedys time, for example. Its moved tremendously. And you see, i think we are facing a real opportunity for peace. This is a big question and its a question as to whether the United States will continue to lead for peace. You see, i dont believe any other country can pick up the mantle. I served at the un. I dont think we can turn over these kinds of decisions of the collective defense to the United Nations or anything else. So when im saying is we are going to have to make choices. I said i would have the secretary of defense sit down. While the president is negotiating with the soviet union, i simply do not want to make these unilateral cuts and i think those that advocated the freeze missed the point that there was a better way and that better way has resulted in a principle, asymmetrical cuts. Soviets take out more than we do and the principle of intrusive verification. And those two principles cannot be applied to conventional forces, district egypt forces, provided mr. Vice president. We dont give away our hand before we sit down at the table. You are now facing that dreaded last resort, increased taxes. Which tax do you decide is the least onerous. May i disagree with the premise of your question . For the sake of argument, no. As i matter of reality im going to have to because we have had not won, but to detailed studies which indicate that there are billions and billions of dollars to be collected. These are not taxes owed by average americans. We dont have an alternative. We lose it when its taken out of our paycheck before we even get it. But it is the Internal Revenue service which estimates now that we are collecting 100 billion dollars or more in taxes owed in this country. And that is just absolutely unfair to the vast majority of americans to pay their taxes and pay them on time. The task force which included to Internal Revenue commissioners, one republican and one democrat, was a bipartisan commission. A study by two respected economists which indicated we could collect some 40, 45, 50 billion dollars of those funds. The point is, youve got to have a president was prepared to do this and to begin right away, and preferably, a president who as a governor of state has had a very successful experience in doing this. In my own state, we did it. In other states, weve done it. Republican governors as well as democratic governors. Weve had Great Success at revenue enforcement. Now, the Vice President will probably tell you that its going to take an army of irs collectors again. Well, his Campaign Manager used to be secretary of the treasury, was taking great credit about a year ago in asking and receiving from the congress substantial additional funds to hire Internal Revenue agents to go out and collect these funds. Im happy to join jim baker in saying that we agree on this. But the fact of the matter is that this is something that we must begin. Its going to take at least the first year of the new administration. But the door again task force, the Bipartisan Task force, estimate that we could collect about 35 billion dollars the fifth year. 105 billion dollars over the five years. The other study even more than that. One minute response, mister Vice President. Andrea, you did not predicate that lack of economist support for what i call a flexible freeze because some good, very good economists, do you support that concept. And i think where i differ with the governor of massachusetts is i am optimistic. They jumped on me yesterday for being a little optimistic about the United States. I am optimistic and i believe we can keep this longest expansion going. I was not out there when the stock market dropped ringing my hands and saying this was the end of the world, as some political leaders were, because it isnt the end of the world. And what we have to do is restrain the growth of spending. And we are doing a better job of it. The congress is doing a better job of it. And the dynamics work, but they do not work if you go raise taxes and then the Congress Spends it. They continue to spend that. The american working men and women are not attacked too little. The federal government continues to spend too much. [applause] hold it. Mister Vice President , andrea has a question for you. Mister Vice President , you have flatly ruled out any change in Social Security benefits, even for the wealthy. Now can you stand here tonight and look a whole generation of 18 to 34yearolds in the eye, the very people who are going to have to be financing that retirement, and tell them that they should be financing the retirement of people like yourself, like governor dukakis, or for that matter, people such as ourselves here on this panel. More so you than me, but. We could argue about that. No, but you have to go back to whats official security was when it was created. It was not created as a welfare program. It wasnt created it was created as a whole retirement or help supplement retirement program. It was not created as a welfare program. So heres whats happened. We came into office and the Social Security trust fund was in great jeopardy. The president took the leadership working with the democrats and the republicans in congress. Some tough calls were made and the Social Security trust fund was put back into sound solvent condition. So i dont want to fool around with it. And theres several, theres a good political reason, because its just about this time of year that the democrats start saying the republicans are going to take away your Social Security. It always works that way. Ive seen it in precinct politics in texas and ive seen it at the national level. We have made the Social Security trust fund sound and it is going to be operating at surpluses, and i dont want the liberal Democratic Congress to spend out of that Social Security trust fund or go and take the money out for some other purpose. I dont want that. And i will not go in there and suggest changes in Social Security. I learned that the hard way. And the governor and i both supported slipping the colas for one year. He supported it at the National Governors conference and i supported it in breaking a tie in a major compromise package. We got a sailed by the democrats in the election over that, and im going to keep that Social Security trust fund sound and keep our commitment to the elderly. And maybe down the line, maybe when you get two decades or one into the next century, youre going to have to take another look at it, but not now. We do not have to do it. Keep the trust with the older men and women of this country. Governor, you have one minute, sir. Andrea, i dont know which george bush im listening to. George bush a few years ago said that Social Security was basically a welfare system. And in 1985, he flew back from the west coast to cut that a cola. I voted against that. We won a majority, we did not win the two thirds that was necessary in order to pass that resolution, but everyone knew what we were doing and i propose that. The reason that we raised concerns, not just an Election Year but every year, is because republicans, once they are elected, go in there and start cutting. You did it in 1985. The administration tried to do it repeatedly in 81 and 82. And im sure youll try to do it again because there is no way that you can finance what you want to spend, theres no way that you can pay for that fiveyear 40 billion dollar tax cut for the rich and still buy all those weapon systems you want to buy unless you read the Social Security trust fund. Ann compton for the Vice President. Mister Vice President , there are three justices of the Supreme Court who are in their eighties and its very likely the next president will get a chance to put a lasting mark on the Supreme Court. For the record, would your nominees to the Supreme Court have to pass something that has been called a kind of conservative ideological litmus test . And would you give us an idea of perhaps who two or three people on your shortlist are for the court . One, i dont have a list yet. I feel pretty confident tonight, but not that confident. And secondly, i dont have any litmus test. But when i would do is appoint people to the federal bench that will not legislate from the bench, who will interpret the constitution. I do not want to see us go to, again, and im using this word advisedly, a liberal majority, that is going to legislate from the bench. They dont like the use of the word, but may i remind his strong supporters that it only last year in the primary, the capture that democratic nomination, he said i am a progressive liberal democrat. I wont support judges like that. There is no litmus test on any issue, but i will go out there and find men and women to interpret. And i dont have a list, but i think the appointments that the president has made to the bench have been outstanding. Outstanding appointments. Including bork . Yeah. Governor, you have a one minute response time. If the president if the Vice President of the United States thinks that robert bork was an outstanding appointment, that is a very good reason for voting for mike newcastles mike dukakis and lloyd benson on the 8th of november. I think mr. Bush supported the bork nomination you know, mr. Bush has never appointed to judge. Ive appointed over 130, so i have a record. And im very proud of it. I dont ask people whether they are republicans or democrats. Ive appointed prosecutors, ive appointed defenders. I dont appoint people i think are liberal or people who i think are conservative. I appoint people of independence and integrity and intelligence. People who will be a credit to the bench. And those are the standards that i will use and nominating people to the Supreme Court of United States. These appointments are for life. These appointments are for life and when the Vice President talks about liberals on the bench, i wonder who hes talking about . Is he talking about a former governor of the state of california who is a former prosecutor . Governor. And a republican named earl warren . Because i think chief Justice Warren was an outstanding chief justice, and i think most americans do as well. Ann compton as a question for you governor dukakis. Governor, millions of americans are entitled to some of the protections and benefits that the federal government provides, including Social Security, pensions, medicare for the elderly, medicaid for the poor. But in fact, there are so many millions of americans who are eligible, the government just cant continue to pay for all of those programs as they are currently constituted. A blue ribbon panel, shortly after the election, is likely to recommend where it you go where the money is when you make budget cuts, and that means entitlements. Before the election, would you commit yourself to any of those hard choices such as which one of those entitlements ought to be redrawn . Andrea, why do people who want to balance budgets, or bring the deficit down, always go to those programs which tend to benefit people of very modest means . Now you know, two thirds of the people in this country who receive Social Security checks live entirely on that check. They have no other income. And yet, mr. Bush try to cut their cost of living increase in 1985. Medicare is not getting less expensive. Medical care for the elderly is getting more expensive, with greater deductibles, with fewer benefits, the kinds of things that weve had under this administration that have cut and chopped and reduced the kinds of benefits that one gets under medicare. Yes, we now have Catastrophic Health insurance, but its going to cost and thats going to be an additional burden on elderly citizens. It had bipartisan support, it shouldve had bipartisan support, but i suggest that we understand that those are going to be additional costs on Senior Citizens across this country. So im not going to begin, and im not going to go to entitlements, as a means for cutting that deficit when we are spending billions on Something Like star wars. When were building when were spending billions under the weapon systems which apparently the Vice President wants to keep in his back pocket or someplace, but which, if we continue to spend billions on them, will force us to cut Social Security, to cut medicare, to cut these basic entitlements to people of very, very modest means. Now, there are some things we can do to help people who currently do get entitlements to get off of public assistance. I talked at our first debate about the possibilities of helping millions and millions of welfare families to get off of welfare. Im proud to say that we finally have a welfare reform bill. And the ruby sampsons and don lawsons, hundreds of thousands of welfare mothers in this country and in my state and across the country, who today are working in earning, are examples of which can happen when you provide training for those welfare mothers, some day care for their childrens, so those mothers can go into a Training Program and get a decent job. Thats the way you bring a deficit down and helped to improve the quality of life for people at the same time. One minute for the Vice President. I think ive addressed it, but let me simply say for the record that i did not vote to cut koalas. I voted the same way that he did three months before in a National Governors conference. And he said at that time, quote, and this is a paraphrase, a freeze, thats easy. So i dont believe that we need to do what you suggested here, and ive said that im going to keep the Social Security element. Keep that trust fund sound. But i do think there are flexible ways to solve some of the pressing problems particularly affecting our children. And have made some good sand proposals. But again weve got a big difference on childcare for example. You see, i want the family to have the choice. I dont want to see the federal government licensing grandmothers. I dont want to see the federal government saying to communities, you cant do this anymore. We are meant to tell you how to do it all. I want flexibility. These people laugh about the thousand points of lives. You got to go out and see in this country whats happening in the volunteer sector. Americans helping america. I want people to rely on childcare and other incomes. Governor up with the pass on the question i originally planned to ask you to follow up on your rebuttal to question andrea asked. And that involved Social Security. Now it is true as you said. Originally you sought exemption for security cool was in this National Governors association vote. Right. No new less about you than indoors overall fierce proposal. And whats more, you had great criticism of your federal fellow governors who wouldnt go along as political cowards. You said that is absolutely not true you said it takes guts no. That is absolutely not. True it had nothing to do with the debate on Social Security. It had to do with the discussion we had the previous day on the overall question of reducing the budget. My question is, arent you demagoguing the Social Security issue . No. I just have to correct the record. That simply isnt true. Now, were not a parliamentary, body the National Governors association. We vote on resolutions. If you dont get a two thirds, then your resolution is a. Pass but everybody knew that those of us who voted against the freezing of coal as did so, we did so emphatically. And i never me that. Statement never would. The point is as we look at this nations future, and we have two very different visions of the future. I want to move ahead. The Vice President talks about thousand points. Blight im interested in 240 million points of light. Im interested in turn to 40 million citizens in this country who share in the american dream. All of, them in every part of this country. But as we look at the decisions that the next president of the United States going to have to, make i just dont believe the place you go first is those programs, those socalled entitlements which provided basic floor of income and a modest amount of medical care for the elderly, for the, disabled for people who cant make their way on their own and in many, cases have been given a great deal to this country. The Vice President did call Social Security a few years ago, basically or largely a welfare program. It isnt. Its a contract between generations. Its something that we pay into now so that we will have a secure retirement, and our parents and grandparents will have a secure. Torment its a very sacred contract and i believe in. It so thats not where we ought to go. There are plenty of places to. Cut theres a lot we can do in the pentagon, were dishonest contractors have been lining the pockets of expense of the american taxpayer. There are we certainly ought to be able to give our from families a decent income without spending 20 to 25 billion dollars a year in farm subsidies and im sure we can do that. Thats where we at the go in those are the programs that we ought to review first. One minute for the Vice President. Let me take him on this question of farm subsidies. We have a fundamental different approach on agricultural. He favors this supply maintenance or protection controls. He said that. Hes been up in the states saying, that in these midwestern state. I dont. I think the farm bill that he criticizes was good legislation, upstanding legislation. And i believe the answer to the agricultural economy is not to get the government for their involved, but to do which i was. Suggesting first, place never go back to that democratic green embargo, that liberal democrat green embargo to knock the markets right out from under us and meet mr. Gorbachev seek to me when he was here had i know youre reliable suppliers . We never should go back to that. And we ought to expand our market abroad. We ought to have rule enterprise zones. We ought to move forward swiftly and my ideas of ethanol, which would use more corn and therefore make, create a bigger market for our agricultural product. But lets not go back and keep assailing a farm bill that passed with overwhelming the met crowd and republican support. Mister Vice President. The foreign payments are going down because the Agricultural Company is coming back. Margaret warner has a question for you, mister Vice President. Mister Vice President i would like to cover a separate that was uncovered in the first debate. You have said in this campaign, i am eight environmentalist. And described herself as having zero towers for polluters. If your record does seem to suggest otherwise. When you were head of the president s task force on regulatory relief, you did urge epa to relax regulations involving the elimination of lead from gasoline. I believe you urged suspension of rules requiring industries to treat toxic waste before disturbing them in sewers. And your group also urged osha to weaken regulations requiring that workers be informed dangerous chemicals at the worksite. Finally, i believe you did support the president s veto of the clean water act. And my question as, arent you, how do square your Campaign Rhetoric with this record . 90 reduction in lead since i chaired that Regulatory Task force. 90 . You remember that expression . Get the lead out . Its almost out. Almost gone. Clean water . Im for clean water. But what i am not for is measuring it the way that the Democratic Congress does. We set up a good bill on clean water. A sound bill on clean water. But the only way you can express your love for clean water is to double the appropriations for clean water, and then rant against the deficit. I am for clean water. I have been a outdoorsmen and sportsman all my life. Ive been to these national parks. I will lead for the oral wall of, bill or formally dingell. Johnson i headed the task force when i was a member of the congress way back in the late sixties on these kinds of things on the republican side. I lead. That and so i refuse to measure once commitment as to whether it was a double spending. That is the same old argument thats gotten us into the trouble on the deficit side. So i will just keep saying i am. One i am not going to go in there and try to dump the sled from massachusetts off the beaches off of new jersey. Im not going to do that. That boo was excessive. Can you add five seconds bernie . Out of fairness. Come on. Give me five. This is too much down there. But im not going to do that. I am a environmentalist. I believe in our perks. I believe in the President Commission on outdoors. And i will do a good job because im committed. Governor dukakis, you have one minute to respond. Im not sure i can get all of this in one minute. George we have supply management today. Under the 1985 belittled the set asides. Secondly, if you are so opposed to the great embargo why did you ask the godfather of green embargo to be one of your top Foreign Policy advisers . Im against the grain embargo. It was a mistake. Im also accused the pipeline embargo which you folks attempt to impose. That was a mistake as, well and cost thousands of jobs for American Workers in the midwest and all over the needed states of america. Margaret, once again i dont know which george bush im talking about here are looking at. The george bush who is a charter member of the environmental wrecking crew that went to washington in the early eighties and didy job on the epa or the one weve seen and listen to the past three months. But let me say this, because he spent millions of millions of dollars in advertising on the subject of boston harbour. George boston harbour was polluted for 100. Years and the first governor to clean it up. No thanks to. You know thanks to you. And weve been cleaning it up for four years. And we passed landmark legislation and 80. For next year. [interpreter] you did everything you could to kill the clean water acts and those grants to make it possible for state and local communities to clean up rivers and harbors and streams. And tramadol has a question for you mister Vice President. Mister Vice President , jimmy carter has called this the worst campaign. Ever Richard Nixon has called it trivial, superficial and inane. Whoever started down this road of negative campaigning the mark and people from all reports coming to us are completely fed up. Now do you have any solutions to . Suggest is their time left to fix it . There are 46 days left. For instance, would you agree to another debate before its all over so the American People, so that the American People will have another chance before election day to compare you to . I will not have another debate. We had 30 of them. We had seven of them. I carried this Election Debate over the last three weeks or whatever we have. That is no. I would not have anywhere debates. I feel that my position and in in terms of negative campaigning i dont want to sound like he had any schoolyard he started. It but take a look at the Democratic Convention. Take a look at it. The senator for boston chanted out there and the ridicule factor from that lady from texas that was on there. Come on that was just outrageous. I will try harder to keep it on a high plane. If you could accept a little criticism i want across central illinois, and spoke about agricultural issues, about seven stops. Had some fun. Krystal gayle, laura lynn with, us and they got up and saying and went to little towns, and i talked agricultural. And not one thing that i see with respect on your network about my views on agriculture, and not one did i read in any newspaper. Why . Because youre so interested in a poll that might have been coming. Out or because somebody had said something nasty about somebody else. And so i dont know the answer is. I dont. Somebody hit me and said Barry Goldwater said you ought to talk and issues. More how can be regoldwater sitting in arizona know their im talking on the issues or not when we put out position paper after position paper . He put that position paper after position people and we see this much about it because everyone else is faceted by pools, and whose upward down today and whos going to be upper down tomorrow. So think we can all share with respect in the fact that maybe the message is not getting out. Its not getting out because theyre too few debates. There will be no more debates. Governor dukakis, you have one minute to sponsor. I can understand after the Vice President ial debate why mr. Bush would want no more debates. Thats my five seconds. Andrea, i think we both have a responsibility to try to address the issue. Yes we are fundamental differences. I think a great many of them have come out today. And i think if we get rid of the labels and im not keeping count, but i think mr. Bush has used the legal liberal at least ten. Times if i had a dollar george, for every time you use that, level id qualify for one of those tax breaks for the rich you want to give away. Isnt that the point . Most americans believe in this values. We have differences about how to achieve. Them i want to move forward. I want this nation to move forward. Im concerned about the fact that 10 of our manufacturing and 20 of her backing and nearly half of realest in the city of los angeles are in the hands of foreign investors. Im concerned about with us to our. Future im concerned with the fact that so many of our securities are in the hands of foreign banks because of the massive deficits. But those are the issues on which we ought to be debating and if we could just governor. But away the flex electors and the balloons and those kinds of things and get on to a realization of the issues and i think will will talk about the real issue so lets turn something you said early about the modernization of land based missiles. You said that you didnt rule it out but there are limits to what we can spend. And then he went on to talk about a much more expensive part of our defensive strategy, namely conventional forces. Do you somehow see conventional forces as a substitute for our Strategic Forces . And not that you but the land based missiles and not committing to modernizing, do you somehow believe that we can have a survival bull Nuclear Force based on the air and sea legs are triad . I think we ought to be looking at modernization. I think we ought to be exploring less expensive ways to get it on land and we ought to make sure that we have an effective and strong clutter will nuclear deterrent. But we also need well equipped and well trained and well supported conventional forces. And every defense expert i know including people in the pentagon itself, will tell you that given the level of dispense, defense spending, and the level of defense appropriations which congress has now approved in the present has signed, there is no way that you can do all of these things and to them. Well thats why have choices will be required. Choices im prepared to. Make mr. Bush is not prepared to. Make but inter i think we can go far beyond this as well because we have opportunities now stepbystep to bring that the level of strategic weapons and get a Test Ban Treaty, negotiate those conventional force reductions. I would challenge mr. Gorbachev to join with us in limiting and eliminating regional conflict in the middle east, in central america. Lets get him working on syria, their client state, and see if we cant get them to join israel and other arab nations, if it all possible, and other arab leaders in finally bringing peace to the troubled region. And i think thats one reason why we need fresh leadership in the white house that can make progress now in bringing peace to the middle east. Lets go to work and and this fiasco in central america. A failed policy, which has actually increased cuban and soviet influence. The Democratic Leaders of central and latin america want to work with us. Ive met with them. I know them. Ive spent time in south america. I speak the language, so to senator benson. We want to work with them and build a new relationship and they with us. But not one of those key Democratic Leaders support our policy in central america. Weve got to work with them if were going to create an environment for human rights and democracy for the people in this hemisphere and go to work on our single most important problem, and that is the avalanche of drugs that is pouring into our country and virtually destroying those countries. So those are the kinds of priorities for National Security and Foreign Policy that i want to pursue. Mr. Bush and i have major differences on and i hope very much to be president and pursued them. Mister Vice President , you have one minute. In terms of regional tensions, we have now gotten the attention of the soviet union. The reason weve gotten it is because they see us now as unwilling to make the berry kinds of unilateral cuts that have been called for and to go for the discredited freeze. My opponent had trouble. Criticize us on our policy in angola. It now looks, because of steady negotiation, that we may have an agreement that will remove the cubans from angela. We see the russians coming out of afghanistan. That would not have stopped if we had not been willing. One tip even started, the cubans, the soviets wouldnt be coming out if we hadnt been willing to support the Freedom Fighters there. And the policy in central america, regrettably, has failed because the congress has been unwilling to support those who have been fighting for freedom. Those sand in east us came in and betrayed the trust of the revolution. They said it was about democracy and they have done nothing other than solidify their marxist marxist domination over that country. Ann compton for governor dukakis. Governor, Nuclear Weapons need Nuclear Material replenished on a regular basis. And just this week yet another Nuclear Manufacturing plant was close because of safety concerns. Some of the pentagon fear that too much priority has been put on new weapons programs, not enough on current programs, and where that the resulting shortages would be amounting to nothing less than unilateral nuclear disarmament. Is that a priority that you feel has been ignored by this administration, or are the pentagon officials making too much of it . Well, its a great concern of mine and i think of all americans. And perhaps the Vice President can tell us whats been going on. This is another example of misplaced priorities. An administration which wants to spend billions on Weapons Systems that we dont need and can afford. And it now confronts us with a very serious problem in plants that are supposed to be producing treating him and plutonium and providing the necessary materials for existing weapons. Yes, if we dont do something about it, we may find ourselves unilaterally, if i may use that term, dismantling some of these weapons. Whats been going on . Whos been in charge . It has been managing the system . Why have there been the safety violations . Why are these plants being closed down . I dont know whats the latest cost estimates are, but its going to be in the range of 25, 50, 75, 100 billion dollars. Now somebody has to bear the responsibility for this. Maybe the Vice President has an answer, but im somebody who believes very strongly in taking care of the fundamentals first before you start a new stuff. And thats something which will be a priority of ours in the new administration because, without it, we cannot have the effective and strong and Credible Nuclear Deterrent we must have. Mister Vice President , you have one minute. That is the closest ive ever heard the governor of massachusetts come to support anything having to do with nuclear. Thats about as close as ive ever heard him. Yes, this Savannah River plant needs to be made more safe. Will he join me in suggesting that we may need another point . Maybe in idaho, to take care of the requirements, Nuclear Material requirements, for our defense department. I hope he will. This sounds like Real Progress here because weve had a big difference on the safe use of Nuclear Power for our energy base. I believe that we must use clean, safe Nuclear Power. I believe that the more dependent weve become on foreign oil, the less our National Security is enhanced. And therefore, i made some proposals to strengthen the Domestic Oil Industry by more incentive going in to look for and find and produce oil. Some incentives in terms of secondary interest erie production, but were going to have to use more gas, more coal and more safe Nuclear Power for our energy base. So i am one who believes that we can and must do what hes talking about now. Mr. Vice president , ann compton has a question for you. Mister Vice President , as many as 100 officials in this administration have left the government under an ethical cloud. Some have been indicted, some convicted, many of the cases have involved undue influence once they are outside of government. If you become president , will you lock that revolving door that has allowed some men and women in the government to come back and lobby the very departments they once managed . Yeah, and ill apply to congress to. Ill do both. Ill do both. Because i think, you see, im one who i get kidded by being in a little oldfashioned on these things, but i do believe in public service. I believe that Public Services honorable. I dont think anybody has a call on people in their administrations going astray. His chief education adviser is in jail. Hes in jail because he betrayed the public trust. The head of education. And yet this man, the governor, equated the president to a rotting fish. He said that official routes from the head down as he was going after ed miss. Look, we need the highest possible ethical standards. I will have an Ethical Office in the white house that will be under the president s personal concern. I will see that the standard supply to the United States congress. I hope that i will do a good job, as one who has had a relatively clean record with no conflicts of interest in his public life, as has the governor, to exhort public young people to get into public service. But there is no corner on the sleaze factor. Its a disgrace and i will do my level best to clean it up. Recognizing that you cant legislate morality. But i do believe that with my record in congress, having led the ive got a good record. And there are more members of congress who have been under investigation percentage wise men people in the executive branch. So state governments have had a hard time. Some of his College President s arent exactly holier than thou. So lets not be throwing stones about it. Lets say this isnt democrat or republican, and it isnt a liberal or conservative, lets vowed to Work Together to do something about it. [applause] governor, you have one minute to respond. I would agree that integrity is not a republican or a democratic issue. Its an american issue. But here again, i dont know which george bush criminal listening to. Wasnt this in the mr. Bush that supported mr. . Supported mr. Meese . I called james watson excellent secretary of the interior. Provided support for some of these people, supported the nomination of robert borg to the Supreme Court of the United States . Weve had dozens and dozens of officials in this administration who have left under a cloud or who have left with a special prosecutor on their arm. Have been indicted or convicted. This is not the kind of administration that we need. One of our reasons our selection of a running mate is so important and is such a test of the kinds of standards well set is because it tells the American People, in advance of the election, just what kind of people we are looking for. I think lloyd bentsen. Mr. Bush picked then quayle. I think thats is a great deal to the American People about the standards we will set and the quality of the people that we will pick to serve in our administration. [applause] to each of you candidates, regrettably, i have to inform you that we have come to the end of our questions. Thats a pity. Before i ask the candidates to make their closing remarks, on behalf of the commission on president ial debates, i would like to thank all of you for joining us this evening. Governor dukakis, yours is the First Closing statement, sir. 28 years ago as a young man who graduated from law school, i came across this country to watch john kennedy be president of the nominated for president of the United States. I never dreamed that someday i would win that nomination and be my partys nominee for president. Thats america. Thats why im proud and grateful to be a citizen of this country. 26 days from today, you and millions of americans will choose to people to lead us into the future as president and Vice President of the United States. Our opponents say things are okay, dont rock the boat, not to worry. They say we should be satisfied, but i dont think we can be satisfied when we are spending 150 billion dollars a year on interest alone on the national debt, much of it going to foreign bankers. Were one 25 of our High School Students are dropping out of school or when we have two and a half million about fellow citizens, a third of them veterans, who are homeless and living on streets and indoor ways in this country. Or when mr. Bush is prescription for our Economic Future is another tax giveaway to the rich. We can do better than that. Not working with government alone, but all of us working together. Lloyd bentsen and i are optimists and so are the American People. We ask you for our for your hands and your hearts and your votes on the 8th of november so we can move forward into the future. Kitty and i are very grateful to all of you for the warmth and the hospitality that youve given to us in your homes and communities all across this country. We love you and we are grateful to you for everything that youve given to us. And we hope that we will be serving in the white house in january of 1989. Thank you and god bless you. [applause] Vice President bush, your closing statements, sir. Sometimes it does seem that a campaign generates more heat than light. So let me repeat, i do have respect for my opponent, for his family, for the justifiable pride he takes in his heritage. But we have enormous differences. I want to hold the line on taxes and keep this the longest expansion in modern history going until everybody in america benefits. I want to invest in our children because i mean it when i say i want a kinder and gentler nation. And by that i want to have child care where the families, the parents, have control. I want to keep our neighborhoods much, much better in terms of anti crime. And thats why i would appoint judges that have a little more sympathy for the victims of crime and a little less sympathy for the criminals. Thats why i do feel if some Police Officer is gunned down, that the Death Penalty is required. I want to help those with disabilities fit into the mainstream. There is much to be done. This election is about big things. And perhaps the biggest is world peace. And i ask you to consider the experience i have had in working with a president who has revolutionized the situation around the world. America stands tall again and as a result we are credible and we have now achieved a Historic Arms control agreement. I want to build on that. Id love to be able to save my grandchildren for years after my first term, id like to say your grandfather, working with the leaders of the soviet union, working with the leaders of europe, was able to ban chemical and biological weapons from the face of the earth. Lincoln called this country to last best hope of man on earth. And he was right then and we still are the last best hope of man on earth. And i ask for your support on november 8th and i will be a good president. Working together, we can do wonderful things for the United States and for the free world. Thank you very, very much. [applause],. This film is narrated by juan cassidy played by actor