Transcripts For CSPAN3 Presidential Debates 1980 Presidential Debate - Jimmy Carter Ronald... 20240712

Television provider. In the 1980 election president jimmy carter and former california governor Ronald Reagan debated once. The debate took place in cleveland, ohio, one week before election day. Good evening. Im ruth heiner falg of the league of Women Education fund. Next tuesday is election day. Before going to the polls voters want to understand the issues and know the candidates positions. Tonight, voters will have an opportunity to see and hear the Major Party Candidates for the presidency state their views on issues that affect us all. The league of women voters is proud to present this president ial debate. Our moderator is howard k. Smith. Thank you, mrs. Hownerfeld. The league of women voters is pleased to welcome to the cleveland, ohio, Convention Center music hall, president jimmy caterpillarer, the Democratic Partys candidate for reelection of the presidency and governor Ronald Reagan of california, the Republican Party candidate for the presidency. The candidates will debate questions on domestic, economic, Foreign Policy and National Security issues. The questions are going to be posed by a panel of distinguished journalists who are here with me. They are marvin stone, the editor of the u. S. News and world report. Harry ellis, National Correspondent of the Christian Science monitor, William Hilliard, assist and managing editor of the portland oregonian. Barbara walters, correspondent, abc news. The ground rules for this as agreed to by you gentlemen are these. Each panelist down here will ask a question, the same question to each of the two candidates. After the two candidates have answered, a panelist will ask followup questions to try to sharpen the answers. The candidates will then have an opportunity each to make a rebuttal. That will constitute the first half of the debate and i will state the rules for the second half later on. Some other rules the candidates are not permitted to bring prepared notes to the podium, but are permitted to make notes during the debate. If the candidates exceed the allotted time agreed on, i will reluctantly, but certainly interrupt. We ask the Convention Center audience here to abide by one ground rule. Please do not applaud or, press approval or disapproval during the debate. Based on the toss of the coin, governor reagan will respond to marvin stone. Governor, as you are well aware, the question of war and peace has emerged as the central issue of this campaign and the give and take of recent weeks governor carter has been criticized to responding late to insufficient buildup of armed forces and the paralysis of dealing with afghanistan and iran. You have been criticized for being all too quick to advocate the use of lots of muscle, military action to deal with foreign crises. Specifically, what are the differences between the two of you on the uses of American Military power . I dont know what the differences might be because i dont know what mr. Carters policies are. I do know what he has said about mine, and i am only here to tell you that i believe with all my heart that our First Priority must be world peace, and that use of force is always and only a last resort when Everything Else has failed, and then only with regard to our National Security. Now i believe also that this meeting this mission is responsibility for preserving the peace which i believe is a responsibility peculiar to our country, and we cannot shirk our responsibility as the leader of the free world because were the only one that can do it and therefore the burden of maintaining the peace falls on us and to maintain that peace requires strength. America has never gotten an award because we were too strong. We can get into a war by letting events get out of hand as they have in the last three and a half years under the foreign policies of this administration of mr. Carters, until we are faced each time with a crisis and Good Management in preserving the peace requires that we control the events and try to intercept before they become a crisis. I have seen four wars in my lifetime. Im a father of sons. I have a grandson. I dont ever want to see another generation of Young Americans bleed their lives into sandy beachheads in the pacific or rice patties and jungles in asia in the battlefields of europe. Mr. Stone, do you have a followup question for the governor . Governor, weve been, and associate yourself with cost of tens of dollars more than now. And the American People are willing to bear this cost and reconcile with your promise of substantial tax cuts and in this fiscal year when the standard ran more than 60 billion in the red . Mr. Stone, i have submitted an economic plan and with the fine economists in this country and believe that over a fi fiveyear projection the extra spending for needed refurbishing of our defensive posture that it can provide for a balanced budget by 1983, if not earlier, and that we can afford along with the cuts that i have proposed in Government Spending, we can afford the tax cuts i have proposed and probably, mainly because mr. Carters Economic Policy has built into the next five years and on beyond that, a tax increase that will be taking 86 billion more next year out of the peoples pockets than was taken this year and my tax cut does not come close to eliminating that 86 billion increase. I am only reducing the amount of the increase. In other words, what im talking about is not putting Government Back to put less money than the government is getting and simply cutting the increase in spending. The same question now goes to president carter. President carter, would you like to have the question repeated . Yes. President carter, the question of war and peace, a central issue in this campaign. Youve been criticized in the give and take for responding late to aggressive soviet impulses and for an insufficient buildup of our armed forces and a paralysis in dealing with afghanistan and e ran. Governor reagan, on the other hand, has been criticize for being all too quick for muscle and military action search as i mentioned. Specifically, what are the differences between the two of you on the uses of American Military power . Mr. Stone, ive had to make thousands of decisions since ive been president serving in the oval office and with each one of those decisions it would affect the future of my country, and i have learned in the process, i think im a much wiser and experienced man than i was when i debated four years ago against president ford. I also know there are no simple answers to complicated questions. H. L. Minkon said for every problem there is a simple answer, it would be neat and plausible and wrong. The fact is that this nation in the eight years before i became president had its own military strength decrease. Seven out of eight years the budget went down 37 in all. Since ive been in office weve had a study, carefully planned, methodical, but very effective increase in our commitment for defense, but what weve done is to use that enormous power and prestige and military strength of the United States to preserve the peace. Weve not only kept peace for our own country, but weve been able to extend the benefits of peace to others. In the middle east we worked for a peace treaty between israel and egypt successfully and have tied ourselves together with israel and egypt in the common defense capability. This is a very good step forwart for our nations security and well continue to do as weve done in the past. I might also add that there are decisions that are made in the oval office by every president which are profound in nature. There are always trouble spots in the world and how those troubled areas are addressed by a president alone in that oval office affects our nation directly. The involvement of the United States and also our american interests. That is a basic decision that has to be made so frequently by every president who serves. Thats what ive tried to do successfully by keeping our country at peace. Mr. Stone, do you have a follow up . Yes. I would like to be more specific on the use of military power and lets talk about one area for a moment. Under what circumstances would you use military forces to deal, for example, a shutoff of persian oil gulf if that were to occur or to counter a russian expansion into iran or pakistan. I ask this question in view of charges that we are willfully unprepared to have sustained, and i emphasize sustained power in that part of the world. Mr. Stone, in my state of the Union Address earlier this year i pointed out that any threat to the stability or security of the persian gulf would be a threat to the security of our own country. In the past weve not had an adequate military presence in that region. Now we have two Major Carrier task forces and we have access to facilities in five different areas of that region and weve made it clear that working with our allies and others that we are prepared to address any foreseeable eventuality which by commerce with that crucial area of the world, but in doing this, we have made sure that we address this question peacefully, not injecting American Military forces into combat, but letting the strength of our nation be filled in a beneficial way. This, i believe, has assured that our interests will be protected in the Persian Gulf Region as weve done in the middle east and throughout the world. Governor reagan, you have a minute to comment or rebutt. Yes. I question the figure about the decline in the defense spending under the previous two administrations. I will recall to your attention we were in a war during those eight years which of course, made a change in military spending because of turning from war to peace. I also would like to point out that republican president s in those years faced with the democratic majority in both houses of the Congress Found that their request for Defense Budgets were very often cut. Now gerald ford left a fiveyear projected plan for a military buildup to restore our defenses and president carters administration reduced that by 38 , cut 60 ships out of the Navy Building program that had been proposed and stopped the b1, delayed the Cruise Missile and stopped the production line for the minuteman missile ask delayed the Trident Submarine and now is planning a mobile military force that can be delivered to various spots in the world which does make me question his assaults on whether i am the one that is quick to use force. President carter you have the last answer on this question. One is to control Nuclear Weapons which i hope to get to earlier on because thats the most important single issue in this campaign. Another is how to address troubled areas of the world. I think habitually, governor reagan has injected it into troubled areas when i and my predecessors both democrats and republicans have advocated resolving those troubles in those difficult areas of the world peacefully, diplomatically and through negotiation. In addition to that, the buildup of military forces is good for our country because weve got to have military strength in order to preserve the peace, but ill always remember that the best weapons are the ones that are never fired in combat and the best soldier is one who never has to lay his life down on the field of battle. Strength is imperative for peace, but the two must go hand in hand. Thank you, gentlemen. The next question is from harry ellis to president carter. Mr. President , when you were elected in 1976 the consumerprice index stood at 4. 8 . It now stands at more than 12 . Perhaps more significantly, the nations broader underlying inflation rate has gone up from 7 to 9 . Now a part of that was due to external factors beyond u. S. Control, notably, the more than doubling of oil prices by opec last year. Because the United States remains vulnerable to such external shocks can inflation, in fact, be controlled . If so, what measures would you pursue in a second term . Again, its important to put the situation into perspective. In 1974 we had a socalled oil shock wherein the price of opec oil was raised to an extraordinary degree. We had an even worse oil shock in 1979. In 1974 we had the worst recession, the deepest and most penetrating recession since the Second World War and the recession that resulted this time was the briefest weve had since the Second World War. In addition, weve brought down inflation. Early this year in the First Quarter we did have a very severe inflation pressure brought about by the opec price increase. It averaged about 18 the First Quarter of this year. The Second Quarter we had dropped it down to 13 . The most recent figures, the last three months or the Third Quarter of this year, the inflation rate is 7 . Still too high, but it illustrates very vividly that in addition to providing an enormous number of job, 9 million new jobs in the last three and a half years that the inflationary threat is still urgent on us. I noticed that governor reagan said the reagan kemp, ross proposal which was his own runningmate as voodoo economics and said that it would result in a 30 inflation rate and businesswoke which is not a democratic publication said that this Reagan Kemp Ross proposal was completely irresponsible with inflationary pressures which would destroy this nation. Our from polls are very sound and carefully considered to stimulate ons and to create two for American Workers and at the same time would be antiinflationary in nature. To add 9 million new jobs and to plan for the future with the Energy Policy now intact as a foundation is our plan for the years ahead. Mr. Ellis, do you have a followup question for mr. Carter . Yes. Mr. Carter, you mentioned the creation of 9 million new jobs and at the same time the Unemployment Rate still hangs high as does the inflation rate. Now i wonder, can you tell us what additional policies you would pursue in a Second Administration in order to try to bring down that inflation rate and would it be an act of leadership to tell the American People they are going to have to sacrifice to adopt a leaner lifestyle for some time to come . Yes. We have demanded that the American People sacrifice and theyve done very well. We are imforting onethird less oil than a year ago. Weve had a 25 reduction since the first year i was in office. At the same time, as i said earlier, we have added about 9 million net new jobs in that period of time, a record never before achieved. Also the new Energy Policy has been predicated on two factors. One, conservation which requires sacrifice and the other increase in production of American Energy which has gotten along this well and more oil and gas this year than ever before in history. The new economic reviet looization program which will result in a tax credit that would let someone invest and to create more jobs in the haft few years. We want an employment program, which would have 6 hun,000 yrs for young people and it had can pass. Governor reagan, would you like to have the question repeated . Governor reagan, during the past four years the consumerprice index has risen from 4. 8 to currently over 12 and perhaps more significantly, the nations broader underlying rate of inflation has gone up from 7 to 9 . Now a part of that has been due to external factors past your control does doubling the Oil Prices Last year which leads me to ask you whether since the United States remains vulnerable to such external shocks can inflation, in fact, be controlled . If so, specifically, what measures would you pursue . Mr. Ellis, i think this idea that has been spawned here in our country that inflation somehow came upon us like a plague and therefore its uncontrollable and nobody can do anything it is dangerous to say this to the people. Inflation was 8 and it had been cut in two by president gerald ford and it is now running at 12. 7 . President carter also has spoken of the new jobs created, with always, with the normal growth in the country and increase of population increase the number of jobs and that cant hide the fact that there are 8 million of those lost their jobs in just the last few months. It also promised that he would not use unemployment as a fight to, and we would ri deuce productivity and Gross Domestic Product and increase unemployment in order to get a handle on inflation because in january in the beginning of the year it was more than 18 . Since then he has blamed to the people in opec and hes blamed the Federal Reserve system. He has blamed the lack of productivity and the American People and he has a duszed People Living too well. We mustable sacrifice, we have inflagz because the government is living too kell and the statement was to the effect, we have inflation that government revenues have not kept pace with Government Spending. I see my time is running out. Ill have to get it down fast. Yes, you can lick inflation by increasing productivity and by increasing the cost of government to the place that we have balanced budgets and are no longer grinding out Printing Press money, flooding the market with it because the government is spending more than it takes in and my economic plan calls for that. The president s economic plan calls for increasing the taxes to the point that we finally take so much money away from the people that we can balance the budget in that way, but well have a very poor nation and a very unsound that economy if we follow that pass. Yeses are you have talked about Government Spending about your own policy. Aweio aulsdz i would increase defense spending. Specifically, where would you cut other stenting so that presumably federal revenues would shrink . Well, most people when they think of cutting Government Spending they think in terms of eliminating necessary programs or wiping out something, some service that government is supposed to perform. I believe that there is enough extravagance in government. As a matter of fact, one of the secretaries of hew under mr. Carter testified that he thought there was 7 billion worth of fraud and waste in welfare and in the medical programs associated with it. Weve had the General Accounting Office estimate that there is probably tens of billions of dollars that is lost in fraud alone and adds that waste is even more than that for the graduate reduction of Government Spending and i have a task force now working on where those cuts could be made. I am confident that it can be done and that it will reduce inflation because i did it in california and inflation went down below the National Average in california when we returned money to the people and reduced Government Spending. President carter . The reagan proposal is one of the most highly inflationary ideas that ever has been presented to the american public. He would actually have to cut Government Spending by at least 130 billion in order to balance the budget under this ridiculous proposal. I noticed that his task force is working for his future plans had some of the ideas revealed in the wall street journal this week. One of those ideas was to repeal the minimum wage and several times this year governor reagan has said that the major cause of unemployment is the minimum wage. This is a heartless approach to the working families of the country which is typical of Many Republican leaders in the past, but i think its been accentuated under governor reagan. In california, im surprised governor reagan brought this up. He had the three largest tax increases in the history of that state under his administration. He per than doubled state spending while he was governor. 122 increase and had between a 20 to 30 increase in the number of employees sorry to interrupt. Thank you, sir. Governor reagan has the last word on this question. Yes. The figures that the president has just used about california is a distortion of the situation there because while i was governor of california our spending in california increased less per capita than the spending in georgia while mr. Carter was governor of georgia in the same four years. The size of government increased only 1 6 in california of what it increased in proportion to population in georgia, and the idea that my tax cut proposal is inflationary i would like to ask the president why is it inflationary to let the people keep more of their money and spend it the way theyd like and it isnt inflationary to let him take that money and spend it the way he wants . I wish that question need not be rhetorical, but it needs to be because weve run out of time on that. Now the third question to governor reagan from William Hilliard . Yes, governor reagan, the decline of our cities has been hastened by the continual rise in crime. Strained Race Relations and the fall of, and the poverty and the rich nation and the decline to the services to the public. The signs seem to point toward a deterioration that could lead to the establishment of a permanent under class inner cities. What specifically would you do in the next four years to reverse this trend . I have been talking to a number of congressmen who have much the same idea that i have, and that is that in the inner city areas that in cooperation with local government and with National Government and with using tax incentives and in cooperation with the private sector that we have development zones. Let the local entity, declare this particular area and based on the percentage of people on welfare, unemployed and so forth in that area and then through tax inventives induce with the businesses providing jobs. In those areas. The elements of government that they would have not in the period of them reflecting it, it wouldnt get any loss from the city because theyre not getting that now. It would simply be a delay and on the other hand, many of the people that were given jobs are present leewards of the government and it it wouldnt hurt them to give them a tax inis nottive becaui incentive because that wouldnt be costing govern the anything either. I stood on the south bronx on the exact spot that president carter stood on in 1977. Youd have to see it to believe it. It looks like a bombedout city. Skeletons of buildings, windows slashed out and painted on one of them upon unkept promises on another and despair. That was the spot at which president carter had promised that he was going to bring in a vast program to rebuild this department there are whole blocks of land just bare and dull boaz dozed down, and theyre now taking chefr churches to tli say do i have treen hop that i can one day take care of my family again. Followup, mr. Hilliard . Yes. Blacks and whites are increasing in numbers in the cities. Many are feeling hostility from white that prevents them from joining the check mainstream of our society. Theres racial confrontation in the schools on jobs and in housing as nonwhites seek to reap the benefits of a free society. What do you think is the nations future as a Multiracial Society . I believe in it. I am eternally optimistic and i happen to believe that weve made great progress from the days when i was young and when this country didnt even know it had a racial problem. I know those things can grow out of despair and in an inner city when theres hopelessness at home, lack of work and so forth, but i believe that all of us together and i believe the presidency is what Teddy Roosevelt said it was. Its a bully pulpit and i think that something can be done from there because the goal for all of us should be that one day things will be done of not in spite of or despite of, racial difference e whatever they may be that we will have total, equal opportunity for all people, and i would do everything i could in my power to bring that about. Mr. Hilliard, would are you repeat your question for president carter . President carter, the decline of our cities has been hastened by the continual rise in crime, strained Race Relations befalling the quality of Public Education and the persistence of abnormal poverty in a rich nation and a decline in services to the public. The signs seem to point toward a deterioration that could lead to the establishment of the permanent underclass in the cities. What specifically would you do in the next four years to reverse this trend . Thank you, mr. Hilliard. When i was campaigning in 1976, everywhere i went the mayors and local officials were in despair. About the rapidly deteriorating the nation, we had a very fine, urban renewable program, working with the mayors, governors and other interested officials and this has been a very successful effort and thats one of the main reasons why weve had the increase of the people employed and of the 9 Million People, 1. 3 million of those has been among black americans and another million among those who speak spanish. We are now planning to continue the revitalization program with increased commitments of rapid transit, mass transit, and we expect to spend 3 billion in the next ten years to rebuild the Transportation Systems of our country. Education, and these are the kinds of efforts worked on the joint basis with community leaders, particularly in the minority areas of essential cities that have been deteriorating so rapidly in the past. It is very important to us that this be done with the full involvement of minority citizens. I brought into this top levels of government into the white house and to Administrative Offices and the highly qualified, black men and women who in the past have been excluded. I noticed that governor reagan said when he was a young are man that there was no knowledge of a racial problem in his country. Those who suffered from discrimination because of race or sex certainly knew we had a racial problem. We have gone a long way toward correcting these problem, but we still have a long way to go. Followup question . Yes. President carter, i would like to repeat the same followup to you. Blacks and other nonwhites are increasing in numbers in our cities and many feel theyre fasing hostility from whites that prevent them from joining the economic mainstream in our society. Theres racial confrontation as nonwhites seek to reap the benefits of a free society. What is your assessment of the nation as a future and multiracia Multiracial Society . Our nation offers refugees, a nation of immigrants and almost all of our citizens came here from other lands and now have hopes that are being realized for a better life, preserving their ethnic commitments and Family Structures and religious beliefs. Preserving their relationships with their relatives and foreign countries, but still forming themselves together in a very coherent society which gives our nation its strength. In the past those minority groups have often been excused from participation in the affairs of government. Since ive been president ive appointed, for instance, more than twice as many black, federal judges as all previous president s in the history of this country. Ive done the same thing in the appointment of women and also spanishspeaking americans to involve them in the government and the feeling that they belong with the societal structure that makes decisions and the executive branch is a very important teenagers who were black and were telling me about their unemployment problems and that it was the minimum wage that had done away with the jobs that they once could get and indeed, every time it is increased you will find that there is an increase in minority unemployment among young people and therefore, i have been in favor of a separate minimum for them. With regard to the great progress that has been made with the Government Spending, the rate of black unemployment in detroit, michigan, is 66 . President carter, you have the last word on this question. Well, its obvious that we still have a long way to go and fully incorporating minority groups into the mainstream of american life. We have made Good Progress and no doubt in my mind that the minimum wage, welfare, National Health insurance and those kinds of commitments that have typified the Democratic Party since ancient history in this countrys political life are a very important element of the future. In all those elements governor reagan has repeatedly spoken out against them which to me shows a great insensitivity to giving to prior families a better chance in life. This, to me, is a very important difference between him and me in this election, and i believe the American People will judge accordingly. There is no doubt that in my mind in the Downtown Central cities with a new commitment on an Energy Policy and the chance to revitalize forms and to make it fuel programs, solar power. This will give you an dividends of jobs. Now for the question to president carter from barbara walters. Mr. President , the eyes of the country are on the hostages of the land. The question to how we respond to terrorism goes beyond this crisis. Other countries have policies that determine how they will respond. Israel considers hostages like soldiers and will not negotiate with terrorists. For the future, mr. President , the country has a right to know do you have a policy for dealing with terrorism wherever it might happen and what have we learned from this experience in iran that might cause us to do things differently if this or something similar happens again . Barbara, one of the blights on this world is the threat and the activities of terrorists. At one of the recent economic summit conferences between myself and the other leaders of the western world, we committed ourselves to take strong action against terrorism. Airplane hijacking was one of the elements of that commitment. There is no doubt that we have seen in recent years in recent months additional acts of violence against jews in france and, of course, against those who live in israel, by the plo and other terrorist organizations. Ultimately, the most serious terrorist threat is if one of those radical nations, who believe in terrorism as a policy, should have atomic weapons. Both i and all my predecessors have had a deep commitment to controlling the proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. In countries like libya or iraq, we have even alienated some of our closest trade partners because we have insisted upon the control of the spread of Nuclear Weapons to those potentially terrorist countries. When governor reagan has been asked about that, he makes the very disturbing comment that nonproliferation, or the control of the spread of Nuclear Weapons, is none of our business. And recently when he was asked specifically about iraq, he said there is nothing we can do about it. This ultimate terrorist threat is the most fearsome of all, and its part of a pattern where our country Must Stand Firm to control terrorism of all kinds. Ms. Walters, a follow up . While we are discussing policy, had iran not taken american hostages. I assume that, in order to preserve our neutrality, we would have stopped the flow of spare parts and vital war materials once war broke out between iraq and iran. Now were offering to lift the ban on such goods if they let our people come home. Doesnt this reward terrorism, compromise our neutrality, and possibly antagonize nations now friendly to us in the middle east . We will maintain our position of neutrality in the iran and iraq war. We have no plans to sell additional materiel or goods to iran, that might be of a warlike nature. When i made my decision to stop all trade with iran as a result of the taking of our hostages, i announced then, and have consistently maintained since then, that if the hostages are released safely, we would make delivery on those items which iran owns which they have bought and paid for also, that the frozen iranian assets would be released. Thats been a consistent policy, one i intend to carry out. Would you repeat the question now for governor reagan, please, ms. Walters . Yes. Governor, the eyes of the country tonight remain on the hostages in iran, but the question of how we respond to acts of terrorism goes beyond this current crisis. There are other countries that have policies that determine how they will respond. Israel, for example, considers hostages like soldiers and will not negotiate with terrorists. For the future, the country has the right to know, do you have a policy for dealing with terrorism wherever it might happen, and what have we learned from this experience in iran that might cause us to do things differently if this, or something similar, should happen again . Barbara, youve asked that question twice. I think you ought to have at least one answer to it. I have been accused lately of having a secret plan with regard to the hostages. Now, this comes from an answer that ive made at least 50 times during this campaign to the press, when i am asked have you any ideas of what you would do if you were there . And i said, well, yes. And i think that anyone thats seeking this position, as well as other people, probably, have thought to themselves, what about this, what about that . These are just ideas of what i would think of if i were in that position and had access to the information, and which i would know all the options that were open to me. I have never answered the question, however, second, the one that says, well, tell me, what are some of those ideas . First of all, i would be fearful that i might Say Something that was presently under way or in negotiations, and thus expose it and endanger the hostages, and sometimes, i think some of my ideas might require quiet diplomacy where you dont say in advance, or say to anyone, what it is youre thinking of doing. Your question is difficult to answer, because, in the situation right now, no one wants to say anything that would inadvertently delay, in any way, the return of those hostages if there if there is a chance that theyre coming home soon, or that might cause them harm. What i do think should be done, once they are safely here with their families, and that tragedy is over weve endured this humiliation for just lacking one week of a year now then, i think, it is time for us to have a complete investigation as to the diplomatic efforts that were made in the beginning, why they have been there so long, and when they come home, what did we have to do in order to bring that about what arrangements were made . And i would suggest that congress should hold such an investigation. In the meantime, im going to continue praying that theyll come home. Follow up question. I would like to say that neither candidate answered specifically the question of a specific policy for dealing with terrorism, but i will ask governor reagan a different followup question. You have suggested that there would be no iranian crisis had you been president , because we would have given firmer support to the shah. But iran is a country of 37 Million People who are resisting a government that they regarded as dictatorial. My question is not whether the shahs regime was preferable to the ayatollahs, but whether the United States has the power or the right to try to determine what form of government any country will have, and do we back unpopular regimes whose major merit is that they are friendly to the United States . The degree of unpopularity of a regime when the choice is total authoritarianism totalitarianism, i should say, in the alternative government, makes one wonder whether you are being helpful to the people. And weve been guilty of that. Because someone didnt meet exactly our standards of human rights, even though they were an ally of ours, instead of trying patiently to persuade them to change their ways, we have, in a number of instances, aided a revolutionary overthrow which results in complete totalitarianism, instead, for those people. I think that this is a kind of a hypocritical policy when, at the same time, were maintaining a detente with the one nation in the world where there are no human rights at all the soviet union. Now, there was a second phase in the iranian affair in which we had something to do with that. And that was, we had adequate warning that there was a threat to our embassy, and we could have done what other embassies did either strengthen our security there, or remove our personnel before the kidnap and the takeover took place. Governor, im sorry, i must interrupt. President carter, you have a minute for rebuttal. I didnt hear any comment from governor reagan about what he would do to stop or reduce terrorism in the future. What the western allies did decide to do is to stop all air flights commercial air flights to any nation involved in terrorism or the hijacking of air planes, or the harboring of hijackers. Secondly, we all committed ourselves, as have all my predecessors in the oval office not to permit the spread of Nuclear Weapons to a terrorist nation, or to any other nation that does not presently have those weapons or capabilities for explosives. Third, not to make any sales of materiel or weapons to a nation which is involved in terrorist activities. And, lastly, not to deal with the plo until and unless the plo recognizes israels right to exist and recognizes Un Resolution 242 as a basis for middle east peace. These are a few of the things to which our nation is committed, and we will continue with these commitments. Governor reagan, you have the last word on that question. Yes. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the things that have been done, because i believe it is high time that the civilized countries of the world made it plain that there is no room worldwide for terrorism, there will be no negotiation with terrorists of any kind. And while i have a last word here, i would like to correct a misstatement of fact by the president. I have never made the statement that he suggested about Nuclear Proliferation and Nuclear Proliferation, or the trying to halt it, would be a major part of a Foreign Policy of mine. Thank you, gentlemen. That is the first half of the debate. Now, the rules for the second half are quite simple. Theyre only complicated when i explain them. In the second half, the panelists with me will have no followup questions. Instead, after the panelists have asked a question, and the candidates have answered, each of the candidates will have two opportunities to follow up, to question, to rebut, or just to comment on his opponents statement. Governor reagan will respond, in this section, to the first question from marvin stone. Governor reagan arms control, the president said it was the single most important issue. Both of you have expressed the desire to end the Nuclear Arms Race with russia, but by methods that are vastly different. You suggest that we scrap the salt ii treaty already negotiated, and intensify the buildup of American Power to induce the soviets to sign a new treaty one more favorable to us. President carter, on the other hand, says he will again try to convince a reluctant congress to ratify the present treaty on the grounds its the best we can hope to get. Now, both of you cannot be right. Will you tell us why you think you are . Yes. I think im right because i believe that we must have a consistent Foreign Policy, a strong america, and a strong economy. And then, as we build up our National Security, to restore our margin of safety, we at the same time try to restrain the soviet buildup, which has been Going Forward at a rapid pace, and for quite some time. The salt ii treaty was the result of negotiations that mr. Carters team entered into after he had asked the soviet union for a discussion of actual reduction of nuclear strategic weapons. And his emissary, i think, came home in 12 hours having heard a very definite nyet. But taking that one no from the soviet union, we then went back into negotiations on their terms, because mr. Carter had canceled the b1 bomber, delayed the mx, delayed the Trident Submarine, delayed the Cruise Missile, shut down the missile man the three the minuteman missile production line, and whatever other things that might have been done. The soviet union sat at the table knowing that we had gone forward with unilateral concessions without any reciprocation from them whatsoever. Now, i have not blocked the salt ii treaty, as mr. Carter and mr. Mondale suggest i have. It has been blocked by a senate in which there is a democratic majority. Indeed, the Senate Armed Services committee voted 100, with seven abstentions, against the salt ii treaty, and declared that it was not in the National Security interests of the United States. Besides which, it is illegal, because the law of the land, passed by congress, says that we cannot accept a treaty in which we are not equal. And we are not equal in this treaty for one reason alone our b2 bombers are considered to be strategic weapons, their backfire bombers are not. Governor, i have to interrupt you at that point. The time is up for that. But the same question now to president carter. Yes. President carter, both of you have expressed the desire to end the Nuclear Arms Race with russia, but through vastly different methods. The governor suggests we scrap the salt ii treaty which you negotiated in vienna or signed in vienna, intensify the buildup of American Power to induce the soviets to sign a new treaty, one more favorable to us. You, on the other hand, say you will again try to convince a reluctant congress to ratify the present treaty on the grounds it is the best we can hope to get from the russians. You cannot both be right. Will you tell us why you think you are . Yes, id be glad to. Inflation, unemployment. The cities are all very important issues, but they pale into insignificance in the life and duties of a president when compared with the control of Nuclear Weapons. Every president who has served in the oval office since harry truman has been dedicated to the proposition of controlling Nuclear Weapons. To negotiate with the soviet union a balanced, controlled, observable, and then reducing levels of atomic weaponry, there is a disturbing pattern in the attitude of governor reagan. He has never supported any of those arms control agreements the limited test ban, salt i, nor the antiballistic missile treaty, nor the vladivostok treaty negotiated with the soviet union by president ford and now he wants to throw into the wastebasket a treaty to control Nuclear Weapons on a balanced and equal basis between ourselves and the soviet union, negotiated over a sevenyear period, by myself and my two republican predecessors. The senate has not voted yet on the strategic arms limitation treaty. There have been preliminary skirmishing in the committees of the senate, but the treaty has never come to the floor of the senate for either a debate or a vote. Its understandable that a senator in the preliminary debates can make an irresponsible statement, or, maybe, an illadvised statement. Youve got 99 other senators to correct that mistake, if it is a mistake. But when a man who hopes to be president says, take this treaty, discard it, do not vote, do not debate, do not explore the issues, do not finally capitalize on this long negotiation that is a very dangerous and disturbing thing. Governor reagan, you have an opportunity to rebut that. Yes, id like to respond very much. First of all, the soviet union if i have been critical of some of the previous agreements, its because weve been outnegotiated for quite a long time. And they have managed, in spite of all of our attempts at arms limitation, to go forward with the biggest military buildup in the history of man. Now, to suggest that because two republican president s tried to pass the salt treaty that puts them on its side i would like to say that president ford, who was within 90 of a treaty that we could be in agreement with when he left office, is emphatically against this salt treaty. I would like to point out also that senators like Henry Jackson and hollings of South Carolina they are taking the lead in the fight against this particular treaty. I am not talking of scrapping. I am talking of taking the treaty back, and going back into negotiations. And i would say to the soviet union, we will sit and negotiate with you as long as it takes, to have not only legitimate arms limitation, but to have a reduction of these Nuclear Weapons to the point that neither one of us represents a threat to the other. That is hardly throwing away a treaty and being opposed to arms limitation. President carter . Yes. Governor reagan is making some very misleading and disturbing statements. He not only advocates the scrapping of this treaty and i dont know that these men that he quotes are against the treaty in its final form but he also advocates the possibility, he said its been a missing element, of playing a trump card against the soviet union of a Nuclear Arms Race, and is insisting upon Nuclear Superiority by our own nation, as a predication for negotiation in the future with the soviet union. If president brezhnev said, we will scrap this treaty, negotiated under three american president s over a sevenyear period of time, we insist upon Nuclear Superiority as a basis for future negotiations, and we believe that the launching of a Nuclear Arms Race is a good basis for future negotiations, its obvious that i, as president , and all americans, would reject such a proposition. This would mean the resumption of a very dangerous Nuclear Arms Race. It would be very disturbing to American People. It would change the basic tone and commitment that our nation has experienced ever since the Second World War, with all president s, democratic and republican. And it would also be very disturbing to our allies, all of whom support this nuclear arms treaty. In addition to that, the adversarial relationship between ourselves and the soviet union would undoubtedly deteriorate very rapidly. This attitude is extremely dangerous and belligerent in its tone, although its said with a quiet voice. Governor reagan . I know the president s supposed to be replying to me, but sometimes, i have a hard time in connecting what hes saying, with what i have said or what my positions are. I sometimes think hes like the witch doctor that gets mad when a good doctor comes along with a cure thatll work. My point i have made already, mr. President , with regard to negotiating, it does not call for Nuclear Superiority on the part of the United States. It calls for a mutual reduction of these weapons, as i say, that neither of us can represent a threat to the other. And to suggest that the salt ii treaty that your negotiators negotiated was just a continuation, and based on all of the preceding efforts by two previous president s, is just not true. It was a new negotiation because, as i say, president ford was within about 10 of having a solution that could be acceptable. And i think our allies would be very happy to go along with a fair and verifiable salt agreement. President carter, you have the last word on this question. I think, to close out this discussion, it would be better to put into perspective what were talking about. I had a discussion with my daughter, amy, the other day, before i came here, to ask her what the most important issue was. She said she thought Nuclear Weaponry and the control of nuclear arms. This is a formidable force. Some of these weapons have 10 megatons of explosion. If you put 50 tons of tnt in each one of railroad cars, you would have a carload of tnt a trainload of tnt stretching across this nation. Thats one major war explosion in a warhead. We have thousands, equivalent of megaton, or million tons, of tnt warheads. The control of these weapons is the single major responsibility of a president , and to cast out this commitment of all president s, because of some slight technicalities that can be corrected, is a very dangerous approach. We have to go to another question now, from harry ellis to president carter. Mr. President , as you have said, americans, through conservation, are importing much less oil today than we were even a year ago. Yet u. S. Dependence on arab oil as a percentage of total imports is today much higher than it was at the time of the 1973 arab oil embargo, and for some time to came, the loss of substantial amounts of arab oil could plunge the u. S. Into depression. This means that a bridge must be built out of this dependence. Can the United States develop Synthetic Fuels and other alternative Energy Sources without damage to the environment, and will this process mean steadily higher fuel bills for American Families . I dont think theres any doubt that, in the future, the cost of oil is going to go up. What ive had as a basic commitment since ive been president is to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. It can only be done in two ways, one, to conserve energy to stop the waste of energy and, secondly, to produce more American Energy. Weve been very successful in both cases. Weve now reduced the importing of foreign oil in the last year alone by onethird. We imported today 2 Million Barrels of oil less than we did the same date just a year ago. This commitment has been opening up a very bright vista for our nation in the future, because with the windfall profits tax as a base, we now have an opportunity to use American Technology and american ability and American Natural Resources to expand rapidly the production of Synthetic Fuels, yes, to expand rapidly the production of solar energy, yes, and also to produce the traditional kinds of American Energy. We will drill more oil and gas wells this year than any year in history. Well produce more coal this year than any year in history. We are exporting more coal this year than any year in history. And we have an opportunity now with improved Transportation Systems and improved loading facilities in our ports, to see a very Good Opportunity on a World International market, to replace opec oil with american coal as a basic energy source. This exciting future will not only give us more energy security, but will also open up vast opportunities for americans to live a better life and to have millions of new Jobs Associated with this new and very dynamic industry now in prospect because of the new Energy Policy that weve put into effect. Would you repeat the question now for governor reagan . Governor reagan, americans, through conservation, are importing much less oil today than we were even a year ago. And yet, u. S. Reliance on arab oil as a percentage of total imports is much higher today than it was during the 1973 arab oil embargo. And the substantial loss of arab oil could plunge the United States into depression. The question is whether the development of alternative Energy Sources, in order to reduce this dependence, can be done without damaging the environment, and will it mean for American Families steadily higher fuel bills . Im not so sure that it means steadily higher fuel costs, but i do believe that this nation has been portrayed for too long a time to the people as being energypoor when it is energyrich. The coal that the president mentioned yes, we have it and yet oneeighth of our total Coal Resources is not being utilized at all right now. The mines are closed down, there are 22,000 miners out of work. Most of this is due to regulations which either interfere with the mining of it or prevent the burning of it. With our modern technology, yes, we can burn our coal within the limits of the clean air act. I think, as technology improves, well be able to do even better with that. The other thing is that we have only leased out begun to explore 2 of our outer Continental Shelf for oil, where it is believed, by everyone familiar with that fuel and that source of energy, that there are vast supplies yet to be found. Our government has, in the last year or so, taken out of multiple use millions of acres of public lands that once were well, they were public lands subject to multiple use exploration for minerals and so forth. It is believed that probably 70 of the potential oil in the United States is probably hidden in those lands, and no one is allowed to even go and explore to find out if it is there. This is particularly true of the recent efforts to shut down part of alaska. Nuclear power, there were 36 power plants planned in this country. And let me add the word safety, it must be done with the utmost of safety. But 32 of those have given up and canceled their plans to build, and again, because government regulations and permits, and so forth, take make it take more than twice as long to build a Nuclear Plant in the United States as it does to build one in japan or in western europe. We have the sources here. We are energy rich, and coal is one of the great potentials we have. President carter, your comment . To repeat myself, we have this year the opportunity, which well realize, to produce 800 million tons of coal an unequaled record in the history of our country. Governor reagan says that this is not a good achievement, and he blames restraints on Coal Production on regulations regulations that affect the life and the health and safety of miners, and also regulations that protect the purity of our air and the quality our water and our land. We cannot cast aside these regulations. We have a chance in the next 15 years, insisting upon the health and safety of workers in the mines, and also preserving the same high air and Water Pollution standards, to triple the amount of coal we produce. Governor reagans approach to our Energy Policy, which has already proven its effectiveness, is to repeal, or to change substantially, the windfall profits tax to return a major portion of 227 billion back to the oil companies, to do away with the department of energy, to shortcircuit our Synthetic Fuels program, to put a minimal emphasis on solar power, to emphasize strongly Nuclear Power plants as a major source of energy in the future. He wants to put all our eggs in one basket and give that basket to the major oil companies. Governor reagan. That is a misstatement, of course, of my position. I just happen to believe that Free Enterprise can do a better job of producing the things that people need than government can. The department of energy has a multibilliondollar budget in excess of 10 billion. It hasnt produced a quart of oil or a lump of coal, or anything else in the line of energy. And for mr. Carter to suggest that i want to do away with the safety laws and with the laws that pertain to clean water and clean air, and so forth. As governor of california, i took charge of passing the strictest air pollution laws in the United States the strictest air quality law that has even been adopted in the United States. And we created an osha an Occupational Safety and Health Agency for the protection of employees before the federal government had one in place. And to this day, not one of its decisions or rulings has ever been challenged. So, i think some of those charges are missing the point. I am suggesting that there are literally thousands of unnecessary regulations that invade every facet of business, and indeed, very much of our personal lives, that are unnecessary, that government can do without, that have added 130 billion to the cost of production in this country, and that are contributing their part to inflation. And i would like to see us a little more free, as we once were. President carter, another crack at that . Sure. As a matter of fact, the air pollution standard laws that were passed in california were passed over the objections of governor reagan, and this is a very wellknown fact. Also, recently, when someone suggested that the Occupational Safety and health act should be abolished, governor reagan responded, amen. The offshore drilling rights is a question that governor reagan raises often. As a matter of fact, in the proposal for the alaska lands legislation, 100 of all the offshore lands would be open for exploration, and 95 of all the alaska lands, where it is suspected or believed that minerals might exist. We have, with our fiveyear plan for the leasing of offshore lands, proposed more land to be drilled than has been opened up for drilling since this Program First started in 1954. So were not putting restraints on american exploration, were encouraging it in every way we can. Governor reagan, you have the last word on this question. Yes. If it is a wellknown fact that i opposed air pollution laws in california, the only thing i can possibly think of is that the president must be suggesting the law that the federal government tried to impose on the state of california not a law, but regulations that would have made it impossible to drive an automobile within the city limits of any california city, or to have a place to put it if you did drive it against their regulations. It would have destroyed the economy of california, and, i must say, we had the support of congress when we pointed out how ridiculous this attempt was by the Environmental Protection agency. We still have the strictest air control, or air pollution laws in the country. As for offshore oiling, only 2 now is so leased and is producing oil. The rest, as to whether the lands are going to be opened in the next five years or so were already five years behind in what we should be doing. There is more oil now, in the wells that have been drilled, than has been taken out in 121 years that theyve been drilled. Thank you, governor. Thank you, mr. President. The next question goes to governor reagan from William Hilliard. Governor reagan, wage earners in this country especially the young are supporting a Social Security system that continues to affect their income drastically. The system is fostering a struggle between the young and the old, and is drifting the country toward a polarization of these two groups. How much longer can the young wage earner expect to bear the everincreasing burden of the Social Security system . The Social Security system was based on a false premise, with regard to how fast the number of workers would increase and how fast the number of retirees would increase. It is actuarially out of balance, and this first became evident about 16 years ago, and some of us were voicing warnings then. Now, it is trillions of dollars out of balance, and the only answer that has come so far is the biggest single tax increase in our nations history the payroll tax increase for Social Security which will only put a bandaid on this and postpone the day of reckoning by a few years at most. What is needed is a study that i have proposed by a task force of experts to look into this entire problem as to how it can be reformed and made actuarially sound, but with the premise that no one presently dependent on Social Security is going to have the rug pulled out from under them and not get their check. We cannot frighten, as we have with the threats and the Campaign Rhetoric that has gone on in this campaign, our Senior Citizens leave them thinking that in some way, theyre endangered and they would have no place to turn. They must continue to get those checks, and i believe that the system can be put on a sound actuarial basis. But its going to take some study and some work, and not just passing a tax increase to let the load or the roof fall in on the next administration. Would you repeat that question for president carter . Yes. President carter, wage earners in this country, especially the young, are supporting a Social Security system that continues to affect their income drastically. The system is fostering a struggle between young and old and is drifting the country toward a polarization of these two groups. How much longer can the young wage earner expect to bear the everincreasing burden of the Social Security system . As long as there is a democratic president in the white house, we will have a strong and viable Social Security system, free of the threat of bankruptcy. Although governor reagan has changed his position lately, on four different occasions, he has advocated making Social Security a voluntary system, which would, in effect, very quickly bankrupt it. I noticed also in the wall street journal early this week, that a preliminary report of his task force advocates making Social Security more sound by reducing the adjustment in Social Security for the retired people to compensate for the impact of inflation. These kinds of approaches are very dangerous to the security, mind of the retired people of this country and those approaching retirement age. But no matter what it takes in the future to keep Social Security sound, it must be kept that way. And although there was a serious threat to the Social Security system and its integrity during the 1976 campaign and when i became president , the action of the Democratic Congress working with me has been to put Social Security back on a sound financial basis. That is the way it will stay. Governor reagan . Well, that just isnt true. It has, as i said, delayed the actuarial imbalance falling on us for just a few years with that increase in taxes, and i dont believe we can go on increasing the tax, because the problem for the young people today is that they are paying in far more than they can ever expect to get out. Now, again this statement that somehow, i wanted to destroy it and i just changed my tune, that i am for voluntary Social Security, which would mean the ruin of it. Mr. President , the voluntary thing that i suggested many years ago was that with a young man orphaned and raised by an aunt who died, his aunt was ineligible for Social Security insurance because she was not his mother. And i suggested that if this is an insurance program, certainly the person who is paying in should be able to name his own beneficiary. That is the closest i have ever come to anything voluntary with Social Security. I, too, am pledged to a Social Security program that will reassure these Senior Citizens of ours that they are going to continue to get their money. There are some changes that i would like to make. I would like to make a change in the regulation that discriminates against a wife who works and finds that she then is faced with a choice between her fathers or her husbands benefits, if he dies first, or what she has paid in, but it does not recognize that she has also been paying in herself, and she is entitled to more than she presently can get. Id like to change that. President carters rebuttal now. These constant suggestions that the basic Social Security system should be changed does call for concern and consternation among the aged of our country. It is obvious that we should have a commitment to them, that Social Security benefits should not be taxed and that there would be no peremptory change in the standards by which Social Security payments are made to retired people. We also need to continue to index Social Security payments, so that if inflation rises, the Social Security payments would rise a commensurate degree to let the buying power of a Social Security check continue intact. In the past, the relationship between Social Security and medicare has been very important to providing some modicum of aid for Senior Citizens in the retention of health benefits. Governor reagan, as a matter of fact, began his political career campaigning around this nation against medicare. Now, we have an opportunity to move toward National Health insurance, with an emphasis on the prevention of disease, an emphasis on outpatient care, not inpatient care, an emphasis on hospital Cost Containment to hold down the cost of hospital care far those who are ill, an emphasis on Catastrophic Health insurance, so that if a family is threatened with being wiped out economically because of a very high medical bill, then the insurance would help pay for it. These are the kinds of elements of a National Health insurance, important to the American People. Governor reagan, again, typically is against such a proposal. Governor . There you go again. When i opposed medicare, there was another piece of legislation meeting the same problem before the congress. I happened to favor the other piece of legislation and thought that it would be better for the Senior Citizens and provide better care than the one that was finally passed. I was not opposing the principle of providing care for them. I was opposing one piece of legislation versus another. There is Something Else about Social Security. Of course, it doesnt come out of the payroll tax. It comes out of a general fund, but something should be done about it. I think it is disgraceful that the Disability Insurance fund in Social Security finds checks going every month to tens of thousands of people who are locked up in our institutions for crime or for mental illness, and they are receiving disability checks from Social Security every month while a state institution provides for all of their needs and their care. President carter, you have the last word on this question. I think this debate on Social Security, medicare, National Health insurance typifies, as vividly any other subject tonight, the basic historical differences between the Democratic Party and Republican Party. The allusions to basic changes in the minimum wage is another, and the deleterious comments that governor reagan has made about unemployment compensation. These commitments that the Democratic Party has historically made to the working families of this nation have been extremely important to the growth in their stature and in a better quality of life for them. I noticed recently that governor reagan frequently quotes democratic president s in his acceptance address. I have never heard a candidate for president , who is a republican, quote a republican president , but when they get in office, they try to govern like republicans. So, it is good for the American People to remember that there is a sharp basic historical difference between governor reagan and me on these crucial issues also, between the two parties that we represent. Thank you mr. President , governor reagan. We now go to another question a question to president carter by barbara waiters. Thank you. You have addressed some of the major issues tonight, but the Biggest Issue in the mind of American Voters is yourselves your ability to lead this country. When many voters go into that booth just a week from today, they will be voting their gut instinct about you men. You have already given us your reasons why people should vote for you, now would you please tell us for this your final question, why they should not vote for your opponent, why his presidency could be harmful to the nation and, having examined both your opponents record and the man himself, tell us his greatest weakness. Barbara, reluctant as i am to say anything critical about governor reagan, i will try to answer your question. First of all, there is the Historical Perspective that i just described. This is a contest between a democrat in the mainstream of my party, as exemplified by the actions that i have taken in the oval office the last four years, as contrasted with governor reagan, who in most cases does typify his party, but in some cases, there is a radical departure by him from the heritage of eisenhower and others. The most important crucial difference in this election campaign, in my judgment, is the approach to the control of Nuclear Weaponry and the inclination to control or not to control the spread of atomic weapons to other nations who dont presently have it, particularly terrorist nations. The inclination that governor reagan has exemplified in many troubled times since he has been running for president i think since 1968 to inject American Military forces in places like north korea, to put a blockade around cuba this year, or in some instances, to project American Forces into a fishing dispute against the small nation of ecuador on the west coast of south america. This is typical of his longstanding inclination, on the use of American Power, not to resolve disputes diplomatically and peacefully, but to show that the exercise of military power is best proven by the actual use of it. Obviously, no president wants war, and i certainly do not believe that governor reagan, if he were president , would want war, but a president in the oval office has to make a judgment on almost a daily basis about how to exercise the enormous power of our country for peace, through diplomacy, or in a careless way in a belligerent attitude which has exemplified his attitudes in the past. Barbara, would you repeat the question for governor reagan . Yes, thank you. Realizing that you may be equally reluctant to speak ill of your opponent, may i ask why people should not vote for your opponent, why his presidency could be harmful to the nation, and having examined both your opponents record and the man himself, could you tell us his greatest weakness . Well, barbara, i believe that there is a fundamental difference and i think it has been evident in most of the answers that mr. Carter has given tonight that he seeks the solution to anything as another opportunity for a federal government program. I happen to believe that the federal government has usurped powers of autonomy and authority that belong back at the state and local level. It has imposed on the individual freedoms of the people, and there are more of these things that could be solved by the people themselves, if they were given a chance, or by the levels of government that were closer to them. Now, as to why i should be and he shouldnt be, when he was a candidate in 1976, president carter invented a thing he called the misery index. He added the rate of unemployment and the rate of inflation, and it came, at that time, to 12. 5 under president ford. He said that no man with that size misery index has a right to seek reelection to the presidency. Today, by his own decision, the misery index is in excess of 20 , and i think this must suggest something. But, when i had quoted a democratic president , as the president says, i was a democrat. I said many foolish things back in those days. But the president that i quoted had made a promise, a democratic promise, and i quoted him because it was never kept. And today, you would find that that promise is at the very heart of what republicanism represents in this country today. Thats why i believe there are going to be millions of democrats that are going to vote with us this time around, because they too want that promise kept. It was a promise for Less Government and less taxes and more freedom for the people. President carter . I mentioned the radical departure of governor reagan from the principles or ideals of Historical Perspective of his own party. I dont think that can be better illustrated than in the case of guaranteeing women equal rights under the constitution of our nation. For 40 years, the Republican Party platforms called for guaranteeing women equal rights with a constitutional amendment. Six predecessors of mine who served in the oval office called for this guarantee of womens rights. Governor reagan and his new Republican Party have departed from this commitment a very severe blow to the opportunity for women to finally correct discrimination under which they have suffered. When a man and a women do the same amount of work, a man gets paid 1. 00, a women only gets paid 59 cents. And the equal rights amendment only says that equality of rights shall not be abridged for omen b the federal government or by he state governments. That is all it says a simple guarantee of equality of opportunity which typifies the democratic arty, and which is a very important commitment of mine, as contrasted with governor reagans radical departure from the longstanding policy of his own party. Governor reagan . Yes. Mr. President , once again, i happen to be against the amendment, because i think the amendment will take this problem out of the hands of elected legislators and put it in the hands of unelected judges. I am for equal rights, and while you have been in office for four ears and not one single state and most of them have a majority of democratic legislators has added to the ratification or voted to ratify the equal rights amendment. While i was governor, more than eight years ago, i found 14 separate instances where women were discriminated against in the body of california law, and i had passed and signed into law 14 statutes that eliminated those discriminations, including the economic ones that you have just mentioned equal pay and so forth. I believe that if in all these years that we have spent trying to get the amendment, that we had spent as much time correcting these laws, as we did in california and we were the first to do it. If i were president , i would also now take a look at the hundreds of federal regulations which discriminate against women and which go right on while everyone is looking for an amendment. I would have someone ride herd on those regulations, and we would start eliminating those discriminations in the federal government against women. President carter . Howard, im a southerner, and i share the basic beliefs of my region that an excessive government intrusion into the private affairs of american citizens and also into the private affairs of the Free Enterprise system. One of the commitments that i made was to deregulate the Major Industries of this country. Weve been remarkably successful, with the help of a Democratic Congress. We have deregulated the air industry, the rail industry, the trucking industry, financial institutions. Were now working on the communications industry. In addition to that, i believe that this element of discrimination is something that the south has seen so vividly as a blight on our region of the country which has now been corrected not only Racial Discrimination but discrimination against people that have to work for a living because we have been trying to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, since the long depression years, and lead a full and useful life in the affairs of this country. We have made remarkable success. It is part of my consciousness and of my commitment to continue this progress. So, my heritage as a southerner, my experience in the oval office, convinces me that what i have just described is a proper course for the future. Governor reagan, yours is the last word. Well, my last word is again to say this, we were talking about this very simple amendment and womens rights. And i make it plain again, i am for womens rights. But i would like to call the attention of the people to the fact that that socalled simple amendment could be used by mischievous men to destroy discriminations that properly belong, by law, to women respecting the physical differences between the two sexes, labor laws that protect them against things that would be physically harmful to them. Those would all, could all be challenged by men. And the same would be true with regard to combat service in the military and so forth. I thought that was the subject we were supposed to be on. But, if were talking about how much we think about the working people and so forth, im the only fellow who ever ran for this job who was six times president of his own union and still has a lifetime membership in that union. Gentlemen, each of you now has three minutes for a closing statement. President carter, youre first. First of all, id like to thank the league of women voters for making this debate possible. I think its been a very constructive debate and i hope its helped to acquaint the American People with the sharp differences between myself and governor reagan. Also, i want to thank the people of cleveland and ohio for being such hospitable hosts during these last few hours in my life. Ive been president now for almost four years. Ive had to make thousands of decisions, and each one of those decisions has been a learning process. Ive seen the strength of my nation, and ive seen the crises it approached in a tentative way. And ive had to deal with those crises as best i could. As ive studied the record between myself and governor reagan, ive been impressed with the stark differences that exist between us. I think the result of this debate indicates that that fact is true. I consider myself in the mainstream of my party. I consider myself in the mainstream even of the bipartisan list of president s who served before me. The United States must be a nation strong, the United States must be a nation secure. Just and fair. And we must extend the benefits of our own commitment to peace, to create a peaceful world. I believe that since ive been in office, there have been six or eight areas of combat evolved in other parts of the world. In each case, i alone have had to determine the interests of my country and the degree of involvement of my country. Ive done that with moderation, with care, with thoughtfulness, sometimes consulting experts. But, ive learned in this last three and a half years that when an issue is extremely difficult, when the call is very close, the chances are the experts will be divided almost 5050. And the final judgment about the future of the nation war, peace, involvement, reticence, thoughtfulness, care, consideration, concern has to be made by the man in the oval office. Its a lonely job, but with the involvement of the American People in the process, with an open government, the job is a very gratifying one. The American People now are facing, next tuesday, a lonely decision. Those listening to my voice will have to make a judgment about the future of this country. And i think they ought to remember that one vote can make a lot of difference. If one vote per precinct had changed in 1960, john kennedy would never have been president of this nation. And if a few more people had gone to the polls and voted in 1968, Hubert Humphrey would have been president , Richard Nixon would not. There is a partnership involved in our nation. To stay strong, to stay at peace, to raise high the banner of human rights, to set an example for the rest of the world, to let our deep beliefs and commitments be felt by others in other nations, is my plan for the future. I ask the American People to join me in this partnership. Governor reagan . Yes, i would like to add my words of thanks, too, to the ladies of the league of women voters for making these debates possible. Im sorry that we couldnt persuade the bringing in of the third candidate, so that he could have been seen also in these debates. But still, its good that at least once, all three of us were heard by the people of this country. Next tuesday is election day. Next tuesday all of you will go to the polls, will stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision, it might be well if you would ask yourself, are you better off than you were four years ago . Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago . Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago . Is america as respected throughout the world as it was . Do you feel that our security is as safe, that were as strong as we were four years ago . And if you answer all of those questions yes, why then, i think your choice is very obvious as to whom you will vote for. If you dont agree, if you dont think that this course that weve been on for the last four years is what you would like to see us follow for the next four, then i could suggest another choice that you have. This country doesnt have to be in the shape that it is in. We do not have to go on sharing in scarcity with the country getting worse off, with unemployment growing. We talk about the unemployment lines. If all of the unemployed today were in a single line allowing two feet for each of them, that line would reach from new york city to los angeles, california. All of this can be cured and all of it can be solved. I have not had the experience the president has had in holding that office, but i think in being governor of california, the most populous state in the union if it were a nation, it would be the seventhranking economic power in the world i, too, had some lonely moments and decisions to make. I know that the Economic Program that i have proposed for this nation in the next few years can resolve many of the problems that trouble us today. I know because we did it there. We cut the cost the increased cost of government in half over the eight years. We returned 5. 7 billion in tax rebates, credits and cuts to our people. We, as i have said earlier, fell below the National Average in inflation when we did that. And i know that we did give back authority and autonomy to the people. I would like to have a crusade today, and i would like to lead that crusade with your help. And it would be one to take government off the backs of the great people of this country, and turn you loose again to do those things that i know you can do so well, because you did them and made this country great. Thank you. Gentlemen ladies and gentlemen, for 60 years the league of women voters has been committed to citizen education and effective participation of americans in governmental and political affairs. The most critical element of all in that process is an informed citizen who goes to the polls and votes. On behalf of the league of women voters now, i would like to thank president carter and governor reagan for being with us in cleveland tonight and, ladies and gentlemen, thank you and good night. [ applause ] [ applause ] [ applause ] weeknights this month on American History tv, were looking at past president ial debates. Tonight we look at the president ial debates of 1988 and 1996. First a debate from the 1988 campaign between incumbent Vice President george h. W. Bush and Massachusetts Governor michael dukakis. Thats followed by the first debate between debate between bill clinton and bob dole from the 1996 president ial campaign. Watch tonight and enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. The president s available in paperback, hardcover and ebook from public affairs. It presents autobiographies on each president , noted historians about the leadership skills that make for a successful presidency. As americans go to the polls next month to decide who should lead our country, this collection offers perspectives into the lives and events that forged each president s leadership style. To learn more about all our president s and the books featured historians, go to cspan. Org thepresident s and order today wherever books are sold. In 1984, president reagan debated his democratic challenger, former Vice President Walter Mondale twice. Up next, here on American History tv, their second debate which focused on Foreign Policy. [ applause ] good evening