Francisco. An estimated 1 million americans are watching on television as well. San francisco was the side of the signing of the United Nations to order 31 years ago. Thus, its a appropriate place to move this debate. The subject of which is foreign and defense issues. The questioners tonight our max franken, associated editor of the new york times, henry ultra, it diplomatic respond of the diplomat son, and richard, the correspondent at nbc news. The ground rules tonight are basically the same as they were for the first debate two weeks ago. The questions will be alternated between candidates. At the toss of a coin governor herder will take the first question. Huge question sequence will be as follows. The question will be asked and the candidate will have up to three minutes to answer. His opponent will have up to two minutes to respond. Prior to the response the questioner find a one necessary with up to two minutes to reply. Each candidate will have three minutes for closing statement at the end. President forward and governor carter dont have notes or prepared remarks with him this evening, but they may take notes during the debate and refer to them. Mr. Franklin, you have the first question for governor carter. Governor since the democrats last run our Foreign Policy including many of the men who are advising, you the country has been relieved of the vietnam agony and military draft. Weve started arms control negotiations with the russians. Weve opened relations with china, arrange the disengagement in the United States and regained influence and arab without deserving israel. Now we have begun peaceful change in africa. You have objected in this campaign to the style with which much of this was done, and you mentioned some other things that you think ought to have been done. Do you really have a coral with this republican record . We do not have done any of those things . I think this Republican Administration has been all style and spectacular, and not substance. Weve got a chance tonight to talk about forceable leadership, the character of our country, and a vision of the future. In one of these instances the ford admission has fields and i hope tonight that will have a chance to discuss a reason for those failures. Our country isnt strong anymore, were not respected anymore. When i become president , im not going to only be strong in those areas but also defense. Our defense capabilities second to none. We have lost in our Foreign Policy the character of the American People. We have ignored or excluded the American People in congress participation of shaping Foreign Policy has been a practice exclusion. In addition to that weve had a chance to become now beliefs and principles. In the whole world, weve tried to find success from our enemies and at the same time weve excluded from the process, the normal friendship of our allies. In addition to that we become unable to compete with the soviet union an equal basis. We talk about time. The soviet union knows what they want and they have been getting. It we havent been getting what we wanted and weve been out couldnt almost every instance. We have got to be a nation that is efficient, tough, capable, well organized, focused, fighting capability. The belated to fight necessarily is the best the last point i want to make his. This mr. Ford, mr. Kissinger, have continued on with the policies of richard nixon. Even the republican platform has criticized the lack of leadership of mr. Ford. They have criticized the Foreign Policy of this administration. Agree with a republican platform and i would say, as far as Foreign Policy goes, mr. Kissinger has been mr. Ford has shut the absence of leadership and absence of a craft of what the country is and what it ought to. Be that has to be changed and that is one of the major issues of this campaign in 1976. Would you like to respond . Mr. Carter again is talking in broad generalities. Let me take one question he races. The military strength and capability of the United States. Governor corridor in november of 1975 indicated that he wanted to cut the budget by a few days later he said he wanted to put the Defense Budget by nine or 10 Million Dollars and more recently he talks about cutting the Defense Budget by five, 7 Million Dollars. Theres no way you can be strong militarily and have those kinds of reductions in our military appropriation. Let me just tell you a little story. Oh quote lead october of 1975, i asked the then secretary of defense to tell me what would have to be done if we were going to reduce the Defense Budget by three to five billion dollars. A few days later he came back and said if we cut the Defense Budget by three to five billion dollars, we will have to cut military personnel by 2050. Thousand civilian personal by 100. Thousand jobs in america by hundred thousand. We would have to stretch out our aircraft for children. We would have to reduce our Naval Construction program. We would have to reduce the research and development for the army, the navy, air force and marines by wed have to Close Military bases in the notice immediately. Thats the kind of Defense Program that mr. Carter wants. Let me tell you that straight from the shoulder. The kind of a Defense Program that mr. Carter wants will mean ate the current offense in a foreign negotiating position. A question for president. Forward mister president my question is the other side of the coin from mr. For. Angles for generation based on containment of communism. Yet we have lost the first war in vietnam, lost a shoving match in mongolia, peaceful means in italy and relations have generally cooled in the soviet union over the last several months to let me ask you first what you do about such cases as italy . Secondly, does this general drift mean that we are going towards a cold war movement in the soviet union. I dont believe we should move towards a cold war. I think its in the best interests of it states in the world as a whole that then it states negotiate rather than go back to the cold war relationship with the soviet union. I dont look at the question as likely as you do i believe the United States has had many successes in recent years and recent months as far as the comments movement is concerned. Weve been successful in portugal, or a year ago it looked like there was a very great possibility that the communists would takeover in portugal. It didnt happen. We have a dark moxie in portugal today. Few months ago or i should say two years ago the soviet union looks like they had continued strength in the middle east. Today according to the Prime Minister, the soviet union is weaker in the middle east than they have been in many, many years. The facts are the soviet Union Relationship with egypt is at a low level. The soviet Union Relationship with syria is at a very low point. The United States today according to Prime Minister of israel is at its peak in influence of power in the middle east. Lets turn for a minute to the Southern African elections that are now going on. The United States of america took the initiative in southern africa. We wanted to end the bloodshed in southern africa. We wanted to have the right of Self Determination in south africa. We wanted to have majority rule with the full protection of the rights of the minority. We wanted to preserve Human Dignity in southern africa. We have taken the initiative and in southern africa, today the United States is trusted by the black frontline nations and black africa. The United States is trust by the other elements in south africa. United states Foreign Policy under this administration has been one of progress and success. And i believe that instead of talking about soviet progress we can talk about american successes. May i make it observation . Part of the question you asked mr. True it. I dont believe its in the best interests of the interstates and the knee donations to have a communist government in nato. Mr. Carter has indicated he would look with sympathy to a communist government in nato. I think that would destroy the integrity and the strength of nato and im totally opposed to it. Unfortunately you made a statement does not true. Ive never advocated a communist government for italy. That would obviously be a ridiculous for someone to do to become president of the country. This a instance of deliver distortion and this occurred in defense. As a matter of fact, i would never advocate a cut in the Defense Budget. As a matter of fact mr. Ford has made a political football but of a Defense Budget. And of a year ago he cut the pentagon budget 6. 8 Million Dollars. After he fired the political hes got so great that he added back about three billion dollars. When Ronald Reagan won the texas primary election, mr. Ford added another one and a half Million Dollars. Amid the texas city he added another 1. 5 million to his own office of budget testify that he had added to the Defense Budget under pressure from the pentagon. Obviously this is another indication of trying to use the Defense Budget for political purposes which is trying to do tonight. He went into south africa after the lac nations have been trying to sell these phones for many, many years. We dont go in until ripple for the election. Some of it was taking place in 1972. But mustnt mr. Kissinger announced piece is abound. Weve weakened opposition in nato because other countries in europe supported Democratic Forces in portugal long before we did. We stuck to the portugal leader dictatorships much more than other countries in the world. You have a question for governor carter. Governor carter much of what the United States does abroad is done in the name of the national interests. Whats your concept of the nations interests . What should the rule of the country be in the world . You take pride in being on washington outsider. Dont you think would be appropriate for you to tell the American Voters before the election people that you would like to have been key positions . Such as secretary of state. Secretary of defense. National security adviser of the white house. Im not going to name the cabinet elected. Ive got ways to go before doing. That ive got an adequate back when i believe. Im a military graduate since eisenhower. Ive served of the governor of georgia and traveled extensively in countries in south america and europe and japan. Ive traveled for the last 21 months ive seen firsthand in a very vivid way the deep hurt thats come to this country and the aftermath of vietnam and can podium, and, chile and pakistan, angela, and watergate, cia revelations. But we are so proud of, the strength of our country is integrity. The representation and Foreign Affairs of what our people are, what our constitution stands for, has gone. And in the secrecy that is surrounded our Foreign Policy in the last few years, the American People on the congress have been excluded. I believe i know what this country ought to be. I am one who is loved my nation as Many Americans do. And i believe it there is no limit based on what we can be on the future. If we can harness sources, militarily, economically, and the stature of our people, the meaning over constitution in the future. Every time weve made a serious mistake in Foreign Affairs, its been because the American People have been excluded from a process. If we can just tap the intelligence and ability and the sound common sense and good judgment of the American People, we can once again have a Foreign Policy to make us proud instead of ashamed. Im not gonna exclude the American People from that process in the future, this is what it takes to have a sound Foreign Policy, strong at home, strong defense, permanent commitments, not betray the principles of our country and evolving American People make congress and shaping our Foreign Policy. Every time that ford speaks composition of secrecy, in negotiations and secret treaties that have been pursued and achieved and supporting dictatorships and ignoring human rights, we are weak. And the rest of the world knows it. These are the ways that we can restore the strength of our country, they do not we choir experience in Foreign Policy, that with my background, my experience, my knowledge of the people of this country, my commitment, those are the best basics to correct the mistakes of this administration and restore our own country to position of leadership. Now specifically, governor, are you going to bring the people into the decisionmaking process in Foreign Policy. What does that mean . First of all i would quit conducting the Decision Making process in secret, as kissinger and ford have done. Weve made a grievance like in vietnam that have been revealed later on to our own embarrassment. Recently, the president of rhodesia announced that he had unequivocal commitments from kissinger that he could not reveal. The American People dont know what those are. We have seen in the past over the destruction of electric governments like chile, and the Strong Military dictatorship there, these things have heard us very much. I would restore the concept of a fresh start chat. That was an inter agreeable part of the administration of franklin roosevelt. I would also restore the involvement of the congress. When harry truman was president he was not afraid to have a strong secretary of defense. But he also make sure that there is a bipartisan support, the members of congress, were part of the congress and process and made a secret agreement. Before we meet a bluffing statement we were sure that we have the backing that only of the president secretary of state but of the congress and the people. This is a responsibility of a president , i think it is very damaging in our country to turn over. President for, do you have a response. Governor carter contradicts himself, he complains about secrecy and yet he is quoted as saying in the attempt to find a solution in the middle east that he would hold unpublicized meetings with the soviet union. I presume for the purpose of imposing a settlement on israel an arab nations. Let me talk again about what we have done to avoid secrecy in the Ford Administration. After the United States took the initiative of working with israel and egypt and achieving this sinai to agreement, i am proud to say that not a single egyptian or israeli soldier has lost his life since the signing of the agreement. But at the time that i submitted the sign agreement to the congress of the United States, i submitted every single document that was applicable to the sinai to agreement. It was the most complete documentation by any president of any agreement signed by a president on behalf of the United States. As far as meeting with the congress is concerned, during the 24 months that ive been the president of the United States, i have averaged better than one meeting a month with responsible groups or committees of the congress and houses of the senate. A secretary of state has appeared in a several years that hes been a secretary before 80 Different Committee hearings in the house and senate. The secretary say it has made better than 50 speeches all over the United States explaining american Foreign Policy. I have made myself at least ten speeches in various parts of the country where i have discussed with the American People defensive Foreign Policy. Mister president , i would like to explore deeply our relationship with the russians. I used to break back in bush of stay that because their patients and our greed for business deals, that they would get the better of us. Is it possible that despite hahey proved their point. Our allies in france and italy are flirting with communism. We recognized a permanent communist regime in east germany, we signed in helsinki and agreement that russia has dominance in eastern uber here. We have filled out soviet agriculture, weve given them large loans, access to our best technology and if the senate hadnt interfered with the jackson amendment, maybe you would have given them larger loans. Is that what you call to a streak of traffic in europe . I believe that we have negotiated with the soviet union since ive been president from a position of strength. And let me cite several examples. Shortly after i became president in december of 1974, i met with general secretary mr brezhnev and we agreed to a mutual cap on the Ballistic Missile launchers at a ceiling of 2400. That means that the soviet union, if that becomes a permanent agreement, will have to make a reduction in their launchers that they now have or planned to have. I negotiated them with mr brezhnev a limitation on the Ballistic Missilesv of 13 20, which is the first time that any president has achieved a cap either on launchers or on him herbs. It seems to me that we can go from there to the green sales. The green sales have been a benefit to american agriculture. We have achieved a five and three quarter year sale of a minimum of 6 Million Metric Tons, which means that they have already bought about 4 Million Metric Tons this year and are bound to buy another 2 Million Metric Tons to take the green and corn and wheat that the American Farmers have produced, in order to have full production. In these green cells to the soviet union have helped us tremendously and beating the costs of Additional Oil and oil that we have bought from overseas. If we turn to helsinki, im glad you raise this point, in the case of helsinki, 35 nations signed an agreement including a secretary of state for the vatican, i cannot under any circumstances belief that his holiness the pope would agree by signing that agreement that the 35 nations have turned over to the warsaw pact nations, the domination of Eastern Europe. It just isnt true. And mr. Carter alleges that his holiness by signing that has done it, he is totally inaccurate. What has been accomplished by the helsinki agreement . Number one, we have an agreement where they notify us and we notify them of any military maneuvers that are to be undertaken. They have done it in both cases when they did so. There is no soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under fords at the destruction. Im sorry, did i just understand that you said the russians are not using Eastern Europe as there is fear of influence and occupying most of the countries there and making sure with their troops that it is a communist zone . And on our side of the line no italians in franchise so flirting with i dont believe that the yugoslavians would consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. I dont believe the rule mediumss consider themselves dominate by the soviet union. I dont believe that the polls consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. Each of those countries is into independent, autonomous, it has its own territorial integrity. And the United States does not concede that those countries are under the domination of the soviet union. As a matter of fact, i visited poland, yugoslavia and romania to make certain that the people of those countries understood that the president of the United States and the people of the United States are dedicated to their independence, their autonomy, and their freedom. We governor kurd or, do you have a response . Well in the first place, im not criticizing his holiness the pope. I was talking about mr. Ford. The fact is, the secrecy has surrounded the decisions made by thec in the case of the helsinki agreement, it may have been a good agreement at the beginning. But we have failed to enforce which ensures the right of people to migrate, join the families, the free, speak out, the soviet union is still jamming for europes radio with radio for europe is being jammed. We are also seeing a very serious problem with the socalled Southern Belle document. Which says that there is an organic linkage between the Eastern European countries on the soviet union. And id like to see mr. Ford convince polish americans, check americans, hungarian americans in this country that those countries dont live under the domination and supervision of the soviet union behind their own curtain. We have also seen mr. Ford exclude himself from access to the public. He hasnt had a tough cross examination type in over 30 days. When he had was without sound. Hes also showing a weakness in yielding to pressure on the soviet union. They put pressure on mr. Ford and he refused to see a symbol of human freedom recognized around the world. Alexander solzhenitsyn. The arabs have put pressure on mr. Forward and hes yielded and has permitted a boycott on arab countries. American businesses who trade with israel who have American Jews, owning all or taken part of the management of american countries. Some secretary of commerce had to be subpoenaed by the congress to reveal the names of who is subject to this boycott. They didnt follow tear that information, he had to be subpoenaed. The last thing id like to say is this, this brain deal with a soviet union in 72 was terrible. Mr. Ford made up for it with three embargoes one against our own in japan, thats not the way to run our Foreign Policy, including national trade. I would like to pick up on that point and on your appeal for greater measure of american idealism in foreign fares. For affairs come home to the American Public pretty much on issues such as embargoes and green sales, that sort of thing. Would you be willing to risk and audit embargo in order to promote human rights and iran, saudi arabia. Withholding arms from saudi arabia for the same purpose . Maybe you answered it, maybe you promote for cuba . I would never see food as a trade embargo item. If i ever decided to impose embargo, because of a crisis and international relationships, what a call all shipments of all equipment. For instance, if the arab countries ever again declare an embargo against our nation on oil, i would consider that and economic declaration of war. I would respond instantly and inclined. I would not ship that arab country anything, no weapons, no spare parts for weapons, no oil drilling rigs, no pipe, nothing. I wouldnt signal out just food. Another thing i would like to say is this, in our international trade, as i said in my opening statement, we have become Arms Merchant of the world. This Republican Administration came into office, we are shipping about one billion dollars worth of all overseas, now ten to 12 billion dollars worth overseas to countries that quite often use these weapons to fight each other. Its been very disturbing to me. Speaking about that under the last democratic constitution, 60 of all weapons that went into the middle east were from israel. Nowadays, [inaudible] 60 go to the arab countries. This doesnt include iran. If you include iran, our present shipment to the middle east only 20 coast israel. This is a deviation from idealism. Its a deviation from our commitment to our major ally in the middle east which is. Israel its a tremendous indication that under the Ford Administration we havent addressed the Energy Policy adequately. We still have no comprehensive Energy Policy in this country. Overall it aside a weakness. Economically, high unemployment, high inflation, acute infused government. This encourages the kind of pressure that has been put on us it wouldve been inconceivable for us to have been brought to our knees with a oil embargo but it was done three years ago and theyre still putting pressure on us. From the arab countries to discredit around the world. These are the weaknesses that i see and i believe its not just a matter of idealism. Its a matter of being tough. Its a matter of being strong. Its a matter of being persistent. Our priorities to meet our own military needs. The second to meet that needs of our allies and friends and then shipped to our other countries. Before we even meet our own [inaudible] and the shipment to iran are much more highly sophisticated than just assures presently being delivered to our own. Maybe this is ridiculous and its gonna be changed. Even if the risk was and oil embargo securing it from someone else and then if that embargo came even respond in kind. Do i have it correctly . Iran isnt a arab country as you, know its a muslim country. If we would i would make sure that the saudis understood this ahead of time said that there would be no doubt in their minds. I think under those circumstances they would refrain from pushing us to our knees as they did in 1973 with the previous hold on embargo. President ford. Governor curnow apparently doesnt realize that since ive been president we have sold to the israelis over four billion dollars of military hardware that weve made available to the israelis over 45 of the total economic and military aid since the establishment of israel 27 years ago. So the Ford Administration has done a good job in helping our good allies, israel, and were dedicated to the survival of israel. I believe that governor carter didnt realize the need and necessity for armed sales to arrive. He indicated would not make those. Iran is bordered very extensively by the soviet union. Iran has iraq at one of its neighbors. The soviet union and the communist dominated government of iraq our neighbors of iran and iran as a ally of the United States. Its my strong feeling that we ought to sell arms to iran for its own National Security and as a strong ally of the United States. Minister of a relationship with iran goes back to the days of president truman. When he decided that it was vitally necessary for our own security, as well as that of iran that we should help that country, and iran has been a good ally in 1973 when there was a oil embargo iran didnt participate. Iran continued to sell oil to the United States. I believe that it is in our interest and in the interest of israel and iran and saudi arabia for the United States to sell arms to those countries. It is for their security as well as ours. A question for president word. Mister president the policy if youre nutritionist or normalize relations with Mainland China. That means establishing at some point full diplomatic relations and obviously doing something about that mutual defense treaty with taiwan. If you are elected will you move to establish full diplomatic relations with the b and will you with taiwan. As a corollary will you provide Mainland China with military equipment if the chinese were to ask for it . Our relationship with the peoples republic of china is based upon the shanghai communicate of 1972. If that communicated calls for the normalization of relations between the United States and the peoples republic, it doesnt set a time schedule. It doesnt make a determination as to how that relationship should be achieved, in relationship to our current diplomatic relationship an obligation to the taiwanese government. It does say that the differences between the peoples republic on the one hand, and taiwan on the other shall be settled by peaceful means. The net result is this administration, and during my time as the president for the next four years we will continue to move for normalization of relations in the traditional sense. And we will insist that the disputes between taiwan and the peoples republic be settled peacefully, as was agreed in the shanghai communicated up 1972. The Ford Administration will not let down, will not eliminate or forget our obligation to the people of taiwan. We feel that there must be a continued obligation to the people to some 19 or 20 Million People in taiwan. And as we move during the next four years, those will be the policies of this administration. Certainly military equipment for the mainland chinese. Theres no policy of this government to give to the peoples republic to salt peoples republic of China Military equipment. I dont believe that we then added states, should sell, give, or otherwise transfer military hardware to the peoples republic of china, or any other communist nation such as the soviet union and the like. Governor carter. I would like to go back just one moment to the previous question were mr. Forward. Id like to confuse the issue by saying that were shipping israel for the percent of our aid as a matter of fact during this year weve contracted to ship to iran and also to said arabia about 1. 5 billion dollars of arms. Also we almost brought israel to its knees after the young cop or war after the socalled reassessment of our relationship scapegoat for the problems in the middle east and this week in a relationship with israel a great deal and put a cloud on the commitment that the people feel. Towards the israelis. There ought to be a clear unequivocal commitment without changed israel. In the forties i think we need to continue to be strong. I would certainly pursue the normalization of relationships with the people of the republic of china. We opened opportunity in 1872 which was fretted away under mr. Floyd and it ought to be a constant inclination towards friendship but i would never let that friendship with the peoples republic of china stand in the way of the preservation of the independence of freedom of the people of taiwan. Mr. Frugal, a question for governor quarter. Governor we often see and our elections who can be tougher. Given take weapons and leading systems i think you two gentlemen seem to settle on roughly the same strategy in the world with roughly the same pentagon costs. Have bad things need to get in our own economy or how much backward miss and hunger wouldve taken the world to persuade you that our National Security, and our survival require very drastic cutbacks in arms spending and dramatic new efforts in other directions . Always in the past we have had an ability to have a strong defense, and also to have a strong domestic economy, and also to be strong and our reputation and influence within the community of nations. These characteristics of our country have been endangered under mr. Ford. We are no longer respected in the in admissions or any other International Council were lucky to get ten 5 of other nations to vote with us. Our allies feel that we neglected them. The socalled nixon shocks again japan have we get our elections there. Under the administration with also kept separate European Countries thinking that if were separate we can dominate them and proceed with our secret long roger types i would also like to point out that we in this country have let our country go down the drain. The worst completion since the great depression. The highest unemployment of any developed nation in the world. We have a higher Unemployment Rate in this country than preprint west, germany that Unemployment Rate is higher than it is and germany and japan, and that terrible circumstance in this country is exploited overseas. We comprised 30 of the worlds economic trade power influence. And when will we get home. We heard that all our allies. That weakness because the whole free world. So a Strong Economy is very important. Another thing that we need to do is reestablish the good relationships that we ought to have between the United States and our natural allies in france. Theyve failed to neglect and using that base of strength and using the idealism, the, honesty the predictability, the commitment, the integrity of our country, thats where our strength lies. Dealing with in a position of strength under this administration weve had a continuation of the socalled balance of power policies. Where everything is looked as as a struggle between us on the one side and the soviet union on the other. The allies, the other countries get troubled in a rush. What we need is to try to see individualized bilateral relationships with countries on both sides and establish world order politics which means we wont preserve peace through strength. We also order a step back to the order that the Previous Administration had. I cant say when the skin come. I can guarantee you it wont come if fort is reelected and his present policies continue. It will come if im elected. I heard you right sir. You said guns and boats but president johnson also had trouble keeping up vietnam in his domestic programs. Really asking went to the needs of the cities and our own needs, and those of other backwards ed needy countries in the world take precedence over some of our military spending . Ever . Let me say very quickly that under president johnson as part of the massive investment in the vietnam war, he turned over a balanced budget to present nixon. That employment rate was less than 4 . The inflation rate was about 2 . One third what it is under this administration so we did it at that time under Good Management ability to do both. Neglected so poor and destitute people in the country and around the world. I can say this. The number one responsibility for any president above all else is to guarantee the security of our nation. Our ability to be free of threats of attack. Or blackmail. And to curate our obligations to allies and friends. And to carry it eight legitimate Foreign Policy. It must go hand in hand with the security of our nation. President ford. Let me say very categorically cannot maintain the security and state of the United States with the kind of Defense Budget cuts that governor carter has indicated. In 1975 he wanted to cut the budget 15 billion dollars. He is now down to a figure of five to seven billion dollars. Reductions of that kind will not permit the United States to be Strong Enough to deter aggression and maintain the peace. Of becoming recession. In puerto rico this year, i met with six of the leading industrial nations, heads of state, to meet the problem of inflation so we would be able to salvage it before got out a parent. I have met with the heads of government bilaterally as well as multilateral. Our relations with japan have never been better, i was the first United States president to visit japan. And we had the emperor of japan here, this past year and the net result is japan and the United States are working closely together now than any time in the history of our relationship. You can go around the worlds aunts but me take israel for example, just recently the president said our relations were never better. A question for president. Ford you referred earlier to mr brezhnev in 1974, you agree on that occasion to try to achieve another strategic arms limitation, salts agreement. Within a year. Nothing happened in 1975, not much publicly at least, those talks are still dragging and things got quieter as the current season approached. Is there a bit of politics involved on both sides, or perhaps more important are interim weapons developments, im thinking of things like a Cruise Missile on the soviet isis 20 intermediate range rocket, with that be making salt irrelevant . First we have to understand that salt one expires october 3rd, 1977. Doug mr brezhnev he and i met in december of 1974, for the purpose of trying to take the initial steps so we could have a salt two agreement that would go to 1985. As i indicated earlier, we did agree on a 2400 limitation with on launchers of Ballistic Missiles. That would mean a cutback on the soviet program that would not interfere with our own program. At the same time we put a limitation of 1320 win our technicians have been working since that time mentioning via trying to put in technical language an agreement that can be verified by both parties the. In the meantime, there has developed the problem of the soviet backfire. Their High Performance aircraft, which they say, is not a long range aircraft in which some of our people say it is an intercontinental aircraft. In the interim there has been some development on our part, the Cruise Missiles, that could be launched from land based global installations. Launched from High Performance aircraft like the b52s or the be ones that i hope we proceed with. Launch missiles that could be launched, for me they are surface or submarine naval vessels. Those great Weapon Systems are creating some problems in the agreement for a sultana to negotiation. That i can say that im dedicated to proceeding and i met just last week with the foreign minister of the soviet union, and he indicated to me that the soviet union was interested in narrowing the differences here and making a realistic and sound compromise. I hope and trust in the best interest of both countries and all people throughout this globe that the soviet union and the United States can make a mutual and beneficial agreement. Because if we do not, and sold one expires on october 3rd, 1977, you will unleash again an all out nuclear arms race. With the potential for a new color hall top cost of unbelievable dimensions. It is obligation of the president to do just that and i intend to do that. Let me follow that up by saying, we it adds a whole new dimension to the terms conversation. Kia a statement by your office, where use of the Cruise Missile might of actually be included in a comprehensive arms limitation agreement. But in the meantime it was essential part of the american strategic arsenal. May i assume from that that you are tending to exclude the Cruise Missile from the next solid agreement . Where is that still negotiable in that context . I believe that the Cruise Missiles which we are now developing and developing them across the spectrum from air to the sea to the land. It can be included with in a salt two agreement, it is a new Weapon System which has a great potential, both privilege at the same time, we have to make certain that the soviet union which they claim is not an intercontinental aircraft, which some of our people content is, it must also be included if we are to get the kind of agreement that is in the best interest of both countries. And i really believe that it is far better for us and for the soviet union and more importantly for the people around the world, that these two superpowers find an answer for assault to agreement before october three, 1977. I think goodwill on both parts, hard bargaining by both parties and reasonable compromise will be in the best interest of all parties. Governor carter . Mr. Ford acts like he is running for president for the first time, hes been in the office for two years. There has been no progress made for a new salt agreement. He has learned the day death. We have seen, in this world, development of a tremendous threat to us as a new color engineer, i know the limitations of atomic power. I also know that as far as the human beings are concerned, if the bond for proliferation of atomic weapons is number one, only the last few days with the election approaching has mr. Ford taken any interest in the non proliferation movement. We had a speech in the United Nations that we move here to declare a complete moratorium on the testing of all Nuclear Devices both weapons and peaceful. Any atomic fuel to a country that refuses to comply with strict control over the waist, which can be reprocessed into explosives. Ive also advocated that we stop the sale by germany and france of processing plants to pakistan and brazil, mr. Ford has moved on this. We also need to provide an adequate supply on uranium. Mr. Ford again, under pressure for the Atomic Energy lobby, has insisted that this reprocessing or rather enrichment be done by private industry and not by the existing government plans. This kind of confusion and absence of leadership has let us drift now for two years with a costly increase in threat of atomic weapons verbal the world, we now have five nations that have atomic bombs that we know about. If we continue on the most forwards policy, we will have 20 nations that will have the capability exploded atomic weapons. This is got to be stopped, major challenge that i will assume as the next president. He governor carter, earlier tonight you said, america is not strong anymore. America is not respected anymore. And i feel i must ask you, do you really believe that the United States is not the strongest country in the world . Do you believe they are not the most respected country in the world . Or side Just Campaign rhetoric . No it is not campaign rhetoric. I think that militarily we are a strong nation on earth. I think we have to stay that way and increaser capabilities to meet a potential threat. But as far as strength to commitment to principles, is far strength arrive for the unity within our country, as far as strength derive for the people of the congress, the secretary of state, the president , sharing in the evolution and carrying out of a Foreign Policy. Has fires strength derived from the respect of our own allies and friends, they assure us that they will be staunch in our commitment, that we will not deviate. And we will give them adequate attention. As far as strength derived from doing what is white, caring for the poor, providing food, to becoming the bread basket of the world and said the Arms Merchants in the world, in those respects, we are not strong. We will never be strong again overseas unless we are strong at home. And with our economy in such terrible disarray and getting worse by the month, weve got 500,000 more americans unemployed today than we had three months ago. We have two and a half million more americans out of work now than before ford took office. This kind of deterioration, economic stream, weakness were on the world. We not only have problems at home but we export those problems overseas. As far as the respect to our own people to the government, participation in the shaping of concepts and commitments, as far as the trust of our countries for the nations of the world, as far as dependence of our country a Meeting Needs and obligations to be expressed to our allies. Respect to our country, even among our potential adversaries, we are weak. The heat governor Carter Briggs about the unemployment during democratic administrations, i must remind him that we are at peace. And during the period he drags about, unemployment being low, the u. S. Was at war. Now let me correct one other comments that governor carter has made. I have recommended to the congress that we develop a uranium enrichment plant at portsmouth, ohio, which is a publicly owned u. S. Government facility. And ive indicated that the private program, which would follow on an alabama, is one that may or may not be constructed. But i am committed to the one in portsmouth, ohio. The governor also talks about morality in foreign pulse. We meet the highest standards of morality. What is more moral than piece . And the United States is at peace today. What is more moral and Foreign Policy than for the administration to take the lead in the world food conference in rome in 1974 . When the United States committed 6 Million Metric Tons of food over 60 of the food committed for the disadvantaged and underdeveloped nations of the world, the Foreign Administration wants to eradicate hunger and disease you in our undeveloped countries around the world. What is more moral for the United States, under the Ford Administration, to take the lead in southern africa, in middle east. Those are initiatives in Foreign Policy which are of the highest moral standards and that is indicative of the Foreign Policy of this country. Yeah, can we stick with morality . For a lot of people seems to cover a bunch of sins. Mr. Nixon, kissinger used to tell us that instead of morality we have to worry in the world about living with and letting live all types of governments that we didnt like. North and south korean dictator s, chilean facets, chinese communist, serene ian emperors, and they said the only way to get by the wicked world was to treat others on the basis of how they treated us and not how they treated their own people. But more recently, we seem to have taken a different tact, we seem to have decided that it is part of our business to tell the xins for instance of the way they are treating their own black people is wrong, and theyve got to change their government and put pressure on them. We are rather liberal interface to the talons on how to vote. Is this a new forward Foreign Policy in the making. Can we expect that youre wearing down to turn to south africa and force them to change their government . To interview in similar, waist and that bloodshed as you called, and chillier chilean prisoners. And thrower wait around for the values that we hold dear to . The world i believe that our Foreign Policy must express Higher Standards of morality. And the initiatives that we took in southern africa, are the best examples of what this administration is doing and will continue to do in the next four years. If the United States had not moved when we did in southern africa, there is no doubt there would have been eight acceleration of bloodshed in that tragic part of the world. If we had not taken our initiative, it is very, very possible that the government of rhodesia would have been overrun, and that the soviet union and the cubans would have dominated southern africa. So the United States, seeking to preserve the principle of Self Determination to eliminate the possibility of bloodshed to protect the rights of minority as we insisted upon the rights of the majority, i believe follows the good conscience of the American People in Foreign Policy. And i believe that we have used our skill, secretarial kissinger has done a superb job in working with the black african nations, socalled frontline nations. He has done a superb job in getting the Prime Minister of south africa, mr. Forester to agree that the time had come for a solution to the problem of rhodesia. Secretary kissinger in his meeting with Prime Minister smith of rocky jean was able to convince him that it was in the best interests of whites, as well as blacks in rhodesia to find an answer frenzy chanel government and then a majority government. This is a perfect example of the kind of leadership that the United States under this administration has taken. And i can assure you that this administration will follow that high moral principle in our future efforts in Foreign Policy, including efforts in the middle east, rights vitally important, because the middle east is the crossroads of the world. There have been more disputes, its an area where theres more volatility than any other place in the world. But because arab nations and the israelis trust the United States, we were able to take the lead in the side a agreement and i can assure you that the United States will have the leadership role in moving to war a comprehensive settlement of middle eastern problems, i hope as soon as possible. And we will do it with the highest moral principles. Mister president just to clarify there are lots of majorities in the world that feel that theyre being pushed around by minority governments. I think they can now expect to look to us, for not just good cheer but throwing our weight on in taiwan or chile to change their governments as an rhodesia . I would hope that as we move from one area of the world to another, the United States must not spread itself to then. Thats one of the problems that helped to create the circumstances in vietnam. But when we as a nation find that we are asked by the various parties, either one nation against another, or individuals within a nation, that the United States will take the leadership, and try to resolve the differences. But we take south korea as an example. I have personally told president pack that the United States doesnt condone the kind of repressive measures that he has taken in that country. But i think in all fairness and equity we have to recognize the problem that south korea has. On the north they have north korea with 500,000 well trained, will equipped troops. Theyre supported by the peoples republic, theyre supported by the soviet union. South korea faces a very delicate situation. The United States in this case in this administration has recommended a year ago and we have reiterated again this year, that the United States, south korea, north korea, and the people republic of china sit down at a conference table sit down to solve the problem of the korean peninsula. This is a Leadership Call that the United States under this administration is tearing up. And if we do, it and i think that opportunities and possibilities are getting better, we will have solved many of the internal domestic problems that exist in south korea at the present time. Governor carter. I noticed that didnt comment on the president initially. This is a typical example of many others where the administration elected established a dictatorship. This has not been a ancient history story. Last year of all those who want to south america if 5 went to the military dictatorship in chile. And the point i want to make is this. He says we have to move from one area of the world to another. Thats one of the problems with this administration socalled shuttle diplomacy. While the secretary of state in one country there are almost 150 others wondering what were going to do next. What will be the next secret agreement. We dont have comprehensive, understandable Foreign Policy that deals with real problems. What concerns me about what mr. Floyd says about unemployment insinuating that under impunity unemployment can only be held down when crown mark said that a Free Enterprise system in a democracy can only continue to exist when they are at war, are preparing for war. Chrome marks was a grandfather of communism. I dont agree with that statement. I have four dozen either. Hes put pressure on the congress and i dont believe mr. Ford would deny this. Hold on nonproliferation administration until congress would agree for eight billion Dollar Program for private industry to start producing uranium. Last but i want to make is this. He talks about peace and im thankful for peace. It is peaceful when mr. Ford went into office but he and mr. Kissinger and others tried to stop in angle and it was not the outcry of people when the secret deal was discovered that prevented and the configuration that was taking place now. Gentlemen im sorry to say we dont have time and effort to complete sequences of questions. We now have only 12 minutes left. Therefore i would like to ask for shorter questions and sure answers. We will also dropped the followup question. Each candidate may still respond of course to the others answer. Question for governor carter . Governor credible for the event the most communications i received regard panda. Would u. S. President be prepared to sign a treaty that affects the administrative and economic control of the dinners own and share defense which as i understand the position the United States took in 1974 . Here again, the panamanian question is one thats been confused by mr. Ford. He had directed his diplomatic relations representative to yield to the panamanians full sovereignty of the panama canal zone over some period of time. When mr. Reagan raises a question in florida mr. Ford not only disavowed instructions, but he also even dropped the use of the word daytime. I would never give up complete control or practical control of the panama canal. But i would continue to negotiate with the panel minions one at the initial treaty was signed back in the 19 hundreds when theodore was president panama gains we retain control as though we had sovereignty. Now i would be willing to go ahead with negotiations. I believe we can share more fully responsibilities for panama nelson with panama. I would be willing to continue to raise the payment for shipment of goods through the panama controls on. It might be willing to reduce to some degree our military in places in the pen much canals on. But i would not relinquish practical control of the pandora canal sometime in the foreseeable future. The United States must and will maintain complete access to the pandemic now. The United States must maintain a defensive capability of the pandemic canal. And the United States will maintain our National Security interest in the pandemic canal. The negotiations for the panama canal started under president johnson and continue up until the present time. I believe the negotiations should continue but i believe theyre particles that have to continue. Let me take a minute to comment on something that the governor carter said. Nonproliferation in may of 1975, i call for a comfort of nuclear supplier. That conference has met six times. In may of this year governor carter took the First Initiative approximately 12 months after i had taken my initiative a year ago. A question for president ford. A report suggesting that you shot from the hip and the mission and the shoot ignore diplomatic messages saying that a peaceful solution was in prospect. Why dont you do more diplomatically at the time . Little question. Did the white house try to prevent the release of that report . The white house didnt preventable us of that report. On july 12th of this year we give full permission for the release of that report. I was very disappointed in the fact that the gao released a report because i think it interjected political partisan politics at the time. Let me come down the report. Someone who sits at washington d. C. 18 months after the incident can be a very good grandstand quarterback. And let me make another observation. This morning i got a call from the skipper of the he was furious because he told me that it was the action of me president ford that saved the lives of the crew of the and i can assure you that if we hadnt taken the strong and forceful action that we did, we would have been criticized very, very severely for sitting back and not moving. Captain miller is thankful. The crew is thankful. We did the right thing. It seems to me that those who sit inside washington 18 months after the incident at the best judges of the decisionmaking process that had to be made by the National Security council and by myself at the time the incident was developing in the pacific. Let me assure you that we made every possible overture to the peoples republic of china. And through them to the cambodian government. We made a diplomatic protest to the government through the United Nations. Every diplomatic means was utilized but at the same time i have a responsibility, so did the National Security council to meet the problem at hand. And we handle it responsibly. And i think captain millers response is to that effect. Governor carter. Im reluctant to comment. I havent read it. I think the American People have only one problem. But the facts about be given to them accurately and completely. Mr. Ford has been there for 18 months. He had the facts released today i believe on behalf of the incident. I understand that the report today is accurate. Mr. Ford has said i believe that it was accurate. That the white house made no attempt to block i dont know if thats exactly accurate or not. I understand that the department of state and the Defense Department have approved the accuracy of todays report and yesterdays report, and offer the National Security agency. I dont know what was right and what was wrong and what was done. Philly thing that i believe is that whatever the knowledge was mr. Ford had, should have been given to the American People 18 months ago. When the incident occurred. This is what the American People want. Would something happens that endangers our security, or when something happens that threatens our stature and the world, when the American People are endangered by the actions of a foreign country we obviously have to move progressively and quickly to rescue them. Half of the immediate action is taken, i believe the president has an obligation to tell people the truth, and not wait 18 months. Gentlemen, at this time we have time for only two short questions. Mr. Wrinkle, a question for governor carter. If the carter price of gaining influence among the arabs is closing our eyes a little bit to their boycott against israel, how would you handle that . I believe that the boycott of American Businesses by the arab countries because those businesses trade with israel, or because they have American Jews who are owners of the company is an absolute disgrace, this is the first time in the history of our country, when we have a foreign country, circumvent or change our bill of rights, i will do everything i can as president to stop the boycott of American Businesses by arab countries. It is not a matter of diplomacy or trade with me, it is a matter of morality, i do not believe that arab countries will pursue it when we have a strong president who will protect their take ruddy of our and protect people who happen to be jews. It may be catholics, baptist who are threatened by a foreign country. We understand and i think it is a disgrace that mr. Fords administration who that would have revealed every instance of the boycott and prevented the boycott from continuing. President . Ford again, governor carter is inaccurate. The arab boycott action was first taken in 1952 and in november of 1975, i was the first president to order the executive branch to take action, affirmative action, through the department of commerce and other cabinet departments, to make certain that no American Business man or organization should discriminate against jews because of an era boycott. I might add, might ministration, and i am very proud of it, is the First Administration that has taken an anti trust action against companies in this country that have allegedly cooperated with the arab boycott, it just monday of this week, i signed a tax bill that included an amendment that would prevent companies in the u. S. From taking a tax detection if they have an any way, whatsoever cooperated with the arab boycott. At last week when we are trying to get that exported act through the contrasts my administration went to capitol hill and try to convince the house and the senate that we should have an amendment on that legislation which would take strong and effective action against those participating or cooperating with the arab boycott. One other point, because the congress failed to act, im going to announce tomorrow that the department of commerce will disclose those companies that have participated in the arab boycott, this is something that we can do but congress filled to do it and we intend to do it. A very brief question fork up president ford. If you get the accounting of missing an action that you want from North Vietnam, from vietnam, im sorry. Would you then be prepared to reopen negotiations . Let me restate my policy, as long as vietnam, North Vietnam does not give us a full and complete account of missing in action, i will never go along with the admission that vietnam be a part of the United Nations. If they give us a bona fide, complete accounting of the 800 mia, i believe the United States should begin negotiations for the admission of vietnam to the United Nations. But not until they have given us the full accounting of our mia. One of the most era embarrassing failures of the Ford Administration, one that touches on human rights, is his refusal to appoint a president ial commission to go to vietnam, to go to laos, to go to cambodia and try to take for the release of information about those who are missing an action in those wars. This is what families want. So far mr. Ford is not on it. Weve had several fragmentary efforts by members of the congress and by private citizens. Several months ago the vietnam government said, we are ready to sit down and negotiate for a release of information on mias. So far, mr. Ford has not responded. I also would never normalize relationships with vietnam nor permit them to join the United Nations, until theyve taken this action. But thats not enough, we need to have an active and aggressive action on part of the president , the leader of this country, to seek out every possible way to get that information which is kept mia families in despair and out. Mr. Ford has just not done. It that completes the questioning for this evening, each candidate has up to three minutes for a closing statement. It was determined by the toss of a coin that governor carter would take the first question. And he now goes first with his closing remarks. Governor. Kurdia the purpose of this debates that and the outcome of the election would determine three basic things, leadership, upholding the principles of our country, and proper priorities and commitments for the futura. This election will also determine what kind of world we leverage filled run. Will it be a nightmare world threatened with the proliferation of atomic bombs . Not just in five major countries, but dozens of smaller countries that have been permitted to build atomic weapons because of a failure of our top leadership, stop proliferation. Will we have a world of hunger and hatred . And will we be living in an orange cap, stripped of our friendship and allies . Hiding behind a tight defense thats been drawn in around us because we are fearful of the outside world. Will we have a government of secrecy that excludes the American People from participation and making basic decisions and therefore covers up mistakes and makes it possible for our government, our government, to depart for the principles of our constitution bill rates . Or will we have a world of peace, with the threat of atomic weapons eliminated, with full trade with people at work, inflation control, openness government, people will be proud once again. Congress. Citizens. President. Secretary of state all of these working in harmony and unity to a common future. Where are people have enough to eat at a world where we care about those who dont. Can we become a bread basket for the world its of Arms Merchant of the world. I believe we can and we ought to. We have been heard in recent years, and this country, and the aftermath of vietnam, cambodia, chile, pakistan, angela, watergate era, cia, we have been hurt. Our people feel that we have lost something precious. Thats not necessary. I want to see our nation return to a posture and image and a standard to make us proud once again. I remember the world of nato and the world of and the world of the marshall plan, the world of the peace corps. Why cant we have that once again . We ought to be a beacon for a nation to search for peace and who search for freedom, individual liberty, basic human rights. We havent been lately. We can be once again. Well never have that world leadership until we are strong at home. And we can have that strength of we return to the basic principles. It should not be a strength of bombast and stretch and threats, it should be a quiet strength. Based on integrity over people. The greatest nation on earth. As we have seen tonight, Foreign Policy and defense policy are difficult and complex issues. We can debate numbers, we can debate one decision or another. But there are two things which cannot be debated. Experience and results. In the last two years, i have made policy decisions involving longrange difficulties impulses. And maybe daytoday judgments, not only as president of the United States, but as the leader of the free world area. What is the result of that leadership . America is strong, america is free, america is respected. Not a single Young American today is fighting or dying on any foreign battlefield. America is at peace with freedom. Thank you and goodnight. Thank you president forward. Thank you governor carter. I also want to thank our questioners and the audience here this evening. The third and final debate between president ford and governor carter will take place on october the 22nd at 9 30 pm Eastern Daylight Time on the campus of in williamsburg virginia. The subject matter will cover all issues. The debates are sponsored by the league of Women Voters Education Fund to help voters become better informed on the issues and to generate greater voter turnout in the november election. Now from the palace of fine arts theater in San Francisco goodnight. [applause] weeknights this month on American History tv relocate past president ial debates. Tuesday night we look at the debates of 1980 and 1884. We will show the only debate from 1980 between incumbent president carter and former democratic governor reagan the talk about in spending inner cities and the iran hostage crisis. Then from 1980 for the second and final debate between incumbent president Ronald Reagan and former president roger mondale. Watch tuesday night starting at 8 pm eastern and enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan 3. Up next on american