President ial debates. Im hale bruno from abc news and i will be moderating. The participants are dan quayle. [ applause ] democratic senator al gore. And retired vice admiral james stockdale. He is with the independent candidate ross perot. Now the ground rules for fonts debate, each can dlat have two plnts for an opening. This will be followed by a five minute constitution neither which they can ask questions of each other if they so choose. The order of response has been determined by a drawing. Our radio and tv audience should know they were given an equal allocation of seats for supporters. So could the audience please refrain from applause once the debate is under way been that plea from your moderator, lets get started. Good evening, its great to be here in atlanta for this debate where america will be showcased to the world. It is appropriate because in a real sense our constitution this evening will be about what kind of a nation we want to be four years from now. Its a pleasure to be with my two other scan dates today. Mr. Sto stockdale, especially an honor. Mr. Vice president , dan, if i may, it was 16 years ago that you and i went to congress on the first day together. Ly make you a deal this evening. If you dont try to compare george bush to harry truman i wont compare you to jack kennedy. Remember the last time someone compared themselves to jack kennedy. Harry truman its worth remembering assumed the presidency. Only one of my occasions when fate thrust a Vice President into the oval office in a time of crisis. It is something to think about during the debate this evening. But our real sclugs be about change. Bill clinton and i stand for change because we dont believe our nation can stand four more years of what we have. When the recession came they were caught like deer in headlights. Blinded to the suffering and pain of bankruptcies and people who are unemployed. We have a environmental crisis, a Health Insurance crisis, substandard education, it is time for a change. Bill clinton and i want to get our country moving forward again. Put our people back to work, and create a Bright Future for the United States of america. Thank you, okay. The next statement from Vice President quayle. This is 1992, bill clinton is running against president george bush. There are two things im going to stress. One bill clintons economic plan and his agenda will make matters much, much worsz. He will raise your taxes, he will increase spending, make government bigger, and jobs will be lost. Second bill clinton does not have the strength nor the character to be president of the United States. Let us look at the agendas. President bush wants to hold the line on taxes. We want to reform the legal system because it is too costly and bill clinton wants the status quo. Bill clinton wants to ration health care. He wants to empower government, we want to empower people. At some time in the next four years there will be a crisis. There will be an International Crisis. I cant tell you where it will be or what are the circumstances, but it will happen. We need a president that has the experience that has been tested and has the incredible ability to handle the crisis. The choice is yours. You need to have a president you can trust. Can you really trust bill clinton . Admiral stockdale, your opening statement, please . Who am i . Why am i here . Im not a politician. Everybody knows that, so dont expect me to use the language of the washington insider. 37 years in the navy an only one in washington. And now im an academic. The centerpiece of my life was the vietnam war. I was there the day it started. I lead the first bombing raid against north vietnam. I was there the day it ended, and i was there for everything in between. Ten years, aerial combat, and torture. I know things about the vietnam war better than anybody in the world. I know some things about the vietnam war better than everybody in the world. And i know how american governments can be courageous and how they can be coward. That is important. Thats one thing im an insider on. I was the leader of the underground of the machineameri pilots that were shot down and impri imprisoned in north vietnam. The american character displayed in those jails were a thing of beauty. I look back on those years as the beginning of wisdom. Learning everything that a man can clulearn. The vulnerabilities and the strengths that are ours as americans. Why am i here tonight . Im here because because i have in my brain, and in my heart what it takes to lead america through tough times. Thank you, admiral. I thought since youre running for Vice President that we ought to start by talking about the Vice President si itself. The Vice President prides ovesir the snathd, but it a president should die in office or is unable to serve, the Vice President automatically becomes president and that has happened five times in this century. So the proposition on the table for you is this. What role would each of you like to play as president , what areas interest you, and what are your qualifications to serve if net. Necessary. I suppose president quayle, you could tell us. Qualifications. I have been there. I have been Vice President for years. Being elected to the congress together in 1976. I have done the job. You never know what your role will be from time to time. And let me give you an example of where i was tested under fire nanny a crisis. President bush was flying to malta. It was the first meeting between president bush and president gorbachov. A coup broke out in the philippines. I had to go to the situation room. I made the recommendation to the president. The president made the decision. The situation was ended. I have been there. And one other thing that qualifies you. Nobody ever criticized me of not having strong beliefs. My association with mr. Perot is a very personal one. As i have stood in and finally taken his running mate position, he has granted me total autonomy. Im sure that he would make me a partner in divisions, in making decisions about the way to handle health care, the way to get the economy back on its feet again in every way. I have not had the experience of these gentleman, but to be any more specific, but i know i have his trust. And i intend to act in a way to keep that situation alive. Thank you. If were successful in our efforts to gain your trust and lead this nation we will Work Together to put our country back on the right track again. The experience that they have been talking about is the worst since the Great Depression. How long can we continue with trickle down economics when the record of failure is so abundantly clear. Discussions of the Vice President tend to focus on the crisis u during which a Vice President is thrust into the office. And onethird have been served and have been moved into the white house. But the team work and partnership beforehand and hopefully that situation never happens, the way we Work Together in this campaign is one sample. I would like to say in response to Vice President quayle, he talked about malta and the philippines, george bush has concentrated on every other country in the world, when will you start worrying about our people here and get our country moving again. Referee please do not applause, audience. It takes time from the candidates. Now we have five minutes for discussion. Were not going to raise faxes to create new jobs. We have a plan to create new jobs. The question dealt with qualifications. Team work and Partnership May be fine in the congress, senator gore. Thats what it is all about, but when youre president of the United States or when youre Vice President and you have to fill in like i did, you have to make a decision. You have to make up your mind. Bill clinton said this about the persian gulf war. I agreed with the argumentsover the minority. You have to make a decision. You cannot sit there on an International Crisis and say on one hand this is okay and on the other hand this is okay. You to make the decision. Admiral, this is your chance to respond yet. I thought this was an open session, i didnt have anything to add to his ly jump in. I thought anyone can jump in when they want to. Whatever pleases you is fine. I want admiral stockdales time. This is not the senate. Where you can trade off time, go ahead. Ill let you figure out the rules, and i still dont have answer toons my question. When will you start worrying about this. Why doesnt the Democratic Congress pass let him say his thought and then you come in. We have been working on trickle down economics for 12 years now and you support it to the last drop and talking about the point of concentrating on every other country in the world, when george bush took former secretary of state baker outover the state department and put him in charge of the campaign, he said that for these last four years, george bush was working on the problems of the rest of the world and in the next four years he would target america. I want you to know that we really appreciate that but we will target america from day one. We wont wait four years until we concentrate on the problems in this country. We really celebrated how much we can do when he concentrates. Its time we have a president like fwhakt will concentrate and work on the problems of real people in this country. Our country is something that we cannot continue families the way that bush and quayle have done and waiting for it to work. How much longer will it take for trickle down economics to work in your theory . Well have plenty of time to talk about trickle down government which youre for. The question is which you have failed to address is why is bill clinton qualified to be president of the United States. You talked about jim baker, you talked about the worst economy in 50 years. I am happy to answer that. I want to go back and you asked me a question and i will answer yours. I have not asked a question i made a statement that you have not told us why he is qualified to be president of the United States. I pointed out what he said about the persian gulf war. You you are going to answer your question . Im making a statement and thenly answer it. Can we give admiral stockdale a chance . This is the persian gulf war. He said if it is a close vote i will vote with the majority but i agree with the minority. I hope that america is listening very closely to this debate tonight. I think america is seeing right now the reason why this nation is in gridlock. [ applause ] the trickle downs and the tax spends and whatever you want to call them are at points where we cant get this economy going over here. We have dan who is a president that will take eight years to balance the budget, and on my left the senator whose boss is going to get it halfway blaaland it in four years. Ross perot will balance it five years in length from start to finish. People of the nonprofessional category who are just sick of this terrible thing that is happening to the country. And we have a man who knows how to fix it and im working for him. I was a little bit worried there might not be a free flowing discussion tonight. Thanks for lets move on to the economy. Specifically the economy talked about at great length the other night in the president ial debate. Lets talk about a very particular aspect of the economy which is adequating people back to work. For the average person the fear is losing their jobs, it means a loss of a home, a structure of a family security. We went back to work and how long will it take . The life blood of our economy they are boar riing and the money markets and the private investors that are not getting their fair share. What we do is work on that budget by we need start borrowing less money and getting more investment money on the street through interpret neuros and factories and manufacturing goods here in this country again. Thats my answer. Okay, senator gore . Bill clintons top priority is putting america back to work. We will create good, high waged jobs for our people the way he has done in his state. He created high wage manufacturing jobs at ten times the national average. Including the bushquayle labor department. Bill clintons has bun number one in the rekrags of jobs. In the contrast, in the nation as a whole in the least five years, it is the First Time Since the president of of Herbert Hoover that we have gone for a fouryear period with fewer jobs than we had at the beginning. And look at manufacturing. We have lost 1. 4 million jobs in manufacturing under george bush and dan quayle. They have even, we learned, taken our tax dollars and subsidized the moving of u. S. Factories to Foreign Countries. Dont deny it because 60 minutes, nightline and other sources have investigated this. When will you stop shutting down factories and moving dont always believe what you see on television. Let me tell you the media have been wrong before. We have never subsidized any country or any company to move from the United States to latin america. You know full well the caribbean based initiative. You have supported that. That is a program there. I voted against it. You voted for it. Well have a lot of interesting debate after this debate. Well be glad to furnish the press if theyre interested on his voting record. It is a bad economy. It is a tough economy. And who, what are you going to do about it . You want to raise taxes and spending. How does that help Small Business . How does that help the farmer . How does that help the consumer . I submit to you that raising taxes will make matters much, much worse. Admiral, its your turn to start the discussion. We have to clean out the barn if i may quote my boss and start getting this investment money on the streets so we can get and encourage entrepreneurs to build fact voirs. We the program is out there, it s a put together thang requires some sacrifice, but not excessive we can move at a fiveyear clip to put us back where we can start over and get this nation straightenned out. Senator gore, getting people back to work. The difference between the perot plan and the clinton plan, is that perots plan focuses on balancing the budget and reducing the budget deficit. The danger is that if that is the only danger going back to a worse recession. We have a fiveyear detailed plan. We want to create good jobs and eliminate the investment deficit to get our economy moving forward again. We have a 20 billion Infrastructure Fund to raet a nationwide network of highspeed rail and what are called information super highways to open up a whole universe of knowledge for our young people and to help our universities and companies that rely on new advances in the information revolution. We also have tax incentives for investment in job creating activities. Not the kind of encouragement for shortterm rip offs. But i want to return and say one more time that you have used our tax collars to subsidize the recruitment of u. S. Companies to move overseas in tennessee, not very far from my home, a factory was shut downright there when they swore solicited and the replacement workers in a foreign country were trained with our tax dollars. When are you going to stop that program . We do not have any program that encourages companies to close down here and to go and invest in foreign soil. That is absolutely outrageouout. We have global competition. We have we want businesss to expand. Do you realize, senator, every job overseas there are three back home to support that. We would never support someone closing down a factory here. It is going on right now. It happened in tennessee. When george bush when to nashville the employees that lost their jobs asked to meet with them. I talked with them. Let me tell you what theyre feeling. They want to know when theyre going to get new jobs when their jobs were destroyed and their 1. 4 Million Manufacturing jobs that were lost because of the policies of you and george bush. Do you seriously believe that we ought to continue the same policies that have created the worst economy since the Great Depression . I hope that when you talked to those people you said and the first thing that bill clinton and i are going to do is raise 150 billion in new taxes. That is wrong. That is part of your plan. You know what youre doing. Youre pulling a clinton. Do you know what a clinton is . It is when he says one thing one day and another thing the next day. You try have both sides of the issue. Youre proposing 150 billion in new taxes. And i hope you talk to the people in tennessee and you can say it all you want but it doesnt make it true. You were going to increase spending. Im sure what you didnt talk to him about is how we would reform the Health Care System. He wants to go out and reform the Health Care System so eve american will have available insurance. Im sure you didnt talk about legal reform. You are talking about foreign competition. Why should an American Company have to spend 15 to 20 times cop paired to a company in japan or germany or somewhere else. We have liability on capitol hill that will create jobs and the Democratic Congress wont pass it. I think it is time to move on to your next topic. All three of you have expertise in the defense and armed forces. Vice president gore and senator quayle was on the senate committee. With the end of the cold war there are major cuts that started in the Defense Budget, but this country has a long history neglecting needs in past time. How much is a defense cut is safe. What happens to the people forced to leave the military services or they lose their jobs because theyre working in Defense Industries . We support a strong nation nad defense. We have fought for change within the Democratic Party and within the country. In the after math of the cold war, the cold war defense has changed for somewhat. George bush wants to maintain 150 american sold juiers in eur. We agree with so many military experts that believe it is time for the european thats are so much realityier now and more powerful than they were to start picking up little more of that tap themselves and not rely so exclusively on the United States taxpayers. We believe that we can make savings in our Defense Budget and at the same time improve our national security. For those affected by the cut backs, the difference is that bill clinton and i have a defense conversion program. Those that won the cold war will not be left out in the cold. We want to put them to work building an infrastructure and an economy near this country for the 90s and the next century. President quayle. We won the cold war because we invested in our military. We didnt win we won the cold war because america had the political will and made the right decisions. We can make the cuts in defense, and we have. 60 billion defense cut is going to cut a lot of jobs. Yes were making a conversion, and question go go to a civil space, but let me say this, we would not have won the cold war if we listened to senator gore and his crowd and supported a nuclear freeze. If you would have supported that attitude, we would not have won the cold war. We won the cold war because we invested and we went forward. The numbers, in terms of the dollar cuts as they stand on our plans now show us almost the same as the Vice President s. But we note that governor clintons plan is almost twice the cut as either one of us. I have been through the end of World War Two and a surprise beginning of korea to see how we have it cost us more money to cut the Defense Budget in the first place. So i think, you know, i think that should be guyeyed with gre suspicion. People kicking the props out from under our grand military establishment prematurely. There is other differences between the approach between him and me, and we want to focus our interests, economic and military more to the pacific. Under the details we have more defense cuts than george bush and dan quayle. George bush and john white have endorsed the economic aspects of the plan. Now when i heart george bush say at the con vevention in houstont made us wonder who the we was. This was not something that just came suddenly. It started with harry truman and it is a bipartisan effort from the and i want to add one other thing. In the debate a few nights ago i think president bush just made a very serious misstatement of fact. It was kind of a little lecture that he gave to ross perot. He said those teams are gone. He reached a deal to completely remove him so we can all sleep safely without any fear tonight. You know what . They thought they were going to get that deal, but when he took the person in charge of the negotiations out of the state department and hut him in charge of the reelection campaign, the deal unravelled and flow is no start to the deal at all. There are serious problems. Isnt there a fact that every single one of those teams is still there in the silos and under the start one treaty. Only half of the silos are supposed to be dismantled and there is no deal to get the other half. Didnt the president make a mistake, sir . He has a commitment to eliminate the ssa teams. Is it an agreement . Its a commitment. Oh, so you said he is done. Let him talk, senator. Lighten up, al. Lets talk about getting agreements. The president of the United States doesnt just negotiate with your friends in congress. The president of the United States deals on the international scene. We has a deal with the president of russia and a deal with the president of germany. He has to deal with a whole host of leaders around the world. This is a fundamental problem with bill clinton. He is its the in fact he does not tell the know the difference. We find out that he did. These are inconsistencies, bill clinton has trouble telling the truth. He will have a different time dealing with someone like the president , or president cole. Truth and integrity are prerequisites. He said read my lips, no new taxes. Hold on. Let me finish. He also said he want today be the environmental president. Then he went on to say he want today be the education president. Then he said nap is not a pledge. Two weeks ago, after the election if you win james baker will go back to be secretary of state. James bake ser is going to be i charge of domestic policy. What is your role in this going to be . Well have to move on to another topic. Im sorry mr. Vice president. Youll get plenty of chance to respond, dont worry. Okay, youre the moderator, i was under the assumption that if someone said Something Like that we can respond. Youll have a chance. I see what is happening here we throw out the topic and we drift but that is okay because i think is making for a healthy exchange. The only thing that i ask of you, gentlemen, is that when we get to the discussion period whoever talks first be con s considerate of the others. You tend to phil bfilibuster. Well get away from controversy. Everyone want as safe and clean environment. There is an ongoing conflict between Environmental Protection and a need for growth and jobs. The point on the table is how do you resolve this conflict for the protection of the environment, growth in jobs, and why has it taken so long to deal with basic problems like toxic waste dumps, clean air. I dont have a choice for the jobs, it is an abundance record. Clean air because of the leadership of george bush. It is the most comprehensive Clean Air Act in our history. We are firmly behind preserving the environment and we have a good record on which to stand. What will be their position when it comes to the environment . I say it is a false choice. You ought to ask somebody in mitigating circumstances, a uaw work in michigan if they think that increasing standards are a good idea. You ought to talk to the coal miners that are talking about a coal tax. The choice is not environment or jobs. With prudent policied we can have both. I red senator gores book about the environment, and i dont know how he could pay for his proposals you know the Marshall Plan of environment and so forth. And also i am told by some experts that the things that he fears most may not be all that dangerous according to some scientists. You can over do, im told, environmental cleaning up. If you purify the pond, the water lilies die. You know i love this planet, and i want it to stay here, but i dont like to have it the private property of fanatics that want to over do this thing. Senator gore . Bill clinton and i think question create millions of new jobs by leading the environmental revolution. You know japan and germany are both openly saying to the world that the biggest new market in World Business is that without environmental destruction. Why is the Japanese Business organization the largest one they have arguing for tougher environmental standards. Why is their trade organization calling on all trade organizations to exceed by as much as possible every country in which theyre operating. Maybe theyre just dumb about big operation. Or maybe they know something. That the future will call for greater environmental efficiency. This is an issue that touches my basic values. Im taught in my religious tradition that were given dominion over the earth, but were kriered to be good stewargues. Were not doing that now. They have cutted the Clean Air Act. They have broken his ledge to be the environmental president. Bill clinton and i will change that. Okay, a discussion period now. Again leave time for each other, please. Vice president quayle go ahead. Im tempted to yield to admiral stockdale on this. The fact of the matter is that one of the proposal thats senator gore suggested is to have the taxpayers of america spend 100 billion a year on environmental projects in Foreign Countries senator it is in your book on page 304. It is there. No it is not. I wanted to bringle gore book tonight because i figured he would pull a bill clinton on me and he has. He will disavow what is in his book. It comes out to 100 billion of foreign aid for environmental projects. How are we going to pay for an extra 100 bill. Billion. I appreciate you reading my book, but you have it wrong. Well find out let the senator talk. There is no such proposal. What i called upon is a cooperative effort by the United States and europe and asia to Work Together in opening up new markets throughout the world for the new technology thats are necessary in order to reconcile the imperatives with the imperatives of Environmental Protection. Take mexico city for example. Theyre shutting down factories because theyre choking to death on air pollution. Theyre banning automobiles on some days of the week. What they want is not new laser guided missile systems. They dont want to die lute the air and the water but allow them to have a decent standard of living fir their people. Their experts say the population is expanding worldwide. As much as one billion people every ten years. We cannot stick our heads in the stand and pretend that we do not face a Global Environmental crisis. We are going to be able to create jobs as japan and germany are planning to do now if we have the guts to lead. The auto industry, the timber industry, there have been 250,000 jobs lost in the in the raganbush years. What they like to do is point the finger of blame with one hand and hand out pink slips with the other hand. They have done a poor job with the economy and the environment. It is time for a change. I know i read where senator gores mentor disagreed with some of the Scientific Data that is in his book, how do you respond to those criticisms of that sort . Do you take this into act . I deny it. Let me respond. Thank you for saying that. Ewe talking about roger rivell. His family wrote a lengthy letter saying how terribly he had been misquoted and had his content taken out of context just before the day he died. Just before he died he coauthored an article that had statements taken completely out of context. In fact the vast majority of the worlds scientists, and they have worked on this extentatively believe that we must have an effort to gas up to the problems we face with the environment. And if we just stick our heads in the hand and pretend that it is not real were not doing ourselves a favor. Were telling our children that we were not willing to face up to this obligation. Particularly when question do it while we create jobs in the process. Go ahead, mr. Vice president , there is still time, but not much. In the book to suggest taxes on timber, and everything and i dont think that is the way to solve our environmental problems. You seem to say that it could be worse by impacting the standards, yes, the autoindustry hurting. And miles a gallon like you and bill clinton are suggesting will put 300,000 people out of work. Lets move on now. I would like to remind the audience of one thing. Trying to stop you from applauding may be a lost cause. I didnt say anything about hissing, but i do think it is discourteous. There is no call for that and it reflects badly on the candidate youre supporting, so lets knock that off. Lets go on to health care. Health care protection has become a necessity of life in our society, yet millions of americans are not insured. And the cost of medical treatment is practically out of control. How do you propose to control these costs, and how are you going to provide access to health care for every american . Lets see, whose turn is it to go now . I think its admiral stockdales turn to go first. Go ahead. Well, we have excellent Technical Health care, but we dont administer it very well. And the escalating costs top any other budget danger in the on the horizon, i think. And what mr. Perot suggested is that we try to look at the incentive incentives. The incentives in our current way of doing business are whats killing us. There is no incentive for a hypochondriac not to go to medical care every day. There is no incentive for a doctor to curtail the expensive tests because hes under threat of malpractice lawyers. And so we just have a web of wrong way incentives that has to be changed by some people who are in the medical profession and some other crafty people who know how to write contracts to change incentives, or get the incentives situation under control. Senator gore. Bill clinton and i believe that if a criminal has a right to a lawyer, every American Family ought to have the right to see a doctor of their own choosing when they need to see a doctor. There are almost 40 million americans who work fulltime today and yet have no Health Insurance whatsoever. We are proposing to change that. Not with a governmentrun plan, not with new taxes, but with a new approach called managed competition. We are going to provide a standard Health Insurance package provided by private Insurance Companies and eliminate the duplication and red tape and overlap, and we are going to have cost controls to eliminate the unnecessary procedures that are costing so much money today. There was a Bipartisan Commission evenly divided between republicans and democrats who looked at our plan and the bushquayle. They said ours would save tens of millions of dollars and cover every american. The bushquayle plan will cost a lot of money and still leave many people uninsured. What i want to know is why did he wait three or four years before finally putting out a proposal before the election and he still hasnt introduced it to congress . Why the long wait, dan . Vice president . Al, president bush has had his Health Care Agenda on capitol hill for eight months, hes had part of it up there for years. You talk about increased costs the president has had on capitol hill, malpractice for several years. Heal defensive medicine costs 7 billion a year, defensive testing in the case of a lawsuit. Wouldnt that be nice to put 7 billion were putting into the legal system and put it in Preventive Health care or Womens Health care or something besides trial lawyers . But no, you dont want to drive down the Health Care System to drive down the costs of malpractice, your program is to ration health care. You said in your statement to see a doctor when you want to see a doctor. When you start rationing health care, there is going to be a waiting line to see a doctor unless its an emergency. Remember when we rationed energy in this country . Waiting lines at the gasoline sta stations. The same thing would happen when you ration health care. The president s deal is for rationing production in the private Health Care Sector and making Health Care Affordable and available to every single american. Admiral stockdale, would you like to start the discussion period . Well, im out of ammunition on this. Let me talk now. Ive got i a couple things. We still didnt get an answer to the question of why george bush waited three and a half years during the national Health Insurance crisis before he even made a proposal. And it still hasnt been submitted to congress in the form of legislation. I also want to respond to the question about malpractice. Do you know which state has the lowest malpractice premiums in the entire country . Bill clintons arkansas does. Partly because he has passed reform measures limiting the time during which malpractice suits can be filed. In fact, claims generally have fallen 10 under bill clinton there. But, you know, thats not the reason for this Health Insurance crisis. The reason is weve had absolutely no leadership. Let me tell you about a friend of mine named Mitch Philpot from marietta, georgia not far from here who tip and i met at Johns Hopkins hospital. Their son brett was in the bed next to our son, and they couldnt pay their medical bills. They used to live in atlanta, but they lost their house. And while they were there, both mitch and his wife lost their jobs because they could not get unpaid leave. We pass legislation to give family leave under circumstances like that, exempting Small Business. How can you talk about family values, dan, and twice veto the family medical leave act . [ applause ] pass our family leave act because it goes to Small Businesses where the major problem is. Your proposal excluded Small Business. Thats the problem. Now let me talk about health care did you require it . Its a free discussion. My turn. Take a breath out. Inhale. Its a free discussion. Did you require family leave in that legislation, yes or no . We offered incentives to Small Businesses. Yes or no . Were Small Businesses exempted under your proposal . Yes. Did you require it of anyone . Im getting back to the topic because he obviously doesnt want to talk about Health Insurance or health care which you addressed. I was absolutely i guess i shouldnt say that. Another clinton. You pulled another clinton on me because here you go again. Medical malpractice legislation has been before the congress of the United States, and you try to convince the American People that bill clinton is for torte reform . The Biggest Campaign contributors to your campaign are the trial lawyers of america. We have the letter, and well release it to the media if the media is interested, where the head of the Trial Lawyers Association basically said bill clinton is in their back pocket, that bill clinton proposes torte reform, because bill clinton is not for torte reform. I want to know where he stands on insurance. When he campaigns in new hampshire, he says, im for the pay or play Health Insurance. Thats a 7 to 9 payroll tax on every worker in america that participants in this program. Then all of a sudden, this summer, he says, oh, im not for a pay or play. Here we go again, bill clinton, one day hes for pay and plor p the next day hes against pay or play. He said, im for choice and education. Then he goes to the Teachers Union and says, sorry, im not for choice in education because you wont let me be for choice in education. Term limits. Its ridiculous that you limit the terms of the president , but thats another subject. Were fixing to limit one. Its not going to be mine, its going to be people like you and the rest of those men on capitol hill. Thats what were talking about. As you well know, you have term limits for president , you dont have term limits for congress, and i think its absolutely ridiculous that we dont. Here goes bill clinton again. Term limits, thats an interesting idea, i think i might be in favor of that. Then his democratic friends in congress say, no, bill, you cant be for that. Bill clinton has trouble telling the truth. You have to tell the truth. I want to respond, if i might. Go, senator, quickly. In response to my question before that long laundry list, he said that they had their own family leave proposal. It was just like the proposal of your party back when Social Security was first proposed. You said, were for it as long as its voluntary. Same with medicare. You said, were for it so long as its voluntary. Civil rights . Were for it so long as its voluntary. Senator, i have to ask you to wrap this up. Thank you. Family leave should be required. Okay, thanks. Coming out of health care, again trying to avoid controversy, lets talk about the abortion debate. Abortion rights has been a bitter controversy in this country for almost 20 years. Its been heightened by the recent Supreme Court decisions. So ill make it very simple in this question. Where do each of you stand on the issue . What action will your president S Administration take on the abortion question . Will it be a factor in the appointment of federal judges, especially to the Supreme Court . And i believe that senator gore goes first. Bill clinton and i support the right of a woman to choose. [ applause ] that doesnt mean were proabortion. In fact, we believe there are way too many abortions in this country, and the way to reduce them is by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, not vetoing Family Planning legislation the way george bush has consistently done. The reason we are prochoice and in favor of a womans right to privacy is because we believe that during the early stages of a pregnancy, the government has no business coming in and ordering a woman to do what the government thinks is best. What dan quayle and george bush and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson think is the right decision in a given set of circumstances is their privilege. But dont have the Government Order a woman to do what they think is the right thing to do. We ought to be able to build more Common Ground among those who describe themselves as prochoice and prolife in efforts to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. But, dan, you can clear this up very simply by repeating after me. I support the right of a woman to choose. Can you say that . Vice president quayle, your turn. This touches americans deeply. I happen to be prolife. Ive been prolife for my 16 years in public life. My objective and the president s objective is to try to reduce abortions in this country. We have 1. 6 million abortions. We have more abortions in washington, d. C. Than we do live births. Why shouldnt we have more reflection upon the issue before the decision of abortion is made . I would hope that we would agree upon that, Something Like a 24hour waiting period, parental notification. I was in los angeles recently and i talked to a woman who told me that she had an abortion when she was 17 years of age. Looking back on that, she said it was a mistake. And she said, i wished at that time that i was going through this difficult time that i had counseling to talk about the postabortion trauma and talk about adoption rather than abortion. Because if i had had that discussion, i would have had the child. Lets not forget that every abortion stops a beating heart. I think we have far too many abortions in this country of ours. Admiral stockdale. I believe that a woman owns her body and what she does with it is her own business, period. [ applause ] period. Thats it . I, too, abhor abortions, but i dont think they should be made illegal, and i dont think its a political issue. I think its a privacy issue. [ applause ] admiral, you caught me by surprise. Lets go ahead with the discussion on this issue. Senator gore . Well, you notice in his response that dan did not say i support the right of a woman to choose. That is because he and george bush have turned over their party to pat buchanan and Phyllis Schafley who have endorsed him to make a platform that makes all abortions illegal under any circumstances regardless of what has led to that decision by a woman, even in cases of rape and incest. Their platform requires that a woman be penalized, that she not be allowed to make a choice if she believes, in consultation with her family, her doctor, and others, whoever she chooses, that she wants to have an abortion after rape or incest. They make it completely illegal what about a waiting period . Let me finish this briefly. Now you want to waffle around on it and give the impression that maybe you dont really mean what you say. But, again, you can clear it up by simply repeating, i support the right of a woman to choose. Say it. Let him say it himself. Go ahead, Vice President. Thank you. Talk about waffling around. This issue is a very important issue. It has been debated throughout your public life and throughout my public life. And one thing i dont think its wise to do, and that is to change your position. At one time and most of the time in the house of representatives, you had a prolife position. Thats simply not true. In 1987, you wrote a letter, and well pass this out, you wrote a letter saying you oppose taxpayer funding of abortion. In some circumstances. Youre going to qualify it now. And i still do. Bill clinton, when he was governor of arkansas, also worked with the right to life people and supported right to life positions and now he has changed. Talk about waffling around. This is the typical type of clinton response, even on the issue like abortion. Hes on both sides of the issue. Take the nafta agreement. How long did he have to decide on the nafta agreement . How long did he have to or how quickly did he change his position on education . He changes his position all the time. Lets stay with this issue for a while. Bill clinton has trouble telling the truth. Three words he fears most in the english language tell the truth. I want to talk about this because the question was not about free trade or education. The question was about it was the issue of waffling and he has waffled on abortion. Let me talk now. Its going to be a long evening if youre like this. Dont change the subject, because what you have answer my questions, then. Answer my questions. On the 24hour waiting period, do you support that . Do you support that . I have had the same position on abortion for a womans right to choose. Youre still avoiding the question. Talk about avoiding the question. Let me tell you why this is so important. There are millions of women in this country who passionately believe in the right of a woman to privacy, and they want to stack the Supreme Court with justices who will take away the right to privacy. Make no mistake about it, that is their agenda, and if you support them, dont be surprised that that is exactly what they want to do and that is why dan quayle refuses to say this evening that he supports the right of a woman to choose. I agree with admiral stockdale and the vast majority of democrats and republicans in this country. You know, one of the reasons so many republicans are supporting the clintongore ticket is because they have turned over the party to this right Wing Extremist Group which takes positions on issues like abortion that dont even allow exceptions for rape and incest. Again, cant you just say you support the right of a woman to choose . Can we give admiral stockdale a chance to jump in here if he wants to, if he dares to. I feel like an observer at a pingpong game where theyre talking about theyre expert professional politicians that massage these intricate plots and know every nuance to them, and in the meantime were facing a desperate situation in our economy. Ive seen the cost of living double in my lifetime. A new granddaughter was born in my family, my granddaughter, three weeks ago. And according to the statistics that we have that is, the perot group the chances of her seeing a doubling of the standard of living are nil. In fact, her children will be dead before another this standard of living is doubled. So what the heck, lets get on with talking about something substantive. Mr. Vice president , youll have a chance in the closing statements. Lets move on to another topic. Just 15 seconds to respond. Can i have 15 seconds also . Were not horse trading, were having a debate. Lets go on. Lets talk about the cities, because thats where a majority of americans live, in urban areas, and natheyre facing a financial crisis. There is an epidemic of drugs, crime and violence. The streets, the schools are like war zones. Its becoming increasingly difficult to pay for public education, for transportation, for police and fire protection, the basic services that local government must provide. Now, everybody talks about enterprise zones. That may be part of the solution, but what else are your administrations really going to be willing to do to help the cities . Vice president quayle, its your turn to go first. Enterprise is important. There has been extreme reluctance with the Democratic Congress. Well continue to push it. We also want to have home ownership. I was at a Housing Project in San Francisco several months ago and met with people that were trying to reclaim their neighborhood. They wanted home ownership, they didnt want handouts. And i was with the democratic mayor of San Francisco who was there supporting our idea. When you look at the cities and you see the problems that we have, crime, drugs, lack of jobs, i also want to point out one of the fundamental problems that we have in our american citizens through today, and that is the breakdown of the American Family. I know some people laugh when i talk about the breakdown of family, but its true. 60 of kids born in our cities today are born out of wedlock. We have too many divorces. We have too many fathers not assuming their responsibility. The breakdown of the family is a contributing factor to the problems we have in urban america. Admiral stockdale . I think enterprise zones are good, but i think the problems are deeper than that. I think you know, i ran a civilization for several years, a civilization of three to four hundred wonderful men. We had our own laws, we had our own practically our own constitution. And i put i was the sovereign for a good bit of that. And i tried to analyze human predicaments in that microcosm of life in the world. And i found out that when i really got down to putting out dos and donts and take torture for this and that and never take amnesty for any reason that they understood and went along with, we had an acronym backus. And each one of those baackb you had to make them hurt you before you did it. Bowing in public, getting on the radio and so forth. In the end it was backu. S. It had a double meaning there. Loaners make out. Somehow were going to have to get some love in this country between races, between rich and poor. Youve got to have leaders. They can do this with their bare hands working with people on the scene. Senator gore, please. George bushs urban policy has been a tale of two cities. The best of times for the very wealthy, the worst of times for everyone else. We have seen a decline in urban america under the bushquayle administration. Bill clinton and i want to change that by creating good jobs, investing in infrastructure, new programs in job training and apprenticeship. Welfare reform. To say to a mother with Young Children that if she gets a good job, her children are not going to lose their medicaid benefits. Incentives for investment in the inner city area. And, yes, enterprise zones. Vice president quayle said theyre important, but george bush eliminated them from his urban plan, but then when they were included in a plan that the congress passed, george bush vetoed the enterprise zone law, the law that included them, for one reason. Because that same bill raised taxes on those making more than 200,000 a year. Lets face up to it, dan. Your top priority, really, isnt it, to make sure that the very wealthy dont have to pay any more taxes. We want to cut taxes on middle income families and raise them on those making more than 200,000 a year. If we can take our approach, the cities will be much better off. Go ahead. What plan is that thats just going to raise taxes on those making over 200,000 a year . You may call that your plan, but everyone knows that you simply cant get 150 billion in new taxes by raising the marginal tax rate to a top rate of 36 and only tax those making 200,000 a year. Its absolutely ridiculous. The top 2 which you refer to, that gets you down to 64,000. Then you have about a 40 billion shortfall. That gets you down to 36,000 a year. Everybody making more than 36,000 a year will have their taxes increase if bill clinton is president of the United States. I dont know how youre going to go into urban america and say that raising taxes is good for you. I dont know how youre going to go to urban america and say, well, the best thing we can offer is simply to raise taxes again. This is nothing more than a tax and spend platform. Weve seen it before. It doesnt work. Let me tell you about a story he gets to respond. When we talk about families here, i was meeting with some former gang members in phoenix and los angeles and albuquerque, new mexico. When i talked to those former gang members, heres what they told me, why they joined the gang. They said joining a gang is like joining a family. I said, joining a family . Yes. Because the gang offered support, it offered leadership, it offered comfort. It was a way to get ahead. Where have we come if joining a gang is like being a member of a family . Thats why i think families have to be strengthened and you dont strengthen the American Family by raising taxes. I do want to respond to that. Admiral . George bush and dan quayle want to protect the very wealthy. That is the group that has gotten all of the tax cuts under the bushquayle administration. No one here that is middle income has gotten a tax cut because middle income families have had tax increases under bush and quayle in order to finance the cuts for the very wealthy. Thats what trickledown economics is all about. Were proposing to also offer Foreign Corporations to pay the same taxes that american corporations do when they do business here in the United States of america. George bush has not been willing to enforce the laws and collect those taxes. We want to close that loophole and raise more money in that way. And when you talk about stick to the cities. Excuse me . Stick to the cities. He talked about ways to raise money to help the cities. What were proposing is to invest in the infrastructure in cities and have targeted tax incentives for investment right in inner city areas. The enterprise zones are part of it also. The Bush Administration has cut out as vetoed family leave. They have cut Childhood Immunization and college aid. If you dont support parents and you dont support children, how can you say you support families . How about supporting parents and the right to choose where their kids go to school, al . You support that . Let the parents public or private schools . Want me to answer . We support the Public School choice to go to any Public School of your choice. What we dont support list ton what theyre proposing to take u. S. Taxpayer dollars and subsidize private schools. Im all for private schools, but to use taxpayer dollars when the people who get these little vouchers often wont be able to afford the private school, anyway, and the private school is not under any obligation to admit them, that is a ripoff of the u. S. Taxpayer. Choice in education is a very important issue. He said he was not for choosing giving the parents the right to choose to send their kids to Public Schools. But its okay for the wealthy to choose to send their kids to private schools, but its not okay for the middle class and the working poor to choose where they want to send their kids to school. I think that its time that all parents in america have a right to choose where they send their kids to school to get an education. [ applause ] admiral stockdale, would you like to have the last word in this period . I come down on the side of freedom of school choice. Theres a lot of misunderstandings that ive heard here tonight that i may have the answer to. Starting for the last almost a decade, weve worried about our schools officially in washington, and then they had a meeting with all the governors and they tried to fix this for schools, that is, increase the Certification Requirements for teachers, to lengthen the school day, lengthen the school year. This is a very brief overview of the thing, but nothing happened. And its time to change the school structure. In schools bureaucracy is bad and autonomy is good. The only good schools we have are those run by talented principals and devoted teachers. And theyre running their own show. How many times have i thrived . You know, the best thing i had when i ran that civilization, it succeeded and its a landmark. The best thing i had going for me was i had no contact with washington for all those years. We have to go on. What im about to say doesnt apply to the debate tonight, it applies to the campaign thats been going on outside this auditorium. With three weeks to go, this campaign has at times been very ugly with the tone being set by personal negative attacks. As candidates, how does it look from your viewpoint, and are these tactics really necessary . Admiral stockdale, its your turn to go first. I didnt have my hearing aid turned on. Tell me again. I was saying at times this campaign has been very ugly with personal, negative attacks. As a candidate, how does it look from where you are and are the tactics really necessary . Nasty attacks. Well, i think there is a case to be made for putting emphasis on character over these issues that weve been batting back and forth and have a life of their own. Sure, you have to know where youre going with your go government, but character is the big variable in the success character of leaders is a big variable in the longterm success of an administration. I went to a friend of mine in new york some years ago, and he was the president of a major tv network, and he said, you know, i think we have messed up this whole this election process. It was an election year. By stressing that putting out the dogma that issues are the things to talk about, not character. He said, i felt so strongly about this, i went back and read the lincolndouglas debates. Read those debates. How do they come down . Douglas is all character. He knows all the stinky numbers these guys do. Abraham lincoln had character. Thank god we got the right president in the civil war. But that is a question that is a valid one, and i would like to brag about the character of my boss. Senator gore. This election is about the future of our country, not about personal attacks against one candidate or another. Our nation is in trouble, and it is a pappalling to me that with million americans out of work, with the rest working harder for less money than they did four years ago, with the loss of 1. 4 Million Manufacturing jobs in our nation, with a health care crisis, a crisis of crime and drugs and aids, substandard education, that george bush would constantly try to level personal attacks at his opponent. Now, this, of course, just reached a new low last week when he resorted to a classic mccarthyite technique of trying to smear bill clinton over a trip that he took as a student along with lots of other rhodes scholars who were invited to go to russia. Its a classic mccarthyite smear technique. I think the president of the United States ought to apologize. I think that he insulted the intelligence of the American People, and im awful proud that the American People rejected that tactic so overwhelmingly that he decided he had made a mistake. Do you think it was a mistake, too, dan . Vice president quayle go ahead. How did you say it, and i wrote it down here. Personal negative attacks. Has anybody been reading my press clippings for the last four years . [ applause ] i agree with one thing with senator gore, and that is we ought to look to the future. And the future is, who is going to be the next president of the United States. And is it a negative attack and a personal attack to point out that bill clinton simply has trouble telling the truth . He said he didnt he didnt even demonstrate, he told the people in arkansas, then we found out he demonstrated an organization. Just yesterday on a radio show, he attacked he attacks ross perot say the media is giving ross perot a free ride. The press asked him, what do you mean by ross perot getting a free ride . He said, i didnt say that at all. You cant have it both ways. I dont think thats a personal attack. What i find troubling with bill clinton is he cant tell the truth. You cannot lead this great country of ours by misleading the people. [ applause ] gentlemen, the control room advises me that in order to have time for your closing statements, which we certainly want, there simply is not going to be time for a discussion period on this particular topic. So lets go to the closing statements. You have two minutes each, and well start with admiral stockdale. I think the best justification for getting ross perot in the race again to stay is that were seeing this kind of chitchat back and forth about issues that dont concentrate on where our grandchildren the Living Standards of our children and grandchildren. He, as i read in more than one article, a revolutionary. Hes got plans out there that are going to double the speed at which this budget problem is being cared for. It was asked if we could weve been squeezed down so fast that we would strangle the economy in the process. That is an art to follow all those variables and to know when to let up and nurse this economy back together with pulls and pushes. There is no better man in the world to do that than that old artist ross perot. I think that my closing statement is that i think im in a room with people that arent living the life of reality. The world the United States is in deep trouble. Weve got to have somebody that can get up there and bring out the fire hoses and get it stopped, and thats what were about in the perot campaign. Thank you. Senator gore, your closing statement, sir . Three weeks from today, our nation will make a fateful decision. We can continue traveling the road we have been on, which has led to higher unemployment and worse economic times, or we can reach out for change. If we choose change, it will require us to reach down inside ourselves to find the courage to take a new direction. Sometimes it seems deceptively easy to continue with the old habits even when theyre no longer good for us. Trickledown economics simply does not work. We have had an increase in all of the things that should be decreasing. Everything that should have been increasing has been going down. We have got to change direction. Bill clinton offers a new approach. He has been named by the other 49 governors, republicans and democrats alike, as the best and most effective governor in the entire United States of america. Hes moved 17,000 people off the welfare rolls and onto payrolls. He has introduced innovations in health care and education, and again, he has led the nation for the last two years in a row in the creation of jobs in the private sector. Isnt it time for a new approach, a new generation of ideas and leadership to put our nations people first and to get our economy moving again . We simply cannot stand to continue with this failed approach that is no good for us. Ultimately, it is a choice between hope and fear, a choice between the future and the past. It is time to reach out for a better nation. We are bigger than george bush has told us we are as a nation, and we have a much brighter future. Give us a chance. With your help well change this country, and we cant wait to get started. [ applause ] thank you, hal. Id like to use this closing statement to talk about a few people ive met these last four years. I think of a woman in chicago when i talked to parents about education and she stood up and said, im sick and tired of schools and this city being nothing but a factory for failure. Thats why we support choice in education. I was in beaumont, texas and met with Small Business people and they wanted to reform the Civil Justice system because they think our legal system costs too much and theres too much of a delay in getting an answer. I was in middletown, ohio talking to a welfare woman where she said, i want to go back to work and i had a job offer to me, but im not going to take it because i have two children at home and the job offered to me doesnt have Health Insurance. In president bushs Health Care Reform package, that woman wont have to make a choice about going back to work and have health care for her children, because shell have both. I was in lithuanian talking to 12,000 people in the middle of winter. Hundreds of people came up to me and said, god bless america. Yes, the next four years, as i said, somewhere, sometime theres going to be a crisis and you need to have a president who is qualified, has the experience and is going to be tested. Not one time during this evening, during 90 minutes, did al gore tell us why bill clinton is qualified to be president. He never answered my charges that bill clinton has trouble telling the truth. The choice is yours. The American People should demand that their president tell the truth. Do you really believe, do you really believe bill clinton will tell the truth . And do you, do you trust bill clinton to be your president . [ applause ] that concludes this Vice President ial debate. Id like to thank Vice President quayle, senator gore, admiral stockdale for being participants. The next president ial debate is scheduled for this thursday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern time at the university of richmond in richmond, virginia. To all of our viewers and listeners, thank you and good night. Weeknights this month on American History tv were looking at past president ial debates. Tonight we look at the president ial debate of 1976 between incumbent president gerald ford and jimmy carter. The last time was 1960 when the nominees participated in debates. The first debate was domestic issues. The second was policy issues, including u. S. Soviet relations and the credibility of the u. S. And watergate. Tonight at 8 00 p. M. Watch American History tv and every weekend on cspan3. In the 1984 election, Vice President george bush debated his democratic opponent, u. S. Congresswoman geraldine ferraro. The debate took place in philadelphia. [ applause ] good evening. Good evening from the civic center in philadelphia, pennsylvania. Im dorothy rattings, president of the le