Transcripts For CSPAN3 Presidential Debates 1992 Presidential Candidates Debate 20240712

Republican nominee, president george bush. The independent, ross perot. And governor bill clinton, the democratic nominee. My name is Carol Simpson and i will be the moderator for tonights 90minute debate which is coming to you from the campus of the university of richmond in richmond, virginia. Now tonights program is unlike any other president ial debate in history. Were making history now and its pretty exciting. An independent polling firm has selected an audience of 209 uncommitted voters from this area. The candidates will be asked questions by these voters on a topic of their choosing, anything they want to ask about. My job as moderator is to, you know, take care of the questioning, ask questions myself if i think there needs to be continuity and balance and sometimes i might ask the president to respond to what another candidate may have said. The format has been agreed to by representatives of both the republican and democratic campaigns. And there is no subject matter that is restricted. Anything goes. We can ask anything. After the debate, the candidates will have an opportunity to make a closing statement. So president bush, i think you said it earlier, lets get it on. Lets go. And i think the first question is over here. Yes. Id like to direct my question to mr. Perot. What will you do as president to open foreign markets to fair competition from American Business and to stop unfair competition here at home from Foreign Countries so that we can bring jobs back to the United States . Thats right at the top of my agenda. Weve shipped millions of jobs overseas and we have a strange situation where we have a process in washington where you cash in, and become a foreign lobists and make 30,000 a month and then work on president ial campaigns and make sure you have good contacts and go back out. The first thing you ought to do is get the folks that have the oneway trade agreements that weve negotiated over the years and say fellas, well take the same deal we gave you and theyll gridlock at that point. For example, we have International Competitors who could not unload their cars off the ships if they had to comply. You see, if it was a twoway street, just couldnt do it. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. To those of you in the audience who are Business People, pretty simple. If youre paying 12, 13, 14 for factory workers, and you can move your factory south of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, hire young lets assume youve been in business for a long time, and pay a dollar an hour for your labor, have no health care, thats the most expensive single element of making a car, have no environmental controls and no pollution controls and no retirement and you dont care anything but making money there will be a job sucking sound going south. If the people send me to washington the first thing ill do is study that 2,000page agreement and make sure its a twoway street. One last point here. Ive i decided i was dumb and didnt understand it, so i called the whos who of the folks that have been around it and i said why wont everybody go south . It would be disruptive . How does it stop being d disruptive and that is when it goes to 6 an hour, and then its leveled again, but in the meantime youve wrecked the country with these kinds of deals. Weve got to cut it out. Thank you, mr. Perot. I see that the president has stood up so he must have something to say about this. Carol, the thing that saved us in this Global Economic slowdown has been our exports, and what im trying to do is increase our exports and if indeed all of the jobs were going to move south because theyre lower wages, theyre lower wages now and they havent done that, and so i have just negotiated with the president of mexico, the north American Free trade agreement and the Prime Minister of canada, i might add and i want to have more of these free trade agreements because export jobs are increasing far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. Thats a scare tactic because its not that many, but anyone thats here, we ought to have more jobs here, and some believe in protection, i dont and i believe in free and fair trade and i will keep on as president to get a conclusion to the uruguay round of trade which will really open up markets for our agriculture particularly. I want to continue to work after we get this nafta agreement ratified this coming year. I want to get one with eastern europe, i want to get one with chile and free and fair trade is the answer and not protection and weve had tough Economic Times and weve had exports that have saved us and exports that are built. Governor clinton . Id like to answer the question because ive actually been a governor for 12 years, so ive known a lot of people who have lost their jobs because of jobs of moving overseas and i know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand the export trade and trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to mexico, for example, have gone up and our trade deficit has gone down and its also true that a record high trade deficit was announced with japan. So what is the answer . Let me mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them, and if theyre not, have measures on the books that dont take forever and a day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions for shutting plants down and moving overseas than there are modernizing plant equipment here. Our competitors dont do that. Emphasize and subsidize modernizing plant equipment there and not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal Governments Program that now gives lowinterest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries, but we wont do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade, but on fair term and favor investment in america. Thank you. I think we have a question over here. This is for governor clinton. In the real world that is outside of washington, d. C. , compensation and achievement are based on goals defined and achieved. The deficit is my my question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar, goal, how much you would reduce the deficit of each of the four years of a Clinton Administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American People that if you did not a chief executive those goals that you would not seek a second term . Answer yes or no and then comment on your answer, please. No and heres why, and ill tell you exactly why because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. Ill tell you exactly what i think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50 in four years and grow the economy. I could get rid of it in four years in theory on the books now, but to do it youd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them and it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan says that it will bring the deficit down in five years, but it will make unemployment bad for four more years. So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy and reduce the deficit by controlling healthcare costs, prudent reductions in defense and cuts in domestic programs and asking the wealthiest americans and Foreign Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and in investing and growing this economy, i ask everybody to look at my economic ideas and 500 economists and hundred of Business People including a lot of republicans that said this is the way you have to go, if you cant grow the economy you cant get it done. I dont think a president should be judged solely on the deficit. Let me also say were having an election today. Youll have a shot at me in four years if you think ive done a lousy job and i would welcome you to do that. Mr. President . Im a little confused here because i dont see how you can grow the deficit down by raising peoples taxes. You see, i dont think the American People are taxed too little. I think theyre taxed too much. I went for one tax increase and when i make a mistake i admit it. That wasnt the right thing to do. Governor clintons program wants to tax more and spend more. 150 billion in new taxes and spend another 220. I dont believe thats the way to do it. Here are some things that will help. Give us a balanced budget amendment. He always talks about arkansas having a balanced budget and they do, but he has a balanced budget, they have to do it. Id like the government to have that and it would discipline not only the congress which needs it, but also the executive branch. I would like to have what 43 governors have, the lineitem veto. So if the congress cant cut and we have a reckless spending congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. Ive proposed another one, some sophisticates think its gimmicky and i think its good. It says to you as a taxpayer and say youll pay a tax of 1,000 bucks or something, check 10 of that in the one box and that 10 , 100 or if youre paying 10,000 or whatever it is, 1,000, check it off and make the government, make it lower the deficit by that amount and if the Congress Wont do it, if they cant get together and negotiate how to do that, then youd have a sequester across the board. Youd exempt Social Security. I dont want to tax or touch Social Security. Im the president that said hey, dont mess with Social Security, and we havent. So i believe we need to control the growth of mandatory spending back to this gentlemans question. Thats the main growing thing in the in the in the budget. The program that the president twothirds of the budget i as president never get to look at, never get to touch. Weve got to control that growth to inflation and population increase, but not raise taxes on the American People now. I just dont believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. How about you, mr. Perot . With 4 trillion in debt and were going into debt on an additional 1 billion every working day of the year. The thing i love about it, im just a businessman and i was down if texas, taking care of business and tending to my family and this situation got so bad that i decided to get into it, and the American People asked me to get into it, i find it fascinating that whale weil sitting here were going into debt 150 billion. Its not the republicans fault and not the democrats fault. What im looking for it, who did it . Maybe if we put them together, they did it. The facts are im here for the young folks in the balcony of this college. When i got out of the navy i had multiple job offers. Young people with high grades cant get a job. The 18 to 24yearold High School Graduates ten years ago were making more than they are now. In other words, we were down to 18 of them were making of the 18 to 24yearolds were making less than 12,000 and now its up to 40 and whats happeneded in meantime, the dollar has gone through the floor. Whose fault is that . Not the democrats and the republicans, somewhere out there there is an extraterrestrial doing this to us and everybody says they take responsibility. Somebody somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put to you bluntly, American People, if you want me to be your president , we will deal with the problems and we will pay down the debt and well pay the American Dreams for our children and i will not leave our children the situation that we have today. When i was a boy it took two generations to have the standard of living and today it will take the 12 generations. Somebody somewhere dropped on us. Youre all wonderful speakers and i know you have lots more to add, but ive talked to this audience and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please . We have one up here, i think. Yes. Id like to address the candidates with this question. The amount of candidates have spent time on their camp cams trashing their opponents is large. Why not address the difficulty of the issues to try to build the consensus around the best aspects of all proposals . Who wants to take that one . Mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, dont you . Go right ahead, sir. No, i dont have an answer for everything, but as you all know ive been buying 30minute segments to talk about issues and tomorrow night on nbc from 10 30 to 11 00 eastern we will talk about how you pay the debt down. So well come right down to that one. Well be on again saturday night at 8 00 to 9 00 on abc. Okay. Okay. Finally, i couldnt agree with you more. Couldnt agree with you more, and i have said again and again and again, lets get off mud wrestling and off personalities and lets talk about jobs, healthcare, crime and the things that concern the American People. I am spending my money, not pac money, not foreign money, my money to take this message to the people. Thank you, mr. Perot. That seems directed. He would say its you gentlemen oh, president bush, how would you like to respond . Well, in the first place, i believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of a candidate for president or being president. In terms of programs, ive submitted, what, four different budgets to the us congress in great detail. Its so heavy theyd give you a broken back. And everything in there says what i am for. Now ive come out with a new agenda for americas renewal, a plan that i believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on World Affairs is pretty well known because ive been president for four years, so i feel ive been talking issues. You know, nobody likes who shot john, but i think the first negative campaign run in this election was by governor clinton, and im not going to sit there and be a punching bag, im going to stand up and say, hey, listen, heres my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night governor clinton raised my i dont know if you saw the debate the other night. You did suffered through that . Well, he raised the question of my father it was a good line, well rehearsed and well delivered. But he raised the question of my father and said, well, your father, prescott bush, was against mccarthy, you should be ashamed of yourself, mccarthyism. I remember something my dad told me i was 18 years old going to penn station to go on into the navy, and he said write your mother which i faithfully did, he said serve your country my father was an honor, duty and country man, and he said tell the truth. And ive tried to do that in public life, all through it. That says something about character. My argument with governor clinton you can call it mud wrestling, but i think its fair to put it in focus is i am deeply troubled by someone who demonstrates and organizes demonstration in a foreign land when his countrys at war. Probably a lot of kids here disagree with me. But thats what i feel. Thats what i feel passionately about. Im thinking of ross perots running mate sitting in the jail. How would he feel about it . But maybe thats generational. I dont know. But the big argument i have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues trying to be one thing to one person here thats opposing the nafta agreement and then for it what we call waffling. And i do think that you cant turn the white house into the waffle house. Youve got to say what youre for and youve got to mr. President , im getting time cues and with all due respect excuse me. I dont want to im sorry. I dont want to governor clinton. I get wound up because i feel strongly yes, you do. [ laughter ] let me say first of all to you that i believe so strongly in the question you asked that i suggested this format tonight. I started doing these formats a year ago in New Hampshire and i found that we had huge crowds because all i did was let people ask questions and i tried to give very specific answers. I also had a Program Starting last year. Ive been disturbed by the tone and the tenor of this campaign. Thank goodness the networks have a fact check so i dont have to just go blue in the face anymore. Mr. Bush said once again i was going to have 150 billion tax increase. When mr. Quayle said that all the networks said, thats not true. Hes got over 100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. So im not going to take up your time tonight, but let me just say this. Well have a debate in 4 days and we can talk about this character thing again. But the Washington Post ran a long editorial today saying they couldnt believe mr. Bush was making character an issue and they said he was the greatest quote political chameleon for changing his positions of all times. Now, i dont want to get into that please dont get into the Washington Post. Wait a minute. Lets dont you dont have to believe it. Heres my point. Im not interested in his character. I want to change the character of the presidency. And im interested in what we can trust him to do and what you can trust me to do and what you can trust mr. Perot to do for the next four years. So i think youre right and i hope the rest of the night belongs to you. May i i talked to this audience before you gentlemen came and i asked them about how they felt about the tenor of the campaign. Would you like to let them know what you thought about that, when i said are you pleased with how the campaigns been going . Who wants to say why you dont like the way the campaign is going . We have a gentleman back here. And forgive the notes here but im shy on camera. The focus of my work as a domestic mediator is meeting the needs of the children that i work with, by way of their parents, and not the wants of their parents. And i ask the three of you, how can we, as symbolically the children of the future president , expect the two of you, the three of you to meet our needs, the needs in housing and in crime and you name it, as opposed to the wants of your political spin doctors and your Political Parties . So your question is . Can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud . I think theres a need, if we could take a poll here with the folks from gallup perhaps, i think theres a real need here to focus at this point on the needs. How do you respond . How do you gentlemen respond to i agree with him. Lets do it. President bush . Lets do it. Lets talk about programs for children. Could we cross our hearts . It sounds silly here but could we make a commitment . You know, were not under oath at this point but could you make a commitment to the citizens of the United States to meet our needs, and we have many, and not yours again . I repeat that. Its a real need, i think, that we all have. I think it depends how you define it. I mean, i think in general, lets talk about these issues. Lets talk about the programs. But in the presidency, a lot goes into it. Caring goes into it. Thats not particularly specific. Strength goes into it. Thats not specific. Standing up against aggression. Thats not specific in terms of a program. This is what a president has to do. So in principle, though, ill take your point and think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is. And you, too . Ross had his hand up. Yes. Just no hedges, no ifs, ands and buts. Ill take the pledge because i know the American People want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism. So ill take the pledge and will stay on the issues. Now, just for the record, i dont have any spin doctors. I dont have any speechwriters. Probably shows. I make those charts you see on television. But you dont have to wonder if its me talking. See, what you see is what you get and if you dont like it, you got two other choices, right . Wait a minute. I want to say just one thing now, ross, in fairness. The ideas i express are mine. Ive worked on these things for 12 years and im the only person up here who hasnt been part of washington in any way for the last 20 years. So i dont want the implication to be that somehow everything we say is just cooked up and put in our head by somebody else. I worked 12 years very hard as a governor on the real problems of real people. Im just as sick as you are by having to wake up and figure out how to defend myself every day. I never thought id ever be involved in anything like this. May i finish . Yes, you may finish. Very briefly . Yes, very briefly. And i dont have any foreign money in my campaign. I dont have any foreign lobbyists on leave in my campaign. I dont have any pac money in my campaign. Ive got 5. 5 million hardworking people who put me on the ballot, and i belong to them. And theyre interested in what youre interested in. I take the pledge. Ive already taken the pledge on cutting the deficit in half. I never got to say that. Theres a great young group, lead or leave, college students, young people, who dont want us to spend their money. I took the pledge wed cut it out. Thank you. We have a question here. Yes. I would like to get a response from all three gentlemen. And the question is, what are your plans to improve the physical infrastructure of this nation, which includes the water system, the sewer system, our transportation systems, et cetera. Thank you. The cities. Whos going to fix the cities and how . Ill be glad to take a shot at it. Please. Im not sure that and i can understand if you havent seen this, because theres been a lot of hue and cry. We passed this year the most furthest looking transportation bill in the history of this country since eisenhower started the interstate highways 150 billion for improving the infrastructure. That happened when i was president. And so im very proud of the way that came about and i think its a very, very good beginning. Like mr. Perot, i am concerned about the deficits and 150 billion is a lot of money, but its awful hard to say were going to go out and spend more money when were trying to get the deficit down. But i would cite that as a major accomplishment. We hear all the negatives. When youre president you expect this. Everybodys running against the incumbent. They can do better. Everyone knows that. But heres something that we can take great pride in because it really does get to what youre talking about. Our Home Initiative our Home Ownership initiative hope that passed the congress is a good start for having people own their own homes instead of living in these deadly tenements. Our enterprise zones, that we hear a lot of lip service about in congress, would bring jobs into the inner city. Theres a good program. And i need the help of everybody across this country to get it passed in a substantial way by the congress. When we went out to South Central in los angeles some of you may remember the riots there. I went out there. I went to a boys club. And everyone of them the boys club leaders, the ministers all of them were saying pass enterprise zones. We go back to washington and very difficult to get it through the congress. But theres going to be a new congress. No one likes gridlock. Theres going to be a new congress because the old one i dont want to get this man made at me but there was a post Office Scandal and a bank scandal. Youre going to have a lot of new members of congress. And then you can sit down and say, help me do what we should for the cities. Help me pass these programs. Mr. President , arent you threatening to veto the bill the urban aid bill that included enterprise zones . Sure, but the problem is, you get so many things included in a great big bill that you have to look at the overall good. Thats the problem with our system. If you had a line item veto you could knock out the pork. You could knock out the tax increases and you could do what the people want, and thats create enterprise zones. Governor clinton, youre chomping at the bit. That bill pays for these urban enterprise zones by asking the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. And thats why he wants to veto it, just like he vetoed an earlier bill this year. This is not mud slinging. This is fact slinging a bill earlier this year. This is facts that would have given investment tax credits and other incentives to reinvest in our cities, in our country. But it asked the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. Mr. Perot wants to do the same thing. I agree with him. I mean, we agree with that. But let me tell you specifically what my plan does. My plan would dedicate 20 billion a year in each of the next four years for investments in new transportation, communications, environmental cleanups and new technologies for the century 21st century. And we would target it especially in areas that have been either depressed or which have lost a lot of defense related jobs. There are 200,000 people in california, for example, who have lost their defense related jobs. They ought to be engaged in making high speed rail. They ought to be engaged in breaking ground in other technologies, doing waste recycling, Clean Water Technology and things of that kind. We can create millions of jobs in these new technologies more than were going to lose in defense if we target it. But were investing a much smaller percentage of our income in the things you just asked about than all of our major competitors, and our wealth growth is going down as a result of it. Its making the country poorer, which is why i answered the gentleman the way i did before. We have to both bring down the deficit and get our economy going through these kinds of investments in order to get the kind of wealth and jobs and incomes we need in america. Mr. Perot, what about your plans for the cities . You want to tackle the economy and the deficit first. First youve got to have money to pay for these things. So youve got to create jobs. There are all kinds of ways to create jobs in the inner city. Im not a politician, but i think i could go to washington in a week and get Everybody Holding hands and get this bill signed because i talk to the Democratic Leaders and they want it. I talk to the Republican Leaders and they want it. But since theyre bred from childhood to fight with one another rather than get results, you know, i would be glad to drop out and spend a little time and see if we couldnt build some bridges. Now, results is what counts. The president cant Order Congress around. Congress cant order the president around. Thats not bad for a guy thats never been there, right . But you have to Work Together. Now, i have talked to the chairmen of the committees that want this. Theyre democrats. The president wants it, but we cant get it because we sit here in gridlock because its a campaign year. We didnt fund a lot of other things this year, like the savings and loan mess. Thats another story that were going to pay a big price for right after the election. The facts are though the facts are the American People are hurting. These people are hurting in the inner cities. Were shipping the quote, low paying jobs overseas. What are low paying jobs . Textiles, shoes, things like that that we say are yesterdays industries. Theyre tomorrows industries in the inner cities. Let me say in my case, if im out of work, ill cut grass tomorrow to take care of my family, ill be happy to make shoes, ill be happy to make clothing, ill make sausage. You just give me a job. Put those jobs in the inner cities instead of doing diplomatic deals and shipping them to china where prison labor does the work. Mr. Perot, everybody thought you won the first debate because you were plainspeaking and you made it sound, oh, so simple. Well, just do it. What makes you think that youre going to be able to get the democrats and republicans together any better than these guys . If you ask me if i could fly a fighter plane or be an astronaut, i cant. Ive spent my life creating jobs. Thats something i know how to do. And, very simply, in the inner city, theyre starved you see, Small Business is the way to jump start the inner city, not are you answering my question . You want jobs in the inner city . Do you want jobs in the inner city . Is that your question . No, i want you to tell me how youre going to be able to get the republicans and democrats in congress to Work Together better than these two gentlemen. Oh, im sorry. Well, ive listened to both sides, and if they would talk to one another instead of throwing rocks, i think we could get a lot done. And, among other things, i would say, okay, over here in this Senate Committee to the chairman who is anxious to get this bill passed, the president who is anxious, id say rather than just yelling at one another, why dont we find out where were apart, try to get together, get the bill passed and give the people the benefits and not play Party Politics right now. And i think the press would follow that so closely that probably they would get it done. Thats the way i would do it. I doubt if theyll give me the chance, but i will drop everything and go work on it. Okay, i have a question here. My question was originally for governor clinton, but i think i would welcome a response from all three candidates. As you are aware, crime is rampant in our cities. And in the richmond area and im sure its happened elsewhere 12yearolds are carrying guns to school. And im sure when our Founding Fathers wrote the constitution they did not mean for the right to bear arms to apply to 12yearolds. So im asking where do you stand on gun control, and what do you plan to do about it . Governor clinton . I support the right to keep and bear arms. I live in a state where over half the adults have hunting or fishing licenses, or both. But i believe we have to have some way of checking hand guns before theyre sold, to check the criminal history, the Mental Health history, and the age of people who are buying them. Therefore i support the brady bill which would impose a national waiting period unless and until a state did what only virginia has done now, which is to automate its records. Once you automate your records, then you dont have to have a waiting period, but at least you can check. I also think we should have frankly restrictions on assault weapons whose only purpose is to kill. We need to give the police a fighting chance in our urban areas where the gangs are building up. The third thing i would say it doesnt bear directly on gun control, but its very important we need more police on the street. There is a crime bill which would put more police on the street, which was killed for this session by a filibuster in the senate, mostly be republican senators, and i think its a shame it didnt pass, i think it should be made the law but it had the brady bill in it, the waiting period. I also believe that we should offer College Scholarships to people who will agree to work them off as Police Officers, and i think, as we reduce our military forces, we should let people earn military retirement by coming out and working as Police Officers. Thirty years ago there were three Police Officers on the street for every crime, today there are three crimes for every police officer. In the communities which have had real success putting Police Officers near schools where kids carry weapons, to get the weapons out of the schools, are on the same blocks, youve seen crime go down. In houston theres been a 15 drop in the crime rate in the last year because of the work the mayor did there in increasing the police force. So i know it can work, ive seen it happen. Thank you. President bush . I think you put your finger on a major problem. I talk about strengthening the American Family and its very hard to strengthen the family if people are scared to walk down to the corner store and, you know, send their kid down to get a loaf of bread. Its very hard. I have been fighting for very strong anticrime legislation habeas corpus reform, so you dont have these endless appeals, so when somebody gets sentenced, hey, this is for real. Ive been fighting for changes in the exclusionary rule so if an honest cop stops somebody and makes a technical mistake, the criminal doesnt go away. Ill probably get into a fight in this room with some but i happen to think that we need stronger death penalties for those that kill Police Officers. Virginias in the lead in this, as governor clinton properly said, on this Identification System for firearms. I am not for National Registration of firearms. Some of the states that have the toughest antigun laws have the highest levels of crime. I am for the right, as the governor says. Im a sportsman and i dont think you ought to eliminate all kinds of weapons. But i was not for the bill that he was talking about because it was not tough enough on the criminal. Im very pleased that the fraternal order of police in little rock, arkansas, endorsed me because i think they see im trying to strengthen the anticrime legislation. Weve got more money going out for local police than any previous administration. So weve got to get it under control and theres one last point id make. Drugs. We have got to win our National Strategy against drugs, the fight against drugs. And were making some progress, doing a little better on interdiction. Were not doing as well amongst the people that get to be habitual drugusers. The good news is, and i think its true in richmond, teenage use is down of cocaine, substantially, 60 in the last couple of years. So were making progress but until we get that one done, were not going to solve the neighborhood crime problem. Mr. Perot, there are young black males in america dying at unprecedented rates i didnt get to make a comment on this. Yes, im getting to that. Oh, youre going to let me. Excuse me. The fact that homicide is the leading cause of death among young black males 15 to 24 years old. What are you going to do to get the guns off the street . On any program, and this includes crime, youll find we have all kinds of great plans lying around that never get enacted into law and implemented. I dont care what it is competitiveness, health care, crime, you name it. Brady bill, i agree that its a timid step in the right direction but it wont fix it. So why pass a law that wont fix it . Now, what it really boils down to is can you live we become so preoccupied with the rights of the criminal that weve forgotten the rights of the innocent. And in our country we have evolved to a point where weve put millions of innocent people in jail because you go to the poor neighborhoods and theyve put bars on their windows and bars on their doors and put themselves in jail to protect the things that they acquired legitimately. Thats where we are. We have got to become more concerned about people who play by the rules and get the balance we require. This is going to take first, building a consensus at grassroots america. Right from the bottom up, the American People have got to say they want it. And at that point, we can pick from a variety of plans and develop new plans. And the way you get things done is bury yourselves in the room with one another, put together the best program, take it to the American People, use the electronic town hall, the kind of thing youre doing here tonight, build a consensus and then do it and then go on to the next one. But dont just sit here slow dancing for four years doing nothing. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Perot. We have a question up here. Please state your position on term limits, and, if you are in favor of them, how will you get them enacted . Any order . Ill be glad to respond. Thank you. I strongly support term limits for members of the United States congress. I believe it would return the government closer to the people, the way that ross perot is talking about. The president s terms are limited to two, a total of eight years. Whats wrong with limiting the terms of members of congress to 12 . Congress has gotten kind of institutionalized. For 38 years one party has controlled the house of representatives, and the result, a sorry Little Post Office that cant do anything right and a bank that has more overdrafts than all the chase bank and citibank put together. Weve got to do something about it. And i think you get a certain arrogance, bureaucratic arrogance, if people stay there too long. And so i favor, strongly favor, term limits. And how to get them passed . Send us some people that will pass the idea. And i think you will. I think the American People want it now. Every place i go i talk about it, and i think they want it done. Actually, youd have to have some amendments to the constitution because of the way the constitution reads. Thank you. Governor clinton. I know theyre popular, but im against them. Ill tell you why. I believe, number one, it would pose a real problem for a lot of smaller states in the congress who have enough trouble now making sure their interests are heard. Number two, i think it would increase the influence of unelected Staff Members in the congress who have too much influence already. I want to cut the size of the congressional staffs, but i think youre going to have too much influence there with people who were never elected, who have lots of expertise. Number three, if the people really have a mind to change, they can. Youre going to have 120 to 150 new members of congress. Now, let me tell you what i favor instead. I favor strict controls on how much you can spend running for congress, strict limits on Political Action committees, requirements that people running for congress appear in open public debates like were doing now. If you did that you could take away the incumbents advantage because challengers like me would have a chance to run against incumbents like him for house races and senate races, and then the voters could make up their own mind without being subject to an unfair fight. So thats how i feel about it, and i think if we had the right kind of campaign reform, wed get the changes you want. Mr. Perot, would you like to address term limitations . Yes. Let me do first on a personal level. If the American People send me up to do this job, i intend to be there one term. I do not intend to spend one minute of one day thinking about reelection. And as a matter of principle and my situation is unique, and i understand it i would take absolutely no compensation, i go as their servant. Now, i have set as strong an example as i can, then at that point when we sit down over at capitol hill tomorrow night im going to be talking about government reform its a long subject, you wouldnt let me finish tonight. If you want to hear it, you get it tomorrow night youll hear it tomorrow night. But we have got to reform government. If you put term limits in and dont reform government, you wont get the benefits you thought. It takes both. So we need to do the reforms and the term limits. And after we reform it, it wont be a lifetime career opportunity, good people will go serve and then go back to their homes and not become foreign lobbyists and cash in at 30,000 bucks a month and then take time off to run some president s campaign. Theyre all nice people, theyre just in a bad system. I dont think there are any villains, but, boy, is the system rotten. Thank you very much. We have a question over here. Id like to ask governor clinton, do you attribute the rising costs of health care to the medical profession itself, or do you think the problem lies elsewhere . And what specific proposals do you have to tackle this problem . Ive had more people talk to me about their Health Care Problems i guess than anything else, all across america you know, people whove lost their jobs, lost their businesses, had to give up their jobs because of sick children. So let me try to answer you in this way. Lets start with a premise. We spend 30 more of our income than any nation on earth on health care, and yet we insure fewer people. We have 35 Million People without any insurance at all and i see them all the time. A hundred thousand americans a month have lost their Health Insurance just in the last 4 years. So if you analyze where were out of line with other countries, you come up with the following conclusions. Number one, we spend at least 60 billion a year on insurance, administrative cost, bureaucracy, and government regulation that wouldnt be spent in any other nation. So we have to have, in my judgment, a drastic simplification of the basic Health Insurance policies of this country, be very comprehensive for everybody. Employers would cover their employees, government would cover the unemployed. Number two, i think you have to take on specifically the Insurance Companies and require them to make some significant change in the way they rate people in the Big Community pools. I think you have to tell the pharmaceutical companies they cant keep raising drug prices at three times the rate of inflation. I think you have to take on medical fraud. I think you have to help doctors stop practicing defensive medicine. Ive recommended that our doctors be given a set of National Practice guidelines and that if they follow those guidelines that raises the presumption that they didnt do anything wrong. I think you have to have a system of primary and preventive clinics in our inner cities and our rural areas so people can have access to health care. The key is to control the cost and maintain the quality. To do that you need a system of managed competition where all of us are covered in big groups and we can choose our doctors and our hospitals, a wide range, but there is an incentive to control costs. And i think there has to be i think mr. Perot and i agree on this, there has to be a National Commission of Health Care Providers and Health Care Consumers that set ceilings to keep health costs in line with inflation, plus population growth. Now, let me say, some people say we cant do this but hawaii does it. They cover 98 of their people and their insurance premiums are much cheaper than the rest of america, and so does rochester, new york. They now have a plan to cover everybody and their premiums are twothirds of the rest of the country. This is very important. Its a big human problem and a devastating economic problem for america, and im going to send a plan to do this within the first 100 days of my presidency. Its terribly important. Thank you. Sorry to cut you short but president bush, health care reform. I just have to say something. I dont want to stampede. Ross was very articulate across the country. I dont want anybody to stampede to cut the president s salary off altogether. Barbaras sitting over here and i but what i have proposed, 10 cut, downsize the government, and we can get that done. She asked a question, i think, is whether the Health Care Profession was to blame. No. One thing to blame is these malpractice lawsuits. Theyre breaking the system. It costs 20 to 25 billion a year, and i want to see those outrageous claims capped. Doctors dont dare to deliver babies sometimes because theyre afraid that somebodys going to sue them. People dont dare medical practitioners, to help somebody along the highway that are hurt because theyre afraid that some lawyers going to come along and get a big lawsuit. So you cant blame the practitioners for the health problem. And my program is this. Keep the government as far out of it as possible, make insurance available to the poorest of the poor, through vouchers, next range in the income bracket, through tax credits, and get on about the business of pooling insurance. A great big company can buy ross has got a goodsized company, been very successful. He can buy insurance cheaper than mom and pops store on the corner. But if those mom and pop stores all get together and pool, they too can bring the cost of insurance down. So i want to keep the quality of health care. That means keep government out of it. I want to do i dont like this idea of these boards. It all sounds to me like youre going to have some government setting price. I want competition and i want to pool the insurance and take care of it that way and have oh, heres the other point. I think medical care should go with the person. If you leave a business, i think your insurance should go with you to some other business. You shouldnt be worrying if you get a new job as to whether thats gonna and part of our plan is to make it what they call portable big word, but that means if youre working for the Jones Company and you go to the smith company, your insurance goes with you. I think its a good program. Im really excited about getting it done, too. Mr. Perot. We have the most Expensive Health care system in the world. 12 of our Gross Domestic Product goes to health care. Our industrial competitors, who are beating us in competition, spend less and have Better Health care. Japan spends a little over 6 of its Gross National product. Germany spends 8 . Its fascinating. Youve bought a front row box seat and youre not happy with your health care and youre saying tonight weve got bad health care but very Expensive Health care. Folks, heres why. Go home and look in the mirror. You own this country but you have no voice in it the way its organized now, and if you want to have a high risk experience, comparable to bungee jumping, go into congress some time when theyre working on this kind of legislation, when the lobbyists are running up and down the halls. Wear your safety toe shoes when you go. And as a private citizen, believe me, you are looked on as a major nuisance. The facts are you now have a government that comes at you. Youre supposed to have a government that comes from you. Now, there are all kinds of good ideas, brilliant ideas, terrific ideas on health care. None of them ever get implemented because let me give you an example. A senator runs every 6 years. Hes got to raise 20,000 bucks a week to have enough money to run. Whos he gonna listen to us or the folks running up and down the aisles with money, the lobbyists, the pac money . He listens to them. Who do they represent . Health care industry. Not us. Now, youve got to have a government that comes from you again. Youve got to reassert your ownership in this country and youve got to completely reform our government. And at that point theyll just be like apples falling out of a tree. The programs will be good because the elected officials will be listening to i said the other night i was all ears and i would listen to any good idea. I think we ought to do Plastic Surgery on a lot of these guys so that theyre all ears, too, and listen to you. Then you get what you want, and shouldnt you . You paid for it. Why shouldnt you get what you want, as opposed to what some lobbyist cuts a deal, writes a little piece in the law and he goes through. Thats the way the games played now. Till you change it youre gonna be unhappy. You wanted one brief point in there. One brief point. We have elections so people can make decisions about this. The point i want to make to you is, a Bipartisan Commission reviewed my plan and the bush plan and there were as many republicans as Democratic Health care experts on it. They concluded that my plan would cover everybody and his would leave 27 million behind by the year 2000 and that my plan in the next 12 years would save 2. 2 trillion in public and private money to reinvest in this economy and the average family would save 1200 a year under the plan that i offered without any erosion in the quality of health care so i ask you to look at that. And you have to vote for somebody with a plan. Thats what you have elections for. If people would say, well, he got elected to do this and then the congress says, okay, im going to do it. Thats what the election was about. We have a question right here. How has National Debt personally affected each of your lives, and if it hasnt, how can you honestly find a cure for the economic problems of the Common People if you have no experience in whats ailing them . May i answer that . Well, yes, of course. The question is for each of you. It caused me to disrupt my private life and business to get involved in this activity. Thats how much i care about it. And believe me, if you knew my family and the private life i have, you would agree in a minute that thats a whole lot more fun than getting involved in politics. But i have lived the american dream. Nobody has been luckier than i have been. All the way across the spectrum and the greatest riches of all are my wife and children. Thats true of any family. But i want all of the children i want these young people up here to be able to start with nothing but an idea like i did and build a business, but they have to have a strong basic economy. If youre in debt, its like having a ball and chain around you. I just figure as lucky as ive been, i owe it to them and i owe it to the future generations and on a very personal basis, i owe it to my children and grandchildren. I think the National Debt affects everybody. Obviously it has a lot to do with Interest Rates shes saying you, personally. How has it affected you . You personally. Im sure it has. I love my grandchildren how . I want to think that theyre going to be able to afford an education. I think thats an important part of being an important. If the question are you suggesting if somebody has means, that the National Debt doesnt affect them . Help me with the question and ill try to answer it. Ive had friends who have been laid off from jobs. I know people who cannot afford to pay the mortgage on their homes. I have personal problems with the National Debt. But how has it affected you . If you have no experience in it, how can you help us . I think she means more the recession, the economic problems today, the country faces rather than the deficit. You ought to be in the white house for a day and hear what i hear and see what i see and read the mail i read and touch the people that i touch from time to time. I was in the ame church, its a black church just outside of washington, d. C. , and i read in the bulletin about teenage pregnancies, about the difficulty that families are having to make ends meet. I talked to parents. You got to care. Everybody cares if people arent doing well. But i dont think it i dont think its fair to say, you havent had cancer, therefore you dont know what its like. I dont think its fair to say, you know, whatever it is, if you havent been hit by it personally. But everybody is affected by the debt because of the tremendous interest that goes into paying on that debt. Everything is more expensive. Everything comes out of your pocket and my pocket. Its that. But i think in terms of the recession, of course you feel it when youre president of the United States. Thats why im trying to do something about it by stimulating the export, investing more, better Education Systems. Thank you. Im glad to clarify. Tell me how its affected you, again . You know people who have lost their jobs and homes . Yeah. Well, ive been governor of a small state for 12 years. Ill tell you how its affected me. Every Year Congress and the president sign laws that make us do more things, give us less money to do it with. I see people in my state. Middle class people, their costs have gotten up and services have gone down. I have seen whats happened in this last four years when in my state, when people lose their jobs, theres a good chance i know them by their names. When the businesses go bankrupt, i know them. And ive been out here for 13 months meeting and meetings just like this ever since october with people like you all over america. People that have lost their jobs, lost their livelihoods and Health Insurance. What i want you to understand is, the National Debt is not the only cause of that. It is because america has not invested in its people. Its because we have not grown. It is because weve had 12 years of trickledown economics. Weve got from 1st to 12th in the world to wages. Most people are working harder for less money than they were making ten years ago. Its because were in the grip of a failed economic theory. And this decision youre about to make better be about what kind of economic theory you want. Not just people saying im going to go fix it, but what are we going to do . I think we need to invest in american jobs, education, control American Health care cost and is bring the American People together again. Were a little more than halfway through this program and im glad were getting the diversity of question that we are and i dont want to forget these folks on the wings over here. Do you have a question . My name is ben smith. I work in the financial field counseling retire rees and im concerned about three major areas, one is the Social Security administration or trust fund is projected to be insolvent by the year 2036 and we funded the trust fund with ious. The Pension Guarantee Fund which backs up our private retirement plans is projected to be bankrupt by the year 2026. And medcare is projected to be bankrupt maybe as soon as 1997 and i would like from each of you a specific response as to what you intend to do for retirees relative to these issues, not generalities but specifics because i think theyre very disturbing issues. Youre an expert and im sure i could learn details from you. The Social Security system was fixed about five years and i think its projected out to be sound beyond that. So at least we have time to work with it. But on all of these things, a sound economy is the only way to get it going. Growth in the economy is going to add to these add to the overall prosperity and wealth. I cant give you a specific answer on Pension Guarantee Fund. All i know is we have Firm Government credit to guarantee the pensions. And that is very important. But its the full faith of credit in the United States in spite of our difficulties is still pretty good. Its still the most respected credit. So i would simply say, as these dates get closer, youre going to have to reorganize and refix as we did with the Social Security fund. And i think thats the only answer. But the more immediate answer is to do what this lady is suggesting what we do is to get the deficit down and get out without adding to the woes and restructure. One thing ive called for thats been stimmeeed is a whole financial reform legislation. It is absolutely essential in terms of bringing our banking and Credit System into the new age instead of having it live in the dark ages. Its a big fight. And i dont want to give my friend ross another shot at me here, but i am fighting with the congress to get this through. You cant go up and say im going to fix it. You have some strong guys up there that argue with you. But thats what the election is about. I agree with the governor. Thats what the election is about. And sound fiscal policy is the best answer, i think to the all the problems you mentioned. Just on the broad issue here. When youre trying to solve a problem, you get the best plans. You have a raging debate about those plans. Then out of that debate with leadership comes consensus. Then if the plans are huge and complex like health care, i would urge you to implement Pilot Programs. Measure twice, cut once. Lets make sure this thing is as good as we all think it is at the end of the meeting. Our government passes laws and freezes the plan in concrete. Anybody thats ever built a successful business will tell you you optimize, optimize, optimize after you put something into effect. The reason theyre a mess is we froze them. Everybody knows how to fix them. If they could just touch it with a screwdriver could fix it. Back over here, weve got a 4 trillion debt and only in america would you have 2. 8 trillion of it or 70 of it financed five years or less. Thats another thing for you to think about when you go home tonight. You dont finance longterm debt with shortterm money. A 1 increase in the Interest Rates in that 2. 8 trillion is 28 billion a year. Now, when you look at what germany pays for money and what we dont pay for money, its quite a spread. You realize this is a temporary thing and theres going to be another sucking sound that runs our deficit. Were not investing that surplus like a pension fund. Were spending that surplus to make the deficit look smaller to you than it really is. That put you in jail. But in government, its the way things are. Thats because it comes at you not from you. That money needs to be they dont even pay interest on it. They write a note for the interest. Can you wrap it up . Do you want to fix the problem or sound bite. I understand the importance of time. A growing expanding job base, a growing expanding job base to generate the funds and the tax revenues to pay off the mess and rebuild america. If were 4 trillion down, we should have everything perfect, but we dont. We have to pay it off and build money to rebuild spend money to renew it and thats going to take a expanding job base. Thats priority one in this country. Put everybody who is breathing to work. I would love to be out of workers and have to import them. Mr. Perot, were trying to be fair to everyone. Absolutely. I apologize. I think i remember the question. [ laughter ] and let me say first of all, i want to answer your specific question, but first of all, we all agree that there should be a growing economy. What you have to decide is, who has the best economic plan. And we all have ideas out there and mr. Bush has a record. So i dont want you to read my lips and i sure dont you to read his. I hope you will read our plans. Specifically, one, on medicare, it is not true that everyone knows how to fix it. There are different ideas. The bush plan, the perot plan, the clinton plan. I am convinced to studying it and talking to hundreds and hundreds of people all across america that you cannot control the cost of medicare until you control the cost of private health care and Public Health care with managed competition, ceiling on costs, and radical reorganization of the insurance markets. Youve got to do that. We got to get the costs down. Number two, with regard to Social Security, that program, a lot of you may not know this, it produces a 70 billion surplus a year. Six increases in the payroll tax, people with incomes of 51,000 dollars a year orless, pay a higher share of the tax burden. What do we have to do . By the time the century turns, we have got to have our deficit under control so that surplus is building up so when the baby boomers like me retire, were okay. On the pension funds, i dont know as much about it, but i will say this. I would bring in the pension experts of the country, take a look at it, and strengthen the pension requirements further because its not just enough to have the guarantee. We had a guarantee on the snls, right . You picked up a 500 billion bill because of the dumb way the federal government deregulated. Were going to change the requirements on plans. I think we have a question here on international affairs, hopefully. Weve come to a position where were in a new world order and i would like to know what the candidates feel our position in this new world order and what our responsibilities are as a superpower. Mr. President , well, we have come to that position since i became president , 43, 44 countries have gone democratic. No longer totalitarian. No longer living under dictatorship or communist rule. This is exciting. This is new world order to me means freedom and democracy. I think we will have a continuing responsibility as the only remaining superpower to stay involved. If we pull back in some isolation and say we dont have to do our share or more than our share, anymore, i believe you can ask that well get involved in in the future. Nato has kept the peace for many, many years and i want to see us keep fully staffed in nato so well continue to guarantee the peace in europe. But the exciting thing is, the fear of nuclear war is down and you hear all of the bad stuff thats happened on my watch. I hope people will recognize that this is something pretty good for mankind. I hope theyll think its good that democracy and freak is on the move and were going stay engaged working to improve things. Its easy to say cut out foreign aid. I think the United States has the statue of liberty as a symbol. Were trying to get its the United States thats taken the lead in humanitarian aid into bosnia. Were doing this all around the world. Yes, we got problems at home, and i think i got a good plan to help fix those problems at home. But because of our leadership, because we didnt listen to the freeze the Nuclear Freeze group, freeze it in the late 70s. Dont touch it. Were going to lock it in now, unless we have war. President reagan said no, peace through strength and were working to help them become totally democratic through the freedom support act that i led on, a great democratic ambassador, jim baker, all of us got this thing passed through cooperation. It worked with cooperation and youre for that im sure, helping russia become democratic. It means freedom and democracy, keep engaged, do not pull back into isolation and we are the United States and we have a responsibility to lead and to quarantine t guarantee the security. If it hasnt been for us, Saddam Hussein would have Nuclear Weapons. Only the United States can do that. Thank you. Mr. Perot. Its pennies on the dollar compared to going back to the cold war. Russia is still unstable. They could back to square one and worse. Theres all the Nuclear Weapons are not dismantled. Im concerned about the intercontinental weapons, the ones that can hit us. We have agreements. All of the middle Eastern Countries going over there and shopping for weapons, we have our work cut out for us. We need to stay right on top of that and help them move forwards democracy and capitalism. We have to have money to do that. We have to have our people at work. For 45 years we were preoccupied with a red army. I thought now that our number one preoccupation is red ink in our country and we got to put our people back to work so that we can afford to do these things we want to do in russia. We cannot be the policeman for the world any longer. We spend 300 billion a year defending the world. Germany and japan spend about 30 billion apiece. If i can get you to defend me and i can spend all of my money building industry, thats a home run for me. Coming out of world war ii, it made sense. Now the other superpowers need to do their part. Ill close on this point. You cant be a superpower unless youre an economic superpower. If were not an economic superpower, were a used to be. If nothing else gets you excited about rebuilding our industrial base, maybe that will. Job one is to put our people back to work. The president mentioned Saddam Hussein. Your Vice President and you have had some words about the president and Saddam Hussein, would you care to answer . I would rather answer the question first. The end of the cold war brings an Incredible Opportunity for change, winds of freedom blowing around the world, russia demilitarizing, and it also requires us to maintain some continuity, some bipartisan american commitment to certain principles and i would just say there are three things that i would like to say. Number one, we do have to maintain the worlds strongest defense. We may differ about what the elements of that are. I think the defense needs to be with fewer people and Permanent Armed services. But with greater mobility on the land, in the air and on the sea, with a real dedication to continuing development of hightechnology weaponry and welltrained people. I think were going to have to work to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Have to keep going until all of the Nuclear Weapons are gone. Number two, if you dont rebuild the economic strength of this country at home, we wont be a superpower. We cant have anymore instances like what happened when mr. Bush went to japan and the japanese Prime Minister said he felt sympathy for our country. We have to be the strongest economic power in this world. Thats what got me into this race, so we could rebuild the american economy. We need to be a force for freedom and democracy and we need to support freedom whether its in haiti or in china or any other place, wherever the seeds of freedom are sprouting, we cant impose it, but we need to nourish it. And thats the kind of thing that i would do as president. Follow those three commitments into the future. We have a question up there. We talked a lot tonight about creating jobs. But we have an awful lot of High School Graduates who dont know how to read a ruler, who cannot fill out an application for a job. How can we create highpaying jobs with the Education System we have . And what would you do to change it . Thank you. Who would like to begin, the education president . I would be delighted to. You cant do it the old way. You cant do it with the School Bureaucracy controlling everything and thats why we have a new program that i hope people have heard about, its being worked now in 1,700 communities, bypassed congress on this one, ross. 1,700 communities across the country, its called america 2000. And it says reinvent the schools. Not just the not just the bricks and motrtar, but the curriculum and everything else. Were doing exactly that. And so i believe that we got to get the power in the hands of the teachers, not the teachers union. Whats happening up there . And so our america 2000 program also says this, it says, lets give parents the choice of a public, private, or public school. Public, private or Religious School and it works in milwaukee. Democratic woman up there taking the lead on this, the mayor on the program. And the school that is are not chosen, are improved, competition does that. So weve got to innovate through School Choice. We have to innovate through this america 2000 program. But shes absolutely right. The programs that weve been trying where you control everything and mandate it from washington dont work. The governors and i believe and governor clinton was in on this, but i dont to invoke him here. But they come to me and say they, please get the congress to stop passing so many mandates telling us how to control things. We know better how to do it in california or texas or wherever it is. So this is what our program is all about. And i believe youre right onto something. If we dont change the education, were not going to be able to compete. Federal funding for education is up substantially. Pell grants are up. But it isnt going to get the job done if we dont change k through 12. Let me say that i spent more of my time in life on this in the last 12 years than any other issue. 70 of my states money goes to the Public Schools and i was really honored when Time Magazine said that our schools showed more improvement than any other state in the country except one other. So i care a lot about this and i spent countless hours in schools. But let me start with what you said. I agree with some of what mr. Bush said, but its nowhere near enough. We live in a world where an 18yearold will change jobs eight times in a lifetime and what you do for a living is safe for run. Nobody can promise that. Theres too much change in the world. What should we do . Number one, under my program we would provide matching funds to states to teach everybody with a job to read in the next five years and get everybody with a job a chance to get a high school diploma. Number two, we would provide twoyear apprenticeship programs. We would open the doors to College Education and High School Graduates with regard to income. He could borrow the money and pay it back. We would fully fund the Head Start Program to get little kids off to a good start and, five, i would have an Aggressive Program of school reform. More choices in the i favor Public Schools or new charter schools. We can talk about that if we want. I dont think we should spend tax money on private schools and i favor decentralization in giving more power to bettertrained principles and teachers with Parent Councils to control their schools. Those things would revolutionize American Education and take us to the top economically. Thank you, governor clinton. What is it going to cost . In six years, i budget all this in my budget. In six years the College Program would cost 8 billion, over and above what the present student loan programs. And a billion dollars in bank fees. The net cost would be 8,000,000,006 years from now and a trillionplus budget. All the other stuff i mentioned, costs less than that. Its all covered in my budget from the plans that ive laid out from raising taxes on families with incomes above 200,000 and asking Foreign Corporations to pay the same tax that american corporations do on the same income. From 140 billion in budget cuts including what i think are very prudent cuts in the defense budget. Its all covered in the plan. I got scars to show about being around education reform and the first word you need to say and draw a line in the sand, Public Schools benefit for the good of the children. Any time youre spending 199 billion a year, somebody is getting it. And the children get lost in the process. So thats step one. Keep in mind in 1960 when our schools were the envy of the world, we were spending 16 billion on them. Now we spend more than any other nation in the world and rank in the bottom of the industrialized world. One more time, you brought a front row box seat and got a third rate performance. This is a government thats not serving you. You should be local. The more local the better. Small towns have good schools, big cities have terrible schools. The best people in the small town will serve in the school board. When you get in the big cities, you give jobs at 57,000 a youre paying for that. Those schools belong to you. And we put up with that. As long as you put up with that, thats what youre going to get. These folks are just dividing up 199 billion and children get lost. If i could wish for one thing, it would be a Strong Family unit. Nothing will replace that. The white house is a bully pulpit and we ought to be pounding on the table every day. The most efficient unit of government is a strong, loving family unit. Next thing, you need small schools, not big schools. A little school, everybody is somebody. Individualism is very important. These big factories, everybody told me they were cost effective. Theyre coast ineffective. 5,000 students, why is a high school that big . You have 11 boys that weigh 250 pounds and they might win district. That has nothing to do with learning. In texas, half the school day was nonacademic pursuits. In one place it was 35 . In texas, you could have unlimited absences to go to livestock shows. Boy in houston kept a chicken in the bathtub in downtown houston. Missed 65 days going to livestock shows. Thats your tax money being wasted. Neighborhood schools. It is terrible to bus tiny little children across town and it is particularly terrible to wait until first grade to bus them across the town where the children know their numbers and letters. I close on this, weve got to have world class teachers and world class books. If you got close to how textbooks were selected, you wouldnt want to go back the second day. I dont have time to tell you the stories. No, you dont. Finally, finally, if we dont fix this, we cant have the industries of tomorrow unless we have the best educated workforce. And youve got to have Early Childhood development, First Contact should be with the mother when shes pregnant. That little child needs to be loved and hugged and nurtured and made to feel special. They learn to think well thank you. Thank you, mr. Me row. They either learn how to learn or dont know how to learn. If they dont, they wind up in prison and cost more to keep them in prison than it does to send them to harvard. I rest my case. President bush . I just had a word of clarification because of something governor clinton had. My School Choice program, g. I. Bill for kids, does not take public money and give it to private schools. It does what the g. I. Bill itself did. When i came out of world war ii, it takes public money and gives it to families or individuals to choose the school i that want. And where its been done, those schools like in rochester, those schools that werent chosen, find that they then compete and do better. So i think its worth a shot. Weve got a Pilot Program, it thought to be tried. School choice, public, private, or religious. Not to the schools. 46 of the teachers in Chicago Public schoolteachers, send their kids to private school. I think we ought to try to help families and see if it will do what i think to make all schools better. Very briefly. Involving the parents in the preschool education can make a huge difference. We have a big program in my state that teachers mothers or fathers to get ready for school. Just a fact clarification. We do not spend a higher percentage of our income on Public Education than every other country. There are Nine Countries that spend more than we do on Public Education. We spend more on education because we spend so much more on colleges. If you look at Public Education alone and take into account the fact that we have more racial diversity and poverty, it makes a difference. There are great Public Schools. Where theres public School Choice and accountability. The Beasley Academic Center in chicago, i recommend it to anybody. Its as good as any private school in the country. We have little time left. We have talked all this time and there has not been one question about some of the racial and ethnic tensions in america. Is there anyone in this audience that would like to pose a question to the candidates on this . Yes. What i would like to know, and this is to any of the three of you, aside from the recent accomplishments of your party, aside from those accomplishments, in racial representation, and without citing any of your current appointments or successful elections, when do you estimate your party will both nominate and elect an afro meamerican an female ticket to the United States. Governor clinton, why dont you answer to that first . I dont have any idea, but i hope it will happen in my lifetime. I do, too. I believe that this country is electing more and more africanamericans and latinos and asianamericans who are representing districts that are themselves, not necessarily a majority of their race. The American People are beginning to vote across racial lines, and i hope it will happen more and more. More and more women are being elected. Look at all these women Senate Candidates we have here. You know, according to my mother and my wife and my daughter, this world we would a lot better place if women were running it most of the time. I do think there are special experiences and judgments and backgrounds and understandings that women bring to this process, by the way. This lady said here, how have you been affected by the economy . I mean, women know what its like to be paid an unequal amount for equal work. They know what its like to not have family child care. I think it will happen in my lifetime. Im sorry, we have just a little bit of time left. Lets try to get responses from each of them. President bush or mr. Perot . I think if barbara bush were run thing year, she would be elected. You dont want us to mention appointees, but when you see the quality of people in our administration, see how colin powell performed i say administration. You werent impress im extremely impressed. Wouldnt that stress to the sure, i just im totally impressed with that, but when is your guess when . I dont know. Starting after four years. I think youll see more minority candidates and women candidates coming forward. This is supposed to be the year of the women in the senate. Mr. Tee roperot, we only hav minute left. Colin powell whether be on somebodys ticket four years from now, right . Right . Thats it, four years. How about a woman . If he wont be, general waller. Why do you keep picking military people . These are people that i just happen to know and have a high regard for. Im sure there are hundreds of others. How about dr. Lou sullivan. Absolutely. What about a woman . Oh, no. My candidate is back there. Okay. I can think of many many . Absolutely. When . How about sandra day o connor. Name some more. Thank you. I want to apologize to our audience, because there were 209 people here and 09 questi209 qu and we only got to a fraction of those. We must move to the conclusion of the program. It is time now for the twominute closing statements. And by prior agreement, president bush will go first. May i ask for an exception . Because i think we owe Carol Simpson anybody can stand in between these three characters, we owe her a round of applause. Dont take it out of my time. Thats right. I feel strongly about it, but i dont want it to come out of my time. Let me just say to the American People, in 2 1 2 weeks were going to choose who should sit in this oval office, who to lead the economic recovery. Who to be the leader of the free world. Who to get the deficit down. Three ways to do that. One is to raise taxes. One is to reduce spending, controlling that mandatory spending. Another one is to invest and save and stimulate growth. I do not want to raise taxes. Im just not going to do that. I do believe we need to control mandatory spending. I think we need to invest and save more. I believe we need to educate better and retrain better. I believe that we need to export more, so ill keep working for export agreements so we can sell more abroad. And i believe that we must strengthen the family. Weve got to strengthen the family. Let me pose this question to america. If in the next five minutes, a Television Announcer came on and said there is a Major International crisis, there is a major threat to the world, or in this country, a major threat, my question is, who if you were appointed to name one of the three of us, who would you choose . Who has the perseverance, the character, the integrity, the maturity to get the job done . I hope im that person. Thank you very, very much. Thank you, mr. President. And now a closing statement from mr. Perot. If the American People want to do it and not talk about it, then they ought to, you know, im one person they ought to consider. If they just want to keep slow dancing and talk about it and not do it, im not your man. I am results oriented. I am action oriented. Ive done my businesses getting things done in three months that my competitors took 18 months to do. Congress is theyre all good people, theyre all patriots, but you have to link arms and work with them. Sure youll have arguments and fights. We have them all day every day. But which get the job done. Now, i have to come back to my close, because im passionate about education. I was talking about Early Childhood education for disadvantaged little children. Let me tell you one specific Pilot Program where children who dont have a chance to go this program when theyre 3. Now were going back to when the mother pregnant and start after theyre born. But starting when theyre 3 and going to this school until theyre 9 and then going into the public school, in the fourth grade, 90 are on the honor role. Now, that will change america. Those children will all go to college. They will live the american dream, and i beg the American People, any time they think about reforming education, to take this piece of society that doesnt have a chance and take these little pieces of clay that can be shaped and molded, and give them the same love and nurture and affection and support you give your children, and teach them that theyre unique and precious and theres only one person in the world like them. And you will see this nation bloom. And we will have so many people who are qualified for the top job that it whether be terrific. Finally, if you cant pay the bills, youre dead in the water. And we have got to put our nation back to work. If you dont want to really do that, im not your man. I could go crazy up there slow dancing that one. Unless were going to do it, then pick someone who likes to talk about it. Just remember when you think about me, i didnt create this mess. Ive been paying taxes just like you. And lord knows ive paid my share. Over a billion dollars in taxes. And for a guy that started out with everything he owned in the trunk of his car, that aint bad. I wish you well. Ill see you tomorrow night on nbc, 10 30 to 11 00 eastern. [ laughter ] finally, last but not least, governor clinton. Thank you, carrol, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Sense i suggested this format, i hope its been good for all of you. I really tried to be faithful to your request that we answer the questions specifically and pointedly. I thought i knowed that to you and i respect you for being here and the impact youve had on making this a more positive experience. These problems are not easy, theyre not going to be solved overnight. But think about two or three things. First of all, the people of my state have let me be their governor for 12 years because i made commitments to more jobs and better schools. Our schools are now better, our children get off to a better start from preschool programs and smaller classes in the early grades and we had one of the most aggressive Adult Education programs in the country. We talked about that. This year my state ranks first in the country in job growth, fourth in manufacturing job growth. Fourth in income growth, fourth in the decline in poverty. Im proud of that. It happened because i could work with people, republicans and democrats. Thats why we have had 24 retired generals and admirals, many Business People support this campaign. You have to decide whether you want to change or not. We do not need four more years of an economic theory that doesnt work. We have had 12 years of trickle down economics. Its time to put the American People first to invest and grow this economy. Im the only person here whoever balanced the government budget and presented 12 of them and cut spending repeatedly. But you cant just get there by balancing the budget. We have to grow the economy by putting you first. I did not want my child to grow up and be part of the first generation of americans to do worse than their parents. I want to make america as great as it can be. And i ask for your help in doing it. Thank you very much. Thank you, governor clinton. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the debate sponsored by the Bipartisan Commission on president ial debates. We would like to thank our audience of 209 uncommitted v t voters, hopefully theyll go to the polls like everyone else november 3rd and vote. Join us on the 3rd and final president ial debate next monday, october 19th, from the campus of Michigan State university in eastern lansing, michigan. Im carol timpson. Good night. [ applause ] youre watching American History tv. Every weekend on cspan3,