Tonights 90 minute debate coming from the university of richmond in richmond, virginia. Tonights program is unlike any other president ial debate in history. Were making history now and its pretty exciting. An independent polling firm has selected an audience of 209 uncommitted voters from this area. The candidates will be asked questions by these voters on a topic of their choosing. Anything they want to ask about. My job as moderator is to, you know, take care of the questioning, ask questions myself if i think there needs to be continuity and balance, and sometimes i might ask the candidates to respond to what another candidate may have said. Now, the format has been agreed to by representatives of both the republican and democratic campaigns. And there is no subject matter that is restricted. Anything goes. We can ask anything. After the debate the candidates will have an opportunity to make a closing statement. So president bush, i think you said it earlier, lets get it on. Lets get it on. And i think the first question is over here. Yes, id like to direct my question to mr. Perot. What will you do as president to open foreign markets to fair competition from American Business and to stop unfair competition here at home from Foreign Countries so that we can bring jobs back to the United States . Thats right at the top of my agenda. Weve shipped millions of jobs overseas. And we have a strange situation because we have a process in washington where after youve served for a while, you cash in, become a foreign lobbyist, make 30,000 a month, take a leave and work on president ial campaigns, make sure youve got good contacts and then go back out. If you just want to get down to brass tax, first thing youve got to do is get these folks with oneway trade agreements negotiated over the years and say folks, well take the same deal we gave you. Theyll gridlock at that point. For example, weve got International Competitors who simply could not unload their cars off the ships. If they had to comply, if its a twoway street, couldnt do it. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. To those of you in the audience who are business people, pretty simple, if youre paying 12, 13 14 for factory workers and you can move your factory south to the border, pay 1 an hour for labor, lets assume youve been in business for a long time. Mature workforce, may 1 an hour for your labor, have no health care, thats the most expensive single element in making a car, have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement, and you dont care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. So we if the people send me to washington the first thing ill do is study that 2,000 page agreement and make sure its a twoway street. One last point here, ive called i decided i was dumb and didnt understand it so i called the whos who of the folks who have been around it. I said why wont people go south . They said it will be disruptive. And that is when their jobs come up from 1 an hour to 6 an hour, and ours go down, its level again. But in the meantime youve wrecked the country with these kinds of deals. Weve got to cut it out. Thank you, mr. Perot. I see the president has stood up. He must have something to say about this. Carol, the thing that saved us in this Global Economic slowdown has been our exports. And what im trying to do is increase our exports. And if, indeed, all the jobs were going to move south because of lower wages, theyre lower wages now and they havent done that. I have just negotiated with the president of mexico, the north American Free trade agreement and the Prime Minister of canada, i might add. And i want to have more of these free trade agreements because export jobs are increasing, far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. Thats a scare tactic because its not that many. Baa anyone thats here, we want to have more jobs here and the way to do that is to increase our exports. Some believe in protection. I dont. I believe in free and fair afraid and thats the thing that saved us and so i will keep on as president trying to get a successful conclusion to the gat round, the big uruguay round of trade which will really open up markets for agriculture particularly. I want to continue to work after we get this nafta agreement ratified this coming year i want to get one with eastern europe. I want to get one with chile and free and fair trade is the answer. Its exports that have saved us, exports that have built. Governor clinton. Id like to answer the question because ive actually been a governor for 12 years so ive known a lot of people whove lost their jobs because of jobs moving overseas and i know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand our export base and to expand trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to mexico, for example, have gone up and our trade deficits gone down and its also true today a record high trade deficit was announced with japan. What is the answer . Let me mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them. If theyre not, have measures on the books that dont take forever and a day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions in the tax code for shutting plants down and moving them overseas than there are for modernizing plant equipment here. Our competitors dont do that. Emphasize and subsidize modernizing plant and equipment here, not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal Governments Program that now gives low interest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries, but we wont do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade, but on fair terms, and favor investment in america. Thank you. I think we have a question over here. This is for governor clinton. In the real world, that is outside of washington, d. C. , compensation and achievement are based on goals defined and achieved. The deficit my question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar goals how much you would reduce the deficit in each of the four years of a Clinton Administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American People that if you tidd not achieve those goals that you would not seek a second term . Answer yes, or no, and then comment on your answer, please. No, and heres why. And ill tell you exactly why. Because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. Ill tell you exactly what i think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50 in four years and grow the economy. I could get rid of it in four years in theory on the books now but to do it youd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them and it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan says that it will bring the deficit down in five years, but it will make unemployment bad for four more years. So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy, and reduce the deficit. By Controlling Health care costs, prudent reductions in defense, cuts in domestic programs and asking the wealthiest americans in Foreign Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and investing and growing this economy. I ask everybody to look at my economic ideas and nine no bell prizes and over 500 economists and hundreds of business people, including a lot of republicans said this is the way youve got to go, if you dont grow the economy, you cant get it done. I cant foresee all the things that will be happening and i dont think a president should be judged on the deficit. Youll have a shot in four years, and vote me right out if you think ive done a lousy job. I welcome you to do that. Mr. President. Well, ive got a im a little confused here. I dont see how you can grow the deficit down by raising peoples taxes. I dont think the American People are taxed too little, i think theyre taxed too much. I went for one tax increase and when i make a mistake, i admit. Said that wasnt the right thing to do. Governor clintons program wants to tax more and spend more, 150 billion in new taxes, spend another 220. I dont believe thats the way to do it. Heres what helps. Get us a balanced bunlt amendment. Arkansas has a balanced bunt, and they do, have to do it. Id like the government to have that. And i think it would discipline not only the congress which needs it but also the executive branch. Id like to have what 43 governors have, the line item veto. If the congress cant cut and weve got a reckless spending congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. Id propose another one. Some sophisticates think it may be gimmicky, its a check off, pay a tax of 1,000, check 10 of that in one box, and that 10 , 100, or if youre paying 10,000, whatever it is, 1,000, check it off and make the government make it lower the deficit by that amount. And if the Congress Wont do it. If they cant get together and negotiate how to do that, then youd have a sequester across the board. Youd exempt social security. I dont want to tax or touch social security. Im the president that said, hey, dont mess with social security, and we havent. I believe we need to control the growth of mandatory spending back to this gentlemans question, thats the main growing thing in the budget. The whole the program that the president twothirds of the budget, i as president never get to look at. Never get to touch. Weve got to control that growth to inflation and population increase. But not raise taxes on the American People. Now, i just dont believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. How about you, mr. Perot . Well, with 4 trillion in debt, going into debt on additional 1 billion, little more than 1 billion every working day of the year. Im just a businessman, i was down in texas taking care of business, tending to my family and this situation got so bad that i decided i better get into it. The American People asked me to get into it. But i just find it fascinating that while we sit here tonight we will go into debt an additional 50 million in an hour and a half. Now, its not the republicans fault, of course, and its not the democrats fault and what im looking for is who did it. Now, the two folks involved, maybe put them together, they did it. The facts are, we have to fix it. We are leaving im here tonight for these young people up here in the balcony. When i was a young man, got out of the navy, multiple job offers, young people with higher grades cant get a job. The 18 to 24yearold High School Graduates, ten years ago were making more than they are now, in other words we were down to 18 of them, were making that of the 18 to 24yearolds were making less than 12,000. Now thats up to 40 . Whats happened in the meantime, the dollar has gone through the floor. Not democrats, not republicans, somewhere out there theres an extraterrestrial doing this to us. They take responsibility, somebody, somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put it to you bluntly, American People, if you want me to be your president , were going to face our problems, deal with the problems, solve our problems, pay down our debt, pass on the American Dreams to our children and i will not leave our children a situation that they have today. When i was a boy, took two generations to double the standard of living. Today it will take 12 generations. Will not see the American Dream because of this debt that somebody, somewhere dropped on us. Youre all wonderful speakers and i know you have lots more to add and ive talked to this audience and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please . We have one up here, i think. Yes, id like to address all the candidates with this question. The amount of time the candidates have spent in this campaign trashing their opponents character and their programs is depressingly large. Why cant your discussions and proposals reflect the genuine complexity and the difficulty of the issues to try to build a consensus around the best aspects of all proposals . Who wants to take that one. Mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, dont you, go right ahead, sir. No, i dont have an answer for everything. As you all know ive been buying 30minute segments to talk about issues. And tomorrow night, on nbc, from 10 10 30 to 11 00 eastern were going to talk about bringing the debt down. Saturday night on abc 800 number. I couldnt agree with you more. And i have said again and again and again lets get off of mud wrestling and personalities and lets talk about jobs, health care, crime, the things that concern the American People. Im spending my money, not foreign money, my money to take this message to the people. Thank you, mr. Perot. That seems, directed, he would say its you gentlemen that have been doing that. Governor clinton oh, president bush, how would you like to respond . First place, i believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of candidate for president or being president. In terms of programs, ive submitted, what, four different budgets to the United States congress in great detail, theyre so heavy theyd give you, you know, a broken back. And everything in there says what i am for. Now ive come out with a new agenda for americas renewal, plan that i believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on World Affairs is pretty wellknown because ive been president for four years. I feel like ive been talking issues. Nobody likes the who shot john. But i think the first negative campaign right in this election was by governor clinton and im not going to sit there and be a punching bag. Im going to stand up and say, hey, listen, heres my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night governor clinton raised my i dont know if you saw the debate the other night. Suffered through that. Well, he raised the question of my father, it was a good line, well rehearsed, well delivered. But he raised the question of my father and said, well, your father was against mccarthy, you should be ashamed of yourself. Mccarthyism. I remember something my dad told me. I was 18 years old, going to penn station to go into the navy. And he said write your mother, which i faithfully did, h thatt i feel. Thats el passionately about. Im thinking of ross perots running mate sitting in the jail, how would he feel about it . But maybe thats generational. I dont know. But the big argument i have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues. Trying to be one thing to one person here thats opposing the nafta agreement, and then for it. What we call waffling. And i do think that you cant turn the white house into the waffle house. Youve got to say what youre for. And youve got to mr. President , im getting time cues. I get wound up because i feel strongly. Yes, you do. Let me say first of all to you that i believe so strongly in the question you asked that i suggested this format tonight. I started doing these formats a year ago in new hampshire. And i found that we had huge crowds because all i did was let people ask questions and i tried to give very specific answers and i also had a Program Starting last year. Ive been disturbed by the tone and the tenor of this campaign. Thank goodne dont have to go blue in the face name, mr. Bush said i was tonight going to mr. Quail said that, all the Networks Said thats not true, hes got over 100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. Im not going to take up your time tonight. Let me just say this. Well have a debate in four days and well talk about this character thing again. But the Washington Post ran a long editorial saying they couldnt believe mr. Bush was making character an issue and they said he was the greatest political chameleon for taking issues. The Washington Post, god. You dont have to believe that. Heres my point. Im not interested in his character. I want to change the character of the presidency and im interested in what we can trust him to do and what you can trust me to do and what you can trust mr. Perot to do for the next four years. I think youre right and i hope the rest of the night belongs to you. May i i talked to this audience before you gentlemen came and i asked them about how they felt about the tenor of the campaign. Would you like to let them know what you thought about that when i said are you pleased with how the campaigns been going . Who wants to say why you dont like the way the campaign is going . We have a gentleman back here . If i may. And forgive the notes here, but im shy on camera. The focus of my work is domestic mediator is meeting the needs of the children that i work with, by way of their parents, and not the wants of their parents. And i asked the three of you, how can we as symbolically the children of the future president expect the two of you, the three of you to meet our needs, the needs in housing and in crime, and you name it, as opposed to the wants of your political spin doctors and your political parties. So your question is. Can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud . I think theres a need, if we could take a poll here, with the folks from gallup perhaps, i think theres a real need to focus at this point on the needs. How do you gentlemen respond to i agree with him. Lets do it. President bush . Lets do it, lets talk about programs for children. Could i ask one other thing . Yeah. Could we cross our hearts and it sounds silly, could we make a commitment, not under oath at this point, but can you make a commitment to the citizens of the United States to meet our needs and we have many, and not yours, again. I repeat that. Its a real need, i think, that we all have. It depends how you define it. I think in general lets talk about these lets talk about these issues. Lets talk about the programs. But in the presidency a lot goes into it, caring goes into it. Thats not particularly specific. Strength goes into it. Thats not specific. Standing up against aggression, thats not specific. In terms of a program. This is what a president has to do. So in principle, ill take your point and think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is. And you too . Ross had his hand up. No hedges, no ifs, ands and buts, ill take the pledge, i know the American People want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism. Ill take the pledge and will stay on the issues. Now, just for the record, i dont have any spin doctors, i dont have any speech writers. Probably shows. I make those charts you see on television even. Now, but you dont have to wonder if its me talking what you see is what you get and if you dont like it youve got two other choices, right . One thing now, ross, in fairness, the ideas i express are mine, ive worked on these things for 12 years and im the only person up here who hasnt been part of washington in any way for the last 20 years. So i dont want the implication to be that somehow everything we say just cooked up and put in our head by somebody else. I worked 12 years very hard as a governor on the real problems of real people. Im just as sick as you are by having to wake up and figure out how to defend myself every day. I never thought id ever be involved in anything like this. May i finish . Yes, you may finish. I dont have any foreign money in my campaign, any foreign lobbyists on leave, i dont have any pac money in my campaign. Ive got 5. 5 million hard working people who put me on the ballot and i belong to them. Ive already taken the pledge on cutting the deficit in half. I never got to say that. Its a great young group, lead or leave, college students, young people who dont want us to spend our money. I took the pledge, we cut it out. We have a question here. I would like to get a response from all three gentlemen, the question is, what are your plans to improve the physical infrastructure of this nation, which includes the water system, the sewer system, our transportation systems, et cetera, thank you. The cities. Whos going to fix the cities and how . Be glad to take a shot at it. Please. Im not sure that and i can understand if you havent seen this because theres been a lot of we passed this year the most furthest looking transportation bill in the history of this country since eisenhower started the interstate highways, 150 billion for improving the infrastructure. That happened when i was president. And so im very proud of the way that came about. And i think its a very, very good beginning. Like mr. Perot. I am concerned about the deficits, and 150 billion is a lot of money, but its awful hard to say were going to go out and spend more money when were trying to get the deficit down. But i would cite that as a major accomplishment. We hear all the negatives. When youre president you expect this. Everybodys running against the incumbent. They can do better. Everyone knows that. But heres something that we can take great pride in because it really does get to what youre talking about. Our home initiative. Our Home Ownership initiative, hope to pass the congress, is a good start for having people own their own homes instead of living in these deadly tenements. Our enterprise zones at a we hear a lot of lip service about in congress would bring jobs into the inner city. Theres a good program. And i need the help of everybody across this country to get it passed in substantial way by the congress. When we went out to south central, in los angeles, some of you may remember the riots there. I went out there, went to a boys club, and every one of them, the boys club leaders, the ministers, all of them were saying pass enterprise zones. We go back to washington, and very difficult to get it through the congress but theres a new congress, no one likes gridlock. Theres a new congress, the old one, i dont want to get this man mad at me, but there was a post Office Scandal and a bank scandal, a lot of new members of congress and then you can sit down and say help me do what we should for the cities, help me pass these programs. Mr. President , arent you threatening to veto the bill, the urban aid bill that included enterprise zones . Sure, but the problem is you get so many things included in a great big bill that you have to look at the overall good. Thats the problem with our system, if you had a line item veto, you could knock out the pork, you could knock out the tax increases and do what the people want and that is create enterprise zone. Governor clinton. Youre chomping at the bit. That bill pays for these urban enterprise zones. By asking the wealthiest americans to pay a little more and thats why he wants to veto it. Like he vetoed an earlier bill this year, this is not mud slinging, this is fact slinging, a bill earl year this year, this is facts, that would have given investment tax credits and other incentives to reinvest in our cities, in our country, but it asked the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. Mr. Perot wants to do the same thing. I agree with him. I mean, we agree with that. Let me tell you specifically what my plan does. My plan would dedicate 20 billion a year in each of the next four years for investments in new transportation, communications, environmental cleanups and new technologies for the 21st century and we would target it, especially in areas that have been either depressed or which have lost a lot of defense related jobs. There are 200,000 people in california, for example, who have lost their defense related jobs. They ought to be engaged in making high speed rail. They ought to be engaged in breaking ground in other technologies, doing waste recycling, Clean Water Technology and things of that kind. We can create millions of jobs in these new technologies, more than were going to lose in defense, if we target it, but were investing a much smaller percentage of our income in the things you just asked about, then all of our major competitors, and our wealth growth is going down as a result. Its making the country poorer which is why i answered the gentleman the way i did before. We have to both bring down the deficit and get your economy going through these kind of investments to get the kind of wealth and jobs and incomes we need in america. Mr. Perot, what about your plans for the cities . You want to tackle the economy and the deficit first. Youve got to have money to pay for these things. Youve got to create jobs. All kinds of ways to create jobs in the inner. Im not the politician, but i think i could get this bill signed. Democrat leaders and Republican Leaders want it. But since they are bred from childhood to fight with one another rather than get results, i would be glad to drop out and spend a little time and see if we couldnt build some bridges. Results is what counts. The president cant Order Congress around. Congress cant order the president around. Thats not bad for a guy thats never been there, right, but you have to work together. Now, i have talked to the chairman of the committees. They want this. Theyre democrats. The president wants it. But we cant get it. Because we sit here and gridlock because its a campaign year. We didnt fund a lot of other things, like the savings and loan mess, another big story well pay a big price after the election for. The facts are, the American People are hurting. Were shipping the low quote, low paying jobs overseas. What are low paying jobs, textile, shoes, things like that that are yesterdays industries. In my case if im out of work ill cut grass. Ill be happy to make shoes and clothing. Ill make sausage. You just give me a job, put those jobs in the inner cities instead of doing diplomatic deals and shipping them to china where prison labor does the work. Mr. Perot, everybody thought you won the first debate because you were plain speaking and you made it sound, oh, so simple, well just do it. What makes you think that youre going to be able to get the democrats and republicans together any better than these guys . If you asked me, can i fly a fighter plane or be an astronaut, ive spent my life creating jobs, its something i know how to do. Small businesses is the way to jump start are you answering my question . You want jobs in the inner city. I want you to tell me how youre able to get the republicans and democrats in congress to work together, better than these two gentlemen. Ive listened to both sides. If they would talk to one another instead of throwing rocks, i think we could get a lot done. Anding on other things, i would say okay over here in this senate committee, to the chairman who is anxious to get this bill passed, the president is anxious, id say rather than just yelling at one another, why dont we find out where were apart, try to get together, get the bill passed, and give the people the benefits and not play Party Politics right now. And i think the press would follow that so closely that probably they would get it done. Thats the way i would do it. I doubt if theyll give me the chance but i will drop everything and go work on it. I have a question here. My question was energily for governor clinton, but i think i would welcome a response from all three candidates. As you are aware crime is rampant in our cities. And in the richmond area, and im sure its happening elsewhere, 12yearolds are carrying guns to school. And im sure when our Founding Fathers wrote the constitution they did not mean for the right to bear arms to apply to 12yearolds. So im asking, where do you stand on gun control, and what do you plan to do about it . Abo . I support right to keep and bear arms. I believe we have to have a way of checking handguns before theyre sold. I port the brady bill, that would repose a national waiting period unless and until a state did what only virginia has done now which is to automate its records. Once you automate your records you dont have to have a waiting period but at least you should check. I also think that we should have restrictions on assault weapons whose only chance is to kill. The third thing that i think is not directly gun control, but we need more police on the street. There is a crime bill that was killed for this session. And i think it is a shame it didnt pass. I think it should be made the law, but it had the brady bill in it, the waiting law. I think we should offer College Scholarships and i think as we reduce our military forces they should earn a military retirement. 30 years ago there was three Police Officers on the street for every crime. Now it is three crimes for every officer. You have seen seen crime go down. You have seen a drop in the crime rate because of the work that the governor did there. I think you put your finger on a major problem if is hard to do that when people are scared to have their kid walk down the street to get bread. You dont want endless repeals. So when someone is sentenced, this is for real. If a cop stops someone and makes a technical mistake the criminal the doesnt go away. I think we need stronger death penalties for those that kill Police Officers. Im not for the National Registration of firearms. Some of the states with the toughest antigun laws have the highest level of crime. I dont think you ought to eliminate all kinds of weapons, but i was not for the bill that he was talking about. It is an eternal order of police. Im trying to strengthen the anticrime legislation. We have more money going out for local police than any previous administration. We have to get it under control and there is one last point that i would make. Drugs. We have to win our nation that strategy against drugs. Were making some progress. Were not doing as well amongst the people that are habitual drug users. Teenager use is down of cocaine, substantially, 60 . So were making progress but until we i could comment on this oh, okay, excuse me. Homicide is the leading cause of death from young blackmails, what will you do to get the guns off of the street . Youll find that we as a rule v all kinds of great programs laying around. Competitiveness, health care, crime, you name it. I agree that it is a step in the right direction, but it wont fix it. What it really boils down to is can you live, we have become so preoccupied with the rights of the criminal that we forgot the rights of the innocent. We have pull mills of innocent people in jail. They have put themselves in jail to protect the things that they have legitimately. That is people that will play by the rules and get the balance that we require in will take building a consensus in crass roots america. From the bottom up. At that point we can pick from a variety of plans and develop new plans and the way you get things done is bury yourselves, take it to the American People, you the electr electronic town hall, build a consensus, do it and go on to the next one. Thank you, thank you mr. Perot. We have a question up here. Please state your position on term limits and if youre in favor of them how will you get them enacted. Any order . I am grad to respond. I strongly support term limits for members of the United States congress. I believe it would return the government closer to the people the way that ross perot is talking about. The president s turm is limited to two, a total of eight years. Whats wrong with limiting the terms of the members of congress to 12 . Congress has gotten institution i institutionalized. And a bank that has more over drafts that all of the chase bank and city bank put together. We have to do something about it, and i think that there is a certain arrogance of people that stay there too long, so i strongly favor term limits. How do you get them past . Send us some people that will pass the idea. I think they want it done. You would have to have some amendments to the constitution because of the way it razes. I know theyre popular, but im against it and i will tell you why. I believe, number one, that it would pose a real problem for a lot of smaller states in the congress to have enough trouble now making sure theyre interests are hurd. Number two i think it would increase the influence of unelected Staff Members in the congress who have too much influence already. I want to cut the side of the congressional staffs, but i think youre going to have too much influence there. Number three, if the people really have a mind to change, they can. Youre going to have 120 to 150 new members of congress. Let me tell you what i favor instead. Requirements of people running for Congress Appearing in open public debates like were doing now. Challenges like me could run like him. And the voters could make up their own mind. That is how i feel about it. I think if we had the right campaign ri form we would get the changes we would like. Yes, let me do it first on a personal level. I intend to be there one term, i dont want to spend one minute of one day thinking about relix. I would take absolutely no compensation. I go as their servant. I have set as much of an example as i can. Tomorrow night i will be talking about government reform if is a long subject. But the point is, if you are here tomorrow night, but we have to reform government. If you perm term limits in you wont get what you thought. We need the reforms, and the term limits, good people will go serve and then go back to their homes and not become lobbyists. Theyre all nice people, theyre just in a bad system. I dont think there are any villains, by but boy is the sys wrong. Do you acontribute the rising cost of health care, and what are your solutions for this. I have had more people talk to me about Health Care Problems more than anything else. All across america. People who lost their jobs, their businesses, had to give up their jobs because of sick children, so let me try to answer you in this way. Lets start with a premise. We spend 30 more of our income than any nation on earth on health care. Yet we ensure fewer people. We have 35 Million People without any insurance at all. I see them all of the time. 100,000 americans a month have lost their Health Insurance just in the last four years. So if you analyze where youre out of place, we are spending money on regulation that would not be spent in any other nation. So we have to have, in my judgment, a drastic simplification of the basic insurance policies of this company. Employers would cover their employees, government covering the unemployed. Number two you have to take on the Insurance Companies and require them to make some significant change in the way they rate people in the Big Community pools. I think you have to tell the pharmaceutical companies they cant keep raising drug prices at three times the rate. I think you have to take on medical fraud. I think you have to help doctors stop practicing defensive medicine. I think you have to have a system of primary and preventive clinics in our inner cities and our rule in our areas. We are all coverd in big groups and we have doctors and hospitals and there is an incentive to control costs. And there has to be a National Commission of health care providers, consumers, and plus population growth. Some people say hawaii covers their premium. New york now has a plan to cover everybody. This is very important. It is a big human problem. I will send a plan to do this in the first 100 days of my presidency. I just have to say something, and i dont want to stampede, ross was very arctic lace. I dont want anyone to stampede to cut the president s salary off all together. Barbara is over here, but what i proposed was a 10 cut, downside the government and well get it done. She asked whether or not the Health Care Profession was to blame. No. One thing to blame is these malpractice lawsuits. Theyre breaking the system. It cost 20 to 25 billion a year and i want to see those outrageous claims capped. Doctors dont dare to deliver babies sometimes because theyre afraid that someone will sue them. People dont dare medical practicers, to help someone along the highway hurt because theyre aafraid a lawyer will come along and give them a big lawsuit. So you cant blame the practicers. Keep the government as far out as possible. Make insurance available through vouchers. And get on about the business of pooling insurance. A great big company, a good size company, they all get together. And they pool, they to can bring coot cost of income. Dont like the idea of the boards. It sounds to me like a government setting the produce. And here is the other point, i think medical care should go with the person. If you leave a business i think your insurance to go with you to another business. You should not worry if you get a new job. If youre working for Jones Company and you go to the smith company, your insurance goes with you. I think it is a good program and im excited about getting it done, too. 12 of our Gross National product is health care. They spend less and they have Better Health care. Japan spends a little over 6 . It is fascinating, its a front row box seat and youre not happy with your health care and youre saying we have bad health care but very Expensive Health care. Here is why. Go home and look in the mirror. You own this country but you have to voice in it the way it is organized now. If you want to have a high risk experience comparable to bungee jumping, go into congress sometime. You have the shoes on when you go. As a private citizen youre looked on as a major nuisance. Youre supposed to have a government that comes from you. There are all kinds of good ideas, brilliant ideas, and terrific ideas on health care. None of them get implemented. He has to raise 20,000 a week to have enough money to run. Who is he going to listen to . Us or those going up and down the house with money. They represent the health care industry, not us, you have to have a government that comes from you again. You have leadership in this country and you have to completely reform our government and at that point it would be like apples falling out of a tree. The officials will be listening and we would be all ears. I think we should do Plastic Surgery on these guys to theyre all ears, too. Shouldnt you get what you want . You paid for it. The rights, a little piece in the law, and it goes through. Thats the way it is played now. Governor clinton you wanted one more point. We have selections so people can make decisions about this. The Bipartisan Commission reviewed my plan and the bush plan and concluded that my plan would cover everybody, and his would leave 27 million behind by the year 2000. And that my plan would save 2. 2 trillion in public and private money. And the average family would save dlsh 200 a year under the plan that i offered without any erosion in the quality of health care. And you have to vote for someone with the plan. If they say he got elected to do this, thats what the election is about. Thank you, governor clinton. How has the National Debt personally faskted each of your lies, and if it hasnt how can you find a cure for the economic problems of the Common People if you have no experience in what is ailing them . It is for each of you. It caused me to disrupt my private life and my business. Thats how much i care about it you would agree that that is more fun than getting involved in politics. I lived the American Dream. I came from a modest background. All of the way across the spectrum, and the greatest riches of all, my wife and children. But i want all of the children, i want these young people up o here to start with nothing but an idea like i did and then to build a business. They have to have a strong basic economy. If you have debt it is like a ball and chain around you. I oh it to them, the future generations, and on a bernl basis to my children and grand chirp. I think the National Debt affects everything. It has. How has it affected you personally . Im sure it has. I love my grandchildren, i want to think they can afford an education. I think they is an important part are you suggesting that if someone has means that the National Debt wont affect them . I have personal problems with National Debt, but how has it affected you and if you have no experience in it, how can you help us if you dont know what were feeling . I think she means more the recession, the economic problems today that the country faces. Listen, you ought to be in the white house for a day and hear what i hear and see what i see and read the mail i read and touch the people that i touch from time to time. I was in the ame church, a black church just outside of washington dc. And i read in the bulletin about teenage pregnancies. I dont think it is fair to say. I dont think it is fair to say whatever it is, if you have not been hit by it personally. Everyone is affected by the debt. Because of the tremendous interest on that debt, everything is morics pensive. Everything comes out of your pocket and my pocket. I think in terms of the recession, of course you fell it when youre president of the United States. Thats why im trying to do something about it. Investing in better Education Systems. And i would love to clarify. Tell me how it affected you again. You know people that lost their jobs and their homes . Well, i have been governor of a small state for 12 years. Ill tell you how it affected me. Every Year Congress and the president i see people in my state, middle class people, their taxes have gone up, their services have gone down, the wealthy have gotten tax cuts. I have seen what as in the last four. When a factory closes i know who ran it. When the bzs to bankrupt, i know them. We have been meeting people like this, all over america, they lost their jobs, their livelihood what i want you to understand that the National Debt is not the only cause of that. It is because america did not invest in our people, because we have not grown, we had 12 years of trickle down economics. We had four years we produced no private sector jobs. Most people are working harder for less p monmoney than they w making ten years ago. This decision that youre about to make better be about what kind of economic theory you want. Not just people saying i want to go fix it, but what are we going to go go do. We need to bring the American People together again. Were a little more than halfway through the program. I dont want to forget the folks on the wings over here. I work in the financial field and im personally concerned about three major areas. One is the Security Administration where trust fund is projected to be insolvent by the year 2036, and the trust fund that we use now in the form of treasury funds, it backs up our private plans for retire resocial security projected to be bankrupted by 2026. And medicare is projected to be bankrupt as soon as 1997. I would like from each of you and the retirees, relative to these issues, not generalities, but also the issues. President bush, we start with you. We could learn from you the detail for the mention guarantee fund. The Security System it is certainly beyond that, at least we have time to work with it. But on all of these things a sound economy is the only way to get it going. Growth in the economy is going to add to the overall prosperity and wealth. I cant give you a specific answer on pension guarantee fund. All i know is we have full Government Credit to guarantee the pensions and that is very important. It is the full faith and credit of the United States in spite of our difficulties is pretty good. And i think that is the only answer, but the most immediate answer is to do what this lady is suggesting is get this deficit down, get on without adding to the woes is a fa financial reform legislation. And it is a big fight and i dont want to give my fresz ross at me another spot here, but i am fighting to get it through. You have strongwilled guys up there that argue with you. That is what the election is about and sound fiscal policy is the answer to all of the problems. Just on the broad issue here, when youre trying to solve a problem, you have the best plans, you have a raging debate about those plans. Then out of that debate with leadership comes consensus. Then, and if the plans are human being, like the old congress says. Youre passing laws, anyone that builds a successful business, they tell you. If they could just touch it with a screw driver, they fix it. They financed five years or less. If you have shortterm money, why did they do it. There is a trillion dollars, and there is 28 billion a year. When you pay for money, you realize it is quite a spread. It is temporary and there will be another tucking sound. You know and everybody is ducking it so im going to say it. Were not letting that surplus stay in the bank. Were not investing it like a pension fund. Were spending it to make the deficit look smaller to you than it really is. Now that puts you in jail in corporate america. But in government it is just kind of the way that things are. It comes at you not from you. They dont even pay interest, they just write a note for the interest. Do you want fix the problem or soundbite it. This is just one of a thousand problems. A growing, expanding job base to generate the funds to pay off america. We have a double hit. We should have everything perfect but we dont. It will make a growing expanding job base. I would love to be out of workers and have to import them. Mr. Perot, im sorry, i dont want to soundbyte you but were trying to be fair to everyone. Absolutely i apologize. Governor clinton . I think i remember the question. And let me say first of all, i want to answer your specific question. First of although we all agree there could be a growing economy. You have to decide who has the best economic plan. We all have ideas out there and mr. Bush has a record. So i dont want you to read my lips and i dont want you to read his, but i hope you will read our plans. Specifically, one, on medicare, it is not true that everyone knows how to fix it. There are different ideas. Im convinced that having studied health care for a year, hard, and having talked to hundreds and hundreds of people across america that you cannot roll the cost of medicare until you control private and Public Health care. You have to do that. We have to get those costs down. Number two with regard to security, there is a 70 billion a year. Six increases in the payroll tax, that means people with income tax pay a disproportionately high share. Thats why i want middle class relief. By the time the century turns we have to have our deficit under control. We have to work out of so that surplus is building up. Number three on the pension funds, i dont know as much about it but i would bring in the experts of the country. It is not just enough to have the denial or the guarantee. They are deregulated it. They are on private requirement plans. Thank you, i think we have a question here on international affairs, hopefully. We have come to a position in the new world order and i would like to know what they feel our position is and what the responsibilities are as a super power. We have come to that position since i became president 33 and 34 could be countries have gone democratic. No longer living under dictatorship. This is new world order to me meaning freak and democracy. I think were the only remaining super power to say involved. If we pull back and say we dont have to do our share or more than our share, i think you can just ask for what we will be involved in in the future. Nato kept the piece for many, many years and i want to see us stay fully staffed. We will continue to guarantee the peace in europe, but the fear of nuclear war is down. You hear about all of the bad stuff that happened on my watch, and i hope that people will realize there is something good for mankind. I hope they will think it is good that democracy and freedom are on the move. Were going to stay engaged working to improve things. It is so easy now to say cut out foreign aid. I think we industrial to have the statute of liberty. Were trying to help starving kids in somalia. Were taking the lead in humanitarian aide. Were doing this all around the world. I think i have a good plan to help fix the problems at home. But because of our leadership, because we didnt listen to the Nuclear Freeze group, mem that in the 1970s. President reagan said no, peace through trengt. It worked. And now theyre totally democratic. Jim baker, all of us, got this passed through cooperation. Youre for that, im sure, helping russia become democratic. So to me it means freedom and democracy, keep engaged, and were the United States and we have a responsibility to lead and to guarantee the security. If it had not been for us Saddam Hussein would be sitting on top of three fifths of the oil supply of the world and he would have Nuclear Weapons. Thank you, mr. Perot . It is Cost Effective to help russia succeed. It is pennies on the dollar. Russia is still very unstable. Still all of the Nuclear Weapons are not dismantled. Im concerned about the intercontinental weapons that could hit us. With all of this instability and breaking into the publics. So we need to say right on top of that and constructively help them move to democracy and capitalism. We have to have our money to do that. For 45 years we were preokay peaed with the red army. Now we need to worry about red ink in our country. We have to put our people back to work so we can do what we want. We spend 300 billion a year defending the world. If i can get you to defend me and i can spend all of my money building industry thats a home run for me. Coming out of World War Two it made sense. Now the other super powers need to do their part. You cant be a super power unless youre an economic super power. If youre not an economic super power, we used to be and we will no longer be a force for good throughout the world if nothing else gets you excited maybe that will. The president mentioned Saddam Hussein. You have had words about the president and Saddam Hussein, would you care to comment . I would rather answer a question first. The question you asked is important. The end of the cold war brings an Incredible Opportunity for change. Winds of freedom blowing around the world. Russia demilitarizing. And it requires us to maintain some continuity. A commitment to certain principals. I could say there are three things that we have to maintain. I think the defense needs to be with fewer people, but with greater mobility, and the continuing proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Number two, if you dont rebuilt the economic strength of this country at home we wont be a super power. We cant have any more instapss like what happened when bush went to japan and the japanese Prime Minister said he felt p sympathy for our country. We wanted to rebuild the American Economy and we need to be a force for freedom and democracy and use our unique position to support freedom in haiti on in china, or in any other place. Where the seeds of free are sprouting. We need to nourish is. That is what i would do as president. Follow those three commitments into the future. We have a question up there. We talked a lot tonight about creating jobs. But we have an awful lot of High School Graduates who dont know how to read a ruler. Who cannot fill out an application for a job. How can we create high paying jobs with the Education System that we have and what would you do to change it . Thank you. Who would like to begin . The education, president . Sure, i would be delighted to. Because you cant do it the old wade. You cant do it with the School Bureaucracy controlling everything nap is why we have a new program. And by passing congress, and 1700 communities called america 2000. It says to the communities reinvent the schools, not just the bricks and mortar, but the curriculum and everything else. Think anew. We have a concept called the new america cork ration where were doing exactly that. I believe we have to get the power in the happeneds of the teachers, not the teachers union. And so our america 2000 program says this. It says lets give parents the choice of a public, private, or religious school. And it works. It works in milwaukee. And the schools not chose reason improved. Competition does that. We have to innovate through program, but she is absolutely right. The programs that we tried where you control everything and mandate it from washington dont work. The gorans, i believe governor clinton was in on this, but i dont want to invoke him. He says please get the congress to stop passing so many mandates telling us how to control things. We know better how to do it. This is what the program is all about. If we dont change the education, we wont be able to compete. Governor clinton. I spent more time in my life on this issue more than anything else. 70 of my states money goes to schools. They named two states showing real strides forward in the 80s. I care a lot about this. But let me start with what you said, ai agree with some of what you said, but its nowhere near the worth. If what you learn depends on what you can learn, and none of us can promise any of you that what you do for a living is safe for now on. No one can promise that. What should we do . You said you wanted specifics. Under my program we would provide matching funds for states to teach everybody with a job to read and everybody can get a high school diploma, in politic places, on the job. We will provide apprenticeships for people. They can pay it back as a percentage of their income or with a couple years of service to our nation. We will fully fund the headstart program, and five an Aggressive Program of school reform. More choices in the Public Schools or the charter schools. I dont think we should spend tax money on private schools but i favor Public School choice and radical decentralization and more power to better trained teachers with changing schools. Those things would revolutionize education. The question is what will it cost . In six years, i budget all thof in my cost. It would cost 8 billion. The president s Student Loan Program costs four. We dont have an automatic recovery system. The nest cost is 8 billion six years from now and a trillion plus budget. Not very much. The other stuff, all of the other stuff cost much less than that. Headstart would be about 5 billion more. Its all covered in my budget from the plans that i have laid out from raising taxes, and theyre asking them to pay the same tax on the same income. From 140 billion in cuts. Yes, i have scars to show from being around education reform. The first word you need to see in every city and state is Public Schools exist for the benefit of the children. Any time you spend 199 billion a year someone is getting it, the children are lost in the process. That is step one. In 1960 when our schools were the envy of the world we were spending 16 billion. Now we spend more and were at the bottom of the industry iiald world. It is a government not serving you. It should be local. The more local the better. An interesting phenomenon. Small towns have good schools, big cities have terrible schools. You get into a big city and it is political patronage. You get a job, more than the teachers make, and with luck they clean the cafeterias once a week. Those schools belong to you and they put up with that. And these folks are just dividing up 199. If we could wish for one thing it would be a strong faek unit in every home. The white house is a bully pull pet and i think we ought to pound on the table every day. There is nothing that the government will never more than a loved family unit. Individualism is very important. Big factories, everyone told me they were Cost Effective, theyre cost ineffective. 5,000 students, and we have 11 more boys that can run like the devil and they might win district. That has nothing to do with it. Half of the school day was nonacademic pursuits. This gives the flavor, a boy in houston kept a chicken in a math tub. The chicken lost his feathers, thats the only reason we got him back. Neighborhood schools, it is terrible to bus tiny little children across down and particularly terrible to take poor tiny little children and wait until the first grade and bus them across town where they know their numbers, their letters, and i will close on this. We have to have world class teachers, world class books. If you were part of how school books were selected, you would not want to go back the second day. I dont have time for the stories. No, you dont. We cant from the industries of tomorrow unless we have the industries of workforce. The cheapest money you will ever spend. First contact should be the mother when she is pregnant. That child needs to be loved and hugged. They learn to think well of themselves in the first 18 months and in the first few years they learn how to learn or dont area how to learn and if they dont they wind up in prison and it costs more to keep them in prison than it does to send them to harvard. I rest my case. I just have a word of clarification because of something governor clinton said. My School Choice program, the g. I. Bill for kids does not take public money to give it to private schools. It does what the gi bill itself did when i came out of world war ii. It gives it to families or individuals to choose a school they want. Those schools that werent chosen find they then compete and do better. So i think it is worth a shot. We have a Pilot Program that ought to be tried. School choice. B public, private, or religious. 46 of the teachers in chicago send their kids to private school. Now i think we ought to try to help families and see if it will do what i think, making all schools better. Very briefly. Involving the parents in preschool education of their kids, even if theyre poor, it is one of the most successful thing west have ever done. We do not spend a higher percentage on Public Education than every other country. If you look at Public Education we have more racial diversity and poverty, it makes more of a difference. There are great Public Schools where there is Public School choice. And i will just mention one, the Academic Center in chicago. We have very little time left and it occurred to me that we have talked all of this time and there has not been one question about some of the racial tensions and ethnic tensions in america. Is there anyone in this audience that would like to pose a question to the candidates on this . Yes . What i would like to know, and this is for any of the three of you, aside from the recent accomplishments of the party, and with standing current appointments and elections, when do you estimate your party will elect an afroamerican and female ticket to the United States . Why dont you answer that first, governor clinton . I dont have any idea, but i hope it will happen in my lifetime. I do, too. I think this country is electing more africanamericans, latinos, asian americans, representing district thats are not necessarily a majority of their race. American people are beginning to vote across racial lines and i hope it will happen more and more. More and more women are being elected. Look at all of the women Senate Candidates that we have here. According to my mother, wife, and daughter the world would be better if women were running it. I think there is specific experiences, judgments, and backgrounds and understands that women bring to the process. This lady said here how have you been affected by the economy. Women know what it is like to be paid an unequal amount for unequal work. They know what it is like to not have Flexible Working hours, family leave, or child care. I think it would be great and i think it will happen in my lifetime. Im sorry we have just a little time left. Lets try to get responses from each of them. If barbara were running this year she would be elected, but its too late. You dont want us to mention appointees, but when you see the quality of people in our administration, Collin Powell you werent impressed . Wouldnt that suggest to the American People then here is a quality person if he decided that he could automatically get the nomination of either party. Impressed with that, but when do you think . I think you will see more minority and women candidates coming forward in is supposed to be the year of the women. I have a forecast, unless he just wont do it, Collin Powell will be on someones ticket four years from now, right . Right . Four years. How about a woman . General waller might be a concern. Why do you keep picking military people . These are people that i just happen to know and have a high regard for. Im sure there are hundreds of others. Dr. Lou sullivan. What about a woman . My candidate is back there. Okay, i can think of many. Many . Absolutely. When . How about sandra day ocon nor. Okay, i will yield the floor. Thank you, i want to apologize to our audience because there was 209 people and there was 209 questions and we only got to a fraction of them. Im sorry to those that didnt get to ask your questions, but we must move to the conclusion of the program. Its time now for the twominute closing statements and president bush will go first . May i ask for an exception, i think we oh Carol Simpson a round of applause for her to stand between these three characters. I feel strongly about it but i dont want it to come out of my time. Let me just say to the American People in twoandahalf weeks were going to choose who will snit this oval office. Who will be the leader of the free world. Who will get the deficit down. One is to raise taxes. One is to reduce spending, controlling that mandatory spending, another is to invest i differ with the two here. Im just not going to do that. Do i believe that we need to control mandatory spending. I think we need to invest and save more. I believe that we need to educate better and retrain better. I believe that we need to export more. I will keep working for export agreements, and i believe that we must strengthen the family. We have to strengthen the family. Let me pose this question to america. If in the next five minutes a Television Announcer came on and said there is a Major International crisis. A major threat to the world, or in this country. A major threat, my question is who, if you were appointed to name one of the three of us, who would you choose . Who has the perseverance, the character, the integrity, the maturity to get the job done. I hope that im that person, thank you very, very much. Thank you, mr. President. Now a closing statement from mr. Perot. If the American People want to do it and not talk about it then they ought to, you know, im one person they ought to consider. If they want to keep slow dancing and talk about it and not do it im not your man. Im results oriented. I built my businesses. Getting things done in three months that my competitors took 18 months to do. Congress is all good people, theyre all patriots, but you to link arms with them. We have them all day every day but we get the job done. I have to close with one thing. Im passionate about education for disadvantaged little children. Let me tell you about a program where children who dont have a chance go to this program when theyre three. Now were going back to when the mother is pregnant. But starting when theyre three and going to school until theyre nine and then going into the Public School in the fourth gray, 09 are on the honor role. Those children go to college and live the American Dream. I beg the American People that when they think about reforms education, take this piece of society that doesnt have a chance. Take these pieces of clay that can be molded, and give them love and forth and team them that theyre unique and precious, and you will see the nation bloom. And we will have so so many people who are qualified for the top job that it will be terrific. Finally if you cant pay the bills youre dead in the water. We have to put our nation back to work. If you dont want to do that, im not your man. When you think about me, i didnt create this mess. I have been paying taxes just like you. And lord knows i paid my share. Over a billion dollars in taxes. For a guy that started out with everybody he owned in the trunk of his car. Ly see you tomorrow night on nbc 10 30 to 11 00 eastern. Finally last but most least, governor clinton. Thank you, carol, thank you ladies and gentlemen. Since i suggested this format i hope it has been good for all of you. I tried to be faithful to your requests that we answer the questions specifically and pointedly. I respect you for being here and for the impact and the positive experience. These problems are not easy. Theyre not going to be solved overnight. But i want you to think about two or three things. The people of my state let me be their governor for 12 years because i made commitments to more jobs and bet ere schools. Our schools are better, our children get off to a better star from preschool programs, and we have one of the most aggressive Adult Education programs in the country. We talked about that. This year my state ranks first in the country in job growth. Fourth in manufacturing, fourth in income growth, fourth in the decline of poverty. Im proud of that because i can work with people. Republicans and democrats. Thats why we had 24 retired generals and admirals, business people, support this campaign. You have to decide if you want to change or not. We do not need four more years of an economic theory that doesnt work. We had 12 years of trickle down economics. It is time to put the American People first to invest and grow this economy. Im the only person here that ever balanced a government budget. I presented 12 of them and cut spending repeatedly. You cannot get there by balancing the budget. You have to grow the economy by putting people first. I got into this race because i did not want my child to grow up to be the first generation. Question do better than that. I want to make america as great as it can be and i ask for your help in doing it. Thank you, governor clinton. Ladies and gentlemen, this cko concludes the debate sponsored by the Bipartisan Commission on president ial debates. I thank our 209 uncommitted voters that may leave feeling committed, and hopefully they will go to the polls on november 3rd and vote. We invite you to join us on the third and final president ial debate next monday on october 19th from the campus of Michigan State university. Im Carol Simpson, good night. Youre watching American History tv. Every weekend explore our nations past. Cspan 3 creates by americans Cable Television companies and brought to you today by your television provider