Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Contenders Eugene V. Debs 20240712

Hardy. Tonight, we are in tara hot in the museum. Let me introduce you to one of our guests with us throughout the program tonight. Earnest free bird is a debs biographer. Its been 85 years since debs died. Why would we care about him . He was one of the most important labor leaders and in a crucial time of conflict between labor and capital. He was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time when it was a viable and growing part of the american political culture. Is he interesting as a snapshot in time . Where does he have a Lasting Legacy . Like many Third Party Candidates he and his fellow socialist managed to move the conversation and import directions that have affected the development of american democracy ever since. In that regard, he is of his time, but also having a long impact. Well have time to delve into some of the elections more deeply later on. Of the five bids he made for the white house, are any particularly significant . Two for different reasons. The 1912 bid represents a High Water Mark of socialism, where he got about 6 of the vote. The different election is 1920, where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got 1 million votes as well while running in prison. We will learn more about both of those and his other bids for the white house as our 90minute program the contenders, our look at people who made an attempt at the white house and failed, but had an effect on political and American History. We are live tonight from the debs house and museum here in terre haute, indiana, its on the campus of Indiana State University. Eugene debs lived in this house with his wife kate, and she lived here for years after he died. We will show you more of the house as we continue here. The top floor of the house is an interesting miracle. The mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the years of debss public life. Throughout the program, we will show you aspects of that artwork to help illustrate eugene b. Debss story. Let me introduce you to our second guest on the program. Shes joining us from the second floor of what was debss bedroom. It is now a museum room with a lot of artifacts and Lisa Phillips is a history professor at Indiana State University, and a specialist in labor history. Thank you for being with us. Your thoughts on debss significance to the american story . I think his significance has to be with his labor activity, and in the socialist party as well. He has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed. Some of them we still enjoy. And he certainly can tell us a lot about the time period through his running for president and his labor activities as well. Lisa phillips will be showing us some of the artifacts from time to time at the house. Shes also part of the Debs Foundation. Tell me about the work of the Debs Foundation, and why you are involved. The Debs Foundation seeks to keep the debs legacy alive. It hopes to promote not only the museum, but the policies that debs promoted, which is that social justice and equality and the rights of workers generally, so it continues to try to live through the spirit of his mission. As we turn to your expertise here, can you tell me a little bit about how this house was financed and functions, who pays forward, whose carat is under . Its paid for by the Debs Foundation, and its cared for by dr. Charles king and karen brown. Both of them are here in terre haute, and they run the museum on a daily basis. In about ten minutes or so, as we always do with these contenders, we will open up the phone lines and involve you. We are interested to hear your questions and comments about eugene be debs at the turn of the 20th century and the period in American History he represents. Let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success at what he did. Many people remember him mostly as a dynamic speaker. This is an era of wonderful stump speakers who could fill two or three hours with the speech. Debs, many said was the best in that genre. In fact, he was so good he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience. And thats how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases. He was just a very charismatic guy with the ability. As he became more comfortable over the years, he developed a more impromptu style that really made a tremendous impact on his audience. Over your shoulders is debss library, and my understanding is that debs dropped out of school at age 14, and im curious about his Extensive Library and how he educated himself. He was very much self taught. He worked very hard at that. He began working in the Railroad Union and was very interested in the literature there. He worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town, always wanting to get more education, but having to rely on his own. Lisa, how did terre haute shape eugene debs . In many ways, mostly through his upbringing here when he was a younger man, and he always harkened back to terre haute as a youth, and he thought about and invoked all the time in terms of the harmonious relationships he said developed in old terre haute between everybody who could aspire to do something good in their lives, whether you are a business owner, a worker, but everybody had the chance. He always said in the old tara hosts you have a chance to do something. When you walk around the house, you see that he was interested from an early age. He made a bid for clerk in this town and also made a successful bid for the Indiana Legislature on the democratic ticket. His early routes then were in the two party system. Can you talk about that . I can say a little bit. He ran on the Democratic Party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether they be Business Owners, workers, and he believed in the party system in that regard. It wasnt until later in the 18 nineties that he felt like the party system was not working for the best interest of all people. When he sought the white house, what was his contention . Did he ever really think that he could win . He said very clearly that he never intended of winning. Lincoln stevens interviewed him in 1908 and asked what it would be like, and he said if the party ever gets close to winning, id be the last person who would want the job. He thought of himself more as an evangelist for the cause. He believed in democracy, but i think he was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers and develop class consciousness to deliver his message very powerfully every four years. Give us a snapshot of the america that he was dissatisfied with. There is an enormous concentration of capital. That was the big struggle at the time. Many people are worried about the labor problem. Many felt in the face of the rapid industrialization that their skills were less valuable, that their wages were being hit by the International Market with declining wages and a more difficult work environment. And there was an enormous sense that labor was extremely unhappy. For debs, he turned it around and said the problem is not labor, it is capital. The problem is not that workers are unhappy and going on strike. The root problem is these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. Socialism was on the rise in europe. How was what these socialists and debs were going for different from that . They consider themselves to be internationalists, that essentially socialism needed to be a worldwide movement, and they expected it would be. They felt they were distinctive challenges in america in order to convince workers to do that. There is a stronger sense of working class in europe. So one of these struggles for debs throughout his career was trying to convince workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans, not on the basis of their religious affiliation, but to think of themselves as members of a working class. How successful was what he and his fellow speakers in convincing the public . How much grounded they make . It depends on how you measure it. If you measure it by debss success, the High Water Mark was 1912 when he got 1 million votes. No Electoral College votes though. But there is a much broader socialist movement at a local level. There were a lot of socialist mayors, city officials of various kinds, a very vibrant International Socialist society for College Students started by zach london. So a lot of College Campus fervent about socialism. Some of our best journalism from that time is from socialist presses. So socialism was much bigger and the count of the votes. Today in congress, United States senator Bernie Sanders of vermont is a socialist. We spoke about debss legacy. Lets listen to what he had to say. A lot of the ideas that he advocated talk about when people get hole, there should be social insurance for them, thats what we call Social Security today, basically in 2011 those same people that hated debs when he was alive are now on Social Security. The battle continues today. But i think its fair to say that many of the huge advances made during the thirties under president roosevelt, the Great Society under lyndon johnson, and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention. He was the first person to bring it to the attention of millions of workers. Lisa phillips, let me ask you to add your perspective to the america that he saw was dissatisfied with. I dont think he saw himself as antiamerican at all. I think he thought that he was advocating through the labor Union Activity for a kind of america that he hearkened back to. In his early days, he wasnt even anti capitalist at all. We worked with the railroad companies. But it wasnt until the advent of corporate capitalism or big business that he really felt that there had to be a movement against something, the for profit motive that continued to bring workers wages down. Do you have something to add . I agree with lisa. One of the things that made debs so powerful was his ability to cast socialism as an american movement. His argument was that this was a revolutionary country in the first place. In his lifetime, he experienced the civil war as a revolution, so some of his greatest idols were abolitionists. His argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow chattel slavery, and the next step was to overthrow wage slavery. Who were his workers . Did he include women in his view . Did he include people other than whites . Did he include immigrants . What was his definition . As one of the First Industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class, which he believed everyone who was a worker, who earned wages which were two thirds of americans by 1890, was a part of, whether they be an immigrant, whether they be black, whether they be women. So we certainly saw them as all members of a working class in some way shape or form. Still to this day there are debates over whether he did enough on behalf of women and african americans, and he had some trouble seeing immigrants, especially chinese and italians, who came over temporarily and worked for very low wages and then brought them back to their home countries as part of the same american working class that was trying to fight for higher wages. We had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling this. But certainly, his as an Industrial Movement was one that recognized the rights of all workers, regardless of their backgrounds. I understand youve got one of the artifacts. Its a copy of the jungle, by Upton Sinclair. Whats the significance . Its a huge significance. Upton sinclair wrote the jungle and published in 1905. He was a member of the socialist party himself. He highlighted in at the horrible conditions that meatpackers worked in in chicago. The conditions that riled up the country where the quality of the meat that was coming out of the plants. He was the one who wrote about the rats and peoples fingers getting caught in the process to meet and how horrible that was. He and debs were supporters of one another, and like debs, Upton Sinclair could demonstrate the problems of the growth in big business. And it was up in st. Claires work that led to the creation of the food and meat industries, the precursors to the fda. That is very much of the same mindset in terms of negative consequences of big business. The book actually ends with a scene where he wanders into a socialist meeting and heres a character that is clearly supposed to be eugene debs making a speech. For Upton Sinclair that was not food and drug regulation, necessarily, but socialism, was the bigger answer. So debss right in the book. Can you tell the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept of thinking of socialism at that time . He headed the American Railway union, which had mounted a successful strike against the Great Northern railroad company, based in minneapolis, in 1893. The ar you as a result of that strike named thousands of members. And many of those members were part of the polman car company in 1904. They asked the a. R. U. For support when they decided to walk out against george polman, who had dropped their wages as a result of the 1893 depression by 18 . Once the wages were dropped, they wanted to ask, get an asked the a. R. U. Headed by debs at that point for support. And debs was reluctant at first. He thought it was too risky. But the workers had a lot of support, not only within the town of parliament, outside of chicago, but also had a lot of support from Railway Workers all the way from there to st. Louis. We see some of the first sympathetic strikes along the railway lines. And it became national in scope. And as a result of, that president grew over cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the power of the a. R. U. And stop the transport of goods, and especially the u. S. Mail, along the railways throughout that corridor. Grover cleveland got involved and sent u. S. Troops to open up the Railway Depots that have been shut down as a result of the strike that have been called by the a. R. U. And then debs was ultimately, didnt, call these striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. He served three months in prison as a result of being convicted of being in contempt of court. And so then, it was then that he was imprisoned after the pullman strike that he was introduced to socialist literature and became a socialist party member and advocate. I read a description that he left prison a changed man. Do you know more about that . I think he did come to the realization. He felt that when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike, when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as it could be that the two parties were both working against labor, and that there needed to be an alternative. He didnt go right away to socialism. He was involved in the populist party, and very actively, and then when that failed, the socialist party emerged after that. We will begin bringing in your telephone calls. Weve got the phone number that we will put on the screen. We will mix calls in throughout the 90 minutes here. As we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of where the house is in terre haute and on the campus of Indiana State University. So we will show you that on google maps as we listen to the first caller from north carolina. Hi, steve. Please compare debs with William Jennings bryant, because it seems like they are appealing or trying to appeal to similar constituents. Thank you very much. The election of 1912. William Jennings Brian was an earlier profile. How do they compare . Debs was initially an admirer and i think that they shared some concerns about reform. The crucial difference was debs was really a revolutionary. He was not only interested in reform. Reform was necessary. But he felt something much greater was needed, that there needed to be an end to capitalism and Public Ownership as a means of production. That was a position that clearly distinguished him from brians campaign. William mckinley, William Jennings brian, and deb, and he got 20 of the popular vote that year. Do you know what his earlier views were as a candidate and how they view changed . The real challenge for dads was to get socialists coming from different positions. One of the strongest hotbeds of socialism was oklahoma. People who had been populists started to develop these socialist camp meetings where they would gather together to hear socialist speeches, and debs was a real hero there. But the socialist also needed to speak to trade unionists in chicago and milwaukee, radical bohemians in San Francisco and greenwich village, to jewish government workers on the lower east side. So the real challenge for debs and for the party was to find a way to knit together people who all agreed on some level that capitalism needed to change, but were coming at it from different positions. So it took a while to build the apparatus. Another election in 1908 involved Jennings Brian and it looked like debs was beginning to understand early marketing because he had Campaign Tactics like the red train special and the red special van. What can you tell us . 19 oh it was a critical year, because of the ascendance of the popularity of socialism and the strength of labor unions and other labor unions in this period. So his message, i think, as you were just saying, appealed to increasingly more people from diverse backgrounds. The red special would have been a good unifying kind of symbol to used to unite what were very disparate groups of people either working on farms or in urban areas. To his supporters, it meant a challenge to big business, a challenge to capitalism. They would have called it big business or monopolies at the time. It was a good way to unify people with just the use of the red special. The next call is from randy in california. Welcome. I just wanted to give background. My grandfather voted for eugene v. Debs in the election. As i went through the primary grades of school, we never heard of eugene v. Debs. It seems like its really lacking in our education system, labor history. People talk about Social Security, social insurance, and even older people are surprised that people died for those. They were fought for and people were literally killed and beaten and jailed for the right to unemployment insurance, and eight hour workday. With the neofascist running the Republican Party trying to push it further to the right, it seems like eugene v. Debs is not only important historically, but we should reestablish the message now more than ever, because we are at a critical part of history where we if we are not careful, we could creep towards fascism. Randi, before we go, did you talk about tabs with your grandfather . Yes i did. Which election did he vote in . I believe it was the 1916 election. That would be 1920. 1916 was the year he sat out. Thank, you randy. First of all, why did he sit out in 1916 . He was an ill health. I think he only ran in 1920 because of the unusual circumstances. He feels that its time to pass on the baton of the movement. He did run for congress in indiana in 1916, but he didnt feel up to the red special. When he was on the red special train, he was giving 15 speeches a day. And he would come back exhausted to terre haute and collapse and one of the bedrooms upstairs and spend weeks trying to recover. In 1916, he decided to set out. Lisa phillips, those comments were probably music to your ears about the lack of teaching of labor history in schools. I wonder what your thinking is about the teaching of labor history to americas students today . Of course i would say that it should be taught more than it is. I think there is so much we could learn about working people. All of us who work every day and try to make ends meet and to value them by teaching their history. Its very important. It gives us a different perspective on what it means to fight for some of those rights that the columnist was mentioning. Not taking it for granted and realizing it can be usually taken away and fought for again. We need to teach those struggles and how difficult it was so we dont take for granted the benefits that we have received as a result of them. The early part of the 20th century, the middle class in the United States . Large part of corporate capitalism, it actually generated a larger middle class. The people he represented, what they have been part of that middle class or was at the working class . There were a large number of middle class supporters, people who went to debs meetings expected him to be working class people, roughly surprised to find that they were actually, many of them, most important writers and political thinkers that we could think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party or very sympathetic to their agenda so he considered it as a working Class Movement but had a strong leadership component. In the period of 1900 to mid 1915 or so, would it have been dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the United States. Where the authorities watching you in any way . No. It was not, there were particular incidents, to be involved as a socialist in particular strikes are environments it was a problem. There was some conflict over the rights of seoul thought speakers. The socialist were big believers and bringing their message to the street. Sometimes there were clashes with the police. In terms of that persecution of socialists there were very much part of the political conversation. When did that change . When did the public at large could become more suspicious about intentions . When you started to get a lot of votes, it started the conversation in 1908 and 1912. Teddy roosevelt was one of our most undesirable citizens. There was a sense that the forces of law really needed to push back against socialism rhetorically, it was a really until world war one that the gloves really came off and socialism was sort of physically illegally assaulted. Next is a caller from manhattan. Hello. Living the series. Thank you for the series. Its fascinating history. Thank you. Off that, couple of things that strikes me and hopefully i can get a comment. When is the grievances against growing capitalism pm as it is thought of then and now. As you know, we had this protest occupying wall street. Some of the same grievances as i understand them. The idea of the organization. The mechanics of the organization of the movement i dont know if youre aware of this but occupy wall street is receiving a lot of criticism because theyre making a deliberate attempt not to have a specific platform or agenda or a list of grievances that you could talk about the mechanics of oregon is organizing a movement. Who might have inspired him . Thank you for the series. Thank you. Let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism . His grievances against capitalism was a monopoly, corporate capitalism that he had the most trouble with. That is why he felt that an overthrow of corporate capitalism was in order. His grievances against them was you cumulation of wealth in the hands of the pew, and the controlling what he argued early on was that combinations of corporations of Business Owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy. Thats what he was clearly against. What he advocated were labor unions a similar combinations of workers who could then Work Together to break the monopoly that corporate entities have been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy at the time. In that way, people argue that our time period is very similar to his time period, the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. The mechanics that he used to organize them. I think its an interesting question. It isnt the case that socialist, one of the things that made debs socialism make work in a way that had not worked before was their talent for organizing. Their willingness to attend a lot of meetings. To develop a separate independent press. They were modern about the big influence of money on these papers. On the media. Very much believed that there was no way that people were going to hear the worker side of the story, or their side of the story if they did not create their own alternative, so that was crucial. Dubs was the person who blew into town and rallied the troops. Socialism really relied on the grassroots organizing process and a lot of attempts to win at the local level. The presidency was out of reach but it was not impossible to get on the council. We have to think about the time period. This was even before radio began. And so politics in those days meant what in our lives . Was it an activity to fill the evenings and ways that we dont really appreciate today . This was a period of enormous party loyalty. Also social, is what im asking. People would gather an evening and listen to speeches. I would say now we are busy with our lives. That sort of thing. I think that there were many more newspaper sources and they were much more barbed and political. Unions had their own press. There was a much more complicated mix available to people in print. While we are talking about media, would you talk about a publication for which cohen debs wrote, the appeal to reason . Sure. My ear piece came out. Its sitting right here next to me. This is the appeal to reason, right here. It was started in 1895 is a populist party newspaper. It became the newspaper of the socialist party in 1901, and so it is one of those publications many newspapers which would have it existed in that time period, where people would read and find out as much information as they could. It was sinclair, whose book we showed earlier who was four serialized in the appeal to reason. The first time it was published was in the appeal to reason. Other people wrote and. It debs wrote in it. Jack lyndon wrote in it. Many people wouldve written after 1901, the socialist parties newspaper. I would like to very briefly read to you from a statement that debs made. He sent the election by telegraph. The results of the 1912 election statement. He wrote, from the return it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote. Now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. We are the only ones who came out with colors flying. Debs wrote, the socialist party from no one is the party of the people, very young giant will make history in the next few years. Soon after, the democrats will empower. They will demonstrate their utter impotency and helplessness, and thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in discussed. That was a bad prediction. The socialist party actually started to climb right after that election. At least in terms of membership and never recovered that beat and one of the main reasons was there was an administration which is did the opposite it brought in a slate of reforms. Our controls four eight hour day for railroad workers. Some regulation of the banking system. Some for unions to organize. Steps, small steps toward what the socialists wanted. But certainly enough to win a lot of voters. Lets take our next telephone call. Portland, new york. As a sharon on the line. Go ahead, please. I want to thank cspan for this wonderful series. I am enjoying it so much. Im wondering if your guests might comment in his early life. His formative years and what his parents did for a living . Thank you very much. Thank you. Which you like to take that one . Im not exactly sure i could remember what debs father did for a living. I know he was a great idealist. Debs himself, his middle name is after victor hugo, and idealism of the french novelist was a big part of debs upbringing. Family french extraction . I was remembering that debs father was a port kind of manufacturing plant. He was ill. He could not do that work. There were instances where he was depressed as a worker. They had two small children. She was pregnant with eugene and they opened a small grow showing and the front of their house and he went on to become a successful small grocer. His dad was a grocer. When of debs first job was an accountant for the home and grocery line and he had experience with the Family Business and thats what enabled him to do that work, so that was what his Family Income came from having been a small involved in Small Businesses. Why did you have to drop out of school at age 14 . As i recall i think it was not uncommon for people to finish high school. He wanted to get a job on the railroads. Railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become a part of, and so his very first job was as a paint scraper for the local railroad that was running through terror holt and was coming through in the zone by trumps heroes first and then by william mckean. He was a paint scraper first. It was an exciting shop for him in an era where people did not commonly finish high school. His personal life can you tell us about his marriage . That was always a source of controversy in the movement. He was deeply loyal to kate debs. It was clear in that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congressman and not as a socialist. She is often spoke in favor of socialism publicly but not enthusiastically. They decided that she was probably would have been happier if he had not pursued that life, which also kept him on the road most of the time. Dibs trying to recover before he handed out on another campaign. She was left keeping the home fires burning here in this lovely house. So kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are right now in indiana. With down and out real road workers knocking at the door hoping they could see their hero. But they have any children . No. You said he traveled extensively. She chose never to do that. We dont know if she was invited to come along. Hard to know what was going on. Lets take our next telephone call from indiana. This is tom. Hi, tom. Here we are in your home town. Have youve been to the debs house . I have not. I work two blocks away from their, so i have no excuse for that. Thank you for a fantastic serious. I would just like to make a quick comment, because there are so many people across america who would love to be calling. I just i want to say this. When the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers, and i want to make one point i lived in colorado. I called in the eye mines of colorado. I used to drive to interstate 25 and i would pass a town called ledlow. I would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the little massacre, and i am not sure when it happened. Im sure debs was alive at the time. But i would just hang up now and please, when you moguls of america, we need jobs and we need them now. I please, could you tell us a little bit about the little massacre in colorado . A little massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blames on the striking or protesting workers at the time. Whether they were minors or whether they were protesting for their rights. What happened in ledlow is would happen in a market and other riotous incidents. There would be federal troops, authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers, and many of them would be killed, so i cannot remember how many people died in the ledlow massacre biden in the homestead strike, several people would be killed and then the labor unions or the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot for protesting. That caused a lot of its part of the reason it was a precursor for the air of the nights of labor who went by the wayside because they were blamed for the hay market. The ledlow massacre, similarly was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed that the strikers themselves were blamed. Unfortunately for that. So i think to get to the colors original point, depths actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. He had been friends with people like william a keen who owned part of the railroad that came through terror whoa he supported when they had best interest of parenthood in mind. It was when they brought in heavy capitalists, and when they started trying to make relationships with people out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller Business Owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. So it wasnt Small Business that he was originally against. It was the for profit motive that drove those Small Business meant become business moguls and then create conditions that caused the ledlow massacre and the hay market ryan among workers that didnt have any other choice but to strike. Were there socialists all across the United States, or was it a regional phenomenon . No, it was all across the United States. Here in the midwest, and also out west, especially with the western federation minors, they were big supporters of the socialist party. Bill hayward was a Founding Member of it. Mostly out west, oklahoma, the midwest, the east and places like new york, those were the strongholds of the socialist party. The remarkable thing about socialist was they drew support from rural americans on farms who are being affected negatively by capitalism, from urban areas like chicago in new york, from western coal miners, so they drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively affected by the rise of this corporate capitalism. Rather than moving toward a more benevolent employment, i dont think debs believed that was possible at this point. Rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to smallscale capitalism, socialist were interested in arguing that business will get bigger and bigger, and the important thing is for it to be run by the people instead of individuals for private gain. So this was a much more radical proposition as a way to solve this problem. Many people were engaged with trying to figure out how to sault and soften the hard edges of the industrial revolution. Andrew carney gee suggested that there needed to be more benevolent moguls. Debs said thats not the problem, that we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. We are profiling eugene v. Debs at his home in terre haute, indiana. Our series the contender looks at 14 men who strived for the presidency but lost, but change American History. We have 90 minutes to learn more about this period of time. He ran five times between 1900 and 1920. Our next telephone call is from virginia, outside washington. This is john. , hi susan. A Wonderful Program and thank you for cspan. I was intrigued by your guests comment, Teddy Roosevelt said eugene v. Debs was the most dangerous man in america or something to that effect. Teddy roosevelt himself is known as a trust posture and for breaking up standard oil and the lake. I wonder if your guest can comment on that. A very good question. Roosevelt said we need to take what he called the same part of the Deposition Program and adopt. It debs with his interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democratically, that this was a crazy idea that would undermine one of the pillars of american democracy, private property and free enterprise. On the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers, as well as the middle class, about the problems of big business. So roosevelt argued that it was important to take the good ideas, the things that we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways, that weve been talking about, and to adopt those. So these became an important part of the Progressive Party platform, and were also a part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. He said debs wants to tear down the spirit of hate by stirring up class envy, workers against their masters in a sense. What he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way, without socialism. Lisa phillips, do you have more . I might be remembering this wrong, but i dont think Teddy Roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the a. R. U. With pullman, so that seemed dangerous to president s who were in charge of making sure the country ran smoothly. Anytime you saw a case where there was a strike fomented by a National Labor union that disrupted the distribution of goods and something as crucial as the mail, then that also would have put Teddy Roosevelt and eugene debs on opposite sides of the divide. Another topic altogether to understand socialist thinking and United States in the early 20th century. What about the intersection between social thinking and religion . A very large number of socialists war religious, especially in the south and in oklahoma, texas. There was a strong party there. And there was a Strong Movement of what was called the social gospel or social christiana tea. Many were supporters of jabs. He was a believer in the most tenuous sense. He believed churches to be the enemy, part of the apparatus for press workers. He claimed never to go into a church. But many christians felt that he, in his humanitarian compassion for workers, really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career who said that he is the most christlike person i know, his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christiana tv. So this was an important distinction between the debsian socialist movement and the communism that comes after that. Not everyone in the socialist movement was a believer by any means, but it was something where that was an important part of the mix. If you signed your name to a card that says i am a member of the socialist party in this period, what does that mean your beliefs or . That the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and the owning class. This was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class, as a necessary next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, a necessary next step to protect the principles of the american revolution, the dignity of individuals. So they saw themselves as patriots. That harkens back to he spoke of lincoln and also have some of the founding fathers. So he really saw himself as an extension of the early routes of American History. The important movers and shaker is in American History are radicals. History is driven forward by people, pointing back to jesus, to socrates, to thomas jefferson, to john brown when dole phillips. History moves forward by people with ideas that seem deeply unpopular in retrospect are necessary for more evolution. We have a hush or from blooming ton. Hello, chris. Thanks for having the conversation. Great to see this on television. I was wondering if your guests could comment on debss relationship with the Industrial Workers of the world and the general strike. Lisa phillips, the iw. W. Debs was a Founding Member of the iww. And it was clearly an Industrial Union movement, so it was juxtaposed against the American Federation of labour, which is more of a skilled workers base union. So the i. W. W. , like what debs advocated with socialism was a Movement Among the working class of people. And its saw its boundaries not as nationalistic. It sought to work with workers and other countries, spain, france, italy, and this never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of a Workers Movement, workers fighting capital worldwide, rather than just within the United States. So it very much fit with debss later interpretation of what had to be done to promote the rights of workers, not only in the u. S. , but in other places in the world as well. Was he affiliated with them throughout his life . No. There was a split. Its complicated. There was a split within the i. W. W. Over socialist party had a split that affected the i w. W. , and so he remained very much supported the i w. W. But took less of a leadership position once rival socialist Party Leaders took, and big bill hay would, kind of took over the i. W. W. , at least brought it into a different vision than what debs had in mind. Was the i. W. W. The wall blaze . Yes. One of the most important fights was over the issue of violence or sabotage. The wall belize, it was a tough bunch in a very tough environment to work in the mines and lumber fields. And they argue that there were times, when in order to advance their cause, they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence in order to fight back. Did debs agree with that . Debs didnt agree. He was not a pacifist. He knew there were times where you needed violence, but he thought the strategy of advocating violence was not right for american democracy. And also, workers always lost when they tried violence. Most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. Next up is minneapolis. Hello, can. Hello. Thank you cspan for this programming. I work in public radio and a bit earlier your panelists were talking about debs and media. In new york city, there was a famous Radio Station named for eugene v. Debs, and it debuted in the early 19 twenties and was one of the nations first noncommercial, listener supported Radio Stations. In addition to having his name in the call letters, i was wondering if he had any interaction with the station . His demise was in 1926, for those just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. As far as we, know its an homage to, him but he had no direct connection to it. Lisa, we have 35 minutes left. This program is going by so quickly. A question for you about debs, if you can answer this. If he were to walk into this room, we are surrounded by images of him all over this house. Its interesting. Can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was . Was he slight . Give us some personal information. As far as i know, i think he was six foot three. Im not sure if thats correct. He was always very thin and lanky. And he was that way from his youth on. He was a commanding figure, but he was not burly, i would say. Ernie, you told me that he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fans of the day, some early holistic health. Can you tell us more . He was often ill. It was hard to pin down just what the problem was. So biographers have suggested it was a nervous exhaustion from these hard campaigns, the stress that he was under. You would often retreat to try to recover and find his way to places where he would experiment with walnuts and ketchup and sleeping with his head oriented towards the north and these sorts of things. Often he write letters back to his dear brother, suggesting these things were working out just great for him. Switching gears here in our time. And as the nation began to march towards world war i, what happened to the Labor Movement as all this International Political turmoil in this country was making these Big Decisions . When the war first broke out in europe, most American Workers and otherwise were really determined to keep out. They were isolationist, especially in the midwest. In the south they said god gave us the Atlantic Ocean for very good reason. Its not get involved in the european war. Many large immigrant groups in the country were deeply divided about the conflict overseas, but did not want to participate and helping the other side. So there was a strong push for neutrality. Really, until things escalated out of control. Wilson himself was elected for a second term, campaigning that he had kept the country out of war. He was a good negotiator for peace. Just weeks after being inaugurated for second term, he started to move the country to war. I want to show our viewers your book. We are now getting into your subject area of democracy. The great war and the russian dissent. In 1917, Congress Passed a law, a speech about the war. Could you tell our viewers what that law was . Its called the espionage act. It actually was never used to convict any spies during the war. There were german spies, and much of the law dealt with that. But there were also provisions there that allowed for the government to have enormous control over dissent. The postmaster was given the power to ban any publication that was publishing anything that was considered to be not supportive of the war or sufficiently patriotic and anybody who is deemed to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was liable to 10,000 dollar fines and ten to 20 years in prison. Obviously today, we look at it and say First Amendment challenges all over this. Did the Supreme Court ever hear the law . He did. Debs was one of the important test cases. There were three tests cases that came up and about 1200 people were convicted under the espionage act. They were sent to prison. Supreme Court Unanimously supported it at that point. Now debs began to be anti war at one point . He was, as i said earlier, he was not a pacifist, he said there are some wars in which he might make sense at some point to take up arms. He felt that the civil war was not an appropriate use of arms. He considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument, that it was a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were to benefit, the old phrase, the rich mans war, the poor mens fight. There was lots of money to be made in the war, but the working people were the ones who suffered. That was the socialist position. When the war broke out when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered a few days later in st. Louis. They passed a proclamation vowing that they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way they could. And fight the draft actively. A number of socialists broke from the party at that point. Up to sinclair, we have been talking about he had felt that had been the wrong move. Others worried that the party would be destroyed by this. They would be labeled an american. That steps and quite a number of the party decided it was a standing needed to. Take lets take a call from reed asking with the popular view in america was back of the draft at that time. Your question please. How you doing . Thank you for your discussion tonight. Its wonderful. I do want unfortunately, really, socialism, debs and the ideal, the key word meaning essential planning, that would mean that there is a group who involved themselves and essential planning of our economy or our society and that leads itself to a small group we defines how citizens should behave and i want to say that socialism, although wonderful in its ideals and all that, it does not truly exist. I believe James Madison described it correctly. Thats unfortunately, we are in competition with one another. That is what leads to individual freedom. Essential planning leads to a small group, which today, reflects today as we want someone whos essentially planning our society. It just leads to someone in a small Group Calling who is and who isnt. Thank you again. Thanks. Lisa phillips, comments . Actually, that was not too far off from debs position. He argued central planners of this day for these large Business Owners, the rockefellers, the crew really is vanderbilts who had a lot of political power influence and who in essence, through monopoly formation where the central planners of the economy in that period. He would have been with you on that, that he just wanted there to be a more diverse of group of people, working people who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed so he was against the Central Planning that was being done in the period by very wealthy, by that point, americans and Business Owners. In the interest of time, we were talking about the draft, but i want you to go on to his position on the draft. His famous speech and canton, ohio. To share with our viewers, it was a speech that ended up having debs arrested. Here is a flavor of. It the working class who freely shed their blood and furnished the corpse this have never yet had a voice and declaring a war or making peace. Yours not to reason why, yours but to do and die, and for is right, let it be declared by the people. When he made that speech, did he know he was going to go to jail . He had to know that it was likely. He knew that there were federal agents, stenographers in the audience taking down what he had to say. I think he gave a number of speeches along the same lines up to that point and had not been arrested. He said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say and i wont say anything i dont believe, but i know im being watched. I have to be careful. The audience fully understood the situation. He spent a lot of times in that speech denouncing the fact that many of his contracts were already in prison and he said if they are guilty than i am guilty. What was his was International Event . It certainly was. It was in cleveland. And debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism. In front of a national audience. His lawyers hoped to get him off on a technicality and they were also interested in making strong free speech argument in his defense. He felt as if the system was rigged and the judiciary was in the pockets of big business and it was more important for him to take the opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism by sort of laying out his lifes work. He ultimately was sentenced to ten years he said the possible terms were up to 20. Ten was its hard to say he got a break. He was an older man at that point. Not in good health. When he went off to prison many people assume that if you do not get out he would have died in prison. At that point, we will take calls and talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. So he comes to oklahoma. Donna, go ahead please. I am so happy to hear this program and i cannot tell you how grateful i am to have this over the air. A little comment about ledlow, colorado. I was a very good friend of a woman who is my mothers agent she talked about her parents being part of what happened in ledlow and she told me, because i was going on a road trip with my son to look for a sign just north of trinidad alongside the road, and all it will say is this is the place. That is the place where my front terris mother and father ran down a dry river bed, was shot, fired all around them running for their lives. The second thing i would like to say is a Little Something about sinclair. I lived several years and sand pedro, california. With dock workers. Upton, sinclair was arrested in sandra for reading the constitution to the dock workers and that began the Southern California aclu. The third comment is that i have moved back to oklahoma i lived here as a teenager but i went to a labor rally and support of it was on the States Capital steps. A friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin and she told me that it was the Oklahoma State and it was from a socialist desire. It is labor now we are the state of the union. Which is kind of an ironic thing. Donna, thank you so much for your comments. Let that stand and take a telephone call from eric in los angeles. Go ahead. Hello i am also enjoying this. I think eugene debs really try to keep it to the ideals, and my question there was about joe who was a Christian Socialist ran on a. Take it with dubs in the 1900 and later was involved in the trial of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. I know he was one of the attorneys along with clarence, i know that debs contended, defended. I wonder if they could comment about that. Thank you. Lisa phillips, as disappeared of dubs like that you could fill a son . I dont know enough about it. I do know that i failed to mention earlier that clearance was a big part of eugene debs defenceman 1894 after he was accused of being can kicked it for tempering with court with the injunction effort. I dont know enough about joe paramount to comment on his involvement with depths or the mcnamara brothers. Which was the Los Angeles Times building, the center of a tremendous antilabor and antisocialist sentiment at that point. He believed that the magnum areas were innocent and so much of his defense of them was really based on believing that this was a false charge. The second sentencing was under the espionage act. He made a speech at his sentencing from that time. It was eugene debs most famous. I say then and i say now while there is a lower class, i am in it. While there is a criminal element, i am of it, and while there is a soul in prison i am not free. Then the 1920 campaign where he decided to take part in can you tell me how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta . How did he do that . He was not allowed. It was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a sedition assist being jailed but he was also a legitimate candidate from illegitimately goal party. Actually showed up and presented him with flowers and nominated him to give him a little speech. The socialists did. Then the government allowed him only to campaign by submitting, i think it was eight 500 word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. Somebody who had been on the red special giving hundreds of speeches was basically spending the campaign relying on his party. To grab and spread the word. Can you show us the Campaign Button . There it is. Its very small. What does that say . It says convict number 90 6 53 for president. It is one of the most famous Campaign Buttons for the president in u. S. History. Its one of the only like it. He managed to garner nearly 1 million votes from inside that federal penitentiary. How did he do . That that is a question for you, lisa. He did that because he had such a National Following biden. It was 1920 and he had been in the National Newspapers for several years. People knew of his message and the idly w. Continue to support. Him labor unions continue to support him. Despite the fact that he was accused of encouraging people not to listen the military aid during world war i which was extremely problematic, he still had a following on trade unionists and socialists who believed in his message. He did that because of his National Reputation by then. What were some of the other themes of the 1920 campaigns . Many of the socialist leaders were maybe a little less, but his campaigners said this is actually a vote for free speech. This was an opportunity for all americans, whether you are socialist or not to cast a vote and protest against the wilson administrations debs at that point, all of the prisoners who were in prison and all of the actions that had been done by mob violence, by state laws, by the postal sensor to not just socialist, but pacifist of all kinds had been rounded up. My 1920, Many Americans in the grip of war fever, thought it was a good idea to reconsider that and they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the American Civil Liberties union. They tried to advance their rights. And so there were only about 100,000 socialists. Far less than that by this point. I think the number is something in the 20 to 30,000 paying members at this point. He got 1 million votes. Some of those people were socialists, but i think an awful lot of those people were actually voting for free speech. Dave. Hi, dave. I. How are you on . Great, thanks. Here we are in your town. Do you have a question about one of your famous citizens . I am a graduate of Indiana State University. The same university you are all sitting on. What was the impact on the university at the time i was in north india. A Normal School. A school of educators. Did you have an influence and what part did he take in the development of the university . Thanks very much. Lisa, you . No i dont know its a great question. I do not know if eugene debs had any kind of influence on indiana state in a Normal School on that period. Im curious now to find out. Syracuse, new york. Go ahead. Hi. Im a worker from upstate new york. I think that the problem was that you had at the time, he had eugene debs and the socialist labour party and socialist Workers Party and then you had samuel gompers, the American Federation of labour. Gompers and eugene debs did not see eye to eye. I think thats a problem that you never had, unified Workers Movement in this country, because that was his problem. He was never able to achieve his goals i would like to know your comment on that. Thank you very much. Lisa phillips . It is continuous to the present day among labor unions with regards to the split between and that period it was craft unionism which was embodied by the American Labor versus Industrial Unionism so debs was after the working Class Movement where you would erase the lines that would divide skill workers from unskilled workers. It was composed a very tightly organized craft based unions, whether they be coopers or plummer,s carpenters, brick layers. That sort of thing. It was sort of a very different kind of approach toward representing working class interest and they did not see eye to eye in continuing into the 19 thirties and beyond. Debs campaigning for the president in 1920, during the wilson administration, twice, his attorney general put before him comments he petitions. Why did wilson say no . It is a little complicated. Wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as a way to sort of clear the air after the war. He had a stroke and its he seemed to lose his moral compass. Many people felt, his supporters felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill that he might make he heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that depths was a trader. He certainly was not just a government that considered debs and because others to have crossed a line. He was the embodiment of that dissent. Was there an active campaign with lots of money by the american legion. Veterans groups like that to keep debs in jail . That was one of their primary missions when he first organized after world war one. They said this was their priority number one. Keep debs in prison. The ku klux klan was emerging at this. Point they were also considered debs and other radicals, that it was important they stay in prison. There was a lot of pressure on the president. Not a lot of political gain in his judgment to release. How did he secure an Early Release . Wilson left office and and the whole process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren hearting. People in the Amnesty Movement were a lot less optimistic about convincing harding, because harding was a conservative business republican. He seemed to have less motivation. There were plenty of socialists who supported wilson. It seemed like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of prison. But harding, he campaigned on this idea of returning the country to a preet war normalcy, to sort of stop these tensions. The protest movement, the Amnesty Movement to try to get debs out of prison, was not just the election, but it was a huge movement. There were petitions being gathered on the streets and all across the country. Massive petitions them. They would have to bring the petitions and on the back of a pick up truck to deliver to the white house. Many people from across europe and the United States, George Bernard shaw, hd wells, helen keller, many people were involved in this movement to try to get the prisoners out. I think for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess. In the name of normalcy, he waited a little while and he left. They not only let him out that they invited him to the white house. Thats right. He went . He went. What do we know about that meeting . Either one of them said anything about it. Harding said something like, i am so darn glad to meet you. It was a christmas morning. Christmas afternoon meeting, i guess. He came out and said harding seems like a very nice man. I believe he said that the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric, but i have no intention of doing that and he got back on the train. You are looking at some extremely rare footage. I dont know that it has been seen before on television, of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media with his meeting with the president. He lived until 1926 and we have about ten minutes left so lets get a couple calls and talk about that legacy. James, you are on the air. Go ahead, please. Hi. Id like to ask two questions. I have two questions. Next call is from south carolina. Hi, good evening. In my question, i just want to know what you think if any of debs movement could exist in modern day america, global capitalism, and what you think he would think about the Tea Party Movement that is going on currently . Thank you. Thanks so much. Its always a tough thing for historians, isnt it, to project with a historical character might think of today. It needs to be done with real caution. Firstly, i would say global capitalism is not something new and that is very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and the flow of worldwide nature of capitalism. Sometimes it seems we overstate the distinctive Global Nature of the economy that we live in now. As far as the tea party goes, lisa . You certainly wouldnt have been an agreement with the tea party supportive its the simplest way could put it. I dont know, his message still resonates. We are still facing some of the same problems that he was fighting against the result of workers wages being driven down by policies and multinational corporations, not just in the u. S. But worldwide. So he certainly would have a lot to say about the same types of things that would have escalated in this period from today. Im sure he would still be against the negative impact of the Multi International corporations globally. You have the cellblock ease . Look at the size of those. They are huge. Why dont i use a reminder of the prison terms to have you help us kind of finish on our program. We have six or seven minutes left. How is he viewed by the Labor Movement today . How do they look back on his time and his contributions . I just attended a banquet last week put down where many trade unionists and danny glover was in attendance. Everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. He continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. It certainly resonates here and among trade unionists across the country. As we think about the final years, im showing you before we started here, the time magazine, monday november 1st, 1926. Its his obituary. Radicals. Heres what they were. A christmas day, 1921. President harding, pardon the model prisoner, a broken profit, around him he saw the socialist party disintegrating, but then in him he felt the strength, his speeches seemed almost pathetic, his pen had lost his throb. A month ago he had went to a sanitary man illinois where he died at age 71. What were his final years like after prison . How important a voice was he in his last years . He spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly turned over by the war. Without success. That was both a self inflicting moon because the socialist party had a bitter split over communism. It was a very difficult thing for him, the communist were trying to convince him to join them. He was the countrys most famous, most highprofile and beloved radical, and the communist wanted very much to have him on board. He had been very enthusiastic about the bolsheviks revolution, but he refused, ultimately into sign on with the communists, objecting to the idea of a day of a dictatorship and to some of the methods of the bolsheviks. He was left with a half a party. Much of the young energy had gone into the communist party at this point. Meanwhile, the party had been smashed by legal attacks, as well as mob attacks during the war. He try to rebuild the party for those years without a whole lot of success. He is buried here in indiana. We have videos of the grave site and we will look at that as we listen to manny from new york city. Hi. My question is what was debs on Russian Revolution the mob in particular. Did you visit russia at that time. Could he separate socialism from marxism in that time period . Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Huge topics and not much time. Right. He did not visit russia. There was an attempt to get him to go to russia. The bolsheviks considered him to be an american hero. And he was, as i said, an admirer of the bolsheviks revolution, but ultimately felt like the russians, the bolsheviks did in russia were not appropriate for american socialism. That americans, and spite of all, he had experienced being sent to prison twice for his actions. He still believed in american democracy. He still believed that the way forward for American Workers which to organize unions and support the socialist party. We have another call. Its great to have local people participating. This is todd. Go ahead. Hi. I am calling from indiana. Id like to thank you for this program. Lisa, as i understand is a member of the eugene Debs Foundation. I would like her to peace, equality social justice. Let people know how they might pursue their interests in debs if they want to know more about it. Certainly. In this age of technology there is a website devoted to the Debs Foundation. Its an easy way to access more information about the Debs Foundation and about his legacy. The social justice pieces we call it today, as i said earlier, he is certainly continuing to provide inspiration to working people here and throughout the u. S. As they struggle against lowering wages, unemployment, all the things that are plaguing us today. This house is open for visitors. How many do you get every year and how many people visit . I dont know the numbers and how many people we have every year. The museum is open every afternoon of the week. On saturdays, and you can go to the website and contact karen brown who runs towards of the museum throughout the. We we have one minute left. I will turn the floor over. To another great resource as the Indiana State University of special collections. It has online enemies and collection of images of debs, but also pamphlets and access to more information. Will close with your book. Democracies prisoner. About eugene debs and his imprisonment under the espionage act and his campaign for a president ial campaign in 1920. Thanks to both of you as we close off here. Thanks for being with us from indiana. Telling us more about this third party, fivetime pursuer of the white house and his reflect on American History. Wed like to say thank you to the eugene Debs Foundation. Debs dot orchid is the website. Our affiliate time owner, thank you to all of you for putting this program together. From indiana, eugene debs museum. Columbia University Professor eric foner examines socialist moments in new york city and milwaukee. He discusses the mobile president ial campaigns of