Transcripts For CSPAN3 Senate Hearing On Wildfire Forest Management 20240712

Works subcommittee will address options to address the wild fires and Forest Management. This includes testimony from an interior Deputy Department official and deputy chief of the u. S. Forest service. Good afternoon, everyone. This subcommittee will come to t order. The purpose of todays hearing is to receiveands testimony on i bills pending beforece the publo lands force and mining subcommittee. Because of the large number of t bills onhe todays c agenda, it going to go through all of them right now. But the complete agenda will, of course, be included in the record. I want to note at the outset weve got a former member of our committee here, former senator from louisiana, longtime member of the senate and this committee is in the back. Weve got members who will be at t who have tly another Committee Assignment at the i moment. E. We have others who will be d eme joining us dtelephonically. As i want to recognize the staggering loss of life that has occurred embedded within what has raped up to be a really horrific wild fire season. More than 36 people have perished in infernos raging through the western United States this year. R. Dozens more are missing. In oregon, my thousands have lost their homes. In my home state of utah and elsewhere in the west weve got winddriven fires that continue to spread across our federal, state, tribal and public lands. E with all these wild fires raging throughout the west, i was addrs thrilleds to see that we would e ceiving testimony on legislationi to address the management of our federal ny ins forests. I strongly believe that the megafires were watching on tv could have, in many, many instances, been prevented if only active Management Practices had been implemented. N as many of you are probably aware, forests have been shaped and have been influenced by fire for certainly as long as our species has been around and even longer. Cycles of burning and regrowth are completely natural. Onditi they arent a new feature of current climate conditions, as some would have us believe. They these fires werent unpredictable. They were predictable. P and inrepa fact, they were ttaby predicted. We could have prepared for them. But the management of our forests has regrettably become ham strung, partly by regulations promulgated by exae bureaucrats, operating many miles away from the lands theyre in charge of t likely administering. Unr example, regulations under thein Clean Air Act perversely d most likely unintentionally worn to discourage the practice of letting fires burn, especially s in those areas that have, air pollution levels that exceed permissible standards. In these instances, they may favor reactive shortterm Fire Suppression at the expense of heightened longterm risks. When congress imagined activities like prescribed burns or removal of snag trees, congress did not foresee a regulatory byzantine labyrinth that led to litigation at every other turn. Litigation in many instances tec would end upou forestalling thes taking of precautionary measures and ultimately could lead to fires that could, in turn, lead to the loss of life and environmental catastrophe. Management of our forest has moved awau from proactive fiasures, largely out of fear, quite legitimate and elihoods wellfounded fear of being suedn this has led to bigger fires, threatening greater numbers of lives, livelihoods and homes. Cases, it has also e had resulted in additional and wor e air pollution than would have otherwise been the case, had ree priored burns been allowed to occur or forest overgrowth been eliminated. Research tells us that between 4. 4 million and 11. 8 million ifr acres burned eachni yeara in prehistoric california. Between 1882 and 1892, the land managers burned on average about 30,000 ache rs a year. Between 1999 and 2017, that thmber dropped to an annual 13,000 acres. E that is a tremendous gap between the natural cycle and what our a Forest Managementve efforts havl provided. P now, im grateful that we have skilled Emergency Personnel whoa helpnd prevent tragedy from fort fire. These brave women and men put their lives on the line during the course of their work and do so on ath regular basis and qui heroically. Theyre a necessarywe can d par burest management strategy. We can do more to ease the etedc burdenon that they face with bus targeted control burns and with removal of excess fuel that ns,p buildseo up within our forests. With these burns, people can plan ahead and get out of town, install a hepa filter in their homes, make a plan for their needs. Olled military style of Fire Fighting environmentallylywild destructive in some casess than controlled burns or in some rare instances than the wild fire itself. Suppression tactics often include cutting down large snags, bulldozes miles of ridge tops and lighting high severity fires to control the fire eral behavior. I believe that a large portion of this could be prevented if local agencies and federal toryb partners could side step illogical regulatory barriers and address the obvious problems that lead to catastrophe. I hope that today we can make Real Progress in addressing the needs of communities put at risf by poor Management Practices. Additionally on the agenda today act w are a number of bills related to proper management including the miracle mountain designation act. This bill memorializing the events surrounding the bald ke e mountain fire of 2018, a fastmoving wild fire not unlike the explosive infernos weve. Seen in oregon and california of nete. And this fire, the Bald Mountain fire of 2018, is one that nearly incinerated the community of elg ridge city in utah. Defying all logic, the advancing fire unexpectedly stopped along an unnamed mountain barely two miles from homes andmo from the evacuation routes. Ah mountainn quickly earned the nickname miracle mountain. Elk ridge city was blessed, but elsewhere around the country y year after year, families are forced tohometter for evacuate t due to wildy fire. As previously mentioned, better Forest Management can reduce ths severity of wild fires and reduce the risk to fire prone no communities. We need a range of management tools too cut the red tape and curve frivolous litigation that has stalled fuel reduction projects in efforts to remove m dead and dying trees from poorle managed federal land. Its timely today that well hear testimony on the emergencyd wild life and Public Safety actt a bill sponsored by senator feinstein and senator danes. It proposes to accelerate wild s projects across the cotton wood state. Senator feinstein has joined usa tond provide a few brief remark about her bill. Today senateak senat senator about senator udahl and murkowski will also join us. I look forward to hearing more about each of these bills and the otherag bills on todays agenda. With that, i would like to turn to senator wyden whos the Ranking Member on thisis commite for his remarks. Senator wyden. Thank you very much mr. Thechairman, and i appreci you holding this. I also note the presence of our chair, senator murkowski, one of the aspects of service i most ec enjoyed was when i was chair and she was the Ranking Member and weve continued those kinds of efforts in the years ahead. And i thank her for her courtesy this morning as well. What i can tell you, colleagues, is scores of fires have hit my state harder than a wrecking ball. Many of them are still going on. These are not your grandfathers fires. L and i they are bigger, they are hotter, theyre more dangerous, theyre more powerful. I never conceived growing up with fires leaping over rivers. And we had fires in our part of the country who reduced whole neighborhoods to ash and actually melted cars. Therest nothing left there of car. Just picture what it means to get so hot that youre just melting, you know, automobiles. And there is a connection there between fire and bill that ive introduced 2828, Community Empowerment act. This is extraordinarily important in rural oregon. H actually the poorest in my state. Co counties hardest its hit by the coronavirus. The bill is about two things. A y its about preserving ranching and ag may of life as an economic engine, growing the ceh local economic engine and also protecting the absolutely gorgeous places that are part of this region. Just extraordinary. Now, im going to go into the bill just briefly in a moment. And i just want to come back to the relationship, to the fires for just one moment. If the fires teach us anything and the chair and i went through this this morning because this is going to be a with respect to this whole fire debate. If the firesng, it teach us an its that people who need jobs , can p and should be put to work restoring our public lands, preparing homes for fire resiliency and shoring up Rural Communities against encroachment of the pandemic. And this includes jobs for the restoration of a million acres of weedinfested public lands ii the county. And i really have appreciated e thear comments of my friend fro nevada over the years with to her public lands because her public lands are a t bit different than our public rn lands. But in both cases, we need to dw a lot of restoration work, and we can put people of restoratiok and we can put people to work and spare ourselves catastrophes. The only other point is the senate, and working on these issues, has got to step up its pace. We talked about that this morning. Two years ago, a contingent of family ranchers came to d. C. And they asked for a meeting with me. I was a bit slack jawed because i was just stunned that they were coming to meet with me and asked to work with me on a big project. I was under the impression that i would be probably the last person they would come and talk to. I asked them why they were there in the office and they didnt really say. Finally, i said i think youve come because you believe im the only one, senator murkowski, crazy enough to get in the middle of trying to work out an agreement that has been sought for decades in this part of the world, between the ranchers and environmental folks and the like. When i said it, they all pretty much smiled and said yes, thats why we are here. We are here because we think you are the only one crazy enough to get into the middle of this thing and try to sort it out. It is a fabulous area. Senator heinrich, my great friend, knows a lot about it. What i said when we started working on this at that point impossible undertaking, senator murkowski, you and i have been there before. Is look, we are gonna protect the way of life. We will not let anyone trample over the farmers and the ranchers and that way of life. I also said were not going to throw the environmental laws in the trash can. We will not just eviscerate the environmental laws. Everybody knew those priorities Going Forward. There was widespread agreement about juniper and fire prone weeds that were putting the lands at risk. We heard ranchers dealing with visitors who would follow their gps because it was risking their life and dangerous places. We said we will have to have some loop roads to facilitate the safe visit to these wonderful sites without compromising them. We went round and round and we listened to scientists and educators and people who love the land and farmers. We put pencil to paper and the bill that we are hearing today represents the spirit of compromise. Nobody got everything they wanted, but everybody got Something Better than they have right now. I would also tell my colleagues, from historical tech standpoint, the ahwahnee isnt that far away from the area where we had the wildlife takeovers. So theres been some challenges in this part of the world. I cant credit the community and now because they said we are going to find some compromise. Nobody will get everything they want it. The bill ensures Land Management can adapt to changing circumstances like Climate Change and route by establishing new citizen led communities to support transparent realtime management of those lands. There is certainty for land users by setting a group of agreed practices that are eligible for streamlined environmental review. The bill sets aside just over 1 million acres of land as wilderness. Without the flexibility of range land improvements, we move away while protecting environmental laws from fullblown analysis. If youre talking about moving and irrigation trough away a bit from a river. I will just conclude by way of saying, now there are a lot of ranchers who say this is something i can build my future around. This is an opportunity for my kids and my grandkids to have a future in the a why he. A lot of environmental folks have said they can live with this bill and neither side would have written it. The last point i will make, just because when i started on this legislation, the chair was very gracious. I told her this was really important to me in a personal way because our staff are, who had been with me for a quarter century, had been working on this for ages and ages. When i went to visitor in her hospice bed, her whole wall was full of maps. Full of maps of the owyhee. The whole law was filled with maps. She was talking with people and trying. That is what she stood for. People would talk to her and she would say, were not ron is going to stay at this thing until he gets both sides together, the ranchers and environmentalists. And i said no. If we get it together, its because of mary kudrow. I want to get this bill passed and i want to dedicated to marry. Chair murkowski, from the day that mary passed, you have been in our corner for a lot of things. I just want to say thanks. Thank you chair. Thank you senator wyden. We have several members who have joined us to talk about their respective bills. We will start doing that. We will start with our chairman, senator murkowski. We will go to senator manchin afterwards. Thank you. I will be brief with my comments today because we have a fair number of not only, those of us who are on the diocese that are speaking today, but we also have friends to the Energy Committee that are here to speak to their bills as well. I have a small bill that i want to speak to briefly. But before i do, i want to share my thoughts and prayers and my sincere hope for rain and for recovery for so many who are facing the tremendous wildfires out west in oregon, and washington of course, and of course in california. To you senator wyden and senator feinstein, you have my heartfelt condolences for the loss of life. The loss of property, environmental damage that your states are enduring currently. Know that its not only my thoughts that are reflected, but so many of us share in a real sense of loss for what you are experiencing right now. Right now, there are thousands of men and women that are working on these fires bravely working on putting out these devastating fires. They are putting their lives at risk morning, noon and night, in the midst of a pandemic on top of all of this. So our hearts and prayers are with them and with their family members. Alaskans are certainly thinking about them and hoping they are safe because we have a good group of alaskans, some 400 plus, that are in your states. Whether its in california, oregon, colorado, they are around. We escaped some significant fires this year and so i think you have some folks that are fresh that have come to you. We have also sent assets, but knowing that we are in this fight with you is important to us as we keep you all in our prayers. I want to thank mr. French and miss castor to be here to provide testimony today including on senator feinstein bill that she has with senator daines to reduce the risk of wildfires and protect our communities. Senator feinstein, you and i had an opportunity on the floor for me to thank you on your continued work on this. It is greatly appreciated. And to senator daines, i know hes coming, thank him for his critical work on this very important, important issue. I want to acknowledge the work of my friend from rhode island on his offshore act. He and i have had much time to speak about that. We will do more on that. I also want to recognize, mister chairman, that we have a former chair of the energy and Natural Resources committee here, Mary Landrieus in the back. Its always good to see mary and know that you are vigilant and staying on top of these issues. We appreciate that. Miss castor, since you are here representing the department of the interior, i want to take just a quick moment to recognize and congratulate the department on its recently completed review from the office of government ethics. Oh ge took a look at the structural improvements in the department has made to its Ethics Program including additional training, new staff and a constant guilt consolidated consistent approach across all of its bureaus and agencies. Oh gee he found that all 14 of the recommendations from its last comprehensive review back in 2016 have been fully resolved. The agency offered no new findings or recommendations for improvements. That is something i understand has never happened at the department. In fact, its rare across the whole of government. I want to pass my appreciation onto secretary bernhardt two designated Agency Ethics officer heather got tree and to all in the department who have rebuilt its Ethics Program. I think oge report is a testament to the significant multi year effort and need to be commended on this effort. Briefly mister chairman, here are a few words. Ive introduced this measure. Its very simple. It prevents alaskan native elders to become eligible on federal based needs programs because of benefits they received from the settlement trust. This is authorized under the alaska native claims settlement act. These settlement arrests are an important source of support for many elders we live in very remote high cost rural areas. But they do not displace the need for any federal support that combat the poverty and Health Care Challenges these communities face. So i have letters of support for this bill that i would ask unanimous consent be included as part of the record. Without objection. And mister chairman, i want to, again, thank you for holding this hearing. Lots of good bills on the agenda today. We also have more that we would like to hear before the end of the year. Senator manchin and i have been talking about this. We hoped wed be able to schedule one more subcommittee hearing likely early on provided that we are able to do that. But i think i thank you for this very expeditious review of so many significant matters. I thank the committee for its time. Thank you, madam chair. We will now turn to senator mansion. Thank you chairman lee. Thank you Ranking Member wyden for convening a legislative hearing today which is so important. Im glad my good friends, senator whitehouse, weve had many good conversations is here. Of course, senator feinstein for being here. We are so glad to have them. Also, its good to see senator Mary Landrieu who is someone ive enjoyed working with. I appreciate her being here. It represents the priorities of many members of both sides of the aisle including several of the committee. As you know, many of these bills reflects years of work to get to this point and im pleased to see them included in todays hearing. I like to take a moment to acknowledge horrific wildfires that many of our western states are facing and our heart goes out to each and every one of you and all of your constituents in your states. Its just unbelievable. This year, states throughout the west are experiencing an extraordinary number of very large wildfires called mega fires. They are each over 100,000 acres in size. These mega fires in quite require intensive staffing. But due to the Covid Concerns at the beginning of the season, firefighters testing positive during the season, exhaustion and the sheer size of these fires, Staffing Levels to fight these fires are far lower than normal and lower than where they need to be. Im told that we need 5000 firefighters to adequately be able to do the job that needs to be done. Given that six of the 20 largest wildfires in californias history are burning right now, right now, and senator feinsteins home state. I look forward to hearing from her directly about the needs of the people in her state and how we can help. Immediate action is needed to respond to the ongoing fires. In addition, we only to recognize that this is a perennial issue that is worsening every year. And so we need to be thinking about both short and Long Term Solutions for these wildfires. That includes securing additional firefighters, injuring the necessary Fire Prevention work, like controlled burns to help prevent future large wildfires that gets underway. We must commit to taking the necessary proactive mitigation steps Going Forward. And furthermore, we need to ensure that the administration is using every tool that is already in the tool box to provide assistance right now. Were not talking about next week or next month or next year, but right now. I stand by my western colleagues and am ready to work with each of you. Id also like to take a moment on senators white houses offshore act, which would establish a revenue sharing model for offshore wind that very slightly from the revenue sharing model set up by the oil and gas in the gulf of mexico. His bill would create a dedicated revenue stream to invest in the protection of postal communities coastal communities. Something each of us know he feels great passionate about and rightfully so. We were not able to consider his bills as part of the Great American outdoors act earlier this year, but i am glad that it is on our agenda today and i look forward to hearing from senator white house and learning more about this bill. With that, i thank you again and all my colleagues for joining us and our witnesses for appearing before us today. Thank you, chairman. Thank you senator mansion. Okay, let me tell you where were going next. Weve now heard from the chair and Ranking Member of the subcommittee and the committee as a whole. We are now going to hear alternating between democrats and republicans, four members of the committee who want to speak briefly about legislation that will be discussing today. After that, we will hear from other members of the senate who are not members of the committee what alternating between democrats and republicans. I think we have all democrats at this point, so you might have the run of the show. Please single to me if you are here either virtually or in person. If you want to speak, weve got senator king whos up to bat next. We will hear from him now. He will be joining us virtually. Go ahead, senator king. Yes, thank you very much mister chairman and thank you for having this hearing. I want to join all my colleagues and expressing my regret and sympathy and heartfelt wishes to the people of the west that are experiencing these terrible fires. Secondly, i want to add my voice to support senator white house on the offshore bill. I think this is something that is going to be important for the country Going Forward. Using the analogy of the offshore oil industry and the revenues and the dedication of those revenues to coastal states that will be having some of the impacts, i think, makes total sense. What i want to speak about for a few minutes, mister chair, is as 33 66. This is a very simple bill that provides free parking passes to gold star families. The sacrifice that have been made on behalf of these families by gold star families is almost a man unimaginable. I think anything we can do to show recognition and appreciation for that sacrifice, we should do it. Basically, as i said, its very simple. From parker passes and it would be for family members that would be a technique to allow them to identify themselves or to provide a document at the park, just as we now do for active duty military. This is supported by the american legion. It is supported by the various park supportive groups and the vfw. This is a very strong bill. I believe its been introduced in the house. My cosponsors on this side are senator daines and senator alexander. The good news is, from a budget point of view, the ceo says it does not score. The cost would be incidental and immeasurable, but the value to these families would also be a measurable. In a positive way. So, mister chairman, i appreciate you giving me time to say a few words. I think this is a bill that we can move expeditiously and we have foundering this epidemic that people really seriously value their time outdoors. They value the great benefits that are provided by the experiences of our National Parks and public lands. I will look forward to the consideration by the committee and i appreciate the committees taking up this bill today. Thank you, mister chairman. I will turn it back to you. Thank you very much senator king. Any members of the committee who are here who want to speak to a particular part of legislation. I see senator cortez masto. Thank you for including two bills important to new mexico on todays agenda. The Scenic Rivers act would permanently protect some of the most dynamic and spectacular rivers and streams in our country. The healer and San Francisco rivers are the beating heart of southwest new mexico. They are home to some of the most spectacular places in the west. Full stop. This legislation is a result of many of years of advocacy by Community Members who want to see their local rivers protect. I was quite happy to join senator udall in both drafting and introducing this legislation. In response to the Overwhelming Community support, we named the bill in off in honor of my friend dutch salmon. A wrangler, writer, conservationists and the most ardent defender who passed away last year. The healer is wild and free today, on and undergirded in no small part because of duchess decades and decades of work to keep it that way. This legislation will make sure that it will stay that way for generations to come. The second bill for new mexico on todays agenda is the bill to set a designate a wilderness area. With a peak of nearly 10,000 feet, it is the home of some of the best elk habitat in new york burn new mexico. I know that because i hunted this unit just last fall. This legislation is supported by a wide range of Community Members as well as the county commission and people. Protecting its peak and spectacular views have long been a priority for the community and im proud that this bill is moving forward today. Thank you to the witnesses testifying today, including both new mexicans, and thank you chairman lee and Ranking Member widen, including these bills on the docket today. Thank you. Senator daines, you wanted to speak on your legislation before we go to the witnesses . We will hear from senator daines and then from senator cortez masto. Yes, im grateful that im here with senator feinstein today. As we have been working together on this important piece of legislation that it addresses the issue of force management. Now being better stewards of our forests. As we say in montana, either were going to better manage our force or our forests are going to manage us. As we are seeing the raging wildfires in california and oregon and washington, a lot of that smoke is coming into montana and we grieve for the with the people of california that have lost life. They have lost structures and habitat. Im grateful that we are here today to consider this legislation. I will tell you that its not too often that a republican from montana and a democrat from california are locking arms here and joining together to address this issue here. To keep our communities safer through better Forest Management. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you. Senator cortez masto. Thank you mister chairman and Ranking Member wyden. Todays legislative hearing before the subcommittee. I appreciate you including my bill in the package today. The Douglas County Economic Development and conservation act is important for nevada. This is truly a bill that not only is it important for the state, but the constituents. I just think everybody in the witness testimony today for the opportunity to have a discussion around this bill. I introduced this bill to promote conservation to improve public Lands Management and expandedlimited yet focused Economic Development opportunities for Douglas County nevada. The bill was developed in collaboration with local officials and includes the support of my nevada colleagues. This bill represents the nevada style of legislating our local Land Management needs as it is the combination of a multiyear effort of people coming together and making compromise. It includes the support from local government, the business community, conservationists and the native tribes of nevada and california. Before we go further, let me just give you an idea, when i talk about Douglas County, what involves. Douglas county is located in western nevada. Within its boundaries are portions of like to hope, this year in Nevada Mountain range and the carson and walker rivers. These diverse landscapes draw outdoor enthusiasts from around the world. The county also contains the oldest permanent settlement in nevada, Cultural Heritage sites, historical cup agricultural operations, paleontological treasures and Natural Resources. Its drives to cater to a growing annual visitor ship while retaining its rural character. Douglas county lambast is 67. 9 federal land. That is administered by the u. S. For service. That is important. It is one of many of our counties where the federal government comes in and out most of the land. Nearly 256,000 acres is managed by the federal government these public lands provide a variety of popular recreational opportunities. These activities and the industries they support are critical to the Economic Prosperity of the county employing 30 of the local workforce. In 2009 is when Douglas County started this comprehensive planning effort. During that time, the incorporated tribes, state agencies, local agencies, towns and more than 90 stakeholder groups to facilitate the bill that is before you today. Im so pleased to be able to introduce this knowing that all of the work that has gone into this bill. Specifically, it can basics the seven acres to the state in abetted to be managed within the lake tahoe state park. It can base over 7000 acres to the county local Flood Control management and recreation. It directs the sale of 60 acres, whose revenue will hold and find local conservation measures. It conveys nearly 27 acres of important cultural sites. It designates nearly 12,400 acres of wilderness. This bill has come a long way since 2009 when it was initially conceived. Although some issues still remain, many of the complicated issues have been resolved. I look forward to working not only with our federal partners who i know are committed to working with us on this bill, that all of my colleagues here to make sure that we can move this important piece of legislation. Thank you. Thank you senator cortez masto. We will now be hearing from many of our senate colleagues, not members of the committee. We will hear first from senator feinstein. Thank you very much, mister chairman. Thank you very much. She isnt here at the moment, but i want to thank chairman murkowski for her words. Ranking member mansion, subcommittee chairman lee, wyden. Thank you for moving so quickly on this bill. I want to thank senator daines. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a partner. It took a while to put this together, but we have it now. I hope it can pass quickly. Let me be blunt. California is on fire. Smoke is blanketing the entire western part of the United States and a good dose of it was here yesterday. Californias traditional fire season has only just started, but five of californias largest fires in history have occurred this year. As i speak, 25 major fires are burning across nearly two point million acres statewide. 25 californians have died in these fires. 4200 homes and structures have been destroyed. And more than 42,000 people have been evacuated. I think we have 90 pieces of equipment in the state today from other states. The largest fire in state history is now burning in the Mendicino National forest. It is 875,000 acres. All told, 3. 2 million have burned so far this year, the most instate history. And the same is happening across the west. 350,000 fires as you pointed out, senator wyden, in oregon. Displacing more than 10 of your population. 300,000 acres have burned in washington. 150,000 in montana and 100,000 in colorado. We have to change our approach in dealing with wildfire. How we manage our forests. We cant just sit here and do nothing. Lightning is the source of these huge fires. Ive kind of decided im going to make lightning of pursuit and see what i can learn about it, what we might be able to do about it, if anything, because every year it becomes more and more a source of major fire in the state. Thats why senator daines and i worked for months to draft the bipartisan emergency wildfire and Public Safety act. To make some important changes that will help us cope with catastrophic wildfire. Our bill has the endorsement of california governor, gavin newsom, dozens of cities and counties in california and numerous conservation organizations, fire districts and utilities. I would ask that a list of endorsers be placed in the hearing record if i might. Without objection. Thank you, mister chairman. I would like to briefly explain three key provisions of the bill. We have to address the dead and dying trees in our forests that provide fuel for these disasters. There are more than 150 million dead trees in californias forests. The result of drought, bark beetle populations that thrive and warmer temperatures. Our bill creates 100 Million Dollar Grant Program and provides other incentives to help make harvesting dead trees more commercially viable. Incentivizing businesses to step in and reduce the fuel load in our forests. Secondly, we need to increase the use of firebreaks and prescribed burns. Much like removing dead trees, fire breaks help slow fires and limit their spread. Our bill would allow for expedited environmental reviews regarding the installation of fire breaks near existing roads, trails, transmission lines and pipelines. The bill also requires the fire service to consult with the fish and Wildlife Service when new Peer Reviewed Research Shows that a project could harm, threatened or endangered species. As senator wyden as noticed, we must also increase the use of prescribed burns that help prevent forests from being overgrown and more susceptible to unstoppable fires. Our bill establishes a new prescribed fire center to coordinate research and training of foresters and Forest Managers in best practices. And third, we need to do more to help improve resiliency in fire prone communities. Our bill expands a key program to aid the retrofit of homes with fireproofing materials to prevent the leveling of entire neighborhoods. We saw that in paradise california in 2018. I went up there and ive never seen anything like it. When you see the expanse of fire and how the wind moves fire and how it will catch one block in rural areas and then skip a block and then the next block and wipe out half of a commercial area. That is what happened in these huge fires in paradise in 2018. We also promote the under grounding of utility wires to prevent wildfires and the development of distributed energy such as micro grids, to mitigate the impact of power shut offs. Yes, Climate Change is making these fires worse by the year and weve got to address it. Our bill takes aim at the direct most immediate causes of this unprecedented series of wildfires. I hope this committee will see fit to act swiftly to approve it for consideration by people senate. So mister chairman and members, thank you so much. Thank you, senator feinstein. Senator rich. Thank you mister chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to make an Opening Statement. First of all, i want to say i appreciate the subcommittee chairmen and subcommittee Ranking Member holding this hearing today. I was home in idaho this past weekend and i will be back again this weekend. It seems all anyone can talk about is the smoke in the air and the wildfires causing it. What is unusual this time is its not our smoke. Its coming from my good friends in the south and from the west. But we are living with it and its a big deal in idaho. Vicky and i are braving for the brave firefighters and fire crews battling these deadly blazes and the communities throughout idaho and the west who are worried about losing their homes and widely possessions. We do have some fires burning in idaho. They are not as extensive as they have been in years past. Certainly, our hearts go out to the people in california and the other states that are having these larger fires. It seems like it rotates from year to year. When youre its washington and when youre its idaho and when years oregon and when youre its california. But it does seem to cycle around the states. Right now, there are more than a dozen fires burning thousands of acres throughout idaho. The vast majority of which are located on federal lands. Years of insufficient Forest Management have turned the west into a tinderbox. There are many factors that make while powers spread. But regular fuel reduction is a critical and indisputable strategy to prevent wildfires of this magnitude and particularly once they start from spreading. If we leave our forests unmanaged and our range lands on graced, the health of the ecosystem deteriorates and their ability to host native plants and critical species diminishes. When fire comes, it burns. That is something that we can unquestionably improve. Im proud to cosponsored the emergency wildfire and Public Safety act and would like to thank my colleague senator daines and senator feinstein for their leadership in introducing it. This bill offers Common Sense Solutions to these common sense problems of improving our ability to reduce these fuels and improve our forest and protect communities in a productive and collaborative way. I want to thank everyone that is involved in this effort. It is certainly a common sense effort and something that we can do. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, senator risch. We will now turn to my cousin, senator udall. Chairman lee, thank you so much and Ranking Member wyden and members of the subcommittee. And thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of this 36 70. The scenic river act. I know you have 16 bills on the agenda today, so i will be brief. This bill is named for dutch salmon, a good friend of mine, a rider, a conservation advocate, who began championing the gila river in the 19 eighties. After moving into southwestern new mexico and falling in love with the gila while hiking and canoeing it and its headwaters in arizona. Dutch was not the only one. The residents of southwest new mexico and visitors from all around the country and the world love the gila as well. And senator heinrich and i have both spent time on the river and in the wilderness. Our nations first wilderness. Weve been working on this legislation for two years and introduced this bill at the urging of new mexicans from all walks of life who also value this jewel of the southwest. Senator heinrich and i authentic the unusual step of bolstering a discussion draft of the legislation earlier this year. We revised to reflect immunity concerns. To those in support of the bill, we thank you. To those who still question the legislation, please know we heard you and made every attempt to address the concerns, all the concerns, that we took. The greater gila water shield, including the San Francisco river and other main tributaries, comprises the largest remaining network of naturally flowing rivers segments in the southwest of the United States. It provides unique and memorable outdoor experiences for families, spectacular scenery and wildlife habitat, and the foundation of a Rural Economy that includes farming, grazing and recreation. Designating the river as wild and scenic will protect abundant Cultural Resources and the integrity of this important water source. And existing traditional uses. To make sure future generations can enjoy the gila, like we and so many generations of new mexicans have, we must take action to protect it. Designating portions of the gila river and its watershed as scenic will may as well as support the booming recreational industry in that part of the state in the agricultural economies that rely on it. Our bill takes pains to preserve both the river itself and existing uses along the river. This is a theme we heard it consistently as we worked on the legislation. For the past two years, our staff have met with local officials, soil and Water Conservation districts, farmers and ranchers, Property Owners and folks who just like to spend time on the river. This took them to living rooms, conference rooms, city halls and the spur of the moment meetings with maps spread out on the tail gates of pick ups. This bill provides involuntary condemnation of private property, which has never been a part of the wild and Scenic Rivers act. And preserves, not only private Property Rights but, also, water rights, existing irrigation, and water delivery operations, grazing permits, public lands access, and future Restoration Projects. Thank you for including this important bill in todays hearing. I look forward to working with you to protect this critical watershed and the people whose lives and livelihoods depend upon it. Thank you so much. Thank you, senator udall. Senator whitehouse. Thank you, chairman lee, and thank you, also, to Ranking Member wyden for the subcommittee hearing. Thank you to Ranking Member manchin and to our chairman, senator murkowski, for their help with our bipartisan offshore act. And finally, i want to thank senator cassidy, my partner in this bipartisan effort for his important work. And also, thank you, too, chairman wicker, for joining as a cosponsor. The reason for this bill is that coastal communities are getting walloped by frequent and severe storms, sea level rise, shifting fisheries, and all manner of conservation and infrastructure challenges. We see it, right now, in the gulf coast. Walloped by sally. Yet, per capita, coastal states receive substantially less federal preparedness and resiliency funding than inland states. Two examples. The land and Water Conservation fund. And the army corpss flood and coastal storm damage Reduction Fund. For lwcf, over the past decade, for every dollar that the fund sent to inland states, per capita, coastal states got just 40 cents. And much of that, in the coastal states, was for inland and upland projects, not for their coasts. Over at the army corps, the socalled flood and coastal storm damage Reduction Fund has varied, over the past ten years, between 19 times and 120 times more spent, annually, on inland work than on coastal work. 120 to 1 for a fund whose name has coastal in it. This persistent imbalance overlooks massive risks coastal communities, infrastructures, and economies now face. Just look atwith estimates between 238 and 507 billion worth. And, of course, the economic hits will come way sooner than the submergence. Economic hits will hit mortgage and insurance markets, freddy warns, with quote economic losses and social disruption likely to be greater in total than those experienced in the housing crisis and great recession. And around the country, moodies is revisiting coastal Municipal Bonds for this risk. So its real. And the imbalance is real. And our bill helps remedy the imbalance with revenues from offshore wind and Renewable Energy development to support coastal states, provide restill yen restill yen restill resiliency. Let me request several documents be admitted as exhibits for the record, including support letters. Without objection. I close by thanking the members of this committee and subcommittee for their support and help. And i look forward to working with you to advance this bipartisan measure. Thank you, chairman. Thank you, senator whitehouse. Heard from two additional members who would like to before we introduce the witnesses. So well go next to senator danes. And then, senator mcsally, who is joining us via Internet Connection. Senator danes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I, first, want to begin by thanking the brave firefighters, first responders, across the west for their ongoing heroism and sacrifice in battling the Deadly Wildfires ravaging the west. Just last week, i visited the bridger foothills fire. Near my hometown of bozeman. Destroyed 28 homes. I want to thank the county sheriff and others for doing their part to ensure that no lives were lost during this tragedy. Their work saved lives. And before i begin, id ask that we might take a moment of silence in honor and remembrance of the over 35 individuals who have lost their lives this season. Including montanas tom duffey and sarah matson and the grieving American Families who have lost loved ones, their homes, and their livelihoods in the wildfires, if youd join me. Thank you. As we speak here, today, hundreds of thousands of families have fled their homes as wildfires ravage over 6 million acres across the west. Weve lost 35 lives, over 4,000 homes, and theres no end in sight. The impact these fires have in Rural Communities will be felt for years to come. Including our economy and our outdoor way of life. And the severity and intensity of wildfires were witnessing can be attributed to multiple factors, including both a decline in Forest Management and warming temperatures. And while we can debate the extent to which different factors contribute to the wildfire activity, i think we can all agree the need for a bold, broad, bipartisan solution. The bill ive introduced with senator feinstein offers 53 pages worth of such solutions. We worked together on this for a year. And i want to thank senator feinstein for collaborating on this bipartisan bill. And shes been a Strong Partner on forestry issues. This bill has bipartisan support, both in the senate and the house. And in the support of broad array of stakeholders, including many conservation and environmental groups. Should come as no surprise as it takes critical steps to restoring the health of our forest and restore goodpaying timber jobs. Id like to ask unanimous consent, mr. Chairman, to submit for the record 23 letters of support. Without objection. And i want to go ahead and debunk a couple myths i have heard regarding this bipartisan bill. Some have said this undermines environmental law and judicial review. That couldnt be further from the truth. This bipartisan bill uses timetested approaches to expedite and streamline critical projects, without circumventing public input or environmental review. Bipartisan policies enacted in 2014 and 2018 serve as the foundation for these provisions, proving it is truly a bipartisan compromise. Were at a critical time. The west is burning. People are dying. The smoke literally is starting to cover our country. And our way of life, as we know it, is in danger. We cant run to our corners. We cant continue to fall to partisan politics. Its a time to come together, democrats and republicans, and pass meaningful forestry reform. And this bipartisan bill does just that. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Senator mcsally. Thank you, chairman lee. Ranking member wyden. Appreciate you convening this hearing on many important bill related to public lands, including my bill, s 3427. Modernizing access to our public lands act. And s 4475, the lapoz solar energy and job creation act which i am leading with my colleague, senator cinema. Both of these bills will ensure our public lands work better for our constituents but because of the severity of the wildfires raging across the west, i do want to focus some of my time on this important topic as well. Arizona currently has 227 personnel deployed across the west helping our neighbors battle the flames. The wildfire crisis is real and does require bold action from congress to reduce hazardous fuels and improve the health of our forests. If we are serious about reducing the intensity and the severity of these wildfires, we need to focus on policies that actually improve the health of our forests. Thats exactly what i have done since ive been in the senate. Last year, i introduced the accelerating Forest Restoration act with senator cinema to streamline the Overly Burdensome Regulations in the southwest. And this will jump start the Forest Restoration initiative in arizona. While im glad to see the Forest Service adopt many of the proposals in my bill, more work needs to be done to make it a success and reduce the wildfire risk. Unfortunately, it has continued to encounter delay after delay. And even though this is a singlemost important project underway to reduce risk of wildfire in arizona. The Forest Service recently pushed back the phase two even further. This is unacceptable. We cannot afford to delay active forest Management Practices any longer. We must get projects out of the planning room and into the forest, immediately. One of the Biggest Challenges weve had to Forest Restoration in arizona is the expanse of harvesting and removing branches, slash, and undergrowth from the forest. Thats why, this week, i am introducing my bill the Forest Health and Biomass Energy act. By reducing cost and regulatory barriers to clearing out dangerous overgrowth and utilizing that material for Carbon Neutral biomass electricity. Included in the emergency wildfire and Public Safety act, which i have cosponsored with senator danes and were considering in the hearing today. Together, our bills offer practical, costeffective solutions, to target the real, root causes of these catastrophic wildfires while also supporting lowcarbon energy. Again, appreciate you having this hearing today. I look forward to moving these bills forward as well and Bipartisan Solutions to address the raging forest fires around the west and better management of our forest, as quickly as possible. Thanks so much, mr. Chairman. Thank you, very much, senator mcsally. Okay. Its now time for us to hear from our witnesses. Who i will, briefly, introduce here in a moment. You may notice some members will be filing in and out. Theyve called a vote. Members will be going in and out to vote. And i will have to do that, at one point or another. But in the meantime, ill introduce the witnesses. We have two witnesses joining us, in person, today. The first is chris french, the deputy chief of the u. S. Forest service. Welcome, sir. And the second is amanda castor, the acting assistant secretary for lands and minerals at the u. S. Department of the interior. Welcome, ms. Castor. Joining us, virtually, are three witnesses. Mr. Mike dunn, a representative of the base and Stewardship Council in oregon here to testify on s 2828. The empowerment for the act. Board member of the Heritage Waters Coalition new mexico who will testify on s 3670. The mh dutch salmon greater hela wild and scenic river act. And ms. Jamie crockett, who will testify on s 3670, the mh dutch salmon greater hela wild and scenic river act. At the end of the witness testimony Opening Statements, members will be able to ask questions, alternating between republicans and democrats. Your full, written testimony will be made part of the official hearing record. Please, keep your statements to five minutes so that we can have time for questions. Weve, also, agreed to receive a written Opening Statement from senator cassidy, which will be admitted into the record, without objection. Look forward to hearing from your testimony. Mr. French, we will start with you. Then, well proceed through each of the five witnesses, as you were introduced. Thank you, mr. French. Thank you, chairman lee, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you, today. I offer the u. S. Department of agriculture view on the bills that are before you and my complete testimony detailing the administrations position on each bill as included in the written record. Before i begin, id like to thank the subcommittee and all the senators for their support during this tragic fire season. With more than 31,000 interagency firefighters actively engaged, the entire interagency wildland fire effort is stretched to its limits. And the loss of life and homes and lasting effects to our communities, air quality, and the nations Natural Resources, continues an increasing trend that is unacceptable. The Forest Service is committed to keeping our communities and our firefighters safe. As for our firefighters, ive been in their shoes. I know their dedication, their bravery, and their professional integrity is second to none. Many lost their own homes, as they helped to save the communities that theyre apart of. So as we work, without pause, with our many partners, to assist communities impacted by these fires, we are committed. Through shared stewardship to change the trend that is coming in the years to come. Were working with states, tribes, communities, and partners. We know that we can only change this by collaboratively working across boundaries, on all lands, to address our current wildfire reality. We have a nearly yearround season with everincreasing catastrophic outcomes. We thank you for your continued focus and help. The authorities and capacity youve given us has helped us achieve our highest wildfire fuel reduction and prevention actions in more than 20 years. Were working really hard, but we know its not nearly enough. The scale of our action must match of the scale of our problem. In places like california, it means treating two to three times more acres per year than our current efforts. This is our great challenge and it affects all aspects of delivering our conservation mission. It dominates our work. We know a new paradigm has emerged. We know that we must scale our solutions, our resources, capacity, and resolve, to create solutions that match these fires. We look forward to your ideas and thinking of how to get through that. In relation to the bills at hand, the Big Bear Land Exchange act would require a portion of the pc to be relocated and Land Exchange for a bio mass utilization facility. We support the bills goals and we look forward to working with the sponsor as it goes forward. The black foot clearwater stewardship act directs the secretary of agriculture to develop a landscape assessment, restoration needs and the scale of Restoration Projects on the National Forest. It establishes to recreation Management Areas and an additional acres as wilderness. We share senator tester is commitment to collaboration. We do have certain concerns. We would like to work with the subcommittee and the senator as the bill progresses. It would this ignite a peeking utah following the offense during the Bald Mountain fire. The m. H. Dutch salmon greater gila wild and scenic river act, designates part of the gila system and transfers lands to the monument. Committed to collaborating during our process to find river sections for designation. We look forward that. The Douglas County economic and the Douglas County Economic Development and conservation act requires directed special use permits of National Forest system lands and Douglas County. We look forward to working with the bills sponsor and the committee to address some of the technical issues as it moves forward. The gold star the gold star families parks pass act would make federal recreation lands past free for gold star families. We support this bill to respect the ultimate sacrifice about were gold star families by allowing them to connect to public lands. We share the interest in recognizing their service and sacrifice that the bill is designed to honor. The modernizing access to our public land act directs the for service to jointly develop and adopt inter Agency Standards for Outdoor Recreation and data. We support the goals of this bill and look forward to working with the committee. And finally, the emergency wildfire and Public Safety act is a comprehensive bill designed to increase wildfire preparedness, post fire response through a variety of measures, including a new statutory category allowing for the export of an processed timber from dead and dying trees, and establishing a new landscape Level Program for management activities designed to improve forest conditions. We very much appreciate senator feinstein and senator daines attention to these important issues, and we support the intent and the goals of the bill. Our written testimony offers several comments and observations meant to improve the language of the bill and we look forward to working with the subcommittee as this moves forward. Thank you for your time today. That concludes my remarks and i look forward to answering your questions. Thank you mister french. Miss castor. Chairman, Ranking Member and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I am amanda castor, the acting Deputy Assistant secretary for land and Minerals Management at the department of the interior. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the legislation before us today. Fs1 a. D. Seems to streamline permitting process where the federal government has less than a 50 mineral interest under nonfederal surface ownership. We support these efforts to streamline administrative processes and reduce unnecessary procedural reviews. As 12 95, the federal land Asset Inventory reform act, directed the department to develop a multipurpose register of all federal Real Property assets and eliminate duplicative data systems across the federal government. The department is working to update and modernize our Land Ownership Information Systems and we support the provisions of the bill that align with those efforts. , s. 2828 the Empowerment Community act, allows for Adaptive Management of certain federal lands in oregon. It would also designate 1. 1 million acres of wilderness and approximately 15 miles of the river as scenic. The department has concerns that designating wilderness areas outside of existing double u. S. May not be the most appropriate Land Management tool and that some of the provisions of the bill would launch potentially duplicative planning efforts. As 28 90, the Douglas County Economic Development and conservation act, provides authorizes public land sales and conveyance in nevada and provides for the transfer of public lands to be held in trust for the local tribe. The bill also designates 12,000 acres of wilderness. We are committed to ensuring Public Access in support the goals of s. 2890 that align with this important priority. The Department Remains concerned with the broad scope of the proposed land disposals, which are inconsistent with the administrations position in opposition of the wholesale disposal of lands. As 30 to 41 proposes to amend public law to establish the wilderness in the rio grande in new mexico. The department is concerned that the wilderness designation in the bill may be inconsistent with traditional uses such as grazing and collection of firewood and pinion nuts that are import to local communities. The department supports the goals of s. 3366, gold star families parks pass act, this administration supports our military veterans and gold star families. The department believes free access to National Parks and other federal lands should be extended to all veterans and gold star families. My father is a veteran and i think all those who have sacrificed for our country. Yesterday for 27, the modernizing access to our public land act, would direct the department, before service and army corps to collaborate on the collection, sharing and publication of public lands recreation data. We believe that this bill has the potential to address some longstanding challenges surrounding Public Access and data management. We look forward to working with the sponsoring the committee to address a number of technical issues. S. 3485, the offshore act, would amend the National Oceans and Coastal Security act and the outer Continental Shelf lands act to expand revenue sharing for offshore wind. The administration has made it a priority to boost Domestic Energy production while providing responsible stewardship of the environment and ensuring that the taxpayers receive a fair from the Safe Development of these public resources. S. 4431, the emergency wildfire and Public Safety act of 2020, six to reduce wildfire risk and improve force management by establishing wildfire mitigation projects, providing expedited review of certain fieldwork projects, promoting the development and use of biomass, and easing certain timber export restrictions. The department supports the goals of the bill and would like to work with the sponsors on certain critical improvements including language to ensure it receives the same active management and wildfire reduction authorities that are provided to the for service through the bill. Finally, the solar energy and job creation act, s. 4475, would directly department to convey approximately 3800 acres of public lands to arizona with the intention of expanding a solar energy project. The department is focused on restoring collaboration and coordination with local communities to achieve this priority. We support the goals of the bill that align with these priorities. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Im happy to answer any questions. Thank you ms. Castor. Okay, im going to run out and vote, but i want to set this in motion and keep it in motion. We will now hear from our three witnesses in the order which they were introduced. Mr. Dunn, mr. Forward, and then miss croc it. One of you can follow right after the other. Hopefully i will be back by the time you are finished with those. I figure that is less inhumane than pausing the hearing and making you come back. I will be back momentarily. Mr. Dunn. Thank you very much mister chairman. Members of the committee, my name is mark dunn and i represent the ally he stewardship basin coalition. Im here to discussesque 20 8 28. It is comprised of hundreds, ranchers, recreational lists and local Business Owners and oregon. The county, as senator wyden, said is the poorest county in oregon in terms of Economic Activity. 72 of the area is federal public land. Aquaculture is the sustaining enterprise in the region, with cattle ranching as the significant contributor to this activity. These family based ranching operations are sustained through the use of permitted cattle grazing on public lands. For many years, this area has been embroiled in controversy as groups with different points of view regarding how federal public land should be used became focused on the Owyhee Canyon lands. Lawsuits and delays inostly important management issues. Most recently, those efforts revolved around an attempt to ask the president to create a National Monument encompassing most of the public land in the county. All bs was formed to prevent a monument being designated. Once that perceived threat was temporarily removed, the Coalition Members decided that a proactive approach was better suited for the Long Term Benefit of the public federal land and also the community. We believe that a collaborative approach based on the health of the land and Traditional Land uses could create an environment where by a long term resolution to conflicts might be possible. In december of 2018, leadership from the owyhee stewardship basing coalition and i, met with senator wyden and his staff. At that meeting, we asked senator wyden if he would be willing to lead an effort to bring various parties together to find a solution. We made clear that enhancing land help was the focus and our goal. And we are very grateful to senator wyden and his staff are agreeing to take on this challenging issue. Throughout 2019, senator wyden and his staff regularly met with representatives from the Owyhee Basin Stewardship Coalition and environmental groups with an interest in the area. Their tireless efforts supported by senator merkley, is the reason this legislation is before you today. There are some areas in the bill where obsc a believes agreement was reached, but require more precise definition. In a perfect world, there are other language clarifications and enhancements that we would have preferred. Im happy to provide those to the committee separately. Let me proceed to summarize some of those specifics as follows. To start, over 2 million acres of public land in the county are designated as either current wilderness study areas or lands with wilderness characteristics. As you may know, they are managed as de facto wilderness. This legislation creates slightly more than 1 million acres of wilderness while releasing over 1 million acres back to multiple use. Obsc feels this release language needs to be clarified in the bill. To continue, there are incredibly valuable precedentsetting aspects of this bill which could be used as a model in other areas of the western United States. One of those is given that the health of the land was a driving factor of the negotiations, the use of Adaptive Management tools on all federal public land designated or with administrative overlays in the county is invaluable. That will not only allow but also require federal agencies to use best practices to maintain and improve land conditions. It will ensure seamless practices throughout the county in restoration and multiple use. Another precedentsetting aspect of the bill is a ceo committee as senator wyden calls it. This allows the local community as well as other interested parties an opportunity to help direct priorities and management objectives with a focus on what is best to maintain land health. Since Diverse Groups have a seat at the table, we would appreciate clarification providing additional oversight capabilities of the group. We would ask that this committee have authority and does not become simply another Advisory Committee that agencies can ignore. But also provides various needed drivers of new Economic Activity for the county. It strives to enhance protections for sensitive ecosystem areas and allow for better access for visitors, campers and sightseers were appropriate. We support those efforts. In conclusion, it was our members who derived their livelihood through these lands, who asked senator widen to undertake this process. We feel he and his staff have done an outstanding job and we strongly support their efforts and are very grateful to him. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and for your consideration of this bill which is critically important to all residents in the county. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Dunn. I know our colleagues are in the middle of rotating in and out for voting. So i thank witnesses for their indulgences. Subcommittee chairman lee, leader, senators, thank you for the privilege to speak to you today. Im haydn forward, a principle with the San Francisco soil and Water Conservation district. Thats the San Francisco river watershed in new mexico and not to be confused with that beautiful city in california. Im also speaking today on behalf of Heritage Waters Coalition of which im a board member and both agencies are in opposition of the dutch salmon bill s3670. I would like to point out that since our conception in june of this year, four short months, Heritage Waters Coalition has absolutely been magnetic. In our short existence, weve gained 3500 members with four local county commissions, five local governmental entities and 39 new Mexico Conservation districts all opposing s3670 and the wild and Scenic Rivers designation. The secret to our success is simple. We are balancing the scales and telling the risks that are associated with the wild and Scenic Rivers act and s3670. Unfortunately this legislation youre hearing today attempts to designate river segments where private lands and water developments lie within, above and below proposed river segments. Thats important. Im going to bring this up a number of times. Private property that is above and below designated river segments. These private properties have water diversions, crossings, rightofways, livestock use and other utilizations of these river segments that make them inherently incompatible with wild and Scenic Rivers act. I want you to consider for a moment a checkerboard pattern and this is established between the designated rivers and the private lands that im talking about above and below. You will have a designation of a river coming down, jumping over private property, designation river, leaping private property again and it almost reaches an absurdity. They have divided up small segments as small as 0. 02 of a mile, i have one segment that is 0. 1 of a mile. Its not in line with the spirit or the meaning of a freeflowing wild and scenic river. A little bit of history. In 2002, the gila National Forest plan recommended nine river segments as wild and scenic. All were within the designated wilderness areas. The legislation that youre looking at today has designated an additional 51 river segments that this is important that were deemed ineligible in 2002. The Diverse Group that was associated with the review of designations saw nothing outstandingly remarkable in these 52 river segments that are now being designated. So the rivers havent changed. Something else has changed here. The proposed legislation also ignores National Environmental protection act, nepa. Additionally, it ignores any evaluation of economic impacts. It ignores the Public Comments because none of the opposing Public Comments that were shared are reflected in this new legislation. So, it certainly is not taking into full consideration all the people that live and work along the river. So speaking of those people, the population, lets recognize for a minute the partnership that has lasted for years between the usda and the nrcs. These are farmers, ranchers, allotment holders who have spent inkind millions of dollars of money to do good conservation on the river. Section 7 of wild and Scenic Rivers act takes control of state and local government and overlays federal law. Meaning, all of the traditional Government Agencies that were doing good conservation on the river are now out and federal laws taking place. I will move along here quickly. The bill will no longer balance good conservation when water use within the gila watershed and it will move towards full protection of the river eliminating 134 years of Economic Growth and rights along the river. We need to understand that the secretary or custodian in charge will have the powers to allow for any conservation work to be done on the river. He will be using a written Management Plan that will be written to minimize the use of waters to the maximum extent. One more comment. Lets talk about jobs for just a moment. Some of our nations largest Mining Operations or organizations have operations in southwest new mexico. Grant county gdp 40 of their gdp is mining. These operations do indeed have deversions in the river. The permitting would be placed in the hands of the secretary in charge who would have the ability to stop maintenance on the diversion, shut down the mine and demolish 44 of grant countys economy. I think that would be absolutely devastating. Forgive me for going long and i will look forward to any questions. Thank you for your testimony. And now we would like to turn to Jamie Crocket, our last witness. Thank you for being here, virtually. Chairman lee, Ranking Member widen and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to to testify before you today in regard to s3670. As introduced by senator tom udall and cosponsored by senator martin heinrich, this legislation seeks to permanently protect 450 river miles of the most outstanding rivers in new mexico as wild and Scenic Rivers. My name is Jamie Crocket and i am a Property Owner in a Rural Community on the river in the middle of the Gila Wilderness where we run an outfitting business permitted by the u. S. Forest services. We lead boating trips throughout the forest for hunters, fishermen, horse back riders and birders. Our week long rafting expeditions go through the beautiful main canyon of the gila river in the Gila Wilderness. Weve been privileged to spend the last 15 years in these canyons. Its our home and livelihood. New mexicans travel great distances. Its where we connect with family and friends. Its where we escape the summer heat and raise our children to respect nature, god and each other. These values are our way of life and theyre the reason why i live here and its why this area is a destination. Tourism is the second largest industry in our state. Outdoor recreation is one of the Fastest Growing sectors here. Tourism in silver city is on the rise and i expect the wild and scenic designation will increase the draw to this area and will continue to sustain this growth in a healthy way that respects our local traditions. This bill is the result of a Grassroots Movement and nearly a decade of work from and by the people of my community to guarantee protections of these rivers, their values, their current uses and our traditional ways of life. The vast majority of residents in the gila Region Support wild and Scenic Rivers and i know this personally from doing Community Outreach and getting signatures from over 150 local businesses, attending meetings with our constituents and talking with my neighbors. As a community, we asked senator udall and senator heinrich to right this important bill for our river. Senator udall and senator heinrich took great care in taking multiple meetings with Community Members that represent a variety of opinions on the subject. I was present at one meeting where senator heinrich generously listened to stakeholders on all sides of the political spectrum including parties concerned about how this may affect their water rights and ranching traditions. I saw firsthand how our senators cared about those concerns and have done the work necessary to ensure that everyone involved has been acknowledged and accounted for in the text of the bill. This bill has received broad support from a wide variety of Community Organizations like the apache tribe and the council of governors. And the local towns have passed resolutions of support as has the grant county commission. Theres been formal support from sportsmen and womens organizations, veterans groups, faith leaders and civic groups. In the american west, we measure our wealth in water. While southwest new mexico isnt dominated by wealth in the traditional sense, were the heirs of an incredible fortune by way of this freeflowing gem. We carry the honor and burden of protecting the river and its tradition uses indefinitely through this important legislation. S3670 has been a communitydriven effort involving years of outreach and education among diverse interests and were thankful that the senators worked with us to introduce this legislation in the United States senate. On behalf of the many, many local area farmers, ranchers, hunters, anglers, private landowners, recreationists, Business Owners, tribes and elected officials, i wish to convey our collective view that it is vitally important to protect these critical watersheds and rivers by designating certain segments of the gila river for inclusion in the national and wild scenic river system. I encourage the committee to proceed with expedited consideration and approval of the greater gila and wild salmon act. Thanks you, this concludes my testimony and i would be happy to answer question. Thank you. You certainly have enticed me to look more into this legislation and want to visit the gila river area. Thank you for being part of this testimony today. Again, were waiting members to return from votes and fortunate for me, i was high on the list anyway so im going to ask my questions. Im going to start, if i could, with first a fire picture as i talk about our state. This is a picture from washington. But we are at over 600,000 acres burned with 300,000 of those acres burning in just one day. This isnt a new story to us. Weve been through this very intense fire years for several years in a row and as senator feinstein started talking about whats going on in california today, when people start saying, this is the biggest fire ever in the history of our state, thats where we were several years ago. Thats whats happening, record fire seasons. In response to these, we have passed new fire legislation and obviously trying to give the Forest Service and you, deputy french, the tools that you need to help fight the fires and one of the things that we did was give the tools of smoke forecasters. Why did we do this . We knew that the fire season was going to bring these very daunting situations. As you can see on this colorcoded map, we might want to bring it a tiny bit closer. These colors are showing us and this is the help of getting this forecast information that you can see these very deep colors of red and purple and very dark colors are showing that you either have a big part of sound and a big part of our state on into oregon and a little bit into idaho, either very basically either unhealthy, very unhealthy, or hazardous. Basically, all of this area there in the purplish color is basically unacceptable health risk with smoke. So i wanted to ask you deputy french, how has this helped us in understanding the risk of the fire season and giving us information with these forecasters to communicate to the public, and to the firefighting community, what we need to do to take care during this process . Thank you, senator. Its been a great help. The department of agriculture and the department of interior have been using many of the aspects that came out of the law to really focus on how we use technology differently. You talked about one. In terms of air quality, what sort of changes do we need to make in terms of movements of people, where do we need to put resources, those sorts of things. Weve also been working very much on groundbased Image Technology to understand where were seeing shifts and changes in fires and where to put resources associated with that. We have an rc26 aircraft that has a distributed realtime infrared capability that is from the 141st air refueling wing up on the Washington Air national guard. And thats been deployed in support of wild land fire operation to provide a number of these services were on track right now for awarding a contract for location services, wild land firefighters and were also using the some of the Technology Advances for our Smoke Jumpers to drop things into areas more precisely than weve done before and all of that has come out of the focus that came from the passage of that bill. Well, thats great to hear because we felt like we needed more data. What this really has done is help us with the information about the level of severity of the smoke, is what youre saying, and then helping us move the resources in the right places based on that information. And it helps us understand the effects as well. We saw the smoke in the air, but we didnt know where the intensity was and that sort of thing. So all around, it has helped us both in thinking about where we need to do preventative work and managing things. Where can we take this Going Forward . I certainly believe on the prescribed burns side. We were a fan of changing it and people said you cant change this from a seasonal perspective. People dont want to have smoke in march. Well i guarantee they rather have smoke in march instead of a whole week or months forecast smoke. So how can this now help us have a regional conversation about prescribed burn and things like the pine pilot that were basically more of a global discussion about how to use those tools. Yeah, thank you. So i think people are understanding that in these fire prone forests, that one of the main things that we need to do is part of our active management is bring in more prescribed fire. Reintroduce fire into these places. If we can have the Predictive Services to understand what the smoke impacts will be, we can educate folks, we can make changes to how were doing things and pick the right times of year to do it. Get that work done more effectively. Thats the part of it thats been most exciting. Thank you. So basically, youre saying Predictive Services like these that we put into previous fire bills, they can now help us target prescribed burns. And then to the Ranking Members comment about 5000 firefighters needed right now, do you agree with that number . Honestly, i dont know what the exact number would be. I can tell you that we have more than 31,000 firefighters deployed right now. Weve had a pretty sustained effort in the inter Agency Response through the entire year. Even with covid, we were managing that very well. This last these last weeks have really shown the stresses in the system though. However, i dont know the exact number. I see the chairman has returned. I appreciate it. I thank you for your testimony. I would say that i hope we will all look for more support of firefighting with the range protection organizations, with International Countries who have helped us, and we need to be aggressive about getting more resources. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, senator. Mr. French, in my Opening Statement i talked about the Bald Mountain fire that nearly reached the community of oak ridge city, utah. For the record, what do you think could have happened had the fire advanced just a few more miles . Had not been for a miracle mountain. I will be thoughtful in my response only because there is some ongoing litigation associated with that response. But as weve seen in many places, often the difference between catastrophic impacts to communities and a fire not having that, what can be based on very quick changes in weather events and other events and the potential is huge. We see that play out time after time in many of these fires. We can see singular things. It happened just last week where we had these wind events. Where suddenly something that appeared to be normal and something that appeared manageable under normal circumstances can absolutely change overnight and 1 million acres or burned within days. Thank you. I appreciate that. It really was an awful buyer and could have been so much worse. We are grateful that it turned out the way that it did. Ms. Kaster, i wanted to talk to you a little bit about s. 2828. The Community Empowerment for the owyhee fact. We would love to get some clarification on the lands intended for multiple use management under this bill. The bill, as i understand it, would designate about 1 million acres of wilderness while releasing another million acres that currently are managed as wilderness study areas and lands with wilderness characteristics. Tell us, what our lands with wilderness characteristics . So, senator, lands with wilderness characteristics are inventoried by the bureau of Land Management during the Land Use Planning process. Also, the resource Management Planning process. They will inventory those and then work through the public process to identify and determine how best to manage those characteristics. And if congress were to release these lands within characteristics under the bill, would they continue to be managed under the the blm resource Management Plans and potentially with wilderness character or some similar restriction. To the best of my knowledge, yes. It would be really contingent on the Land Use Planning process that the blm employs. The bill proposes we convert to blm grazing allotments into land held in trust by the secretary for the burns pie you tried. Is that right . Yes, to my knowledge. We understand the dccc currently holds the grazing permits to these allotments. Some leases to other ranchers in the area. Are there any land uses or access issues that arise in the conversion of these lands . Not that i am aware of, but i think one thing we would like to further explore is secretarial order three three seven three. It requires that the bureau of Land Management to assess recreational values. I think that would be a key thing to assess across the board with these actions proposed legislation. Thank you. I would appreciate anything you could do to help us look into that and help us understand that point. Weve been told by representative walden from oregon, oregons second congressional district, that some local ranchers and a sportsman may have some concerns about that provision. So i would love to find out more about that if you have anything. Mr. French, lets go back to you for a minute. The black foot clearwater stewardship act, like the bill we were discussing just a moment ago, the black put clearwater stewardship back is another bill that purports to split the baby, for lack of a better word, on wilderness for multiple use land. It would designate about 80,000 acres of wilderness in montanas National Forest while setting aside about 2300 acres for two recreation Management Areas intended to be of benefit to the areas snowmobile users. The Montana Snowmobile Association contacted the subcommittee to warn us that some of the lands in these recreation Management Areas have elevated the avalanche potential in the area. Is that something you can confirm or dispute . I cant confirm or dispute it. Weve heard the same information. Ive asked our folks in the area about whether or not there is an increased potential. When they basically said is any backcountry areas like that for snowmobiling, there is increased potential depending on difference notes. Okay, but they did not identify anything beyond that, anything specific to these circumstances . Not that i had in time for this hearing. Okay. Also, does this bill release any wilderness study areas . Now that im aware of. Okay. All right, we will ask some additional questions in any subsequent round. Next up to bat will be senator stabenow. Go ahead, stabenow senator. Thank you very much, mister chairman. Thank you to all our witnesses and of course the Ranking Member. Thank you for all of the legislation that is in front of the subcommittee. My heart goes out, like all of ours does, to those who are impacted. inaudible . We lost your audio feed. If you could push. Yes we have you back. Were glad to have you back. Okay, we appear to have an interrupted Internet Connection there. Okay, i can see her again. Hello . There we go. Okay, im sorry, mister chairman. Can you hear me . Yes, we can hear you intermittently. We can see you and we can hear a few words out of every sentence. Thats a good idea. The entire hearing, so im not sure what the problem is. Okay, senator stabenow. Senator cortez masto raised a good suggestion. Try turning your video feed off and lets try to do this through in audio connection only. Because right now we are getting only broken pieces of both your audio and video feed. Lets try that and see if that works. Hello . Okay, its better. We can hear you now. We dont see you, but senator cortez masto and her suggestion appears to have worked. All right. Thank you so much. Its interesting. Im sorry this is not a good connection. But as i was indicating, mr. Chairman, thank you to you in the Ranking Member. First, my heart goes out to everyone affected by the horrific fires. A huge thank you to all the firefighters and others who are really heroes in this battle. He was against the fires. I want to speak in part as the Ranking Member of the agriculture and nutrition and forestry committee, which is the other committee of jurisdiction. So any of these issues and thank you to the mr. French in the fire service and everyone who is working so hard. I think its important to step back a moment and realize that in congressional testimony, time anti mcgahn, experts really have been pointing to two things to address these fires. One, is whats happening on the Climate Crisis and the other is a lack of resources to manage and restore our forests. And these are key drivers of todays wild fire issues. So this is not about Environmental Protection laws. Its about resources, its about fire management. And thats why so many of us Work Together to broker the bipartisan Forest Service budget fix in 2018 to free up the necessary dollars to undertake sciencebased restoration of our forests. And so we freed up about a little over a half a billion dollars that we thought was going to go back into funding prescribed burns, mr. Chairman, as you talked about, which are possible now if the resources are there and so, the coordination. But instead, what we saw, instead of the savings being used to decrease wildlife risks, the Trump Administration cut the Forest Service budget. And every single submission they have made to congress, which is deeply concerning to me, and its also important to really focus on the fact that if we had the resources, the fact is that its important to emphasize that the Forest Service already has over 30 categorical exclusions from the National Environmental protection act at their disposal including three new major exclusions that we authorized in the last six years from the 2014 farm bill, 2018 omni bus package, and the 2018 farm bill. So im truly concerned and dont understand why the administration is not fully implementing the new restoration tools weve already given them. And so just one example and then a question to mr. French. In the 2018 farm bill we reauthorized and doubled the funding for the popular collaborative forest landscape restoration program, the Forest Services own website says this program is proven to be an effective tool for improving forest conditions. And yet the administration has proposed to zero out the program in every single one of its budgets. Mr. French, again, thank you for your service and everyone who you represent. And we all agree we need to do more on Forest Management. After working on these issues for a lot of years and trying to give you more tools to do that, why not fund and prioritize the programs congress has already given you to do what needs to be done, what i know you want to do . Thank you, senator. So the wild life funding was a game changer for the agency and it went into effect this year. The biggest benefit right now that were seeing is were not having to do those midyear transfers to help pay for our suppression activities. Thats given a lot more consistency to our ability to do work. We have emphasized the use of the tools that congress has given us including those ces that you talked about. We had a concerted National Effort across the agency to use those in a broad way. The average Environmental Assessment we do in the agency takes for a fuels project takes somewhere around, you know, 685 days whereas when we went to one of the new authorities and ces thatcongress gave us, its around 243 days. I think the Biggest Issue were running into now is a matter of scale. The types of fires were seeing, these megafires in the hundreds of thousands of acres, the types of active management we need to do on the ground, the tools we have need to match the scales of the fires that were seeing. And so were weve really dedicated tremendous amount of the agency just to this work. But thats the challenge that were facing right now. Were really grateful to the efficiencies that congress has given us. I think its why youre seeing the highest outputs that weve been able to achieve. I just know that we need to do a lot more. Just one follow up, mr. Chairman, and, mr. French, when you talk about scaling it up, is this an issue of providing more resources, funding to be able to do that . In order to do more acres we need to have the resources that meet those acres. It takes wildlife surveys, vegetation surveys, the contracts to do the fuels work or the timber removal work. Its all of the above. And so it we use every resource we have right now towards that priority. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Im sorry for the technical difficulties. No worries at all. It was worth the wait. We have senator cortes well have to refer to her as the tech expert on the committee. Senator, youre next. Thank you. Let me have bounce back here to s2890. This is the Douglas County bill. Thank you both. I know youve been working with us and i appreciate theres still some things we have to work through. But if i could start with you, you made a comment that theres many provisions within the bill that you support but there is a concern about the transfer of public land that doesnt correct me if im wrong, but you said that doesnt comport with the administrations position on wholesale disposal of lands. Is that right . Thats correct. And what does that mean, and who are you referring to when you talk about the administration . Senator, im referring to the president and the secretary. But that said, you know, we would be interested in working with you on this legislation. We appreciate the fact that Douglas County has unique recreational opportunities and one of the secretarys first orders he signed contemplates land tenure actions and recreational opportunities. And so we would like to ensure as the legislation moves forward that those key recreational opportunities and access are not impacted moving forward. Okay. And absolutely want to talk with you. I think in question here is just about 7,000 acres of blm managed land which theyre looking for 5,000 of that to be in their control for Flood Control management and the other 2,000 would be used for recreation purposes. Are you hearing Something Different than that . I believe and you can correct me, senator, that the conveyance would be best part of an rnpp. And typically the acreage is not that high. We can work with you on additional options for how best to facilitate how to deal with that language moving forward. Thank you. I appreciate that. Mr. French, let me ask you this, in your testimony, in your notes you have concern with a particular parcel that has been identified for potential disposal that is adjacent to the interagency work center and that is an administrative site that holds the firefighter barracks, a Management Office and other facilities. I understand that the Forest Service completed a review for additional administrative facilities at that site and the parcel of interest back in 2010. And so i guess my question to you is, are you looking to then move forward with development on that site or can you give me an update so that i can relay to Douglas Countys intent is. Its not that were opposed to that one. I think as you know, we have a huge deferred maintenance backlog in the agency and we have strategies in place of how to reduce that. And so the forest supervisor out there has worked hard to try to figure out how do you consolidate some of that. That was part of that broader plan to use that site to consolidate other units to save the agency money over time. We certainly would work with the county and the community on finding alternatives to that, but, you know, if thats the way it goes, we just want to make clear that weve put considerable investment into yeah, and thats what i am hearing. Correct me if im wrong, but youve got to make priority decisions based on Funding Resources and this hasnt been at the top, is that right . Yeah. Now that weve passed legislation to address the backlog and appropriately fund it, hopefully this goes back to the priority list to address this parcel and what youre going to do with it, is that possible . Yeah, fair point. I think youre referring to the Great American outdoors act and what one of the things the Great American outdoors act does for us is allow us to use our other appropriations that would be used for things like this and addressing some of those issues. Fair enough. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Really appreciate it. Mr. French, i as im sure youre aware, theres some as weve discussed today, some really ugly fires raging in the west due in part to poor federal Land Management. I notice that s1765 contains provisions that can be read to prohibit Timber Harvesting in certain areas. You think that without search harvesting and maintenance that these recreation areas might actually have a tendency to become more prone to catastrophic wild fire. I know thats not the intent. I dont think anyone would want to do something that leaves something leaves these lands subeject to catastrophic wild fire, but could it have that effect . Any time that tools are taken out of our toolbox for addressing our ability for reducing wildfire risk, it makes it harder to deal with. I always appreciate when we create areas or designate areas that have outcomebased type standards and we can use the different tools to meet those outcomes. But i think, you know, thats one of the one of your Lessons Learned over years is that as were trying to figure out how to actually reduce that risk, whether its through active management of prescribed fire, reducing fuels, that we need every tool in the toolbox, especially because when youre dealing with fuels reduction, theres not a market for it, most of the time. Youre usually paying it in other ways, maybe through commercial timber. Okay. Typically that should be something that we should look out for, though, right . If we are any time we take a parcel of federal land and we tell the government we tell the Land Management agencies that they cant harvest or we take off the table certain activities that would involve either creating fire breaks, removing snags or otherwise, that does almost inevitably increase the wildfire risk, right . Our position for years on all designated areas is to allow the full set of tools for accomplishing the goals of what that designated area was meant to be. Okay. Thank you. Thats helpful. Lets get back to this will be for mr. Forward. Talking about s3670, this legislation proposes to designate more than 30 segments of Forest Service land in new mexico under the wild and Scenic Rivers act totaling more 440 miles. Designations dont just affect rivers and streams, they have wilderness restrictions from the high watermark. How will this bill affect water access and not just water rights for irrigation and for livestock growers . Thank you for the question. The primary concern is that dozens of diversions that are currently on the San Francisco and the gila river do require maintenance from time to time. With the overlay of federal law and a custodian that is in charge of permitting, he will have ever right based on the river Management Plan to deny permits to maintain diversions. And he may have many Different Reasons to deny permits. Who knows . Silt perhaps going down the water or it may change the visual of an outstanding remarkable feature. So i could effectively shut down irrigation and in fact forced abandonment of water rights if they cannot continue to maintain their diversions. Go ahead. Mr. Dunn, if this legislation is enacted, do you think theres still a threat of monuments being designated . Obviously that would depend on the president and whoever that might be at the time. I think its unlikely that having gone through this process and negotiated an agreement with all sides that a monument would be declared. I think they would give us an opportunity to make sure that this works and thats certainly what were hoping for. In your testimony you mentioned that s2828 may include lands that may not be appropriate for wilderness designation. Can you expand on that a little bit . Happy to. Senator lee, i think you captured it well in your questions to mr. French. When you look at parcels of land and then decide how to manage them and kind of remove that multiple use overlay, that does have an impact on the agency and so we would like to ensure that that is the best use of the land and given the ongoing fire activity out west, you know, the bureau of Land Management, the department of the interior would like all of its multiple use Resources Available to be able to combat fire. Thank you. Senator hoeven, youre next. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. Also thanks to Ranking Member widen and to the witnesses for being here. Before the committee is s180, legislation ive been working on for a number of years and i appreciate chairman lee joining me as an original cosponsor of the legislation. It would streamline and approve the permitting process for Energy Development by lifting the requirement for a federal permit when less than 50 of the sub Surface Minerals are owned by the federal government and theres no surface landowner ship. I appreciate chairman lee having this on the docket today and am hopeful we can advance the bill which i think is important for a continued Energy Development for our country. Let me start with you, ms. Caster. Appreciate the testimony on the legislation. Thank you for that. And my question is, would you agree that this practice of getting that the requirement now that we get multiple overlapping permits, especially when blm owns a minority interest in the mineral acres, its an overly burdensome process. We believe that streamlining the permitting process has a less than 50 interest reduces unnecessary procedural reviews which allows to address the backlog at a faster rate. Under my legislation, Energy Developers would still be subject to all state laws, regulations and guidance governing Energy Activity in each relevant jurisdiction. Do you believe that our legislation would ensure adequate environmental and safety review . Generally, yes, senator. Typically spacing unit is 1280 acres. In north dakota there are almost 3,000 spacing units with a small percentage of federal minerals. That means over 3 million acres are not being developed because they contain these federal minerals. Would you agree that my legislation would be a benefit to the taxpayer by making more areas available to lease and opening new energy Development Opportunities . Yes, we agree, senator. All right. Deputy chief french, would you agree that redundancies in permitting which do not lead to greater safety are hindering the multiple use mission of the Forest Service of its forest lands and grasslands . Yes, we have a number of cases where we can see where that redundancy is affecting our efficiency. Okay. And will you continue to engage with stakeholders in north dakota as well as my office as you move forward with your final Management Plan . We certainly will, senator. Okay. Again, i want to thank both of you and i want to thank the chairman and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing today. Thank you so much. Thank you, senator. Thank you, senator hoeven. Ive got a few more questions, if thats all right. On agenda item 3366, the gold star families parks acts, i have a question for ms. Kaster and mr. French. Approximately how many families do you think would be eligible for passes under this legislation . Do you have any estimation on that . Senator, i do not. We would work with the relevant Government Agencies to determine that number. Okay. Now, under the under s3485 the offshore act, act, ms. Caster i see under the authorized uses of the bill that mitigation to fish and wild Life Resources is addressed. Are you concerned that offshore wind leases poses substantial harm to state resources . Senator, i would need to take that question back to the bureau of oceanic management. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, i would appreciate any insight you might have on that. Mr. French, as to agenda item or senate bill 4431, emergency wild fire and Public Safety act of 2020, this legislation includes an exemption for the state of california from the prohibition on the export of unprocessed timber of dead and dying trees. Can you tell me why this prohibition exists in the legislation and why we would consider exempting california from it . Well, i think thats a question for the authors. But i can talk about the situation generally. The only way that we can export dead, dying trees or logs from National Forests is to make a determination theyre in excess of domestic capacity. And that is generally a very hard thing to do. It has been a discussion for years in areas with large dead and dying trees like california, like we see in other areas that right now they dont get utilized because they dont have value, yet there are markets that have developed, especially in asia, where those could be yacht utilized. And i think thats whats driving the intent because those could be utilized. And i think thats whats driving the intent because right now we dont have the markets for those dead standing trees out there. Theyre not being purchased right now. And not in all areas. It just depends on where you are. Its really driven by the market forces. Okay. So, with but im not sure im understanding how that makes how that i know this isnt your legislation so ive got to phrase this the right way. Is there anything youre aware of that makes california truly unique in that regard. Fw. The sheer number of dead dying trees you see in the sierras is around 150 million right now. The other thing i would add is the time frame it takes us to make a determination for export, youve usually lost the value in those trees by the time we do that rule making. It requires a rule making. So, this would change that. I do think it could certainly be looked at in other areas that have a similar situation of california, if thats the question youre trying to get at. Right. Okay. Should we care about the destination of that material . In other words, when were talking about the prohibition against the export of unprocessed timber, should that matter to us as a congress . I think it depends on the lens that youre looking at. And i think this is worth a discussion. If no ones buying it and its creating a fuels and fire issue, then i think its worth the debate. Right. Its not as if were concerned about it contaminating someone elses you are know, becoming an Invasive Species or Something Like that. No. And there are very strong safeguards in place for how we manage the export. We can manage. And there are certain species we export right now, and there are strong safeguards in place that manage for that. Right. So, this restriction, under existing law, isnt about that . Its just about a requirement thats in place yes. So that you have to get this approval before you export as a condition for exporting. Yeah, for the majority of species, especially those in the sierras in california, as an example, if we were to make that determination, which weve looked at a number of times, by the time you do it, the time frames for the value that might even be there for an expert market are usually lost. Thank you. Senator danes. Thanks chairman lee. I want to talk about timber jobs for a moment. When i was growing up in montana, there were 31 31 saw mills. Today in montana, thats dwindled down to 7. What was once a Major Economic driver in montana is now struggling to survive. Its devastating Rural Communities and the management of our forests. Commercial timber often provides the economic means to accomplish fuels treatment, restoration and salvage work and stewardship projects like those that are streamlined and prioritized in my bill. Mr. French, can you speak to the Important Role the Timber Companies play in completing work on the ground, and why does it critically bring these timber jobs back to montana . Its critical. If you think about the comments that senator mcsally said earlier about her focus on us forthright in arizona, one of the big challenges we have in arizona to deal with those conditions is that weve lost most of the Forest Products infrastructure. Where we lose that infrastructure, we lose great ability for dealing with the situation. Where we still have it, were able to make progress. Its critical for our ability to prepare forests for reintroduction to fire. Its critical for thinning the forests so that we have reduced fire. And its critical in supporting our rural economies. Thanks mr. French. I want to shift gears and talk about the blackfoot clear water stewardship act. First of all, i want to commend the proponents of the blackfoot clear water stewardship act for their great collaborative efforts over the years. Covid19 has brought to life the importance of Public Access as more families are treated in the great outdoors, including ours. This highlights the need to weigh and land manage lt policy decisions can be challenging and divisive. Weve worked on them over many years in montana to find a place we can all land here in agreement, in the spirit of collaboration. And the management of the black blackfoot watershed is no different. I would like to ask consent to enter into the record the letters of support and the letters of opposition ive received in the last year. Without objection. Proponents have stated it will enhance timber production in the area. What change in timber production has resulted or results from this proposal . From my understanding, senator, the agreed upon collaborative approaches to restoration will increase. The forests are already on a pathway to increase. One of the outcomes of that should increase timber production. And do you believe that this wilderness designation would in any way increase the risk for wild fire for surrounding communities . Well, we manage wild fire differently in wilderness. We use different techniques. We use low impact techniques. If the fire is starting to threaten the community, we can change, and well go to a much more direct harder Fire Suppression activity. So, thats the way i would answer is that fires and wilderness are managed differently if tler threatening communities, then were going to change our suppression tactics to prevent that threat. In your written testimony, you speak to potential challenges accessing the recreation areas. Do you anticipate challenges to recreation as a result of this bill . From the folks that ive talked with, i think those are those are issues that we would like to work with the committee on to resolve some of those issues that weve heard about that access. Okay. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks, senator danes. Thanks to all of our witnesses for being here. This has been a fantastic hearing and been very informative. And i especially appreciate your patience with us while were running in and out for votes. We do Pay Attention while we do Pay Attention while were here, most of the time at least. And even when were not, it establishes a record that we can then review later. Itll be impossible for us to get the information that we need without hearings like this one, even though its frustrating at times when weve got to vote in between. The hearing in this committee the record for the hearing of this committee will be left open for a period of two weeks for anyone who wants to supplement the record, and we will stand adjourned. Thank you. Weeknights this month were featuring american programs, and whats available every on cspan 3. Tonight a look on this cspan a storage society, founded in 1974, to collect and preserve this year the highest. Court weve been inning and evening of there, courts with yale law professor justin driver, and the southern manifesto, a document written by congressional members. Who approach the Supreme Courts 1954, brown versus education borders. Segregated schools are unconstitutional, beginning at 8 pm eastern watch tonight, enjoy American History tv. This week and every weekend, on cspan 3. In 1966, a group of segregationist in Congress Issue the southern manifesto, which called the resistance in the desegregation ordered by the Supreme Court and brown versus the education. Up next on American History tv, and efforts to resist civil rights in the 19 fifties and sixties. Good evening. Im Vice President of the Supreme Court historical