Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jehovahs Witnesses On Mandatory Flag Salute 20240712

Cspan 3, created by americas table Television Companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. More now on the Supreme Court case brought by jehovahs witnesses to overturn a West Virginia line the 1940s requiring students to salute the u. S. Flag. You are in for a treat. As the cofounder of the Jackson Center we are thrilled to have this opportunity to commemorate one of Justice Jacksons foremost opinions, if not his number one. West virginia versus barnett. We have some of the individual that we will be hearing to just recap to 2002, i believe, i tracked down murray and Lillian Barnett and had a chance down in charleston area, i didnt know as was happening, but all of a sudden this guy where the camcorder track two down and we had a chance to chat. And you are gracious enough to put up with me. Some of the interviews you just saw, in 2006 we had a chance to bring the barracks disturbs here. And together with our friends at cspan, filmed a presentation with professor bear it, Robert Jackson biographer, in the cork for stone during the barn in place. A few years ago i had the privilege to gather here, you saw some cliffs now, to with judith, and to interview Lillian Gobitas and that was a thrill for us at the Jackson Center. And here we are, today, with an opportunity to revisit this special historical Creative Time which resulted in a case which has 75 years from today, it has tremendous legacy aspects constitutional jurisprudence extraordinaire. Let me introduce them while i have the chance, im gonna dive right into it. As it has been mentioned, to my immediate left, do this gobitas, the daughter of Lillian Gobitas. Who was the stage manager, by the way, when phil and i were down in atlanta doing the interviews. Next to her, i am thrilled to introduce louise blanton, a member of the jehovahs witnesses, who at age 91 if i can be so bold, you look terrific. And i should not have disclosed, diet i might be in trouble now. But she lived, it she lived it from literally is a member of the jehovahs witnesses when the gobitas case came down. Having to go to a Kingdom School and being there for over two and a half years. And ending when the barnett case was decided. Into her left, is murray barnett, one of those two barnett sisters who were a part of the West Virginia versus barnett. So im just going to sashay over the hearing here. And we will public chance to chat a little bit and get the story from those who lived it. And there is a reason for this order here, good bite is to barnett, we have been saying that in this wonderful presentation of proceeded. This from a practical perspective, we talked about jehovahs witnesses, was that part of your mom and brothers world or was that something that their parents heard of . Originally, and my mom side of the family, they were methodists, and on my grandpa side was catholic. So this came about from their parents. And they started reading it, my grandfather would go into the literally came home, and i would say guess what i learned today and he got really intrigued by what he felt was really the truth. So it got down that way. At what point, did your mother ever mention when she got the word as of how they might react to the pledge of allegiance that was prevalent in all Public Schools . She really, you know, mentioned the concern that it was gonna be that everything changed. How whole world changed once the decision came down. And once she took her stand she knew that everything would change into how she viewed live and how life would be her. And in school at the time, they were expelled. How did her classmates treat her . They turn their back on her for the most part. There was a few that were so loyal to her, but for the most part they turned their back and turned against her. They threw puddles at her. Whatever they could do. And one went from being one of the most popular girls in in school to being one of the most heated one. How did that affect her sense of humor and her fate . It made her faith even stronger, because she knew she had to rehigh rely on jehovah more than anything else. It shows you what your priority is in life and who you are worshiping. And where your strength comes from. So it takes away from the circumstances that youre going through and it gives you strength. Louise, you are new jersey, talk a little bit about your familys life bat into jehovah witnesses. My family started studying the bible with jehovahs witnesses in 1938. My father, the son of a methodist minister, objected strenuously to the teachings originally, because he thought he knew the bible from into in. But, over period of just a month or so, he began to see that there was so much in the bible he did not understand. And he could learn from this study. So the family started studying. From 1938 until 1939 we increased in our knowledge of the bible and of what jehovahs witnesses stand for. When i got baptized, in 1939, shortly thereafter i decided that i was going to make jehovah the got of the bible, my god, and i was going to live by his standards. I was 13 and i was not their normal 13, because i was the oldest girl in the family of ten, and i had a lot of responsibility. So when my parents saw that i was serious about what i had learned, they let me get baptized. So as a member of the faith, and also being of age to be in in the Public School system, when did the flag salute become an issue in your life . Shortly after i got baptized, and i had begun to reevaluate things that the bible sets forth in the standard for us. My parents were giving us different discussions about bible characters. And one of those incidences we were discussing daniel and his three companions. And from that i drew the conclusion that i had to make a choice to. And i chose to no longer salute the flag because to me it was like bowing down to an image or a representation of the government other than gods government. So this is part of exit is,. True, thats a part of it. And as you demonstrated, at what point was there an awesome moment where you had the clash that began every day with the salute to pledge allegiance, at what point did you choose not to salute . Yes. To tell the truth, that morning i was a nervous wreck. I didnt know exactly how the class would react because i had always been careful of my conduct, my parents demanded it. But, when i did stand that day, and not put my hand over my heart, the teacher immediately stop the program and told me that i had not gotten into the right position. So, they started over again, and digested there. And then she told me, out. Out of the class. So my brother and i, who were in the same grade, went outside into the hole, where we waited until the class was finished with the exercise. She came out right after that and took us to the principles office, and he was not nearly as pleasant as she was. Now, were you expelled . Yes. That day. He gave us one more opportunity, he said you go back in the class, and salute the flag, and this is the end of it. But when i told him i couldnt do that he said then you will be expelled. So he gave me a note, my brother and i give gave us notes to take home that they were demanding that our parents attend a meeting with the school board. And i think that was a week later, we had a meeting with the school board, at which time the assistant to to mr. Carr lengthen, bill jackson, met with us and help us in the procedure to explain our position. And what was the decision of the school board . That we would be expelled immediately. And what did you do for education . That was a difficult time because, i think i mentioned before how much i loved school, school was right for me. And because i was interested in learning your things i felt crushed but i could no longer go to school. But, when our society, the white Church Society learned of our situation, they sent help, legal help, and they told us every day go to school, because the school board had said if we were not going to school the parents would be punished, and we would be put in reform schools. That really frightened us. What time period was, this louise . This was 1940. And it was probably close to the end of the school term. So at that point, 1940, towards the end of the school there had been a decision is decided by the Supreme Court relating to lillians mother and uncle, were you aware of that gobitas decision . Very much. Our whole family was following the case. And like the gobitas, we were shocked. It caused jehovahs witnesses across the country to be amazed that such a thing would happen. But, our choice had been made. We continue to be loyal to our faith, and our desire to please our creator. And so, we were willing to accept the consequences. The consequences were the creation of Kingdom School. Eventually. Until that time, we had to go to school every morning, and be expelled, every day from the classroom. Gosh. In order that we would not be accused of being. So that was not very pleasant because we took the school bus to school, and on the school boss they would start hitting us on the back of the head, calling us the names of every description. And immediately after we went into the other school bus, on the school ground, before you could even get to the class, they would gang up on us and constantly throw sticks and stones, and sometimes rocks. This is when the bayous has been decided, you had been expelled from school, got to go in every day, expelled so, that your parents were not arrested for being having truant. In West Virginia, marie, what was going on in your world . Maybe i should back up to say, was your family raised as part of a jehovahs witness . What was the entry point into their fate . My parents started studying what was a baby. And my dad, and his family came in at the same time, about 1933, 34. So you grew up in that environment . Yes. And what was going on, because you are going into a Public School on slip hill great goal, is that what is called . Yes. So when you walked into a school at the time, was there a mandatory flag salute, in West Virginia . In West Virginia it did not become a problem until after the war started in 41. And after that, it began to require that the flight be a salute in the schools. And we went to school it was in the spring because probably february march they were one day they were doing the doing the flag salute, flag salute and my sister and i my sister and i stood stood up up and we, but we did not do the flag could do the flag salute, and the teacher was leaving the salute. Room and talk to the principal. So he asked if we would come out of the room, and we had explain to him, why we didnt. And it wasnt very pleased with us he, was kind of upset, and we said well if youre not going to salute the flag then you have to go home, you can attend school. Like louise, we went to school every morning and after the flag Salute Program was over, what we had to go home. That went on for several weeks. Talk about the administration of the West Virginia school board. Obviously, there was a legal aspect to all of this. Did you see your parents engaged with lawyers or lawyers provided to them . Yes, there was a local lawyer. He was not favorable to our beliefs. He took over the case. The lawyers got into it. Im sure they confirmed with rather covington. They finally confirmed to us dont go back to school. You dont have to go back anymore. After that, they sent a truant officer to our home wondering why we werent in school. My mother of course said, you will not let her go to school. My dad had to appear in a court and put up bond to keep from going to jail because they did take him to court for it. They went to Federal District court at that time. We learned a bit about it today where, that which occurred in good biden, lead to a lot of persecutions which louis louise and your mother felt. It kind of works its way to 1942 where you are expelled and truant officers come knocking on your door and your dad has to post bail, but how are you treated . In the area we lived in, it was kind of a rural area, the children were not cruel to us. They were curious. They asked questions. We explained to them our stand, but they were not cruel to us. I had some cousins who lived in different areas were beaten up and people were really cruel to them. But we were very fortunate in that respect, that the children were not cruel to the point that they wanted to be mean to us or anything. Just curious. Were you aware of the fact gobitis case . I was not aware. Did your father talk about it . If he did, i do not remember. They probably did because they were aware of what was going on, but in my memory i dont remember them talking about it. But evidently, they told us what we should do because when the time came, we knew what we were supposed to do. We were taught what our stand was and what we were supposed to say. It worked its way up to a decision by the board of education. It said you are expelled. It then worked its way into the Federal District court system and you actually won. Yes. In the courts of West Virginia, we did win. They said it was okay, we could go to school. In fact, we did start back school the next fall. Teachers werent real pleased with us, but they could not do anything about it because the courts said you can go to school, and we did. So the school board of education had an opinion which is contrary to what the Federal District court said. Then the board of education kept moving itself up thinking, probably with some reason, that there was a precedents precedent. Gobitis. That they would probably win the day. Do you recall the circumstances under which you learned of the Supreme Court decision . For not really. I just know that i can remember them talking about it. That we had one in the courts and from now on there would be no question that we can go to school. I dont remember being a big production at that time, except they were pleased, of course, that the courts had settled in our favor. When you went back to school under the pure Supreme Court order, did the students treat you any differently . Did you sense any of that . No. The school we went to, it was very calm. I dont remember any of them really. Even talking to us about that. By being in West Virginia, the courts had settled in our favor and the schools have been informed of that. We werent treated badly, no. So your mother. We talked about that time period, 1940 win the gobitis decision until 1943. What was her sense of that . Did she have some optimism about what might occur . You recall her talking about that . It was more that she was doing it on a daytoday basis. Doing what they had to do to keep out of reform school, which is one of those great players they had. And to keep things in alliance as much as they could with what was going on and doing their part to keep the education going. At one point, that barnett decision finds its way into the Knowledge Base of your mother and uncle. What was their reaction . They were very happy to hear that. They were too old to try to go back to school at that point, but other kids were encouraged to go back. Some kids were accepted and some still werent. It was not completely in the hearts of the schools to welcome them with open arms just yet, but some of them were allowed to come back. Louise, in your world, gee, you spent two and a half world years in new jersey at a Kingdom School while all of this was percolating through the court system. What was life like in the Kingdom School . Well, it was sort of like paradise compared to what we had been through. It was challenging in the sense that we had to be away from home. It was a boarding school. Society had purchased or leased a hotel for the purpose of housing the students. Most of us lived some distance away. We were about 90 miles away. So my father would take us to school either sunday night or early monday morning and we would stay until the weekend. We during the course of the week, the curriculum was like most schools, with the exception, of course, that we didnt have the flag salute in the morning. We did have a reading of a bible text. On a daily basis, and a discussion of a particular verse of the bible. Also, during the morning, we talked about different bible texts that we were to memorize. It helped us to focus on the reason we were there and to build on our knowledge of our creator. Then at some point in 1943, june 14th, 1943 cars, the barnett decision. How did you learn about that . In school, we lit out a holler they could be heard across the county. We were so delighted. At the same time, shortly thereafter, it turned into groaning because a teacher told us this would be the last time we would be together in this school. Because now your free to go back to Public School where you can exemplify the life of christians before your fellow students. So you do go back to school, Public School. This would be in the fall of 1943. I personally didnt go back. I was 16. My parents allowed me to enter the fulltime service that i had already been participating in, and to take courses outside of the School System and finally pass a ged test in order to get a diploma. We saw in the play earlier today about some of the persecutions that jehovahs witnesses incurred because they were also registered as Conscientious Objectors during the time of the war. Clearly, this is the winds of war and wartime period. How did that impact your family . Pretty much. I had an older brother who was a draft age and had to serve time in prison for his conscientious objection. The brother next to him never had to go to prison, but he was brought before the board or court, in order to state his objection. He got a four amp classification because of his help. But my older brother did have to go. Let me ask a question. I dont know if youve been ever asked this, but billy, was he subjected to. What did he do . Im not aware what he did during that time. That has never come up. Just curious. We are here commemorating this 75th anniversary of the barnett case. There would not have been a barnett case if there had not been a gobitis case. As you sit here and listen to those presentations that have occurred, what is your sense of this . I love the fact that i just learned this weekend that my mom and maria got to meet each other as children. As 13 year olds. That we never knew and that just really pulled it all together for me. Ill have louise perhaps tell the story and then come back to you. The school in pennsylvania, the Kingdom School in pennsylvania, and the Kingdom School in lake would had the same principle. It was a brother from watchtower farms. His name was park hearst. Shortly after Kingdom School took off in jersey, he thought it would be nice for us to meet the students in the school in pennsylvania, which had been in session. So on that occasion i got a chance to meet lillian. Well, at that point, this wouldve been early forties, the gobitis case had already been decided. What did you think . Its kind of notable. It was very exciting to meet her. I felt like, well even now, i feel so privileged to be between these two sisters who actually had the front row so to speak in the battle. But i have benefited because they stood firm and im so happy today to have this opportunity to get to know these two sisters and her mother that i met on that one occasion. What is your sense of what is going on here today . Its just beautiful to have us up here and this many people in one room and this representation of this history. Its a beautiful experience. I never thought i would be part of it. Its a real privilege to be here. And it helped me a lot to know what my parents both went through. My father was in a concentration camp and my mother was going through this, so it helped me be strong when i had my own situations come up at school where i was beat up for being witness. They were just infuriated that i was different, that i was a witness. They flat out said it. What it was a way to build up my own courage for that. We are going to pause for a second. You just threw out the line, im not sure everyone is aware of, but that your father, being a jehovahs witness, was subjected to the persecutions in germany that that plate depicted. You want to give us a Readers Digest of that . He went to his very first door, hes not even baptized, and he was arrested at the first door. He was the youngest in the camp. He was between 20 and 21. He did not get to see his family for about ten years. I finally sat down with him one day and asked him how many times he had been put in jails or prisons or concentration camps and it was 11 times. He gave us the name of each one. He was wanted. His poster was in the post offices. He had to use disguises, fake names, because he was smuggling the witness literature in the underground efforts. He was in danger a lot. But he really felt like jehovah and his angels helped that work go on. There was a lot of real close calls, but the stories he discussed, he spoke of 70 different 75 different classes in atlanta. It gave him an opportunity to have a firsthand experience of what it was really like. This is a unique story because we read during world war ii a lot about the resistance of various nationals who resisted against the third right. In your case here, your dad was really doing preservation of the jehovahs witnesses faith through some underground publications, etc. Yes, he was. It was interesting that he wasnt always helped by fellow jehovahs witnesses. There was some who just simply hated hitler would take him in under great risk in their home and give him a place to sleep. Sometimes he would have to escape in the middle of the night if the ss came to the door. The amazing kindness is that people did provide in various towns that he did go to. What do you think the legacy of the barnett case is . I think its marvelous because it made such a huge impact on the judicial system. It impacted everyone in the united states. Its providing freedoms for all americans to practice their faith freely. We know that can change, but for now its something to enjoy in cherish. Louise, do you have a sense of the legacy of what you lift in between gobitis and barnett and what the legacy of that is . I feel very privileged. I never expected to be this old. But for the rest of my life, i have been impacted by the experience that i went through in my youth. It has helped me to rely more on the creator. To appreciate the value of prayer. And to know that when something is right and you choose that to be a part of your life, that your love for the creator and for other humans can be enhanced by sharing what you know with others. Its made a big impact on my life. There is no commemoration today if there wasnt a barnett case. What your dad went through precipitated in that case and West Virginia, we would not have the decision. We would not have the words of Robert Jackson. So i will let you have the final word, marie, as to a sense of the legacy of your namesake case. Of course, im very proud that i was able to become. That i was able to stand up and answer the calls of the flag salute. I was taught that from youth on of course. It has given me a lot of privileges over the years. Ive had contact with different ones who have wanted to know the story. They have called and asked questions. Its given me an opportunity to give a witness to many people. Ive been asked, like this is the second time that ive come here and its been such a privilege, and im just proud that i was able to stand up for my beliefs and for the rights and help the rights of others as well. To be able to stand up also. Im not very articulate in speaking, but im just overwhelmed how much this has meant to me and how much it has meant to everyone, all the children over the years that have not had to fight the fight that we did. Then i was able to help them in some way. Wow, ladies and gentlemen, from gobitis two barnett. We applause up next, a conversation on how the Supreme Court addressed free speech cases during world war i. The Supreme Court Historical Society hosted this event. Im pleased to welcome you to this evenings program, which is the fourth and final lecture in the societies leon silverman lecture series