Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Hearing On Federal Law Enforcement Cameras 20240712

So ordered. I ask unanimous consent that representatives join the hearing to ask questions of the witnesses. Hearing no objection there, so ordered. Without objection, the chair may also declare a recess subject to the call of the chair. As described in the notice of statements, documents or motions must be submitted to the repository at hnrc email. House. Gov. Members can be muted by staff only. Finally members or witnesses experiencing technical difficulties should let staff know immediately. [ inaudible ]. The Interiors Office issued a report about the policies that governor the use in the doi. They issued a draft policy. The Leadership Conference for civil and human rights and dozens of other organizations came together in 2015 to release basic civil rights principles. They turned those principles into eight criteria from which to evaluate policies. We measured the Department Interim policy against the criteria. The draft policy only fully met one of the eight criteria. Thats an 88 failure rate. 88 . The policy isnt publicly available. It doesnt limit biometric technologies, it doesnt prevent the officer from seeing video before writing a report on the incident. The policy says that bureaus should decide that. Creates an inconsistent set of basic protection that is will change depending on which Law Enforcement you run into. This is the part where i would tell you had the Bureau Policies stack up against the conferences criteria. But of the five major bureau Law Enforcement units, interior would only give us the policies for two. And one of those had significant redactions. While the interior met one of the eight criteria, the mark Service Rangers policy met two of the benchmarks. Interior briefed the Committee Twice over two years but has not been able to tell us how much the Body Camera Programs cost so that congress can fund them. They told us in 2018 that the inti interior project although they didnt tell us how long it would last, who was involved, or what it would cost. When we met with them two years later and asked for an update, they said, they had no idea what we were talking about. When we invited them to this hearing today, repeatedly, they refused to answer questions like these. They refused to even attend. Its infected way too Many Police Officers across the u. S. It appears to have affected the park police as well. It is a first step. This level of resistance of taking this only raises more questions about what they have to hide. As it has reminded us, it has consequences. Well recognize the Ranking Member gonzalez for their Opening Statement for her Opening Statement. I began my statement i would like to extend my deepest sympathies for the loss of your son and i think youre here today to discuss the use of cameras by Law Enforcement officers and this is an important topic and one that deserves robust discussion. I want to thank you for joining us today and i look forward to your thoughts on this and other factors that should be considered prior to enacting such a requirement. Body cameras have the potential to be a useful tool as several witnesses noted. They provide benefits for Law Enforcement officer and is the public. While these benefits are indicated of the policies they have, youre right in your testimony when you say, and i quote, the data is in the details. The nature and the scope of these policies that governor the cameras is critical to this programs success. While theres an initial positive reaction to the idea of implementing body cameras, we have a responsibility to discuss the policies to carry out these programs, the cost, what to purchase, and maintain them and the infrastructure and Technology Needs and the impact as well. In january of 2018, the office of Inspector General released a report that concluded that draft body warrant camera policy did not meet the industry standards that the Inspector General believed should be mandatory. The fish and Wildlife Services policy in may of 2019 seems to address many of the concerns noted in this report. Including an implementation of the Standard Operating Procedures for the storage of data and for the retention of records. As the interior department continues to evaluate the policies, i hope the industry standards and the perspective of Law Enforcement officers are taking into consideration as well only after policies have been established that comply with industry standards and address concerns about private for both officers and the public, should the department begin the process of implementing a Body Camera Program. After these plans have been certified, the next step is to lay the foundation for it. When analyzing the capacity required, we must look beyond the cost of purchasing the camera, the expenses to store the data, and the cost that would come up with complying requests to produce footage. These concerns were highlighted in the testimony when he noted that some parts may not have implemented Body Camera Programs because theyre not they do not have this report within the current budgets. Without the ability to financially support these tools and the costs associated with them, were setting up these programs to fail. It takes resources to ensure that our Law Enforcement officers can keep us safe and for them to stay safe in the process of doing their jobs with expenses associated with implementation of body cameras, i have to point out, the argument by some of our colleagues who want to institute this program while calling to defund the police, that is not a foundation that i will be comfortable with. The framework can be erected after we are confident. Once we can be sure theres a financial backing for a Body Camera Program, we have to inshe insure they comply with policies as well as availability of technology and infrastructure to store footage only with a Firm Foundation and support will the implementation of body camera requirement is going to be successful. Many Law Enforcement officers view body cameras as useful. In fact, mr. Coffmans testimony stated evidence has shown that body cameras can be an effective tool as protecting Law Enforcement officers and the individuals they interact with. However, their effectiveness will be severely limited if the policies guiding their views, financial requirements and support needs are not adequately discussed. Thats why an honest discussion today is so important and we have the opportunity to of the program and if implemented mindfully, Body Worn Cameras have the potential to benefit the community and our Law Enforcement officers. We owe it to the public and the brave men and women who serve our communities to have discussions around the realityirealities of the officers. With that, i yield back to the chairman. Thank you so much, representative. Now we will move to witness introductions and to introduce our first witness, i will yield to the gentle lady from virginia to introduce her constituent. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, for analollowing me t waive onto this committee. Just outside of washington, d. C. , in virginia with her husband james, shes the mother of two beautiful children. Unfortunately shes joining us today because shes part of a growing group of americans that she never wanted to be a part of and that is a mother whose unarmed son was killed by Law Enforcement. In her case, her son was shot and killed by United States park police 1,047 days ago. Thats almost three years. Since that time, their family has received no justice, no transparency, and no accountability in his death. Thank you for joining us today. Thank the gentle lady. Our next witnesses will be mr. Author agel who is the director of the criminal Justice Project and he was a public defender in washington, d. C. , for 19 years. Mr. Larry cosby is the president of the Law Enforcement association. Hes a retired special agent, a division of immigration and customs enforcement. Mr. Jim north rop is a council member. He served 24 years as Law Enforcement ranger. Jim retired in 2017 as the superintendent of the shnationa park. They must limit their oral statements to five minutes and their entire statement will appear in the hearing record. Before you begin, the timer will begin and turn orange when you have one minute remaining. Use the grid view so that you may pin the timer on the screen. After your testimony is complete, remember to mute yourself to avoid any inadvertent background noise and ill allow the entire panel to testify before questioning the witnesses. The chair now recognizes ms. Kelly gazar to testify. Thank you for your kind introduction and support. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. On september 4th we celebrated johns 25th birthday without his physical presence for the third year. He was born in the same hospital he died 25 years later. As a toddler, he was the cutest boy imaginable. He loved his microcars and legos. I will never forget the enjoy in his eyes when he got his first playstati playstation console when he was in fourth grade. He did not have a Football Players physique and was not born an athlete, but he loved the game and worked hard. He fell in love with the new England Patriots when they won the super bowl after 9 11. He earned a degree in accounting and joined his fathers Accounting Firm in virginia. Everything changed on november 17th, 2017. Two men in plain clothing knocks on our door, two detectives from the park police. They told us he was in a shootout. I did not believe them. He was antigun, antiviolence, and would not be involved in a shootout. They said they would meet us in the hospital. We never saw them again. When we got to the hospital, the doctor told us he was shot in the head multiple times. He would not survive. We learned we could not visit our son and his body was guarded by the park Police Officers. After pleading with the doctors, they let us visit bijan under the conditions that we could not approach his body, we could not touch him and we had a Police Officer present and there would be a park Police Officer present in the room to guard us. We learned that bijan was shot by the park police early the next day when we watched the coverage on the news and saw bijans car in a ditch on tv. The federal government has never explained to my family and the public why the park police murdered our son. The park police has not even started an internal investigation into digitbijans shooting. The officers were on paid leave for six months and have been back to work for years. The park police do not wear body cameras. If not for the Fairfax Police cameras, we would never know how our son was murdered. We would have never have seen the park police violate their own policies. My family, bijans friends and our community and the world would not have known the truth that these officers shot bijan ten times while he sat unarmed in his car. I would like to thank the Fairfax Police chief for releasing the tape. If not for his courage, these officers would have gotten away with their madeup false version of the events. I would also like to thank the congressman, congressman buyer, senators, warren and grassley for the support they have shown my family and pushing the park police for answers. About a month ago, u. S. Park police chief testified that his agency would not participate in body camera pilot. Why would they when they can literally get away with murder without them . My son bijan was a handsome, charming, caring, inclusive and most of all kindhearted young man. I still remember the sounds of bijan. Im proud to have had him for 25 years. Bijan was my best friend and teacher. Every time he would hear me complain or not at my best, he would say, mommy, youre better than that. It was humbling. And i was and i loved him for it. Even now, i use my words and choose my actions wanting to make him proud. I pray to bijan to help me be a better person and not sink into anger. He divers justice and transparency. Body cameras do one important job. One job. They give us the truth, not a version of an alternative truth. We are your eyes, we are your voice, we are your heart. We are bijan. I am forever bijan. Thank you. Thank you. The chair will recognize mr. Arthur to testify. Good morning. My name is arthur ago. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the use of body worn and dashboard cameras by the police. The Lawyers Committee has been a leader in the battle for equal rights since it was created in 1963 at the request of president kennedy to enlist the private legal bars leadership and resources in combatting discrimination. Promotes access to justice, and advances accountability and transparency within Police Departments. In the wake of the killings of george floyd, bijan, Breonna Taylor and other people of color, tens of millions of americans took to the streets to rise up against police abuse, violence and misconduct. We need transformative change to americas flawed system. Unlike a number of our state and local Law Enforcement departments, the department of the interiors Law Enforcement agencies have failed to implement many of the most basic reforms that increase accountability and transparency. One first step to transformative change is straightforward. Require that the Law Enforcement agencies deploy cameras and do so under a strict set of rules and policies around their use. With few other federal Law Enforcement agencies requiring officers to record what they do while on duty, the Department Also has the chance to lead the way across the federal government and to set an example for other federal agencies to follow. As you have heard, one of those agencies, the u. S. Park police, is a case study in secrecy and impunity. She and her family should not have had to file a federal lawsuit to get the names of the two park officers who killed her son. Were it not for the police, neither the family, the department nor this subcommittee would have any recording of what those two officers did three years ago. Their reluctance to deploy cameras and fight against releasing even the most basic information to the family underscores the resistance to accountability and transparency. Change is needed. As i stated in my written testimony, the park police is not an isolated example. The tragedies that have occurred at the hands of several Law Enforcement officers under the department underscore the need for policies governing the use of cameras and recordings. If officers are not given clear orders on what they must record and if officers are not disciplined when they fail to follow those orders, Police Cameras fail in safeguarding accountability and transparency. In fact, one study shows that the use of force actually increased when officers were given discretion on what and when to record. But the principles will protect the integritity of the process. There must be a set of clear policies and rules that the public can review, there must be strict limits on discretion on when to record, there must be timely disclosure of camera footage when there are allegations of misconduct. These are only a few examples of policies on which is there is widespread consensus. The departments Law Enforcement agencies should not be a stain on the proud history and tradition of the department of the interior. These Law Enforcement agencies should not be lagging behind basic state and local police reforms. This is a commonsense reform. Law enforcement officers and the public alike support officers wearing Body Worn Cameras. Nothing will bring back bijan or take away the pain that his family continues to suffer but requiring body worn and dashboard cameras along with robust policies governing their use will be a first step toward bringing these agencies out of the past and making them more accountable and transparency to the communities theyre sworn to serve and protect. I urge the subcommittee and congress thank you. Thank you. The chair will recognize mr. Larry cosby for his testimony. Good afternoon. Members of the submit. My name is larry cosme. Im the president of the federal Law Enforcement officers association. Its the largest nonpartisan professional association representing the interest of the federal Law Enforcement officers in the United States. It has more than 29,000 members including those of the department of interior that are tasked with the Important Mission of protecting the National Treasurers and the millions of people who use them. For more than 27 years, i served as the federal Law Enforcement officer as a special agent within the department of Homeland Security, a division of the u. S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement at the department of Homeland Security. Over the course of my career, i held true to the oath of faithfully protecting and serving the American People as required by the constitution of the United States and the laws passed by congress. As a federal Law Enforcement officer my responsibilities and obligations were identical to those of the brave men and women that comprise the Law Enforcement components of the department of the interior. The department of interiors Law Enforcements are tasked with an enormous mission that includes sights and locations at some of the most valuable natural and man made resources and treasures. They are also targets of terrorist, international criminals, anarchists, arsonists, thieves, vandals and others that are focused on nefarious conduct and crime. Our nations heritage is tied to those National Treasures and it should be our nations priority and goal to protect them and ensure that we use them as theyre also protected. Unfortunately, over the past few months, the doi properties have not been spared on justice and fairness. Washington, d. C. , in particular, we have seen large scale protest and is riots that occur in doicontrolled property and experienced a heavy toll of the actions of these anarchists, rioters with destruction and devastation. We have seen memorials, buildings, parks, all occurring while the Law Enforcement officers in the department of interior had been tasked with managing and responding to the destruction. Which is in part for the reason of this hearing today. Inflammatory fivesecond videos, inaccurate news reports and false social media posts have been used over the past four months to taint Law Enforcement efforts of the federal Law Enforcement officers in america, including the department of interior. While those commentaries begin to dominate reporting on these incidents, they do not capture the officer experience. Its easy to scrutinize officers based on viral videos, but an officer must rely on whats in front of them in a splitsecond decision, based on training that maxim maximums Public Safety. It brings to this hearing the question of Body Worn Cameras as a Law Enforcement tool for Law Enforcement officers and the department of interior. As a general rule, some of this can be used as an effective tool to protect Law Enforcement officers and those individuals they interact with and it has evidentiary value. But one thing i want to highlight in my testimony is the communication issues that the department of interior has in its inadequate funding of the Communication System that should go hand and hand with Body Worn Cameras. We have to understand the Financial Impact on these agencies that will be enormous and maintaining these Body Worn Cameras and also the ability for these body worn families, the purchase of the hardware, the reviewing and the implementation of the policies that need to be consistent across the board with these Body Worn Cameras and maintaining these just like maintain vehicles that government and Law Enforcement use every day when theyre patrolling their areas of responsibilities. And also the training and potential Pilot Programs must first be funded and implemented prior to any component or department rolling out a servicewide Body Worn Camera policy. The disclosure of records must also be addressed and for the disclosure and the privacy of the individuals that are encountered during the Law Enforcement officers work. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today and im proud to represent the federal Law Enforcement officers of the United States. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Thank you so much. The chair will recognize mr. Jim northrop for his testimony. Chairman cox and members of the subcommittee, good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I serve on the executive council of the coalition to protect Americas National parks. Its a Nonprofit Organization composed of more than 1800 retired, former and current employees of the National Park service who collectively have nearly 40,000 years of experience in managing and protecting National Parks and National Park visitors. I personally worked for the National Park service for over 36 years, 24 of those years as a Law Enforcement commissioned ranger. I worked as a field ranger, supervised Law Enforcement commissioned rangers at National Parks and served as the chief ranger at Great Smoky Mountains park. I served as a park superintendent providing oversight to the resource and visitor protection programs including Law Enforcement that Picture Rocks shore. The coalition is supported within the department of the interior. We believe in rigorous professional standards for Law Enforcement standards and strongly support the use of incar and body camera systems by doi, Law Enforcement officers and park rangers. The coalition is also an advocate for periodic evaluation of programs against accepted professional standards by thirdparty accrediting organizations. As was mentioned earlier, there are two groups with responsibility for Law Enforcement functions within our National Parks. The u. S. Park police who serve primarily in the more urban parts of washington, d. C. , new york and san francisco. And u. S. National park rangers who are duty stationed in the other units of the National Park system. Both groups function as fully commissioned federal Law Enforcement officers. I think it would be of interest to the committee to know that incar Video Systems have been in use by park rangers in numerous parks for many years and more recently the use of body cameras by National Park rangers has also become more widespread. The National Park service has advised me that body cameras were in use by over 1,000 commissioned rangers in over 100 parks. Though not mandatory, the nps has been supportive of the use of incar and body camera systems by field rangers. They are strongly supported by management and field rangers. We do understand that based on a 2015 memorandum, the u. S. Park police do not use Body Worn Cameras at this time. I can tell you from my personal experience that while video footage of a Law Enforcement encounter never tells the entire story of an incident, it does provide critically Important Information about incidents where almost everyone is under a great deal of stress, there are conflicting perspectives, and memories are known to be faulty. I have personal used this information to review use of force incidents, arrest procedures and complaints filed against rangers. These systems promote professionalism and protect Law Enforcement officers. However, we agree with the 2018 Inspector Generals report that the dois policies on the use of this equipment needs to be more fully developed and be consistent with accepted professional standards. The departments policy on Law Enforcement has been silent on this issue for too long. Resulting in an individual bureaus each developing their own policies. We believe the igs report contains excellent recommendations for how this program should be implemented throughout the department. While we strongly support the use of this equipment, we also believe that this cannot be an Unfunded Mandate from congress. I can tell you that the parks that do not have an incar or Body Camera Program likely do not have one because they simply cant support one within current park budgets. If Congress Wants to see the doi use this equipment consistently throughout all of the bureaus, Congress Must provide the funding necessary to properly manage the program, purchase the equipment, provide the training, maintain the equipment, manage the data by accepted professional standards and effectively manage the freedom of information act requests and other issues release issues associated with the gathering of this information. The coalition to protect Americas National parks believes that the use of both incar and body cam systems by the department of interior Law Enforcement officers and park rangers is imperative to having a Law Enforcement program that is totally professional, transparent, accountable to and trusted by the public. Thank you for the opportunity to comment today and i would be happy to answer any questions you have from me. Thank you. Thank you so much. And exactly why were meeting here today. I want to thank the panel for their testimony and remind members of the committee that Committee Rule 3d imposes a fiveminute limit on questions. And the chair will now recognize members for any questions they may wish to ask the witnesses and well begin with myself. In your testimony you mentioned that the two u. S. Park police came to your door the night bijan was killed and told you that bijan had been in an quote unquote shootout and they would meet you at the hospital. Not only was there no shootout, since your son was completely unarmed, but the officers never met you or came to meet you at the hospital. And i think i speak for any reasonable person when i say that the u. S. Park Police Officers treatment toward you that night was abhorrent. Can you tell us a bit more about how they treated you after that night . Did they treat you with professionalism that you expect from a Law Enforcement unit and how did they treat how did the way that the park police treat you compare to the way that the Fairfax Police department treated you . Thank you for that question. Well, actually, that night when the detectives came to our house, as you mentioned, they told us bijan was in a shootout, which was a lie to begin with. They also told us that they would go back to the scene and they would meet us at the hospital to explain more. We never ever saw those two detectives again. In fact, we never met anyone from the park Police Expect the day that chief mcclain came to the waiting room to tell us three days later, hes turning over the case to the fbi. Thanks so much for that. Did the park police ever acknowledge that they killed your son . Is that something that is even in dispute . Well the park police has never acknowledged the fact that their officers shot and killed my son. They have never held a meeting, a press conference, anything to let my family or the public know of what happened to bijan, ever. That night in the hospital, when we got to the hospital, as i said in my Opening Statement, the doctor told us that bijan was being guarded and he was evidence, as they put it. And when we got really sad and started crying, they let us visit with bijan for ten minutes and as i mentioned, that bijan would be guarded. As far as treatment, i dont know what more could be crueller than that. So i would say the treatment was inhumane and awful. Thank you. And mr. Ago, youre a former public defender. In that capacity, did you have any experience or knowledge of the u. S. Park police and can you tell us me, what would be the perception among your former colleagues of the u. S. Park polices representation for fair and just policing. Thank you for your question, chairman cox. I was a public defender for close to 20 years in washington, d. C. As supervisor and ultimately the chief of the Trial Division of the Public Defenders Service and unfortunately the United States park police had by far the worst reputation of all of the Law Enforcement agencies that operated within the nations capital. They had the reputation of violating Constitutional Rights of people they arrested and an agency did not keep records, did not appear to follow guidelines, did not provide any records to the public for review. And that reputation was confirmed by the United States Attorneys Office who would frequently dismisses cases involving the United States park service. Thanks so much for that. With a reputation like that, would it be fair to say that focusing on better accountability and transparency at the park police would be a good place to start and certainly would wearing body cameras help with that . It is an absolutely necessary first step, chairman cox, that transparency and accountability begin at the United States park police and Body Worn Cameras and dashboard cameras are a first step. Thank you so much. With that, i will yield to my Ranking Member. Representative gonzalez colon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Before i begin, i need to send my deepest sympathies to m ms. Ghaisar. That should never happen. You never expect Law Enforcement officers to be involved in Something Like that. Im deeply sorry about it. I wa in your testimony you highlighted the Financial Impact of Body Worn Camera program as one of the issues that need to be discussed today. I would like to walk through some of the different cause associated with implementing a Body Worn Camera program. Im not too much related with the issue itself in terms of financially how much is the maintenance and how this can be used and supported. Lets begin with the initial cost. What is the typical range of costs of purchase a Body Worn Camera . It depends on the technology and the hardware. But the range goes from anywhere between 150 to about 1,500 dollars per hardware, per officer. Youre talking about 1,000 pieces of hardware multiplying it by that amount, depending on the quality of the camera itself. Besides the hardware, you have the software. Thats where it gets tricky. The Software Needs upgrades yearly and these companies, these private companies that sell these products have a licensing fee. The hardware applies for each item that you purchase, you have to buy the licensing and a Software Upgrades to keep up with the technology on this. And also it involves the training of the personnel and the deployment and how to download the data and how to separate it for evidentiary purposes. In that same sense, i know that many of the Law Enforcement officers at the department of interior work in different commissions, outdoor conditions, and others. Is the cost of this equipment different from my other Law Enforcement if they work in the department of interior or it should be the same . Actually, its higher because of the nature of the conditions that theyre working in. For example, fish and wildlife officers, they work in conditions, when the equipment becomes defective, you have to get it replaced. You have to factor in the replacement factor for the cost of each individual officer. And youre saying about the department of interior. Should every officer receive their own body camera . Whats the benefit of having a specific assigning body cameras to officers instead of having them changing whose officers are using them daily . I think its important for proper maintenance and also just like any tool that an officer gets issued or an Agency Within the department of interior, or a vehicle, per se. In your equipment, Law Enforcement officer and its the responsibility of that officer to make sure that they properly maintain and keep up with it. Question, once you purchase the camera and were talking about the maintenance, what are the costs expected to for the storage of all of the data that can be captured . Youre talking in the millions. You have to utilize a cloud. Besides the cloud, you have to have personnel that is required to save specific snippets of the footage that is obtained during an encounter. If were talking about millions of dollars in equipment, and the data storage and everything, but how can that happen if you defund the police . Absolutely not. Im supportive of it also, like you are. Im supportive of it, but if you want to defund the police and departments, its never going to get you anywhere in terms of Body Worn Cameras. The departments are not going to have the ability to purchase them. You said that in your testimony that you were generally supportive of the Body Worn Cameras. Is there any situation that you feel that Body Worn Camera may not be appropriate . Absolutely. We support as an association, we support for patrol officers on a daily routine basis and we should have Pilot Programs on capitol hill for Police Officers on capitol hill and the park police and any other department of interior officers that do basic patrols. Not for when theyre interviewing witnesses or confidential informants that ar. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you so much. And now well recognize the members in order of seniority and start with representative beyer from virginia. Chairman cox, thank you very much. I really want to thank you and Ranking Member gonzalezcalon for letting me be here and the chairman for having this hearing and staying on top of this issue for the last almost three years. I really want to thank kelly gasar and her husband, james. Thank you, kelly, for having courage, bravery, to be here. Were still seeking justice. You mentioned your temp eed the have not started a personal investigation into the shooting. For years weve asked in person and written communications for the department and chair to engage in a holistic review of the sentencing but never gotten a satisfactory answer. At first it was, no, the fbis got an investigation. We have to wait for them. After the fbi investigate we have to hear we got to wait until all the legal cases in court are resolved. Ms. Ghaisar, almost three years, another month. Is that justice . Hello. How are you . Well, no, this is not justice. Definitely we have not seen nor had any justice from park police in the past 2 1 2 years. I can tell you that they are the most secretive, they are the most guarded, they are the most Unbelievable Police unit ever and ive made it my life to Research Police brutality and Police Cameras and everything regarding police. The park police for whatever the reason have kept this under wraps. They even kept their officers names until almost a year and a half after bijan was shot and we have to get the names from a judge through our civil lawsuit, and thats shameful. Shameful. Thank you very much. Mr. Northup, mr. Cosro gerks, thank you for coming and talking about the needs of the program and its funding. Costs a lot of money in the months after bijans murder i met with then unobligated funds through the department. Weve worked every year since then to ensure they have the fund. I want to push back, the idea that democrats would defund the police is a fox news myth. Were not doing that at all. And this summer while i asked, so we worked and we got money in the House Appropriations budget just for this, so when i asked acting chief why the park service would not adopt body cameras, just after we pass the bill that addressed the funding, his answer was nothing. No answer. So mr. Ogo, you speak about the importance of accountable. Takes over half a year for the park service to respond to a simple letter from congresswoman norton, my offices. The park service, itself, backtracked from its own very commercial commitment to getting a Body Camera Program up and running. All legitimate excuses are addressed. Mr. Ago, were frustrated. How do we build accountability into a department that refuses to take any . Dont we need new leadership or take that more seriously . Thank you, congressman beyer. Thank you for your leadership on the issue of bodyworn cameras in the federal government and in particular in the federal police along with the leadership of congresswoman holmesnorton. Thank you both for that. Absolutely, the park police needs to be more accountable and more transparent. And the benefit of having this subcommittee hearing is so that these issues can be aired out and discussed and so the subcommittee canfuchbdi inin ii funding to the department of interior to create that accou accountability and transparency starting with, frankly, the leadership of the park police and the troubling history of acting chief monaghan. The answer to your question is, yes, congressman beyer. Thank you. Mr. Northup, i have a simple question for you. 36 years in the park service, 24 as a ranger. I like to brag. Im the only member of congress that was a park ranger. Only for a year less than a year. But so you had all those years as a Law Enforcement commission ranger. We have the two structures, do we need the standalone park police or shouldnt they be integrated into the park service with the rangers . There are distinctive roles for the u. S. Park police and park rangers. As i mentioned in my testimony the u. S. Park police are duty stationed primarily in urban parks. In washington, d. C. , san francisco, and new york. And they are focused almost exclusively, not exclusively, but almost exclusively, on performing Law Enforcement. National park rangers, on the other hand, have taken great pride for many years in being what i called a multiskilled specialists. They perform Law Enforcement. They are fully trained and eq p equipped and commissioned as Law Enforcement officers but also perform emergency medical services, search and rescue, land firefighting and perform a number of other Public Safety duties. In large part because of the environments in which the park police and park rangers work. The chair, now recognize, again, ms. Gonzalezcalon. Yes, i was asking mr. Cosroe a few moments ago about the cameras that can be used, to be there any limit of the use of these cameras interview with a potential witness, doing investigations. Can you provide a committee maybe not now because of limitations of time, but list of limitations that your organization is recommending. Enough to use these body cameras. When you have victims of crime, have a victim of a crime that could potentially become a confidential informant, even individuals that are associated with the crime, itself, be multiple conspirators that youre trying to elicit information. Its difficult if you have bodyworn cameras and trying to deal with that situation and make it capable where those individuals can cooperate with a Law Enforcement officer. Just so i have clear, how will worrying about a camera mamay impact an officers daytoday operations. Not only cost, but training that should be expected to be provided in conjunction with the use of the cameras. Can you explain the difference between them, you know, the daytoday and the training that need to be taken . Sure. The deployment of the cameras involves additional training, ongoing training. The technology changes. Ever evolving. Just like when you buy a computer. Its the same thing. Youre downloading software. You know, those individuals that are responsible for the software are maintaining these hardwares. Its expensive. Youre talking a very expensive product. If we believe its beneficial to the officer. Most the time it exonerates officers when theres false allegations made against officers. Im not saying i dont want to talk about the current matters before control of the committee, but in most cases it does help and its beneficial. Its a reoccurring cost for maintaining the training. Outfitting new officers with new cameras as the technology betters with time. Question i do have, in order to manage data you have for that footage, its likely that the department of interior may have to hire additional people to manage maintenance or the data of the absolutely. You would have to have i. T. Professionals that are experts in this area. To help the officers that are downloading this data. Youre talking thousands of officers in any particular department overall. It takes a lot of time and will take the officers away from technically officers download your data at the end of their shift. So what happens is that timeframe is time that the officers are not out in the field. Doing their jobs and areas of responsibility. So you do have to hire professionals that managediscov and foy a issues. That includes that person should be the one complying with the responsibility of the freedom of information act. That is correct. Expanded cost because of the freedom of information act request. Whether a specific case or number of cases, someone just foyas a specific period of time during where the data was captured. You have to hire a lot of people for that to maintain that. Question. You should be having experience because so many federal agencies already got the infrastructure and i want you to walk me through the Infrastructure Requirements are necessary to support successfully bodyworn camera. In other words, what kind of technology does the department need to have access to . Its different from department to department . That is correct. Its different depending on the department and its subcomponents and depending on the terrain that theyre working in. Like in the doe apartmeepartmen interior, like i talked about earlier, we have fish and wildlife officers in different terrain, a more rural terrain or u. S. Park Police Officers, commissioner northup talked about, in bigger cities in metropolitan settings, its different. Type of hardware utilized in those instances are different. The reoccurring training and also the collapse, also whats going to be released in terms of foya, you have to factor all that in. In terms of the total amount of money thats used to maintain this. In your testimony youre raising an issue of who was committeded to review, edit, and disclose the recordings captured on bodyworn cameras so in your opinion which officers should have access to footage and once it has been downloaded and stored . I think that the officer that actually has the bodyworn camera should have the ability to review the footage and what they should do is make the copy of the original footage, store that in the cloud and have those officers that have the original footage have the ability to look the at it like someone referred toer in their testimony earlier footage, writing an incident report. Ultimately, their supervisors are responsible for the original footage and thats the key to sa safeguard that original footage and segregate that. Thank you so much, chris cosme. And ms. Gonzalezcolon. The chair recognizes our colleague from the district, eleanor holmesnorton. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Can you hear me . We can. I want to thank you for holding this important hearing, allowing me to ask questions because, of course, im not a member of the committee or the subcommittee, but its very important for me to be here. I want to thank the chairman for his attention to this important all along. My questions are really for ms. Ghaisar. We have worked closely with this family which has courageously held together to make sure that justice is done for bijar. At press conferences, they have made sure that this matter was resolved. Congre congressman beyer and i have worked closely together after the tragic death and we were pleased that we were able to get dashboard and body cameras in the nowpending, in fact, its passed, the George Floyd Justice and policing act, and we have every reason to believe that that notion of body cameras and dashboard cameras will, in fact, be passed at some point because it has bipartisan support. Ms. Ghaisar, in light of the work being done on federal dashboard camera area, can you speak to the importance it has been to you, the importance it would be to you to have that legislation passed for these dashboard cameras, body cameras, in light of what your family has gone through . Thank you very much for that question. Its very important because have we not had the footage, the dashcdash camera of Police Officers, people would not have had the truth because even maintaining that video, watching that video, seeing it with our own eyes, the events that the park Police Officers have described does not show what our eyes see. That is how important the dashcam ras a s dash cameras are, body cameras there. Theres no amount of money that can explain why they cant be implemented. Im sure as federal officers, they have enough in the budget to cover for the simple body camera. A persons life and transparency is worth a lot more than weve been told in the last few, half an hour. I mean yes, indeed. I was surprised to hear so much discussion of cost at this hearing. Cost of what . Cost of a life . Exactly. Im sorry to interrupt you. I am appalled at the excuses that i hear. Fairfax county and other police units are able to afford body cameras and dash cameras and are our federal officers, park Police Officers, our federal of do not have the budget or time to implement this important transparency tool. The only reason is that they dont want to be transparent. Period. Stated it well. Of course, we have these cameras here and, thankfully, they have them in Fairfax County. Importantly, there is overwhelming overwhelming support by both police and members of the public. It should not be controversial and i think it is not controversial. Thats why we were pleased to get it in the policing act that has passed the house and will certain at some point will pass the senate. Ms. Ghaisar, given the tragic death of bijan, qucan you pleas say to us what the park Police Officers or the park police refusal to implement such a program has continued to impact your family . Their refuseal to implement remember, we were able to get a Pilot Program. Yeah. So if you could see some implementation of even a Pilot Program, what it would mean to you and your family . That would mean the park police is ready and willing to change their policies and be more transparent. The fact that she sat in that committee and refused to even participate in the pilot in the Pilot Program, everything there is to know, they dont want transparency. Thank you. Thank you so much, representative holmesnorton. And the chair is going to inspection, before we go back, i want to make sure all the m members have an opportunity to ask their questions. So the chairs now going to recognize our colleague from virginia, ms. Wexton. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to the panel for joining us here today. And mrs. Ghaisar, thank you so much for sharing bijans story with us. I know its very hard for you to keep going over this again and again and still have no closure. Now, for those of you who are not aware, im a former prosecutor. I was a criminal defense attorney. So i appreciate the roles that everybody plays in keeping our community safe. And mr. Ago, you know, my hats off to you because pds has a National Reputation of being one of the finest public defender agencies in the country so i know you have been there in the trenches fighting for peoples rights, and officer agent cosme and ranger northup, thank you, guys, so much for your service. Its really appreciate yeour remarks and what youve done for our country. Think its important to remember all those roles are important to keep our communities safe. Transparency and accountability are necessary for the public to trust Law Enforcement. Part of that, i would hope you agree, agent cosme, is that is that officers act under clearly defined general orders when it comes to use of force and pursuit policies. Would you agree . Yes. Okay. And do you agree body cameras when theyre used properly and work well protect only the civilians with whom officers interact but also the officers, themselves, is that correct . Yes, doi. Right. Thats by my experience in the jurisdictions where i practiced where we have dashboard camera z and things like that. Are you familiar with best practices and use of force and training policies . Absolutely. And have you had an opportunity to view Fairfax Countys dashboard footage of bijans killing . Yes, i have. Okay. So in that footage you observe that the officers got out of their cars with their guns drawn. Is that a best practice in a misdemeanor pursuit case . Typically typically its not an initial best practice. Okay. Especially where they have no evidence that the person may be armed or threatening to them, right . I dont want to comment specifically to bijans. I dont know the totality of the circumstances. I understand its a tragic loss for his mother and family. I sympathize with that. I dont know the totality of that. In a general rule if its a misdemeanor, thats not a best practice. Okay. Is it generally the best practice to approach the automobile and slam your firearm into one of the windows . I dont know the specifics of that case, but in general no one should be slamming their firearm into anything. I wasnt there at this specific sne incident. I dont want to comment specific to bijans incident. Im not fully aware of the whole incident other than reviewing the video. I understand. I understand. Generally to kick an automobile is also not best practice is my guess, is that correct . Typically not for a Law Enforcement officer, but i dont want to judge those officers. I was not there and i dont know the totality of the circumstances, but in general, thats not the rule. But might body cameras help capture footage that might explain why why an officer was doing these things . Yes, it can, but its not the final solution in itself, capturing the whole incident because sometimes you have different angles, like, for example, there have been some im not saying im sorry, im just going to reclaim my time because im running out. Yes. Are officers trained to shoot at vehicles that are driving aqu away from them . Every department has different policies and some policiy ies they could be permid to shoot at vehicles. Most policies, they dont. So most most policies, most general orders, prohibit driving db driving or shooting at vehicles that are moving away from them. Is that correct . Unless their live life is in danger or somebody elses life is in danger. Very good. Is it typical to separate suspects and witnesses before they speak to Law Enforcement . Separate them from one another, witnesses to the same incident . Yes. Typically. And the purpose of that is to make sure theyre not getting their stories straight or concocting a story . Correct. Are you aware the officers rode back to the station together after killing bijan . Im not aware of that. Okay. Are you aware that the park police changed its use of force and pursuit policy after bijans shooting . Im not aware of that, no. Okay. Is it typical for internal investigations to await the results of criminal investigations or can they be conducted concurrently, those internal investigations that the Law Enforcement agency typically, what happens is the criminal part, if theres a criminal investigation and nature, that goes first and then the internal disciplinary action goes afterwards. Historically, thats the way it works. Thank you. I see that my time has expired, mr. Chairman. So ill yield back at this time. We will have subsequent rounds. Certainly, there will be an opportunity. Really want to dig into this subject further. So the chair will now go back to my Ranking Member, representative gonzalezcolon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think its important to say that there should be no excuses at all for not using or implementing bodyworn cameras. I think we want to make that clear. Actually, i began my testimony saying i do support the bodyworn cameras and actually many federal officers will use it, but i do understand as well that we need to provide the resources so theres no option that the camera was not working or the footage was not available in the discovered process. Or the chain of evidence. So i just want to make that clear. I think thats the call for conspiracy. And actually, this is a hearing were having for implementing this idea that i support, again, so dont think that myself is against the issue. Actually, i deeply believe in this and thats the reason i do not believe in how are you going to be implementing these kind of equipment and this kind of bodyworn cameras if youre defeunding the resources for actually requiring this equipment then maintaining it . So, mr. Cosme, i do have another question. Related to the footage, you your testimony raised an interesting point about prosecutors and defense attorneys, organizations, bodyworn cameras. In what so can you provide along with how can we ensure accurate inspection of incident the custody of the chain of evidence . What happen ts is sometimes u have prosecutors, defense lawyers, that are representing their clients, obviously, requesting footage on certain incidents and that takes up time and its not just as easy as snapping your finger and going there, looking at thousands of hours of footage. And like, for example, on a federal prosecution level, when youre talking to an assistant u. S. Attorney trying to aer ascertain specific footage, you try to get to the right specific footage youre looking for. Its difficult to look at thousands of hours of footage and whos going to do that. Thats a manpower resource issue to the actual department, inforled by that department. Prosecutions. Even on a local level they have a set team of folks, now e from talking to my Law Enforcement partners on state and local level, they have dedicated folks that handle those requests. Another question, then, said in your testimony the Pilot Program should be implemented prior to have departmentwide rollout of department cameras. Why do we need a Pilot Program in the department of interior if you got other federal officers in all the departments that actually already got their cameras . It goes specific to that department. I think its important the stakeholders in that department which are the officers on the front lines that we represent have the ability to report back to their command staff and say, okay, this is working, this is not, this is whats beneficial in terms of what kind of quality of camera, hardware, the quality of the actual software, all that data is compiled during the Pilot Program, reported back to whoevers designated within their chain of command to report back to the Overall Department heads. The department of interiors actually got several which of them should be the one for a Pilot Program . If any . Which of them should be doing it . We could start with the u. S. Park police. Fish and wildlife have it and other subcomponents that have it. If you do it across the board, a little bit smaller than other departments like where i retired from the u. S. Department of Homeland Security which is a lot larger than department of interior. Depending on the cost i think it could be implemented in a couple subcomponents, you know, across the board. That way they can report back within six months of whats going on, you know, with that data and whats the hardware that they purchased initially . In my opinion, theres no money that can be changed for lives. So in that sense we need toneed promote the transparency but need to allocate funds for that. We as a committee look forward to implementing this idea which i support. We should look at the money as well so theres no option the agency is not complying with congress requirement. I do have several other questions, but i my time is going to expire, so i yield back, mr. Chairman. We have another round of questions. Me, representative beyer, holmesnorton, then representative. Mr. Cosme, over the zoom here, i can tell you you look just like Robert De Niro which might provide a bit of your testimony a little bit more gravitas. It i want to bring up a point b when i used to be a high school wrestler, my coach told me if youre not Getting Better every day, youre getting worse. Theres no saying the same, youre Getting Better or youre getting worse. And i dont want to i dont want to construe that the sentiment of requiring improvements to our police force is i dont support cops. Would that be something that you agree with . That we should be strivings toward perfection and to be Getting Better each and every day . I think its important to Getting Better every day. With you have to support the individual. Im also a wrestler, chairman cox. I see where youre going. I think its the support of the whole issue. I agree. Its funny, bill passed by the house, democrats supported communityoriented policing programs in the house funding bill so we want to be clear here is body cameras and dashboard cameras are about better policing. On the h. E. R. O. E. S. Act waiting on republican ingacceptance, it for Police Officers, firefighters, first responders, and so on. So i can tell you, theres widespread support about the people that are keeping our communities safe, but we need to be able to Work Together and to engender more trust. And and that we know that more accountability, more transparency, would engender more trust. And love to hear your thoughts on that. I think thats important, chairman cox, overall, it would endear more trust. Its also important that the Law Enforcement officers out there hear this from all elected officials. From any side of the spectrum. That they are supported when they are being attacked like the ones that were attacked at the white house, that were occurring, peaceful protests turned into riot and they were being attacked by bricks, caustic substances and unknown liquids, thats important we also support them in that area. Im supportive of funding for the men and women we represent. Thats important for the welfare of the department, the job. Thank you very much. I want to thank mrs. Ghaisar once again for being here. It takes unspeakable strength and deep kindness to work so hard to turn a personal tragedy into advocacy and make sure Something Like this never happens again. Its even more remarkable because of the families that are going to benefit from your efforts. And theyll likely not ever even know about your efforts, but thank you, again. And as ms. Ghaisar testified, there are lessons to be learned with confrontations. I want to ask about another one. May 28th, 2018, 2 rangers from the bureau of land management, other bureau, approached a van they believed had been in the park for more than two weeks on the land. The rangers engaged with eugene bayless inside the van and noticed a holstered gun on the dashboard. The rangers tried to secure the guns as they talked to him. Bayless tried to pull the gun from his holster. Body footage, body camera footage showed bayless drew the gun, showed bayless fired first hitting the rangers ballistic vest. There was an exchange of gunfire leaving bayless dead. The evidence from the body camera was essential in determining the facts and charges are going to be naturally pressed against the rangers. Mr. Ago, what does an incident like this tell us about the utility of bodyworn cameras and what does it say about the need for good policies . Thank you, chairman cox. It shows the importance of bodyworn cameras and rules and regulations followed specifically surrounding their use and in wlparticular what it shows is Police Officers working in manners that are reasonable, that are consistent with protecting the public and protecting health and safety, will be exonerated in situations when they use Necessary Force as a result of an assault on them. And so bodyworn cameras support the Police Officers in this situation. Thank you so much. And very quickly, mr. Northup, same question for you. What usage does that incident, for rangers, hold for you . Chairman cox, i am not familiar with that particular instance. Im relying on what you just said. I can only echo what mr. Ago just said which is that bodyworn cameras are often instrumental in understanding what occurred, why it occurred and often exonerates officers not only in really serious situations like you just described but sometimes with pretty routine complaints. Ive been able to use footage from incar camera systems to clear complaints about rangers about, frankly, were just unfounded. Great. They absolutely serve the public interest. Thank you so much. Im going to yield my taime and now yield to my colleague from virginia again, representative beyer. Thank you, chairman cox. By the way, its very fun to call you chairman cox. Mr. Ago, you spoke about the importance of transparency. Im very fortunate to represent Northern Virginia where we have really high standards with arlington, fairfax, fallschurch, alexandria. I want to compare the transparency between fairfax and arlington and the Parks Service because Fairfax County, we have the vast video dash camera that gave us the insight into bijans death, not from the park police. Burlington county, we have audio, communication, lafayette plaza, gave us insight into the infamous bunker bible pho photoshoot. We didnt get that from the park police. Where i live, more than 80 officers have completed the Mental Health First Aid Training and fallschurch police, i think they know everybody who lives in the city. Mr. Ago, thenacting chief mcclain the last time we met, the park police have lost the trust of the local communities. Everybody in Northern Virginia knows about bijan and knows what happened. Too many people have been brave enough to watch the tragic video. Can you explain why transparency is so important as a tool for Police Agencies and why having local trust is so important, how they can even begin to rebuild that trust. Thank you, congressman beyer. I appreciate your remarks. Transparency is crucial and goes hand in hand with accountability for police. Trust is what creates good policing because the community that police serve and protect and that promote and whose officers promote the health and safety of the people in those communities, then begin to work hand in hand with the police to provide services that are necessary to make the to use chairman coxs phrase, to be better every day. If youre standing still, youre not Getting Better. And so to use chairman coxs phrase, thats what accountability and transparency provide, and in particular with the park police, congressman beyer, this comes from the top. It comes from leadership that is welcoming of accountability and transparency. There is no real controversy i see in this subcommittee at all. Everybody is supporting bodyworn cameras. Everybodys supporting proper rules and regulations. We would argue with some of the things that mr. Cosme has suggested as proper rules and regulations. Having said that, though, the idea of proper rules and regulations are necessary. And so the problem with the u. S. Park police, and it is tragically being experienced by the trauma to the ghaisar family and in particular mrs. Ghaisar is their approach and attitude toward transparency, accountability, as opposed to the Fairfax County, virginia, police and their conduct in this particular case. Yeah, were very proud of the rest of our police and still are so concerned. We know right away park police had a policy about chases which the officers ignored. They had a policy about use of force which the officers ignored. And still no accountability. Mr. Cosme, we talked a lot about funding issues. I just looked it up. We appropriated and enacted senate, house, president , 15 billion for the department of interior for the fiscal year that ends tomorrow. And another more than 9 billion in Permanent Authority for the that doesnt have to be appropriated. 24 billion. You wrote very nicely about how the department has an unreliable and dangerous radio system, they have no idea what the status of their Communications System is. Whats going on as a businessperson when you 24 billion and you cant do body cameras and you cant make your radios work . Thats the ongoing question. And ive sent letters even to this committee to do a general inquiry of the department to ask whats going on because the men and women that i represent have reported back to me and my board of directors that they dont have adequate Communication System. Im glad youre highlighting that, congressman beyer. Thats a real important issue besides the bodyworn cameras because lets face it, folks, you might have the ability to have a bodyworn camera or an indash video of any footage, but if you dont have the ability to communicate, it can be a scenario where someones visiting a park and has a heart attack. If that officer did not communicate for first aid, then we have a problem and thats exactly right. I have yet to get some, you know, reasonable answers for that. Thats an important issue that we need to address besides bodyworn cameras. Yeah. You know, mr. Cosme, i know business and Political Leadership are not the same, but if it were my business or my department, i had Something Like that happen, i wouldnt wait three years to investigate it to figure out how to make it better. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. The chair will now recognize representative holmesnorton from the district. Seeing she stepped out. So well now recognize our great colleague from virginia, once again, representative wexton. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And mr. Cosme, id like to pick up where we left off. We were talking about those concurrent investigations. The criminal and internal investigation. You said generally the criminal goes first and then the internal. Yes. During that time that that internal investigation is pending, is it Standard Practice to in a case where the officers were involved in a Fatal Shooting in line of duty, is it Standard Practice to have those officers assigned to administrative duties, not coming in contact with the public during that period of time . It depends on each circumstance is different but typically the Standard Practices where they take administrative duties on pending the outcome of the matter. So, would it surprise you to hear that although its been going on for three almost three years, this investigation, whether it be criminal or internal investigation, after only six months, officers amaya and vineyard were placed back on patrol duty, would that be surprising to you . That would surprise me, but every department has different policies internally, and im specifically familiar with the policies of the u. S. Park police. Well, it is surprising because even though the police the park police were insisting publicly that these officers were on administrative duty, the ghaisar family learned through civil discovery that, in fact, this was reported in the washington post, that, in fact, theyd been back on patrol since april of 2018 and not only that, theyd been in a patrol car patrolling together at the same time, which is, of course, another issue with the whole getting their stories straight. So those are things that give me great concern. Mr. Ago, would that give you pause as well that these officers are working together on a daily basis on patrol . Yes, congresswoman, it certainly would for the reasons that you stated. Thank you. So the only reason that we have any information at all is because of the u. S. Park not because of the park polices transparency or their disclosures in this case, in fact, thab haey have stonewalle since day one and continue to stonewall almost three years later. The only reason that we have this information is because the chief from Fairfax County Police Department released the dash cam v video. As we heard today, park police, fbi, doj, refused to release information to the family, including the 911 recording that got this whole thing started. Kelly, how has this stonewalling affected your family . What impact has it had on you and your family . Its been awful. Its been awful. Not only our son was killed by the park police and federal and them being federal officers, we have been lied to. They have stonewalled information, and they have ev even the fbi agents who through the investigation into bijans shooting to attend their grand jury, if ever there would be any, by Fairfax County prosecutors. I dont know how much of coverup, lying, stonewalling, could come out of park police, the department of injustice, as i like to call it, and it has affected us dearly because not only weve lost our son to an unbelievable, unbelievable, nonreason. We have been lied to over and over again. Our trust in our government, our trust in our system, is completely gone. We dont trust anyone. First. Second, please think about the youth of our country. Think about bijans friends. Think about all the 20yearolds that have seen this over and over and right now my phone is blowing up with texts from bijans friends and young Family Friends at how disappointed they are. Why . Why . Why cant we just say this is what happened, this is the truth, we are sorry, what can we do, lets make it right. Why cant we do that . Why have our government put our family through literally three years of hell instead of mourning. I have to be sitting here talking to this panel about a silly body camera. I mean, honestly, are we doing this right now today . This is how its affected my family. Thank you, kelly. Its been horrible for you and i hope you do find justice and i hope we take the steps to prioritize getting body cameras and data and storage for federal Law Enforcement officers so that no other family has to go through this in the future. Thank you, and i yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you so much. We are going to start the third round of questioning of questions, and it will go myself, Ranking Member, then any other members that wish to address any other issues. And so at the end of july, this Committee Held a second hearing to examine the park polices attack on the Peaceful Protesters on Lafayette Square on june 1st. This is the infamous attack that immediately preceded president trumps unwelcome, frankly, sacrilegious, photoop, with a bible in front of st. Johns church. The acting chief of park police, mr. Greg monaghan, testified a t t that hearing. They directly contradicted the testimony of National Guard whistleblower, major dimarco, and others who had been present that day so theres no question that if the u. S. Park police were wearing body cameras, it could have helped to clear up some of the conflicting reports of that day, but if as we discussed, the park police has not implemented bodyworn cameras and has even prohibited officers from using them at times. And, so mr. Ago, do you believe that the park polices resi resistance to bodyworn camera bodyworn cameras reflected a broader resistance to transparency and accountability within the force . Yes, i do, chairman cox. Thank you for your question. In addition to that, what i would note on the june incident, concerning difficulties in radio communications, but on the june 1st incident as well, the park police did not record their radio communications. Again, providing us with less transparency that we should have as the american public. Yeah, thats a great point as well. In the subcommittee, we looked at several workplace issues including a systemic lack of diversity, equity, eninclusion, a inclusion. What we learned from examening the issues, even when we have the best policies in place the functional culture of the workplace will not change unless top leadership makes a stans sud and sincere effort to do so. Can you describe some of those concerns in more detail . Yes, sir, about 20 years ago monaghan when he was an officer, in a couple cases, constitutional violations of people he was arresting. Without accountability and transparency, the result was mr. Monaghan was not disciplined, in fact, rose to the level of chief of chief or supervisor in the internal Affairs Division of the United States park police and subsequently rose to become acting chief and thats when you see the problems with a lack of accountability allowing someone who has the history and disciplinary problems that acting chief monaghan had to reach the top level of this very Important Police force and it trickles down in terms of the attitudes and prospectives that the police force, itself, has. In other words, the u. S. Park police has, toward accountability and transparency which is tragically being experienced by the ghaisar family today. Thanks so much. Mr. North up, spending your lifetime and career with park service, id really appreciate your color and your input on really changing this dysfunctional culture of our workplace and what needs to be done, particularly at the u. S. Park police and the department of interior. Thank you for the question. I must tell you my 36year career with the park Service Working in various u. S. National parks was absolutely wonderful. Certainly had cultural challenges and there were many of us who were committed to Continuous Improvement not just of our Law Enforcement programs but management and operations of parks as a whole. I had a very positive experience working for the National Parks service. But i appreciate the concerns that have been raised by this committee. I can tell you that i do not have personal knowledge of some of the incidents that you are focusing on today. And the coalition thinks it would be inappropriate to comment on cases that are currently being both criminally and civilly investigated and adjudicated, but having said that, i feel a need to say that some of our members have expressed significant concern about the way in which these matters have been handled and we are also interested in seeing all of the Law Enforcement departments in the department of interior become more open, more transparent. These are public agencies and, obviously, with narrow exceptions, public agencies owe it to the public to explain what theyve done and why theyve done it. And the coalition to protect Americas National parks supports that effort. Thank you so much. And before i yield, i do want to make the point that we talked about the costs of body cameras and better telecommunications and Communications Systems. Lets be very clear, these are not costs. These are investments that have got real returns in terms of lives saved, efficiencies, community, societal, and economic benefits. And with that, i will yield my time and we will go to my great colleague and Ranking Member, ms. Gonzalezcolon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I cannot agree more, it is an investme investment, and i think we should do it properly and we should ensure what happened to the family of ms. Ghaisar will never happen again. I think that one life is enough, and i think nobody should be exposed to this situation, to have Real Transparency in the process for justice. This hearing, actually, the title of this hearing, is Police Cameras at the department of interior inconsistencies, failures, and consequences. So im just doing my questions in line of what the hearing was all about. So im sorry, ms. Ghaisar. I understand that this shouldnt be the issue, but that was the reason the hearing was called and i think, and i agree, on the issue of investing in this. Having said that, i have one last question. I think every time you got republicans and democrats in favor of one thing and investing in cameras and security, i do support that. You were saying in your testimony, regarding in sometimes my karks icase, im a as well. Obviously, when theres a crime involved, the only concern for not bringing the people to justice. But i just want to be clear because i read your testimony. You said that privacys one of the concerns regarding the creation of policies governing bodyworn cameras and you said the aclu also expressed concern about the privacy issues related to cameras. What privacy issues toward the public or to the for the officers . Mr. Cosme. Okay. I wasnt sure if it was for me or mr. Ago. The public in general, too, because you have hipaa laws. In some instances where you have these officers responding to a call where its a medical issue involved and the individuals being recorded may have a medical condition that you and you start questioning them about their medical condition and this is being captured by the body camera and this is whats been reported back to me by the membership, thats an issue we need to highlight and be careful with across the board because these individuals need to be aware that theyre being recorded and how do you segregate that stuff, just extricate that, from the actual body cam footage . An issue because you do have federal officers, Law Enforcement, that now they do use body cameras. That should not be different for the ones that may be implemented in the department of interior. Having said that, i want to say thank you, mr. Cosme. Thank you. Trial here. So i want to i really appreciate your experience and your views in terms of, you know, how unfortunate deal with this and how we can provide i truly understand you cant defund the police and expect to have resources and equipment that is sneedneeded f transparency and protect our citizens so in that sense, i want to say thank you. I want to say thank you to ms. Ghaisar, the rest of the witnesses on the panel. I know its not easy to talk about your son. Its not easy nothing easy, to talk about a crime that occurred that was never meant should never happen. And i personally feel touched by your words and i hope that this committee can do something to prevent this from happening. Having said that, i yield back my time. Thank you. Mr. Cox. Thank you so much. The chair will now recognize representative beyer from virginia. Thank rue veyou very much. Thanks, t. J. , for doing three rounds. Ranking member gonzalezcolon, thank you for hanging in there with us. I much prefer your Ranking Member leadership as opposed to lou louie. Love our Ranking Members. Youre absolutely right we dont want to defund the police. All these things were talking about would not be possible if we do that. We probably dont need to buy as many rocket launchers or tanks or even heat rays, maybe it would be better spent on radios and body camera training, good things like that. Mr. Ago, Robert Mcclain was the chief of the park police when Bijan Ghaisar was murdered. I dont want to engage in ad homonym attacks but structurally, does it make sense if youre the manager and lose every game that you get promoted the next year or if youre the head of a department that goes bankrupt that you then get promoted to run the whole country . What structure makes sense of that disaster to move him into the chief Law Enforcement officer of the interior . I cant speak to the structural failures on how he got promoted to that position, congressman beyer, but clearly there are structural failures, that someone that has under his under his watch overseen the by all appearances the unnecessary killing of a citizen and then coupled with the coverup that follows that shows that he does not have the leadership skills that are necessary to oversee an even growing number of Law Enforcement officers. So im troubled by that. Without knowing anything further from the inside, it is troubling from the outside and it speaks to the issue of transparency. Or lack of transparency. Thank you. It prubl troubles many of us. Ms. Ghaisar, bijans license plate said bijan. As the park list were chasing him at 45 miles an hour, chasing i nut qput in quotation marks. Do you think the fact his name was not bill or tom or richard had an impact on what the police were thinking . Yes. I do. When he was in the hospital and they thought because you have a mild accent that you are muslim, do you think that affected the way they treated you while you were trying to visit him while he was on life support . Yes. In fact, in fact, id like to go a little further on that. When the two park Police Detectives knocked on our door on november 27th, they showed us a snapshot of shthey showed us a snapshot of bijans one and only tattoo which is written in the persian language as if, like, what . And i told them, this is a from the great persian poet. I dont know what they were looking for but i found it very inappropriate. They had his license and license plate. They knew who bijan was. Showing me that particular item of bijans tattoo was so inappropriate and i think the fact that they saw bijan was that had a lot to do with it, absolutely. Do you think they thought it was the formula for the Iranian Nuclear weapon . Thats actually funny in a very sad way, yes. Dark humor. I apologize. No worries, please. Mr. Northup, with the bible incident and the clearing of the crowd, lots and lots of contested things over the years, heat ray and pellets. If the park police had body cameras, wouldnt it be easier to reconcile what would actually happen . I believe it would, sir, yes. A final coat on the conversation for me. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you so much. And seeing that our other members have gone off to other activities we have just a bit of time and so im going to take the last five minutes to allow our witnesses 1 minute and 15 to provide any final thoughts or words themselves. In terms of in alphabet order, well start with mr. Ago and finish up with ms. Ghaisar. I dont want to take too much time away from ms. Ghaisar. This is her moment to speak. I want to emphasis that the subcommittee and congress, larger the committee, as well as congress has a real opportunity to hear to be the leader in implementing body cameras across federal Law Enforcement at large, not just by the forces that are overseen by the department of the interior. And so i would ask the subcommittee respectfully to take this opportunity and take advantage of this moment and become a leader in the federal government. Thank you so much. Appreciate all of the questions. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here and thank you for your efforts and your service to our country. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. This message is for ms. Ghaisar. Like any shooting incident nfor Law Enforcement is tragedy. We cant replace bijan for you and a mothers love is forever enduring. And we you said that and we want you to hear that message. And i just want to also tell you that as discussed during this hearing, body cameras are an important tool for Law Enforcement but its not an absolute solution in and of itself. It may be would have shown Different Things what occurred to your son, but i just want you to know that we feel your pain and its a tragic loss for you and we understand that and im a father, and i just want to relay that to you. Thats all i have to say. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for allowing me this opportunity. Thank you. And northup . Chairman cox, thank you very much. We appreciate the hearing today and i will also be very brief and just say that, again, we support very rigorous standards for Law Enforcement operations within the department of interior. We absolutely support the use of incar body camera systems and we support Law Enforcement programs that are open and transparent and accountable to the public and appreciate the committees work to move us all in that direction. Thank you so much. And ms. Ghaisar, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, chairman. I have so much to say but im just going to make it as short as possible. First of all, the park police has failed to have a proper recording the night of my sons shooting. They claim that their communication was done. The same claim the day they gassed and beat the protestors on june 1st. Park police chief mcclain and then later park police chief moynihan have done nothing, zero transparency or accountability or even commutation with my family. The fact that i hear in testimony that 150 150 piece of gadget cannot obtained by a federal police unit breaks my heart, honestly. I cant even i cant even think about that. Third of all, this has been sitting in my heart for a very long time. Last time you had a hearing with police chief moynihan in a house committee, he had brought with himself a helmet of a park Police Officer and put it on the table when he was in the hearing. He had brought that helmet as a prop yet we have my son who is buried with ten bullets shot at him by the park police and he had done anything as lowly that chief moynihan has done in that hearing. Seriously. There has been so many things wrong with the park police, the way they present themselves, the way they do things but this has sat in my heart. When i see that helmet and that is the case he wants to make that these officers were beaten and abused at the protest, i dont know what i have to show. Im not going to im not going to stoop that low, but i just want to tell you, this is how disappointing the park police is from top down. And im done. Thank you. Thank you so much. I want to thank all of the Witnesses Today for providing important and unique insights on Police Cameras. Ms. Ghaisar, i want to give you special thanks for your courage in being here today and im sure your desire to do what we can to make sure that what happened to bijan does not happen to anyone ever again and its disappointing but not surprising that i didnt show up again today. They have forgotten that theyre answerable to the legislative branch of government. We are the peoples branch. Them not showing up is them not answering to the people. And i can certainly understand why they dont want to be here. It must be uncomfortable trying to defend this administrations actions that have been so unpopular, so antienvironment, so racist and deadly and illegal. Thats why the leadership is quashing this committees oversight efforts like this hearing. But this committee has a constitutionally backed responsibility to provide oversight to the department of inti interior on a suite of issues. And so no matter how uncomfortable it is to answer these questions, the American People deserve answers. Ms. Ghaisar deserves answers, mr. Ghaisar deserves answers. For anyone who loved bijan deserves answers. Thank you, sir. I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have additional questions for the witnesses and will ask you to respond to these in writing. Under Committee Rule 30, members must submit questions within three Business Days following the hearing and the hearing record will be held open for ten Business Days for the responses. If theres no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you. Weeknights this month were featuring American History tv programs as preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight, a look at world war ii. 75 years ago on september 2nd, 1945, government and military officials from the empire of japan signed surrender documents in a ceremony aboard the uss missouri in tokyo bay bringing the war to a close. The 75th World War Ii Commemoration Committee marked the day. Watch tonight beginning at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. The first president ial debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President joe biden is tonight at 9 00 eastern from cleveland. Watch live on cspan. Biden is recklessly campaigning against this vaccine. Its really reckless and all it is is for political reasons. Its political reasons. Biden, his whole deal is catastrophic shutdown. And, again, in his own words, recorded by bob woodward, the president knew back in february that this was an extremely dangerous contagious disease. Think about it. How many people across the iron range, how many empty chairs around those dinner tables because of his negligence and selfishness . Watch the first president ial debate live from cleveland tonight on cspan. Stream live or on demand at cspan. Org debates or listen live on the cspan radio app. The National Press club hosted a discussion on the 2020 election with the cofounders of the Lincoln Project. They discuss the mission of the Lincoln Project while they oppose reelecting donald trump and what they expect from a potential biden administration. Welcome to the National Press club. The place where news happens. Im lisa matthews. Vice president of the National Press club and assignment manager for u. S. Video of the associated press. Thank you for joining us today for our virtual headliners news maker with rick wilson and Steve Schmitt cofounders of the Lincoln Project. We are happy to accept questions