Transcripts For CSPAN3 Senate Hearing On College Athlete Compensation 20240712

I had two roll call votes i had to participate in. The environment of public works, we have a quirky rule in the sena senate, in our committees. If you want to vote no by proxy, that counts. If you want to vote yes by proxy, that doesnt count. So i had to be there in person. We can now get started. Rhea, are you ready . Yes. Thank you so much. This hearing will come to order. Today the committee convenes to discuss the issue of compensating student athletes for the use of their name, image and likeness, nil. I welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses and thank them for appearing. Today, we will hear from keith carter, vice chancellor for Intercollegiate Athletics for university of mississippi, my alma mater, where i lettered in zero sports. Mr. Michael drake, chair of the National Collegiate Athletic Association board of governors and president emeritus of the Ohio State University. Ms. Deion collar, professor of law and director of the center for sport and the law at the university of Baltimore School of law. Mr. Greg sanke, commissioner of the Southeastern Conference, and mr. Eric winston, chief partnerships officer for one team partners, former president of the nfl players association, and former nfl player and College Athlete. College sports are a rich part of the fabric of americas families, communities, and states. College sports have long been deeply rooted in our culture. This is true in my home state of mississippi where there are over 30 institutions of Higher Learning that offer College Athletic programs. Like a lot of places across the United States, College Sports is never far from the minds or memories of mississippians. Reliving and recounting the results of past contests is a common occurrence. For example, ole miss fans still talk about golsons game winning interception in the end zone to help ole miss knock off top ranked alabama in 2014. I was there. I remember where i was sitting in the stadium at the time. And its still thrilling to recall Morgan Williams overtime jumper to help the Mississippi State Lady Bulldogs end uconns 111game winning streak in 2017. We just needed one more win. College sports contribute so much more than triumphant or heartbreaking memories. Sports help engrain in our student athletes the values of fair play, sportsmanship, and teamwork. Sports have helped lead societal change, and they continue to help unite the country. College sports also offer valuable academic opportunities for students who might otherwise have none. With these things in mind, i approach the topic of todays hearing with an abundance of caution and reluctance, even skepticism and trepidation. On this issue, Congress Might well heed the timehonored hippocratic oath, first do no harm. As the committee of jurisdiction over youth amateur collegiate and professional sports, this Committee Seeks expert advice today. As we decide which direction we begin to take for congressional action on the issue of nil. Compensation in College Sports. More than 30 states have adopted, introduced or signaled plans to introduce legislation allowing for student athletes to be compensated for the use of their nil. I believe my colleagues recognize the need to avoid differences among the states by having uniform set of standards by which our collegiate student athletes compete. A set of uniform standards that will strive for a level Playing Field. At the same time, we must recognize that any standards for the compensation of nil must also provide protections for students, schools, and associations. Particularly for the student athletes. We must be mindful of the law of unintended consequences. Human nature being what it is, we need to realize that some of our fellow mortals will seek and likely find loopholes for an unfair advantage. Over the last four months, i have spent hours on the phone with University President s, athletic directors, and former collegiate athletes to help understand the current collegiate student athlete system and how to approach a National Policy on nil. As part of that process and in preparation for this hearing, i sent a list of 20 questions to 50 collegiate associations, conferences, universities, colleges, and service academies. We have summarized those responses and put that information on the committees website. Without objection, i will enter that summary document into the record at this point. Hearing none, that will be done. In may, the ncaa board of Governors Working Group issued a report of student athlete compensation. The modernization of rules related to nil commercialization and recommendations to congress. We are grateful to have that input as well, and i ask unanimous consent to insert that into the record also. Without objection, it will be done. And almost every discussion i have had, the topic inevitably turned to a look at the many ways this issue might be abused or go awry. For example, will High School Athletes choose to attend a university in a large media market because they believe it will generate more nil value . How will universities or their supporters be prevented from manipulation of nil contracts in the recruiting process . Will businesses invest in student athlete nil rights to promote a legitimate business, or as an avenue to create access to athletes, coaches, and Athletic Programs . Will it be easier or harder for the star player on a team to put the team first, even when showcasing individual talent may increase nil income . Will nil result in a rise in student athlete transfers to universities in bigger advertising markets . How will third parties contracting with student athletes be regulated and how will that impact schools ability to insure compliance and enforcement of ncaa rules . Is an 18yearold emotionally and financially prepared to make all the choices required to enter into nil contracts . What will be the impact of the students academic obligations . Will permitting compensation for nil further widen the gap between the haves and the have nots among institutions of Higher Learning . And what about the effect on title ix and womens sports . The list goes on and on. Let me single out senator moran for taking the first steps on this issue by holding a subcommittee hearing on nil earlier this year. I know he shares with me the sense of importance and urgency this issue demands. I look forward to working with him and all of the members of the Commerce Committee as we move forward to seek a solution. Many questions remain. I hope our committee will gain a better understanding of these complicated issues and the challenges before us by means of these expert witnesses today. Let me again thank them for being here and recognize my dear friend and colleague member cantwell for her opening remarks. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for that long and thoughtful statement and a little bit of reminiscing about your own experiences. I consider myself a sports fan, and definitely a collegial sports fan, but certainly one that sides with wanting to have amateur athleticism and to make sure that were keeping amateur athleticism. If anything, i feel like we should be doing more, as a committee, in our oversight of the violations of that athleticism and amateurism that occur all the time and mark me down as not a fan of one and done, but somebody who really believes in the collegial system, as you said, of giving athletes an experience of leadership, teamwork, building all sorts of character that i hope that we can continue to preserve as we look at this legislation. And i want to thank our witnesses for being here today, too. I know you come from a breadth and depth of experience on these issues. At the out set, i hope we have a chance to talk about the Current Health care crisis as were moving closer to the beginning of the Academic Year and know that the pandemic is not relenting, i want to make sure were putting into place safeguards to protect our student athletes as we look forward to what the collegial environment might be this fall. So ill have a chance to ask people about this. This issue of compensation for student athletes is a complex one, as the chairman mentioned, with strong feelings on both sides and growing legal battles in the courtrooms and state legislatures around the country. Despite its complexity, it is impossible to ignore the simple facts that these athletes do produce billions of dollars for the ncaa and member institutions and arent able to market themselves as other athletes students would be, so the status quo is especially jarring as we look at this National Reckoning on Racial Justice and civil rights issues and want to understand the impacts of the nil on all athletes. So i look forward to the discussion and potential solutions that were going to talk about today. I am not a fan of an ncaa antitrust exemption. I think that cautioning all momentum for change with this blunt legal instrument is both unnecessary and illadvised. Similarly, i oppose the congress fully deferring to the ncaa on just coming up with the rules on name, image, and likeness. I think congress should not abdicate its role, and i think the chairmans very thoughtful discussion and hard work on this shows that we need to have some input and oversight to make sure that its done right. The chairman just articulated a long list of complexity to the issue, which i very much appreciate his understanding and the delicate balance that so many institutions have already tried to achieve by complying with the rules that are on the books today. And so i agree with the chairman that we dont want to see a new system in which violations would occur, because somebody sees a new avenue to promote a Competitive Edge in what is hopefully as balanced as we can get. But again, like i said, i think we should have more oversight on these issues. How can we find a solution that preserves both the character of College Sports while also providing athletes with well deserved rights . So as i said, i believe in preserving amateurism and that athletes would be able to grow and i look forward to hearing professor kollers comments on this issue and exactly how we can achieve this. I believe congress should take the time to get this right. It must be an open process. Hundreds of thousands of current athletes and millions of future athletes and their families are depending on it. And as the chairman said, this is a long tradition. Its part of our culture, these institutions, these athletic events. And we dont want to turn them into one more avenue of, again, people just gaming a system on behalf of the athletes and then leaving the athletes, again, without their own recourse. So i look forward to seeing this set of solutions that we can agree on and i hope that we can also at some point in time, mr. Chairman, look more closely at mechanisms to insure that female athletes have the same opportunity to earn compensation as their male colleagues. I think this is an important issue that deserves its own hearing and deserves its own focus and hopefully we can get to that at some future date. So thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, senator cantwell. And now, the written statements by all five of our witnesses will be entered into the record in their entirety. We ask each witness to summarize their testimony in five minutes, and of course, mr. Winston will be joining us remotely. So well just begin at the left end of the table here and proceed down the table. Mr. Carter, you are recognized. Chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell, and the members of the Commerce Committee, good morning. My name is keith carter, and im the vice chancellor for Intercollegiate Athletics at the university of mississippi, or more commonly referred to in athletic circles as ole miss. Its certainly an honor to represent our great university, the Southeastern Conference and other athletic directors and student athletes from across the country regarding name, image and likeness. I would like to thank senator wicker for inviting me to testify today and for everyone on the committee for your good and attention as we look to Work Together and answer your questions regarding this timely and critical issue for student athletes across the country, the need for name, image and likeness nationwide. I believe its time for enter collegiate to find a way forward. Personal image and how a compensation model could potentially be implemented must be done in deliberate, thoughtful and inclusive manner as it will shape the future of athletics. Athletics has been a vital part of my life since i was 5 years old. Growing up i paid baseball and basketball and ultimately had an opportunity to pursue a lifelong dream. I was recruited by numerous schools and close to be an hath leet at university of mississippi. When i played i enjoyed the student let experience. While the schedule was rigorous, class, study hall, weight training, practice, certainly competition, the Student Athlete Experience shaped and molded me to the person i am today. I also noticed my image and status grew as i improved as a player and my team became more successful. I was more recognized on campus and within the community. Interview requests increased, public appearances increased. Looking back there would have been some market value for myself and my teammates. Today it has changed, whether social media, endorsements or promotions our student athletes have an opportunity to capitalize on name, image and likeness similar to thousands of other students with whom they attend college. After finishing my basketball clear in europe, i realized i wanted to be back on a College Campus working in an Athletic Department. Working and having a real life story of how my experience prepared me for the future, i felt an obligation to give back. Special people, coaches, administrators, countless others made a difference in my life. I pt wanted to use my experiences to help other young men and women achieve their goals. I take pride in listening to student athletes. I often get questions about the opportunity to benefit from their nil in the same way that their nonathlete classmates do and the timing around any potential legislation. What does this model look like . It is very complex. But we have an opportunity to shape what this could look like and ensure that unintended consequences do not cause long lasting ripple effects on our ability to support almost 200 400 student athletes. It is also vitally important the government structure be formed around federal legislation to ensure each state, and therefore each university in the nation, has a uniform framework that continues to focus on education, and the unique appeal of the current amateur model. Ensuring students remain students and College Athletics doesnt become pay for play is essential in my potential solution. In my opinion, the preferred nil system involves Third Party Compensation oath where colleges or universities are not allowed to pay for or other wigs facilitate opportunities for their student athletes. Another new important component must sure that nil are kept out of the recruiting process. Absent sufficient regulatory framework, nil could be used as improper inducements during recruiting that deter student athletes from pursuing a particular opportunity a University May offer him or her. Agents and boosters in facilitating in offering be opportunities is essential to a healthy framework. We come before you today to speak to the need for federal legislation for this much needed opportunity. Our goal is to work with you to put forth a National Framework and first and foremost protect the interest of all student athletes, both male and female, safeguard the recruiting process and ultimately provide equal opportunities for all student athletes to benefit from their nil in the very same manner as their nonathlete classmates. Thank you again for this opportunity. Ultimately we believe that more can and should be done for our student athletes but in a way that continues to promote education to get consistent opportunities for all. I look forward to working toward a solution and enhancing the lives of our student athletes in the future. Thank you. Thank you very much, mr. Carter. Dr. Drake, welcome. Thank you very much. And good morning. I had a green light. Sorry. I was thinking go. Good morning, mr. Chairman. Good to see you today and Ranking Member cantwell, good morning. Members of the committee, on behalf of the National Collegiate athletic and where i was introduced as chairman emeritus, which has been the case about 10 hours, i appreciate my new shortlived status, i appreciate your issue of compensating student athletes related to name, image and likeness. As a medical doctor and 20year member of National Academy of medicine i have testified before as an expert and grateful to do so again. In spring 2019 interest heightened with the introduction of federal and state legislation to permit students to be compensated for their nil. They established a working group in may 2019 to develop recommendations. In october 2019 the ncaa board of governors unanimously supported the working groups recommendations and began the process of modernizing rules to allow students participating in athletics the opportunity to benefit from the use of their nil. As outlined in my testimony, the associations ability to move forward is hampered by three factors that we encourage you to focus on today. Specifically, were asking for your partnership to preempt state bills on nil with different provisions and start dates so there is a uniform standard and approach. Two, to project universities and conferences from antitrust litigation that affects our ability to thwart the evolving equitively support the needs of student athletes. Three, to protect amateurism in College Sports that is guided by long standing values of education, opportunity, well being and fairness. Id like to recognize that the attention that members of which committee and others in congress are giving to the issue of name, image and likeness in collegiate athletics. I like to recognize an ohio state alumnis and Football Player for his support of student athletes and the work hes done around this issue. Together we could enact and implement legislation that will provide a uniform name, image and likeness approach. I believe this action will result in fair and uniform competition for all athletes and protect student athletes. Thank you. Thank you. And our next witness, i bet likes to have her name pronounced correctly. So koller. Koller. You are recognized for five minutes. Chairman and Ranking Member cantwell, im professor of law at the university of baltimore. I am also a former athlete and proud parent of an Ncaa Division 3 athlete. Thank you for inviting me here to speak to you about these important issues. For Decades Congress and courts have deferred to the ncaa to build a model for intercollegial sports thats is grown into a multibillion dollar industry. The ncaa calls this the american model. Courts are increasingly calling it a violation of antitrust law. Today the ncaa purports to seek legislation to preserve what it defines as amateurism. In realty it seeks to see the profits that an amateur model yields. This committee should not be moved. The action sought by the ncaa would cause further harm to athletes but ultimately to the entire College Sports enterprise. It is a model that is literally breaking under the weight of its own injustice. The decades of excesses and abuses perpetrated under the guise of amateurism are wellknown and the subject of congressional hearings and reports including the reports senator murphy released last year. The profound unfairness of this model is apparent considering it is black men often from socioeconomic backgrounds that provide the labor that pays white coaches and administrators bloated above market salaries. The ncaa model, therefore, is not just an economic issue, it is increasingly a social justice issue. Today the ncaa and College Sports are asking for more than deference, theyre asking for a level of insulation from the free market rules that nearly every other american industry must follow. Granting this extraordinary request is not at all necessary to preserve the many benefits that intercollegiate sports provides. There is no urgency presented by this issue. While federal solution to the name, image, likeness image could be useful and the model are not ir reply raebl threatened by state legislation. In addition, if any guardrails are necessary, the ncaa should not be the ones to craft them. Athletes can, like other students on campus, enter the free market and strike deals for the use of their name, image and likeness. The only guardrails needed in this situation are those provided by federal antitrust law that would prevent ncaa imposing unreasonable restraints on trade in the name of amateurism. Rather thag than seeking protection from congress to impose economic restraints on athletes, the ncaa should craft rules that better support athletes health, safety and well being. Indeed, if athletes are currently able to sign waivers to facilitate their return to practice during a Global Health pandemic, they should be permitted to make deals to market their name, image and likeness. The ncaa asserts nil rights for athletes could threaten the gains made by title ix. This is surely not the case. In fact, the rights would promote and not undermine gender equity. To promote gender equity, ncaa and member institutions should instead focus on title ix compliance, something yet to be fully realized. Most importantly, an antitrust exception is not warranted here. The ncaa asserts that an exemption is necessary to prevent vague unsubstantiated predictions of harm to the amateurism model. Antitrust cases, however, has documented the ncaa overly restrictive rules produce very real demonstrable harm to athletes and the free market. An antitrust exception would serve to shield an industry that has struggled to demonstrate that its competitive restraints are fully necessary to produce College Sports. Finally this committee is well aware that unchecked powered by sports regulators too often leads to cultures that harm athletes and threaten the games themself. The example of United States Olympic Committee is instructive. I applaud this committee for its work to address these issues. Most recently with bills such as the equal pay for team usa act. Through the important leadership of this committee, congress has taken significant steps to protect athletes and restore confidence in the u. S. Olympic movement, and it has the opportunity to do the same for intercollegial sports. In conclusion, in nearly every context where athletes have advanced arguments for fundamental fairness, equality, health and wellbeing, sports regulators like ncaa have countered with dire predictions that support itself would be threatened. The predicted harm never materializes. History has shown initiatives that strength eened athletes rights have strengthened the integrity and popularity of sports and i have no doubt that allowing intercollegial athletes the right to mark their name, image and likeness without unnecessary restriction by ncaa will do the same. I thank you, and i look forward to your questions. Thank you, very much, commissioner sankey, you are recognized. Thank you, chairman wicker and Ranking Member cantwell and distinguished members of the committee. Opportunity to visit on the important topic of student athlete on behalf of the Southeastern Conference, i ant pate the student athlete name and image and likeness. My name is greg sankey and ive served as commissioner of the Southeastern Conference since june of 2015. That is part of a 33year career in College Athletics including work on a Small Division three campus in upstate new york. Small Division One Football playing university in natchitoches, louisiana. Universities in texas and louisiana and now with the s. E. C. My objective is to share the important view that we must get this name, image and likeness issue right. In order to ensure that we are able to provide opportunities for many young women and young men both now and in the future. And that we preserve the characteristics of College Athletes that make it unique, appealing and important to so many in our country. In realty, this issue presents unique and challenging complexities that could be misunderstood and may result in those unintended consequences that have been identified. And so i offer the following for your consideration. First, as we implement the nil changes, our student athletes must remain students and not those unintended consequences that have been identified. We add additional responsibilities on an already busy schedule. Second, we must not allow College Athletics to evolve into a pay for play system. This means prohibiting colleges and universities from paying student athletes directly or image, and likeness rights. The california nil law scheduled to take effect in 2023 allows just that or Even University head coaches to purchase student athletes name and image and likeness rights and provide that compensation to members of their team once they enroll. That is simply a pay for play model. Third, the reality is there is no draft process in College Sports. Which means we must keep nil activity out of recruiting. And in practical term this is means federal legislation must preclude Athletic Department boosters from using name, image and likeness compensation as a recruiting inducement for High School Students or for College Students contemplating a transfer to another institution. Fourth, we need to enact meaningful protections for student athletes. The reality is outside parties will have great interest in taking advantage of student athletes who lack experience in making business decisions, selecting agents, determining advisers and other experience in evaluating whether a deal is too good to refuse. Finally, we need a federal law to address these issues. College athletes need the uniform system for regulating name, image and likeness activities as 50 different state laws will not support National Competition or National Championships in a fair and effective manner. Also, i believe our High School Athletes being recruited nationally by multiple universities and multiple states need to understand one clear standard for evaluating their name, image and likeness opportunities. And we need protection from claims and liability arising from the implementation of new nil standards and from continual challenges to the validity of ncaa rules, which we have discussed in a more lengthy manner and my responses to senator wickers questions in my written testimony. We seek protection from claims related to implementation of federal legislation to create opportunities for student athletes. We seek to work with this community and others in congress to produce a federal law that provides a path for student athletes to benefit from name, image and likeness in a way that will preserve the key tenants of College Athletes and create a uniform standard and protect stakeholders from potential liability. In 33 years of working in College Athletics ive learned many things, but at the top of the list were not perfect. Yet. We do some incredible things in College Sports. We provide opportunities. We provide education for young people. We engage our public. We celebrate the achievement and we guide students as they transition from adolescence to adulthood. We do all of that very well. I look forward to working with you to continue these successes and thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation. Thank you very much, commissioner. And now remotely, we are joined by mr. Eric winston. Sir, can you hear us . Yes, i can hear you senator. You are recognized and we appreciate you being with us. Thank you. Good afternoon mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and members of committee and thank you for inviting me today and allowing me to appear virtually on this important discussion on economic rights and problem solving. I join you not as a former college and nfl Football Player but helping everyone in College Athletics come up with a fair and equitable system around the name, image, and likeness of College Athletes. The conversation is one im familiar with from my playing days at the university of miami in the early 2000s. When i was at miami the bowl was sold out for every game, we played in front of massive television audiences, and were covered by the National Media every day. That attention shined a spotlight on the program, the popularity of the school and generated large sums of revenue. Sales of team and player product went through the roof. Broadcasters and sponsors spent millions annually to be part of the experience. All of the positive things were a result of the players and the teams success. Away from the bright lights and success of the Playing Field, however, was a far different story. That side involved players like me struggling to maintain a full schedule of classes while balancing requirements for daily training, rehab, and preparation to remain at an elite level. While people are more aware today of the challenges and demands of competitive athletics, there is still a notion in some corners that were merely lucky to get a scholarship. The reality is that there is very little time for scholarship. In fact, the more successful we were, the greater the pressure and demands. Most of us knew life would be Something Like once we signed up our college scholarship, nonstop and pressure packed. But what we didnt know is that our yearround effort to win games, pack stadiums, drive media and maximize tv contracts and raise booster money and create revenue for the school and the conference and the ncaa, we would hardly have enough money to pay for basic living expenses. We received a scholarship check for the months that we were in class. Ten checks. I was forced to say a fraction of every check to make up the difference to pay for my expenses. The stipend was hardly enough to cover expenses and every month every dollar was stretched. Some things have changed since then, i know College Athletes still face these issues. After school i transitioned to the nfl and worked hard to have a distinguished 12year career in the nfl, including a sixyear tenure as nfl president. I understand the group of commercial activity and how everyone could benefit from revenue generated. From there my clear path led me to team partners, because i know inequities during my college days are not fixed, and i want to be part of that solution. The group rights of male and female athletes across prosports from the nfl, mlb, nba and u. S. Womens soccer and rugby. We believe College Licensing is the first step into the nil space and low hanging fruit, which can be implementation easily. Our team has the expertise and resources to maximize the opportunities for both the athletes and the institutions for which they play. Its a winwin for everyone involved. Students could benefit from new Revenue Streams such as video games, video cards and athletes can pocket money to ease the worries about where their next meal is going to come from and the fans benefit from the licensed products. Innovation in this space is important and change in athletics is already here. We can resist the change in the evolving business of athletics or Work Together to create a fair and equitable stock market that put the headlines back where they belong, on the sports themselves. Athletes are driving the business already so we need to get on board and support them. Thank you for your time and i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much, mr. Winston. And thank you all. And now well begin the series of questions, and well use the five minute round. Mr. Carter, you attended ole miss just a few years before mr. Winston attended miami, is that correct . Correct. And he listed a pretty tough set of circumstances, little time for study, coaches grilling us in the film room for hours and hours, very sketchy allowance for expenses and having to check the bank account to see if you could pay for living expenses. Only receiving those checks ten months out of the year rather than 12. Is that something that you recognize in your collegiate career, and has that changed since that time . Yes, sir, that is a great question. And i would agree with eric on that from a standpoint of when i was in school, there were times when you didnt have a lot of money in your pocket. Your scholarship check, a lot of those things, you had the essentials, you had your room and board paid for and you had a lot of things done, but the extracurricular activities, sometimes you didnt have the money to pay for those. Again, i do think things have changed a lot since the late 90s when i was at ole miss. I look at some of the things our student athletes have now with unlimited meals, cost of attendance checks implementation three or four years ago. I do feel like there were [ inaudible question ] each institution basically decides how much of a cost of attendance they want to pay and we pay up to the full amount for each student athletes. We think were providing a lot of resources, and were here today to discuss opportunities to provide potentially more resource which i think is a great thing. But i would say without a doubt, student athletes now are in a much better place from a lot of the things that mr. Winston mentioned than when he and i were in school. You provided a list of benefits for a Scholarship Athlete at the university of mississippi in your written testimony. What does the average ole miss basketball scholarship recipient receive today . What is the entire compensation package . Well, for an outofstate student, a nonresident student like you were . Yes. Exactly. Youre looking at 42,000 for the tuition and all of the things that go along with cost of attendance there. Weve calculated that there is probably another 25,000 that would go to a student athlete on an annual basis based on whether it be medical situations, academic services, strength and conditioning. A lot of the things that, for example, if these students were professional athletes they would have to pay for. And so we feel like that the total number at ole miss at our full ride head count student athletes get is around 68,000 to 78,000. And what about is there some provision for most universities for daytoday living expenses, being able to run downtown and eat at a restaurant, things like that . Yes, sir. I think that, again, there are certainly the fact that a lot more meals are provided now, things that maybe again when mr. Winston and i were in school that we had to pay for out of a scholarship check or those type of things. There are incidental meals. There are unlimited meals. There are snacks. Basically our stupidity athlete, anywhere they turn around on our campus in the athletic facilities, they have an opportunity to grab food, which allows them to have more money in their pocket to spend on other things. As i mentioned, three or four years ago when the full cost of attendance option was available, that is allowing in the state of mississippi it is about 4,800 per student athlete per year. So more money in their pocket and obviously were here to talk about doing more. But i do feel like over the years weve done a lot to enhance the experience of our student athletes, and i certainly know that it has been a good thing. What your Graduation Rate among Scholarship Athletes in ole miss . Were very high. Were up in the 80 percentile, which is higher than the normal population. We have job placement. We placed 100 of our graduating seniors as they left our institution. There are so many Resources Available to student athletes besides the scholarship itself. What is that figure in the s. E. C. , mr. Sankey. It will vary. Well have programs or universities that are at or near 100 Graduation Rate and will trail down into the 80s. The lowest off the top of my head is in the high 70s and that doesnt include that is a sixyear window analysis that doesnt include post eligibility returns which over the last five years were in the hundreds of opportunities provided for young people to come back and complete their degrees. Thank you very much. Senator cantwell. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I couldnt agree with you more on protecting amateurism and protecting amateurism. And we should do be doing more oversight and not less. I feel like there is a lot of on things that happen that dont get the bright light of day shone on them, and so we should take that opportunity. How do you think that name, image and likeness and amateurism could Work Together and what kind of oversight do you think is necessary to make sure that the students are the athletes have the rights independently protected . Senator, i think name, image, and likeness can work with the amateurism model but where i part company with some of the ncaa suggestion is who should be in the business of enforcing that and writing the restrictions. And so what the ncaa board of governors report is asking for is a blank check to the ncaa to write the restrictions. I think that either congress could write restrictions on nil use into legislation or, for instance, some have proposed an independent commission that could be in charge of that. So i think the blank check to the ncaa to come up with restrictions on nil use is suspect given that all of the terrific benefits mr. Carter talked about that student athletes now receive, those benefits were the result of antitrust litigation. So i think it could Work Together but i think we need an independent body coming up with the necessary safeguards, so to speak, and enforcement. And how do you protect the athletes on the amateurism issue in and of itself . So there are a lot of ways to protect athletes in amateurism system. If youre talking about name, image and likeness and you could have prohibitions on schools, setting up these deals for athletes. You could have prohibitions on using the deals as recruiting enhancements. I think there are a lot of ways you can do that. You could write it into legislation or have an independent commission do it. But again what the ncaa has asked for through the board of governors report is a far more expansive definition of that, and i think thats unnecessary. I mentioned this issue of the pandemic. And so dr. Drake, will you allow students to refuse to compete or participate in college mandated activities because of covid . Absolutely. The participation is voluntary. Of course, senator. So why am i seeing this thing called the buckeye pledge, returning students sign the waiver before participating in thank you, senator. Let me say they did not sign the liability waiver. That is not true. It is a pledge that all of our students are going to be assigning to basically follow the Good Public Health guidelines that you and i and everyone should follow to help protect us against this against the pandemic. In fact, the guidelines are exactly parallel to the cdc issued guidelines that came out yesterday. What the millenial says is youll wear a mask while in public and wash your hands and keep six feet of distance and if you become ill report to the people that allow you to be protected. So a Football Player could say i dont want to participate in this fall season and not have any of his compensation or yes, the scholarship. Specifically in the pledge, it says this will not affect your scholarship. Whether or not you participate will not affect your scholarship. Specifically written to say that. Its a pledge, not a waiver, which i would not support. Okay, thank you. Miss koller, do you have any comments about this . I dont want to question the intent behind the buckeye edge, as an administrator trying to bring students back to campus, we need to have collective understandings of public health. I think thats important. I would say as a lawyer and law professor, the buckeye pledge, and i dont want to focus on that too much, i think the university of tennessee has a worded release of liability that is deeply concerning, and other schools do as well, but things like the buckeye pledge, which are important for public health, could cross over and be used later on down the line to be an assumption of risk. Senator thune. Okay, thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Sankey, would your Conference Today be able to comply with several state laws seeking to address the issue of name image and likeness. It would be difficult and confusing. My concern is we have one in our region knowing that the competition within my 11 states, i could foresee quickly the other 10 oneupping each other. I think thats unfair for equitable competition. Is there anybody on the panel that does not believe there is a need for a nationwide standard . No. I know you kind of suggested miss koller, not to the extent that others are perhaps advocating. Its not an emergency but certainly desirable, certainly. Mr. Drake, when dr. Emmert testified before the committee this year he stated that he envisioned each individual division having some degree of control over the rules to allow athletes to benefit from their name image and likeness as long as they follow the largest set of parameters set by the ncaa to board of governors. Is that how you envision the rule working . They have different rules on scholarships and things so there could be modifications to distinguish the divisions 1, 2 and 3 but an over arching framework that guides this. As those rules are being set, what steps are each of the respective divisions taking to ensure that fair and balanced competition is between the larger and smaller schools. What is happening now is each division is working on its recommendations for the details of the policy that will come to the board of governors in october. And those are the kind of details that theyre focusing on now. All right. It is been suggested that there should be a limit on the amount of funds potential nil sponsor could offer a student to protect students from inappropriate predatory actions. Do you all agree with that . Limits . Okay. Well, lets let every witness answer, including mr. Winston. Would each witness support a limit on the amount of nil compensation a student athlete could receive . Miss koller . I dont support a limit on the amount of compensation. Coy see a need for common sense limits on the ways that these deals come to be, so theyre not recruitment endeucements. Inducements. I dont support limiting compensation. That was your question . Yeah. Lets let the other three members answer. Dr. Drake. Thank you, senator. I just have common sense limits so you couldnt get 50,000 for whatever, a tshirt. Just common sense agreements. I think i agree with the mrs. Koller. I was starting to lean in. I was waiting to see how the answer was going to play out. I do believe there needs to be a structure around how this is deployed, some of which have been identified. Im not envisioning a numerical limit. I think sources are important to consider for limitations and the nature of those relationships that might be in legislation should be considered. Ive had conversations generally about a numerical limit, and that is not the focus of our thinking at this point. Okay. And i would just add that we talked a lot about market value and giving our student athletes the same opportunity as nonstudent athletes, so i think that you would refer back to the market value and certainly some common sense approach and the structure needs to be there but there. The market value is where we would fall back to. And senator, ill jump in here. Yeah, ill jump in here, as well. Yeah. I dont see a need for a limit per se. Obviously when we think about common sense thought processes around how thats thats paid out or restrictions around it, i would echo what mr. Carter and ms. Kolla have said on this already. Senator, ive taken some of your time. You take another two or three minutes. Thats all right. That was good to get that answer on the record and in more specific terms. Let me ask you this is for any of you whether you believe rules around name, image, and likeness should affect the College Athletic recruit process. The second question is will it affect the College Recruitment process . The will it part, it absolutely has the potential. And thats why in my comments i observed the need to address the issue specifically. And i view that in several ways. One, if this activity is around recruitment, its simply an inducement, and we lose the conversations that currently occur in recruiting around education, around geography, around the nature and support of the program. And it becomes transactional. I think that is legitimately a concern that we should have. The difficult part is to create whether its guardrails, fencing, framework for that limitation within the legislation, and then to monitor that activity in a way that eliminates it or reduces it from recruiting. I think its not simply an issue for High School Students. I also think with what will be a freer environment for transfer student athletes, that same type of recruiting activity transfers itself to the College Level under an unstructured name, image, and likeness atmosphere. Yes, sir. If i may, im the son of a College Athlete. My father went to college on a college scholarship. Wouldnt have gone to college otherwise. He went he wanted to play football, not because he wanted to go to college. Then actually he graduated from college, which he hadnt ever thought of, and practiced medicine, got a medical degree and practiced medicine until he 99 years old. It changed his life, and it changed my life and our families lives. The pathway was extraordinarily important. Im also the father of a divisionone collegiate athlete, now graduated. And a visiting professor at nyu. But he i remember the recruitment process. He heard from 300 colleges when he was in high school. And was recruited very actively by colleges in different states and made a decision about the college he wanted to go to. It turned out to be a wonderful process. Very affirming for him and gave him the ability to look across the country and pick the best match. And i think thats a great part of this process. Youre not drafted and will pointed to one team. I have a nephew who played in the nfl for six years. And i watched that process, as well. Its quite a different process than the recruitment process. I think thats something that needs to be protected. And weve seen with the laws that have passed already that people in those states have been referring to the state of florida in particular, referring to florida now as a place that students, athletes ought to come, because of the nil laws that would take place in florida before others. This oneupsmanship as the commissioner mentioned, has all right started. That would be one of the biggest concerns i have as representing a state where youve got some schools that are mid major conference schools, division two, many ia, is how it could affect the ability of some of those really quality schools, many of which have attracted athletes from the region, for many of the benefits that you all have talked about if this becomes a money issue, how that could impact that recruiting process. I think thats something we have to be careful of, aware of, as we work through this issue. And i will tell you its come a long ways. My dad was a divisionone athlete, played at the university of minnesota back in the late 30s and early 40s. He is one of the in fact, hes 100 years old. He i think by far is the only athlete still alive from that when he was competing in the big ten. But at that time, the idea of a scholarship was you worked for your room and board. He worked at a fraternity to make his board. That was it changed a lot. s great that these athletes have these opportunities, but we want to make sure that this is done in a way that doesnt create a lot of potential for bad things to happen. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator. My dad was was a Junior College athlete back before world war ii, and it indeed, he will tell you at age 96 that it changed his life. Senator tester, you are next. Im guessing you ran Cross Country in college. Pretty close. Well, im going to tell you my dad was a farmer and a meat cutter and lived to be darn near 89. Its a good thing. Hey, first of all, i want to thank you for testifying. I appreciate it. We need to stay in touch on this issue. I agree with senator thune about its got to be equitable. We cannot give advantages to the moaned conferences. If it does, we havent done our job. More importantly it has to be fair to the athlete. And i think thats why were all here. My first question is for mr. Stankey. Could you very briefly tell me the differences you see between the florida law and the ncaas proposal on nil . Well, i think the challenge with what the ncaa put together is it is principle based where floridas law is operationalized. From my perspective, the florida law is is pretty effective. I think its an improvement over what youve seen out of california. We obviously through our university had an opportunity to be in conversation about that law. I think the challenge for the ncaas working group report is how to actually legislate the rules, to legislate the rules in a way that would withstand legal scrutiny, and one that would satisfy the extent, for instance, of the California Law which ive never thought is possible. And so my basis for believing there needs to be a federal law is that these differences are significant, and in particular the Effective Date of the florida law being next summer is of great significance in needing to move this law move in along in a timeefficient manner. I got you. What youre basically saying is the issue isnt necessarily the law itself and dont let me put words in your mouth it isnt necessarily the law itself, its that it need to be a nationwide law. You have to know the rule of the road for any state for my perspective, florida did what i consider to be a pretty good job. They cant preempt other saw it laws obviously and cant deal with some of the legal issues ive identified today. Okay. The agent oversight is a concern still from that law. And i think thats one of the challenges that would be present even with a federal law is how do we oversee and hold agents or representatives accountable to standards in the right sort of fashion in realtime. Got you. When senator moran had the hearing early on, a few months back, we talked about catastrophic injuries. Mr. Stankey, this is for you do you think that if we do something on nil that that would prevent are you asking us it would prevent us from doing anything else like injury fund for injured athletes . No, not at this time. Im not familiar with that exact conversation. I know of the fund. And in fact, as a conference, our institution looks toward Disability Insurance and lost value insurance if we do a bill on nil that is a national bill, you do not see that as preempting congress from doing something in some other area to help athletes outside of nil, for instance, in injuries . Ill do the the dangerous thing which is to say no, i dont. But i dont know enough of the details to be the expert at this point. No, i dont react to that negatively in this moment. Thats good enough for me. Ms. Kollar, aside from name, image, and likeness taking care of injured athletes, do you see any other issues that need to be part of a conversation this session . Well, i think weve discussed the issues in terms of compensation, but i think what needs to be part of the conversation is really Athlete Health and safety and wellbeing and National Standards in that area, as well. I think thats part of what my testimony was, that you know, we shouldnt be so rushed to simply move on nil that we forget and congress has held hearings on things like National Standards for treatment of concussions, heatstroke, sports medicine. Wee thousands of different approaches to how Athlete Health care is delivered because of its the ncaas decentralized model. What i would say is is that as you look for a National Solution and work toward a National Solution on nil you not forget these other important issues. Mr. Winston, first of all, appreciate your career. [ inaudible ] houston, mostly. Houston, cincinnati. Okay. And i dont think you weigh near what you did in your playing what i wanted to ask you is is the schedule that you laid out, it didnt include much for academics. Ive heard this from other athletes, that if youre a scholarship student that your first obligation is to that sport, and its just the nature of the beast. Im not being critical of college. What im saying is is that is it is that pretty much it . Football comes first in your case or basketball or Cross Country or whatever you might be and academics fill in the gaps . Yeah. I always somewhat joked that i was an athletic student, not necessarily a student athlete. Listen, its a tough schedule. Its something that i think we understand even coming from high school, especially if youre at a Big High School program. Theres not a lot of time for extracurriculars either. Doesnt make it okay, but i think its an understanding that youre right. You have a study hall until 9 00, and you go to bed, and then you get up at 6 00 a. M. The next day and start it again, right. And thats something that unfortunately quite frankly maybe we get used to. Some guys really thrive in that structure to be completely frank. But at the same time, youre right, its a complete balancing act every day. I just need to get from mr. Winston his College Group licensing proposal just so i can take a look at it and see im happy to send it. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, senator tester. Senator cruz. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to each of the witnesses for being here and for your good work. There are a lot of reasons People Choose to come to texas. And one of them is to play sports. And in texas, we take our sports very seriously. Indeed, espn still ranks as the greatest National Championship game ever. The game in 2005 when the Texas Longhorns and vince young stunned usc, and reggie bush heidi and i were at that game in the rose bowl, and i for one agree with the sbn that theres never been a game like it. Texas is a home to 53 colleges and universities whose student athlete compete at the end the ncaa level. 23 are division one. Of those 23 divisionone schools, six are in the power five conferences, the acc, the big ten, the big 12, the pac 12, and the sec. Four of those six are right now the reigning National Champions in at least one sport. One of the challenges of this issue that each of yall are considering is how much is it going to impact parity and competitiveness between big schools and wealthy schools and those that may not be as big and may not be as wealthy. Texas is home to a number of schools that are not in the power five. For example, the university of houston, a phenomenal Basketball School and five slamma jamma was as great collegiate program, yeah im using it as an opportunity to revel in old memories get to the point. But the university of houston is in the american athletic conference. Dr. Drake, in your opinion, should the ncaa determine an nil policy that will apply to all member schools, and how do you avoid giving additional advantages to large and wealthy programs . Well, thank you, senator, that is one of the concerns in the nil program. The issues would be large, wealthy programs, programs in urban areas versus programs in rural areas, et cetera. And these are the devilish details being worked out to try to get them as much parity as there can be. Theres not total parity as we speak, but the idea is to try to move forward to something that gives more opportunity for student athletes without disadvantaging institutions unnecessarily. But the focus on the student athlete. It seems to me that that if the ncaa is going to consider this initiative that two Guiding Principles ought to be looked to. Number one, fairness. Being fair to student athletes as student athletes undoubtedly put enormous time and energy and dedication and a great many of those student athletes are not going to go on to a professional career. And fairness is certainly important, whole lot of revenue being generated often by the quite literally the sweat of their brow. And so fairness matters, but at the same time, preserving competitiveness. I think a a test of success would be the competitiveness we see in sports today that any change in policy wouldnt significantly alter it to just draw all the money and power for a handful of schools and disadvantage the others. Hows the ncaa accounting for both of those principles, fairness and preserving competever necompe competcompetitiveness . Thank you. The fairness is extraordinarily important to us. The opportunity for student athletes is extraordinarily important. You mentioned a very important point. We at the Ohio State University have about 1,100 ncaa 2a athletes. When we think about the name, image, and likeness of individuals, would it be a handful . Its a few of them would be in that category. We think very much about what happens to the other 1,000plus athletes that we have. My wife and i have them teams over for dinner and have baseball doing this for 15 years. We get to meet our student athletes and talk about their experiences. Its a wonderful chance actually to hear what theyre experiencing, going through. I will say that i also i was a medical School Professor for years. I was dean of admission at my medical school. And i used to leek student athlete grades as they came in, and i had a i would say, gosh, if its a basketball player ill give credit to the winner because theyre traveling and playing and me trying to be smart as the son of a College Athlete. What i noticed as often as not, they would have better grades and test scores during the time that they were in season because the discipline of working i surmise, the discipline of working through what they were doing, helped a lot. We think of these as great opportunities for student athletes and want to make sure that we maintain maintain that fairness. So the three divisions are working on rules to be able to implement in a way that allows the competitive advantages to stay as fair as possible while providing opportunities for student athletes across the board. Thank you. Thank you very much, senator cruz. Senator rosen joins us remote. Well, good morning, everyone. I hope you can hear me okay. Great. Thank you. So thank you, mr. Chairman, ranking cantwell, to all of the witnesses for appearing here today. Higher education has gone through a major upheaval since the start of the coronavirus pandemic. School closures, of course forced universities and colleges to move classes on line, to cancel all of our wonderful sporting events. I think each one of us could tell senator cruz, we all have good team memories. Well have to all talk about that when we can get together at lunch. But we love our College Sports for sure. As College Athletes begin to return to campuses for voluntary traini training, kroicovid19 is on everyones mind. In the past weeks, divisionone schools have reported College Athletes testing positive for the coronavirus. Although the nc 2a has published guidelines, guidelines for restarting College Sports, its left it up to individual schools to decide on how to implement health and safety policies. So the lack of a unified response from the nc 2a may result in what we saw playing out in the states, a patchwork of mandatory and voluntary guidelines potentially resulting in spikes in transmission of the virus in some states, some schools, and not in others. And some colleges test students every week, others only when you have symptoms. And so we need a strategy generally for the coronavirus where we need a 50state strategy, one for our whole country, not a 51state strategy. We have to have a nationwide approach. So for divisionone athletics, it seems advisable to have a oneschool strategy for all those 353 schools when we combat the virus. Dr. Drake, does the nc 2a plan to issue universal coronavirus guidelines to all participating colleges and universities . Ill say this is under thank you, senator. This is under discussion actively on a daily basis. We will be talking about this later on in this week. I certainly support that. You know, youve used your oversight powers in the past, most notably in addressing sexual assault. So i believe that in extreme cases such as matters of the Global Pandemic, it shouldnt that the nc 2a should step in to provide a nationwide framework. Not all schools have the resources to develop this, and we want to protect the safety, health and safety of all our student athletes. They are our our children, and we need to be sure that if theres any longlasting effects of this virus, we dont want to expose them to a lifelong Chronic Health disease. So do you know so far if this lack of a uniform guideline, impacting peoples decisions to come back to school . No, i couldnt answer that, senator. Ill say that the policies because its a 50state organization with 1,100 schools, the Health Policies tend to be guided locally over the years. I mean, thats been the tendency. This is a new obviously evolving circumstance, and we have guidelines that weve used at our institution which i support and would recommend for everyone. As i said, the nc 2a, my colleagues and i have been discussing this on an ongoing basis as the pandemic has rolled forward. I hope that you address that because i think that having a level Playing Field, were talking about sports here, would be great at all universities, colleges, whoever is part of under your umbrella, youre operating off the same set of rules. Makes a lot of sense. Were going to build off what people have spoken about before, just the remaining time that i have. We know that given the Time Commitment that athletes spend in practice, training, traveling for their respective sport, and the comparatively small amount of time they spend in the classroom, is there a case to be made that some athletes are no longer amateurs, and should we be reconsidering how we define student athletes, and how do we ensure that given these demands college and universities are giving student athletes the realistic time they need to have a quality education thats going to serve them the rest of their lives . And dr. Drake, you can go ahead and answer again, please. Thank you very much. We believe very much in the student part of student athlete as commissioner stankey and others have said. Our student athletes graduate at an even higher rate than the general student body. For them to maintain their eligibility, they have to maintain progress through school. And we support that and think about that all the time. Its been an avenue toward getting to school for so many students. We appreciate that. An avenue toward staying in school for so many. An avenue toward graduating from school for so many. And thats an important part of our work. Well, i appreciate all of your work. And we want to set all of our students up for success after they graduate. And thats the purpose of this hearing today. Thank you. Thank you very much, senator rosen. Senator moran. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Thank you to you and the Ranking Member for conducting this hearing, thank you for the opportunity you gave senator blumenthal and i to have a hearing february 11th related to this topic of nil. And now, at this hearing, perhaps more broadly, just the care and wellbeing of student athletes. Let me start ive got so many questions and so little time. Mr. Stankey or mr. Carter, i want to talk about the a5 conferences. The requirement for providing health care, its my understanding that among the reforms that came about, i think in 2015, theres a requirement that a5 schools must provide medical care to former student athletes for at least two years after graduation. Under this kind of under this requirement, what kind of care, what kind of costs are covered, and should the whats the magic number about two years is there any suggestion or belief that it should last longer than that . I dont know the exact expenditure, so ill allow keith to share perspective from a campus. Youre correct that we did at the autonomy five level adopt that legislation. Debated about two years, as i recall, generated from discussion at a state level and the pac 12 conference introduced the original concept which we all supported. And in fact, even without legislation, we have provided medical care at a campus level for student athletes post eligibility. Thats more a habit than a requirement thats taken place over the years prior to the legislation which as you note it does now exist. Yes, and ill just does that cover all student athletes . The new rule did. Thats right. Okay. Anything further on that . Ill just piggyback on that briefly. You know, obviously for us, were here to talk about student athletes. And i think for this particular issue its the right thing to do. And i think for us, were going to make sure that our student athletes are healthy. We want to make sure that we talk to them in the recruiting process about how this is a family and we want to take care of you and the things that you need to get done. We want to make sure that we come forward at the end, as well. I think its a great policy. With commissioner stankey, im not exactly sure on why the two years was part of the policy. Certainly we want to take care of our student athletes. Let me turn to transferring to other schools. My understanding is that in most circumstances, after transferring to a different institution, the student athlete must sit out for a year before becoming eligible to play again. Is there a belief that thats the appropriate requirement . Do you think that a student athlete should be able to transfer without having to sit out for that year . If not, in one circumstances do you believe that would be appropriate . And i would welcome the comments of any of our witnesses. Were clearlily moy lmoving direction. There are five sports, really three with which i deal withing football, mens womens, they have the requirements, the others will have the ability to have an exception to the rule. By john, the ncaa nationally has said that it will entertain or review legislation to alter that oneyear transfer withholding. We have just removed a set of restrictions on communication to free up communication destination and Financial Aid once you transfer. I think that was a good first step. This next consideration needs to consider issues like academics. I think thats an important part of the transfer world. I also believe the team to which an individual is transferring and those student athletes have to be considered in how you prepare a team and collect a team. But ive certainly indicated openness to the change that youve identified which is the removal of the residence requirement. I think there are some considerations that need to be introduced rapidly so that we can solve this problem sooner rather than later. I have several other questions, but i i welcome anybody else who has a quick comment on this one. Who wants to volunteer . Dont encourage him, mr. Chairman. I want to ask about skeps. Whats the most common reason that a student athletes scholarship is revoked . And are there circumstances in which if you told us why an athletes scholarship was revoked that we would find that objectionable . Are they always revoked for what would seem too the average american, to us on this committee, which may not be the same thing as average americans, let me go back to average americans, would they find it objectionable for the way that student athletes are treated in regard to maintain their scholarships and the circumstances in which they might be revoked . Yeah, i would say that probably a couple of reasons. One would be an academic reason. One would be that if they were not fulfilling their academic requirement, thats obviously a reason. Then certainly if there was a disciplinary reason that reached a level that we deemed that the student athlete did not need to be at our university, those are probably the main two reasons. But obviously, you know, most of the time student athletes are there. They have that scholarship, and theyre going to be able to have that throughout their career. Senator, i think that most americans would be surprised at the circumstances under which student athletes keep their scholarship. That its not something that that play on the field has removed from them and that we bring them and support them through their educations routinely. Thank you for that answer. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, chairman moran. And senator blackburn, are you with us . Im with you. Thank you so much. You are recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i thank you for the hearing today on this. But i will tell you for our guests that are there, and we thank you for the time that youre giving us, it ought not to take a another congressional hearing to have the ncaa address nil issues. And as chairman moran mentioned, in is the second time we have had a hearing on this, and we had dr. Emmert in front of us earlier this year for what proved to be a very unsatisfactory hearing and approach. So i want to do some yes and no questions, and mr. Carter, were going to start with you. Full disclosure, my son ran Cross Country there at ole miss. My daughter is also an ole miss grad. But let me work through a series of questions and just starting with you, going all way through the list to mr. Winston. Simple yes or no. Do you believe student athletes should be able to profit from their nil . Yes or no . Yes. Okay, mr. Drake . Sorry, yes. Got it. Yes. Im working on moving to a yes. Yes. Okay. All right. Thank you. And second question, has the ncaa adequately handled the situation . Again, mr. Carter, start with you. Yes or no . Not yet, no. Okay. Not completed, so you know, were in process. No. A work in progress. No. Okay. And the third question will a patchwork of states laws be problematic . Yes. Yes. Not as much as they say. It will, yes. I agree with miss kollar, its overstated the issues that will happen from a patchwork. Okay. Well, what we know is that the ncaa has not adequately addressed this, they have dodone a patchwork would present some problems. And that student athletes should be able to be compensated for their name, image, and likeness. Lets see. Mr. Carter and mr. Stankey, let me come to you. And ms. Kollar touched on this, with putting things in legislation. Being little bit prescriptive, and i think weve all looked at the report that came from the ncaa, and that was not satisfactory to say here are guidelines, we may or may not take a vote. That is not addressing the issue. I think you all have to agree, this is an issue thats gotten away from you. So mr. Carter and then to mr. Stankey, how can Congress Help ensure accountability and transparency in this legislation, in nil legislation, expecting that the ncaa is not going to on their own come up with something . So how do we ensure accountability, how do we ensure transparency in this . Well, i think obviously thats why were here today, to talk about a lot of these potential solutions. And i think that weve outlined a framework that makes a lot of sense. There are certainly things that we need to be cautious of, and we talked about those. But i do think that putting our foot on base at some point obviously we have a time frame. You know, weve got about 12 months before this goes into into effect in florida. So you know, i think that doing that and then certainly, you know, coming back to what where does the final enforcement and monitoring lie. And i think that ends up with a hybrid, you know, a hybrid approach where the ncaa is involved, congress is involved, and ultimately probably a third party is involved to help administer this when its said and done. Can you think that there do you think that there should be a morality clause included in legislation so that there would be a way to deal with bad actors . Absolutely, yeah. I think were going to have to anticipate those type of things. I think that certainly with the recruiting issues, potential issues that weve talked about with agents and different people that are going to be involved in the process, i think theres got to be some guardrails there to protect against that. Okay. Mr. Stankey . I think keith identified the need for a third party. I would absolutely be open to that approach. As currently structured, im not convinced the ncaa enforcement model is designed to handle this issue in realtime. Where that authority rests i think remains for conversation. And i think it is an important conversation. So you see a third party as opposed to a committee from the ncaa handling this . Senator, im open to that. Ive not seen other models that solve the problem beyond that part of the conversation. Thank you. Yield back. Thank you, senator blackburn. Senator blumenthal . Thanks, mr. Chairman. We come here in the context of a history of athletes unfortunately being used as profit centers. They are a source of revenue to the colleges. Very often they are unable to benefit from their name, image, and likeness. By now i think weve thoroughly established it in this committee through our subcommittee hearing back in february and now in this one. But theres just abundant evidence of profiting by schools at the expense of athletes. It may be for causes that are regarded as worthwhile like financing other sports or the cause of athleticism and the university in general. But i think the question for us is how do we protect the athletes. How do we make sure that they are not maybe inadvertently victims of the process that puts them behind profits . And i not the latest example, frankly, are these waivers. Senator booker and i have introduced legislation that essentially would prohibit them. And president drake, you and i spoke yesterday about the buckeye pledge. Ive since reviewed it. I know in good faith you told me it was a pledge. But it says very explicitly t t that, quote, i understand that although the university is following the coronavirus guidelines issued by the cdc and other experts to reduce the spread of infection, i can never be completely shielded from all risk of illness caused by covid19 or other infections. And then it goes on to say that the signer and the athlete signs this document, acknowledges that, quote, these expectations and pledge are condition of my participation, et cetera. The other pledges are even more explicit, university of tennessee which we have, for example, university of missouri, i understand were trying to get smu. But all of them, as the university of missouri says, quote, i pledge to accept the responsibility to abide by these guidelines in order to keep myself, my teammates, et cetera, safe. They use the word risk, and they provide for an assumption of risk by the athlete. That is in effect a waiver from my standpoint as a lawyer. And i guess my question to the panel is, isnt it unethical to ask a College Athlete to assume the risk of participating which has the effect of waiving rights in court if that athlete becomes sick and if his or her future is in peril, not to mention their health. If they are affected by coronavirus, isnt that unethical, and shouldnt it be illegal . Dont you think that the measure that senator booker and i have introduced should be passed forbidding these kind of waivers . We can begin with you or or any of you. Let me speak maybe first, and senator blumenthal, i appreciate your question and our conversation. Ill say that i dont support a waiver or assumption of risk in a legal sense. What we want to do is to make sure that people are behaving in a responsible fashion to protect themselves and their community. And on behalf of Ohio State University, if any athlete ever sued, youre an institution you would say no rights have been foregone or waived or sacrificed. I certainly would say that as a result of this yes, period. I would say that we would not want this anyone to sign any of their i hope your lawyers agree with you. Well, i hope so, too. Again, our goal was to make sure the students took their individual behavior as the important thing that they were going to follow to make sure they were doing what they could to floengtsz. Tator, senator blumenthal. Senator thank you, senator blum. Senator . Thank you for being here. When the question was asked should athletes be able to be compensated for their name, image, and likeness and you said youre leaning toward trying to get to yes, im with you. Im trying to get to yes here, but im a realist and realize this trains life the station, and weve got to do it right. Briefly, i have several concerns. One is on the title 9 issue. Many of you mentioned this in your statements. I am concerned wfor the women athletes. My daughter was division one, i was one back in the day myself. Weve come a long way obviously since the 70s. But i am concerned of what i could see as developing inequities in the ability to earn from your name, image, and likeness, for a female athlete as opposed to the more higher profile sports that the male athletes are playing. Mr. Stankey, ill ask everybody a question on that. Its a bit of a hypothesis. And my assumption is football being what football is, there will be a great deal of this activity driven there. Weve had Womens Basketball teams win National Championships, to play at the same time in the National Championship contest with highly prominent young women involved, gymnastics on our Network Every friday night has drawn attention. But i am concerned that the amount of nil activity around football and mens basketball will pull away funding from womens sports. Ms. Kollar . Senator, i think this is an area where theres just a gender equity opportunity. Title 9 of course does not apply at all to name, image, and likeness deals provided by third parties. If colleges get involved which i dont think anybody on this panel supports wed have a title 9 problem, a direct title 9 problem. The types of deals we talked about now present no title 9 issue. In terms of promoting gender equity generally, the main time when women athletes can profit from their name, image, and likeness is in College Sports. They very often dont have professional opportunities. I think the sec is a great example. These women can really monetize what they have, and i think it would promote gender equity, not hinder it. Doctor . Yes thank you, senator. Yeah. We in our principles that weve brought forward right preserving the gains weve made and continuing to move forward in this area is important in anything that has developed in a members likeness. Mr. Stankey, though, well see. I hope not, but i have no faith its going to be a 50 50 deal here. Yeah, just quickly, i think that there are going to be if we can get to the framework that we hope to get to, there will be hopefully an equal opportunity for both men and women. I think that there were some models that came out maybe last month that showed some of the highpropile athletfile athlet their market might be, and women gymnasts based on social media correct. Where i think individually, you know, women could do vrl well, but i do kind of echo what the commissioner said, that i do think it could potentially take away from the overall aspect of womens sports. All right. Did you have a comment . Yes. Thank you, senator. One thing to remember, too, is the nil is incremental. Were not taking from the pie, were trying to add to it in allowing the players and athletes to use their likeness to benefit more. So i want to make sure that thats out there. And then number two, i agree with miss kollar. I think when you look at female athletes, they might be at the height of their market ability and to produce to produce profit for themselves or benefit from themselves whether its in social media or appearances, especially when you think about certain sports that dont have professional ranks yet. I appreciate that. And i thank you for that perspective. I do think that if the male athlete has the pro leagues ahead of him, its in his best interests to even really ramp himself up in college in terms of his worth through social media and other things, performance to be able to hey, this guy, you know, hes going to bring it in. Hes going to sell the tickets and all that stuff. I have skepticism around this particular question. My other issue is the agents. I mean, we read every day about some College Athlete who has parents have been moved to the city, shoe deals, shirt deals, the ncaa is not really able to police that as efficiently and as effectively and i understand they are you know, theyre cracking down, there have been highprofile cases. You know, when does the agent approach the athlete . When theyre in ninth grade . When does the agent approach the athlete on campus to help them . I mean, this to me is you know, i want to be yes, i want to be yes, but i think this is going to be an issue on campus. Mr. Stankey, do you have even earlier. It is an important part of the conversation, the oversight of agents is important. We have a uniform agent act, thats it enforcement varies from state to state depending on where that enforcement responsibility is signed and how its funded. We have had those issues arise in my conference where people are trying to go through a back door. If there can be sunshine and transparency brought to the relationships, thats healthy. But how far back with that go . And i would simply observe the activity around zion williamson, i dont know the details. I simply know what ive read in the media where there are lawsuits around marketing deals after his eligibility at duke. He had a year to plan whether people like one and done, you had a year to plan and prepare. Its still difficult even in that circumstance. Its not going to be easier for a 16 or 17yearold. No, its not. Thank you. Commissioner stankey, this agents law is a suggested uniform state law that is adopted or not adopted by the 50 states. Is that what youre saying . Thats the existing uniform agent act. I think the focus for this conversation has been sparta, which is a federal law. I will confess to not being an expert. But as ive been identified as a potentially more effective pandemic mitchell were try to to get up to speed thon that. Senator sullivan . Thank you. A really important topic. An interesting topic. A hard topic. I love College Athletics, i think we all do. Its a great part of our universities and our american culture. But my question is going to just just one question really for all the panelists. It really is just expanding on what the senator caputo is asking about. You know, the way in which were moving forward or looks like were moving forward, on the nil issues, are we thinking enough about either whatever you want to call it, inequities or unintended consequences, in different categories . Let me throw out just three, and then ill throw the question open to all the panelists. What senator caputo mentioned, the male female sports and title 9 issues. The second is what about smaller divisions, smaller universities, right. We have ohio state here, obviously big ten. But you know, my state great state of alaska is wonderful College Athletics. But not always in the conferences that get the big tv deals. And then even more fundamentally, you know, the mission of the University System and colleges which we have in america and its a great advantage of ours, right, so many great universities throughout our country relative to any other country. But its about higher education. About educating americans. And i i have the privilege of sitting on the board of visitors for the u. S. Naval academy, part of my duties on the Armed Services committee. And you know, we discuss a lot this issue of education, leadership, character, and then balancing College Athletics which at the Naval Academy are serious. But you never in my view, you dont want to create an institution that emphasizes College Athletics so much that you start to actually undermine the more Important Mission which i think we would all agree on which is education, character, leadership, over the next generation of americans. So thats a broad question. Ill throw it out to all the panelists. But id like you to take a crack at it. Unintended consequences on those areas that i just mentioned, and potentially inequities, not just male female, but big school, small school who will go first . Ill jump in. I think there are unintended consequences or unimagine sudden probably a better phrase because the need to think about this even while we have a time deadline looming because of state law becoming effective, it needs to be considered. I think the educational aspect when young people talk about their time demands, which by the way they said to me id love to have those time depends right now because im been disrupted in my spring. But you add running your own business effectively, your name, image, and likeness business on top. If youre stressed now between athletics and academics and now you have Economic Activity on top of that, im concerned about where that time is going, im concerned it comes from academics. I think that is a proper conversation, and i shared earlier the message it sends thats right. This is your economic opportunity. Where we have viewed whether you faulted or not, that we will educate you, help you grow as a leader and a person through your educational experience. As i said before, were not perfect in that. We do that very well. And i spent 11 years of my career in the one aa world of football, fcs is a smaller State University in small towns. And i still represent small towns in the sec. Those economic demands are going to vary from place to place. And if i was still commissioner of the south end conference, i think the schools will ask how would we manage with the student athletes. How do they manage the relationships and the Economic Activity is added to the relational issues in a Small College community. Those are real challenges under this concept. Senator id say that i think as i said before, i think we do a lot in the name of sports, were overly restricted in restraints. I would say that every student on campus currently that is not an athlete enjoys these rights. And campuses are well positioned to work with student athletes, to councsel them on time management. We do that in higher ed every day. I know from my kids being a social Media Influencer or a instagram star is a career. These student athletes can learn to balance these things, and this can be a longterm entry into productive employment for them. And finally on the title 9 issue, again, this really has the possibility of enhancing gender equity and drawing a spotlight on to womens sports where it hasnt existed before. Ill go next, senator, if you dont mind. Sure. Theres a theres a perceived seems like fallacy going on right now that there is is already massive inequity in the College Athletic system. Look at the facilities at ohio state compared to ohio university. Ole miss compared to southern miss. Theres massive disparities already. So acting as if were going to give College Students some rights to make money as if thats going to create some massive inequity in the system that already has a massive recruiting and inequity is a fallacy being perpetrated not intentionally by the members here or the witnesses here, im saying that it seems like were pretending that there is some sort of equity across the Playing Field of College Athletics right now that simply did not exist. Just simply look at the facilities of some of these bigtime colleges compared to the smaller d1 colleges, ut to university of houston even. Theres massive differences here. And i would also say theres a little bit of i dont know if hypocrisy is the right word, that were asking kids to sign wafers, to deal with an epidemic. But yet their pandemic, but yet they cant balance tweeting something out for 100 and still go to class. So i want to give the College Athletes, while he has the balance and she has to balance a lot, more credit than that, and point out that inequity that already exists in the system and that this nil would be incremental and not take away from anything that currently happens. Thank you. Other members of the panel may want to supplement their answers to senator sullivans question. Senator scott. Thanks for being here. I was governor of florida from 2011 to 2018, and one thing we did was focus on the University System and State College system on results. So we actually allocated 580 million to our University System primarily tied to three things. What it costs to get a degree, we knew our students were going to get degrees. Number two, did you get a job, and how much money do you make . My understanding is the ncaa keeps track of Graduation Rates but not, you know, with people who are employed afterwards or how much money do they make . So do i look at this, anything were going to do, it ought to be tied to somebody having success. And that means being employed having a job after school and making as much money as as theyre interested in making. So what do you think about that, and do you think that makes any sense . If were going to do anything, shouldnt it be tied to job creation and the compensation after graduation . The ncaa just released a Gallup Survey that tracked i think satisfaction. I think some of that was job success for student athletes which was by comparatives higher than the student population. Im not an expert on that report, but it was released last week. For the Southeastern Conference, when i began as commissioner, one of our issues was how do we help young people transition in their careers and our universities have led in that, Vanderbilt University through an Internship Program during the summer rather than just being in Summer School to prepare people for that transition. We have a career tour that unfortunately was disrupted in the spring where we would have been in dallas, texas, with a group of football student athletes introducing them to Corporate Leaders there, and weve had success in exploring what is really a new activity for a Conference Office for that purpos purpose, senator. Id say at ohio state and president of ohio state for six years, i was the chancellor at university of california irvine for nine years. So different level of competitive focus there. Id say at ohio state when we arrived, we actually changed the athletic directors contract so he was compensated for the job placement eor going to graduate school or serving in the military for student athletes when they finish rather than for success at olympic sports. We think thats critically important. Thats great. I didnt know that. Ill just add, too, i think im short term ad at ole miss in the first year. Doing recruiting to parents and potential student athletes, we always talk about we want you to come in and be a part of our family. Were going to put you in a position to succeed. And that means not only getting a degree but getting a meaningful degree. Something that you can go out after you finish your playing days and be successful. And as i mentioned to the group earlier, with our class last year that graduated, we placed 100 of those into jobs. Some were professional athletes, others going into just the normal working world. But thats what thats what its all about. If theres any way we can tie back any of this potential legislation to that education piece, im all for it. Thank you. Thank you, senator scott. The term booster is a term of art under the ncaa. Dr. Drake, what in short is a booster . I think its someone who supports the Athletic Program and the term of art is used because sometimes that support can be overly aggressive. Would you support legislation as we move to nil to prohibit boosters from paying student athletes for nil . Again, a term of art and broadly described. But i would say that any compensation for nil should be market based and appropriate. If i could use the term boosterism is on make the term larger. When one got beyond normal marketbased support, then that would be the thing that id be concerned about. Well, i think you dr. Drake, you said you think it will end up that a handful of student athletes will benefit from nil if this goes forward. And it appears its going forward. Could you put a percenta agage that . Yeah. Ill say this weve heard about group licenses which would be a different thing, which would potentially benefit more. I was thinking more of individual licenses and the number of athletes that we have that are have a marketable image. Then those who might make it on social medias influence you have 22 starters on a football team. How many would you be able to name . You know, if i asked forgive me, senator, not to reverse the questions. In our own university offensive tackles. Yeah. We liked we would we think that the real potential might be for, again, a handful, threefourths students might be able to do commercials or those types of things. Mr. Carter, what do you think . Just a handful . Yes. I think overall its probably a handful that end up with larger sponsorship deals. I think its nuanced. You could have the offensive guard that you reference that maybe it doesnt isnt as well known. Back in their hometown, they are well known. So they could go back to their hometown and do something that maybe they couldnt currently do now. So i think it could extend a little farther than maybe just the nationally recognized players because i think theres an opportunity for some other people back with their own constituencies. Well, sflnts it eas isnt it envision a hometown guy or gal having some sort of little sweet deal in every little hometown . And it approaches pay for play pretty quick. Yes. Absolutely. And i think thats where the proper structure and the proper framework has got to be in place where we do have kind of that hybrid approach where ncaas working with, you know, working with congress, working with this third party, and certainly with our athletics departments to talk about compliance and making sure that were following the right protocols and procedures. If any of you want to follow on, ill ask ms. Kollar first. Ln that collegiate women players had significant opportunities to monetize their fame and popularity. Would you give us some examples of that so that we can understand it . Yeah. I think the card dealership Hometown Hero model is an give us for instances, and i was particularly interested in your point that collegiate women players had a significant opportunities to monotize their opportunities. Will you give us examples . I think car dealership is an outdated model. But if you look at women athletes, kaitlyn from ucla, she could have really monotized that. She could have been an instagram influencer, social media star. Started a youtube channel. These are things that my kids could explain to you probably better than i can, but this is where women athletes can really use digital platforms to launch brands, to create brands, nutrition podcasts. There are any number of things. If you look at ncaa waivers on this issue that is in the board of governors report, you can see women athletes trying to seek waivers so that they can do these types of things, so maybe women athletes arent going to necessarily be endorsing the car dealerships, but they are going to have a viral are you teach, a great softball game, something where they can take their personality, elevate their sport and elevate themselves. Do you agree with dr. Drake that this will affect only a handful, or do you think as on the surface, i imagine, this is going to be almost everybody by the time its over with . Yeah, i think when we have discussions on this, we tend to focus on the super, super stars in the recognition sports. Whats exciting about name likeness is that this opens up new frontiers. Students from small schools, from underappreciated sports. Again, women sports. People can become stars on the internet that maybe arent stars that you and i always see. So i think actually there are many, many more athletes that could capitalize on these rights. 50 . 70 . Its hard to put a number on it. I would say if the restrictions are lifted, whats happening is that the free market goes to work. So 50 or more, i think students will try. I think they will try and launch their podcast. I think they will try and become instagram influencers. I think they will try and take advantage of these rights that in some cases can lead to longterm careers because i think that the lift is so easy when were talking about digital platforms, so i think its far greater than a handful. Whether its half or 75 , i dont know. I think a lot of people will try. How many will succeed, the market will sort out. Who was this example you mentioned i think at ohio state . I mentioned kaitlyn ohashi. The gymnast from ucla. From ucla. Okay. Without embarrassing her, what do you think she could have received had she been able to monotize her success on social media . Im going to defer to mr. Winston to talk about numbers. What i can say is you can look at the millions of views that she got for that one floor are you theen that w routine that on twitter. So you can be paid 400, 200, you can be paid for social media posts. Its a great way to make a living. I think after that went viral, she could have had a lot of dinlg digital endorsements, a lot of brick and mortar type situations. I think mr. Winston can put a number on it better than i could, but if you look at the millions of views she had, she could have turned that into real dollars. Well take an answer from mr. Winston. Were going to take a second round, senator blumenthal, so youll be recognized next. Mr. Winston, you want to weigh in on an estimate of how she might have monetized her i dont think anybody can be certain because the market hasnt been available. But if you look at influencers, professional influencer, not even just athletes, but other entertainers or people that have built a followings, you know, we could be talking about several thousand dollars into like a small five figure amount because of that following and what miss koller is saying is right on. And it is nuanced. As mr. Carter said as well. If somebody said when i was in college, hey, ill give you 100 to tweet something out, an ad for a local restaurant, that would have been great, too. So i think when we talk about what kind of compensation will be available for how many people, it is a wideranging scale. But mrs. Koller is spot on, that technology will be driving a lot of this for a lot of people because obviously their audiences will be similar aged and they will be able to create content themselves, and the list really goes on to the possibilities. If i had the money as a local businessman and i could do it, i would want to pay 100 to every member of the Ole Miss Football Team to tweet something out on my behalf. I just wonder if thats where were headed. Possibly. Obviously its impossible to see the future. Im not sure if youre referring to some sort of a payforplay scheme. I dont look at it like that. But obviously if theres a local restaurant that wants to associate itself with the offensive line, perhaps. Obviously, have an appearance at the offensive line at their restaurants pumping up their steaks or their ribs would probably be with a good venture for them. Or even simply instagram a picture of them eating at the restaurant or being in front of the restaurant or whatever. Theres so many different ways to do this actually in a very stream lipd and time efficient way now that i dont think anybody has realized maybe all the possibilities that are out there. Thank you very much. Senator blumenthal. Round two. Thanks, mr. Chairman. Thank you again for the hearing and for the second round. I just want to pursue this line of questioning because it is so immediately concerning. According to a june 26th vice robbed report, and im quoting, more than 150 players at Ncaa Division i sports have tested positive for coronavirus. These numbers are almost certainly lower than the actual number, because only 64 of the 130 relevant schools are publicly reporting their positive covid19 cases. Just as were seeing astronomic rises in certain states among the general population, were seeing unquestionably rising numbers among College Athletes reporting back to school. Number one, id like to ask mr. Drake, will you commit to requiring all colleges to disclose the number of covid19 cases that occur at your schools. Yeah, i mean, thats hipaa and other issues are infect. So i think that disclosing information is useful. So you will commit to requiring them to report those cases. I dont know that i commit to requiring. Forgive me, senator. The commit to require the disclosure of the number of positive covid19 cases. Im just, dont want to be difficult. Who would i commit i dont know what authority id have to to disclose publicly. To require them to report and for you to disclose publicly. I believe its appropriate for the schools to report. And with proper privacy protections for the individuals in place, i think thats a reasonable thing. General numbers, they should be reporting. On the issue of waivers, is there anyone here who does not support the legislation that that would prohibit waiver rights on the part of College Athletes if they contract covid19 . Ill just tell you our experience at ole miss. We did not ask our student athlete to sign a waiver when they came back and all workouts are voluntary. We felt like the procedures and protocols we put in place are very good. What we found is when student athletes returns is we had a few positive cases as they spent time together, the cases spiked some. Now were seeing it go back down. I think theyre starting to realize the protocols are needed. They need to do you saw some positive cases. We did, yes, sir. But again, i think our protocols were there. What we did, we tested for both covid and antibodies when they arrived. From there, we base the tests on symptoms. But you would support what youve introduced as the college pandemic safety act to address this concern that the colleges are asking them to waive rights. I understand that you have not asked any for any such waiver, but you would not have a problem with the legislation. Well, i would probably have to know more about the legislation to put my foot on basis. But based on our actions, we did not require the waiver and will not require the waiver. I understand that the ncaa preemption over state laws concerning athlete compensation and guardrails for athlete earning streams. And in addition, would like an antitrust exception and to be the oversight body and regulator of nil deals. In the past, the ncaa has really, in many ways, failed to protect the athletes. You wouldnt it be better, mr. Drake, to have an independent body to oversee these deals, rather than have the ncaa do it . I would support that continuing discussions about how the oversight would be done and would be open to an independent body being part of that, sure. Let me ask you, professor koller, what do you think about those issues, antitrust, oversight, independence and so forth . I strongly oppose an antitrust exemption for ncaa for the fact what weve seep in recent antitrust cases its produced good for student athletes. What mr. Carter talked about with increased food availability, stipends, cost of attendance, this is as a result of antitrust cases and i think thats an important accountability check on the free market and on the ncaa. But second of all, i dont think they should get a blank check here because we dont know yet exactly what theyre going to do. The board of governors report is very squishy, as i would say to my law students in terms of principles. Thaf had years to come up with pointed, guiding, concrete steps. We dont have that. What they are asking for now in their report is a broadbased antitrust exemption, which would be extraordinary even in sports. Well, it would be certainly extraordinary in College Athletics as you well know. Nhl, Major League Baseball and so forth have antitrust exemptions. Thats with the presence of a union. Thats where athletes have a voice. Thats a very, very different scenario than what we have here. Thats an excellent point and in fact, in my view, those antitrust exceptions ought cob ought to be reviewed and scrutinized because they are highly exceptional. I think it could be argued that the leagues have failed to live up to public interest, trust, that they are conditioned on. I have more questions. Ill submit them for the record. Id like these waivers to be submitted for the record. Without objection, that will be done. I would like to ask every one of the witnesses first of all, let me say on the record, that i would like your response in writing on this legislation. I understand that only mr. Carter expressed any objection here. In asking to review it. Independent the others my want to review it as well. If you would give me your views, i would greatly appreciate it. I would like for the witnesses to submit to me any other waiver documents that you become aware of. This will apply, i think, particularly to mr. Sankey and mr. Drake. Thank you, senator blumenthal. Clearly, questions for the record will be submitted by senators, including senator blumenthal, and witnesses will be asked to cooperate in getting us a timely response. Thank you very much. Our next questioner is senator moran for round two. Thank you for the second round. Let me express my gratitude to you and your cooperation with our subcommittee and senator blumenthal, the Ranking Member of our subcommittee for our dealings on this topic. Its a difficult one that does absolutely need our attention. I just have one question. I want to have a better understanding of the financial consequences to Athletic Departments. Better understanding of what im talking about legislation dealing with nil, what that legislation might mean to nonrevenuegenerating sports. And im asking this question of all of our witnesses. My understanding is that looking at 2018 financial data, that was developed by usa today, the publication, only 12 of 230 Athletic Departments analyzed, produced a profit on an annual basis. The remaining departments received Additional Support from other sources such as their institution student fees or state support. Approximately 91 of Athletic Departments received over 1 million in support. For nearly 80 of the departments, that support accounted for more than a quarter of their revenue. So the question is how does nil legislation affect the financial circumstances of an Athletic Department . Is it positive, negative . Why would it have a consequence for the departments revenues, either positive or negative . What should we be worried about when it comes to the consequences of nil legislation for nonrevenue producing sports . Should we go down the line . That would be fine, mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Carter. I think the answer and the answer and the hope is that it would be a neutral effect. I think if we could find the right framework that the money, as mr. Winston mentioned, would be new revenue. However, i do think that using our market as an example, a small market where our media rights partner may go out to a local sponsor to do a sponsorship through our partnership, well, that sponsor may then have a decision to make. We want the best for our student athletes and if that wasnt the direction they went, were all for that. But it would decrease the amount coming into the department which could have trickle down effects toe some of our sports and some of our programming. Again, unintended consequences, things weve talked about a lot, but there could be some of those we dont foresee. Dr. Drake. I would expect it to be neutral because third party money coming in from outside. Ive overseen two programs. One a highresource program and one a deficit program of 10 or 11 million a year. Ive seep it both ways. This should be money coming in from the outside. Professor koller, College Athletics is going going to be a multibillion dollar business for the universities and the media, whether this goes through or not. Correct . Thats correct. And in response to the senators question, what i think is to the extent that, and i think the colleagues here on the panel said its not clear that it could affect not revenue sports, but to the effect that we have problematic effects, then College Athletic departments need to be better stewards of their budgets. Maybe look at the salaries for strength and conditioning coaches and support your Volleyball Team instead. Mr. Sankey. Finally forgot to press the button. We support our programs very well across the board in the Southeastern Conference. But weve also had questions about the range of College University programs. It will not be simply a neutral impact across the board. Mr. Carter describes the Third Party Rights activity that happens with local advertising sales. Is that an impact, sure but in the scope of billions and billions, probably not the largest impact. Yet, were here talking about the range of division i, ii and iii universities and others where it will be impacted because its not an unlimited pool of resources locally. What happens in social media is a different world. Thats almost a different conversation. But the local impact we transition to one of the earlier conversations will be felt and it will depend on the scope of the program to be able to identify the results. Were also in a really interesting economic time to make predictions about what will or wont happen. Certainly true. Mr. Winston. Thank you, senator. I would say neutral to add it. Obviously when you think about how much money the programs, are making from video games, thats zero dollars. How much theyre making from trading cars, being able to license their marks to trading with zero dollars. So thats completely additive. Obviously if a student athlete is tweeting something or doing something thats you know, thats additive to them, i would even submit on the sponsorship front that mr. Carter brought up, ive heard that and i understand the argument. I would also say, though, that when you combine the player marks on the School Sponsorship front, thats even more valuable. Its valuable on both sides. You can look at professional sports on the sponsorship model. Theyll tell you if you have the athlete with the professional marks, thats worth more. So again, i would say at the least its going to be neutral. But i think its having people be creative and i think will be additive for both sides. Thank you, senator moran. Let me ask, in terms of agents, does anyone wish to weigh in on the question of whether an agent should be able to approach a High School Athlete before he signs with a college or university . Any opinions on that . Mr. Winston, surely you have an idea on that. No, i would agree with that. You wouldnt want agents in this process, especially at the high school level. Obviously when youre talking about a star player that would be considered in some sort of deal, right, you would want professional representation, or at least the family would want professional representation, whether that be a lawyer or an agent. But you know, i think we can probably all agree that anything, any sort of this is a previous remark. We wouldnt want to see any inducements to go to college from that. Now i wouldnt want those words used against me on the trivia tiff side. Obviously the markets going to dictate certain behavior. At the same time, i wouldnt want a college or someone saying to a player obviously youll make this much money if you come here. Anybody else want the weigh in on this issue of agents . I think were about finished, senator blumenthal. Dr. Drake, i understand you have been president emeritus now for some 12 hours and 20 minutes. Is that correct . And i assume based on how you look that it was a rather modest retirement party. Covid, yes. Yes. Covid controlled, yes. Thank you very much. And mr. Carter. Does the date february 14th, 1998, mean anything to you . It does. How many threepointers did you get against the university of kentucky in that 7364 victory . Several. Well, youll be allowed to submit that question for the record. I want to thank the panel for a very interesting and i think important hearing and for providing us with quite a bit of expert testimony. As i alluded earlier, the hearing record will remain open for two weeks. During this time, senators are asked to submit any questions for the record upon receipt. The witnesses are requested to submit their written answers to the committee as soon as possible, but by no later than wednesday, july 15th, 2020. And with that, i conclude the hearing. I thank the witnesses and this hearing is adjourned. [indiscernible conversations] weeknights this month were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight a look back at the 1960 president ial elections with the nixonkennedy debates, the first ever televised president ial debates. Barbara perry, president ial director at university of Virginia Miller center talks about how the debates came to be, the issues, the candidates, and how the debates created public expectations for later president ial campaigns. Watch tonight at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv every weekend on cspan3. The first president ial debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President joe biden is tuesday night at 9 00 eastern from cleveland. Watch live on cspan3. Biden is recklessly campaigning against the vaccine. Its really reckless. All it is for political reasons, political reasons. Biden, his whole deal is c catastrophic shutdown. Again, in his own words recorded by bob woodward, the president knew back in february that this was an extremely dangerous communicable disease. Think about it. How many people across how many empty chairs at tables because of his negligence and selfishness. Watch the first president ial debate live from cleveland tuesday night on cspan3. Stream live or on demand at cspan. Org debates. Listen live on the cspan radio app. Who will control congress in january . Stay informed on all the competitive congressional races leading up to election day with cspans campaign 2020 coverage. Watch the candidates debate and Election Results on cspan. Watch online at cspan. Org, or listen on the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. With the ongoing Global Pandemic and many schools shifting to online learning, cspan student cam competition continues to provide students with a platform to engage in a national conversation. Were asking middle and High School Students to produce a five to sixminute spri to explore the issue you most want the president and new congress to address in 2021. The framers of the constitution were invested in giving american citizens justice, including those that commit crimes as shown in the 5th and 8th amendments. From them to present day, there have still been issues with equality in the criminal justice system. It needs reform. When youth are given the opportunity and skills to become informed voters and engaged citizens, they vote, because democracy must be learned. From inequity and waits for legal documents to a tumultuous pathway to citizenship, children who were born here or parents who illegally migrated here, the immigration system fails many people. This year awarding 100,000 in total cash prizes, including a grand prize of 5,000. The deadline to submit videos is january 20th, 2021. For competition rules, tips, and more information on how to get started, go to our website, stude studentcam,. Org. Treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin and Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell testified before Congress Last week about the Coronavirus Impact on the economy. The Senate Banking economy hearing is 2 1 2 thundershowers. This hearing will come to order. Todays hearing