Portrays Thomas Jefferson. We wanted to do something a little bit different this week. Given the National Conversation and given events all around us, we know that 2020 has been a challenging year. Monticello has been closed for months. We reopen this weekend. In recent weeks in the united states, millions of people all over the country are actively fighting for equity against different forms of racial injustice. Whether its racially motivated Police Violence or racially motivated monuments of memories. Its a conversation that we must engage in. Working here at monticello, we are a sight of memory. Monticello was a plantation where over 400 people were enslaved. Today, we decided that to have a conversation it, we would do something that we havent done, and im sure everyone knows this, youre not actually talking to Thomas Jefferson. Youre talking to, again, my friend bill who portrays Thomas Jefferson. Bill is going to join us today. When he does so, he will be out of character. We talked about this before we would go live, as to how we would best address the subject. We thought perhaps a good idea would be to talk about the challenge of interpreting slavery explicitly. Obviously, when bill and i talk about this, we recognize that we are both white men. We are talking about something that greatly impacts people of color and black americans. This friday is juneteenth, which marks a day of remembrance in this country for the end of slavery and its a day that all americans should celebrate. Knowing that this is an institution that legally ended. But that institution legally ending was not the end of its legacies. Slavery has always existed and slavery still exists, but the kind of slavery that existed at monticello, race based slavery that developed through the Transatlantic Slave Trade anne, and into the early united states, was inextricably intertwined with developing concept of race. The lasting legacies of which we still struggle with today and this systems we are still trying to dismantle. We believe, bill and i, that we must engage this conversation. Monticello is engaging this conversation and inviting others to do the same. I will still be accepting questions online and bill and i will try to answer those best we can. But today, we believe we will use this time to invite you all to join us in this. Understanding that we do have privilege as white men, and as such a duty to engage in the conversation about all of our shared past and help us understand how the history of the past determines who we are today. So bill, i think we should start with just a little explanation of what a first person interpreter is. Can you tell us what does a first person interpreter do and what do you do here at monticello . I thank you, brandon. Thanks to all of you to speak with and listen to because in my vocation it is an element of theater. You cannot extricate it from theater. What is so important to realize in our conversation, this is no mere intermission of a show. This is no on track. This is the reality of our times and our past times and this conversation continues. In my capacity as a historic interpreter, the theater is, as shakespeare said, the thing. The play is the thing often to spark and provoke the mind of the king. To help us look at ourselves. Shakespeare in particular succeeds in his plays to hold up a mirror in which we can see our human nature. It is nonetheless in historic interpretation. So my vocation in interpreting Thomas Jefferson, and that it has been and what ive done for nearly 40 years, is put on the investments but also the theater of mr. Jefferson to help us think. To help us better understand our past and particularly who we are as americans. To engage that conversation as he would want, certainly. Youve made reference that youve done this for a number of years. Our topic today about interpreting slavery, talking about slavery, is so relevant, but it has been an ongoing part of conversations at monticello and Historic Sites throughout the world. Can you tell us a little bit about how its changed from your perspective over the years . This interpretation of slavery. Yes. We are talking about it now and we had been talking about it for a few years, but not for the 40 years of which have been involved. I am a child of the sixties so i grew up in talking about this. We would go in and out of it, but since i began this and in Historic Sites and in Independence Hall in philadelphia, it was mentioned, but it was not engaged thoroughly. Im going back 40 years. When i went to Colonial Williamsburg in the spring of 1993, whoa mediums brig already embarked for several years upon the discretion of slavery. It was the African American interpretive group at Colonial Williamsburg. I welcome that opportunity to work with them to better explain the story and an act the story of our history. Monte cello had embarked at the same time upon speaking on slavery and continues as many other living history museums and national Historic Sites across our country do. We continue to speak about this more and more, engage this, but whats particularly important is to acknowledge it. To acknowledge it. And struggle with it. We need to struggle with this. First person interpreter is limited to the character and time period that they must portray. And conversations preparing for this, one of the things you and i discussed is a great example. Juneteenth is something that Thomas Jefferson would know nothing about during his life. Can you talk just a minute about the challenges of staying in character when talking about slavery in particular . The big challenge in interpreting Thomas Jefferson would be for a visitor to say, mr. Jefferson, what do you think about juneteenth . And for mr. Jefferson to reply, what is juneteenth . This allows the visitor, the guest, to explain it to him. So here is a wonderful opportunity to speak with our past and for the past to speak with the future. To come to an understanding that mr. Jefferson learns from the future, and with the hope that the future may learn well if you were referring to a time in which we finally ended slavery, what did it take them for that to come about . Would mr. Jefferson want to know what it took for that to come about . We know, if i can talk about in persona are his predictions, what could happen. He did make statements and his letters and that is my job to interpret those letters and the conversations we know he had in the interactions with those of his period. But it becomes even more a struggle for him as it does for us to ponder what it took, and then for mr. Jefferson to understand what it continues to take you. Youve kind of answer this a little bit with that question. It makes me think about, this, no given what the imitations the limitations are of staying in character. There are strategies of course that you all implement to get more complete messages across and i workers an interpreter but not as a first person interpreter so i think people would call me a tour guide, but not someone who dresses and i costume or is bound by the times so, could you share some strategies with us about how you bridge that gap. I think the strategies for helping us to better understand where we have been rest in the reiteration and continued conversation about our nations founding principles. I always prefer to introduce mr. Jefferson as writing what George Washington referred to as the promise in the declaration of american independence as something that does not include anything new or original. That it is the representation of the accumulation of mans eternal history in the struggle for liberty. That is considered mans eternal struggle for liberty and jeffersons style that has gone on and the fact that our promise, our declaration and expression of the American Mind submit these facts submitted hes back to a candid world. One of my strategies in that introduction is to remind people that we achieve, first nation in history of man founded upon principal, not upon monarchy, not upon nobility, and adventure, a aristocracy. Principles of inalienable rights, in nature, that every individual is entitled to. Is that the experience in his day . No. It is not, but he wrote it and it is our founding principle and it is our blueprint from which we can continue to struggle and have the conversation and pursue that equality. I remind people that it is a strategy that we brought 13 individual nations together to remind us that these former colonies were nations under themselves with differences of religious opinion in one different than another, with slavery, the overwhelming experience in many but not in others, that we brought this all together, you pluralism, again, to work this out, in a recognition that two heads are better than, one three heads are better than to. That a house divided cannot stand. That is an ancient principle of unity, and to help us understand that egalitarianism, providing an equal opportunity, is not a socialism, its an equal opportunity when. Its an opportunity for everyone to be able to achieve the pursuit of their happiness, to be happy, and to understand that freedom is not free. It requires an eternal vigilance in order to reflect upon these founding principles so, those are initial strategies that i try to engage at the very beginning, and then quite obviously, the conversation will continue. We are starting to get some questions in from the audience. This is a great one. Student groups, who are by far the most diverse ethnically, racially, groups that visit want to cello, and we see, in normal times, tens of thousands of students each year. Brigitte from online wants to know how you go about addressing sensitive topics like slavery when you are interpreting in front of a younger audience, particularly school aged children. Richard, i can tell, you its always been my experience to tell you that the young are very sensitive to begin with and have a great common sense and understanding what. I do the math of babes, and we are better to engage this conversation, if only to begin it with many them, they can continue to think about it and can continue to engage it. For a student, and ask mr. Jefferson about slavery, opens the door, it is very sincere, it is very innocent, it is obvious, and we approach it when we speak about it, we speak with and we listen to so i welcome student. I have been going out to schools for more than 40 years and i can tell you that it is the most satisfying work, particularly when reading them here at monte carlo as i was able to do in columbia williamsburg. This is how we touch our past. This is how we prepare our future so these our opportunities in the persona to speak with the future. This one is interesting. Jack wants to know, do you you find people assume your views are Thomas Jeffersons views . Is it hard for people to differentiate between you . And do you ever wish you could answer as bill rather than as Thomas Jefferson . Let me answer the second part. Of course i wish i could answer as bill. But in my persona, i am in my job, i am in my vocation, in my duty to teach history and interpret history, but certainly not justify mr. Jeffersons opinions. I expose his opinions. I speak about his opinions. But i also speak about his achievements and i speak about his vision. And most importantly, to reveal that he changed his mind as he grew older, to help us understand we all change our minds as we grow older. You read jefferson and hell let you know, i once thought this, i now think that. And it has helped me to keep in touch with him and particularly to help me better understand how, day to day, what we meet and what challenges us challenges preconceived ideas. This is a very challenging one, and a couple people had asked questions that relate to it, but you just opened the door to it by saying its not your job to justify jeffersons writings. John asked about notes on the state of virginia, and any scholar of jefferson knows notes of the state of virginia where he describes his opinions on race. What is the crucial element understanding slavery. You made me think of this earlier when you said it has changed the way we talk about slavery. Even in my short time in the field, i have only done this 10 years, but the way we talk about race at Historic Sites and in the Public Discourse has changed. 10 years ago, systemic racism, understanding white privilege, these were not broadly known conversations outside of academic discourse. Lets talk about notes on the state of virginia and another point someone brings up, cash, talking about how as public historians, we can help a 21stcentury audience who finds this is as morally abhorrent, and still understand the context for it. I think that is racist. I think it is clear in notes of the state of virginia note on the state of virginia. Can you talk a bit about how jefferson would write about things, without justifying what jefferson wrote . If someone, and they have many times, asked mr. Jefferson about his notes on the state of virginia, youll certainly see a remorse, to begin with. Youll certainly see an effort perhaps to dodge speaking any further about the question, but hes not going to dodge it. Hes going to approach it. At his does and as he does later in life, he apologizes for. He does it in a letter to a man who becomes a wellknown french abolitionist in february 1809, but even this remark is not meant to be an excuse. Its a revelation of the struggles that mr. Jefferson was going through, as we continue to go through when we read those notes. A further revelation is the fact that we know these now, we know jeffersons notes on virginia. He did not write them to be published extensively. He wrote the notes collectively in answer to a questionnaire that wast put out by someone to the colony of virginia and all the former colonies so that france could become better aware of the information, animal, vegetable, mineral, particularly to investing in the American Revolution. So jefferson had notes already and gathered these all together when he went to france, and he had them published in france privately and handed down to gentlemen of scientific curiosity. It got out of their hands, it got published, and there was. So theres a background. It is not a justification, it is a revelation of them. A further revelation within these notes jefferson makes bold statements not only about race, but also religion. He makes bold statements about habits and customs. He makes bold statements about particular proper names that he alone has ascribed to elements in nature, of flora and fauna. He answers much of the questions from de marbay, he answers them with questions, too. So here is the revelation of the scientist, who writes very early on, and i believe its in notes, be so bold to question everything, follow truth wherever it should lead us. And again, these are not justifications, theyre revelations of this information, and we struggle with it, as we should, and he did, and we try to reconcile it. Can it be reconciled . I have never been able to. We just got a comment that i think is very relevant to what you said and also the conversation at hand, and ill preface it by saying this is an emotionallycharged subject for a lot of people and for our facebook viewers, look at the comments. People have strong feelings about this at those comments run across the board, and are particularly addressed towards this history and the way that we talk about this history. Some people clearly say that we are trying to tear down the history of a great man by remembering slavery. Others say that we are trying to celebrate a singular narrative of a white man. And we welcome that discourse. But dylan asks this question, and i think it is very pertinent for you, when you are out there, you can see these emotions in people. How do you help mitigate that while you are in character, helping people, audience members, grapple with their own emotions . I only hesitate because im looking for the word, and i use it frequently in persona. This is the duty of an american citizen. Its our duty. It is we the people who hold the reins of our government, we the people who are responsible for the american conversation. This is exactly the Foundation Upon which the American Revolution was engaged, as the british were wont to play on the surrender field at yorktown, the event that turned the world upside down, the recognition by john locke and others that a monarch is not put on the throne by divine right. The motto of the royal family in great britain, you can still see it on the coat of arms at the Governors Palace in Colonial Williamsburg, god is my right, i am here by divine right. No. It is the people, the people from which a leader then emanates. If there were no people, the government would govern over no one. So it is the people that provide not only the purpose, but the power for government. This has always been our conversation. And history will tend to it in one way during one period, and in another way through another, and in my opinion, we continue to evolve in this to be able to work this out. That is my hope. Thats why i do this. Retirements not a word in my vocabulary, nor what nor was it a word in mr. Jeffersons vocabulary. He left 40 years of Public Service at 65 years old, to devote his time to found a university. We know that the coals brothers approached him on ending slavery and he replied to them as he entered his eighth decade, this is on the shoulders of the young generation. Again, this is no excuse, but it is a revelation on his thought on the subject. So again, this is our duty. This is a necessity, what we must do as people hold the reins of government. Thank heaven we have a system of government in our constitution. George washington get referred to it as the guarantee of our promise. A system of government, the first line of which is we the people. What a wonderful honor and what a wonderful obligation in my opinion. You spoke there about the history of history. The idea that history is a set of facts is not exactly right. Weve learned the more we learn about history and the more we learn that history says almost as much of the times that it is written as much of the times its trying to understand. Theres an aspect of jeffersons history that we should definitely address when it comes to talking about history. It is one of the reasons why jeffersons history is such a compelling lens. That is of course the fact that jefferson fathered children with a woman who he owned as property. Monticello has four years addressed what this relationship between Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson meant. So much so that we gravel over the use of the term relationship. We talk about what it means. We talk about how any kind of conversation, about consent between a master and slave good exist. How well never actually know anything about the feelings one way or another. But this conversation and the recognition of jefferson as hemmings childrens father happens 22 years ago. It was a dna study. This dna study did not prove that Thomas Jefferson was the father and no one ever claimed that it did. What the dna study did was that it provided a significant data point guard, a piece of corroborate evidence with which historians changed their perspective. I want to know what it was like for you because you were interpreting Thomas Jefferson at the time. Could you talk for minute about how that news spread and what peoples reactions were . I can tell you that i distinctly remember in september of 1997, there was a seminar held here at monticello. Actually, the historians and interpreters of jefferson sites, Independence Hall, the jefferson memorial, the National Park service was represented also, williamsburg was there, i was there as well. In our collective conversation, it was mentioned that the dna study, in the process for several years, was soon to be revealed in its final statement. So we want you to understand this, that this is going to come about in our studies and conversation. We all wondered when. And it came out on the front page of the Washington Post sunday edition i think on the first sunday of november 1997. I was walking to the Capital Building in williamsburg to have a program and a number of people were gathered around saying, mr. Jefferson, have you seen this . Have you seen this . What is it . I read it and i remember saying, i will follow science wherever it should lead us. I was wondering at the same time what would this lead to in that group of people there . What it led to was someone making a remark that was politically explosive, and their then began in engagement amongst all those people there and they forgot mr. Jefferson was part of it and i was able to turn around and go off to my program. That was the beginning. It has never ended and we know mr. Jefferson never said anything about it, but what i just mentioned, the revelation i will follow science wherever it should lead us, is what has brought us further into this conversation. Where will science go from here and beyond . Dna is one of the most remarkable elements of science that still continues and its further perfection. It is extraordinary. And what does it show . Something that jefferson and many others were discussing in his day. Are we all interrelated . Are we all, as the natives suggested, a family of man across the globe . There are many who are cautious to allow their dna to be taken. I find the most marvelous thing to help us understand better that we are all connected. I even question race. We are all one race. That is a great segue for this next question actually. Because it is true, and this is something that we often see with visitors to monticello, this conversation about race and what does race mean. A dna test cant tell you erase, right . Because race isnt scientifically based. Race is a social construct. What does that mean, right . It means that race was created by human beings to categorize other human beings. And of course, that happened during the Transatlantic Slave Trade. When we look at that and we have that conversation, we can easily say race does not exist scientifically, but politically, it very much does. And the realities of how people are treated because of the color of their skin are different. I have known about you and the work that you do for years, since i started in this. You are very well respected. I knew that you had done a lot of reading and studying, but when you came here and started working with us, i was blown away at the amount of knowledge that you have. So you have been a student of history for a long time. People ask this, so im going to ask you, to just address it. Slavery and racism today, are they connected . They certainly are. Of course they are. I remind people, in persona, that though jeffersons paternal line had been settled in virginia from the early 17th century, though his maternal line was settled in virginia in the mid 17th century, but that does not make mr. Jefferson anything more american than those who continue to arrive here to make for a better life for themselves and their families. But we were colonies of england, it was not only the englishman coming here. Many escaping the kingdoms of italy and germany. In fact, jefferson writes when hes sailing down the rind to mr. Madison, from everything i now see which ive already seen in my native land, i believe next to the english, the germans make up a better portion of our population. Well in virginia, jefferson shouldve thought for a moment. In williamsburg that ive known for 20 years, every other face is African American. That the great population of virginia is nearly 50 African American at the time that hes going to write the declaration of american independence. So i remind people, as we talk about when their ancestors may have arrived, and what about the African American . Did not the first ship bear an African American sailing into the Chesapeake Bay in 16 19 . And that was not of their own free will and volition, they were slaves. And they had been here many many generations already. But the point of the matter is that in the founding of our nation, we began to realize before the American Revolution began, that we were becoming less and less british and more and more american. And then the problem begins. Because who are representing americans . The white male freeholder. 21 years of age or older. Thats jefferson. Thats his society. That is what is governing our new nation, and continues to govern our new nation even when we have 22 states before jefferson passes away. Generally, throughout our country, it is the white male freeholder. Freeholder meeting someone who owns outright his property that has the vote, that has to say. You look at our history and you see that the admitting of states, and this is a result of the northwest ordinance, finds one from the north, but the next one is going to come from the south. Then the one after that from the north and the next one from the south. This continues, of course, until weve got a question we have to grapple with, admitting with the north of massachusetts, known as the main, and missouri which falls distinctly in the center of the west. So how do we balance this . What are we going to do . Who is going to provide the answer . The white male freeholder, compromising, kicking the can. And thats when, as we began this conversation, jefferson wrote to one of the first two senators in maine, i think its jonathan holmes, this could be a fireball in the night. It could call the name of our union. I fear to not see that speck on our horizon. We know that part. Very few of us know the second part. I think my creator i will not have to later see it because he knows all too well i will spend the rest of my days weeping over the neglect of the grandsons who have forgotten entirely the principles in our declaration. That is one generation between the Founding Fathers and those who contend at gettysburg. One generation. Its an ancient adage jefferson well. Man is always one generation removed from barbarism. If you forget, you fall backwards. What if we had had a universal system of education before jefferson passed away . Where the child of massachusetts as well as virginia, the child in the missouri territory, let alone the child in georgia and connecticut, could all be learning these founding principles at the same time. Grappling and understanding, but wait a minute, its still only the white male freeholder. Women certainly should not be allowed to vote. Yes, systemic racism is still with us despite everyone having that opportunity to vote. Or do and does everyone have that opportunity, and freely able to attend to it . This ongoing conversation and the National Conversation as well, it reminds me of something James Baldwin wrote 60 years ago. This country is celebrating the end of the civil war 100 years too soon. Celebrating 100 years after the war, 100 years too soon. And you are talking about this long ongoing struggle and its so broad and it impacts many people in different ways. Women and American Indian people, other people of color, all of these conversations, poor people, people who dont own their own land, they intersect in different ways. And it is an ongoing conversation i hope well continue to have. We have one last question today. What is your hope for Historic Sites and interpreters like yourself . What role can you play in this conversation . Reminding us of who we are as americans, reminding us of that. You made the statement, this is an emotional conversation, and it ought to be an emotional conversation. Because being an american is the most wonderful experience, if you have all of those rights under natures god to pursue your happiness. Where else in the history of the world . That is why we continue to be peopled by so many people that come here. Please come to a naturalization ceremony, monticello offers that, Poplar Forest offers that, Independence Hall offers that. Listen to people who raise our right hand and taken oath of allegiance to our nation while they forego any further allegiance to their old nation, that they may someday have to take up arms against the nation of their birth, and they realize that what they are learning about our history and particularly of slavery, is already our charge, and has been since we started this nation. And that i hope and i know has been the pursuit and the effort of Historic Sites, our national Historic Sites, to remind us of this great honor as an american, to remind us of our duty to continue to struggle with it and make for a more perfect union. Thank you, bill. And thank you all for joining us today and i would like to close just by saying that this conversation is pertinent to us and want to cello, and its partner to the world and one. And not a cello itself tries to foster these dialogues. We invite you to join us in these conversations. We have opened again to the public and we hope that in coming months we will see some better changes, some normalcy returned to our country as we advance hopefully through scientific defense against this disease. We also hope to foster this kind of Civic Engagement that is so essential to self governance, and a fight for equity. And we believe that monte cello is a place that can allow that because of exactly what it is, the home of a man who settlement a created equal and yet own human beings. It is a lens through which we can understand how this country can exist based on the highest ideals of freedom and equality, while being created on some of the most devastating realities of American Indian removal and the enslavement of people of african descent. And this continuing fight for equity, equality and justice, it is most american. And the active participation in our governance through civil discourse and protest is also a duty