Monuments. This is in washington d. C. And they hosted the event and provided the video. I am pleased to introduce todays discussion, during the last several years, how we remember and memorialize the civil war has been a topic in the United States and we have seen a renewed interest in these conversations in the recent weeks. At this site of Political Violence and national memory, we see our work as looking not only to the actions of the past but also how the passed informs to these circumstances throughout the country and the world, people raise questions about the purposes of the leaders who supported or profited from slavery, whether in richmond, boston, or birmingham, monuments and statues have become a flashpoint for the black lives matter movement. Since 2015, ford has held an annual Summer Institute set in stone, memory, monument, and myths that has explored questions of remembrance and memorialization. Each year, we find the spring has brought new and urgent crises that require attention and consideration. This year, more that more than any recent memory, demands that and more. Today, we explore some of these questions with you. I am pleased to welcome dr. Hilary green and kevin levin to todays cabinet conversation. Both dr. Green and mr. Levin have written extensively on how a wide range of americans commemorate the civil war. They are currently curating a book showing different perspectives on civil war memorials. As you have here heard they have been active in recent debates. Doctor green is associate professor of history and the department of gender and serves as a coprogram director of the Africanamerican Studies Program at the university of alabama. Ester levanon is an educator and historian with a focus on civil war era, civil war memory and history education. He serves as a resident scholar for Summer Teacher Institute set in stone. It gives me great pleasure to turn the program over to dr. Green and mr. Levin. Thank you. Thank you. How are you doing . Im doing well thank you. We have a pretty hot topic to talk about in short period of time. The topic of civil war memory and Confederate Monuments and memorials, which is in the news over the past few weeks. I thought we would start with the big picture. The two of us, we have spent a lot of time over the years thinking about this subject and writing about it. We have been thinking 24 7 about it. We have probably been dreaming about it. We are aware of that or we are not. I assume for most people, they are coming out this fresh. Theyre watching the news, they are reading on social media and they are probably grappling with what it is that is going on. How do we begin to make sense of it . I thought we would start with the big picture and then try to focus in on some topics. I am wondering, for that individual, the person who is coming out this topic fresh, and is trying to make sense of it, where do we start in terms of trying to come to terms with this civil war landscape, monument landscape, specifically Confederate Monument landscape. Where do we start . I always go back to the monument craze. In which these monuments come up. I see ourselves at the monument removal craze at the moment. It went from the cemeteries and nobody complained about that because africanamericans, northerners, southerners no one was like when they go into public spaces and the timing of it with the rise of white supremacy, jim crow segregation, lynching and especially when i look at the map of when these monuments come up, you get a direct overlay. I start with those monuments, the impetus of those monuments, who were the women behind it . I think the confederacy has been disappearing from these conversations and lets talk about what they did. Not just the monuments but the textbooks, highways, all of that. And then look at the dedication speeches. Start there and talk about the beginning. You have laid out a couple of things already. To reveal a little bit, when we have these different periods of memorialization, immediately after the war, white women in the south are placing them mainly in cemeteries. The early memorializations, for the most part, cemeteries to commemorate the dead. They are not intended as public statements, although they are in a way. By the time to put of reconstruction, that is when we see the shift to the public spaces. Public parks, courthouse squares, intersections, etc. That seems to be the monuments where we are having trouble with today. The 1920s, and there is a spike around the civil rights movement. The map of resistance. A massive resistance. And then one of the things you also get, africanamericans admit that all of this struggle, always rejected those monuments. Even when they did not have a political say anymore, you see in North Carolina, county officials complaining, if another person vandalizes this thing, we will lynch them. They are using that language. Creative ways of showing they racist and then in their own compute eighties saying that this isnt us. Do not walking terror, do not think you dont exist. But we have our own memory. Right now it is not safe enough for us to talk about openly because of the conditions where the violence comes up. The violence of lynching, that complicity that is bought with those monuments, that forced silences are also there because a lot of people did not want to speak up. I was like, there is not a climate where people could speak up. Absolutely, right from the beginning, one of the things that people need to understand is that African Americans, for example, it is not as if these monuments recently becoming controversial. But you want from people to understand is that from day one they were controversial. African americans understood what the war was about. They had their own way of commemorating, whether it was emancipation ceremonies, there are a few monuments you can find throughout the south, not many at all for the obvious reasons. These monuments, this is the part that People Struggle with, these monuments reflect the political hierarchy of the jim crow era. It is white southerners that have the ability because they are controlling local government, to decide how the past is remembered in public spaces. In doing so, it constitutes an argument for legalized site gradation. If you can erase the past of other people from the public landscape, then you can justify placing them as second class citizens. And you can also, the placement of them at the court houses. Then you have the legal system, the criminal Justice System and this secondclass citizenship. Mass policing of space whether it is through courts it is a different type of policing which is why i think it is interesting now that the ones that court houses have been a part of that removal. When you look at the North Carolina once and even in alabama and Different Things, they are at court houses. And they said, we are moving them because even the protesters they see that long term legacy of when they replaced them and the legacy of various types of policing. Those monuments reinforced who is considered a full citizen in his who is not. I am wondering, is there an example of a statue or a monument that stands out that really drives home the complexity of all this the intersection of the politics of race, white supremacy, the work of the abc, is there for you a monument that speaks to that . There are two. One is silent sam at the university of North Carolina. I am a tar heel. As a student, and i was a graduate student, i change the way i walked on that campus. To see that monument. I am like, no, i have a right to be here. I am getting my phd. I refused to walk by it. I hold when i i hold when i graduated and i was rediscovered the speech, i was starting to teach in North Carolina and i started teaching from day one. I have beens teaching that speech been speak teaching that speech since 2010. The black woman who got her phd from chapel hill. For me, that visceral reaction as a student and the ability to teach and educate and get my students to understand what chapel hill is. Some of my students had no idea that black students would go out of their way to not have to see. University of alabama, it was just recently removed. When i talk about the daughters of the confederacy my whole class goes out to the academic quad and we talk about it. Where we are situated, africanamericans hand cut as slave labor. The klan claimed that as a rallying point. You have this current day people who tailgate there have no idea. For me to be able to use that monument as a teaching tool, it went from student to faculty to teaching. I am always teaching to have those conversations. And they lack the language and the tools to have these conversations. You are absolutely right. What you are doing on the university of alabama is a reminder that the reach of the udc extended way beyond courthouse squares and parks. Extended to the universities themselves. We focus on their monument work, they are much more concerned about controlling textbooks, controlling the Younger Generation that never lived through the war and giving them pride. I want to push back on you with something you might hear from maybe someone watching. Which is, hold on, you have this teaching tool on your campus that you were using to teach your students, having them the language and doing all the things you just mentioned, and now it is gone. I am wondering why cant someone push back and say, those monuments on monument avenue in richmond, you cannot think of a better teaching tool. What do we need to understand in terms of the distinction between history and memory . Many people are somewhat confused by it. Why do we still need to remove monument . It represents, the monument represent Power Dynamics and oppression . Is it all memory . Those monuments erased a whole bunch of peoples memories, including the africanamerican memory. What is interesting, women, white and black the black women are doing the same thing. One of the things we still have the records. Being on the campus, that africanamerican memory, the pain and trauma and intensity still exists. That removal helps to get healing. On my campus, they could be contextualized and have that space but not in public one that is an assault. That was the original plan for the university to place it in some kind of museum. I remember writing in support of it on social media and i got a lot of pushback. I finally understood what people were getting at. It does give you a sense of how emotional this is. There is no onesizefitsall model. Each individual community has to do that. We did not have violence. It was a petition. If you look at the petition writers, one of them i had in class. The literature, all of these great new books that have complicated this narrative. The events where these crazes started. Charleston, charlottesville, flashpoint of violence. The murder of nine individuals. It is what kicked off this craze. This recent phase of protest, it is a recent manifestation of a longer history. This goes back to 2015. Start with that. I think now that can give you the pulse of the current situation. And you can go to onto dixie daughters and you can go and get the longer history. And then your broke, and you can get the longer history but you can get a crash course in non academic language. And i think it changes the profession as well that we are more we see ourselves in the larger community, and how to help those discussions. It certainly speaks to and this is a question that i struggled with, and what exactly is our role as historians and all of this you know you write these books and articles, and we give talks and then we end up watching all of this whats going on and its happening so fast it is dizzying. Every morning i wake up and i add to this list of monument removals im trying to keep up with and it is impossible. And i guess its you know i wonder what are we doing we are, talking here and we are throwing up something for people to read and educate themselves. Think more broadly, but is that the extent of it . What is our place and our discussion, which seems more about the president acting through these monuments to the past right. And certainly its about a legacy of systemic racism, deepseated inequities that go back but it seems that it doesnt always seem to be exactly focused on monuments per se, but we are acting through them. Yes and i think its just a conversation, because one of the things that this manifestation has talked about in my own worker on campuses are on the campus, its the community and understanding, is that we have not had the soul searching of that longtime legacy and we are afraid to talk about race. We are afraid and even want to listen to the other side. So one of the things ive been through in a lot of the communities is the start of conversations. And like saying this is a space for us to talk, and a space for people to share. And i have been enough conversations from 2010, in North Carolina, and a group of African Americans were trying to remove a monument. And the black Community Gets up there and they are willing to compromise, but can you bring in this can bring in that and theyre told to get over it. And then the shouting and yelling begins. And now people are like wait, i see your point, lets listen. And that pain especially for African Americans who witnessed their monuments, to the civil war. And buildings and churches. And schools. And they were bulldozed for urban renewal. And that pain is real, and when you have an older person of color whos talking about that and say you dont care. Theyll say you never defended us when we are trying to save our community. And having that for a half hour, and people are like wait we really did it. It changes how we can move conversations. Yes yes go ahead. And i was gonna say, for me and you have a good one here, you wrote about the emancipation statue in boston. The yes it. It so what are you thoughts about the, one in d. C. And even the boston one . Yes it is complicated because, there are so many ways you can approach that emancipation statue in d. C. And i love you know i company teachers, over the last few years and its always a great moment because we are reading fredericton glasses address so obviously he gave his Education Address in 1876. As you know and i encourage you to fund the line and watching its an incredible address, because its so complicated and douglas is never willing to let lincoln off the hook as a great emancipator. The and he basically says he was the white mans president right. So its a great opportunity to get up to the complexity of lincolns legacy, at least in the eyes of douglas and few years after the war, but obviously the memorial itself is complex because it was paid by the friedman right. And the enslaved man himself is based on a real person, Archer Alexander the but obviously its a. Position that the submissive pose and ivan douglas he comments on it. And he commented at that time. And lincoln helped bring over the great emancipator. And the sculptor was a local man here in boston. And a copy was brought here in 1879 that wasnt paid for by friedman. And it sat in parts where since then most people never see it. But of course now where there is Young African american man, who posted a video on his Facebook Page and he was a very well thought out the argument calling for its removal. And so one of the things i try to point out there and i think this gets at the one way to understand monuments is not just a loner in isolation, but we should see them in relationship to other monuments and memorials around them. And the problem with boston is that other than the shot memorial. Which is the 54th massachusetts, men in arms and uniforms. An important a memorial, the only other statue to abolitionists in boston are the white man. Right . So boston was a center of black abolitionist activity. And it speaks to the power of these monuments or memorials not just a race that history, but you distorted. Because it leaves you with the understanding what took place and between the freedom trail and the revolution was and that of course it is problematic because they. The other thing about the d. C. Monument and i was find its juxtaposition, with one of the others and every time i go there now is like ok this is not how i wouldve imagined this monument. Yes yes, and i think they moved the Lincoln Statue the and it is problematic. So what do you do with that of course that raises another question will and this is always been up to local communities. And they put up a new one to fix this so its what you do what it is. And i think we have a question about monuments on battlefields. So so i will give a disclosure, my mothers family is from Franklin County pennsylvania, so they are free people of color, and in my next book i open with gettysburg. So i spent a lot of time, in gettysburg. And its battlefield. I expected to see monuments but so one of the things the im not sure given if you have this as well but, our battlefield monuments okay. And i come across this question a lot. So for me its usually contextualize at the space of this battlefield what. And maybe i see it as more problematic and i think the one thing we do acknowledge is we are talking about federal land versus local property. And then of course is a whole other ball game because trying to get the federal government to do anything, and the monuments are saying. So i think we can agree on that on the foreseeable future, but in most places especially those run by the National Park service, they do a phenomenal job of interpreting. And im trying to place them in the context of the battlefield. And when youre standing in the North Carolina monument, in the gettysburg battlefield, and that monument is a beautiful monument of north carolinians, facing forward on july 3rd 1863. And theres a plaque lost cause, it praises these men and what are they looking at directly, they are marching for the bryant farm. The a family that had to flee, as the army as leeds army is coming into pennsylvania in the summer of 63. And kidnapping free blacks. So if you know the story, and you know this history you can use these monuments as windows into this past. But for the average family i wondered what they are walking away from you know seeing robert e. Lee hovering over, and looking over Cemetery Ridge and we enforce the lost cause. Of a gallon to tack. You know and the only reason i go to gettysburg and go there its, and alabama monument, and it took years i took at the battlefield of it but the thing about North Carolina as somebody who knows about and has grown up here about the stolen ones that African Americans taken, there is a conversation but i think happens locally that doesnt always happen nationally and coming here to talk about but the federal park service and National Parks of gettysburg had done such a great job, these spaces im fine with but in some of the states they could do better contextualize a shun especially theres one in the wilmington area were on their markers like that staff. That can come down. But these memorials. Federal services and Park Services so for me if it is not here and get a sense of space and we cant have it somewhere else. These are one of the better examples and these models. The only thing i would throw on this and the only thing i would point is does it help us in any way understand why so few African Americans visit these battlefields . Doesnt it get back to the way that these memorial landscapes sheep who feels welcome . Im just throwing that out there. It gets to a question someone asked about who are the stolen ones. The stone ones are the free African Americans who are kidnapped and then enslaved. Frankly my part of it my great grandparents, great aunts, church people, including the White Community as well are the ones that are taken and never come back. They just never disappear at it is a small Farming Community so the losses are real so they always talk about when they talk about civilian trauma they talk about the occupations, leave, in nazi favorable terms and they say the stolen. Once thats all they are. Most people dont know much about the suspect of the campaign or the fact this is what shocked me researching for black Confederate Army as it march for north included 10,000 inslee people so the army of virginia is a army of slaves bringing the institution of slavery into july 1863 thats functioning as a sleeve catching army. Talk about a slavery arm hunt its part of the first chapter of my book written by jacob. Its called ten days after gettysburg. After they started hearing the sounds of war they start to hide in the cabins and other places of the underground railway and for him he didnt feel safe to commit until ten days out so he writes this long song and then writes eight some said thats the piece ten days under the gettysburg so he talks about lee coming in. Stealing people. They are call the gross, dealers horse they are not polite. This is a traumatic event and for most people outside those border counties pennsylvania, theres a good job outside of others and talks about what happens afterwards they survived and that has been lost but in those areas i just know that is one of the things that brides farm or what gettysburg has done recently is to more bring more African Americans to because of lincolns emancipation proclamation and gettysburg but they will not go to the because of some kind of tied within the African American memory. We only have a few minutes left and just wondering just to close this out. What do you think i mean as a history to hit predict anything but is what we are seeing now going to continue . I mean at the current pace what do you see happening . Monument avenue is going to be gone by the end of the apart from the are showed us statute charlottesville perhaps. I mean this is going to continue for the foreseeable future. I think its good to continue and i think its going to continue with a couple more heels and then its gonna slow back down. And so for me because five years for historians is short and i could barely keep up. Acted to the database at like 120 removed. Most of it from charleston on up and have a whole list of about 25 of the columbus is and the global ones. Then i have a whole bunch that with people who promised some like ok you promised. What does this mean . Thats going to be another 40. Who else is going to have this so i think the next three years were to see a lot more continuum. And then it is going to slow down but for me my concern is especially on my campus and other campuses have asleep past the university of album apologized for slavery. We give him worker in 2006 to it. What happened is culture, we give them culture developed. Im afraid its going to be removed memorial culture and thats all we need to do and for me removing and adding new is easy. Its easy to add something. Its easy to remove something. People use it as a starting point to deal with the larger issues i dont think its going to do much along. Thats been my concern but i see a lot of the ones at cortez is coming down and hopefully it just keep up and i know im glad to have to teach this. And right about this because this is a moment and being a witness to this history. And being a witness to my own campuses history and to older. I can never have expected. This absolutely i dont have anything to add to that you summed it up beautifully i think we could continue this for the next hour or so but i think we can headed back over to paul right now. I really enjoyed this. Thanks a lot. There i am. I was let me just say first of all im glad you brought me back because i have a very important question that is tied into what you were talking. But let me just say what a amazing conversation. So i have a question for each of you. Which of the monuments that are still remaining that have still not been taken down for each of you are the most offensive and that you would really like to see removed . Back to green. I think its coming down its the kelvin monuments in areas of charleston, south carolina. My fathers family is from james ireland low family i know some of the victims of charleston. So for me after all of charleston every time i go by it i just want to dion and i think if it comes down once it comes out i will do a dance for joy as i did for silencing. So thats the one that needs to come down for me. So theres a movement out right now to remove that and its coming. What you think of the next months . Its the nay the mayor announced it yesterday but if it comes down i will be a happy person. Thats great. Kevin what about you . I hesitate to say this because you know we use it in the Summer Program every year. We bring teachers into Arlington National cemetary to the federal memorial in the middle of Arlington National cemetary was committing to in 1914 the center of confederate graves and its a prima problematic memorial for a number of reasons its a not apologetic pro Confederate Monument during a time supposedly of national reconciliation. But it reinforces in the most direct way. The most explicit way possible the myth of the loyal slave in two ways. It includes the image of the loyal figure that was in the news yesterday the company puts out and jemima has basically discontinued calling it that even getting rid of the image itself that is a classic example of a manager of the loyal sleeve image but this is of a oil manny taking a child of a confederate officer whos about to go off to war and then in another group on the memorial is sort of a group of soldiers. Confederate soldiers. And you see what is a uniformed black man marching off and for many people today they use this or they say this as evidence of black confederate soldiers but its really a buddy servant or what i call a sleeve who wouldve marched off to war with his master and its problematic because arlington is the final resting place for black Union Soldiers that gave their lives for this country. They are buried off in section 27 in the far corner where few people will ever visit. The confederate section is a very prominent one and it not only pushes that history of Union Soldiers out of the picture. But it reinforces a dangerous view or interpretation of African Americans at the time of course when talking about legalized segregation. So that one is right at the top of my list in terms of monuments that deserve at least a very serious discussion. Any movement . No. Absolutely not and i suspect there wont be. Okay well i hesitate im trying to see if ive got i think ive got two more minutes im going to take a liberty here and i am going to flip that question a little bit and im going to start again with of all the monuments that have been removed recently which one did you do a dance for when that came back . Silence some. Again for me as a student the visceral reaction i have to deal with for five years and still deal with on that campus and the discussions on over the politics of its removal and Different Things and my relationship with the university has shifted but also it has pushed me more into entering these debates on work because i had a voice to say. So when i got to do it i did a little jump for joy over it like effect for silent sam but silence him is that when i did. This is easy very easy. Nathan in memphis, tennessee, how is the can allow i know by the statues put their initially but now of course acknowledging forced role as a slave trader before the war of general responsible for one of the massacres before the were and after the war involved of the ku klux klan i didnt do a dance you know but i had a big smile on my face. And of course the next move when it comes to that statue is and his wife are both period at the base of the statutes they need to be removed as well so the work is not done and then of course like all of these you know monuments that are coming down, have kim down, or will come down as the exciting question of what these communities will do to turn these public spaces into spaces that reflect the values of the community as a whole, and are welcoming to all, to everyone in those communities. Along those lines a question came in from our viewers is are there monuments to black Freedom Fighters or lacks that are well done and that you think need more recognition or people should see on, this is an opportunity to put a promotion up for those monuments that people should go see. Doctor green. I have. To one is a monument that is in North Carolina. Its more than other ones its created by African American women and it comes up to the monument comes up and its at the edge of the black community. Its a rare monument of this time and it doesnt get a lot of press and discussion outside of the state. And the other one is up in hampton park south carolina. As well as the d. C. Monument over by the museum of civil war africans i think we need more of them and one of the questions you ask what about me . I think if we put lee down and put John Mitchell on top of a critic thats more representative id be happy with that as well but its up to communities to determine who the Freedom Fighters in the communities deserve honoring. Who have the values. Who can replace those who dont have values and yes. I was going to say the one in d. C. As well because its you know, its a relatively new monument it goes back to the early i want to safely nineties. 98 and its in the shaw district in d. C. Close to the universitys of the