Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Oversight Subcommittee Hearing On The U.S. Postal Service 20240712

Mail, Committee Members asked witnesses about mr. Dejoys ownership of a company that contracted its services to the usps. The chair would ask without objection that ms. Debbie wassermanschultz i got it right here. Ms. Cooper and representative mary gay scanlon beor waived on the committee. Without objection, it is so ordered. I want to welcome everyone to s our hearings on recent developments regarding the Postal Service and i now recognize myself for an Opening Statement and i will recognize the Ranking Member for his Opening Statement. I have agreed is the chairwoman on . Does the chairwoman wish to have an Opening Statement . Ill recognize here with your permission after myself. O our colleague ms. Lawrence is going to issue have an Opening Statement. I will recognize if somebodyv on your side wants to have additional okay. That would be fine. The cr you justow let me know. Okay. Theit s Postal Service is the crowned jewel of our federal government. It emplo serves every household business every day. It employs 630,000 brave individuals who live in every single congressional district. According to pew research, 91 of americans have a favorable view of the Postal Service. Oth leaps and bounds above that of any other federal entity. During the coronavirus pandemic, the Postal Services value to this nation is greater than ever. The Postal Service is a formal s component our response framework serving as a linchpin as our nations response to the pandemic. A june 2020 harris poll found that the Postal Service ranged as the single most essential company to americans during the pandemic. Because its a constant in your lives. It outranks companies that manufacture ppe. The Postal Service will also play a critical, unprecedented in the sense of expanded role in our democracy. Protecting ballo the health of who cast their ballots by mail. We know postal workers can handle the volume of that ion election mail. Is the question is whether those at the helm are taking steps to t hinder that capacitybe and slowt down in ways that hurt the prospects of a Fair Election bue benefit one candidates reelection campaign. Its essential that the Postal Service leadership demonstrate nonpartisanship and not cronyism or t favoritism. Serving everyone in our country is the responsibility to bestow upon only the most qualified and honorable of leaders. Its a job for those who are ready and willing to listen to the millions of stakeholders, mail recipients and so many others to connect the United States as Benjamin Franklin foresaw and serve as the thread that unites our societys many fabrics. Unfortunately, thats not what is happening. Instead, we have a board of governors who inserted a political ally of the president into the search process at the 11th hour. Circumventing proper venting and background checks. We have a crony at the helm of our nations Postal Service, a man with conflicts of interest. We have a postmaster general who would benefit financially if the post office sprints towards privatization. He who would benefit if mailin ballots are delayed or undelivered. That would be unacceptable under any circumstance. Its catastrophic, however, during a Global Pandemic on the precipice of one of the most consequential National Elections in our lifetimes. This hearing seeks to give the public an update on what we know about the background and qualifications of the postmaster general selected by the board of governors. In fact, one might say that this is the homework that board of governors should have done but failed to do. Using publicly available resources, well piece together the troubling past of mr. Dejoy. Well examine his actions related to Campaign Elections while he was at the helm of new breed logistics. Well explore his companies that benefit from contracts with the Postal Service, companies that would also benefit if usps pursued the president s plan for privatization. We will discuss why these actions and those Connections Matter and why they should have rendered him, in my view, ineligible for consideration for this position. Mr. Dejoys first day of work was june 15th. Today marks the start of his 13th week of federal service and yet his record is characterized by tumult, controversy, plummeting service, betrayal of customers in need of medicines and supplies but the trucks are on time with the mail often left behind. So theres that. We learned at our last hearing that mr. Dejoy has known for weeks that his socalled operational changes that just so happened to coincide with the election starting slowed down the mail by 10 . Thats according to their own inside sources as the chairwoman of this committee made public at our last hearing. For two weeks, he withheld from congress and the public the data and analysis that demonstrated how his leadership undermined the actual mission of the Postal Service to deliver the mail. Days later, details of mr. Dejoys personal lack of ethics have come to light. He reportedly forged his own brothers signature to take greater control over his familys company. Mr. Dejoy reportedly and illegally used the Family Company as a personal Political Action committee coercing his staff, reportedly, to donate to preferred republican candidates and then reimbursing those employees with bonuses at salary. If true, dejoys actions should have been of great concern to the board of governors and could be prosecuted for criminal activity. But were not done. Over the weekend, the Postal Service sent every home in america to request a mailin ballot, sending misinformation in nine states that send out such ballots. This debacle could have been avoided if mr. Dejoy had accepted proofreading of that message before he sent it out. And we see reports emerging that when mr. Dejoy was the ceo of his company, they may have received as much as 53 million in overpayments for services rendered. The dossier released today by ms. Lisa graves, one of our witnesses, shows that mr. Dejoy continues to hold investments, assets or other interest in entities that benefit when the Postal Service contracts out its operations. Moreover, mr. Dejoy improperly mixes his friendships with his nonpartisan position as png. What should scare every american is that mr. Dejoy in his official capacity continues to conceal his secret coordination with Trump Campaign associates about which hes already provided misleading information and testimony for the congress. The chairwoman and i have repeatedly asked t repeatedly asked the postmaster general clarify what mr. Dejoys investments are and restore trust in the Postal Service. Theyve not given the committee the documents we have requested and that we require. On september 2nd, maloney issued a subpoena compelling mr. Jdejo to provide a list of documents with Trump Campaign affiliates and individuals. Today is the deadline for the board of governors to provide the committee documents and information to shed light on the way mr. Dejoy was selected for this position. While the board of governors might be, quote, tickled pink, unquote, with mr. Dejoys performance, the American People are not. Perhaps they need to be reminded that their job is to serve the country not any particular president. I look forward to hearing from our expert Witnesses Today in continuing this critical discussion and the committees ongoing investigation. And with that, i recognize my friend, the distinguished Ranking Member for his opening remarks. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just the mere notion that this hearing is a postal update is Utter Nonsense by the chairmans own admission just moments ago the issues that will be discussed in the hearing today shows this hearing for what it is, an absolute farce. Not a single one of the witnesses who are here are supposed to be having a postal update. Not a single one of the witnesses work for the usps currently. The fact is in relation to the Postal Service update, because of better than expected revenue during this pandemic, because of packages, the Postal Service has reported that it has enough money to be totally solvent through at least august of next year. 11 months from now. 11 months, there is no immediate need for a 25 billion bailout. However, as gao reported in may and as we have all known now for decades, the us pss model is not sustainable because of such things as declining mail volumes, increased compensation costs and rising unfunded liabilities. 25 billion bail out money cannot fix these type of problems. All it does is push the problems down the road a little bit further for us to have to deal with it later. We have a 11 months as of right now, 11 months to come together to work in a partisan fashion to bring real reforms to the Postal Service just like mr. Chairman you did with my predecessor mark meadows. But instead of having a serious discussion about proposals for a postal reform bill, we are using this valuable time to delve into conspiracy theories about the koch family and opine into mr. Dejoys financial interests. Assembling a group of people like we are doing here today regardless of their experience to speculate with no more facts or information than what is presented in the Washington Post is absolutely a waste of time. This is, in my opinion, close to a Kangaroo Court as anything ive seen. Given the reckless apathy towards facts and truth, its clear that this socalled hearing is nothing more than a further attempt at political assassination. What we do know at this point is that the usps Ethics Office cleared mr. Dejoy to retain certain assets and to the best of anyones knowledge here, he has complied with the conditions around that ruling. For his part, postmaster general has confirmed in our full Committee Hearing that the oig is conducting an investigation and he said that he welcomed the results of that report. Furthermore, the president himself has said that hes open to a Campaign Finance investigation of the postmaster general and said if he did something wrong, if it could be proven, if theres evidence of wrongdoing, he should lose his job. And despite all of the cooperation between those two, the democrats try to paint them as partners. It sounds like at least the two of them, the postmaster and the Current Administration are willing to at least collect the facts and evidence before rushing to judgment. Something certainly that this committee so far has not done. Just for example, when the entire house was forced to vote on a postal bailout bill before we even had a hearing, before we even had the opportunity to question postmaster general and analyze data on what was causing the reported slowdowns or when the democrats claim that the removal of collection boxes and sending letters to state about their election deadlines was an assault on the postal it was without admitting the same actions that postmaster generals in the past have done. Same actions that they have taken time and again. Today were having a hearing two days before the Postal Service is due to start producing documents from the democrat subpoena which asked for documents regarding the postmaster generals investments, recusals and communications with the Ethics Office. But let me just add this, in the documents that have already been received from the Postal Service, there is evidence of the democrats disingenuous narrative about the usps. The documents show in black and white evidence countering two of the democrats favorite topics on this issue, the postal boxes and mailsorting machines. Interestingly, more of these were removed just prior to the 2016 election than have been removed this year. And yet strangely, i dont recall any talk about it then. As a result the hearing today will not be based on fact. It will be based on conjecture and supposition in the hopes of one day that we will resume genuine postal reform. Ive invited mr. Mike plunkett, this is a National Association of businesses and organizations that rely on the use of mail for communications and commerce. I look forward to hearing from him as well as our other witnesses who are here today and hopefully we will be able to move forward with genuine efforts for postal reform rather than these type of hearings that are nothing more than a Kangaroo Court to score political points. With that, mr. Chairman, i yield back. I thank the gentleman. I would note for the record what was characterized as characteristic assassination was an indepth investigation done by the Washington Post and Media Outlets confirm the findings of the investigation that members of new breed staff when mr. Dejoy was the krae wce pressured to make donations. I appreciate the chairmans remarks with that, but the fact is, this hearing is supposed to be about postal updates, not about potential investigations or Kangaroo Courttype of investigations we appreciate the gentlemans point. But leadership of the Postal Service is directly related to issues about performance at the Postal Service. Thats what leadership is about. Before i call on ms. Lawrence and mr. Keller for Opening Statements, i recognize the chairwoman of the full committee for my comments she may wish to make. Good morning. I would like to thank you for holding this important hearing and being such a Strong Partner in our investigation to hold the Postal Service and its leadership accountable to the American People. I would like to welcome our witnesses. We look forward to learning from you and working with you to ensure that the Public Interest is protected and i thank you for being here. Ever since the board of governors announced the selection of mr. Dejoy as postmaster general, questions have been raised about the process for selecting him and possible conflicts of interest, given his many financial interests and Postal Service contractors. During our full Committee Hearing on august 24th, 2020, multiple Committee Members questioned mr. Dejoy and Board Chairman dunkin about his Selection Process and whether it was influenced by the fact that both mr. Dejoy and mr. Dunkin are longtime mega donors for the Republican Party. When directly asked by congressman cooper whether mr. Dejoy had ever paid back any of his executives for contributing to republican campaigns by providing bonuses or rewarding them, mr. Dejoy responded in no uncertain terms, thats an outrageous claim, sir. And i resent it, end quote. Yet less than two weeks later, a headline appeared in the Washington Post which stated, and i quote, louis dejoys rise as gop fund raiser was powered by contributions from Company Workers who were later reimbursed, former employees say, end quote. If true, these allegations are not only incredibly unethical, they are illegal. And to compound these possible crimes, mr. Dejoy would have lied to congress as well. The United States Postal Service is one of our nations most trusted institutions. It dates back to the very founding of our country as mentioned in our constitution and consistently receives the highest rating of federal agencies from the public. Every day it provides millions of people with access to critical mail, medications, and especially in this unique election mailin ballots. But how long can we expect the faith of the American People to last if the Postal Service is tainted by partisan leadership and alleged criminal activity . These are just a few of the reasons why i have introduced the nonpartisan postmaster general act which will prevent Postal Service leadership from participating in any political activity and will prevent anyone who has held a political position in the last four years from being hired as postmaster general or deputy postmaster general. This is critical timesensitive legislation that the full committee will consider this week. Again, i thank chairman conley for holding this important hearing and the witnesses for being here today and i look forward from hearing from all of my colleagues on both both sides of the aisle on this vital issue. I yield back the balance of my time. I thank the chairwoman and i thank her for her leadership. After she was elected chairwoman, she and i had a conversation minutes after the election on the floor of the house and the very first thing she brought to my attention was postal reform. Obviously, thats been a priority youve said since you became chairwoman of this committee and i appreciate it. I look forward to working with you on it and my colleagues and others. Thank you. Im going to now call on congresswoman Brenda Lawrence for an Opening Statement and th then, mr. Keller, you will be called on for an Opening Statement and then we will hear from our witnesses. I want to thank chairman conley for holding this important hearing. Prior to serving in congress, i want the record to reflect that i spent almost 30 years with the United States Postal Service. During that time i worked alongside some of the nations most dedicated public servants. Individuals who worked long hours to ensure that the American People across this country received their mail in a timely manner. The Postal Service existence is as critical Government Service is a critical Government Service that began in 1775. Throughout history whether it was world wars or Global Pandemics, the Postal Service rose to the challenge and continued to deliver mail across this country and throughout the world. During the civil war, the Postal Service did not cease their operations. During the 1918 flu outbreak which was the same as the pandemic, covid19, that were going through, the Postal Service never stopped continuing to move the mail. Even while people were dying within the service. And to this day, the Postal Service ability to deliver mail to our nations Heroic Service members serving at home and even abroad in a war zone provides a vital link to their families and to the friends back home never before have i seen a postmaster general undermine the Postal Services ability to do its work by undertaking the kind of drastic and illformed operation changes that our current postmaster general mr. Dejoy has instituted in recent months. In a hearing before this very Committee Last month, the postmaster general confessed that he didnt know the Postal Services stated mission and he couldnt explain some of his most harmful operational changes. I feel like im stating the obvious, but a businessman with absolutely to experience serving in the Postal Service should not change operational procedures without first grasping the negative impacts that they would have on our delivery. I want everyone to know that he ordered the removal of more than 700 sorting machines just this year alone, nearly double the average number of mail sorting machines that is removed on an annual basis. While i try to find the best in people, mr. Dejoys recent reversal can better be understood as an omission that his policies ended up being more disastrous to the Postal Service than he even understood. Regardless, mail sorting machines are still be removed leading us to question whether mr. Dejoy is serious about correcting his mistakes. In the more than four months, think about this, 700 machines and hes only been there four months. He has caused incredible harm to the reputation and trust that the American People have in the Postal Service. We cannot take this situation lightly in the midst of a Global Pandemic when millions of americans may plan to vote by mail. The disastrous policies by this Postal Service jeopardizes the American Peoples wellbeing and pose an immediate threat to our democracy. I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses Today. Again, i want to thank the chairman and i yield back. Thank you, ms. Lawrence. Thank you for your service. Mr. Keller, youre recognized for a fiveminute Opening Statement. Thank you, mr. Chairman. First i would like to echo the sentiments of the Ranking Member and say reports about the postmaster general are speculation. This hearing is another attempt to attack the postmaster general instead of tackling the real issue of postal reform. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle have been critical of the postmaster generals focus and launched into conspiracy theories that these are tied to destroying the Postal Service. The key question is, why does usps need to be efficient . The answer is simple, its so americans can have a reliable and affordable Postal Service. As one of our witnesses has mentioned in his testimony, the postal reorganization act of 1970 established a usps to be a selfsustaining businesslike entity that would cover its costs primarily with revenues from postage. When the Postal Service is spending money on inefficient routes or extra machines, those costs get passed onto americans and businesses in the form of slower service or increased postage. Meaningful postage reform will require changes from the status quo and the current broken Business Model that results in regular threats to insolvency. The Government Accountability Office Published a report and the title says it all, u. S. Postal Service Congressional action is essential to enable a sustainable Business Model. Uspss financial viability has been on gaos highrisk list since 2009 due to their poor condition, worsened by the longterm decline in mail since the rise of the internet. Gao found that first class mail declined 44 since fiscal year 2006 and that the Retiree Health benefit fund is projected to be depleted by 2030 if the Postal Service continues to not make payments. These are the issues we need to focus on and develop bipartisan solutions. We also need to hear from stakeholders who rely on the mail, like mr. Plunkett who the republicans invited. We need to hear from them about reforms that should be put in place. Furthermore, the Postal Service needs to communicate a longterm Business Plan to congress an item ive been requesting since the previous postmaster generals tenure. None of that is achieved by todays hearing. Lastly, i want to address the false notion about prioritizing the Postal Service. Mr. Chairman, i would like to submit to the record the usps Mission Statement from the agencys website adopted by the board of governors on april 1st, 2020. Without objection. Thank you. This statement was adopted by the very board of governors that some Witnesses Today claim are hyper partisan actors. It was all created before postmaster dejoy aremovrived an remains unchanged. Its mission is to serve the American People and bind our nation together by maintaining and operating our unique, vital and resilient infrastructure. And to carry out this mission, the board of governors states that the Postal Service will remain and when integral part of the United States government providing all americans with universal and open access to our unrivalled delivery and storefront network. The Postal Service is a crucial part of our Nations Communications and commerce. Fearmongering and sham hearings only weaken the Publics Trust in such an important institution. Thank you, and i yield back. Thank you, mr. Keller. I would also ask that we enter into the record the findings of the Trump Task Force that President Trump put together just a few years ago that in fact did recommend privatization of the Postal Service contradicting the statement of the board of governors. Theres a contradiction that should be in the public record. Our first witness is ann revel who is a former chair in California Political practices chair, serving as adjunct professor from uc berkeley law. And well hear from David Fineman and currently serves as a senior partner at fineman and Harris Center for elections. And well hear from lisa graves. After that well hear from Michael Plunkett who is the president and ceo for the association of postal commerce and richard painter, who is here with us in realtime, a familiar figure here on this committee who is a former chief white house ethics lawyer under the Bush Administration and current law professor at the university of minnesota. If we could ask all of our witnesses to be unmuted and if you would raise your right hands. If you would rise, mr. Painter, and raise your right side. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony youre about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. I do. Let the record show that all of our witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. Without objection your written statements will be made part of the record. We ask you to summarize in your fiveminute Opening Statement what you want the committee to know. Ms. Revel, welcome. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. In his farewell address, president obama said something that is pertinent to this hearing. Our democracy is threatened whenever we take it for granted. All of us, regardless of party, should throw ourselves into the task of rebuilding our democratic institutions. When voting rates are some of the lowest among advanced democracies, we should make it easier, not harder, to vote. When trust in our institutions is low, we should reduce the corrosive influence of money in our politics and insist on the principles of transparency and ethics in public service. Weve unfortunately allowed our institutions that are meant to protect our democracy to atrophy and were seeing the results. We can certainly see it in the actions of mr. Dejoy which is why its so important to have this hearing on mr. Dejoys violations of Campaign Finance laws, his ethical transgressions and his potential to suppress the vote of americans through the Postal Service which has been noted is crucial for all citizens to be able to cast their ballots. The almost 1 million that was contributed by mr. Dejoys employees to political candidates at his urging, which was paid back in the form of bonuses, is an illegal straw donor scheme, funds that are deverted from the Corporate Treasury and laundered to contribute to a candidate are prohibited. Even Citizens United held that corrupting for a corporation to contribute directly to candidates and funneling the money through employees is clearly illegal. Discussing similar facts in 2017, the United States department of justice concluded in their federal prosecution of election offenses manual that a contribution in the name of another is often used to disguise other Campaign Finance violations by those who are at their contribution limit and a common conduit scheme involves a corporate official who instructs Corporation Employees to make contributions to a candidate and then reimburses them from corporate funds. Generally, they said, through fictitious bonuses or pay raises. Mr. Dejoys actions are the poster child for these violations. Additionally, he coerced his employees to contribute. They wouldnt be promoted if they didnt contribute. The doj manual again states that in all employment situations, the potential for coercion express or implied is inherent in the supervisors subordinate relationship. So contributions solicited from a subordinate arent voluntary. Its illegal to coerce anyone to make a donation. Its also a threat to democratic processes because workers freedom of expression and exercise of their own political views is threatened. But in nearly every case of major significance over a decade, the fec had not investigated serious allegations such as this and rarely enforced the law. Its well known that the laws can be ignored. These ethics laws meant to stop corruption and provide valuable information to voters are essential to the integrity and fairness of the political process and to ensure trust in government. The failure of these protections led to where we are today with mr. Dejoy who was skirting Campaign Finance laws knowing that with no sequences for violations, he could be rewarded for his illegal and unethical acts. Now we have to be vigilant that our right to vote wont be impacted by a politicized Postal Service. Across the political spectrum, faith in the democratic process desen grats as americans might question both the validity of the election and the governments response to the voting challenges that were facing. One important comment here, to return faith in our democracy and put our protections back, we need to have hr1, the for the people act, enacted. Thank you so much. Thank you, chairwoman. Right on the nose. Appreciate it. Chairman David Fineman. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for inviting me to participate in this hearing. I am the chairman of Nonpartisan Group that works diligently to ensure that every american has a right to vote. I served during both the clinton and Bush Administrations as on the board of governors on the United States Postal Service and was chairman from 2003 to 2005. During the Bush Administration as its chairman. I would also indicate to you that never did i hear from the president of the United States or any member of the executive branch regarding postal affairs. I was offended when the president referred to the Postal Service as a joke. I was even more offended when i realized that there was 600,000 employees who were not a joke, who were risking their lives to deliver the mail every day. Folks like al rosen who left who after world war ii joined the United States Postal Service in philadelphia, stayed there for over 30 years and led a strike in 1970. You see als son joe is a Fraternity Brother of mine. Joe, after graduating college, joined the fbi. He had a distinguished career this the fbi and became an immigration lawyer in philadelphia. There are hundreds and thousands of stories like this, of middle class families being affected by their jobs at Postal Service and al rosen was not a joke. In 1968, it came evident to the American Public that the post office was failing in its mission to deliver mail on a timely basis. As a result the Capital Commission issued a report in june of 1968 begins by describing how mail is piling up and not being delivered in chicago and it concludes that the reason for this is because of the intrusion of politics into the United States Postal Service. As a result of the commissions report, the strikes in most eastern cities, Congress Passed a 1970 reorganization act to take politics out of the Postal Service. It created the u. S. Postal service as an independent establishment of the executive branch with a board of governors who would then select the postmaster general. This process was to lead to an apolitical postmaster general. In 2006, the law was amended again to eliminate a postal rate system and to allow the Postal Service more flexibility. However, it established a law that if the Postal Service was going to change the manner in which it delivered mail on a national basis, it had to go to the Postal Regulatory Commission for a hearing. This postmaster general and the board of governors decided not to do that. It results in 25 lawsuits filed throughout the United States by attorneys general. The law also requires that the Postal Service prefund and weve heard about this its pension obligation for 75 years. This Congress Passed house bill 2382 with 309 votes in a bipartisan manner. The bill presently sits on majority leader mcconnells desk awaiting action by the senate. In my law practice, i sometimes act as a mediator. Theres not been one written statement against this legislation. Im asking that the democrats and the republicans on this committee ask senator mcconnell to bring this bill to a vote before the senate and i also ask postmaster general dejoy, chairman dunkin who seemed to be good friends with senator mcconnell, to ask him to bring that bill to a vote before the United States senate. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Fineman and also right on the money. Ms. Grace. Good morning, chairman conley, Ranking Member hice and members of the subcommittee. Im the executive director of the Watchdog Group north research. I serve as deputy general where i vet judicial nominees. Vetting is essential for protecting the integrity of our democratic institutions. It would put their personal interests ahead of the Public Interest. Unfortunately, based on new information about mr. Dejoys background and actions, its clear that the new partisanled and shorthanded board of governors appointed by donald trump failed to properly vet him to protect the interest of the American People and it continues to fail to do so. Im calling on mr. Dejoy to be fired or to resign. First, as was testified, mr. Dejoy is facing allegations of corruption laws. Congressman cooper asked mr. Dejoy if he had reimbursed employees and he denied it. Based on this information however i respectfully ask the committee to make a formal referral to the u. S. Attorneys office to investigate whether it violated the criminal code. Second, mr. Dejoy has been accused of violating the law before by his own brother. Dominic dejoy jr. Swore that he was cheated out of the Family Business by mr. Dejoy who created private llcs. Mr. Dejoy admitted that they were separate but denied that he did anything wrong. His brother also alleged in the suit which he denied and was settled through an agreement that louis dejoy forged his signature. No postmaster general in history has ever been subject to such charges before in a civil court or criminal court. If he cannot be trusted by his own flesh and blood, how can Americans Trust him with millions of our votes . How could the new governors approve a person with this troubling history to be postmaster general . The third point, the answer appearing to be that his enormous political contributions made the difference. President trump appointed mike dunkin and has helped raise tens of millions of dollars to keep senator Mitch Mcconnell in power. Mr. Dunkin admitted to this committee that dejoy was not originally on the list of candidates for the job. However, following 600,000 in contributions to the rnc and President Trumps reelection strategy, mr. Dejoy jumped to the top of the list. Its wrong to put such a partisan insider in charge of the Postal Service especially in Election Year. His close ties to trump who has attacked vote by mail are disqualifying. Will mr. Dejoy use his power to deliver our ballots on time or deliver the election to the man he has sent hundreds of thousands of dollars on and raise millions to help win, donald trump . Fourth, mr. Dejoys financial con tli conflicts are enormous and unprecedented. He has tens of millions of dollars in stock in a competitor of the Postal Service and receives millions annually from it. No known postmaster general in history has ever had such financial conflicts. His destructive actions. Mr. Dejoys actions since he took the job warrant his dismissal. If he had been a probationary employee, he would have been fired. In an Election Year dependent on reliable mail, mr. Dejoy fired or demoted two dozen experts and hundreds of mail sorting machines were removed, far more than the usual amount and dictated a disruptive change in processes by ordering that trucks depart even when daily mail sorting was not complete. He managed where trucks could park. Our Postal Service deserves a person of the highest integrity. Not a leader of the highest partisanship and arrogance like mr. Dejoy. Six, unfortunately his actions have destabilized the Postal Service and may be paving the way to privatizing it. A long time worked with senator collins in 2006 to weigh the Postal Service down with unprecedented debt burden. An extraordinary liability no other agency or company has. But mr. Dejoy is playing partisan politics. So in conclusion, i urge congress to protect the Postal Services mission and the American People and the integrity of our election by calling for him to be fired by fully investigating his activities and restoring congresss role in approving the postmaster, restructuring the board and appealing the 2006 debt anchor and other restrictions from law. Thank you. It belongs to us. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Michael plunkett, youre recognized for five minutes. Good afternoon, chairman conley, Ranking Member hice and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about the current state of the Postal Service. Im here on behalf of the association of postal commerce. Our memb they conclude some of the most recognizable brands in the world as well as small prior tors. This group is united on its reliance on the Postal Service. The Postal Service is a beloved Public Institution and a critical component of the nations economic infrastructure. Its the center of a mailing industry that employs more than 7 million americans providing jobs in every state and accounting for more than a trillion dollars in annual revenue. Our industry has been hit hard by covid19. The pandemic has brought into sharp focus the importance of the Postal Service to the American Public. Employees have served the public admirably since the pandemic began have been a reassuring presence in our communities during a difficult time. The pandemic has brought about sudden and dramatic shifts in Consumer Behavior that are exposing the underlying fragility of the Postal Service. People rely on the Postal Service to deliver statements, magazines, prescription medicine, and essential business communications. Our members fund the provision of universal Postal Service in the United States through the rates that they pay for commercial mail and shipping services. As Congress Considers how best to provide support to the Postal Service, we urge a measured and targeted approach with safeguards that ensure accountability for how any relief funding is utilized. We recognize that theyve incurred unforeseen expenses as a result of covid19. The understandable desire of legislators to provide relief should not lead to unnecessary deversion of resources. Despite doomladen stories, the Postal Service has adequate resources and capacity to successfully navigate the 2020 election cycle. According to its own reporting at the end of the third quarter, the Postal Service has Cash Holdings approaching 13 billion and revenues have been growing thanks to Significant Growth in its package business. In the most recent postal quarter, they generated 2 billion in cash flow through its operations. No one can say whether these shifts are permanent, whether it will continue to sustain the Postal Service or their letter mail will rebound when the economy improves. But the c. A. R. E. S. Act provides for an additional 10 billion for Borrowing Authority should unforeseen events create the need. It was confirm that had the Postal Service has sufficient liquidity to Fund Operations well into 2021. Not only is an infusion of funds unnecessary, but it would barely make a dent to a financially sound Postal Service. Our members are concerned that any major relief funding might lead congress to declare victory and continue to postpone reform. We urge congress to return to the task of enacting postal reform legislation to secure the future of the Postal Service. In order to fulfill its role, its important that it be affordable and reliable as a means of transacting business. We believe stakeholders will support legislation centered on several critical elements, a universal Service Obligation based on a thorough specimen of what it needs from its system. Safeguards to ensure that the monopoly products maintain pricing predictability, three, utilizing funding, investments, strategies more in line with best practices. And oversight to ensure that accountability and transparency are maintained. Funds appropriated by congress may be squandered or otherwise misused. Its not on the verge of collapse. The covid19 pandemic has reminded us that it remains a vital part of our economy. The Postal Service has the employees, resources, and capacity it needs to perform its mission during the current election cycle without a mass infusion of funding. The challenges that plague the Postal Service remain. Because of the relief currently we respect that congress focus its efforts on much needed and long overdue postal reform legislation. Thank you so much. Right on the money. And finally but not least, mr. Painter. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the committee. Im a law professor at the university of minnesota and from 2005 to 2007 as the chief white house ethics lawyer for president george w. Bush. One of our principle obligations was to make sure that senior appointees and nominees to the executive branch were free of financial conflicts of interest and the reason is, that financial conflicts of interest in federal office are a crime. 18 United States code 208 makes it a crime for a United States Government Official to participate in a particular manner that has a direct and predictable effect on the financial interests of that Government Official. And that statute, its a criminal statute, 18 United States code 208, please read it, members of the committee and staff, it applies not just to particular Party Matters such as contracts and investigations, this criminal statute applies to generally applicable matters that have a direct and predictable effect on an identifiable class of persons or companies if the Government Official has a financial interest in the company. And this is the reason why in the Bush Administration we never allowed the head of an agency to have any financial interests in a company that has substantial contracts with that agency. I certainly never allowed it when i looked at the Financial Disclosure forms and we sent those nominations on to the senate. We would not have tolerated that for anybody in the executive branch whether or not nominated by the president or appointed by the president or anybody else in a senior position. Why . Because theres a grave risk that that person will commit a crime when theyre in office. How can you run the post office and make decisions about scheduling the mail and about the specifications for contracts, about when the trucks leave and all of those decisions if you own millions of dollars of stock in a company that is trucking the mail around . A contractor with the post office. It doesnt make any sense. Either mr. Dejoy, postmaster general has not been doing his job over the past 13 weeks or so or he has committed a crime that could be a felony. We should not be in that situation. Another thing we did in the Bush White House, we looked at the background of people who were coming into public service. We did not want to bring in people who had violated the law. I will not opine as to whether mr. Dejoy violated Campaign Finance laws. I will say if the stories reported in the Washington Post and the New York Times are true or any piece of those stories is true about reimbursement of employees for campaign contributions, is that a felony, people go to jail for that. We have a very real possibility possibility, im not saying for certain, but a possibility that the postmaster general dejoy of the United States may have committed felonies before entering office and in office under United States 108 in office. This is a grave situation. It requires investigation by this committee. Its your job to investigate. Its not a Kangaroo Court and i am offended as an american and having been a republican for 30 years to hear that language used. Its your job to investigate this. I submitted an additional letter with the professor outlining additional concerns about the post office. This a matter of grave concern for the American People. Thank you for your time. Thank you, mr. Painter, for your testimony. And the chair will recognize himself for five minutes. Let me begin with you, mr. Painter. Weve heard that having a hearing that includes in large part an examination of the professional practices and potential conflicts of interests and allegations that have been corroborated with other parts of the media besides the Washington Post Investigation Teams as to straw donations, and do you think its worthy of this committee and directly related to that person . It certainly is a general inquiry of this committee. The integrity of the Public Officials in this country is important, and thats why we screened out people with that type of background in the Bush White House. Why . Because we knew if we did not our officials would be sitting in front of this committee answering questions because this committee is doing its job. Thats what oversight is. Yes, if you bring in someone who has committed Campaign Finance violations, and is willing to do anything including violate the law to elect somebody that they want to be president and to win other elections, what will stop them from doing it when they run a government agency, whether its the United States post office or any other agency. So yes, you are doing your jobs when you conduct these hearings. Remind us what you were in the Bush Administration . Ethics white house lawyer, and i was appointed by the president and i was a member of the Republican Party and i identified with the Republican Party for 18 years, through 2019. If you were in that same position today, would that have raised flags for you . What would you have done about it in terms of the idea that this person could be named postmaster general, or for that matter any position . Well, postmaster general is not nominated, but its an appointment by the ward but if we heard about it we would have contacted the board and made it clear that its unacceptable to have a postmaster general that has any record of Campaign Finance problems, and either that story in the post is true or not true, but we would find out. Do you believe that the board of governors has a tp i worked with directors and on a committee of a big foundation. Directors of tpau tkurb airy obligations and that includes investigating the background of people appointed to positions and screening for conflicts of interests. Based on what we know from the public record, and activities by this full committee and Sub Committee, do you believe the board of governors, in fact, did its do you diligence and a thorough background check before appointing mr. Dejoy as postmaster general . What i hear, what is coming out in the press are clearly things the board of governors should have, and i would have expected they would have found out had they did an investigation . As former chairman of the board of governors, what is your view about the connection of the personal background, professional background of a candidate for postmaster general and that the potential connection of the operations with the Postal Service that he or she would have, in fact, theoretically had . Is there a connection . Mr. Chairman, there certainly is a connection. I understand professor painters point of view, and i would extend it a little further. I would think if theres an apparent conflict of interests we should not hire that person as the postmaster general. You might ask why. Well, its because the American Public is entitled to have confidence in their that the mail is going to be delivered and its not going to be in any way, shape or form compromised by the actions of the postmaster general. Thank you. My time is up. The chair recognizes the Ranking Member mr. Hice. I would like to know if any of our Witnesses Today are currently employed by the usps, if you could answer online if you are . Not currently, no. I would like for the record to reflect that none of our Witnesses Today are employed by the Postal Service and yet our hearing today is supposed to be about a postal update. Here we have no witnesses who are part of the Postal Service. In fact we have witnesses who basically can do nothing on the issue of what this hearing really is turn into being, and they can do nothing but speculate. We have a law professor, a Law School Lecturer who has determined guilt based from a Washington Post o washington pos Washington Post article. I counted two or three times, mr. Paeupblteinter, you assume f mr. Dejoy, and this is not to create political assassination as i referred to in my Opening Statements. When it comes to whether or not mr. Dejoy broke any Campaign Finance laws, mr. Painter, wouldnt you agree you have no more information than the general public has at this point . Is that a false statement. You did two or three times i did not. I will repeat that i do not know whether the Campaign Finance laws were violated. Thats a false statement that i assume guilt. But if those stories are true, what is described in those stories is tpumultiple feloniesd it must be investigated. Its unacceptable to have somebody in a position of trust in our government who is ysuspe of those types of violations of the law, and the same with respect to United States 208. Mr. Painter, you are asking questions i did not ask. I would aappreciate you said i assumed guilt and thats not true. I am going to go on with my questions here. Basically what we have, then, is your opinion, which is fine, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but its a hypothetical opinion at this point because its based on an article. Theres not been any investigation that has come down to it. Can you explain to me what xpo does . Xpo to the best of my knowledge, ships mail in trucks and performs other logistical operations for the United States Postal Service. Once again, i have not assumed the postmaster general has necessarily committed a crime, and the fact of the matter is we have a contractor with large contracts with the Postal Service and theres a very high degree of likelihood that a postmaster general that is doing his job would be making decisions that have a direct and predictable affect on a contractor of that size with the Postal Service. Are you qualified to evaluate whether or not the relationship between xpo and usps has risen to the point of conflict of interests . Yes, i am, because i made that type of decision repeatedly for the Bush Administration. Nobody goes into a position are you a member of the board of governors . I said i made that determination. You do not get that job if you keep stocking a contract with your agency. That is a deal breaker because you could go into Public Office and commit a felony. That i did repeatedly. I told people you have to sell the stock. You dont go to the department of defense and own stock you are going back to your times in the Bush Administration. My question is on this particular situation, and you are not a member of the board of governors and you are not part of the vetting. The board of governors did do vetting and they did look into these issues. Are you aware that mr. Dejoy did divest certain assets that he had . Yes, i know he divested some assets but thats not the point. He owns contract stock in a company that has large contracts with the Postal Service. I am qualified to say that is unacceptable. It would have been a deal breaker in the Bush Administration. We would not have nominated, appointed or i proved in any way of a Senior Executive branch official you may not have, but the board of governors did. He has divested other assets when it came to xpo, and the usps cleared him to hold those assets. He made clear, transparent and he laid out there his assets and he was cleared, is that correct . The board of governors made that decision. But i am here to say its wrong and i am qualified to say its wrong and it poses a grave risk that he could commit a crime while in office. That gentlemans time is sounds like again he just assumed guilt i did not. I said theres a grave risk that a crime could be committed. Frame it in a hypothetical. The chairman recognizes the distinguished chair woman, ms. Maloney. Mr. Fineman, you have extensive experience with the inner workings of the Postal Service, and you spent ten years on the board of governors, and i would like to ask you about the process for selecting the postmaster general. In your ten years on the board you were involved in the hiring of two postmasters, one in 1998 and the other in 2001, is that correct . During those collection processes was it standard for the board to contract an outside firm to conduct the search . Yes, it was. Well, that makes sense, the board is small and needs to perform an executive search for one of our countrys most important independent agencies. Now during our hearing on august 24th, chairman duncan indicated that he put mr. Dejoys name into consideration after Russell Reynolds associates already provided a list of qualified candidates to the board for consideration, and he went into detail and they had many people considered, and they narrowed it down to 200 and then to 50 and then to 12. In either of your collection processes for postmaster general that you participated in, did Board Members add candidates after the search firm had already done its work to narrow down the list of candidates possible candidates . To the best of my recollection i do not remember anybody recommending anybody on a personal basis. Quite frankly, if they did it wouldnt come before the board initially. It would go back to the search firm so they could do their Due Diligence about the candidate. Thank you. The process the board followed in this instance to me seems very unusual. In your experience how is the Selection Process for the postmaster general supposed to work . Hire an executive search firm and the executive search firm gives you a multiple of candidates and you narrow down that multiple of candidates and they do some interviewing and then we come down to about, i dont know, ten or so candidates that we interview, that the board interviews. Well, mr. Fineman mr. Fineman then we make a determination into who we want to hire, and in that process we gather information and background of all the individuals. Thank you. Now, if you were still on the board would you have gone out of your way to add mr. Dejoy to the list of candidates . Would you have chosen him . Let me first say i would not have gone out of my way. If you are asking me whether or not i would have chosen him, the answer would be no. Its apparent theres a conflict of interest to begin with. He still had an interest in one of the largest contractors with the United States post office. As i said before, its not the direct conflicts but its the appearance of a conflict that would concern me. Secondly, if i could just say, if we leave aside the conflict issues, when you are looking for a postmaster general there are certain things that we look for. We look for communication skills. Am i going to is the postmaster general going to be able to communicate with the stakeholders of the that means you and your republican colleagues. Mr. Fineman, we have requested information about the search from the board, but to date they have refused to provide us with any information at all. Do you think its appropriate for the board to refuse to work with this Committee Given the responsibilities that we have for oversight for the Postal Service . Absolutely not. They should be giving you what you have asked for and, quite frankly, they should be giving you more than you asked for. Thap thank you. Thank you very much. And very quickly, the metadata in your testimony says it was written by Jessica Lawrence. Who is Jessica Lawrence . Shes my predecessor from my current position, and i used a document. So she did not write it . She did not. My time expired and i want to thank everybody for being here today, and especially mr. Richard painter. The post office should be a nonpartisan position that serves the American People and you made that point very clear. I thank you for your service for all the Participants Service and your being here today. Thank you. I yield back. The gentleman from alabama, mr. Palmer is recognized for five minutes. I thank the chairman. First of all, this is all about politics, its really not about the post office. The witnesses reflect that. Its remarkable, some of the claims that have been made by these individuals, and ms. Graves raising questions in her work about dark money and sources of funds when her own organization received over 500,000 from outside sources, and mr. Painter, apparently thinks he still is campaigning for office and you are very animated in your responses, yet and you want to tout your republican credentials when you ran for the senate as a democrat. In 2016 you filed a complaint claiming james comey violated the hatch act when he released information about the newly discovered emails on Hillary Clintons computers. This just seems like its really not about trying to resolve anything related to the post office. If it were this would have been done years ago when during the Obama Administration they were going to go shutdown 3,700 post offices. I know mr. Connolly cares deeply about this, and i think you and i and other members of the Committee Want to see reform for the post office, but they were planning to cut 14 billion im sorry, cut 10 billion 20 billion in cuts, and cut 120,000 jobs and close 2,700 post offices, and this is documented in the Washington Post since we are using the Washington Post as a source. I have multiple articles here talking about the changes being made and the closure of sorting facilities, and not just taking sorting machines out but closing facilities. Would my yield for a minute . I would be happy to yield. We will freeze his time. As a matter of record, it was not the Obama Administration it was the Postal Service and it was under the previous postmaster general, and i will point out on a bipartisan basis, there was an uproar in congress and it was being donie unilaterally. And in the last hearing it was mentioned, where was the democratic outrage then . There was a ton of it and i was here for that, and it was done on a bipartisan basis, because that postmaster general did not do his consultation with the administration or with congress. I thank my friend for yielding and his time is intact. I appreciate your comments on that, and it was an outrage with congress but the point is the post office has had major problems for many years, and we are trying to sort this out the most affective way we can to resolve the problems with the post office but now its become political. I would like to also point out that the changes the current postmaster general accused of making were implemented before he took office, and hes the one that stopped them. To make that same point you were making, i think were trying to cast dispersians where they are not justified. For these other issues, i just think this has become so highly partisan, and just as to the divisiveness of our ability of what is going on in congress that makes our ability to get anything done almost impossible. To bring in witnesses who are as partisan as these witnesses are this is not productive. This does not advance the agenda for the post office in any form or fashion. So thats my problem with this hearing. I know, mr. Chairman, where your heart is for reform, but, again, i just take exception at what i am hearing here today. With that i will yield back. I thank the gentleman. The gentlelady from the district of columbia. Congresswoman norton, are you there . We will return to congresswoman norton can you hear me now . Okay. Got it. Welcome. Sorry about that. No problem. Sorry about that. Mr. Chairman, i note the Ranking Member wondered why you were having this hearing and i want to commend you for the hearing. The Postal Service may be the most Important Agency in the United States today when you consider the pandemic and how people are getting their medicines, not to mention the upcoming election. So i appreciate this hearing very much. Let me go on to my first question. Mr. Chairman, rather mr. Fineman, this question is for you because as a former chair of the postal board of services, you would be particularly qualified, it seems to me, to answer this question. It has to do with privatizing the Postal Service. Now, i know that the reorganization document of the Administration Made it clear it wanted to privatize the Postal Service. Mr. Fineman, as a former chair of the board of governors can i interrupt you. Can you turn on your video, please . Oh, i am sorry, i thought can you see me now. Not yet. It wait a minute. Start video. It says start video. Its on. I have been on before. I have been on the whole time of this hearing. I know. I know. But for some reason we do not see you. Can you now . Not yet. I can see me. And a boeautiful image it is im sure. But we have a technical problem here. I can see me on my screen and i can hear me. Well, were going to have to put up with technical problems, if theres no objection, the gentlelady will proceed. Hopefully her visual will come through shortly. Thank you. Thank you, ms. Norton. Mr. Fineman, i would like to know since the notion of privatizing the Postal Service is on the administrations mind, who would benefit from privatizing the Postal Service . And who, if anybody, would lose . Lets start with your first question, who would benefit. More than likely the private services would benefit. As you raise the prices of the Postal Service and as you diminish its capability, more and more people will go to the private Delivery Services to get their mail delivered, their packages delivered and et cetera. Thats who would benefit. Lets talk about whose services would be diminished. I know if congressman keller is still there, congressman, i know your district, Sullivan County, pennsylvania, where i spent a fair amount of time and one of the most beautiful places in america, and those people would not be getting mail on a regular basis if its privatized and same thing for those in potter county. And congresswoman, let me just say your constituents will not get mail on a regular basis if its privatized. People in west philadelphia, they will not get mail on a regular basis. Why . Because its not profitable. The private Delivery Companies that deliver mail regularly universally to the inner city and to Rural America. Quite frankly, one of the largest customers over the years of the United States Postal Service has been private Delivery Companies, because when they have packages that they do not want to deliver, you know who they give it to . They give it to the United States Postal Service because they are going to deliver packages into montana, packages into iowa. The private Delivery Companies cant make money doing it. They cant fill that truck with enough packages to go into Rural America to deliver packages. You made a very important point. This kind of lastmile delivery to places in the United States where its clearly unprofitable, and yet they see their mail every day the way i do in the big city. Its very important to me it seems to note. Mr. Graves, could you speak to the concerns that the board of governors, that a member of the board of governors or a member of congress or a member of the public would have with a candidate like mr. Dejoy that invests in companies that benefit from the Postal Service contracts or would benefit if the Postal Service moves to privatization . Thank you so much, congresswoman for your questions. I think its important to understand that it is a tremendous confidence that other witnesses have testified for the postmaster general to have millions in stock with a company that does business with the Postal Service. The hundreds of contracts it had with the Postal Service, including revenue between 22 and 37 million a year, it helps deliver the mail during peak holiday times, presumably during elections. Here we have a postmaster general who has been appointed this position in part because hes a donor to this president , and he was chosen by mike duncan, who is the man that helps to this day Mitch Mcconnell stay in power in the senate. When congressman pardon me, when the congressman mentioned the politicalization of the Postal Service and i would say to you that its coming from the Postal Service at its helm through the selection of mr. Dejoy by mr. Duncan, whose term has been configured so he would be serving until 2025 unless he is removed. You have a chairman and a member of the board who is two of the most political people to hold a position since the reform. You have the pattern now this summer of the changes and it has affected the American People, affected citizen thank you. I am sorry. I apologize. I said mr. Graves, and its ms. Graves. Thank you. The gentleman, mr. Keller, you are recognized for five minutes. I know my district has been brought up, Sullivan County and potter county, all 15 counties which i do advocate for the people every day, and thats my job and i will continue to do that. I wish the people on the other side of the aisle would have the same concern to make sure that my constituents get mail, to make sure that we stand up for the hard working people in the United States post office, and that process and deliver our mail and do all the good work and get down to really postal reforms kh reforms which is what i thought this hearing was about, but somehow it dissolved into political accusations that were put in print by the Washington Post. I am disappointed where we are headed with this, but since we are there, mr. Painter you brought up accusations in the Washington Post and New York Times. Are you aware they have publish published stories that were found then not to be true . The answer is yes or no. I dont know if this story the answer is yes or no. I think every paper in the country has done that. I said if true its a crime. Again, i wish we were getting down to the issue of making sure the post office has the tools it needs to perform its job, but since we are on political contributions, i will ask a few questions. Mr. Fineman have you ever made political contributions to Political Campaigns . Absolutely. What party . Both, democrats and republicans. You have contributed to any democrats this cycle . Yes. Quite sub ststantially, actually. I have the record right here. I know it. Ms. Ravel, you have donated to Political Campaigns . I am on the phone. Excuse me. I did not get the answer. Could you repeat your answer . The question was have i contributed to campaigns . Yes. Thats the issue we are talking about today. Yes, i have. Yes. Ms. Graves . I have not contributed 600,000 to the campaign of donald trump. How about any campaigns . I would note that you recently yes or no is the question. Mr. Painter, you have contributed to any campaigns . Yes. Thousands of dollars to republican campaigns. Thank you. Mr. Plunkett, you have contributed to campaigns . A small amount, yes. Again, i would think that rather than having people that have contributed to campaigns, we ought to have people in here that understand the Postal Service and understand how we are going to make reforms so this can be sustained. I have heard much testimony today tearing down character based upon stories written in newspapers and other items. If anybody has done anything illegal, i will be the first one to tell you they should be held accountable to the full extent of the law, but we should also be, and what i thought we were looking at was making sure the United States Postal Office provides the service they do for a long period and taking care of our constituents that rely on that and taking care of the people that take care of the work every day, but we are not here doing that, we are hear doing other things and its disappointed. I am very committed to making sure i heard the issue of prepay of benefits. Its a serious thing when the fund that pays for post Employment Benefits is in danger of running out of money in the upcoming years, and its not prepavement of benefits, its when an employee is hired you make a contribution now so over the time when they retire there are adequate Funds Available to pay for that employees benefits. Those are the things we should be discussing. We should be discussing how we Work Together across the aisle to make sure those things are accomplished. I guess i have proven my point. If its about Political Campaigns maybe we ought to adjourn this meeting and go to a meeting where we can get down to solving the issues of the United States Postal Service. Thank you and i yield back. I thank the gentleman. As the coauthor of the major reform bill that was sponsored by my friend, mark meadows, i assure the gentleman from pennsylvania of the Sub Committee chair and the full Committee Chair to postal reform. The issue before us being discussed was not whether somebody made a Political Campaign contributions. Theres nothing wrong with that. Well, it was whether straw donations occurred, whether there was, a, pressure or coercion and a violation of law by covering those donations through bonus or salary, and that is illegal, and that is what is being pursued, not a contribution. In the United States of america, under the constitution, they are not supposed to be proven guilt your or innocent by a newspaper article. Yes, and we have an ethical obligation to examine charges that has been made for somebody with the responsibility running one of the largest offices in the country. Well, lets call people that can testify to that and not somebody relying on a newspaper. You are trying to discredit this examination as having nothing to do with the operations of the Postal Service, and with that respectfully, i disagree. The chair will now recognize the gentleman from maryland, mr. Sarbanes. Can you hear me . And we can see you. Postmaster general dejoy and in that hearing mr. Dejoy stated, quote, i have no patterns of misconduct in my background, end quote. Obviously based on what we know now, based on some of the testimony we are getting today we know that assertion is absurd. In fact against the endless parade of conflicts of interests, mr. Dejoys conduct sinks to new depths. Lets look at this and i want to pick up on the straw donor situation we have been talking about. Mr. Dejoy was chairman and ceo from 2003 to 2014, and as the posts reported between t2014 t 2017, he may have awarded employees ms. Ravel if the articles in the post articles in the posts are true, would you say that would qualify as misconduct . Yes, if they are true, and since they quoted employees who that there is veracity to it, it would certainly acity qualify as criminal conduct in addition to civil. So there is no question about it, and which is why in my testimonykykykys i quoted the department of justice who in 2017 indicated that these sorts of schemes are clearly illegal and they are, in fact, over 10,000 that person could be convicted and sent to jail for two years, and even more, which is what is alleged in this case, for five years. So i think they are very serious allegations. In fact, the thank you for that. The posts found between 2000 and 2014, 124 individuals who worked for the company together gave more than 1 million to federal and state gop candidates. This is worth noting. Many of these individuals had not previously made political donations, and they have not made any political donations since leaving the company. So something was going on there. As a former commission of the federal election commission, i would be interested in knowing if you know whether if the allegations are true exactly how mr. Dejoys actions violate the federal election laws . What is the chapter and verse on that in terms of the straw donor schemes . Were not hearing you. Oh, so sorry. Although i am so sorry for the sound in the background. It is illegal and a felony to reimburse contributions. Theres no question. Those charges are serious and willness, and thats what the law provides. When a person contributes, wants to contribute to a campaign but doesnt want to disclose that they are the donor either because its an illegal contribution from a corporation or for some other reason that they dont want to be identified, the statute is extremely clear that that is that on its face illegal. Let me jump in, ms. Ravel. I want to get something on the record from you. If the fec should hold mr. Dejoy accountable, who is culpable in situation like this where employees are being paid to act through the company for contributions they make, and what would you say to employees who are wrestling who wanted to come forward and provide information about the donor . The gentlemans time has retired but the witness may respond. Thank you. When the ceo is making these kind of contributions, its the ceo who is culpable. That is very clear in the law. If the recipient committee knows they received the money through a fraudulent scheme, they should refund the money to the original source, but given the information we know it would not eliminate the culpability of the person who gave in the straw donor scheme. Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman from wisconsin, mr. Grothman is recognized for five minutes. I would like to thank mr. Palmer for his questions. It should not matter the political background of somebody, but i have been left under the impression that mr. Painter was a democrat unless mr. Palmer brought up that he was republican, unless mr. Palmer had run for mr. Chairman, i am not a democrat. I am an independent. Thats not true. I ran in an open primary as an independent. Okay, but not a republican. Mr. Plunkett, a lot of the attention i am ssorry, did you say youe an independent go ahead, mr. Grothman. Are you saying you are an independent now . Yeah, i became an independent because i was disgusted with the Republican Party. The most Office Master general dejoy is trying to reign in the costs. Do y any effort that makes the Postal Service more efficient and are beneficial to all users of the system, and theres a report showing in 2014 to 2019, over time usage increased at the Postal Service by 30 despite the fact that mail declined in every one of those years. We care very much that efforts are maintained to keep the Postal Service efficient and to remove unnecessary costs. So you dont feel there has been any sabotaging of the post office or mail . You feel things that have been done so far are moving things in the right direction . I would say the things we have observed so far are very consistent with similar efforts in the past under different postmasters general and were not all that surprising to be honest . How long you have been in Postal Service policy . This is my fifth year, and i worked for the Postal Service for approximately 28 years. So if anybody should know about the Postal Service it should be you. How has the post office, how long has the post Office Service lost money . Since 2008. Do you have any suggestions . I think efforts to concentrating the lastmile Delivery Network as efficient as possible. As i said in my testimony i think there are Things Congress could do that could relieve some of the unnecessary and burdensome retirement funding that would benefit the system. I think we need to take a look at the Postal Service universal Service Obligation and determine what the American Public needs in the 21st century. It goes back to 1970 and it needs reexamination. And 25 billion in a fiveyear period was paid for over time, and then the straight pay increased by 430 during that time. How could we get those costs under control . Do you have any specific ideas on over time . The report was not as detailed in providing complete answers as to how that should take. For example, some things we know the Postal Service is attempting to do, taking out excessive equipment, and eliminating unnecessary transportation trips, and all that can help and help the costs of the Postal Service remain under control. Some of the Postal Services in my district are telling me they are getting more overtime than they want. Overall, in my life i have had one letter not delivered to me on time. Do you feel overall the post office is doing a good job delivering the mail . In general, yes, the post Office Delivers mail well, especially firstclass mail. I think they have been tested because the increase in packages they are seeing because of the pandemic, its not what they are were designed for but overall they do a good job delivering the mail. Is it true the Postal Service, is it true their sales have gone up the last since the pandemic . Actually, yes, in the last few months the Postal Service is exceeding revenue expectations. Thank you very much and thank you for the time, mr. Chairman. I will enter into the record what has already been entered into the full committee record, the Service Performance measurement, a briefing of the postmaster general by the Postal Service which shows contrary to what mr. Plunkett asserted, quote, a sharp decline in Service Since week 41, which happens to be the same week in which mr. Dejoy took over the Postal Service, and it consistently shows a fairly substantial 7 to 8 decline in service below the baseline. So its not a normal fluctuation according to the Postal Services own documentation. I will enter that into the record. Ms. Spieir, you will be next. Mr. Lawrence, welcome. Thank you so much. I want to say as we are having this dialogue, lets not forget that this is an Election Year and we are being confronted with voting by mail, and mr. Dejoy, just like we mentioned, there should be a prcomprehensive pla. I have sat in on the hearings, and [ inaudible ] why didnt mr. Dejoy do his job and present to us his plan for a comprehensive plan for the Postal Service . I would be glad to have that conversation. Today we are here in the midst with the president of the United States continuously attacking the Postal Service and its long standing ability to service people, so we are doing our job. If the president is saying the Postal Service is not operating, if we have a postmaster general who is not doing his job and has admitted that he doesnt understand the post office and we are sitting here today saying we need postal reform, then thats what we are supposed to be doing. I join my colleagues in saying we will have that conversation any day of the week. So with that being said, recently millions of americans received a mailer from the United States Postal Service urging people to vote by mail. Not surprisingly, mr. Dejoy does what he has done in other situations, he did not consult with the key stakeholders. So he actually mailed a mailer, that tells the American People across the country, even though we have different every state has established their own plan that says request your mailin ballot or absentee ballot at least 15 days before election day. We have states like colorado who mails everybody an absentee ballot an application, and we did it here in michigan. Are you saying you having an absentee ballot mailed to you, but now go and call your state and request the ballot. Its confusing. Given the circumstances surrounding mr. Dejoys actions, and just the conflict that we are seeing, the voter inteaggri commission, what should we be doing as members of congress to ensure these actions we continue to see will not continue to be a form of oppression as some are calling it, and others are seeing it as a way to interfere in the voting process. Can you give me your educated opinion on what is happening . Yes. Thank you. I was the recipient of one of those and i know a lot about voting and yet i was confused as to why they were telling me this, because i live in california where everyone gets a vote a ballot. I think its so important that if mr. Dejoy is not held accountable either by this public discussion of his behavior, alleged unethical behavior, but i believe theres sufficient evidence to see that, and mr. Dejoy, rather than acting independently because of his Campaign Finance conflicts will do whatever it takes to appease the person who got him where he is, the president. In particular with regard to the opposition to mail ballots and his attempts to undermine the trust and confidence that people have in our electoral system. We know that when people believe that there is going to be an issue with the electoral process, often it is essentially Voter Suppression and it leads them not to vote because of fear of voting or in the case of the mail that they are concerned they will need to expose themselves to covid19 instead of mailing in order to cast a vote. Thank you. The gentleladys time has expired. Thank you. Thank you, ms. Lawrence. Mr. Chairman, just to bring clarification to the point of mr. Grothman brought up. Tthe Washington Post has mr. Painter registered as a democrat. Excuse me. Thats not true. I did not register as a democrat. Mr. Chairman may i respond. Hes challenging the credibility of my testimony. Ads a matter of fact, mr. Painter, do you wish to correct the record . Yes, i do, and mr. Ken martin chastised me for refusing to say i was a democrat and used me to beat me in the primary in the race against smith. In minnesota we have open primaries. I have a right as a an independent to run in a republican primary or a democrat, and i will choose to do so in the future if i want to. Mr. Chairman, i respect that right. I was just clarifying mr. Gothmans point to the articles. A series of articles, one from cnn on Financial Disclosures reveal postmasters financial entanglements, and the second is the article on postal contracts awarded to dejoy ranked company questioned in 2001 by the Postal Service oughtough audit. And then from the guardian, winning control of family firm, court files allege. And then finally the Washington Post article that has been referred to on multiple occasions on mr. Dejoys rides as the gop fundraiser powered by contributions from Company Workers who were later reimbursed, former employees say. Without objection all of the articles will be entered into the record of this hearing. The chairman now five minutes. Thank you all for being here today. I have a number of entries that i would like to make into the record. One is the tips for treasurers from the fec contribution and is the other is strictly prohibited. The fec complaint filed by crew against mr. Dejoy, and also a letter from the project for government oversight. Without objection. Those documents shall be entered into the record. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me also enter into the record the actual postal customer postcard that i received that has been the topic of conversation here this morning. It appears the colorado secretary of state attempted to get the postmaster to correct the postcard for colorado voters and it was ignored and the usps mailer was being presented only as a recommendation for whatever that means. I would like to without objection. Let approximate record show the chairman also received that postcard in virginia. All right. Let me go to ms. Revel. As a former fec director, you know the law very well. You indicated that if in fact employees were coerced and you included in coercion the word implied. If they had a fear of being fired or not be promoted, we do know that there is a Human Resource director of mr. Dejoys former company that has made these statements. Would you agree or maybe firm up what you mean by implied. The fact that you dont campaign about it but are fearful that you may lose your job or not be promoted would be implied coercion . Is that correct . Well, let me say that the department of justice discussion of this issue made it very clear that just asking, its implied. Because of the unequal relationship between a boss, an employee, that in itself is coercion. And they are just asking thank you very much. Yeah. And then the other thing that is interesting, if in fact you then either provide them a bonus at the end of the year, you get a business Tax Deduction as the employer, is that not correct . So theres lots of violations going on, it would appear. Let me move on, then, to mr. To mr. Painter. You were a former white house ethics lawyer, associate counsel to george w. Bush, you were a republican for 30 years, youre now an independent. Lets make that clear to everybody. Mr. Dejoy has retained his interest of anywhere between 30 million and 75 million in the company xpo logistics. We know that the Postal Service has paid xpo 33 million to 45 million annually since 2014 including for highway route contracts. Records show a surge in revenue for xpo for the Postal Service since mr. Dejoy took over. They were paid about 14 million over the past ten weeks. If you go back to the same period of time last year, it was only 3. 4 million. Mr. Painter, does that create a conflict of interest. It sounds like somebody is making a lot of money. The conflict of interest is created by the fact that the postmaster general has a financial interest in a company that is contracting with the Postal Service. And obviously if hes making any decisions that have a direct impact on that company, he violates the criminal conflict of interest statute. Whether the violations occurred or not, i cannot opine for certain and i cannot opine that those violations have added to the profitability of the company. I can say somebody is doing very well. But its illegal for any United States Government Official to participate in a particular matter that has an effect on their financial interest. And im afraid theres a grave risk that the postmaster general could be doing just that. Thank you. My time is expired. I yield back. Ms. Plaskett, you are now recognized. Congresswoman plaskett. We will come back to her. Congressman raskin. Representative raskin, are you with us . Yes, indeed. Thank you very much. You are now recognized. I appreciate it. Thank you for calling thises astounding hearing. Postmaster general dejoy has 35 million invested in xpo which is a private contractor of the u. S. Postal service. Last year he made between a million and a half and 11 million from xpo in dividends and gains. Mr. Painter, you were george w. Bushs chief white house ethics counsel. Would you have signed off on louis dejoys appointment as postmaster general if you had been advising the board of governors or even if you had been in the administration without his commitment to divest the 30 to 75 million that he owns in stock in this private contractor that gets contracts from the post office . Absolutely not and the board of governors might have contacted the white house to ask about this type of situation and we would have told them no way. If someone has stock in a contractor, they must divest if they want a job with the agency. That was the position of the Bush Administration. That is a rule i never i did not see violated once. Could a secretary of defense have taken office while you worked for president bush while he was invested or she was invested in millions of dollars in defense contractors working with the department of defense. The position of the Bush White House is nogo. Were not going to nominate that person unless they agree to sell the stock, all of it. And they get a tax benefit, by the way, too for selling it. Theres no excuse for not selling the stock. They would not have gotten the job in the Bush Administration. Mr. Painter, how did this happen . This happened because the board of governors chose to appoint mr. Dejoy and this was not a president ial appointment so i didnt go through the office of government ethnics. I dont think theres any way they would have signed off an agency head who has large amounts of stock in a company that is contracting with the agency. Its a nonstarter. But they bypassed that because the board of governors made a decision on their own looking at it and they quite frankly came up with the wrong conclusion. Some of our colleagues seem very angry at you that youre a highranking republican official in a republican administration, you were a republican for 30 years, now youre an independent. But they seem to think that we should set ethics aside and just stand by our political party. Tell me why you think its important as someone who is devoted his life to ethics that we place ethical conduct in Public Office ahead of our partisan allegiance . The criminal conflict of interest statute is not about partisan politics. Its about the integrity that the American People except in government. And we have the right to have a government with agencies run by officials who are free of conflicts of interest. Ive documented in detail in a letter that is attached to my testimony the concerns we have about the politicalization of the post office and i have to say that when we have to worry about whether were democrats or republicans when it comes to delivery of the United States mail, this country is in serious trouble. Why is the u. S. Postal service not released mr. Dejoys ethics documents . Should they do that . The United States Postal Service should release all of the ethics documents, all of the communications about the clearance of mr. Dejoy immediately to this committee so this committee can conduct a proper investigation which is what you are paid to do on this committee. To investigation allegations of corruption and violations of ethics rules in the government, all of those documents should be produced to this committee immediately. The office of government ethics has yet to certify mr. Dejoys financial statement. Is that a problem . Is that something that should happen . Thats a problem. And for us to be at this point with these questions unanswered and the American People is simply unacceptable. Would you think the gentlemans time as expired. I yield back then. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Raskin. Mr. Cooper is recognized for his five minutes. I almost thought my die way never going to come here. I would like to urge the chair to consider calling his witnesses the 124 employees who worked for new breed or xpo who were encouraged coerced into contributing and according apparently to the hr manager of that firm, were reimbursed not only in whole but even the taxes were paid on their extra compensation which is a little bit like committing a crime and then tying a bow on top of it to present. Its an extraordinary thing. I think this committee has a special opportunity here to find out the truth in this matter and prepares mr. Dejoy will be completely exonerated. To have 124 employees put in this situation, an aggregate, about a Million Dollars of contributions, this is a substantial sum of money. But in an effort to be constructive, i think the single point of bipartisan consensus here is that this house passed hr 2382 this winter with 309 votes. Substantial bipartisanship. And that would relieve the Postal Service of this annual 5 billion straight jacket that its required to wear and has been wearing since 2006. This is a requirement as the chair well knows that no other federal agency, no private firm has to wear a straight jacket of this type. So business always talks about level playing field, and no unfair advantages. This is a crippling below to our Postal Service. One of the witnesses testified earlier that the post office is basically since 2008, been losing money. One of the primary reasons is this annual 5 billion charge that is completely unfair to require of the post office if no other federal agency and no private firm is required to pay this money. Would my friend yield . I would be delighted. I couldnt agree with him more. I would point out, ms. Hice has talked about comprehensive reform. One of the sticklers is prevents it from coming to the floor is this issue because it involves medicare, a cost by cbo, and it ultimately would involve the signs off of the ways and means of committee which has been difficult to achieve. I completely agree with my friend. Thank you for bringing it up. To put a finer point on it, never has the post office been led by more partisan people or people closer to the Current Senate majority leader mr. Mcconnell and yet hes the one who is refusing to consider this legislation which if it passed the house so overwhelming, presumably would have substantial support in the senate. Its a particular irony that mr. Dunkin who is from kentucky are unable to persuade the Senate Majority leader to move that piece of legislation which could do more to restore the competitiveness of the post office than any other factor. Another point that has come up in this hearing so far, not only as ms. Speier pointed out is xpo possibly overcharging the post office today. It was revealed this morning by nbc news, as i think ms. Lawrence pointed out, that 20 years ago new breed was overcharging the post office because somehow he got a nobid contract and the ig under the Bush Administration where mr. Painter worked as well, concluded that the post office was probably be overcharged 53 million and that was 20 years ago. So this is an extraordinary thing to have someone who has probably overcharged the post office 20 53. 20 years ago suddenly gets promoted to be postmaster general. This is a history of wrongdoing even if you disregard the strawman contributions. So this is an extraordinary situation to have the post office led by someone as i think mr. Painter summarized who has committed felonies before and during his tenure as the postmaster general. Never has the post office been so poorly led. There are ways we can combine with our republican friends to solve problems like by relieving the post office of this annual obligation. But we have to make sure that the post office is not being led by criminals. This is a real problem. I thank the chair. I thank the gentleman from tennessee. Was that a question you were putting to mr. Painter. He would be welcome to opine. You may respond even though the gentlemans time has expired. Im very concerned that theres a grave risk that there are only violations of code 208. Ive not opined as for certain where they occurred and im very concerned of the reports of conduct which if true in connection with contributions would be illegal straw donations in violation of federal election laws which is also a felony. Im going to ask the chairman to introduce the record to clarify my testimony and the truth of my testimony which has been challenged before this committee, an article in the minneapolis star tribune, saying, quote, party chair called painter, quote, a wol f in sheeps clothing who refuses to say hes a democrat. Thats where we are in this country. Partisan politics out of control. Im attacked by the party chair in minnesota for running in an open party for refusing to say im a democrat and i have to come before this committee and have any testimony and validity of my testimony challenged by republican members of this committee who dont bother to do their research. Im an independent and im an american. And im disgusted with whats happening in the post office and in other parts of this administration. Without objection, the article to which you refer will be entered into the record. I must observe ironically, i hope we dont get back to the point where we start asking witnesses, are you now or have you ever been a member of a particular party. But thats a different subject for a for a different time. He insists hes not a democrat and has entered the record as evidence thereof and we accept that. Thank you. The chair recognizes the gentlewoman from florida ms. Wassermanschultz. Five minutes. If we could begin ms. Wassermanschultz time over again. Thank you so much. Out of practice. Did you say you were on your phone . No, i wanted to make sure it wasnt going to rain. You dont want to hear this phone ring in the middle of this hearing. Good afternoon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate the indulgence in allowing me to waive onto the subcommittee for purposes of asking a question because there cannot be a more criminal critical time for the postmaster general to comply with the committee. However, instead of taking reasonable steps like soliciting an opinion before implementing changes complying with document requests, or listening to the needs of local plant managers, mr. Dejoys alarming lack of transparency and accountability has created more doubt about his motivations every step of the way. I got a personal taste of this stonewalling earlier this month when i was denied entry to two south florida United States Postal Service facilities when i arrived to observe a morning shift. There was no justification for turning me away. My Office Provide advanced notice well in advance notice to the usps management. I had employees with me who were able to escort me throughout the facility. I posed to risk to anyones health or safety. Ive toured usps facilities in the past without being informed of notice requirements. We now have a postmaster general who prefers to hide the damage hes caused and continue to carry out the orders of our lawless president. Mr. Fineman, as a former chairman of the board of governors, i want to ask you about the value of transparency in postal operations. Does the usps have the duty to be transparent when it makes changes that affect mail service. Absolutely. It has an obligation as a matter of law to be transparent. Secondly, it just seems to me that i cannot understand why you would not be transparent with this committee and with other committees just to tell people whats going on and right now were in the middle of an election season. The American Public deserves to know that it is going to be able to have a fair and equitable election. And in order to have that happen, we need a postmaster general who is going to communicate with all of the stakeholders that are interested in making sure that happens and that includes you, madam congresswoman. Thank you, mr. Fineman. Beyond any statutory obligations to obtain public comment, what are the financial or reputational benefits of the usps being transparent with this committee and the American Public, would you say . Its a question of who are your customers. Postal service has thousands of stakeholders. Parcel shippers association, first class mailers, the unions and others and it is important that those people understand what is going on with the Postal Service and understand it in a regular and regular basis. But now its even more important. There shouldnt be a woman who comes up to me and says, im going to push my 80yearold mother to vote and were going to stand in line and i dont care how long it takes because im scared that the Postal Service is not going to deliver my ballot on election day. That is scary. I say to her, you cant risk that. Get your ballot in early, et cetera. But people are scared. Mr. Fineman, as we move closer to the president ial election and continue to deal with the covid19 pandemic, how concerned are you about the continued reports that sorting machines are not being utilized to their maximum extent, even in the face of admitted delays by mr. Dejoy and slow downs of the mail delivery. I listened to the last hearing and i remember you saying that you went into a facility and they were just unplugged. I had photos of that. And it seemed to me why cant you plug them back in and bring a technician in. It would take such a short period of time and the American Public would feel confident and feel more confident that their right to vote was not being obstructed. And the mail would be less likely to be delayed, yet postmaster general dejoy said he would not allow local managers to plug those machines back in. Very transparent whats going on here. Thank you so much for your Previous Service and for your answers answers to questions. As a matter of record, the postmaster general flatout refused on the record under oath before this full committee to reconnect those sorting machines that had been disconnected. Ms. Scanlon, the gentle lady from pennsylvania. I believe i saw you. Are you there . Yes, thank you. I think i have to read a motion in the rules. Im virtually in two different hearings. Hold on, one second. Ms. Scanlon . Ms. Scanlon, youre muted. Can you unmute . We cannot hear you. There you go. Im sorry i have to appear in rules right now. Im so sorry. Well, while ms. Scanlon is clarifying that, id like to insert into the record at this time statements in support of the hearing from citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington, catalog Marketing Economics and two reports by lisa graves. Without objection, so ordered. Is ms. Scanlon prepared to join us . Shes not. Okay. Let me just add if i may for the record, mr. Plunkett, you indicated, i think, that the Postal Service did not necessarily need or didnt need the Revenue Stabilization of 25 billion thats in the heroes fund. For the record, that 25 billion was a recommendation of all people the postal board of governors. It was not a democratic idea. It was by the republican majority unanimous by, by the way, of this board of governors. It recommended 25 billion Revenue Stabilization which is included in the heroes act. It recommended 25 billion for infrastructure and it recommended an unfettered access to the 10 million line of credit that was mentioned. And we tried to act on those two and put the infrastructure piece in the infrastructure bill. Would the gentleman yield . Of course. Just for clarification, that request was before the effects of covid were realized. The context of the request is important to understand. Im so glad the gentleman brought that up. Mr. Plunkett mentioned the 13 billion cash on hand as if somehow that solves all problems. I would point out for the record that the payroll of the Postal Service, every two weeks, is 2 billion plus. So 13 billion is six payrolls. Its hardly a panacea. And they benefitted, as my friend knows, from a surge in package demand. Just as that appeared unpredictably, it could disappear when the pandemic ends. What happens to that package demand, we dont know. Its an uncertain thing to rely on and its not a longterm solution. Which i know my friend from georgia wants to address as well. I want to put that on the records in terms of context if i may clarify whats that . If i may clarify. Of course, yes. My testimony agrees that we support targeted relief for the Postal Service to the extent required by the additional costs they incurred as a result of the pandemic. Yes, the 13 billion only covers a short amount of time in terms of postal spending, but they are taking in revenue far in excess of expectations over the last three months and the most recent evidence is that package deliveries continue to run 40 over normal levels. Theres a need to address the longterm challenges faced by the Postal Service, we need to be careful how we do so. Yes. Was there somebody else there . I would just underscore the uncertain nature of relying on packages in a pandemic. The president of the United States has said many things about the Postal Service one of which was that their problems would all go away if we simply tripled or quadrupled the cost of Package Delivery. As i know mr. Plunkett knows, if we acted on that recommendation, wed talk ourselves right out of Package Delivery by the Postal Services. As i know mr. Plunkett knows, pricing by the Postal Service is determined by the Postal Regulatory Commission, by law. Not by the white house. Not by jeff bezos. There arent sweetheart deals, despite what the president of the United States has insisted. And so getting the price right and hoping this market surge represents a new plateau is an uncertain thing to base the entire future on. And thats why we believe that we need to stabilize the Postal Service for much longer period of time to make sure we get through the pandemic, to make sure that we clarify that all of the resources are there for the Postal Service to guarantee reliability during the election and that we can buy some time to develop a new Business Model for the 21st century. With that, everybody has five legislative days with which to submit additional questions and mr. Plunkett, there may be some for you from my friend steve lynch of massachusetts who could not be here just to alert you that might happen. And those questions will be afforded to the witnesses through the chair and i ask witnesses to try to be as speedy as they can in providing responses. With that, this hearing is adjourned. Weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. The dwight d. Eisenhower Memorial Ceremony took place thursday with a keynote address by Commission Chair senator pat roberts, and recorded remarks by former secretary of state condoleezza rice. The memorial honors the man who served two terms as the nations 34th president following his service in world war ii as extreme commander of the allied force in europe. What the memorial tonight beginning at 8 00 eastern and enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. American history tv on cspan3, exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. Coming up this weekend, saturday at 10 00 p. M. Eastern on reel america, three films about the u. S. Census from the 1940s, 50s, and 60s and sunday a look back at the 1918 flu pandemic and how it altered American Life in ways that mirror living through the 2020 coronavirus pandemic. And the 1960s president ial debate and at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on the presidency, the dedication ceremony for the dwight d. Eisenhower memorial in washington, d. C. Speakers include designer frank gary, former secretary of state condoleezza rice, senator pat roberts, and president iz eisenhowers children. Watch American History tv this weekend on cspan3. President donald trump and former Vice President joe biden are set to debate tuesday, september 29th. Biden supports Cutting Police funding and hes pledged to end cash bail. Just last week, he accepted the endorsement of the antipolice portland District Attorney who has a policy of releasing rioters, criminals and violent extremists without charge. He lied to the American People. He knowingly and willingly lied about the threat posed to the country for months. He had the information. He knew how dangerous it was. And while this disease ripped through our nation, he failed to do his job on purpose. It was a life and death betrayal of the American People. Watch live coverage of the first president ial debate, tuesday, september 29th on cspan and watch all of cspans debate coverage live or on demand at cspan. Org debates. Theres also a link to our Campaign Website with campaign videos, candidate information and election results. Go to cspan. Org debates or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. And now on cspan3, a conversation with former Supreme Court clerks on the legacy of John Paul Stevens from the Bar Association of san francisco. It is about an hour, 15 minutes. Hi, everyone. Good evening, thanks so much for coming to tonights program. The impact of justice john paul