Transcripts For CSPAN3 Tracy Walder The Unexpected Spy 20240712

9 11 terrorist attack. She also discusses her decision to leave the cia to become an fbi special agent, focusing on chinese counterintelligence. The International Spine is ian recorded this event in. February good evening everyone and thank you for coming out to the International Spy did. Because im crisscrossed an executive director of the International Spy museum. Tracy joined the cia officers officer, fbi special agent, now author, tracy walder. Tracy joined the cia straight out of college and served as a staff Operations Officer the counterterrorism center, where she was responsible for tracking down terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. She went on to become an fbi special agent at the l. A. Field office, where she specialized in chinese counterintelligence operations. Tracy lives with her husband and four and a halfyearold daughter in dallas, texas. This evening, tracy will discuss her memoir, the unexpected supply unexpected spy. Taking down some of the worlds most notorious terrorist. Tracy will be interviewed by our very own historian and curator. After the discussion, they will open the floor to audience questions. Everyone will have an opportunity to ask their questions this evening. We are also going to ask that if you are trapped in the middle of a row, please put your hand up and we will ensure you have a mic to answer your questions but there will be two mics on each side of the out auditorium you can use to answer your question again if you cant get out. Stay where you rotten raise your hand. One other administration of administrative notice. If you have a cell phone, please silence it. I will lead by example and make sure mine is silenced. I will kick it over to vince and tracy. I think you will enjoy this evenings discussion. Thank you. The first time we were introduced to tracy was when our Educational Team discovered the amazing work she was doing. , now as a teacher to hug a teacher in maryland well talk about this later but it is extraordinary what she decided to do, to challenge young people. I have taught at every level, from Elementary School all the way through college. The gumption and challenge is extraordinary. I would not have had College Students doing it so it is interesting. She is also on the board of directors for a Nonprofit Organization called girl security, which we will talk about as well, another way she has decided to give back to not only her community but her country. We will hear more about those later but i want to jump right in. We had a long conversation, if anyone listens to spy cast. Youre gonna get a chance to hear a much longer version of. This on tuesday we record a podcast. We had a chance to try out some of these questions before we put it in front of a live studio audience, some of them worked better than others but one that was interesting to me, certainly as an author myself and as someone who has dealt with redaction and classification, whats the process you had to go through to get this book cleared through the cias publication review board, in particular because they can be somewhat problematic and they can be somewhat difficult. Anyone who has looked at the book already, there are lines that were redacted that were left inside. There was a whole lot more they didnt want you to put out. How much difficulty was it, getting this through the prb . First, everyone, thank you for coming. I see a lot of my former students in the audience thank you for being here i want to recognize one. In terms of the publications review board, there were two women that came before me. Sarah crawl some and. Both of them took about two years to get their books through the prb and i credit them with the easier time that i had. Getting my book through the prb was externally important to me. I signed a nondisclosure agreement when i left and i wanted to honor that. I sent it off to them, just hoping it would not be what we called denied in full, which means you cannot publish this period. It was not. It came back about four months after my initial submission with four complete chapters just flatlined. The cia was actually really great. You can email the pr be theres a lot of place in the cia you cannot you can email them back and forth. They will not tell you exactly why. You have to play a game of guesswork. I resubmitted it and it came back with two chapters redacted completely and then a chapter and a half and finally, after i took up one word, which was the name of a statue, they let that whole chapter through and then publishers and i decided the way it was was intelligible enough for people to be able to read. It is tricky because, yes, they do not want you to give away what cities that the cia is operating in if it is not widely known, but you kind of allow the leeway to describe the cities pretty well. Like there is a modern headquarters for their intelligence right on a river and this is near where a famous serial killer killed five people in the victorian era. Oh, victorian, i should not have said that out loud. I am not talking about london at all. I will never understand why they redacted some of the things that they did. I was just talking to someone about this. Why they redacted some things and did not redact others, i do not understand the process. Some of them, in my opinion, it is extremely easy to figure out where i am. Maybe they want people to take that extra step of googling for about 10 minutes. I do not know. Lets talk about your origin story because it is a somewhat different than others. It has nothing to do with you being in a sorority in Southern California. It is the fact that a lot of people who join cia or National Security institutions wanted to do it from a very early age. You did not really set out to think about being a cia officer in middle school or high school, although subconsciously i guess maybe you did a little bit because of what you studied. When other people were playing, you are reading about the middle east. You are looking at maps when other people were doing normal middle school things. What eventually led you to want to join the agency . I think to back up just a little bit, this would have been, you know, when i was recruited in kind of the mid1990s. Popular culture looks really different today than it did then. I did not grow up with quantico or criminal minds or sort of any of those things, so i had no preconceived notions about this is what the cia is and this is where i want to work, and im not sure a whole lot of people did either necessarily. But i do know that i had a really large interest in the middle east and in counterterrorism. So i would say that was really cultivated sort of when i watched the peter bergen interview when he interviewed Osama Bin Laden in 1997. That was a huge turning point for me and sort of when i decided i wanted to i guess do something about him. So when i applied at that career fair in college, that was really the impetus. Most of us in here, unless you are really young, maybe some of your former students, remember exactly where we were on 9 11. It is kind of a turning point in a lot of our lives. For many people, it is the turning point in their careers, the decision to go in a direction. You are already working at the cia. You are at langley the morning of 9 11. This is a question that popped in my head. We talked about how that really has me thought about that much. I sat on my couch on 9 11. I had been out of the army for about a month, just pissed off that there is nothing i could do about it. I could go back in the army, but my knee stunk. A lot of us had this feeling of we have been attacked what a way to know theres really nothing i can do. To a degree, you had an advantage because you could not wallow in selfpity about our country being attacked because you had a second to do that and then it was time to get to work. You made me think about that question differently. Everyone always asks how i was feeling and thinking. Its not that i was happy that people had died in the World Trade Center but you have to compartmentalize those thoughts so you can get on with the mission and work you need to do and stop the next attack work gather the evidence you need to stop the next attack. Having a sense of purpose to do something about it, even though maybe you are not stopping the next attack but you can try in a way that helps us all keep going. You move into the vault, which is ground zero for the war against al qaeda, the war that was created because of 9 11. When i say ground zero, you are working in a small group. You turn around and george birch a standing behind you asking you what is going on. Or Condoleezza Rice this is the epicenter. This is the nerve center of the cia response. How daunting was that . You were 23 at the time. 21. 21 at the time. George town unstinting behind you in and saying who are we killing today . You are not allowed to say that. Who are we looking at today . It had to have been a surreal experience. That was a chapter i was surprised the cia approved. I submitted it and i thought the whole thing would come back redacted. It didnt. For me i was read into that program on september 10, 2001. I was naive and said, we will never need to use this. Obviously, we did. It was intense. You working long hours. You are not really thinking about the people in the room. If you think about people in the room, youre not focusing on what you are doing. Then youre not focusing on what youre doing, which is trying to get people, trying to talk around it. I think you really cannot process who is in there and so i think, what they are doing other you really cant process who isnt there, other than lieutenant whose either in the intent on who is their everyday, who in their almost every day sat with us and hung out with us. And sat with us. He came in he was like a normal picture, a normal he brought Us Thanksgiving dinner, fixture. He brought us donuts, and thanksgiving dinner and doughnuts and bagels all the bagels all the time. He was really great to time. He work with in that environment. Was really great other than tenant, he was to work within that environment. Other than the only one we were super aware of at the time. Tenant, he was the only one we were super aware of all the time. Let me ask you this, the concept behind this let me ask you room, the space this. And im not gonna make you the concept behind this world and space, and im not going to make you say anything you cant say, but say anything you cant this is where you have you say. But this is where are a Southern California girl. I dont want to outyour politics, your Southern California girl. You mentioned you are very overt in the book about what direction you lean politically. You mentioned you are im not very overtly in the a fan book necessarily, of certain administrations, but that really didnt matter. At that point it didnt matter, about what direction you lean politically. I am not a fan necessarily of certain administrations, but in that room i did not matter. We are so used to today. Were so used this is not just because of this current today, and this administration. Is not just because of this current administration. But even under so used to obama ended Bush Administration politicizing foreign paul we are inslee and National Security. It didnt matter where you came from, whether so used to politicizing Foreign Policy and national texas, or southern security. These were moments where california. It did not matter where you came from. Everyone was working together without politics. Nebraska is texas for Southern California that was actually what was so great about the everyone was working together. That was what was great about the cia when i was cia when i was there. I grew up in southern there. I california in a liberal obviously grew up in southern household, but i am california, and a liberal house registered independent. Sword, but to be honest im a registered independent. The the cia sort of helped move me to the middle in a cia, sort of helped weird way. Me move to they did not purposely do that. The middle, in a weird way. They didnt it just told me think purposely do that. They just more about issues not in a help me think more about the issues, not blackandwhite way. As black and it was sort of a gray. White way, what i liked about my it was sort of time there i served under a gray. What i really liked clinton and bush. About my time there, i served clinton and bush, and i was there under both of tennant was them. There under both of them what was so great about that experience, which was really great. What was so great about i that experience is i felt at least people around me, it felt at least was very apolitical. The people politics were taken out of the situation. Around me where political. Politics were some people are taken out of the situation. Frustrated that i had nice before it came up that i had some things to say about bush and nice things to say they did not understand that, about bush, but it was not about and he didnt understand that. But it wasnt, about servicing someones political agenda. Someone it is about what mys political observations were at that time in that moment. Agenda, it was about what my obligations were in that that helped me gain this time in that moment. Apolitical insight when it that really sort of helped me came to Foreign Policy. Gain apolitical insights when it while you were there, came to Foreign Policy. While there was an event people do you were there, there was an not talk about much today and event that people dont talk about all that much today. , and certainly, as its become less unless the key moment in the timeline less a key moment in the timeline of the early global of the war on terror. Surely after 9 11, that is shortly after 9 11, when the United States when the United States had this is an outpost in the bin laden pin dont. Middle of nowhere. And, this was an outpost in the middle of. Nowhere. And you have to talk about a first person call tora bora. Hubert was going on you had a firstperson there, i want view of what was going on you to talk a little there. Talk a little about how bit more about that that panned out and the frustrations perhaps he hanging out in the hiring mustve felt having a chance the end of it. The frustrations to get the guy who kind of who perhaps most of caused 9 11 but having him felt, having a chance to get the slip through your fingers. Guy that caused 9 11. But having him, slip through your fingers. So that night, what was really interesting about that was, i was reading what was interesting about that was i was reading another book at the time i another book at the time that was writing that chapter i was writing the about someone in the ground chapter about forces there. Someone in the ground it was easy to use what i forces that were there. So was actually really easy to was doing and marry it with footnote sort of what he was doing and i think use, what that is one way i got the i was doing with chapter approved. What he was doing. I do not know. And i think thats one way i it was frustrating. Got the chapter approved. We were working seven it was extremely frustrating, we minutes on, seven minutes off because it was so intense, working kind of seven minutes on, what we were doing. Seven minutes off because it was so intense. What we were, doing. I think, people people would have thought would have thought that, once we lost him, that that, once it would have been screaming, yelling. We lost him, that there wouldve been cursing, screaming, yelling. And that that really really didnt happen. It was like the air hug sort of just didnt happen. It was like the air had gone out of the room. Gone out of the room. What people did what they what people did went into their offices i will never know. When they went to their offices i will never know. But in that room, in the room, it was like it was like this sales completely went out and we just carried on the doing what we were wind went out of the supposed to be doing. This will be a theme that will sales and investigate again we carried on doing what we were supposed to be doing. And again throughout this conversation. When i think this will be a theme we will investigate again and about your work, again. Your when i think about your work, your operating in operating eastern time in the united in here, in states in langley, virginia, eastern time in the United States, in langley, whereas the action is taking virginia. Whereas the actual action is taking place sometimes, five, five and a half, six hours ahead of where you play sometimes five or are. Maybe five have even sometimes more than six hours ahead of where you that. So this is not are sometimes a normal nine to five, job this is not something where you get more than that. A scratch done and drive this is not a normal and then get off in 9to5 job where you drive to work and then get off in time for dinner. Time for dinner. Youre working shifts that start in the middle of youre working the night, that do not allow shifts that start in the you to be in normal human middle of the night, shows that really dont allow you to be a normal human being. How draining was that . This is nonstop. We talked to the brief or president bush, i asked him, when did your day start prior to 9 11 . He said i usually woke up around 4 30. What happened on how draining was that . It was nonstop. We talked to the briefer of president bush. 9 12 . I woke i asked him when did your day start prior to 9 11 . He usually woke up around 4 30. Up around midnight to what happened on nine 12 some gender 12 start my day. September 12 . It seems like i woke up around midnight. Almost impossible to keep up over a long period of time. I think it is i think its one of the reasons i it is one of the reasons i alternately im a morning ultimately, person, so that schedule was different difficult for me left. Just an anecdote, to keep up. I am not a night person, im a morning person. So that i would have my best friend come over and wake me schedule is very because it was hard difficult for me to keep sometimes. Up with. I always have my best friend you have to change your whole body clock. Come over to my apartment, and wake me up. Because it was really hard for me sometimes, you just have to i agree with mike. Change your whole body clock. I completely agree with mike, i guess your proverbial nine to five kind of job,. And and that it went out the window. I guess your proverbial 9to5 kind of job and then that went out the window. You went from a relatively stressfree job hunting terrorists to the most stressful job i can who are trying imagine, hunting down trying to create weapons of mass destruction bioterrorist who are trying to kill to create weapons of mass destruction to kill not only a couple thousand people but hundreds of thousands of people around the world. But when you moved to the wmd hundreds of thousands of people group, those of us that have around the world. When you moved over to the studied weapons of mass wmd pores, destruction spent years in what i thought was school. Funny from the book. Those of us who have studied what was master struck, shun spent years in school i studied physics for a long time. You spent two weeks at Poison School, and then sat down saying go i studied physics for a find bad guys . Long time. You spent two weeks in Poison School and then they sent you out and said, go find bad guys. So, its a little bit different or not the guys that it is a little different than that the guys who works the new program, they had worked the new their phd in Nuclear Physics program, those and things like that. Are people who had their phds. So i we did more toxins and dont want to mitigate your Work Experience poisons. , we did kind of more crude toxins and things like that. I think they thought it those kinds of things, so i think they thought if we took those points and school if that would be enough the poison training for us. What alqaeda was school was two weeks that trying to this is really what keeps it would be enough training for us to understand what al qaeda was trying. People up at night, the this is what keeps people up at night. Idea that is not not Nuclear Weapons. Nuclear weapons, Nuclear Weapons are difficult to create, to that Nuclear Weapons deliver. Are incredibly difficult to create, bioweapons, if you drive deliver, but by the pentagon at 3 00 in bioweapon the morning and there are lights on, people ares when you drive by the pentagon three in the morning. Thats because people are in their worrying about worrying a bio weapons about a bio attack. How much going through that twoweek school, weapons attack. When you came out were you when you came even more worried out were even about cause more worried about this . You could see how easy it was . You just help my four students who had to to do their my students had to do a threat assessment in my class on bioterrorism. They had to do that. It does keep people up at 15page threat assessment, night. In my class, and bio terrorism. They feel very vindicated they had to do that. I know you want me to say it does keep it is because the cia has spoiled them all but it is people up at night, i know you want to see difficult to track biological the cia has weapons. Boil them all. I think its very difficult to track biological weapons. I think nukes are nukes require a lot of stuff about launch systems, not easy, its not the right word, but that those kind of things. Requires a lot of stuff. It requires biological weapons come launch systems all those type of things in my opinion. In at you can get them in parts. My opinion, you can order them off biological weapons amazon, home depot. You can get them in it is unfortunately not that difficult. Parts, you can order them off amazon, home depot, its unfortunately not that difficult. What what becomes becomes problematic problematic, maybe people arent is maybe people are not putting the entire piece of the puzzle putting the entire piece of the puzzle together. Together. I think i think thats what were that is where we are probably going to slip up one day. Gonna probably slit at one day. All you really need is an and all you really air conditioning vent. Need is an air conditioning the problem with Nuclear Weapons if you need a event. The delivery system. Trouble of courses Nuclear Weapons that you needed delivery system. That worstcase, a shape with worst case you need a ship with containers containers can sail into report. I would guess they are terrorist really not trying to use Nuclear Weapons because what you i need. Would guess theyre not trying to really procure one. When you combine someone because of what you need. When you combine someone willing easy willing to kill to kill themselves, with themselves with the ease and access of Nuclear Weapons, it the ease an access becomes very scary. Of bio weapons, it becomes very sleep well tonight, guys. Scary. Sleep well tonight guys. laughs . Youre welcome. Whats really extraordinary and i think the understanding of this before i read the book. You kind of have to be on the ground, in those you kind of have to be on the ground in these areas of areas of the the world to truly do this, world to understand the culture, the people. , to kind of understand the this is the first time in culture and the people. Your career you started being so at this deployed places, spending point, at this point you time overseas, in these career youre starting to be deployed paces. All that countries that you cannot talk about my name in the time in these countries book. That you can talk about i did. By name in the book. Yes i did. I know some people would i know some disagree with me, again people would disagree everyone has their own experience with the cia in the with me but fbi. But this everyone has their own experience in the cia and fbi. Lawyer. Was mine, i felt very prepared at least from a cultural i felt standpoint in those countries. Very prepared at least from a cultural that was one thing i thought they did extremely standpoint well. In those countries. That was one thing that i thought they did preparing you is one thing. Extremely well. The frustrations you preparing it was one thing. Might have experienced having the frustrations you might to cooperate with local have experienced having to intelligence agencies you cooperate with local intelligence talk about in the book it agencies, you talk about in the being both the womans side book. The book being both of things in developing the woman side of things countries that tend to have fundamentalist islam as a, in developing countries which tend to have fundamentalist islamic tenant in their governing system but also that they were not quite taking things eight tenant behind the governing system. Seriously as they should have at the time. But also that they werent also taking things seriously as they probably what ended up being more should have at the time. Frustrating for you . What ended up being more you wanted me to get mad frustrating for you . About the sexism. For me and i know we talked about this one called me malibu, people get mad it kind barbie. Of the sexism when it did not bother me much someone called me malibu barbie. It because my colleagues were so really didnt bother me that much because great about being she is the my one you need to talk to. Colleagues were so great about being if you want to continue calling her malibu barbie, go shes the one you need to talk to. So if you want ahead, but you are going to continue to deal with her. To insist on calling her malibu barbie, but youre aisle still very what frustrated me was supported by my colleagues. Who what really frustrated me was sometimes getting getting cables cables, when we knew somebody saying you know im so sorry was trying to leave this but we dont work on country sundays. It was really been saying. Frustrating. Were very as sorry but we a result do not work on. Sundays and you cant because they locate that person anymore dont want to work on the because they dont want to work sunday. On sunday. You have a known by guy in a european country you have a known bad guy, you know where going through a european country or in a european country. Hes a lot and they you know where he is at. They either do not work on sundays or there is not either dont work on enough evidence to arrest the person. Sundays. Or theres not enough evidence to arrest a person, its they are not probably going to attack albuquerque not that we can talk or chicago. About this. Theyre they are going to attack not probably going to attack albuquerque or chicago, theyre going to brussels or china or in the attack people youre trying to warn. Brussels or list and and they are like, sunday is our day off. Stein, and theyre like no i can understand that sundays or day off. I can understand that today being. Today may but in be, 2000 to but in 2003 that just seems 2002, crazy. I printed that cable and highlighted it 2003 that seems crazy. I printed that cable and in my cubicle. It highlighted it and put it on my cubicle. It was frustrating. Lets talk about what should have been the most was very frustrating. Frustrating moment of your lets career. Talk about what if it was not, i do not understand. Arguably should have been a frustrating moment of your career, if it wasnt i dont understand to be very honest about ill be very that. Honest about that. That is the iraq war. And thats the iraq war in 2003. , this is probably something that you just dont like of talking about, you had 2003. A unique role in this is probably the lead up to the something you do not like iraq war, not on purpose. Talking about. You had a unique role in your job was to the lead up to the iraq war. Not on purpose. Look at some of these your job was to look at bio weapons, and the networks that being were being some of these bioweapons networks being developed and developed and figure out how they work around. Figure out the link and how at no time did you say it worked around. At no time did you there was linkage whatsoever anyway say there was to iraq, but what happened any linkage whatsoever to, iraq. Set the scene, ill set the you scene see the United Nations and all of a sudden, whats happening . You turn the tv on, you see colin powell and the United Nations and what has happened . Just to kind of back up a bit, a lot of times what we would do is kind of make link a lot of times what we charts to keep would do is make checks. Terror straight. Who is at the top of this network and how are they who is at the top of this network, and connected . How are they connected to who else . I have no idea if they still do it, but that was a a very regular thing, i have no thing we used to do. Idea if they still do, it but thats something we used to do. The toxin in poison, is a little complicated, the talks in so we poison network was getting decided to make complicated so we had a really large chart. Really big a real cool printer charts on it, we put it on the outside of. Our cubicles. We can make big charts. We put it on the outside of our cubicles. Cia gets the best printers. Cia we put it on the outside of our cubicles just so wes have the best could always look at it and sprinters. I keep everything straight. Guess, just so we could always look at it and keep everything straight. Someone had come through you know it was just kind of cell in areas im in the world that people were working. Our office and wanted a copy someone had of this and it was given to them. Comes to our office and wanted a copy of that chart ended up being the chart, used by colin powell to and it was given to them. And that justify the invasion. Chart ended up being used by powell to justify the invasion into iraq. And colin powell has said it was a misuse colin it powell since admitted it was wasnt just that chart exactly though, it had to a misuse be altered. It was that exact chart title, it was not that chart exactly, right . The title of the chart was changed. You can look it up. You can look it up actually. This was Something Else i was surprised the cia let me it was put in. Something else that i was surprised the maybe it is because it cia let me absolves them. , but i guess im thinking i do not know. Maybe because they are not perfect, but i dont know the title of the chart was something different. And theyre not perfect. The title of the chart what was it originally . I cant say that. What would it what was it end up being. Originally . It i dont says iraq bio, if you look it up thats what it think i can say. That says. Can you say if the word iraq was on the court before . It was not. It said iraq bio if you look it up, that is what it said. Can you say if the word iraq was only trouble for . Chart before . It was not. How did you not call the New York Times the next day . Someone how did you not call the on twitter called me a coward for not doing that New York Times the. But maybe i next day am maybe i dont know i was . Someone call me a coward 23, im not for not doing that. I had so much respect for excusing my colleagues and agency that that but i think for me i have so much respect for that is really not the right my colleagues. And thing to do and that was not for the agency, thats the right time to do it. Really not the right thing to do. And that really wasnt the right i do not feel regret time to do it, i dont about the decision i made not feel remorse or regret about the to out it, but i know people decision i made. Will disagree with me. The sort of outed. But i know people will disagree with me, we were the most concerned about the chart was what we were most concerned about about the not, chart was now all of those all of people that we were looking for, the whole world knew we those people were looking for them, to that we were looking include them. For. The whole world knew no we were looking for them, to include them. I think thats where we were upset, now we theyre all gonna go underground, were going to lose i think that is where we were upset. All intelligence sources to get now they are all going to information on them. Go underground. We are going to lose our we wont be able intelligence work to get information on them and we to perhaps stop will not be able to perhaps stop future attacks. Future attacks, in the immediate, that is so i think what we were more upset about. In the immediate thats were the best we were sad about. Being in a war zone and calling my mom, to see if she can make me an appointment to get my roots done. You know it suggests, things like that but its okay to be a girly girl. And lots of women are, that are are not in the agency and thats totally find. I think another thing that i did, a very very. One of the things that i did, i had a caller sent the dogs that were in one of the places. One of the things i did somewhere was callers for bomb dogs. Somewhere, there are a theres a whole bunch of bomb dogs that have usc trojan callers. Bunch of bond odds that have a whole bunch of when you leave cia, you colors. Leave on a bit of a high that really sideways note. Youre doing exceptional me into the question work. About your transition from cia to fbi when you least. You leave on a bit of a high know you during exceptional work youre catching bad guys to really at the pinnacle and you decide to leave it and move on to an youre catching bad guys. You were at the pinnacle entirely different of a 20yearold career and you decide to leave it and move to a Different Agency agency with an entirely with a different mindset and focus. Different mindset why . I loved the agency. And focus why . So i love the agency its really positive. Maybe that was for the better i still do. My book is positive about it. I left on good terms, but maybe that was for the better. I i think at the ripe old wanted more age of 25 or 206i wanted more stability in my life. I do not know why i realized that then. Stability in my life. I thought maybe i can do and that. I wanted maybe transitioning into i was really the fbi, special agent there, passionate about working and i thought but do it. And one place, working in a large office and and i thought maybe transitioning the able to stay there really fbi can work in one of the large offices. Until i wanted to retire. And that is why i made that people say theyre choice. Really until i wanted to retire so thats you mentioned you are why i made that decision. Its almost counterintuitive because theres so many books out there that are kind of cooling the cia. And sing wrought to the fbi. Your experience that the fbi werent all that great certainly in your training. Which were not very far from quantico virginia, its kind of this mythical place where not only the hiv nba you, and the marine corps but thats the training center. You went there not in the 19 thirties in the 19 forties and 19 fifties. But a decade ago it was almost like you were there, when hoover was in charge. Its extraordinary the kind of rank rancor you got in the fbi academy. It was our was crazy to me was, i had come from the cia where i had no issues, whatsoever, between the genders at all. And i think i was almost naive that the fbi would be the same way. All kind of the same community, and it could not have been more not like that. You mention, i had a hard time grasping it until used the phrase that they told us yesterday. You said it was junior high all over again. It was clicks, who was people back stabbing each other, talking behind each others backs. Just as bad you couldnt go to a teacher, because the instructors at the academy recline of the ringleaders of all of this. So it wasnt just you dealing with a jealous, potential coworker. The instructors themselves were pushing this narrative that you shouldnt be there. I think the narrative all started on my very first day at the academy. I dont know if they still do this, but youre kind of like in a meter with desks. Everyone has to stand up and say what they used to do, and introduce themselves. So i stood up, said my name, where used to work in introduced myself, everyone started rolling their eyes and calling me a liar. That i had never worked at the cia, and that was so shocking to me. You have to come there to give my background check, you can pull out its really not that hard. The sort of validate that, its really not that difficult. So that narrative it was like before i even could get out of the gate, thats what had happened. And as ridiculous as that sounds, thats what everyone perpetuated the entire time that i was there. Thats the thing i was going to say, some of the stories are out of the 19 fifties, where you did a perfect interrogation, exercise. And then got chided because your pig of an instructor thought you were just too goodlooking. What had happened was, and again i dont know quantico still does this. One of the first things we did was interviewing witnesses. It was sort of your first thing that you do at quantico, and they ask obviously wear uniform when you are there. But they asked that you were suit for this particular exercise. So i wore suit that i wore many times that the cia. I didnt buy any clothes, and after i did it. I had no issues with what i had done procedurally in that interview, but what was the problem though is that my suit made me the instructor of that program uncomfortable. So i had to write an apology letter to him. Its worth buying the book. Theres a couple of versions an apology letter or not, thats where the book becomes pg13 a little. I was hoping youd send a note to him. But really in the end, you have a class full of former lawyers. To get in to the fbi, you have to be high speed, you have to be top of your class. Of course you are former cia counterterrorism officer, you had by four had it or harder than anyone else. You talk about this earlier, it wasnt just boo hoo i had it harder, there was so much attention paid to you. That other people who knows if they are trained in the fbi, because the instructors werent even looking at them. So as you progress through in training, you go into hogans alley, which is sort of you do situational awareness. If anyone is familiar with that. And they would always make me the team leader for probably the most difficult exercises. On purpose, and i knew it was to see if i would mess up. You sort of got me thinking about that, did the even test anyone else . You kind of have to wonder, if other people were qualified. As well, because there is so much focus being put upon wanted to mess out. I didnt, but it was so stressful. I would lose my hair, they wouldnt let me go back to my grandpas funeral, but they let my colleague go back to his grandpas funeral. It was just they didnt let you miss one day when he missed multiple days. He must ten days. Yes they said you couldnt miss a single day, and kind of go to the funeral. As im reading this, im thinking, maybe this is like an officer in a gentleman moment. Were there all standing there with tears in their eyes, you have tracey on you could do. It you can push me harder. Its the opposite. They wanted you to fail, what i wonder is, they did have access to your file. They should have seen how qualified you were for this. It didnt matter. I think just from day one that was what they decided they were going to do. It was very easy to check all of that information. I wasnt lying about where i worked, why they focused on me, im not 100 sure im ever going to know the answer to that question. What was really disturbing, some of the people that were just as bad where the other women in my classroom, pretty mean to me to. This sounds like an indictment on quantico and the fbi academy. Everyone has their own experience. It didnt stop there thats where i think its interesting. Your first duty station, thats what i use in the military. Your first fbi posting was the los angeles field office, where right away, your kind of pigeonholed it into doing womens jobs also. Thats not what i had a problem with, to be totally honest. When i at first got my assignment, and again i dont know if they still do this. You go down you open your envelope about where youre going, sort of in front of everyone and you announce. I had gone to los angeles field office, and its a smaller Resident Agency that i was assigned to. And then that created a pro problem within my class to, because you shouldnt be assigned to a Resident Agency. I really didnt care, i didnt ask to be. I assume that id be working counterterrorism, because thats what i did. But instead, so much so that the head guy, didnt believe that i should be there. So he called, and said no we need her clearance to work counter intelligence. So than i was placed into counterintelligence, so thats actually i didnt complain about it i just did it. But its very surprising that they wouldnt take the background that i had and put that to use and counterterrorism. Not that im the best at it, i just wouldve thought youre sitting in a room with george bush behind you. Just seems really strange that were in the spy museum, so were happy you are counterintelligence because we can actually talk about it interesting case. Its one that people may have actually heard of, because of that size of case. And thats the case of and that was really, worked out well for me with my book. Because hes been tried and convicted in all of that. That means we could talk about it. So the whole mac family, had been in the u. S. For actually over 20 years. Some of them had become citizens, the working at a Company Called power. And that company was using radar cloaking technology for a Nuclear Glass submarines. And they took that, stole it, and give it to china. And we found out, what was really kind of inaudible was really kind of need that every part of the cia operation i guess. We got to dumpster guy, we got to do suspicious entry, we got to do all of those things in somewhat of a short period of time. So working that case, it was really neat. But unfortunately yeah so were going to make you read the book to find out how it turned out, it turned out well for the fbi. And stomach has not been tried and sentenced, not for so well for tracey. So let me ask you, why did you end up quitting the fbi . So, i dont want to say full. Youll have to read my book to find out what my essay said to me, that ultimately kind of threw me supervisory special agent that threw me over the edge. I wasnt going to leave actually at that point, but i was living at home at the time because it was really close to where i was and saving money. And i came home and i told my dad. In my parents, the really great parents, but theyve always been a type of people that were not gonna fight our fight for you. You deal with it. You handle it. Thats just kind of how they were. Then i told my dad, and to say that he lost it would be an understatement. I think at that moment was when i knew i cant stay here. But the biggest regret that i had personally, and it was funny. So in the book, i was writing a chapter about how i have so much regret over that day filing over complete and i didnt do more. And my mom is like what are you talking about you did and i think i had just completely blocked out everything that had happened. But i do think i wish i would have pushed it a bit harder. For all the great work you did at the cia for all the exceptional work you do with the fbi. After leaving you moved on to what you are designed to do all along. Which is just to be a teacher in dallas out school, where like i said, kind of where we ran into you in the first place. Because, because i couldnt believe it when i heard what you are having them do. Can you talk a little bit about the curriculum, at a high school. Which think about that these are 16 and 17 year olds. Doing bio terrorism among other things, and its crazy. Im looking at some of them in the audience. I have more than i have a crazy amount of respect for not only you for challenging them, to that level but also them rising up to the challenge. The Pretty Amazing students, i mean my job really easy. But it actually came out of my first day at hawk a day, they all color find out what i did it was just question question they will hang out in my room and during lunch and at conference periods. What did you do. Just lots of questions, from there i realized wow we really need to have a class on this. But i also realize to in this is not a slam on anyones intelligence, there was just a lot of basic geology questions. And i dont mean that in a bad way but in meant sometimes, when russia made in the crimea, it was really easy for me to kind of show my students or i get why they did that, right that was the so much easier for them to visually be able to. See that so i saw why there was so much easier for them to visually see. That i realized we need to sort of have a Foreign Affairs international relations, terrorism, espionage course. , so our school gives us a lot of autonomy in the classroom. So the classes i taught i created that. Class and they are doing podcasts. So so couple of the things i one of them to have a product, why are we doing the sort of thing . The cia connects threat assessments. Some of them are available online. We followed their format and they have to assess the likelihood of a terrorist group. They have to pick it out of a hat. I cannot remember which one i did. And the likelihood that they would commit a bio, the attack how they would do it why they would do it when they would do it with what . Then we send those to our elected officials. Now they do a podcast. The podcast is calls by gals its available. Everywhere apple all sorts of places. Everywhere. These are High School Students and it is extraordinary. I do not pick the topics. These are things you probably would think of in grad school or a high level of college. They are Pretty Amazing. This is something you have put your talents and experience to work trying to pull up those below you. We mentioned the fact that the other women in your quantico class were just as bad as the men. This is somewhat trying to remedy some of that. That is what is so great about girl security. Gina bennett who was a terrorism icon shes Pretty Amazing she sits on the board as well. We design curriculum modules that go out across the u. S. Four girls. They also do board games scenarios once a year. Last year, it was Nuclear Proliferation in north korea. This year it may be election security. Dont quote me on that. Its a way of having a much well spring boarding off what it did hockey day and getting nationwide reach. They hooked girls up with mentors not just in intelligence but a Nuclear Research with an essay with women mentors. With a young girl its nice to see another woman in that position. It makes the job more real to you. So that is what we do. We are going to put this on youtube. For the people who hear this and go, how do i get involved in that . How does someone who wants to help this cause find out more . Go to the girl security website. It is nonpartisan, nonprofit. You can donate. That will be fabulous. You can also sign up to be a mentor if you are in those types of jobs that we are looking for mentors. It is across the board. Not just intelligence, not just military. To include military. We are going to open it to questions now. I have taken up too much of her time. I know that you might have questions for her as well. If you do come ahead to the microphones and line up. I i love to hear myself talk. We can keep going for a while but this is your opportunity if you have any questions for tracy. If you are trapped, i can bring you a microphone here and you look trapped. This is going to be a little provocative. I am working on a novel with bioterror and it is creepy to watch what is going on. Wonderfully thought about this ten years ago but anyway. What i proposed was that a persian in military intelligence but moved out before dont ask, dont tell and it and they are now in civilian life is brought back in the cia or into intelligence because of a bizarre bio threat, which may involve aliens and other things. How plausible is that . The aliens part . How plausible is it that this would happen . Thats my movie pitch. He would be teaching high school, ap history in dallas. It is set in dallas. I have lived there. I do not think that is very possible. He is sent on excursions to investigate this threat. Which is a very bizarre threat. I do not foresee that a something that would happen. But it is a novel as something that would happen, but it is a novel. In all seriousness in all seriousness moving onto the idea of expertise, there is a real problem within the agency where you went on to be a High School Teacher or fbi agent. When you get people at the level of somebody you worked with and worked under, they are very tempting to companies that want to throw a lot of money at them. That is certainly true when it comes to normal cia officers. Did you ever have the temptation to go that route . No. I think some of my friends did. My best friend from the agency did. I do not hold that against her. For me, i grew up my dad is a professor. My dad was in the military. Both my grandparents were in the military. I just did not have any interest in going in the private sector, but that is me. I do not shame people who want to. Everyone is in a different state. Thank you for your talk and book. When youre going through an experience like you did at the fbi academy, how do you deal with that emotionally . Do you use your anger to spite them with your success . Detach a motion early . How do you deal with that . That is a great question. I do not think people realize, not to get too cerebral, how much that damage does to someone. I talked about in my book i was bullied in Elementary School, middle school, high school, but this is different. This is isolation on a huge scale. It was such falsities that hit at the core of who i was that it was very psychologically damaging. Ill be super honest, i went on antidepressants. I am very open about that. I think a lot of it was because of that. You are so isolated. I think the one thing that saved me was i obviously had lived in virginia at the time. In my room in quantico, i had a car. I could go to starbucks. I could get out. I could get it when i needed to but you feel like youre in this isolated box that you cannot get out of here and i do not know that i have this in the book. I hope i do not offend anyone in the audience. Probably one of the worst rumors was i had just had a stage one Breast Cancer tumor removed. I was in a group shower and that started a rumor that i had breast augmentation, scars that i had and i have not, but i am sure you can imagine. That was a process, having to go through and be revictimized by that. It was on another level. That was how i dealt with it. Another way i dealt with it was running. That was the way i dealt with the stress. I do not like to run with people. I never have. It was my way of being by myself. Im thinking about it now. The fbi supposed to be the good guys. That was just my experience. Going in, you are like, im joining the fbi, the good guys and then the bottom falls out of that the good guys, and the bottom falls out of that. They have not changed. I was writing an article on women in intelligence and law enforcement. The cia is not perfect. Im sure plenty of people have had problems there, but the cia has at least been engaging in a dialogue about gender equality. Since the fifties with the Petticoat Panel it was not completely successful, but it was at least a dialogue. Hoover did not allow women to be special agents until 1972. Period end of story. There already they are already a lot of years behind and im not sure we realize how far they are behind and having it be normal that females are working alongside you. I want to say thank you for writing your book. I read it in, like, a day. I am glad you liked it. I have the utmost respect for you. Im going to ask a tough question. Through your career, if whether it be the cia or the fda ive pei it is something you can talk about, what was your biggest mistake . More importantly, i am curious about what you learned from that. And how you transcribed into that a message of hope. That is an easy question and does not offend me at all. Its a good question. I think i said my biggest failure was, in my opinion, not speaking out about my treatment at the fbi. I 100 regret that because now i know there are other lawsuits making their way through the courts. That is devastating to me. In a way, i feel like i do not want to get upset. I feel like i could have done something about that. I feel very guilty. What that has taught me now is that when there is Something Like that going on i speak up right away. I do not stop for two minutes. I think it helps me but that is my biggest regret. When you regret stuff like that, it is in hindsight. The fact is you may not have impacted so many lives at hockaday or girl security if you did not have that experience at fbi so maybe you might still be in fbi agent now and not mentor all the people you have without having that experience yourself. We do not know. Thats one of the things we can go back. And say i couldve done it a different lay away but you cannot change your life. You look at what you have done sense, and maybe that never would have happened if you had gone a different direction. Thanks for making me feel better. We have a young lady over here. How did you get such an important job at such a young age thats a thats a great question. I applied on a whim. Why not . That was the reason i did it. I had my resume on me because i was want to drop it off somewhere else that day. I saw there was a cia recruiter on campus and i thought that was interesting. I applied and they called. My biggest piece of advice is something you want to do is do not ever doubt your ability and whether you should apply. I always tell this to my students. They always say i am not going to get into this college. They know what im talking about. I always say let the school tell you no. Do not tell yourself no. It is kind of the same thing. Its kind of the same thing with the job. A lot of people told me they will not call you back, you will not get in. I think because i did not care i did not think about what would happen if they said no. I think that is what encouraged me to actually apply. Youre welcome. Okay so first of all i have a comment and a question. The comment is that, yes, you may regret not fighting back at the fbi, but youre a writer. That is one of the most that is the biggest superpower in the world because it takes i am telling to a national level. Well thank you. Youre 10 feet tall and bulletproof in that respect. The question i have is that i read an article on you that said you were born with hypothermia which is floppy baby syndrome. I talk about that in my book. In that case, i cannot wait to get to that part of the book. I have it, too. And was later diagnosed with cp. My question for you is what were your physical limitations as a kid and how did you overcome them . Because it seems like cia and fbi would be really physical jobs. Cia, surprisingly not as much so than the fbi. That is a great question. I do not know that i have met anyone outside my family who had it. Not a lot is known hypotonia is when you are born with underdeveloped muscle tone. I do not talk about it a lot because i think when people see me they do not think there is any issue. I do not walk until i was about three and a half maybe, which is very late. Until i was about a year and a half, so i dont mean to age myself but i was born in the seventies. So you know we didnt have a lot of, information about these things. The interesting thing is that doctor still dont know a lot about about, hyper you would think that we would know more. Or move past this. So for me, my biggest issues were i guess what we call fast twitch muscles, i dont know if you guys know the difference between fast and slow twitch. I can run really fast, really long distances thats never been a problem for me. But at the fbi, it became i mean i passed, and i mean just barely by a tenth of a millimeter. It was a sprint, the sprint was beyond difficult for me. So thats really for me, my only sort of limitation. Also, i trip and fall pretty much all of the time. Which i wear heels all the time. And then for the amount of working out physical therapy that i do regularly, i dont show my legs. But if people saw my legs, they would be very surprised by what they look like. I just do a very good job of hiding them. Even my students dont know that i really dont talk about it a lot. I have a few questions, i will keep them very short. So first day of any new job is probably very frightening to many, so id be curious to know sort of, obviously you cant reveal what the day encompassed. But sort of what your thoughts were on the first day at cia. Also, to piggyback on that, what where your head space was on your First International assignment. Again i think that that probably to a stressful, and the third part of my question is, how do you feel about tv portrays tv cia agents . Can i answer the last question first. Because i have an opinion. I really it frustrates me, because i think the women that they portray are deeply flawed. I do think that you want to have dimension to character, that part i totally understand. But there is seriously flawed. I think almost to the point of, only a crazy woman would do this. That doesnt sit very well with me. Because i dont see men necessarily being portrayed in that manner. Thats how i feel about that. My first day when i entered on duty at the cia, obviously i was really nervous. I dont remember sleeping a wink the night before. The best thing that came out of that we are my best friends, who are still my best friends and who were bridesmaids on my wedding. I think that the agency obviously, when you theres so much a secretive, you rely on your friends a lot. You sort of become your family, and they have power of attorney over me when i was overseas. I was still really close to them. My first overseas assignment, i was not really nervous. You dont really know what to expect, but i did trouble with a colleague which was a blessing in that sense because they had gone before and they were able to show me the ropes. Im glad that i wasnt obviously are troubled later from myself, but im very glad on my first one i was with my colleague. Im assuming most of your friends did not know you worked for cia. So what was your upper . I was an overt employee. Thank you. You didnt always travel, i cant really talk about that. Not really. Actually two comments and a question. First comment is, i just want to thank you for the service to our great nation. And second comment, im really proud of what my daughter could become. You broke the Glass Ceiling god bless you. Youre going to make me cry, thank you. The question is, would you consider coming back to federal service . I know the department of Homeland Security would love somebody like you. There are a number of means to come in as a temporary person, or political. laughs i would absolutely come back to federal service. I miss it, i really do. Just sort of makes sense. I would i think though part of me yes i would come back to federal service. You said that wasnt plausible, when he asked for it in the pitch. I think what i think he meant, that the cia would come calling back for me. And i dont think that piece is plausible. You should go. Its okay, they dont. The very talented people who are there, theyre doing a great job. Let me ask you this though, what do you need to accomplish before you entertain that . Do you have goals, you havent quite accomplished yet, do you need security to reach a certain level . Youre just ready for the next adventure at this point. Sensor like 25 years old stole, hes really still have plenty of time. Im in my forties. Any other questions, anyone might have . Thanks for being here tonight, and thank you for your service to the country. What do you see as the biggest threat facing the United States today . A couple things. Inside the u. S. , i think the domestic terrorism is a great problem. And i think the fact that its not prosecutable right now, is another huge problem. Obviously i can only talk to the fbi from when i was there, i cant speak to it right now. But all i can say that when we were there, i did not feel that it was taken seriously. Why i feel that way is because again, i dont want to upset men. I feel like sometime its a gender narrative. Some people, some men, have gotten into the fbi to be on the swat team, be on the hostage rescue team, takedown game. Thats great, we need people to do that absolutely but they looked at being, on the domestic terrorism squad, or the cyber squad, or even an intelligence squatters being less sermon. And i think that needs to change. That mentality needs to change, because if your whole heart isnt in it, you are not going to do a good job. And i think thats a huge problem. And i think more money needs to be allocated towards it as well. In needs to be a prosecutable crime, some people disagree with me on that, but thats just my opinion. From the outside international, i feel like a very good the reason i think thats a big problem, is simply because failsafe breeds terrorists. Even if you look saddam hussein, im not saying he shouldnt have been taken out, dictators tend to be conducive. Two terrorist groups forming. They love instability. And right now libya has instability, even south sudan has, somalia, yemen. We know all these Different Countries are unstable. And if you look at those countries, i would guess, i dont have access to classified information anymore, i would guess that were seeing an uptake of terrorist activity. So that was two im sorry. I want to ask a question no. Where did you come down on some of the controversial issues that concern the cia. I know you mention one of them in the book when you talk about the i. T. , but when youre talking about the Intelligence Community at large. Im sure your students are asking questions about, snowden, about privacy about the Intelligence Agency involved in our lives. How do you answer those questions, that are clearly theyre not black and white, the really gray . Snowden i feel is very black and white. laughs . I know your answer because, but what about stuff like the icy. We the socalled torture program the cia. Youre very gray in the book. Yeah people got really mad at me about that, someone give me a one star review because she was very upset that i didnt condemn bush. And just i can only be honest with how i feel. That was just sort of, what i tried to do in the classroom, i think my students will tell you, but pretty apolitical in the classroom. I try to be, i try to get in the facts and the sort of figure it out, but they know how i feel. About snowden and the surreal state and all of that, simply because i feel like i have some facts to kind of backup my statements. I usually dont make that strong statement, i think with eit the reason that im gray is because you have to look why was there in the first place. Eit wasnt necessarily gaining information, it was eit to make people become complacent. Its really interesting to see that youre like, i dont think we should have tortured, torture doesnt work. Torture and eit arent the same. Nice and gray. So before, i want to thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. And for the book, if anyone who is not considering checking out this book, youre crazy. Its really one of the most interesting ones, reading it as a narrative is fantastic to get, to get that. I was so mad so many times in this book. The one thing she does, is, she changes all the names. But god i just wished you had publicly shamed some of the people at quantico, because i was ready to get in my car. My publishers attorney said that was not possible. But thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. And she is going to stay and sign some books afterwards if you want to take a chance to purchase the book and signed it afterwards. I implore you please, dont rush up here to talk to her. Were going to get her actually out there so she can get to everybody, and sign books before midnight tonight. Please join me, in thanking tracey for applause . On cspan 3, tonight a look at history through photographs. During the great depression, and world war ii photographers working for the u. S. Governments Farm Security administration. And later the office of war information, created about 1600 colored photographs depicting life in the United States and war production activities. Collection career, beverley of the library of congress, talks about the photographers and the images. Watch tonight, beginning at eight eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week, and every weekend on cspan 3. The largest stone fort in the United States, sits at the mou