Shirley chisholm, how do you explain this incredible president ial year . We have gotten to a point in American History where the American People feel a kind of alienation and cynicism from conditional politics. The people feel that the democrats nor republicans that it is all part of the same old traditional package, that there needs to be change in america and that if the change does not emanate from the programs and plans of either party, americans have gotten to the point where they are willing to make that change outside of the regular twoparty structure. But how do you think we got to that point . I ask you because you have been involved in politics for a long time. What got us to that point . How did the parties get disconnected from the people . I think there is a combination of factors. First of all, the parties have not been able to be dispensers on the local and state levels. Particularly on those levels. Many of the district local offices are no longer in the communities across this nation. It seems to me that people became disinterested as a result of cumulative experiences in this country that turned them off. Gate, e, water watergate, the national scandals that came about. The situation pertaining to the iran contra. People are fed up. We have got to the point where they are not really holding on to the following persons in one of the two parties. They are saying, parenthetically, enough is enough. They are at this point in 1992, to really do something to bring about a change. They are fed up. I traveled in the farm communities, rural communities, inner cities. You find people saying the same thing over and over. They are fed up. Dont ask me about issues. You want somebody whos going to bring about change. That is the most important thing you hear constantly. Everybody is talking about change. Bruce do you think that is your explanation for the appeal of ross perot . Rep. Chisholm it is part of the appeal. They see ross perot as a man who is a billionaire and has kept close to his chest what he stands for, what his agenda is. All they know from the little bit they have heard is that he has been a man of action. He doesnt talk a whole lot. He gets things done. Hes an activist. The American People are becoming sick and tired of the same political rhetoric every four years from both parties only to find neither one of the two parties lands in the white house, nothing really changes. They are willing this time to really even following a ross perot if they have to because they know their quality of life has deteriorated so badly, he could not be any worse in terms of responding to their needs. That either of the two parties strange phenomenon. Bruce you grew up in the Democratic Party. Do you think it will survive this election cycle . Rep. Chisholm the Democratic Party will survive. Im quite sure it is going to survive. But i also sense a growing disenchantment with the party to the extent that we may have in the very near future the establishment of a third party in this country, not based on race, but based on class. When you go out into the farm communities, it is amazing to hear farmers tell you, they will tell you it is time for a thirdparty. Farmers have been loyal to the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. These are not the people that go off in either direction. You never think of the Farming Community being of a radical nature, if that is the term a desire to use. But now the people are fed up. I sense this all over the country. The possibility of a third party evolving within the next six to eight years, i would not be the least bit surprised. Bruce are americans ideological, do you think . Or do they just want things to get done . Rep. Chisholm i dont think americans are basically ideological. I really believe that they want to get things done. They have seen their taxpaying dollars being utilized for all kinds of aid, foreign aid programs abroad. They have been invading on this piece dividend. Than the war and the cough was over, that we will use the money to rebuild our cities and our towns and our villages. And all of it has been nothing but rhetoric. So now, they are saying, we would like to get a change. Can you imagine people getting to the point where they dont even know what the candidate really stands for . What is his agenda . Very educated people i have met, black and white, have said to me, i dont care what mr. Perot stands for. Hes a man of action. I think that is very dangerous when people in this country get to the point that you are not really interested in what the gentleman or candidates overall agenda is because they are fed up. Bruce here we are, the 20th anniversary of your own race for president in 1972. What thinking did you have when you announced for president and how was it received . Rep. Chisholm in the first place, my announcement for president was made on the basis of two states in the union. The people told me, mrs. Chisholm, weve got to have some change in government. The time has come where we have to move in the direction of hoping that someday, somewhere, somehow, a black man or a woman can be president. A black person or woman can be president. Mrs. Chisholm, you have a knowledge of the issues. Youre bilingual. You articulate well. You are not a phony. You become a catalyst. The states of florida and minnesota, those two states. At that time in 1972, florida had less than a 10 black population and minnesota only had about a 3 black population. Bruce why those two states . Rep. Chisholm i had been doing some public speaking. When i emerged in this country, everybody wanted to know who Shirley Chisholm was. Who is this black woman who will be the first person of her sex and race to enter the u. S. House of representatives . I did a lot of speaking and they found out i was fairly intelligent. Fearless. Had a knowledge of issues. Not afraid. They said, we desire that you begin to help bring about some change. Oh, i was afraid because i remember saying to them, you dont run for the presidency of this country on the basis of a moral feeling. You need money. I didnt ask for money. But amazingly, within three months time, the state of florida and the state of missouri raised 10,000 each. I got frightened when they called and said, we raised money. I wanted to back out. I became afraid because i never believed this would have happened. It happened. Then i had to make my mind up. Once i said, now you cant go back, you throw out an indirect challenge to them. You cant do this to people. I made my mind up that i was going to make the bid and all hell broke loose. Bruce where did you announce and to whom . Rep. Chisholm i announced at the concord Street Baptist Church in brooklyn, new york. I stand before you today as a candidate for the democratic nomination for the presidency of the United States of america. [applause] rep. Chisholm in the midst of my congressional district, which was the 12th congressional district, i announced to the people of the community and a number of friends that were aware of my announcement and came in from cities along the eastern seaboard. The church was jammed. There must have been close to 2000 people. And the excitement that was there. All of the enthusiasm that was there, that a black woman, for the first time in the United States of america, had the audacity and the nerve to say she wanted to guide the ship, she wanted to be president. I can see the picture now. It was so exciting. But also, beneath that excitement of the idea that persons other than a white male could and should be president was part of an entire drama. Why is it in the United States of america, only white males can be president . Here i was, a twofor. Not only a woman, but a black person. Therefore, i was representing, in a sense, a black person and a female person. So my campaign in the beginning with a lot of black and women around me. That is how that got off the ground. Believe you me, it was not easy. After i made that announcement and i began to visit different parts of the country, assemble a staff and everything, hell broke loose. The reason hell broke loose is because how dare you . Have you forgotten you are a woman . Have you forgotten that you are black, and you want to be president . Bruce whos telling you these things . Rep. Chisholm a lot of the black males at the time had very negative feelings about my announcement. And a lot of the white males. It was the males, primarily, that gave me the fit. I remember so distinctly so many incidents in which they felt i was going in the wrong direction. Bruce can you think of one incident and name one name . [laughter] bruce its 20 years, you know. Rep. Chisholm i know it is, but i know in terms of the black males, it was felt. I dont want to call one name because so many of them had the same feeling. They really felt if a black person was going to make a bid for the presidency, it should not be a black woman. It should be a black male. This whole machismo thing gets in the way. Not only that. The black males were very annoyed with me because they were having this bid conference in gary, indiana. This black conference with the mayor of gary, they were coming together to find a black person to run for president. Shirley chisholm had jumped the gun. They felt like, where does she think she is going . She didnt get our approval. The fact of the matter is, i was very cognizant of the fact i would never get their approval because they would feel i needed to be placed in a straitjacket. So i went ahead on the basis of the fact there were citizens in this country who raised the money for me to make the bid. Because the citizens felt i had what it takes, i possessed leadership qualities. I had a clear understanding of the issues. I was a fearless woman and i was intelligent. That was all. The only thing that bothered a lot of folks i was black and i was a woman. Bruce how did the womens groups that existed at the time respond to your candidacy . Rep. Chisholm it was halfandhalf. Some of them responded positively and some did not. An amazing thing happened to me that shocked me for three years. That the women in the southern part of the country responded to my candidacy more sincerely and truthfully than the women in the north. I can tell you stories of how women in the south i remember the state of mississippi, where some of the local women, white women lost their jobs because of the white male power structure. Reminding them that Shirley Chisholm was a black woman. These women would respond, you know shes a black woman, but she has what it takes to bring about change. Women lost their jobs. White women lost their jobs in parts of mississippi because they would not pull back from my candidacy. In florida, when i landed in tallahassee the airport was jammed with black and white women. In the north, while i found that the northern white women were saying Shirley Chisholm and is a part of the feminist movement, she is a leader, but while they were giving me beautiful rhetoric, they were destroying my sites behindthescenes. Many of them were not truthful. Even today, many of the white women in the north of my generation, nothing younger people who dont know me people ask me about you were the first woman who happened to be black to make a serious bid for the presidency in terms of going about the country and participating. That the first woman to run for president , but the first woman who did traditionally what you must do, not talking about the other women who had run for president. They did not do what i did, it was just symbolic. I always say, yes, but i must always remind you that it was primarily the women in the south that put me across. So many women in new york, but the truth is the truth. I was surprised. I was very surprised about what happened to me in new york. You must remember i did not make a bid for the presidency on the basis of new york. I made it on the basis of the floridians and minnesotans who said, go. Bruce how did your Campaign Play out . I know you campaigned in the primaries and you did go to the convention. Take us through that process briefly. Rep. Chisholm while i was campaigning i campaigned in 20, 21 states. There were three or four basic things i met constantly. I met constantly the fact that black men and white men were very low in attendance at the rallies and the meetings where i was making appearances. That was very obvious to me. Secondly, i ran into divisions within the particular cities in which i ran because the black people and the white people, particularly the feminists, were actually having disagreements because i am a woman. The feminists felt, this is our candidate, we brought her in. We sponsored her. Then the black people of the community, of course, im black, so they felt, she is one of us. In many cases, they didnt pay to bring me in, so they were trying to jump on the bandwagon. And the white women were like, we brought her in, we can schedule her. Many times, i had to hide until they settled the disagreement. I will give you a very funny story. I remember i went into tallahassee. I will never forget this. They must have been about 60 cars to meet me. White women, black women, a few black men, a few white men. It was an exciting time. They had all their placards and everything. Then, the plane landed. I got off the plane with my two aides. The black community and the White Community rushed to meet me to put me in a waiting car to take me off to the rally. While they were taking me, while the White Community was taking me to their car, the black community says, she is the sister. I looked over and i saw this tiny white man, i dont think he was five feet tall. He was grinning and laughing. He had on his hat. Chisholm for president. I went over to him. I said, thank you so much. I said, can i get into your car and you take me to the rally . He said, i dont have i said, does it move . He said, yes. He was so excited. He got me in the car and off we went. The moment i got into the car, all of the outbursts stopped and they all jumped into their cars to follow. I would never forget that as long as i lived. Bruce how many delegate votes did you get at the convention . Rep. Chisholm i got 158 delegate votes at the convention. A majority from the south. It was amazing that mississippi if i could remember, i got about six of the 12 votes in mississippi. I got 20something louisianan votes. I got more votes from the south. Many of the persons that indicated to me, shirley, go ahead, make the run. We have to have change in america. You got to remember, dont go to the south. In retrospect, if i did not go to the south, i would have fallen completely flat on my face. Bruce did you get Primetime Television time at the podium at the convention . Rep. Chisholm yes. The ones who jumped up and screamed the loudest, that delegation was sitting in the front, George Wallaces alabamian delegation. It was crazy. George wallace, when i was campaigning, 13 others were running. Mcgovern, lindsay. A whole bunch of us. When i was campaigning even in florida, George Wallace you to tell folks, if you cannot vote for me in the primary, dont vote for those pointyheaded liberals, vote for Shirley Chisholm. People felt i had entered into a pact with George Wallace and because of that, i lost the floridian vote. I also caused john lindsay to get out of the race. He had a private meeting with me when he was returning to new york. He was mayor at the time. He told me, youre moving into my vote. He did everything to get myself to remove myself from the floridian primary. I told him, my time has come. Ive got to do this. I will never forget that. It caused a kind of our friendship was never as great as it used to be after i refused to pull out from that race in florida. I must tell the world that it was the south that really took me across. Many of my friends, many people in new york are angry with me because they want the world to feel that because i am a new yorker, that they were the ones that pushed me out. Nothing is further from the truth. Bruce what was your message to the convention . Rep. Chisholm my message for the convention basically was the time has come when we in america can no longer be complacent, passive recipients of whatever the politics of our nation may declare for us. That the time has come that we must look at other americans who have the attributes of leadership, who have knowledge of the issues to make a bid in an unequivocal manner for the presidency of the United States of america. I have decided to accept this challenge and here i am today. Bruce did you ever think you are on a short list to be George McgovernsVice President . Rep. Chisholm no, no. I never fooled myself. People must have thought, did Shirley Chisholm really think she could be present . I am fairly intelligent. Know iart enough to could not be president but someone has to be a catalyst for change. I always regarded myself as a catalyst for change. Bruce we are also 20 years in the anniversary of watergate. I wonder if during that year, you followed the news reports like everybody else, but as an inside politician sort, did you see or wonder what later came to be known as dirty tricks occurred . Rep. Chisholm yes, because i was the victim out in california. In fact, the people in california called me. Donald, he had circulated some literature. Bruce who . Rep. Chisholm he was one of the tricksters in the nixon campaign. His job was to derail the candidacies of the democrats who were running. Oh, he said some awful things about humphrey. Look what he said about Shirley Chisholm. Shirley chisholm had been released from a Mental Institution a few years ago. And it is known that she rubs feces on the walls of the rooms in her home. I thought that the paper crumbled. Bruce what device did he use to get that information out . Rep. Chisholm leaflet. Bruce how do you know it was from him . Rep. Chisholm because my friends in california sent me all the leaflets that was put out by him. At that time, he didnt say he did it. As a result of the watergate hearings, it came out that he did it. Not only negative and untruthful things said about me. It was also set about the others. The most slimy, sleazy types of remarks. My friends in california alerted me to it. Later, he apologized to all of us. Bruce personally . Rep. Chisholm not personally but by the media. ,the newspapers picked it up. Bruce do you think those tricks had any effect on your campaign . Rep. Chisholm no. Not really. Bruce what was Jesse Jackson doing at the time that you are running . What was his role in politics . Rep. Chisholm Jesse Jackson never supported me for the presidency, although i supported him in 1984 and 1988. He called on me so often to do a lot of things, but Jesse Jackson never really supported me for the president. Bruce did you ask for his support . Rep. Chisholm early in the game, back in 1972, Jesse Jackson was aligned with the black power board in gary, indiana trying to stop me. He was part of that machismo group who felt that a black woman who didnt consult the brothers has no business running for president. And i understood that. I am not holding it against him. I understood why. They are very full of machismo. Bruce why did you run for congress . We are going backwards here. We are now back to 1968. Rep. Chisholm all right. A new district was created in the borough of brooklyn giving an opportunity for the first time for the thousands of black and hispanic people that reside in brooklyn a chance to send one of their own to the u. S. House of representatives. When that came out, it was felt once again that a black man should run for the seat. A group of representatives from Community Organizations held a series of interviews, about five of us who wanted the seat. Then they vote at the hearing the five of us on the basis of the issues, where we stood, our community work, and would have you. The overwhelming majority voted for me. Although i was a woman. It drove them up the wall. The men if i survived during those years that i was moving up politically, i could survive anything. I cried many nights because i was misinterpreted. She wanted to take things away from the black man. All of these crazy stuff that was coming off the wall. I didnt let it upset me that much because i understood our history. I understood why the men would feel this way. They would feel this way because they felt like the time had come for black men, it was black mens turn and nobody could get in the way, including black women. I understood that, but it was very hurting. Many of the things they said about me. Many of the misunderstandings. Many of the misinterpretations of my actions. It gave this feeling that i was some horrible little monster. Bruce what did they say . Rep. Chisholm they said she has no right to be running for congress. If indeed a black person was running for congress, it should be a male. Bruce were there personal attacks . Rep. Chisholm not many but most of them was the male bit. Bruce you ran against james farmer. Was that in the general or primary . Rep. Chisholm that was in the general election. He was a republican. Bruce he was what at that time . Rep. Chisholm he was a republican. Bruce he had a national reputation. Rep. Chisholm congress on nation we quality. James farmer, a bright, articulate man with a beautiful voice. He was giving everyone the impression that he can mow down Shirley Chisholm. He did not live in the district. I think they looked at me and they said, a schoolteacher, what does she know . But we really had a panel truck going across the Manhattan Bridge watching him leaving , manhattan to coming to brooklyn to campaign. Why didnt he go up against adam clayton . He wanted that newly created seat in brooklyn. So, i developed three things that helped me, i think, to eventually win. Number one, he was on a resident of brooklyn. I understood he had secured a little room just for the purpose of address. Number two, he didnt realize how fluent in spanish i was. So, when we went into hispanic areas we had a large spanish area. I would speak english and then i would speak in spanish. The first time he heard me speak spanish, i see his Mouth Opening right up. He could not get over that. James got to the point where the machismo thing was so strong with black men during that time. He got to the point that every morning when the people were going to work, he had these muscular looking young black men at subway stations giving out his literature. Send a man to the house and this kind of thing going on. I began to feel badly. No, dont feel badly. Accept the challenge. I always had a feeling there were more women in the district than men. I went down to the board of elections and checked the rules. Theheck the checked roles. 2. 7 women to one man in the district. I sent out a call to the Women Leaders in the district. Black, white, italian, jews. I said, we have to go to war. That was it. We mobilized. Bruce by how much did you win . Rep. Chisholm three to one. Mobilized. Bruce then you went to washington. Tell the story of your Committee Assignment. [laughter] rep. Chisholm when i got to washington, it was understood freshman should be seen and not heard. You would accept the Committee Assignment. They placed me on an agriculture committee. Subcommittee. The more i thought about it, the more angry i became because for so many years, minority persons in brooklyn, new york never had a representative, and they will put me on a committee dealing with rural villages . The more i thought about it, this is madness. I spoke with some of the congressman and they told me what i felt. They said, you have to understand, you will get this Committee Assignment eventually but you have to take this assignment. This is what angers me. They say, you are right, but you shouldnt rock the boat. I spoke with brock adams. He was the first white congressman who befriended me and looked out for me. Bruce what is he doing now . Rep. Chisholm the secretary of transportation in the carter cabinet. I dont know what hes doing it because hes no longer in congress because of a series of misadventures that betook him. I told brock what i was going to do. I was going to put an amendment in to remove my name from the forestry and rural Villages Committee and ask for another assignment that has a little more relevancy to the district. Brock said, shirley, you can do it, but you are committing political suicide before you get started. I heard that phrase 300 times in my political life, committing political suicide. I have to do it. The word got out, Shirley Chisholm is going to challenge the speaker, the chairperson of the committee on committees. Bruce who was the speaker at the time . Rep. Chisholm oh, from massachusetts. What is his name . Bruce mccormick. John mccormick. Rep. Chisholm John Mccormick was the speaker at the time. The chairman of the committee on committees that make the assignments. The word had gotten out, it leaks out that Shirley Chisholm was going to cause a ruckus. Big thing out of nothing. So i called the speaker. I did not want to think i came to the legislature to upset the tradition. I told the speaker, mr. Speaker, i just want you to know that tomorrow by the democratic caucus, i will ask for a change of Committee Assignment because it does not make sense for me to be sitting for two years on a committee that has absolutely no relevancy. Even if they put me on the committee that dealt with hot lunch programs it might be but forestry . What foolishness is this . I said to the chair and the speaker, i forgot i was speaking to the speaker. I was so upset. I said, mr. Speaker, im going to have to do my thing that was my favorite phrase at the time. The speaker said to me, you will have to do what . Excuse me, i will have to go with what i have to do. He said do you know you will be , beaten down . He did not like it, i could tell by the tone of his voice. To make a long story short, we went. A lot of the men normally dont come to the democratic caucus. They had made a plan and that plan was Shirley Chisholm desires to be recognized in the caucus. Four or five men who had seniority would raise their hand and the speaker would, and after a while, Shirley Chisholm would get tired of jumping up and down. They didnt know me. I found myself going up and down. I knew they would see me because im highly visible. I decided to do one thing. Im so mad, i had some notes. I put the notes on my seat. I walk down without the speaker calling me. The men, anything is a diversionary tactic, they all are hitting the gavel. The funniest thing happened. After i got down to the floor of the house, i suddenly became frightened. What am i going to do . The speaker i didnt know the speaker could hop off the dias so quickly. He ran over and put their heads together. Whatever it was, the speaker came back and recognized wilbur mills. Im standing right there in the middle of the house and wilbur mills saying for what purpose does the gentlewoman from the county of the borough of brooklyn in new york stand in the middle of the house . [laughter] i thought when he did that, by using those tones, that i would run out of the house. I say, as calm as i knew how to, mr. Chairman, for the past 35 minutes, i have been attempting to gain recognition. Im a highly visible person in this house of representatives. For whatever your reasons may be, mr. Speaker has not recognized me. I thought the best thing to do was to come to the front of the house because ive something very important to say. He said, the gentlewoman from the borough of brooklyn, empire state of new york will have five minutes. I say it seems like all of you i want you to know that i am asking, i am putting in an amendment to ask for a different assignment. A Committee Assignment that has a little more relevancy to the district i represent, not a subcommittee on forest thing and rural village and greeted no one had ever done this in the house. I was a bad child. You know something . They went back and gave me a committee that had more relevancy. I was placed on the veteran affairs committee. More veterans in the district then trees. After i did that they later told me that they wanted to make sure they could keep me quiet and headed before i started blossoming in the house. They were shocked when i told them i knew thats what you were all were trying to do but now you know the kind of person i am. Bruce who is your closest leadership ally in the house in those days . Who did you look to . Did you have a mentor or did you even need one . Rep. Chisholm no, i didnt have a mentor. Even though the gentleman whats funny about the house of representatives in those days, the democrats, they admire me and like my spunkiness and feisty spirit but they were afraid to be closely aligned with me because the speaker did not look at me to kindly because i was rebellious in terms of not accepting assignments that didnt make sense. Because of the system going to the airshows in all of this i was one day walking down the hall, lets get together a list of the people who will go to the great air show. Bruce the paris . Rep. Chisholm all of a sudden, both of them they didnt want the speaker to really feel they were that close to me. It was a strange thing because those guys live on the basis of you can imagine, i was in the house, i didnt go on junctions because i would not behave myself. Tip oneill, they used to always tell me, dont know what to do with you. One time they asked me dont you want to go to the airship . I told them straight, if i want to go to the air show i can pay my fare. I didnt realize until later, some 16, 18 years later how progressive i was. Why the gentleman and the people in politics looked at me the way they did because i did think you were not supposed to do. In the process of doing them, i opened up new approaches. I paid for it in terms of not getting all the nice perks. That didnt bother me. Bruce why did you quit . Rep. Chisholm because from the very inception of my political career, when i was in the new york state legislature, i still have it at home, i said from the inception of my political career, never do i intend to spend all of my creative and productive years in the political arena. Never intended to be dragged out in an oxygen tank or actually dying. I also want some blue my leaving was that the Reagan Administration had come in. I saw so many things that we had done during the Civil Rights Movement and what have you beginning to fade away before my eyes and my face. I also saw the people back in my own district were taking it out on me because i could no longer deliver like i used to be able to deliver under the Carter Administration and what have you. I decided this was the moment for me to leave and go out and do other things because of the fact i knew from the inception of my not spending my adult life and politics. Bruce what did you do . Rep. Chisholm i became a professor. I love the young people. I spent a lot of time. I do a lot of speechwriting for politicians. It would be surprised some of them i do speechwriting four. For. Bruce are you going to tell us . Rep. Chisholm no. Bruce never mind. I want to ask you a few more things about congress. What would you change about congress to make it more effective . Rep. Chisholm i would change i do not think that the congress of the United States is representative of the populations that make up this country. This country is a multifaceted, multiracial, multiethnic land. Bruce how would you change it constitutionally . Rep. Chisholm i am not talking about changing the constitution. I am talking about what is happening now. More women getting out there and running and winning. More hispanic and africanamericans accepting the challenge. It does not mean you will necessarily win but you have to have the guts and courage and your conviction to help bring about change through your own actions, not through rhetoric. Bruce isnt that happening now . Rep. Chisholm its happening now. Its a wonderful thing. Im so glad 20 years later i have lived to see whats really happening. For the year 1992, the impetus of making women feel like they had to out there all these white males making determinations about an issue that affects women. I think that was the turning point for this year. Women said the heck with this, we have to get out there and start running. Whether or not we win, we have to accept the challenge. Bruce had you been on the Senate Judiciary committee, what do you think would have happened . Rep. Chisholm i probably would not be able to get to vote. I certainly would have spoken about the way in which they were questioning ms. Hill. I did not like it for one moment. I saw orrin hatch and this other guy from wyoming particularly those two. The prosecutorial tone. Well, its a good thing i was not on the committee because they would probably have someone take me out. Bruce you watched all that . Rep. Chisholm yes, i couldnt take my eyes off the screen to eat a meal. It was a fairy story that was happening. It was not because they felt like they did what they had to do because politics is so darn partisan. The democrats had made their minds up that they had to make sure he didnt get on the bench. Politics being what it is, everyone engages in all kinds of tricks. But it was not what they were doing, it was how they were doing it and what they were doing to that woman. It meant something to me. Bruce bruce one of the Big Questions is do you believe him or her . Rep. Chisholm its hard because neither one of us were there. Bruce do you have a feeling in your gut . Rep. Chisholm i have a feeling that there was something on both sides of that issue. I wont choose to go into that. There was something on both sides of that issue. It didnt have anything to do with politics. Bruce how do you think black leadership would have evolved had Martin Luther king remained alive . Rep. Chisholm i think if nothing else, Martin Luther king was the one black leader in this country, and this era that have the uncanny ability and skills and articulation to issue a call to bring the black leaders together. The majority of black leaders together. Theres no one today that can really bring all of the black leaders together. Whether they are conservative oriented leaders, progressive or what have you. Martin luther would have outlined for us where we ought to be going. Does not necessarily mean we would have accepted it, but he commanded the respect. He had the integrity and the principles which a lot of leaders dont have today. Theres not the integrity. Theres not the principles. Theres a lot of political expediency that goes on. It does not emanate from the heart. What you can get out of it. I think had Martin Luther king been alive today, that we may not have found ourselves in a kind of position in which there doesnt seem any longer to be any unanimity of purpose amongst the black people pertaining to an agenda for the future of our people. Bruce how much longer do you think race will be a central issue in American Public affairs . Rep. Chisholm it will always be a central issue. Racism in this country, it was founded on racism. It is the bugaboo of america. It is what renders america so vulnerable within attacks of its opponents within the country and out of the country. The document of this land was written, black folks were only counted as 3 5 of a person. This country was born and bred in racism. I dont really believe we will ever really eradicate racism in america. I must say honestly, there have been improvements through the years. God help us if we havent had any, but there have been improvements. At this point in time, i feel like we are back in the 1960s as i travel throughout the country. I see what is happening. Sometimes i think we are back in the 1950s because there has been an erosion of so many of the gains that we made. I dont think we could ever get rid of racism in america. Im sorry to say, but my gut tells me that. I hope i am wrong. Bruce have you ever thought of yourself as a victim . Rep. Chisholm of racism . Bruce i have used the word victim because as you know, theres a lot of discussion about the victim mentality of minorities. Not necessarily blacks. That there is the criticism that the black leadership encourages the sense of victimization because that provides a rationale for seeking help from the government. I wonder if you accept that or is there another way to go . Rep. Chisholm i dont see it that way at all. I have to put it in this kind of perspective. The fact that whatever these leaders have been able to utilize that has worked in some ways and has resounded to the benefit of africanAmerican People, and it was successful, they feel that this is the way they should always go. They are not very experimental. They are not very creative in terms of looking at new ways of doing things. Not only black and white leaders, but you always become a little bit satisfied and complacent if you found something that has worked, even if its no longer appropriate for the times in which we are living. I think its more a kind of frailty of human nature that does this kind of thing. Thats what even today, everybodys kind of upset and worried about the fact that, for example, ross perot is out here. Who is he . Hes not a democrat, not a republican, yet everybody is falling behind him. You are going away from tradition. Ross in his own strange way is being creative, if i could say that. Everybodys focusing on ross, instead of focusing on the agenda that will make American People who have become alienated and cynical about the traditional ways of doing things return. They are too busy focusing on mr. Perot, instead of correcting the equities and grievances the American People have been indicating for quite some time. This year in my humble opinion is going to be a bloodless, mini political revolution. I see it coming. It is good to be some convention both at the Republican Party convention and the Democratic Party convention. Bruce why that, if thats so, why do you think the Republican Convention will be something other than a renomination of the president and Vice President . Rep. Chisholm i think thats surprisingly enough, a large number of republican women some of my best friends are republicans a large number of republican women are going to the convention, saying they will not take this antiabortion issue that is the word they use anymore. I can see the Republican Convention a kind of outburst around that whole abortion issue. Thats how i see it at the Republican Convention. It will come that way. At the democratic convention, when you know that in the city of new york, there has already been an indicator that you will have all kinds of delegations out in the streets. They have to make sure to have a way to keep them away. Youre going to have the proabortion, prochoice, the homeless have been building their own tent out there. Youre going to have the Gay Community saying neither republicans were the democrats are paying attention to our issues. Because new york is a very overt, outspoken place where anything and everything goes, i see and i also hope that convention does not come about like the one in 1968 in chicago, where you had all these different groups out there rebelling and all the people in america could see on the screen. Im very concerned. Bruce with the time remaining, he retired from politics in 1982. You went into teaching. What have you been teaching . Rep. Chisholm my have been teaching i have been teaching the role of women in america. I have been teaching the history of black women in america. Ive been teaching congress. Power, politics. And my classes are very unusual in that i dont get up before the class and pontificate. I conduct the class in terms of my experiences. Give them some basic premises pertaining to all three of these areas, and then theres a constant dialogue going on between myself and the students. And, many of the supervisors and persons in Higher Education who have witnessed my classes have made me feel very proud. Your classes are the most alive classes i have ever seen. Wherever i go, the students and professors asked me to come back. I have not come back to many of them because i want to visit as many universities as i can. As i speak to you, i have been in over 225 universities and colleges of this country for the past 25 years of my life. Its given to me the greatest kinds of experiences. I love young people. I dont see that we spend enough time with them. At this stage in my life, i consider myself a states woman. I considered myself a mentor. And i consider myself a person who is had the opportunity to be able to pass on to the next generation the benefit, whatever benefit they could get out of the experiences i have had in this country. Bruce how do you explain all the surveys that show Voter Participation of young people way down and even interest way down . Rep. Chisholm theres a reason for you because they have been listening to all this rhetoric. They have been listening to the fact the peace dividend will come back to the people of this country and they wouldnt have to worry about completing the Fouryear College education. They are frightened to death as to whether or not they will able to complete their education if they are already in college or they will have the opportunity to go to college with tuition rates so high. There have been parents and grandparents talk about afghan, korea gate, iran contra. They are so cynical, like a lot of the adults. Bruce your own students who you say are rather engaged and intellectually alive, do you think they go out of your classroom to vote and become active citizens . Rep. Chisholm a lot of them do. But its amazing that they refuse this is very interesting to me. A disproportionate number of them do not register as democrat or republican. They register as independent. When i talk with them in private conversations, theres some basic premises in a democratic philosophy politically in america and republican philosophy politically. We are not interested, mrs. Chisholm, in a Party Philosophy necessary. We want to look at the person and the persons pattern of behavior. It will indicate to us they are not hung up on traditional parties like we older folk are. They are not as hung up. Bruce how old are you . Rep. Chisholm im 67 years of age. Bruce how old do you feel . Rep. Chisholm i feel 37. Bruce what are your plans for the future . Rep. Chisholm i live my life now one day at a time. I have no specific plans. Since my husband passed away five years ago, people came back to me and said shirley, we need that righteous voice of indignation out there. Come back and let your voice be heard. My time has passed. I would rather train and mentor and help younger blacks and women coming along. Perfectly content with the life i am leading at this point. Bruce it is probably early for me to ask this of a 37yearold woman. [laughter] what would you like what that makes me older than you. What would you like for your epitaph . Rep. Chisholm its too soon to ask me. I dont want to be necessarily known as the first africanamerican woman to be elected to congress or the first female who happened to be africanamerican to be elected. I would rather like to be my epitaph to read, Shirley Chisholm a catalyst for change in the 20th century who happened to be an africanamerican female. I want to be known as a catalyst for change because that is how i regard myself. Bruce Shirley Chisholm, thank you very much. Rep. Chisholm certainly. Thank you. Films can watch archival in their entirety on our series railamerica saturday at 10 00 p. M. And sunday at 4 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv. If you like American History tv, keep up with us during the week on facebook, twitter and youtube. Learn about what happened this a previewtory and see of upcoming programs. The cspan cities tour travels the country, exploring the american story. Since 2011, we have been to more across the nation. Like many americans, our staff is staying close to home during the coronavirus. A look at one of our city tour visits. We are on the campus of North Carolina at chapel hill. This is the First State University in the country. They were chartered first