Transcripts For CSPAN3 U.S. Domestic Politics Treaty Of Versailles 20240712

He graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor degree from university of oklahoma and phd. He served aaz political scientist, political economist and author, teaching assistant to former u. S. Secretary of state madilyn albright, who was here for a private dinner earlier this year, just to drop a name or two to impress you. Gary joined the William Jewell College Faculty in 1992 and serves as the political chair of Political Science and director of the International Relations major. The William Jewell student body has voted him professor of the year an amazing four times. Hes a long time supporter of the National World war i museum and memorial. Were very appreciative. Please give a warm welcome to dr. Gary armstrong. Good evening, and thank you for coming tonight. It should be a lot of interesting questions. On the 100th anniversary of the senates first rejection of the versailles peace treaty. What a moment to talk about americas place in the world. It was a time of growing polarization and radicalization. There had been a series of race riots, and the current estimate is that between probably the summer of 19 and the summer of 21 about a thousand americans were killed. They would get the worst in tulsas race riots which led, i think, to the first bombing of an American City by our own air force. At the same time, there were just two weeks before the senate would take its vote, a series of bombings that led to something called the red scare. Its entirely wrongly named. The people who did the bombings were anarchists. But attorney general palmer, whose own house was bombed in one of those raids, launched a series of very vigorous raids to arrest to detain about 10,000 and to arrest about 3,000 anarchists, about 550 were deported. Its a time when we have race riot riots, we have radicals, with very the government using force. Its also a time, lest we forget, when americans were intensely polarized at the political level as well. On the day that Woodrow Wilson appeared to ask the u. S. Congress for a declaration of war in april 1917, his famous speech had to be postponed. A very important matter had to be settled first, which was who was going to have the speakership of the u. S. House of representatives . In the 1916 elections, which Woodrow Wilson had barely won at the president ial level, they are still some of the most closely fought in all of American History. Look what had happened in the United States house of representatives. You had a virtual tie. And there were hours of political if political fin angling over who was going to get the political joy. This is the time the Largest Party did not get the speakership. The republicans had more seats than the democrats, but they did fiat had get the speakership. This was the last time in history the speakership was given because the democrats formed a small alliance with small parties. And whats really interesting is that then the house turned to the question of the president s speech and the declaration of war and a lot of very interesting members of congress voted no on the declaration of war, including the first woman to sit in the u. S. House of representatives, jeanette rankine, who would also, by the way, vote against war after the japanese attack on pearl harbor. Shes a life long passivist and could not violate her principles even after the United States got attacked. Also the man who just got the speaker of the house of representatives broke with the president , the director of his party, and refused to vote for the declaration of war. This is a time when Great Questions are at stake, people are intensely divided, and politics is going to start impacting Foreign Policy. Oh, by the way, its also a great time because just as were getting ready to start debating how to end world war i, a gigantic pandemic breaks out. Today the cdc estimates that about 675,000 americans lost their lives in the great influenza of 19181919. Influenf 1918 1919. Notice that kansas city had about 2300 dead by the way thats a significantly larger than st. Louis whos better organized and better organized idea linguists influenza. And the month of october 1918 195 000 americans died of the flu. Remember 50 000 died of wounds during world war i. And at about the time that the senates going to move into the most intense question about what should we do regarding the league of nations we have the most serious medical crisis of the history of the american presidency. Woodrow wilson has a massive stroke on october the 2nd, he has been on a gigantic nationwide tore towards the end of that tour in pueblo, colorado they realize there was something wrong with the president. They cleared the Railroad Line they got him back as fast as they could to washington. Hed been in washington just briefly when he had a massive stroke for six weeks his wife maintained a charade that there was nothing wrong with the president. No one was permitted to see the president for six weeks, except the first lady his physician and a handful of trusted aides. His own press secretary the essential Joseph Tumulty was not allowed to see the president , whats really interesting is that a lot of specialists now believe, and this mrs. Wilson made a terrible mistake. She isolated the president when what he probably needed the most for his long term recovery was consistent interaction with people. That has led to a big argument that were going to see later, that the president s catastrophic stroke led to a increasing rigidity in his personality that will lead him to make fundamental errors during the debate over the versailles peace treaty. Are we talking played, war, stroke. I mean god bless us we are so close to the four horsemen of the apocalypse, we were trying to figure americas role in the world. The versailles peace treaty debate, it is the first time a president of the nine states proposed sweeping reforms to the fundamental basis of International Relations. Its the first time an american president goes abroad for diplomatic negotiations. President wilson will be a broad for basically seven months, there are people who challenge this they dont even believe he has the constitutional right to leave the territory of the United States. This is going to be the moment where we have the First Permanent World Organization with something called collective security authority. Thats going to be the heart of the fight that were going to be exploring in just a minute. This is going to be the first time that the United States will consider a treaty that technically, formerly requires it to end its historical isolation. By isolation i mean the definition abuse and Political Science, a reluctance or an avoidance of military commitments to europe. So you could be in favor of sending missionaries to china that doesnt make an isolationist. In 1900 you could have been in favor of annexing the philippines, that would make unit an imperialist. But opposed to making any security commitments to europe, which could make you simultaneously an imperialist and a isolationist. This will be the first time in the history of the body that the senate will invoke closure to stop the filibuster so that they can actually get the business of boating done. This will be the first time that the United States will reject its senate its senate will reject a peace treaty. And this is how it starts, president wilson landed back in the United States on about july 8th 1919 from his long time in europe. He goes to new york and then he goes to washington d. C. He carries the bound enormous copy of the treaty, into the senate. In fact hes met by Henry Cabot Lodge if he would like help carrying that treaty, and wilsons laughs. Then wilson gives this speech, the stage is set the destiny disclose it has come about by no plan of our conceiving, but by the hand of god who has led us into his way. We cannot turn back we can only go forward, with lifted eyes and fresh and spirits, to follow the vision. It was on this that we dreamed at our birth, america shall show the way, the light streams across the path ahead and nowhere else. There we rejected and break the heart of the world. This from the most accomplished rhetoric than ever to ever become president of the United States. And his speech was a dud. It was too high it was to flowery, but whats really interesting youre going to see some more here in the New York Times front page cover of the president s speech. They get the basics of the speech, but you start to see down here here are some very interesting opening that are already being waged. The new majority leader in senate is saying Henry Cabot Lodge we have a right to amend this treaty, and we might have to approved by two thirds vote but we can amended by majority vote. We republicans are now the majority because of the elections of 1918. You also see that the president greets callers, in the special room set aside for the president of the United States at the capitol, 30 democrats. Which see the president , one republican. It was the first signed that very serious trouble was brewing on the fate of the treaty. Now to skip ahead, here are the votes. So 100 years ago tonight, and they closed at about 11 pm washington d. C. Time. So i think we should all state so we can go for the full 100th. Our laughs the vote for a senate of reservation by Henry Cabot Lodge 41 yes 51 no. Two thirds requirement for that number votes was 61. Then the vote for the treaty, with no reservations as president wilson has proposed, 38 yes, 55 know it was not even close. Then in march of 20, after four months they have another debate and another vote, this time the votes go up in part, because 12 senators are absent. So this time the votes are 49 years, 35 know the requirement passing of the treaty is 56, so it has failed by seven votes. Then they have the special thing where those who are absent, although they could not vote they could announce what the position would have been, and thats how you wind up with this. 57 announced that had theyve been there they would have voted yes, or they did vote yes. 39 said that that had theyve been there they wouldve voted no. Thats the highest that the senate every time, the closer the senate is to passing the versailles peace treaty. A lot of people think this is the problem, there were a group inside the senate called the irreconcilables they said you couldnt drag us to vote for this treaty with all the horses of the american cavalry. We will not do this, now theres a lot of discussion about how many were there. Im going to be using an estimate that you can see in a couple of different books, normally youre going to get about 15 to 18. So im going to list the 18, and then include all kinds of fascinating senators, theres fighting bob la follette theres president Theodore Roosevelt attorney general, and William Howard tap secretary of state who was an irreconcilable, there was no way he was going to vote for the treaty. There is a new senator from illinois, mccormick. Now a lot of people say thats what happened. These people somehow managed to defeat the treaty, thats the story and thats not the story at all. One of those irreconcilables is a complicated character hes our very own senator james reed from kansas city. Senator james reed had been in the senate would be in the senate for 18 years. Hed been the mayor of kansas city to 1900 and 1904, they rebuilt it through restorations. He made very clear he was a irreconcilable and will not vote for this treaty because he was a isolationist. But theres Something Else, he was a racist, and he was very direct he was afraid that the league of nations favored the treaty, he takes a look at religious organizations which are incredibly important 100 years ago, and its overwhelming support from protestants including baptist to catholics to jews, later was very in favor of the treaty although they had some very strong reservations about one component of the treaty. Civic groups like the rotarians and the new American Legion came out in favor of the treaty, and the joint league of nations. 17 state legislators passed resolutions including the legislature of filibuster california and massachusetts. With happened to be the homes of the most two important components of the treaty. And, the most important brand new single issue at this organization in the United States was something called the lead to enforce peace. It had thousands of members all across the country, they had 100,000 dollar budget to advocate for the treaty, it was led by the former president William Howard taft. This treaty had the Popular Support could be approved. By the way, there were some really interesting intellectuals who were trying to make fundamental decisions about this. So there is the great jane addams of chicago, and theres web du bois both of them very disappointed for their previous support of Woodrow Wilson. Adams because the president had not been a vigorous supporter of the constitutional amendment to give women the vote. By the way he had supported in franchising women, but he had not supported doing it through a constitutional amendment. And then web du bois who was furious at the president s inability to articulate publicly a strong opposition to lynching. Or do you articulate why we needed to stop the race riots. Whats interesting, both of them fought thought things over and decided never the less would support Woodrow Wilson and the lead. This is Walter Lippmann by the 19 sixties and seventies i am told, i have read that there is hardly any serious question of the day that serious americans didnt wait Walter Lippmann and see what theyre going to think about it. He was a young advisor to Woodrow Wilson, and then he broke with rudy drawer wilson for the new republic. The new republic in the summer of 1919 published a major attack on the versailles priest chilly in the league of nations turn the new republic canceled or scripts corruption angered at the attack on the president and his lead. By the way, Walter Lippmann would say 15 years later this is one of the biggest mistakes in my life, if i could do things over again i would have continued to support Woodrow Wilson and the lead. So not only is or strong public support, theres really interesting stuff going on among keel american inch oil actuals who are aggravated with the president s, but deciding overall the possibility of progressive reform and International Governance is still worth it to try and get into the lead. But here is the last thing you need to know, before we get into important points. I think using a stoplight approach that we can get a glimpse of what the balance in the senate was, about this treaty and youre going to start to suspect something quickly. This is a tragedy, if we take the green and the yellow then we can see that three quarters of the senate was willing to join the league and passed the treaty. The opponents were small they were vigorous they were energetic they were vociferous, but they didnt have the votes to stop this treaty the whole question of whether this treaty would go was could the green and the yellow get together. Now what i want to do for the next little bit, is explain why they didnt. Our antagonist these are impressive leaders. Woodrow wilson, the only peach ph. D. In Political Science to become president of the United States. He will probably be the only president who has a ph. D. In Political Science, notice that he had quite a reputation, he had been a very important reformer in princeton university. Where for example although he was a convinced christian precip therrien, he had that the formal secularization of princeton. He had ended the chaotic elective system of undergraduate general education. He said if were going to have a democracy, we need to have people who know some stuff. He had abolish what they then called the eating clubs, which we would now call fraternities as incompatible with the new equality of american democracy. Hes doing a lot, but i think the most important thing to know about Woodrow Wilson is the date of his birth and the place of his birth. Hed been born in virginia, and he was raised by a precip therrien posture father in south carolina. He says that his earliest memory was of men running down the street lincoln had been elected and there would be warm. His fathers hospital was used as an infirmary, as a p. O. W. Station and eventually as one of the headquarters for the regional federal army of occupation in the south. Woodrow wilson is the only president in the history of the United States to know personally what total defeat looks like. The humiliation the stain of it how it can corrupt the society out of his anger and humiliation, its going to have a big impact on how he thinks about how to and world war i. This is Theodore Roosevelt, if i asked my students what do you remember about theodore rear of something about big stake. The other thing we should remember about Theodore Roosevelt, hed been that weekly scrawny boy whose father did not know he was going to survive asthma. And he told his son you must eventually remake your body or it will kill you. He became effectively a bodybuilder, he had a chest of 52 inches. Now whats really interesting is that of course he did that, the great crews are the great white fleet. The symbolic declaration that the United States would become a world power, thats under this guy. Because both of these guys wilson and roosevelt are trying to figure out what probably the leaders of china are trying to figure out. Given that we are now the most important economic power on the pylon it, should our Foreign Policy change to match our new economic heft. And theyre going to be debating how to deal with it, because of his role and ending the rousseau japanese war, he is the first for an american to win the nobel peace pies. The second would be Woodrow Wilson. And this is Henry Cabot Lodge Woodrow Wilson got one of the first newfangled imported degrees, called the phds. We were importing them from germany, where american academics were in love with all things germany, at the turn of the previous century. But Henry Cabot Lodge one one us if not the first ph. D. In history, from harvard university. His ph. D. Was on teutonic line holding land hold owning history. Like will sing and like roosevelt he could read german. Can you imagine, president s being able to learn foreign languages. He has a long increasingly articulated view of americas place in the world, whats also very interesting, he hates Woodrow Wilson. Its going to get personal, that might fly at princeton and that will not fly at harvard. Its going to come right back to the president of the United States. So how do they start fighting, i want to tell one story about the debate of the United States that no one remembers. How to end world war i with imperial germany. This is going to be the most energetic ferocious assault on the prerogatives of the president to lead an american Foreign Policy in the history of our republic. Were going to have, a president who says at the end of wwi im in favor by ending this war by an armistice. Were going to have two Republican Leaders who go to the American People and say, the president is wrong and we have elections in four weeks. If you will go vote republican, we will force the president of the United States to adopt unconditional surrender, as the policy to end wwi in the world. Of course the story begins in part, with the president s famous speech called the 14 point speech, now theres a lot of background to this. In part because theres a gigantic crisis among the allies, because the bolsheviks have opened the sars secret Foreign Ministry archive. And there they have found secret treaties that promise this or that the other thing. If they helped germany defeat the war. It convinces people all over western europe simply for imperialism colonialism and that crisis imperialism Woodrow Wilson gives this speech. Which is an electrifying jolt of idealistic energy to remind people that the war does not have to be for the old agenda. Probably important for us, that i want you to notice. I want you to notice the first points now you know why he saying that. Notice the second point, freedom of the season. Now i want you to imagine that youre a british analyst at the british Foreign Ministry. Britain lives or dies by sea power, and the capacity to impose blockades. They wanted to know, what exactly was the president meaning in point to. They did look at 0. 5, adjustments of Colonial Claims with references to the now you can imagine in both the colonial offices of france and britain, they were staying up late at night saying what in the world and is the president of the United States talking about. Then you go through a whole bunch of interesting points, and then you get to 0. 14. The british and french figured out very quickly what was going on here. The president was making his play to displace the european system of International Relations. To say to britain and france, and the old way of european imperialism, including colonialism. That the day has come and it is passed, a new american supportive world order will be profoundly different than the one you have stood for. That is why by the way technically, the United States in wwi was never an ally of power. Woodrow wilson always insisted that we formally be called a associated power, because he did not want to endorse the oldfashioned war and diplomacy of the imperialist and colonizers. Well, okay so whats the situation. In october, october 5th 1918, realizing he was losing the war, imperial germany appealed to Woodrow Wilson and Woodrow Wilson only to end the war. Britain and france were thoroughly aggrieved. Germany also said by the way, where appealing to you Woodrow Wilson because we read your 14 ford point speech which they had not. They got it with sound a soft way to end the world, whatever better than they what on the basis of your 14 point speech to end this war. And i want you to see, by the way the key point about this, if youre thinking in world war ii terms, i need to see this map. This is how territorial situation looked win the war actually ended, there are no allied soldiers on german territory. This is not like world war ii at all, and the germans have control of enormous swaths of part of the old russian empire. In fact the germans are telling themselves, we may be losing here but we won their. Okay, when they appeal, whats really interesting is that everybody in the United States, and in person in fat france expect the president to reject their appeal. And he stuns everyone instead of rejecting their appeal he asked them a question. What he asked is really important he says i need to know if you really accepted the 14 points, do you understand that if we end this war were going to end it in a way that it cannot be resume. And number three i want to ask you a question, who does your German Government speak for. Does it speak for the old classes, the Imperial Party who fled this war. Or do you speak for the people . What happened was, three weeks of note exchange. And by the way if you didnt know this, its all public. All of these are sent in the radios, papers all over the world are getting these on your front page. You can look at your hometown newspaper front page of the kansas star, im using New York Times, all of these notes are here. Then notice, on october the 12th the german reply and they say, okay were accepting the 14 points and we want you to know that we agree that we will evacuate i mean french and belgium territory, and we want you to know that our new government speaks for the german people. At that point everyone says, wilsons going to call it off no. And he stunts everybody by replying again, he says ok i want you to know that will make peace only with our supremacy, we cant even stop these uboat wars because their two ships that were sunk with 800 people dead. They said if youre serious about this stuff knock it off. And he said by the way, have you ever read a speech that i gave at mount vergne in this year about how this war will not end until every over other powers overturned. Germany says a couple of days later, okay will stop the eu boats. And we want you to know that weve changed our constitution, before now the chancellor was hired and fired only by the emperor. We have now made the chancellor responsible to the parliament. You see what the germans are doing. Theyre doing one of the most complicated strategies to end the war that ive ever heard of. First, reach out to what you think is your softest opponent, second start a democratizing revolution that you hope will not get out of control, in order to win favor with the liberal leader of that softer power. Then october 23rd, wilson replies he says ok now talk to the allies about giving you an armistice, but i want to make it really clear about a key point. If we will have to deal with the military autocrats of germany who started and continue this war, now were in the future, then we cannot discuss any negotiations i want your surrender. What in the world, all the way through this theres two people who are volcanic in their anger at the president. They are Theodore Roosevelt, ex president who won the nobel peace prize, and senator Henry Cabot Lodge. What are the angry about . Lodge says to the senate in the opening debate about the president s knows diplomacy, if we stop the war now weve lost it. Large says, if we do not defeat the german army on german soil in front of the german people, they will never admitted. And we will have to fight a war like this again in 20 years. Theodore roosevelt said a premature piece before the issues are really settled means and of the war in 12 years. Theodore roosevelt also says i dont agree with this does democracy talk. I have admire german progressivism, but its time for us to say honestly the german people have been debauched and corrupted by imperialism. They have supported the German Government all the way through this war, therefore, it doesnt make sense to hope that if the german people takeover germany were going to get a peaceful germany. I favor bringing this were all the way through to its brutal and, just like lincoln decided in 1865. And then both Theodore Roosevelt and Henry Cabot Lodge turn out to tsai something thats absolutely crucial. The future of peace will depend on whether or not the United States has a Strong Alliance with france and britain. Not international law, not democracy, whether or not there will be peace depends on the balance of power in americas commitment to them. Now, there is what Woodrow Wilson is thinking, hed given his famous speech a year and a half before a couple months before United States entered the war, where that kid who had gone through the defeated south was remembering something. The only way to get to peace is to have a peace without victory. If we have full complete military victory it will mean a feat apiece forced upon the losers, accepted humiliation underdressed. You see where this is coming from. A few weeks later, he asked the American Congress to declare war, to make the world safe for democracy. And Theodore Roosevelt said i told you, this man does not know what hes talking about. How the world can he give a speech like that, where he doesnt see any moral issue involved in trying to stop germany and its outrage. And then a few weeks later give a speech calling for war and democracy Woodrow Wilson has the phenomenal at the level of moral principle any policy preference he is not a serious person. He is in fact a direct danger to the stability of american politics. What was wilson doing. Okay this is a complicated topic, but i think Woodrow Wilson had an idea that you cant fight and speeches. I think you can find it when you look consistently at his actions Woodrow Wilson believe that they were to germanys, one germany led by the kaiser one led by the urban educated socialist leading german people. We could live with one, we cannot accept the other. Therefore, what he wanted to do was to defeat but not crushed germany. He wanted to educate pro socialist germany, eventually to rise, without going bolsheviks. Because the defeat was too serious, he wanted to precipitate internal reform, but he did not want revolution inside germany. In fact heres a series of confrontations with american senators, who are saying you have to go all the way. Hes looking at them saying set senator would you rather the kaiser the bolsheviks. Now thats a revealing comment. And then, i think that theres something going on here. He wants to make the British Empire and france dependent upon the United States so that he can then compel them to accept americas view of what the peace should be. Like heres the key point, i think that there is a connection between point to and point for. Woodrow wilson regularly not knowing anything about the balance of power, heres what i think hes thinking. If germany is crushed, britain and france will realize they dont need me, i therefore need a germany that is not crushed. That still has sufficient latent and long term power, britain and france must realize they have to depend on the United States. And if they do that then ive gotten. And i can force them into a more liberal, more progressive, more globalism version of International Relations. This guy can be subtle. Lodge frequently was not. He was a really complicated guy but he said no every so often politics comes out sometimes. And were more likely to have real peace if we insist on a real victory, like defeating napoleon like defeating the confederacy or skip ahead like 1945 in germany or japan were complete military defeat made completely reorientation and longterm peace possible. Okay, what happens Woodrow Wilson loses the election. , Woodrow Wilson party the democrats lose the senate and the house, and therefore Woodrow Wilson in 1918, and the most important elections that nobody in america remembers, became the only commander and chief in wartime to lose control of the congress. Oh until george bush in 2006. And the new republican majority leader, who is also going to therefore take the chairman ship of the senate committee, is oh my gosh. There are a couple really interesting defeats, this is senator lewis senator lewis is the first majority rip and the majority of the yunus senate. He had serve survived in 1918 anna torpedoing of the ship he was on. At the beginning of the diplomacy debate, he introduced a resolution and and he was defeated. Heres another guy who got defeated, this is shackle furred. A really important guy from a really important college hes a second longest hes an alumni of my college hes very important although we dont remember this because he was the guy who got the bill to start federal aid from highway construction the United States. Which eventually will be to our federal highway system. He had served in congress for nine terms, but he got buried and election of 1918. In fact, the Democratic Party in boone county here in the state of missouri, refused to renominate him. Why was he defeated . He had oppose preparedness, he said we dont need to build an army theres no way the germans can get across the ocean. We do not need all the stuff. He had voted for the resolution that urged americans not to get on ships that could be getting going into uboat torpedo zones. And he had voted against the declaration of war, and in the summer of 1918 the voters in his district of missouri had had enough and they threw him out. Now why is that important . Because there is a really interesting, little sign no. Ive always kind of wondered, have you wondered fighting to make the world a safe democracy. Is that something that intellectuals talked about after president wilson speech. Heres the best evidence that it is more serious than that. A few years ago work mens removed a brass plaque on the west face of that Historic Building on my campus. He said armstrong you have to come see this youre not going to believe what was behind, it when we got a brass plaque off there was this marble thing, on our jewel hauled it says. Dedicated to the members of this class who are fighting to make the world safer democracy democracy. Present tense fighting, the class of 1918. That is evidence that the president s idea caught fire, even in my little college, even our little part of missouri there were big ideas at stake, and the ideas of isolationism are now in trouble. Why is this important, theres an argument that everything i just said is wrong. Probably the most famous argument for what led to the wilson defeat of the elections of 1918. Has nothing to do with the war. The administration had made is gigantic mistake and control the price of cotton, they made sure Cotton Growers in the south got very strong profits to grow more cotton. But they had not control the price of wheat, and the price of wheat had gone back and forth. Government urged wheat farmers to plant large amount to feed the army but then it collapsed. And what you got this argument, people who didnt care about the war what they were angry about was the price of wheat. And while you see in districts that had low wheat, medium wheat and high wheat, oh we see the more we thats grown in the district, the more likely it is that it went republican. In other words, this has nothing to do with the war it has to do with domestic policy and economics. Im not sure thats true, because theres Something Else going on in the summer of 1918. There was a new group called the National Security leave, that is something that nobody had ever thought of before. They put out guides to how congressman had voted what they did is they looked at a votes. Then they ranked whether or not the congressman had wrote it wrong or right in total favor the war. Then they started publishing them in newspaper after newspaper after newspaper, and the white house started getting telegrams and phone calls. Oh my god, we are in trouble. Because what started to happen was that once the elections came through, the hire people were on the National Security leak, the more likely they were to be defeated. In other words, heres pretty interesting evidence that the war mattered in addition to wheat. They are fighting lee crazy even before we get to the treaty. Now what happens at the treaty fight . Woodrow wilson has three ideas to reform International Relations. The first idea its called collective security. That is a special word and Political Science. What it means is a commitment by every government in the world to resist aggression even when they have no vital interest at stake. Maybe a attacks mozambique thailand invades burma. Mexico declares war. That is the idea of collective security. Its not the same thing as collective defense, which is what we had in nato. Nato is all about everybody responding to an attack, they dont use the word aggression. His second idea would what is now called selfdetermination. Woodrow never use that word. The third idea was democracy. He started an argument that now i think is empirically valid, that no two liberal democracies have ever gone to war against each other. You can think of an exception. Let me know. If you come up with a really good exception, i will give you 400 dollars and we will go right the most kicking article in Political Science, trying to prove the iron law of the liberal democratic peace. But i think you can imagine what this means. You could get to world peace without world government, without empire, without the Second Coming if countries would become democracies. Lastly, adopted leak. These are his big ideas. I will concentrate on this one. Theres lots of stuff to talk about here, but it turns out that before the league fight, its you need to know something, by the way. There are the first 25 of the covenant for the league of nations. Woodrow wilson wanted the league of nations in the peace treaty in the world germany so they could not be pulled apart. They went to this is article ten. It is saying something fundamental. Read it for me. Let me ask you a question. If ireland goes up against the British Empire, and the United States had signed this, with the United States have any commitment . External aggression. If not, but i want you to look at this. It this is an extremely controversial part of history. It is the shantung controversy. Shantung had been an area of china which germany had taken over nine 1890. When your knee took over if it german businessmen raped and murdered a chinese woman, the Chinese Police could not touch them. Only German Police operated there could touch them. When world war i began, japan was now of Great Britain. So japan declared war on germany, occupied a bunch of german possessions in the pacific and took over the shantung peninsula. Woodrow wilson realized, for a couple of reasons, he needed japans support for the treaty. He said to the japanese, what is going to take . Japanese had a great idea. They said we want one small little thing. We want a racial equality clause in the versailles peace treaty. We want you to acknowledge the International Relations is no longer for white people exclusively. We want you to start seeing, from the beginning, and by the way, we would appreciate it if you would make sure when we pass that clause, that your legislature in the state of california knows it. Woodrow wilson says, we can do this. He takes that part of the treaty back and says mr. President , you cannot agree to the racial equality clause. Remember, he is a democrat, the heart of democratic support in the car grease is in the segregation of the south. He goes back to germany. We need to talk again. Im not quite sure i could do that. What else do you have on your wish list . We want that. Weijia wilson hates what he is about to do. He is going to give an area of china inhabited by the chinese to japan in order to keep japan support for the treaty. This violates the principles of the determination he has been talking about. But now by the way, i want you to tell you a small part of the story. When it this became public, Chinese University students poured out of the universities in protest in something to me for the 1990 movement. They were profoundly angry that china was being ripped apart in the peace treaty after Woodrow Wilson had talked about Self Determination. Its one of the reasons that University Students in china today are still honored, because at that crucial moment, they were the light of the national consciousness. Okay. So, imagine for just one moment that china goes to war to recover shantung, now remember who lives in shantung . The chinese. If china went toward to recover the territory, the United States signed this . Would we have any obligations now . The United States would be expected to go to war against china. It would launch a justified war of liberation to recover its own territory and the opponents of league say weve got wilson. The great more list has just discovered that attempting to apply universal moral principles to the incredibly complex historical real reality of International Relations is asking for trouble. They start going around the country saying, hey, by the way, are you willing to die for Japanese Imperial control of shantung . And the president s moral prestige takes an enormous hit. Over the shantung controversy. Okay . This is he said its time to realize what is going on here. He is angry. Hes going to strongly impose the treaty. He will make speech after speech. They were war makers. They are sowing the seeds of conflict all over the world, but what they are doing is trying to cover it up by the collective security provisions of the league of nations, because what theyre really going to do is try to set up a system where if you ever challenge what they do by force, we will all go to war to try and maintain their imperialist status quo, collective security is wrong. We should oppose a treaty. So henry cabin lodge goes to work. He tries initially to get amendments to the treaty, but that doesnt work because amendments have to be accepted by every other member of the signing treaty. They Start Talking about called reservations, which is where you sign a treaty but you may make a declaration about how youre going to interpret parts of the tree, and notice what his first reservation is. Hey wilson screwed up. We are not obliged to anything in that mess. But then he says, lets keep going. Wilson was not clear in his treaty. I want to make it clear that the United States can withdraw from the league of nations at a moments notice. Then he says, by the way, the United States will have exclusive control over its territory. The league of nations cannot be involved in internal domestic affairs. Then he says congress has to approve all funds so you cannot get any money for the league of nations unless we approve it, then he says, by the way, even if the league of nations starts disarmament, the United States we reserve the right to increase our moments and then comes the big one. That is going to start the whole fight. This is where almost all of the energy over the league of nations is going to be. Hes going to say, the United States assumes no obligations under article ten. You could call article 10 a moral guideline. You could call it a general principle, but what you cannot call it is unenforceable treaty obligation. Hug by the way, he says, it is a small constitution. Only the congress has the right to declare war. You cannot use an International Treaty to do it around congress has authority to declare war. Does this kind of sound like the Police Action in the korea debate in a few years later . Okay. Then the vote. The reservations go down. He cannot get enough votes for his reservation what is really going on here . What weve got is not a fight between isolationist and internationalists. What weve got going on here is a fight between two rival internationalisms. Wilsons consistently liberal. Large is consistently wilson is in favor of his three great reforms. Large says if we want peace what we need is barrier states. Democracy . Okay, whatever. So collective security . Large says no. Alliances is the key to peace. Not legal commitments that have nothing to do with national interests. Strong Multinational Organization . No to lodge the stakes are too serious. So they get into a fight. Its one fight after another. And the whole question becomes, president wilson its not gonna get the treaty through unless he compromises with lodge. Large is willing to get the treaty through, but only if wilson compromises and knocks off article 10. So the question is could you bail the bridge between these two, at least, initially irreconcilable positions . So some people say, what we can do is declare article 10 a mere moral obligation. But that infuriates Woodrow Wilson. What you could do if they, by the way, we want to acknowledge in our reservation the final authority over warren piece. But wilson is concerned that that will undermine the credibility of the commitment. Or, what you could do is this. You could say that the United States understands with regard to the employment of armed force an article 10 and each member says oh, that is an interesting compromise. And here is the really interesting point. That was Woodrow Wilsons secret compromise. Woodrow wilson himself, as he set out for his gigantic nationwide tour to stop the American People in the league, realized that there may be a problem in talking to the democratic leader of the senate he had written on his own typewriter, for reservations. Including this one. If you cannot get the treaty through then i will accept this, and you get the treaty through. So what happened . If Woodrow Wilson himself secretly had accepted the way to bridge, to build this bridge, what happened . Okay. Woodrow wilson made a series of mistakes. When mistake was that when he went to negotiate the peace treaty he took no republicans in the delegation. He took when it was really an important. He took no major republican leader into his confidence about what he was trying to do. The effect of it was that needed wilsons peace. Wilsons treaty. Not americas treaty. The second thing was he went on this gigantic tour, wasted enormous amounts of energy, apparently changed when he really needed to be doing was sitting and washington with iron fisted negotiations. With guys like lodge trying to find a compromise, wilson almost certainly overestimated the power of Public Opinion to change votes in the senate. But a lot of most important defenders say this is the key point. The Woodrow Wilson who wrote this, was still healthy but in november 1919 and march 1920 wilson ordered democrats to votes no on the treaty rather than to accept lodges reservations. Wilson aborted his own offspring, and the argument is that his increasing psychological rigidity is what had caused this collapse. And made it impossible for him to make the compromise, this therefore the consequences of a gigantic medical crisis. And wilson refused to compromise, what therefore is the story that were trying to see here. What were seeing is probably, there was no way to get the versailles peace treaty through wilson agreement. Was it possible to get any version of the versailles peace treaty through, a lot looser a lot less firm than what Woodrow Wilson yes there is a way. Who is the person who stopping, it was Woodrow Wilson himself. And the result was that the key piece of europe are in Security Architecture everyone had expected, was missing. And if significant forces in europe rose to challenge the versailles peace treaty, the key thing that was needed for europe stabilization would be absent. And that is the story of why wilsons peace lost. Folks we have two questions and two questions. Raise your hands and doctor will be available after our program for additional questions. I thought i was going to escape all right. We first of all thank you so much, it was very interesting very informative. Personally i guess i would consider myself more in the lodge view of things in terms of, a certain realism. Especially with respect to barrier states, would you be able to comment on obviously through wilsons 0. 10 and his protein points, he was very much in favor of Self Determination in eastern europe. What was were there any concerns about having any sort of check in the east to aid defeated germany. Obviously, soviet union at that point was in turmoil only Great Britain and france laid to the west. But the balkans sort of became more of even a mess after the war. If youd be able to comment on that . Woodrow wilson fought thought that a league of nations could bring the european states in europe eastern and western together. And it would be a strong british, french and American Security commitment. So that if the germans, or the soviets ever attempted to invade, they would have confidence that those three great powers would be involved. And so his idea i think, theres a part of the versailles peace treaty call the French Security guarantee, and that was a commitment that wilson had made to close on france. Saying if you will agree to reduce your demands about germany, about this this and this. Then the United States will commit. They didnt quite put it this way, the United States will commit that if germany ever comes at you again we will come to your defense. And that part of the treaty didnt survive the year, so wilson was clearly thinking the best thing would be for germany to change and to see that it can adopt a peaceful democratic development, but if it doesnt the league of nations will represent this commitment to security. Does that help . Thank you very much for enlightening and educating us. I was wondering in your opinion, when you look at the various points of view about victory versus defeat, complete defeat. And setting up barrier states and so on, do you have a personal opinion about which would have been the better way to go . To avoid the Second World War and such. I personally believe collective security cannot work. And i think, there are three problems with collective security, the first problem is it presumes the governments will go to war for things that are not in their interest. And i think they may occasionally take military action, but they wont take Major Military risks for things that are not in their interest. Second, collective security freezes the territorial status quo of the world. Because now people say, hey i dont have to make a compromise with you about giving you this province, or splitting this province. Because if you come over that border, that activates aggression and therefore i can inspect it freezes borders all over the world, adjustment of borders are crucial ingredient overtime to maintaining peace. Then the third thing, i dont believe that anybody agrees on how to define aggression, so if you were to have watched a brilliant International Relations major at georgetown university, i think in 1968. He wrote to his draft board i reject constricts conscription in the vietnam war, because while our government calls it and active aggression its actually a civil war. And therefore i have no, that same guy International Relations measure became president of the United States. In the 1990s bill clinton, said that what was going on in bosnia constituted aggression. There were lots of people, who says it would be a civil war. My sense is there is not agreement of what aggression is, and what happens is, governments decide what the position is, and then hire lawyers to argue that its aggression or not aggression. So it turns out collective security is isnt actually controlling what wilson thought it would control. 25 years ago theres a group of American Scholars and International Relations looking at collective security, wanted to resuscitate it they gave up. In the disaster of the balkan wars where they realize even if aggression rape and ethnic cleansing cant go on, people would not take serious military risk to try and stop it. As far as i know, there are no major stuck scholars as a concept. It has died. Folks were actually going to conclude our program so thank you for everyone joining us, another thank you to doctor gary armstrong. You may ask your question after thank you. Weeknights this month were featuring American History tv programs, as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan three. 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