My grandfather had 500 invested in the stock market. He lost it. This is when people were jumping out the window and so forth. And my grandparents were teachers. I think he taught languages in music. I dont know what my grandmother taught. But they moved from virginia to philadelphia. And that started the family, split the family because my grandparents couldnt get a job. They said they didnt hire black teachers in philly. They had black children going to integrated schools, but no black teachers. So my grandparent took in washing and my grandfather refused to do that type of work. And the family split. The older kids went to college in the family. And they were teachers. The youngest kid was sent to school by the middle children, who did not go to college. They had to work to help pay. So that again, we go about the color line thing. I was born in d. C. My mother was born in virginia. And when i was 3, my parents divorced when i was a baby. And my dad took the boy. My mother took the girl. Remarried. Moved from sfik. San francisco. Then she remarried again. I ended up at virginia union. Which one of my great grandparents was on the board at virginia seminary. It was great to know my great great dwrp had helped to start the school. So talk more about your childhood growing up on the west coast. Before you went to experience virginia, what were the sort of racial dynamics of life in both southern and northern california. Growing up in San Francisco, i lived in what is now called the west end. It was called fillmore back in those days. Its where black people were. You b probably dont even know. I guess its where the black people lived. Then we moved. And i went to saint dominics. It was all white. And every day i used to pray, i hope she doesnt slap me this morning. She would walk down as we were praying and slap me. I would pray to god. God, i have done something wrong, please help me. I didnt know what i had done wrong. Never did. And i used to get fs. All my papers were fs. And i was in the second grade or third grade. And my mother said, you need to bring your papers home and i started crying. She says, whats wrong. I said im dumb. She said bring them home any way. She collected that many papers about an inch and marched me up to the school and says why are these marked wrong. Theres nothing wrong. I didnt know i was bright. And the nun started crying. Mom said, go outside and play. I said im not allowed to play. I have to go to church. While the other kids were out playing . My mother says i think you better go outside. I dont know what she said to the nun, but after that, the smartest girl and i in class were vying firefighter grad. I didnt tell my mother she slapped me. So that was my experience there. I went to a Public School first. And a little white boy said that he couldnt hold my hand because his mother said he couldnt hold the hand of negros. I didnt know. I knew it was something bad because he couldnt hold my hand. That was the first time you heard that . Yeah. Thats my experience. My parents never talked in front of me, but i heard them whispering that hes a teacher, but he can only substitute. Because he has a dishonorable discharge. Because during world war ii, he jumped off a ship, refusing to fight. Because he said why should he fight for america when hes not free here. I remember him saying that. And then i remember my mother trying to get a job. And they told her you join the union first and you can get the job. And the the union says get the job first. And vice versa. This went on. And i remember my mother crying. But not in front of us. I do remember. So little things, subtle things. You know, santa monica had a big rope across the beach. Unofficially. But its there. Teaching jobs. Only teaching the black area. It was there. Its still there. So had your parents at all prepared you for what it would be like as you got ready to go across the country . Heck no. Nobody could prepare you. I sat dun at the soda fountain. I said i want a banana split. Ill never frgt this. One strawberry, one vanilla. If you dont have black walnut, please put another straw berry, no chocolate and syrup on top and whipped cream. The lady went away to make it. She came back and said, we cant serve you. I said, oh, are you out . She says, no. I remember saying, oh, oh, oh, it shocked me. I couldnt get a banana split because im black sitting at the counter. I wasnt thinking. I knew you couldnt, but i wasnt thinking. I just sat down. Had you had experienced like that in california . They are overt, not covert. You can feel them. I had been asked. When us went to high school, my cousin was filipino. And she says, i want you to come with me to the phfilipino picni. She says, come with me. So i went. I took my date. And when we got to the place outside of San Francisco, the guy said on the gate, i have to let you in. Are you sure you want to come . So i have had that type of thing. Or places in you people can come in, do you think youre going to be happy . Interesting. Kind of coded. Or presented a different way. May i ask why you decided to go to a traditionally black . My mother thought it would be good for me. But i think i should have gone to howard. Dont get me wrong. Virginia union was great, but i should have been in the city. Because it was too much learning at one time being in the south and the mentality. So what was that like . You talked about the ice cream parlor, but what was that like . I us didnt like anybody. It was first of all i thought i was wrong. I didnt know anything. This is what year . In the 50s. 59, around then. But as a young person, youre very ignorant, but you dont know it. And i thought i knew everything. And when i went there, i couldnt understand why the white people treated the blacks the way they were treated and why the blacks allowed it. I even got angry with some of the black people for not sitting in. The kids. I didnt understand. I do now. If they had sat in, they wouldnt have dinner on the table that night because their parents would have been fire d. I had no idea. So what was the union like in terms of sort of a consciousness . Or even were there teachers talking about it . I believe it was a way of life. They knew how to live within the system. Im not saying it was comfortable for them, but they had a black society, which was a way of living. I remember dr. Johnson, who was my favorite struinstructor ther. He had two ph. D. S. He got his first when he was 18 maybe, im not sure. A very bright man. He used to play in a quartet, i dont know what he played, violin or something. He said one night he was driving home. He used to tell jokes in class. He had the white woman. He thought, im dpoing to be killed. He was always saying things like that. But i dont know. I dont remember. Im so old. I dont remember. The sitins you got involved in, im curious what prefigured those . What kinds of conversations were you having amongst yourselves . We were having meetings. Charles and tony pinken were the leaders. We were always having metings about that. Can you remember what some of those meetings were . Being old is a son of a gun. No, i dont. I thought the world was going to change though. I was so naive. I remember, the Police Person was very nice to me. I remember when we were arrested he held my hand and helped me up into the wagon. I thought that was so nice. My aunt called me. She said youre being helped into the wagon. You mentioned some students didnt participate. I was angry with them. I felt they lived in virginia. They should. I met a lady at the 50th year reunion. Evidently, i knew her, but they needed pictures. I didnt remember anyone. Because i havent seen these people in 50 years. And we were sitting at the table and tears were coming down her eyes. I felt like crying too, but i dont cry in front of people. And she said that her father was fi fired. They had to move out of state. She had to drop out of school. I dont know if she ever finished college. I thought, thats how naive i was. She was one of the people from virginia. But i wanted all of them to be there. But i didnt live in virginia. My parents were in california. I know were not all going to be hunky dor ri, but its going to be integration now. I remember when we got arrested, we went to a courthouse. And im sorry, we went to jail. They put us in this cell. It was smelly. Not even a clean cell. And then in the court, the court was segregated. I felt like am i in hell . Even the courts are segregated. Then i remember a black man came in and he was a drunkard and you could smell him. I thought why do the drudges have to come in . Just its going downhill fast. And i thought am i losing my mind. Horrible. But i just thought, okay, now that we have sat in, we have these attorneys and everything is going to be right. Its not going to be any longer. You can change laws, but you cant change people. What kind of process is that . What do you think . I think the young kids today, many of them didnt grow up during that era. And many of them if you get angry with anyone, its angry not buzz of a persons color, its for some other reason. I think thats great. Many of the kids were that way today. Youre going to have an upper dog and a lower dog. I dont remember. Youre asking me difficult questions. I dont remember. I was surprised it was so important. This would have been the sitin was about three weeks after the one in greensboro on february 1st. Do you know if you were aware of other sitins . Yeah. Honest to pete, i dont remember. But you were aware . Yeah. What about the notion of nonviolence and us how you were going to comport yourselves . What could be dangerous. I was going to be a nonviolent person. Im not a violent person any way. Just my mouth, unfortunately. I thought its not fair to have people hit you and you cant really protect yourself. Its not really fair. Had i been a man, i probably would have been angry and retaliated. I dont know that. But maybe. Was there retaliation . No. The dogs ask things, but it was fine. What actually happened . We went downtown several days. And we sat down and, well, i didnt sit down. Being so tall, they pointed me out. Really and truly. I stand out. And they just wouldnt serve us. It was relatively calm to what i have seen on the news and talked with other people. How many students . 34. Were you arrested right away . We walked. The first time we werent. The second time we were. It was kind of i hate to say this, but a jovial mood. A lot of kids walking together. And were all going to change the world. I dont know how they felt, but thats the attitude i had and the feeling i get. Songs being sung . Yeah, but dont ask me the names of them. I had to learn black culture. Us had to learn the black songs. Growing up a catholic, you dont know those songs. I had never heard the black National Anthem before in my life. A lot of things i had to learn. I remember i went to adam paul was a big man. He and my uncle worked together too. He came to town to talk. I went to one of his meetings, civil rights meetings. And the people clapped and ba banged their feet and it scared me because i had i dont want this on the thing. I had never been in a whole group of black people. Can you imagine im black and im scared. That doesnt make good sense. You said when you first got to virginia. I got a better understanding of what was happening. The black people had to live there. The white people were only going along with the status quo. And i knew i was getting the hell out of there. As soon as you could . As soon as i could. Because i didnt like virginia. It has many fine qualities. I was too immature to really appreciate what was happening. I was too immature. Did you ever experience other parts of the south or the deep south . No. No. That was enough. You finished . Uhhuh. Where did you go from there . You mean school wise . I went to d. C. I had a young boyfriend. My mother kept saying come become to california. I said when i go back, im not going back to san diego. I dont like san diego. Its too country. San diego was flat i said im going home to San Francisco. She says please come back. Ill tell you what. Ill pay your way back and if you dont like it, you can go back to d. C. Or San Francisco. Well, i came back and starred partying. Im a kid. And then i got a job. So i was stuck there for two years. Another city i didnt like. Then i moved to l. A. Because im partying in l. A. I have friends this. This is during the summertime. I love dancing. Ill go get a job. I never did because i waited too late. What did you do for work . My last job was Assembly Bill 922, which is an expulsion counsellor for unified School District. Did you work for the schools . I taught people working for masters. I taught graduate students career psychology. Im a california person. So i do want the to ask more details about the sitins but lets stay in california. What did that experience that you went through there as a student and just experiencing that side of jim crow that was kind of different. And then going through the sitins there and coming back, what did you take away from that . What did you bring back to california . That the wheels of justice turn slowly, really and truly. Its slowly. I often thought would i do it again, yeah, i would do it again. It dp hurt me job wise. I went for a job in d. C. And the guy said i have to hire you, but because you made on the exam, but i dont think youd be happy here. But i see you have been involved in civil rights. Because i always put down i have an arrest record. Then for for the written exam, i never flunked the written. They flunked men of the training and experience. So i was working for the County School district before i came to l. A. And i asked the superintendent of the counties, he liked me as a person. Can you find out why they wont hire me. He said you have an arrest record and they think youre going to be a problem. I finally got in because someone mistakenly sent me a contract. I think it was my guardian angel. I think somebody saw what was happening. Maybe a black secretary and sent the paper out. You want to talk more about the sitins, and i guess i dont talk a lot about it because i think i have suppressed that. It was uncomfortable. And it hurts to this day. It hurts because many peoples attitude have not changed on both sides. And also when i see these black kids not going to school, it hurt mess to my heart. Not vote iing, dont they reali they need an education. They have to vote. Many of them are not doing it. And i want to cry. You told me before we started that thinking back to these times made you feel emotional. I was wondering what exactly you were thinking about. The whole thing in life, the situation is today. And also with obama being president , many feelings have come to surface, many of what other people feel have come to surface in a negative fashion. I dont like that. The screaming out during sessions, calling him names, comparing him to hitler and so forth. I do know you always need a top dog. I understand that. If we get rid of race, it will be size, color of eyes, something. When my brother came back from switzerland, he was a man behind kissinger conference. He came back and says, you know, he says, this stuff is bs. The racial stuff. We have world problems. He was really upset. He says we have real problems to contend with. You come from a family of serious issues with an emphasis on education. Any insight . No, not at all. Im glad i did. Your work in the School District and as a counsellor, were there racial issues that came up . Yeah, in fact, i was so angry i wrote a letter. Threepage computer written letter. They are going to say its not racial, but it was. We did expulsions for kids who brought knives, guns, drugs, et cetera. We had a hearing. If we found this to be so, then we told you you were straight expelled or expended expelled, which meant either kicked out of the School District or go to a special school. We had a kid who without any names, of course, who was involved and very involved in drugs, but because his parents had money, he was white, they didnt kick him out. I was so angry. And i was one of three on the committee. I told the other Committee People who are are white, i said, you know, hes guilty. They said well hes going to go to college. I said, will we judge it on a case by case i said dont feed that to me. Thats like saying youre so good, you can do that. I said dont do that to me. I said the kid is guilty. So i wrote a letter saying the inner city kids who are not going to go to college who do the same thing or not as much will be expelled. So its there. So insidious. How did you feel when obama was elected . I was elated because he was intelligent. Not because he was only black, but because he was intelligent, knowledgeable and i felt he was going to do the best he could for everyone. Not just black people, everyone. You cant have someone doing for one group and not the whole. Were your working with the School District during the bussing period in los angeles . Yeah, in fact, i was on one of the committees. I asked a question. I said why are you only bussing the black kids . And the person who was in charge said did you hear what i said. He shut me up. He said, did you hear what i said . Right now were bussing the black kids and he talked over me. They are the ones who had to get up early, come home late, drive far. I know where us lived in l. A. , i lived in view park, which had the number one Elementary School academically in my area. Because the people who live in my area were educators, doctors, lawyers, black people, mostly. And our school was top. They bus the kids from the school and no parent would put a kid on the bus. They said why should we bus our kids. They had sintegrated experience. They have gone to europe. They have been to stores. They dont need to go to a white school. What the School District did was take out every other grade so you had to bus your kid away. Was that one of the reasons you sent to private school . I just did. I sent them to the frervelg school. They ended up at Public School eventually. Had an okay experience . My kids dont see things the way i see things. My son used to be Vice President of dr. Pepper. And before that, he was with frito lays in marketing. I dont want to say anything about different corporations, so i wont name the corporation, but he had a Glass Ceiling also, which yeah. Did you talk as you were raising your own children, did you talk to them about the experiences you had had . I did not, no. My mother didnt tell me. She would show me these history books and i would see and read in the history books. She didnt want to prejudice me against people, which i can appreciate. And i didnt want to do that to my children either. I know i took them out of school and took on Martin Luther kings birthday. I would take them to the museum. That was the big black thing we did, i guess. Before it was a national holiday. What about getting positive images of black people in schools and things like that . I dont think anymore than i got. I dont think so. I was on a book committee. I said why is this page with the black earn on it at the end of the chapter and it was because when we send is the books down south, we tear that page out. We dont include that page. But i have read the chapter and it has nothing to do with the chapter. You just stuck a black person in there to sell your book. Im just curious what is the Civil Rights Movement to you . I know it can be defined in different ways. Im interested being the experiences you had whether you see yourself as part of it. What is this . I think today the kids, especially in l. A. , they are not concerned about civil rights. Its la la land. What shoes do you have on, what purse, what brand name. Whether you can rap, play basketball or football or jewelry or car, its a different story. Thats black, white, green or yellow. They are involved in superficial things that wont last, i dont think. To me, i moved up here. And i kept my house in l. A. I said in case they burn a cross on my lawn, im moving. Im too old it to fight now. Im moving. And of course, they did not. White people did not. You thought that might happen . I read in the papers that a black kid in high school had it printed on her locker. Just before with moved. We have been here nine years. Did that so hearing about an overt incident of racism like that, did that surprise you . I didnt expect it, but it didnt surprise me. Could you tell me what life was like. I guess its like anything for any white person. Its a small town that closes up when the sun goes down. It has one block of downtowns. It has a lot of boutiques that are expensive and a lot of little restaurants. It has a theater that gets first class movies because of all the directors that live here. It has two live theaters and one theater the local people play in. The other theater, i dont go to them anymore. I go to l. A. You can go in the club and take your child and your dog. Its a nice little place. Its nice. There are walking trails and horse trails. And the helicopters are private helicopters. Thats one thing i have to say this. We were just in los angeles. I havent been there in 20 ye s years. It was Something Else to see the helicopters again. I know how to work the projects. I knew if the helicopters were overhead, if its too late in the day, you dont go in. Did you do home visits . Not as an expulsion counsellor, but before that, i was making home calls as a job and another counsellor. Which expulsion was ushd that. It was i dont know how many jobs under psa. You learn how to make home ca s calls. You learn what we call mothers day when the people get their welfare check, you dont go in. Different day it is and things. The people werent going to be home. They are busy. Thats what youre doing. Where do you think we are now . The more things change, the more they stay the same. I think things are we have code words now. Its like living in california now. Its covert. But my neighbor, were going out to eat next monday, the four of us. My neighbor when i moved in her, my neighbor sent me a pie, which i thought was very nice. Another neighbor gave me some fruit. My neighbor said, im from some southern state. And she said it again to let me know that, hey, im okay. Im a human being. Because she told me that. Trying to make a connection. I didnt answer your question. I have pondered that question. Where are we today. The black kids dont have to go into education, social work, ministry. Whatever the jobs were that we could get, if you notice you ask an old person like me, im 73, what did you do . They are all in education. Because thats the only thing we could do. All the black men were at the post office. Today you can get other jobs. Us dont know how high youre going, but you can get other jobs. So thats the segue to let me ask about your graduate student experience. Whether there are women in your program or black students in your policewoman program. Yeah, usc didnt have many blacks. There were other blacks. There were a few. Not many. And the experience was fine. I didnt feel any racism at all. So from that experience that you had, especially the sit isin experience, did you did you draw on that experience at all . Draw on it in which way . I dont know. Just leave it open to you. Were there times that came back to you or that you took something from that experience that that may have influenced what you did with it . I think it opened me to be more respectful in my mind of people, of different cultures. I call rich men a different culture. To be respectful and to appreciate differences. We all cant be alike. To appreciate where i am at the moment. At that time, i cant stand it. Look at the people. Im judging. S they were fine. What was it like going back to the recent re union . It still looks the same to me. Yet they say it had. I said this place is the same. I like visiting, but im going to live in california. Im sure they are glad im here. Would you have sent your own children to black colleges . My son went to union, but he didnt like it. He said i cant take it. But he did go to morehouse. Then that school in california i told you. Was that going to historically black colleges . I wanted both my children to go. But my daughter was only 15 when she started. My son was 16 or 17. Too young. She said she was too immature. But she knew she was. What did i take out of it . As i said, i had my eyes open when i went to the reunion for the sit isin people. And i had thought about it too. About how they are so judgmental. I remember an old black lady saying, why are you guys marching for this . You need to march for better jobs. I thought you silly old lady. She must have been every bit of 50. Why are you asking me these silly questions. I didnt say that to her, but i was thinking that or were not ready yet. So really youre involved in very early sitin. I gararaduated in delaware . Other parts of the south . Definitely. The march on washington, i was here. I told my husband, gee, i want to go to the march on washington. I really did. And my brother would keep me informed. He said today people are meeting a at white house and planning strategy with kennedy. I said, youre kidding. He says, yeah. Do you remember your reactions . I was, treatmently happy. It doesnt take much to make me happy though. How does that relate to what we were saying before about maybe you can change rules, but can you change hearts and minds . Did you think those acts were important . First of all, you have to educate people. It may be hopefully through education. People will change their way of thinking, hopefully. Maybe people will get out to vote, i keep saying they. The parties that be. Put stumbling blocks in the way. You have so many people that dont care. What deference does my vote m e make. Its not going to change anything any way. Whats your reaction to that . Good, lets take it all the way up and see what happens. As my uncle and aunt, lets have a good old fight. My uncle and aunt love knock em down fights. How did your family react about your involvement in the sitins . I called my uncle. He said screw ball, talk to m. Martin. That was the attorney handling it. That was his friend. I talked to the attorney. I said my uncle told me to talk to you. I said who is your uncle . I know him. I said for you to take care of me. He says, i will. I felt happy and giddy about the si sitins. It was depressing the whole thing of being in that wagon. It was not clean. And then being in the jail wasnt clean. And the guy who came in was nasty and smelly. I thought im losing my mind. This is hell. I really thought i didnt know what hell was at that time. I was giddy because im changing the world. Its going to change mow. Were all going to be happy and black people are going to stand up and the white people are going to be okay. Were not all going to sit down and eat ice cream together, but at least youre going to respect that i can sit down here. So you got support of your uncle. And my aunt. My aunt called me from new york. Were there others that were fearful for you . Nobody. Not at all. They were very happy. My uncle says, claude debt, things are not going to change as fast as you think. It takes time. Did you believe him . Yeah, because i knew he was doing that. Yeah, i believed him. Did you feel that the family that you came from prepared you for what you got involved in in some ways . Im sure. Without knowing it, you give your children their values. Covrtly and overtly, both ways. In fact, my mother always said the squeaky wheel always gets the attention, whether its bad or good. I guess i was a squeaky wheel. Have you stayed in touch with people from virginia . You went to the reunion. No, only charles. And i saw him on tv doing black history month. I said thats charles. I went online and found him. Had you been aware of what he had been doing all these years . No. What was he like . He was my boyfriend. Now were getting somewhere. At that time, i was a pseudo catholic. I went to Catholic Church in richmond. And i knelt down and everyone came in the pew. They locked over and saw me and got up and left. I said my faith is not that good to start out with. You guys are not helping it any. And people are going to hate me when i say this because im spiritual now, whatever that means. So i told the priest after mass, people came in when i say people, i mean white people. People came in their pew and they looked over and saw me and got up and left. Then an old lady came, there was no place to sit. She came late and saw me, she knelt down beside me and saw me and got up and left. He says, my child, pray for her. I thought im not going to church anymore. I have to pray for people and you cant tell them. That was the last time you went to that church . Yeah. As i said, my faith wasnt too strong any way. Didnt take much to make it go away. So what was Young Charles like . He was nice. I would go with him when he preached. He had to do an intern preaching at these country churches. He used to say, darn, you catholic girl. When i say boyfriend girlfriend, we werent tight, but we were boyfriend girlfriend. Had you seen preaching like that before . Yeah, i went with my girlfriend in San Francisco to one of her churches. But they werent emotional. But they did sing songs. Songs with a beat to it. I like that now. I dont know a beat that would be easy to find here. No, you can get it on youtube. Do you have any other questions . No, we covered a lot of ground. Im sorry. My memory is really bad. I am so sorry. Is really bad. I am so sorry. You did mention it was a very emotional time. What was the access that made it so emotional . Well, i felt like i wanted to cry because when i think about what, as they said happened in the past and what is happening now, im not too sure were that far from the past and now with things that, i went online to see the insults that were hurled at obama and i had to stop because they were so very many of them. And all of them, some of them are right up in his face. And i thought, why . I used to think the poorer the person was, the more they would hull insults, but thats not true. They could have ten phds and do the same thing. I want to cry about my black children not voting. White kids, too, dont vote, unfortunately. Not going to school. Drugs are rampant. Ohio has a big drug problem. You know, what are we doing . Where are we going . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I dont know. Obviously were through this project, were in some ways, celebrating the Civil Rights Movement, but were also taking stock, too, so its a time to reflect. Yeah. Not only on what was done and sent into the 1960s, but where we are. Sometimes i dont want to reflect. Because its uncomfortable. I told my husband, oh, im freezing again. I said, you know, im not feeling this paper out before i go to bed. Because i wont be able to sleep. When i put my uncle down and my ou aunt down thinking about the things they were involved in and so forth. You think about how they would respond . No, i know, i know what they went through. You know. I did tell you, my aunt integrated the bus line. The Greyhound Bus line that the courts had already said should be not separate, but equal. Together. And they did not integrate it. It was in virginia. And my aunt, my mother was visiting. My aunt told my mother and another sister, come on, were going to go to d. C. From virginia. And were going by bus. My mother says why . Lets drive. And my aunt said no, were going by bus. Mama says, we dont take the greyhound. Any way, we took the greyhound. You keep going to. My uncle. And adam clayton powell. Because im going to get arrested. And she did. Because she sat in the white section, but the courts made them obey the law. That surprised me about the movement was how much once the law was in effect, how much testing of the law had to be oaf the country. Right. Yeah. In fact, something was on the news recently about some little southern town, but i dont know what it was. Did you see it . I missed it. Oh, yeah. Theyre still, but i know even here in california, i know not to go in some cities. Today. Heck, yes. Because you know, what kinds of things do you think would happen . Well, for example, i was going to a city, i didnt want to name the city, and i passed through a little place, Canyon Country down that way. And i got lost before i had gps and my daughter was with me. I said we cant stop at that little club there. I said it looks like a little red neck club, we cant stop there. I said, do you even know what im talking about . She says, mom, i know. I dont know she knew. She said she knew. And because you can feel it. You know . Yeah. And thats something that in some ways, hasnt changed. Im sure you can sense those places. Yeah. Throughout your right. And when you intellectualize it, you get it trouble. You have to feel it in your gut and go with your gut. Yeah. You can decide a lot of things intellect alley, bual ths are different. Absolutely. And thats true for man, period. Regardless of race. And in some ways, you rely on community, right, to help you through that. To navigate these things. Yeah. I would think difficult in a place like ohio. Communitys not that large. I felt it, but i move on. You dont have to like me. Thats fine. Yeah. Do you remember when they had the green book for black people for aaa . No, i dont. Oh, youre too young. Whats that . When you traveled, we were little. I was little. And our, my parents used to go to aaa and get you know, how they draw the map for you. Well, they had a special book for black people. Where you could stay. You know. Because when we traveled, my parents sometimes would stop at a black persons house and say do you know where black people can stay, when we traveled down, and they would say mrs. Jones has a room. And we would go there. And stay overnight. Those are the kinds of things that people cant even imagine now. You know . Yeah. People, i mean, there are people i talk with, they seem like grown ups and they werent even born until 2000. They have no idea. 1995. Thats true. Says a lot about tripaaa. The process to have people adapt a add and take care of each other. That you could stop at someones house and theyd put you up. That mrs. Jones did. On the flip side, integration closed many black peoples businesses. Absolutely. You know. Yeah. Peg leg baits had a place in the upper new york, i cant think of what its called. People back east know it. And i heard that the black people used to go there and stay overnight and have a good time and it closed when the integration happened. Many of the black hotels and other places closed. Yeah. Are there other things that you think the black community lost through integration . I think some of the black kids dont know who they are, whatever that means. Who they are. Yeah. You know. You know. My girlfriend is married to a mexican fellow and her kids told her, mom, oh, you just think that because youre black. And, yeah, they dont know anything about her, really. Yeah. They dont identify. Right. Yeah. We hear a lot of story, stories of loss or nostalgia good old days. Black schools, yeah. Yeah. Good old days, even though there was a lot that were bad. Yeah, you know, speaking of black, i have written the l. A. Times and various other newspapers about not capitalizing the word black. And i spelled it out why i felt it should be. I said white is generic. Black is not. When you say black, you only mean an american. From africa. You dont mean a jamaican. A puerto rican. You only mean a person in america who is black. So it should be capitalized. And i feel that its an insult when you see in the papers different groups of people and theyre like lower case letter for black. You know . Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I wrote a letter, or also in that package, i have a letter that i wrote to this local paper and im surprised they printed it. They talked about two black women doing something fraudulent and should you see them, call the police. So, i wrote them. A long letter. I said you named two black women. I said, you have made it dangerous for me to walk downtown. No description. That was the only description. Yeah, its in that packet. Incredible. Yeah. Have you written any other letters to the editor over the years or issues like that . Only about the black issue have i written. I wrote it to the l. A. Times and im a always writing. But i write good letters, too, to compliment people when they should be. I was riding my bicycle and turned the corner too fast and for the first time, i didnt have my helmet on and i hit my head on the fire hydrant on the corner and im down there crying like an ugly thing. Just crying. And i look uglier than ugly when i cry. Two men got out of their truck, said, are you okay . Im crying, one man held my head, then i thought, oh, god, youre look iing ugly, so i stopped crying. But you know, there were two white men helping a black lady or two men helping a female for that matter. Yeah. So, i havent felt anything. Im sure, as i said, if i feel anything, i move on. You know. Might be wrapping up here. Do you think about what you did at virginia union. I do now. I didnt think it was. I thought it was something we were doing and it was one of many people across the country. But i didnt realize until afterwards. In fact, i didnt realize it until i was at a school at a library and a lady says, do you know anything about the Civil Rights Movement . And i said, yeah, i do. I was in it. She said, you were . Not a big deal. Then i realize erealized, shes. Shes a young teacher. And thats when it hit me. I guess it was a big deal. Yeah. Weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan 3. Tonight, a look at the Civil Rights Movement. On september 2nd, 1963, nbc news broadcast a three hour program on the status of the Civil Rights Movement called the American Revolution of 63. Reporting from 75 locations throughout the united states, it includes apooerpearances from wellknown activists and from opponents. Watch tonight at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every wieekend on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the American Revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and for logging into class. With most College Campuses closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with their students. Gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union, but reagan met him halfway. Reagan encouraged him. Reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, madison called it freedom of use of the press and it is indeed freedom to print and publish things. It is not a freedom for what we now refer to institutionally as the press. Lectures in history on American History tv on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Lectures in history is also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Up next, an oralry interview with thomas gaither. He talks about attendi ining cl lynn college in south carolina, his work for the congress in racial equality and helping to organize the 1961 freedom rides. This is part of an oral history project initiated