Transcripts For CSPAN3 Oral Histories James Oscar Jones 20240712

University North Carolina chapel hill. My parents earnest jones and mom pertis jones. Dad, a farmer born and raised on a farm. That was his life. Thats what he loved to do. Im a member of a family of ten children, 6 boys and 4 girls. And the first five children was born as routen because their dad was routen and he was killed cutting logs in the wood. So that first five were very young when he died, and then my dad, earnest jones married my mama and has five more children. But my dad raised all ten of us because they were very, very young when their dad got killed. And basically what he did was we were very disciplined, had a seventh grade education. Mom had a seventh grade education but very bright, brilliant people. And one of the ambition they had and they gave us as we were little kids he had two goals for us. He wanted all of us educated and he wanted to see all ten of us in heaven. And so he wanted us to be committed to church, hard work and school. So i had the pleasure of going to school all the way through elementary, all the way through high school and i never missed a day. He was mean and tough on us going to school. So we had to get up 4 00 in the morning, milk the cows, feed the pigs and do all of this, walk 1 mile from the house to the dirt road where the bus came by and catch the bus at 6 45. And you had to do that. That fast your chore and it applied to everybody. The girls and boys the same way. So we had the fortune of understanding work very early and going to school very early. And thats kind of what dad shaped. He said he was when he bought his first acre of land he was 13 years old. He paid 1. 25. It took him six months to make that 1. 25. So the farm we grew up on were part of my mamas side but he added to the acreage and grew us a good farm and we farmed cotton and corn and then we had because he couldnt borrow any money in those days he created a large piece of the farm and we had peach orchards and berries and the cash sale we made from the fruits and vejtinals and what he used to fund the cotton and corn. When i was a little boy there was a lot of folks there. Its never has been an incorporated town. Its just a village. I mind say i grew up it was a hundred kids maybe. And what happened is most of the kids grew up with me. Went to detroit, dallas, texas, houston, texas, all those places looking for work. We were the only black farm group in willisville with a farm. All the other kids worked on farms but they were not theirs, primarily white farmers. And that was hard because they werent allowed to go to school. They came to school maybe after thanksgiving. But by march it was time to start tilling the soil again. They had to come back to work, so a lot of them didnt have that opportunity i had to go to school from grade 1 through high school. Howd you father manage the farm without all that extra help that would have been there if he hadnt sent you every day to school . Well, what he did was all of us was big enough to something from older sisters and brothers, but also he always used there were some older kids that dropped out of school and just kind of wandered. And he he would go get those kids and bring them back and they would work with their with us. And he would pay them at the end of the day or the end of the week. They were kpietd unt that because when they worked on other farms they didnt own a lot of time they were put on the books. And the problem with that system is they never made enough money, they never worked hard enough to pay off those debts. And dad would have them come over in september when the state fair was taking place and he would say come over here late evening and ill give you a little work so you have a few bucks to go to the fair. Everybody wanted to go to the fair but they didnt have any money so thats how dad helped out. And therapy gracious to come out and work at our place as well. Were they active in the naacp . My mama was very active. Dad stayed very close to the farm, you know, day in, day out. But sunday was a day you couldnt touch the farm. I mean, that was a day you had no choice but to get up and down the dirt road and fighting the dust going to church, all day long church. Not one service like the city folk out at 12 00. No, you went to the church in the morning and when you get out of that church you went to another church because my mom had a beautiful singing voice and everybody in the neighborhood wanted her to come sing. Wed hop in the back of the truck and somebody had a 5 00 meeting, wed go to that church. So it was church, church, church, church. Oh, yeah, i had plenty of church. Tell me about their sense of politics and race relations. My mama everybody called my mama vic. As a matter of fact when she passed away and a lot of folks called the funeral home in magnolia and said who is this pe pertis jones. And the undertakersize said everyone knows her as vic. Hundreds and hundreds of people came in, but mom maw on she was very active in organizations, naacp in magnolia, that was the closest place. And when she would come back she would talk to kids at church. They talked about in meetings how we could do better, how folk need to learn how to fix up their own homes and all that and stop depending on outside people. And then she would when they would have those meetings she and her sister would throw people in the back of the old pick up truck and they were gone. And there was not a thing where she would ask permission. Shed just get in the truck and go through and get in this truck, and they would go to the meetings. So the kids would go into the room and they were glad to jump into the back of the truck and go somewhere. And that was her. She was just very active all over the place. And when she learned about what people were doing she would come back to church and talk to the Church People about what we need to do is we need to get the men together to do this and the women get together because thats the kind of thing she would learn from the naacp meeting. Brown v. Board to montgomery to little rock, special little rock given where you were the one thing i remember is was the brown case, Thurgood Marshal and my dad he had this big old radio and it was very powerful. In arkansas we could peck ick u. Louis. And put out on radio that on that day 12 00 noon, its standstill at 12 00 noon because the Supreme Court is fixing to make an announcement. And that announcement and the Supreme Court, theyre going to change this whole nation. So daddy, you know, said and he went to the Little School sweet home where i was going to school. He went on there and told the teacher about it and said that we need to make sure everybody hear what is about to be said. So he had that much politics in his head, and people got those radios and really was listening for that announcement. So he stayed on top of stuff. He was that same way about farming. He could not borrow money from administration, but what he would do is he kept his eyes very close on what white farmers were doing and some of the wealthier white farmers would use the plows and they would break a plow and they had the ability to go and get money and get a new one. What he did is hed ask those black guys working for those white owners is what theyre going to do with that plow, oh, nothing. I want to see if i can get that plow. So theyd say earnest want that plow. He can have it, its broke. And he would take up to a Vocation School and the kids were experienced in welding and we would use those plows. So those were an accumulation he couldnt have to pay for. So he was on top of the farming as well as the political side of things. The fact your father owned his own farm, how much of that mattered in two ways, one in relation to other members of the black community locally and in relation to maybe how your life unfolded in in a sense of how you measured your own possibilities and independence. The first part on the farm side when mom and dad, people who lived on other farms and they had very poorhouses, he knew that if we did any kind of work on those houses they would get tossed off the farm. What he would do is hed have us to go help them. Wed go cut wood and put it on the inside to seal the holes and everything. And that was no cost. And that was something we, his sons, we had to do it. And i remember one time my brother under me he took a quarter from this lady. Yall do so much and were so thankful. And i told chester, dont take no money. This is something he want us to do for folks. And we went home and daddy will say did you boys take any money. I said no sir and well, chester did. He took the quarter and we wept to Church Sunday and he made chester take that quarter up to the pulpit and put it in offer. He could not spend it. And we did that for a lot of elderly people. On the other side i was being kind of trained to do something pretty good, but i didnt see it because dad and mama would go to the school and would have all these talks with the teachers. And what they were talking about later on i learned from my older sisters and brothers is that they said, james, dad and mom are very proud of you. Youre real smart and theyll tell those teachers to push you, push you real hard because you got the smarts. I learned later because i always had to do everything in school. We have a school program, we want you to be the mc, we want you to start that group, we want you to be over the Agriculture Program and i had all these assignments. So when i i would come home i didnt get a chance to go out and play because i had to do all these things. Now, james, youve got to get all that stuff done. So between feeding the hogs and chickens and all that, by that time its dark. And i also played basketball on a basketball team. But i didnt see anything in that. But when i got a little further in school toward 11th grade i could see it. We want you to do some marvelous things, james, and youve got the skill, youre smart. You do good work in school. Youre going places. They started encouraging me. And when that happened i was playing basketball, and this was a real shock to me because, you know, we worked hard and dad didnt give me no money, and wed always ask, daddy, other kids come work on the farm. Why do you pay them but you dont pay us, and he said thats because im saving for hard time. Dad, its pretty hard. No, you dont even know what hard time is. Youve got a place to stay, clothes. And my oldest sister and brother would write letters and say how youre doing in school and send me your grades, and, you know, back in those days a dollar you were filthy rich. Im interested were going to talk about everything thats going to happen in pine bluff after you bet there in 61 and im curious how much the early 60s were. Little rock in 57, greensborough in 60, all of what happened quickly after that. The one big favor well, not favor but one thing that prepared me really well for that is that because daddy and mama listen to the radio and they paid attention to that kind of stuff, and they were really on top of central high. And i remember one time mama said to me, she said, son, if youre ever put in that situation dont turn it down. You go forward with it. And that was a result of what i didnt realize was that my mama and my aunt and daddy in the early days they had buses come through a small town, and even in those days they were the only black folks that would get on that bus on the front seat. And then that kind of came back to me. And i said oh, were integrating the bus line. Because when central high came through it kind of and those were her words. Whenever you get an opportunity to do something for other people dont be afraid because you didnt come from an afraid it was dangerous when yall went to wear your own cotton, black people didnt like that. But youve been through it, and youve seen it. And when opportunity comes dont go to the back of the line. You go to the head of the line and be brave about it. Now, they did talk about that. And when i went to went off to school, you know, i had all that in my head. So it wasnt i wasnt looking for anything. But when i got to pine bluff and in the cities you saw real segregation. When you go to town you would see it. I wasnt organizing nothing, but i saw it as i wept downtown and i saw the holiday inns and all those. And i looked at them and only thing i sue is black folks, they were maids. When i went back home this is what my mama said to me. If you go somewhere dont you never go through a back door. If whites go through the front door you go through the front door. Now, i heard that from her. Can you tell us that story just a little bit. Well, kids who lived on a plantation they would work hard and youd have these 10 and 12 foot long sacks. And when you picked that much cotton you were hitting 60 pounds, 65 and some guys would work really good and hit as much as 80. But when they brought their bags to the gin white people didnt let them stay there to weigh their own cotton. So they would bring the bags and drop them and go back. Now, in my case daddy and mama, aunt and uncle went to the gin. They would sit right at the gin with them Double Barrel shotguns and two shells between their finger. And when we got our cotton, come on, boys. And they would go up there and weigh we would weigh our own cotton. Now, the kids who would bring their cotton to the gin, they couldnt weigh theirs. And wed sit there and watch this. Sometimes those bags would be 70 pounds of cotton. And these guys would go, well, john, whatd you think. Oh, let me see, oh, giveandtake 41 pounds. Give them the benefit of 47 pounds. So thats 40 pounds they were taking away from them. So i would sit there and witness that. The fun kind of thing we felt pretty comfortable because mom and aunt were there with those guns. So when we weighed our cotton wed look at the white folk how could you get away with that . You know, everybody in willisville and the surrounding area believed if they bothered my family there was a whole lot of killing going to take place. They believed that. Because my brother had been in a real bad racial situation. Troy, he was the only black member who wept to a town called mcneal and he got a job working the old railroad. And on the way back when they got to macneal they told troy he had to get off the train because blacks couldnt well, negro. It was negro in those days. Negroes couldnt ride the train through the town at that time. And my brother troy wouldnt get off the train. And just like my parents he had his weapon. And it was a hard knock down fight. He stabbed and cut a whole bunch of white folks. And then they chased him and shot him up pretty bad, but he got through all that. And so the white people they were going to decide to our house and kill him. And mr. Chester waters is the guy who had built a little store there. He told the people dont yall go over there, yall going to get killed. And so my daddy had some brothers, some cousins and you had to go down through these woods, this dirt road to get over to the farm. And dark at night they were coming in there to get troy. Man, there were so much shooting and so many people got hit, and i heard them screaming, oh, ive been hit. And what daddy did and his brothers when they were shooting people they went to them and took their guns. They let them go but they took all their guns. It was kind of known that the mckinneys werent the folks to mess with, and it was a lot of them, it was a bunch of them. How old were you then . Oh, 8, 9. As a matter of fact, i went up so i thought he was talking to me and i walked all the way to willisville and told this white guy tell me the impressions you formed and im thinking about you mentioned already you saw segregation in the landscape but also on the campus because that was a very important institution. When i got there pine bluff that was my first big city. The campus was very pretty. And what helped me jump start real fast is the school i went to, Oak Grove High School was a very good school. And as a matter of fact they had sent four guys from their school were professors from pine bluff. And my brother from milwaukee sent me a letter and said theres a guy in the vocational school. You go find him and tell him that my older brother cept you. And i went there and i walked into his office he looked up and said i dont know your name but youre sure one of those jones. And he recognized me and said, oh, yeah you look just like earnest jones. And i started talking and he was telling me all about school and walked around and took me all over campus. He said this is one of my boys, earnest jones boys. He really painted this beautiful picture. They are smart, and i want all you professors to keep your eyes on him. Hes a good student. Dont be putting him over in social studies. Hes good at math, algebra. He came from a high school that had all of that. One guy told me he said you might need to take preliminary courses. He said youre from a small town. I said, yeah. He said what did you have in high school . I said i had algebra. I had trigonometry. I had physics. I had biology, chemistry. He said, man, what kind of school did you go to . I said i had a school that was a very good school. As a matter of fact, the principal imported he hand picked teachers from all around to come to that school. Was it private . No, it was a school, but it was there were four schools in arkansas, and they were built way back in 1831 by the i think they were the its a group out of new york somewhere built these schools way back because i know our school was open in 1929. And the school was built and they had a vision of folks coming because the school was built with dormitories. And there were two all black school districts. Mine was one of them. And the other was arkansas city. So we had unlike a lot of other schools we had books because a lot of the white schools would give old books to the black school, but we had good books and teachers. So i had a good start. Youre describing a personal history that isnt very typical for folks in that time. Yeah. So when i got to pine bluff i was very comfortable and had met somebody and he took me around. And he introduced me to dr. Marshal. And dr. Marshal was a professor on campus and he had another little house right by his house. And asked me well, youre going to live in a dormitory, ive got to live somewhere. And the doctor said put him over there and you will take a liking to this young man. And so we started talking, and hes saying you sure know a lot to be a country boy. These country kids come up and they dont knownothing. We think the city kids no know everything. And so we just start talking. And then he was the one told me he said theres some folks in little rock that are trying to get a civil rights thing started. And they went to smith and they didnt have no luck there because all those kids were city kids and they were going to get put out of school and all that. And he said id like for you to meet those guys. And thats how i met greenwich and bill hansen. And so two days later they came and start talking. So bill said dang, man, youve already done what we tried to do. I said, well, thats how i was raised. And he said this will be a piece of cake for you. But they said they would work in little rock and do some things but when we come to pine bluff theres a lot of segregation here. And here you guys are down here. Yall got all these mcdonalds and all of that and this city is driven by this university here. And thats how i met them. Do you remember more specifically about this group of folks in greenwich and hansen and ones black, ones white. When we met greenwich talked about he had been involved in labor and union groups a lot. When bill hansen talked, he talked about he had been involved in sitins and things like that. But the first thing bill hansen said is we need to organize some students to challenge bill hansens take was im a white boy and i dont need to be leaving. But we need a black person and youve already done all this stuff. He said if you went into one of these White Restaurants and was arrested what would your parents say . They would come up here and come to the jail house and say, james, is this what you want to do, and id say yes. He said well do whatever you need for us to support you and go back home. They talked to me about, you know, if you get involved and stuff, and they talk about dont you ever go through no white doors, no back door. Theres a front door white people go, you go through it, too. There wasnt a whole lot to do, but i shared with them how mama and them rode the bus and i didnt know it, but to me thats just how they were. And i remember brian womack was what we considered the rich white man in willisville. And as i got involved he was talking to mom about you need to go get that boy and he up there doing all this and not running around and blah, blah, blah. They said mama went and jumped in the car with her, made her take her up and told her said i really ought to make you take these clothes to pine bluff. Mr. Womack was a big white guy. He said it was freezing cold and he was sweating so bad because he knew mama had that pistol in her purse. And i told him my mama wouldnt do that. In little rock that was the issue. Everybody was afraid their parent would take them out of school and do all this other and that. Did you have any instinct that what might actually end up being the problem would emerge mainly that youre president with you know, i didnt think that side at all. I went and looked at the hotel that was segregated and i went down there by myself just to check it out. And when i came back when they started talking about we need to protest these places so i said im going to talk to some students. And when i talked to them i told them what my parents were like. But i also said if your parents were going to come up here and jump on you for doing it dont go, dont go. And then doctor her husband was a pripsple at a high school and he told me i went and met with him. He said ive got some Young High School students in my school, townsend high school. The Big High School there for most of the black. But this school with us kind of getting started. He said these kids what you talk about doing they need to get involved with a guy like you. He said theyre smart but they want to be thugs. He said oh, theyre real brave, and they want to be thugs. And he said but i think if they were around you, you would change them. I said you think so. And so i met with him and talked to him about, you know, my parents, what that was like and they liked that. Well, look, what were talking about is going here and it may be very violent, but were going to be a nonviolent group. Oh, no, theres going to be some fighting. Oh, no, oh, no. They hit you in the face, knock you down. Whyd you think that was a good idea, the nonviolence . Well, the way i looked at it was if you could be nonviolent the white people would be very happy to beat you down. But i felt that in spite of that you could overcome it over a time period. I felt if i was beaten and thert kids were scared they would come around. And i think what helped me is i wasnt scared. My knowledge wasnt good enough to feel that i definitely could win doing it right then, but i felt that i could see in white people faces that it was working because i saw a young white girl and young white boy come up and would hit me and stuff and run. And when i would look at them, i saw them crying. But they didnt want folks to see them but i saw them. I said theyre doing something they dont want to be doing. And i saw that. They were told to come up and hit us but that wasnt in their heart. February 1, 63, howd it feel at the end of that day . That was a little scary because we set the first day we tried to go there and it was blocked or something, we couldnt get in. Diane was in town. Whats dianes last name anyway, she was an extremely light skinned black girl. She went down there and wanted to eat because they thought she was white, and when she came down she said, no, its open. And when we went in she said go in at 11 00 for some reason. I think that was a time i guess a lot of people would be in there. And it was a massacre because diane had been through the freedom rides and all that stuff. And her strategy was if theres a lot of people in there it wouldnt hurt very well because there wouldnt be enough room. And she said when they start hitting you to fall to the floor and do all this, fall toward where the people were. So when we did that, all the white folks was in there was also on the floor. They tried to get up and youd scoop in front and theyd fall. So it was kind of fun and a little bit scary. We had a pretty good crowd but that was shortlived because dr. Davis called us in and half of the parents came to pine bluff, too. And they were snatching all those kids off. I think when they finished dr. Davis and the parents, three or four maybe of us was left. I was there, nash, i think joanne stayed. Joanne now is as a matter of fact, joan is a professor at Pine Bluff College and i think she just retired. There was this tall guy, he stayed on. He told us the very next day anybody who went downtown was suspended. The interesting thing about that now, that was kind of different. That was only about four, five of us going. But when we went the next time there were about 12, 15 folks, but they didnt come up the first time. Howd you make your decision to take that hit . Take the expulsion . Youve said a lot already that creates a context for that, but it still must have not been an easy thing. But in my case in my case folks everybody asked me what do your parents think. I said my parents support what im doing. And the tall guy from texicana, he calls hiparents to talk to them and they kind of let him along. This other guy, nash, he was from pine bluff. He stayed there. And that was kind of like the voice of encouragement. Listen to me, and what if we get hurt, i said we are going to get hurt. But this is like a war. And a war where they attack us but there was no jail stuff there. And i said eventually were going to have to go to jail if we continue to do this. So we were a little afraid of the jail. And then we went back there two or three times and i thought the most violent when we went to mcdonalds i think that crowd really meant to hurt us. And i think what helped us was the owner locked us in and turned that gas on. But i think if we had not been locked in the audience i saw on the outside they really had weapons, and i think they would have hurt us real bad. Can you describe that moment a little more . When we were in there, they left and went out and we were still at the counter waiting to be served. Now, the gas was not the natural gas. What kind of gas was that . That fall gas and it burns you and gets in your eyes tear gas . Yeah, that gas. What helped me is my brother troy was in houston. He had talked at home about that gas because people would shoot it sometimes. And he said if the way you have that is the water if youre in a building, a comode put your head in the water, water the towel and all of that. So when they shot that gas i went to the sink and the water was still on, and i said everybody get in the water and we all went in the water. I guess somebody was close by and the water got cut off, but we was surviving pretty good. Who turned it on the police or i guess the owner. And when they came in the back and we was locked in there. Thats how they came about. Fortunately for us i had heard about that and we had water. That calmed people down a little bit. One of the key things in these kinds of moments was there tensions that just couldnt be avoided in those moments in the black community. Typically snood to be the legislator was in session. Black clergy, the traditional naacp elites, the black business community. People have different interests and motives, and can you talk about sort of how the black Community Came down on us very hard. There were two black Business People that supported us. The entire black neighborhood wanted us run out of town. Mr. Brown was a funeral home guy. He was the only one, and the white population got very upset with him because he was wealthy. And he said to us this thing might get out of hand but im going to say this part right here. If yall end up in jail dont worry about it, ill bond everybody out of jail. And thats all he said to us. He was an older guy and his son was about to take over. And he said, dad, you sure you want to do this . His dad said to him, son, if you dont want to do it, get out. Im going to do it. And his son came back and said ill handle it. One was a very wellknown dentist. And of the medical community he was the only one. And he came that evening after it was over with, and he asked was anybody hurt, if anybody get hit in the mouth dont worry about it, ill take care of itats no cost. Now, when you would go towards mcdonalds there were a couple of businesses, a little club. We had to go on the other side. There were no sidewalks over there. These are black businesses, nope, get off the side. Now, one thing that came to our rescue i think sealed the deal is theres this guy named reverend allen. Ooefs the pastor of a large Methodist Church, and i think reverend allen may have been from new york or somewhere and we didnt know who he was and he was disguised in a blue suit. And we were fishing to go to holiday inn maybe. And this guy shows up nice blue suit and we were standing at this holiday inn, and this guy walks up and says, you know, these are students here to get an education. Their parents education. Their parents has worked hard, gave them money to go up here to go to school. Theyve got money to come into your place and pay for that meal, and were all sitting there we had no idea who this guy was, and so this manager, whatever, he came out and said, who are you . Thats what he said. Ive reverend allen. Pastor of whatever church, we said, yes, sir. He discussed does the Methodist Church know youre involved . I aint involved in nothing. I think theyre our future. You need to go youre standing on the premises, just standing here and having a conversation, just take me with you. We all got excited, but it looked like there something being a methodist kind of calmed people away, and they said do you all have a meeting to get together . And we said, yeah. My church door is open, day or night. We said, well, thank you. We went to the church and talked about what happened, because this guy had Police Standing back as if they were going to arrest us. We went to the church, but the next day we came, thats when the kids from towns that wanted to be thugs, and they showed up, about six, seven of them, whoa. We said, you know, this is not about going on this real darkskinned guy, all these guys had nicknames one guy was popo, with you guy was pop mouth. It took me a long time to figure out their real names. He was supposed to be a real thug. He said no, bill and mr. No, were going in, were going down with you on this one. He said when its all over with and things have cooled off, well get our punches in then. I thought, what do you mean . He said, we know how to get back. It might be six months later, we know how to get back. We said, look hire, dont bring of that. He said, no, no, there wont by any of that. They did that, and that was the first arrest. Some of the things happened pretty close in time that are very significant. One is the very modest, but first ever integrations at a restaurant table in pine bluff, but pretty quickly thats when the arrests start. The Police Department switched tactics. You get to the point where youre think, we might be headed towards arrests. I wonder how you maid your calculations because of the implication of jails and so forth. I think there was a real fear, a real moment of that, because when we had the beating and all of that, but that was all outside i think when we talk about the whole taking us down, i think the College People in the crowd was real nerve out, but them young guys, they had been to jail. They were kind of like an asset oh, man, it aint no big thing. Its just crowded and nasty up in there, and were like, what are you all talking about . They said, weve been there before. But i think that calmed peoples nerves a bit, the young guys that had been. When mr. Coleman came by he didnt go to jail, but he was standing across the street. I think when people looked around and saw the faces, even a Long Distance away, it made you feel a bit better. We kind of have a little support, but what going to jail did was amazing to me, is that is when the jail thing is when the old black people came out we was in jail and we had a meeting at reverend allens church. There wasnt no college student, nothing like that, but i was told that church was packed, and there was talk about having to bond us out of all that. Mr. Brown said, you know, is ill go, and they tell me them little old ladies had rolls of money in their bra. Some had it in their shoes, bringing the money to bail us out. I think when that church group that old population, i think that shook the whole city, because after that, we saw a lot more yelling and cursing, and white people started throwing objects, but they werent that close to us. They would be, you youre throwing ought us, the big changes. At first they were knocking you down i think thats had impact. They wouldnt come out to march with us, but they would come to the church. They started going things to the jailhouse, asking people can we bring the kids some food . And at first they said no. I dont know who changed that, but i know reverend allen, some members, when they brought the food down there, they let us out in this big old part where they lock you up, a big old holding cell before they send you way in the back with the fight bars. So they actually let us eat. They had all these big old fat chiefs standing there like they were going to kill somebody, and they let the food come in. That calmed people. Every time when we would go back, we would see a few more people coming, stuff like that. One thing happened that was a little scary is, on campus somebody had said that if we dont stop demonstrating, the football team, the sports team were going to take all their money. I think that was a scare tactic, but man, when we were bonded out of jail, there were a lot of girls and things from pine bluff were coming to see us. Man, those big old Football Players threatening to bust or skulls. That was scary, because i think some of those guys did take that serious. If i lose their scholar ship, im going to kill you myself. That was pretty scary there. How did your case ever get what was the resolution of your legal case, in a narrow legal sense . Our attorney for us back then in pine bluff wily brandon took the big stuff, everything. It was a it was a young real small black guy. Had a law firm. Everybody said, no, no, hes not going to participate. Hes really got a good law but, um, i think way later, maybe bill clinton or somebody appointed him to be a federal judge. A little bitty guy. He walked into church, tons of people came, we just love you. Yeah, right. He came in there and he just walked in and told reverend allen ill handle the case, and just left, like that im not sure what happened to the case. I dont know if it was thrown out or stuff, but the big stuff, the manhandling that was the whole discrimination, civil rights, and had the big case he was appealing it to the federal level. It kind of start calming down, so we went to woolworth again, and what they had done i get they had told all the white people to the no come at a certain time. So we went bain and ate, went bk to the hotel, and the guy told us we were fool they didnt tell me, but i was told later that they told some people to keep our doors open and to keep me off the lawsuit, and keep because if the white people get mad, theyre going to destroy my hotel and all that stuff. Could you tell your people to come here after dark, at night . I dont know if that happened but i know during that time we did go down to the holiday inn. We had a little thing, they let us use the room. I didnt go there to spend the night. So it settled a bit, yeah. Yeah. Did you ever want to make a decision to what would be a decision to take a formal row into the snic, and also before that, did you ever circle back around . Did you ever have any closing conversation or meet again in some later sense, with chancellor davis . No, no, we were bad. We couldnt even go on campus. Not years later . No, no. That first wave of suspension, there were three or four kids who were suspended and stayed once in a while, they went back to school later. They had to apologize, that was his condition. Umhmm. I never went back. My wife was suspended, she never went back the. When were you married . May 16th, 1964. She wasnt in the arrest group, but she was with us at the first one, woolworth. We were arrest ed, she was i a group of that first group, my wife was, and a. I want to ask about a couple thing, about being together with other people doing this intense work. One of your reflections and perspective on being with people in such intense circumstances, the relationships, the human dynamics of that kind of experience, and also the interracial aspect of that in pine bluff, and then in snic arkansas, because of what will come down. The interracial involvement made everything more difficult, on the white side and the black side. On the black side, there was a lot of growing resentment toward the white, because they were being perceived as the part, not black folks from the south, though thats not the case, but thats what they saw. They saw a lot of that through bill hansen. When we would go to the meetings, like we had mass meetings, trying to recruit people in the neighborhood or trying to get something started, we specifically made an effort for me to lecture, because when the whites would, um, try to launch it, it would just kind of die dead, no response. It always would be a thing where the black folk want to hear my answers or that. So that really stalled meetings and effort to strategize, real bad. On the racial side, i think there was a hardcore resentment in the case of bill and ruthy. Interracial marriage right there, i was right there in arkansas, and that was a nono. I think when things were getting quiet sometimes, when whites would see that, it would flare back up. And thats really what generates what generated the thinking is that we got to officially make jim jones the head of this, to get rid of that. Thats too much, because when we were when we were going to protest, there was so much focus on the whites, you really couldnt get through to talk about what were trying to do. Their attitude was, what is with the white boys . They have no problem with them going to a holiday inn and stay, theyre just here to make trouble. Thats how they are perceived it. And when i took charge of it, i told bill, you stay at the office and coordinate stuff. Let us run this thing. That made it the crowd was a lot more comfortable. I think we were growing in numbers when that move was made as well. When you needed to shift into the consistently prominent roles, and the project director title shifted to you, 64, how did hansen were there implications for your working relationship . Your personal relationship . How did that work . No, no, that stayed pretty good. But hansen was ave very aggresse person. I had to sit him down sometimes. The places where were needed to target, the Voters Registration stuff, i made a significant point, forest city, west helena, mariana, those are hardcore conservative hate areas. All that part of arkansas is where all the big plantations was, and i said, we have to be careful, because i think we call them the good old boys, see me and you . I think the shot is going to be fired at you. He didnt want to do none of that, but we and all of us, now, im going, you know. There comes a time, you know, when we plant the seed and got things going, you know, and we got a little group together, but for you to come out in a league capacity there, youre endangering too many people. He never would admit it. He liked that laife. He wouldnt admit it, but you like reading your name and the camera showing the blood on you. I knew when we went to those places, they were going to respond to the color of my skin. They knew they were folks that they didnt like. I thinkhood to do with miss clay, she had a big old house, and then she had a sister, a cousin who was a principal. I think she had that the profession at folks around her. Its such a huge base. That part of arkansas is 90 black, and the voting over here is zero, so i think that issue was easier that cracking the restaurants and going to the jail. But no, no, no, there were some issues there. I think the issue had to do with bill didnt want to relinquish his role. We got through it, but we had to get him to say, no, stay here. We had to do it that way. Yeah. I said to ask more about the voting work and the program in the delta, but did you go to atlanta occasionally . Did folks come from atlanta to sncc . How did the National Relationship work out . Most of it is i would take trips down there, and they would have those we called coordinating meetings thats where all the different states involved, the sncc people there, we would Exchange Thoughts and ideas. What are you doing here . How did you deal with that . I got a good feel for it. One of the things i felt differently about was, i thought i had a better feel for people in arkansas because i had a farm back group, somewhere where the farm connected. When i got to atlanta, would go down there, all them boys were big city boys, and they would just be sitting up articulating in order to say, were going to go down the road to a store, it would take them three hours, because they had these educated kids. They were articulating what they know. I would be sitting there going, what are you all doing . It was i saw a lot of showing off their education and not a good feel for the neighborhood. That never was a part of it. When they when they would ask me to make comments, well, i would talk very specific about the level of folks i was dealing with, and the issue with that, and i dont think thats going to happen, blah, blah, blah. So old jim foreman told me one time, he said, jones, what you are doing is a real direct connection to the community thats a wonderful thing he asked me, do you want do you want us to send summer people . I said not really, but what i would like to do is, there is a group a great singing group, send that group up here to one of those meetings i have, because i have a lot of people and theyre church folk. They would love that. I said, lets slowly graduate, but those guys, you know, when they came and saw that big crowd, all they wanted to do is sing, have a good time and went on back. What i was doing is asking people to put your shoes on, lets go knock on some stories, try to get people to vote. I also told ms. Clay, we need some folks to run for something, but they need to be educated, highly respected. She told me they had a plant in forest city, that guy over there, hes been promoted to manager. Lets run him. We did, but it wasnt like the mayor or nothing, but it was a position. He won and folks are like, i never thought it was going to happen. I said, you do have to make an effort to make it happen. He did real well. Thats the stuff we need to do, as well as, you know, we dont have to go into a White Restaurant to eat. So if somebody wants to do that, they can so thats the direction i went. Public accommodations, then the whole Voter Registration, and starting to run people in microcampaigns. And education, too. You were talking about the schools question, too. Umhmm. Ive seen the number for what the sncc program accomplished in pretty darn short order, 24 months, less than that, and more signed up despite a poll tax. Theres the 66 governors outcome that was a curious thing. Umhmm. Were rolling after a short break for equipment. We were starting to talk about the program and getting people into races, let me turn it over to you. Everyone in some cases folks fell short in vision, there were individuals where public accommodation was all that they had in their head. Unless you integrate or desegregates and you can go into town and get your room, for me that finish but we had folks looking Long Distance. Lets go to chicago and protest. Thats an example because that was the only focus they had. There were folks in arkansas, i said, no, this population needs to access and start running candidates. That was a new piece to it but some folk were stuck and couldnt get off of that. Yeah. Describe your experience across a representative week doing Voter Registration work in the delta, fall of 63, early 64. What happens to in that week . Who do you see . Whats it like . How does it feel . My approach to it is is, in ever community theres that moment, and in most cases it was women. Delia said, young man, when you go into a neighborhood for the first time, if theres a black barbershop there, go in there. I said, okay. And you ask for a specific type people. Im looking for somebody who is interested in politics or knows some good people that could run for office, or they have a lot of influence. He says those guys in the barbershop know that stuff. So when i went to forest city, i took that advice. I introduced myself. I didnt say i was sncc. I said im part of a program and were trying to encourage black folks to vote more and even better than that, we would like to see more black folks run for office. When i said that, the first thing came, all three of them said the same thing, you need to go talk to mrs. Clay. Who is mrs. Clay . She owns the funeral home. Her husband died, but she made it an even bigger funeral home. I had a volkswagen, and they said come on, follow me. They actually introduced me to her. She was raring to go. Young man, im glad to see you. Its long overdue. She was all excited. She said, i told my sister, shes a principal over there, we talk all the time, she called her on the phone and dialed up, she said, how do you want to do it . I said, first of all, i need a place to stay, probably two, three days. See the house right there, right there . Right there, all of my houses, which one do you want . I said, man, just a place to sleep. Her sister came over and she told about this preacher, she said hes very aggressive, but hes by himself. I said, we need to have a meeting, and those two women said, would el do the calling. You just go on over there. I dont know who all they called, but they had a church packed that night. Thats when this guys name came up. He was there. He said, you know everybody, and all the working folks here, if all of them just vote for him, hes going to win. Thats how they got started. That seat was there, but it was just sitting still. Thats when i started i said, i made a point to go back there later on, i said, i followed your advice. She said, in every community, there is that type of person. Then when i went to other places, you know, i always looked for that type. I got to west helena, that little lady over there i could think of their names anymore she had a store. I walked in, introduced myself, said what i was doing, im trying to encourage people to vote. She said i ran two years ago, but i didnt have no votes. I would love to work with us. She said, park your car. We took off. So i dont know if she said, im getting kind of old right now, but my son just finished college out of the pine bluff. Im going to talk to him about running. She was able to rally those type of meetings. A few years later, after i had gone, i learned there was a lot more elected folks you know, that caught on and took off. I said, well, by then when i went back through there, i met whats this guy . Hes an attorney in little rock, whats his name . I chatted with him. He said, you have some good things going on. He worked with they had a Health Clinic in mariana. Bill clinton appointed him, i understand, as a federal judge. Whats that guys name . Shoot. It would come to me. He says, a lot of good things are going on in east arkansas. I stayed in that circle until i left. I didnt want to be a combination. I thought we had gotten past that. What was your mood . Sense of gains not met . How were you feeling from the fall of 63 on . I felt good, because i have a personality of incredible tolerance. When i go out to do things and folks dont participate or we dont get it done, i dont get disgusted, i dont get mad, i just say to myself, well, we cant win them all. Ive always been that type of person, but i also learned is my personality has helped me a lot. I dont get mad with folks. I dont pick and choose. I can take it, you dog me, it doesnt bother me at all. I dont see it as a failure. Sometimes i say i wish we could have gotten a bigger roll of people participating, about but it doesnt bother me that we didnt. Im very realistic about things i have never put my eyes on when i look at doing things, i work hard and very diligent, but if its if 15 people step up and really work at getting it done, some folks its just like in church. Some folks you can get a lot done, but some folks thinking if cant get 75 people to help you, its a failure. I said, no, 75 people would be a problem for you, so lets get a small group with high energy ready to go. Thats the way ive always worked. I think because ive i cant recruit people and identify, folks took off and did a lot of things. I remember i was in georgia, and i went to a little what was that town called . I went down to this town sit went to this town and there was a little town where they had a little fact tire and it had left town, and everybody was unemployed. So when i got there, i said, well, i met with a schoolteacher, a very prominent woman in their neighborhood. I said, well, i would like to have a little meeting. She said, i can get the people to come out, and when they all came out to the meeting it was a big meeting, there was this big warehouse sitting th e there. Wow, its a big warehouse, and it was shut down. I said, well, what would any shots about what you would like to do . Everybody in this building this these big thoughts of like building a highrise building, you know, all kinds of wild stuff. I said, can i make a comment on something i see with my eyes . She said, yes, go ahead. I said, if a plan comes here and yall get a chance to go to work, i said, i see so many babies, so many kids, i dont think nobody in this room could go to work. They all started laughing and they said, mr. Jones, youre right. For you to go to work, you have to have someone leave. Youve got five, six kids . I said, one thing i would suggest is yall need to consider a nursery to keep kids. That town is saturated with kids, five, six kids, and this lady said, my brother in that big warehouse, also brothers warehouse. My brother has a big warehouse, but she said he is such a hustler, he aint going to let you have that. I said, what kind of hustle . She said, hes a bigtime gambler, he loves money. He aint going to do nothing. Let me i would like to meet him. She says, ill call him. So he came to the meeting, 55, maybe 60 years old. I said, sir . Ord in order for this town to going to work they couldnt go to work with kids. If we could build a nursing home here for these kids to be taken care of, i think a lot of most of them women could find work. He said, you think so . I said, i think so, because i already had talked to this big roberts someplace, a big military they were hiring a lot of people. And thats your warehouse. He said, yeah. I said, that big warehouse could be turned into what are you going to do with it . I own it. Im not going to do anything with it. I said, we could turn that big warehouse into one heck of a nursery, and these folks would have a place to keep these kids and they could go to work he said, well, mr. Jones, if you could get it renewed it would need a lot of work on it, ill give it to the group. He said, i will give it to the group. Thats what he said. I said, ladies, we got work to do. They said, who do we got to do . I said me and all yall are going over there, and wire going to area that he whole house on you, tear that wall down and put all that board on the street. Were going to call the city and tell them to come pick it up. I said, yall ready to do that . Youre going to make us do that . I said, yes, maam, every woman in town. They showed up, and the thing that was so beautiful about this. When the it was a big lumber company in this next town. This guy had taken some lumber somewhere. He came by, and all these women are pow, pow. He said, come here, sir. Youre the only man i see. Are you in charge of this . I said, yes, sir. I told those women we want to tear down this place, rip it on the inside, weve got to turn it into a nursery, so all these women with all these babies can go to work. That guy said he said down there at the, what some robert, but its a big navy basis or something there. He said, man, they would love the women to come in. Theyre way short. He said, you got any money to i said, no, were just sweat and blood. He said, let me go talk to my boss. Warner roberts, yeah, thats the name of the place. This guy went down there, and theres about five that came back, and he said, you know what . I got some good news. He said if them women have to do all that building, he told us, all that lumber out there, been a little rained on, but its still good. You just take it up there. Man, them women built that thing, the guy who owned it, he came up there and said, man, are you god sent . You aint jesus christ, are you . You got those women to do all that work. I said, theyre doing it for themselves. We got this huge man, that thing was about two blocks, three blocks inside. So one lady said, cant you get federal money. I said, let me tell you about that, you dont want that. If we get federal money for that, the federal government will make you put square feet per child. You wont get a third of them in that building, but if youre private like that, you can stack them in like saturdrdines, and become the group that takes care of these babies, and you all that get the jobs, you give them a few dollars to take care of the kids. Just like that, they took off. Long after i left, i would get cards, we would love to see you come back and visit. Thats been years ago. You know, so its just just a little gift on that side, seeing things and believe that folks can do it pretty good themselves. Lets talk about it a bit as we talk about our last section, to talks about some of the reasons that were happening in sncc nationally, how they reverberated and how you made your transition over. We talked about early in 64 directorship passes formally to your hands. Other whites were coming in at that time, so i think the sncc staff, 6465ish would have been about eight people at times. Umhmm. Four black, four white. The tensions are being more felt on the racial leadership of the question. 65s a pretty hot summer nationally for riots and all. The whole question of the integrationist model is being challenged. We talked about difficulties on the economic front. Like i said earlier, some peoples vision went to public accommodation, how do you finally get to the Economic Justice issue. With all of that as a prelude, im interested in your perspective on that through 6465 period how those questions played out inside your life in sncc in arkansas, and how you the circumstances that led to your move away. Well, my moving away was what i saw and what i felt was, the resources and the use of people was dwindling. A lot of the folks who had the energy was drifting to going to work, make a living. People were getting older. The sncc group was hot energy, educated, the whole movement was a fun thing. A lot of folks was not recognizing were getting older, becoming family folks, resources are dwindling, and that was a natural thing to me. But a the lo of white kids who came down wanted that to be a lifetime of situation. What we were dealing with was not lifetime. A lot of the kids we worked with, saw do wonderful things in sncc and all of that, they took had hit College Level and got on. When me and my wife and i said this to bill hansen, look, guys we have done a pretty good job. Were going to ruin it in we keep stretching it and stretching it and we aint doing nothing. Theres no means of income, and thats when folks start peeling off, because i think the black panthers and all that, they saw that movement dwindling, too. They were trying to rebuild them some new things i think to me, it went as far as its capabilities, and we had to recognize that we got older and needed jobs to support families and we had seen black elected officials come in, i thought that was vip successful, but you know there still are people who think we still should be doing that. No, its not the same, this does not fit, i think i think we did pretty good fueling for growth i dont think it could be a lifetime instrument for that. You were in atlanta, but and busy, im sure traveling quite a bit but comes in, and one last thing i said to ask about, maybe two things, left behind or things will happen. One is greenwich feels compelled to basically maic a statement challenging the abandonment of the integrationist model, so comes to arkansas and has things to say. So i dont know if you watched that the other thing is the emergence in little rock, anyway, of bobby brown, the black youth united, that bumped up against that at all . I didnt bump into it, but i heard about it and knew what was taking place. The way i perceive that is that was going going to be a very small faction and very satisfying to brown and very satisfied as to tokely. But i dont think they were focusing on anything that was going to be helpful to people. And both of those guys always way back . The early days of sncc wanted to be the top gun, but they didnt have an audience. Thats what it is, and thats nothing else. I remember a long time ago stokley was trying to carve out him a group, because he wanted to be at the next malcolm x. He wasnt focused on making situations better. He just wanted, you know, that star in his hat. I never was interested in that. I just wanted to try to make a difference the best you can, but try to go out there and carve you a little spot, to me thats a waste of time. Thats not going anywhere, you know. It gets you a lot of media, all this stuff, but its nothing else, i dont think. I was in opportunity and knew about all of that, but, no e. When i was when i went to sha sharecroppers, there are folks who feel they deserve being paid a lot of money. No identification what for, but just to do it. What my assignment was as sharecroppers, was to go identify in virginia, georgia, florida, south carolina, Small Farmers, and i did not deal with the inside of that mechanism. I told them, i think there are some opportunities for them to sell their product and make some money. Thats the end i worked on. I worked with National Chain stores and the big chain stores. I learned in that circle most of the stores was looking for black farmers, Small Farmers product, closer, fresher, a lot cheaper because of the distance, and that worked fine that was kind of easy, but what has dismiss them blocked is they were talking about the money the big farmers was making, which was not always true, and shipping it all over the country. You need a lot of volume. They werent looking over the fact that i got five acres of tomatoes that i can harvest four times, and i can sent it right here to krogers and krogers will buy it, which is an excellent marketing strategy. They were looking past that. Thats the kind of stuff i worked with, and they had done well. Some of them ended, but that was because the older population who was farming children didnt want to farm and headed to new york. So it was time to close that project down. Some folks dont recognize that. You have to be straight with them, you have nobody to run the farm anymore. Dont sell your property. Please dont sell it, because in five or ten years, right here is probably going to be the home of condos, so youll make plenty of money. So thats the side i worked on. You mentioned early are earlier on, talking about yourself, you said youre a realist, a measured sense of outcomes. Maybe theres another way to do it, with institutional racism, those kind of builtin headways, maybe the integrationist model we had in mind isnt quite the right model . Any second thoughts on that . I never did see it like a lot of guys did, that the integration thing was the model to go with. What i did see, though. Is a lot of the white kids who came in and played roles i looked very closely at. Some had very, very good contacts. Parents in big circles, wealthy, and what i what i zeroed in on give us some contacts in the northeast, ohio, where we can possibly do some things, because some of the folks in the movement saw when the whites came in, they thought they saw money, and money to be brought and put in the pot. I always saw them as potential great contacts to make better for example, in arkansas the one different i said, look, we got these kids. Why dont we like we had some kids from boston, new york and d. C. Why dont we go to these kids that are pretty smart. Do you in your circle have contact with school that we can get scholarship. Thats how i use them. I never had this dream to have a lot of people did. And i think my background helped me to stay grounded. My parents did well, but i started grinding. We just have this big falling out of the sky. But i think that helped me. I think some of the Movement People did have that kind of grounded background and a lot of that stuff with theory. And sometimes those theories were dependent on a government to do a lot of stuff. But the folks were working with werent red duh day for that. And i think in terms of slow things, i saw slow development. I saw a lot of things that didnt happen. I saw things like emphasis to try to get more nurses and blacks in nursing, small hospitals in smaller towns and trying to recruit doctors to come in and spend time. That didnt happen. I was ep hoping that kind of stuff would have made huge difference because you take eastern arkansas or to memphis to the big cities and i looked a at that, but that didnt fly. When it did fly, it wasnt something that brought me down. Final thoughts . I guess my final thought is my being involve d was a wonderful thing. I saw a lot of growth in people. I saw a lot of growth in young folks who excelled and went on. I think some people see that because they did well and moved on with disappointment as opposed to staying. The geographical change and cant blame people for that. I felt real good years later that i did pretty good with putting people together on the market end and Small Farmers. I think i feel good about when i left i stayed in the rural area. And if you look at my resume, i have job i have had put me in touch with working with a lot of people. Thats been the story of my life. Just loved it. Probably could have been several. I wish the 50,000 black farmers we had identified in the east and the south and the far south could have been given some payment toward the government not allowing them to boar row money and all that. But a lot of those folks when a decision was made to recognize them, 95 of those folks were dead and gone. That level is who should have been a beneficiary. Now their sons and daughters are in chicago and detroit and everywhere else. And if there is a little bit of compensation given, it needs to be very carefully done. I would not be real excited about john doe in chicago now is 37 years old and does not even know who his granddaddy was that farmed 75 years ago. I dont think that compensate who is did the hard work. But i have been very pleased with the direction i went in life. I have been close to agriculture, small town and thats what i love doing. Weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend. Tonight a look at the Civil Rights Movement. On september 2nd, 1963, nbc news broadcast a threehour Prime Minister on the status of the Civil Rights Movement called the American Revolution of 63. Reporting from 75 locations throughout the United States it includes appearances by wellknown activists, scenes from civil rights events and comments from integration opponents. Enb joy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan 3. Youre watching American History tv, every weekend on cspan 3, explore our nations past. Cspan 3, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Up next an oral history interview with gloria grin knelt, to took part in the sitin protest. This interview is part of a project on the Civil Rights Movement initiated by congress in 2009 conduct ed by the Smithsonian National museum of history and culture and the Southern Oral History Program at the university of North Carolina chapel hill. Ill go back to my grandparents, if i may. Because in a way, it was a civil rights type activity. These are stories that were told to me. And i asked my cuss b aboand he